11/11/2012 Sunday Politics North West

In the North West: poll tax Mark 2. A warning that reforms to council

tax benefit could prompt a backlash and local councils say it will hit

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2144 seconds

Hello. Coming up in the North West. 22 years after the poll tax riots,

and benefit reform that some say could be as volatile. We are a fair

and decent society. I think we will see a backlash as the public

realises what is happening with these changes. My guests are to

work the big names in local government in the region. Geoff

Driver is Conservative leader of Lancashire County Council and

Labour's Sir Richard Leese leads Manchester City Council. You what

trying to make ends meet. As we head to the next year of budgets,

Sir Richard Leese, How's it going? It will be difficult. The cuts for

Manchester are too fast and not fair. We had to take 25% of the

Budget. We are looking at another 15%. We will not find out how much

we have to cut until six weeks before we have to make decisions.

It will be a one-year settlement with no opportunity to plan for the

future. The way we are being treated is very bad. It will

reflect on services. As difficult for you? It is difficult. It is

going to be tough. When we get the -- got the comprehensive spending

review we did a three-year budget and that helped because we have

made the changes in a considered and better way. We are probably not

in a bad place. As Richard said, it will depend on the announcement.

And we will talk about council tax benefits later. The recent conflict

in Afghanistan and Iraq have increased the poignancy of

Remembrance Day. What duty do we owe to those injured by conflict?

The Military Veterans Service is unique in the region, helping 600

people in its first year. As the NHS is reorganised, it is not clear

it will be funded again next year. It is the time of year when

whatever the political allegiance, we pay respects to those who

dedicate their bodies and minds to serve Britain. Terry is one of 600

veterans to have used the mental help support group Military

Veterans Service. He was deeply affected after leading a patrol

ambushed in Northern Ireland and said Helen pulled him out of the

darkness. She took the brick wall down brick by brick. That sounds

silly, but she sought to put her hands inside me and rearrange

everything in my head. The service is now fighting for its own

survival. If the NHS is reorganise, the body that commission the

service is about to disappear and be replaced by 33 clusters of GPs.

They are still finding their own feet and are not ready to say where

they will spend. The service support service personnel in the

North West and provides crucial support. As things change, nobody

is committed to future funding. This service is needed.

Government say they are confident that new commissioning groups will

make the right decisions. That is not a guarantee for veterans such

as Terry. I went for almost 40 years saying I had no problem.

Until it happens. And it happened. I needed somebody to talk to.

said it took 15 sessions to field he was making progress. In 15 weeks

the service could be closing its doors.

The this is part of a wider series of changes, our other services such

as Honourable? -- are they vulnerable? A lot of services will

automatically roll over. Do not panic. The problem is for a service

like this which is a pilot. Instead of seeking funding from one

organisation, it has to go to 33, which is complicated. With changes

around the corner, it had -- has to happen by April. They are uncertain

about the future. One about the specific service for veterans?

Department of Health said they will invest �1.8 million every year in

mental health services for veterans, but it does not guarantee the

specific service. They have spoken to some of the biggest

commissionaires and they are confident they want to maintain the

service. Sir Richard Leese, how concerned

are you when you hear those reports? Very concerned. If I add

that to other reports, with public health been transferred to local

authorities, it looks like we will have more contracts transferred at

money transferred and so there are a lot of services, like the one we

heard about, which will be vulnerable. Every time you get rid

of a service, it will be a service to somebody. That is the case. It

is Remembrance Sunday. We have had recent conflicts in Iraq and

Afghanistan, bringing it home to us, the importance services these

people provide for everyone. We owe it to them. We ought to have

arrangements that allow us to maintain a key service. Geoff

Driver, there are lots of soldiers based in Lancashire. We have

reported on the Duke of Lancaster's regiment and their homecoming a

couple of years ago. When you hear about this, I think you have a

service yourself that Lancashire County Council runs. We do. It is

the uncertainty that is the concern. They are vital services to very

vulnerable people. We want that uncertainty cleared up quickly. We

do have our own service that we are introducing. We set �3 million

aside to get veterans to go into schools, to mentor young people who

might go off the rails. That is a benefit to children who might

become not to be in education, employment or training. It was part

of the three-year budget. Because we did it that way, currently we

can put news services in to the tune of �50 million. This is �3

million of it, to employee veterans and put them into schools. In this

year, we have two pilot. We hope to run it across the county next year.

