17/02/2013 Sunday Politics North West

In the North West: Power to the People - why these

Lancashire voters are summoning the winds of change at the town hall.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2128 seconds

They want a referendum on how Hello. Coming up in the North West:

power to the people - why these locals are trying to summon the

winds of change at the Town Hall. When we are not allowed to debate

it and only those seven that make that decision, that is not

democratic. To discuss local democracy and the rest of the news,

one of Labour's longest serving MPs said Gerald Kaufman. And David

Morris the Conservative MP for Morecambe and Lunesdale. Let's

start with a serving of horsemeat because the food scandal escalated

on Friday. 47 schools in Lancashire have accidentally served horsemeat

in cottage pie. How concerned are you buy it back, David? I am

appalled. Thankfully we have got an F S A standard laboratory here they

can test and find out what is going on. It is 10 years since the last

Test have taken place at a. I know the head of education is working on

this. It is a very recent development, but something clearly

should be done. The it is 47 schools, trace elements of

horsemeat but could this have been going on for a long time? It is

evident it has been. It is appalling that it is going on in

our schools. There is no health risks issues at this moment in time,

however, it should not be happening. Sir Gerald, is this the most

serious development now? It is extraordinarily serious that

children whose diet will decide what they are physically, right

through to adulthood, are being infected in some cases quite likely

as a result of the Medical inadequacies of the meat. It is a

very