Perhaps that is something you could consider? We will look at that.

have made changes to the housing policies so that we are better able

to house veterans when they come out of service. We are looking at

ways we can support veterans. you discovered extra pressures in

terms of the extra veterans? What changes is the number of younger

people who are veterans. That makes a difference because they are

people who will have most of their life ahead of them. That makes a

difference to planning to support them.

Next April, �500 million is being cut from the council tax benefit

budget, about 10% of the total. The responsibility of making up the

shortfall will be down to local councils and every claimant will

probably have to pay something, if they are of working age. The man

responsible for an infamous tax is warning of danger.

March 31st, 1990, the eve of the introduction of the community

charge. Anti-poll tax campaigners demonstrated in London when

violence broke out. A senior member of the Margaret Thatcher government,

Lord Jenkin, told the BBC he is not proud of dreaming up the poll tax.

He christened the reduction in funding available for council tax

benefit, poll tax two. He said the same mistakes are being repeated

and he warns of a backlash. That is also echoed by a senior member of a

northern council. We are a fair and decent society and I think we will

see a backlash as the public realises what is happening. Alan

Crombie cares for his ten-year-old daughter. His family is dependent

on benefits, including council tax benefit. He is worried his finances

will be stretched to breaking point if he loses it. I am scared we will

be hit. If they do not ask people to pay a percentage towards council

tax, they will have to find the money from another budget, which

could affect us, those with children with a disability.

Services could be cut and have any impact on our lives. There could be

challenging times ahead for thousands of families across the

North West. What about the local authorities? Under the new system,

Liverpool City Council will lose �6.2 million, 10% of its annual �62

million council tax benefit budget. We can either pass the cuts to the

householder has, asking every household on benefit to pay

something. Secondly, we could make cuts elsewhere in the council,

which would affect many of the same households, thirdly, we could have

a combination of the two. The majority of responses so far have

supported passing the cuts down to the council tax benefit recipients.

It is predicted that the new system will be unwieldy with councils

chasing the least well-off for small amounts of money. It will

make the system more complicated, not less. It may well end up with

different systems across different parts of the country. Based on this

year, Preston City Council said it Some groups are protected from the

cuts. The 25% discount for households with one adult will

continue and councils are barred from reducing council tax benefit

for pensioners. The idea of protecting pensioners is causing a

headache here in Ribble Valley. More than half the people claim the

benefit here are on a pension. It does not leave the council with

room for manoeuvre. They consider reducing the shortfall by using

income from council tax taken from second homes. But the Government

has come up with a possible alternative. We understand the

Government has another scheme, to offer transitional relief, A Grant,

to assist authorities like us. We would bid for this. It would help

us to give us a breathing space to look at other ways of dealing with

this. What would you say to politicians bring in this plan in?

Come and live in our place for a week, without TV cameras, come and

live and see what we have to live with day-in, day-out. Live what we

have to live on in the middle of the winter. You debate whether to

put the heating on. You have to find this money to pay for the

council tax. Earlier this week I spoke to the

local government minister and asked him why the Government is reducing

council tax support. The benefit has doubled over their last

government. The Government took a decision to say that what we do

with local authorities is by giving them local power, giving them

discretion, is that they can come up with effective schemes that are

best for their residents. Effectively, you are saying we will

give you less money to deal with the same problem, but now it is

your problem. The reason the Department put �100 million into

this is that we are putting money up front. Local authorities will

get the money if they want it next March. Over the course of the year,

they can put in place what programmes they have to put people

into work and find savings from elsewhere and as they go for what

they can run the scheme. If there is local growth, they will have

benefit from that. If you take Manchester, they have decided that

everybody for the first time will have to pay at least 15% of their

council tax bill. If you are on a low income, that will hit you hard.

It is a shame. The Government is saying they will put in support so

that nobody will pay more than 8.5 at most. There is an opportunity to

look after people in their community and help them back into

work. It is their decision on what scheme to run. Whether they take

advantage of the scheme of money offered by central government.

this is perceived as being unfair and more people are paying this tax,

you have a poll tax situation perhaps. Local authorities should

do what they should do, looking after local communities. It would

be horrendous if they started playing politics. But you are a one

cutting back, by 10% of what they need. We have a plan and a benefit

system that has doubled over the last government. That has to be got

under control. Sir Richard Leese, does it remain the case that

Manchester City Council, people paying council tax, will pay a

minimum of 15%? The consultation is for a maximum of 15%. We will

consider the outcome of the consultation. What do you mean by a

maximum? Of the council tax bill, people currently entitled to 100%

would not have to pay more than 15% of that bill. That remains the plan.

We have looked at the transitional scheme. It is for one year only. As

far as we can see it would cost us �2 million to get the �1 million

from government. That is because in order to get down to the 8.5% mark,

�1 million will not do it. It would need another �2 million at -- on

top of that. Could you take the money to bring it down whatever per

cent? It is 8.5% or nothing. We do not get anything unless we bring it

down to 8.5%. Liverpool City Council said to do that it means

cutting other services. ministers said it is a shame that

Manchester City Council is not doing more to help people. It is a

shame the Government is taking the money away. They are cutting this

money. They talk about bringing down the benefits bill. That is

going up at the moment under this government. They talk about getting

people into work. Where is the growth being generated to create

jobs? The Government is not creating growth. Benefit cuts are

popular. Opinion polls say so. I wonder that if in 12 months when we

see working families losing their houses, and we see carers not able

to feed their children, we will see lots of examples, whether they will

be so popular then. Geoff Driver, the main thrust of that is that the

changes are not fair. That is the argument. I think it is important

to remember, putting it into perspective, about the way council

tax has risen and there for the benefit has risen and something

needs to be done. My concern is that the danger is it will impact

too much on the most vulnerable. What we are doing, we do not

collect the council tax, we have a precept on the District Council,

and so we are not consulting on a methodology to get over this

problem. What we are doing is trying in advance to prepare to

protect the most vulnerable in the way that they might be affected.

The first thing we can do is to minimise the actual council tax

increase and in the last three years we have frozen council tax.

It is an open secret we will freeze it again. The way to do that is to

maximise the benefits that Lancashire gets. Do you think the

changes are fair? It is not a question of whether they are fair,

it is a question that they are a fact. We are trying to minimise the

impact on the most vulnerable. We are making sure the most vulnerable

get the maximum benefit and we have a very good welfare right set-up.

Also, we are working with district councils to make sure that

everybody entitled to a free school meal gets it. There are measures

you can take to mitigate. Government is cutting advice

services and so the ability to support the most vulnerable and

give them advice is being cut. This is a factor and as local councils

we have to deal with those and to protect the most vulnerable. You

asked if it was fair and the answer is no. What about the issue that we

have to get the deficit down. have to get it down, but getting

the deficit down in a way that hits the most vulnerable people in this

country and does nothing to promote growth and create jobs, that will

not give us a solution. I never hear the alternative plans. An

example might be to put up council tax for those who can afford it.

There are a lot of alternative plans. A more important than would

be to invest in infrastructure and growth so that when we do create

jobs, in the way other countries have been doing. In it is a problem.

In terms of advice centres and making sure people claim the right

benefit, we have tried to make sure that is our priority. Replacing it

with our own funds. It will be difficult but it is up to local-

authority leaders to minimise the impact on the most lovable. It is

time for the rest of the week's news.

The Conservative Party says there will be an investigation into

claims the former Chester MP Sir Peter Morrison was involved in

child abuse. He visited her home in Wales at centre of allegations that

all time before he died -- a children's home. Wind farms are to

be built in Cheshire and residents oppose the scheme. Those behind it

say it will cut emissions. Blighted by poverty and drink and drug

problems, in Blackpool -- Blackburn councillor asks to tackle the

problem. Aim Rome any gypsy family threatened with eviction is taking

Tory councils to the High Court -- remedy gypsy. They have lived on a

green-belt site for four years but the council said they are harming

their land. And the famous monkey puzzle tree has been felled. Park

officials said it did not need part of the original design.

And a reminder that elections are taking place this Thursday. There

is a by-election for the parliamentary seat of Manchester

Central and on the same day we have the elections for Police and Crime

Commissioners across the region. You will be able to here overnight

results of the by-election on BBC Radio Manchester on Friday morning

and in breakfast bulletins on BBC One. And local radio stations and

TV news programmes will have more on the police elections and we

might be speaking to one of the winners here next week. It will be

super Thursday. I used super excited? November 15th is not the

best time to have an election. These are elections are important.

People need to turn out and vote. And what about your sense in terms

of people being interested? They are important. It is not the best

time to have an election. The parties have tried to persuade

people to avail themselves of the postal vote keep voting up. It is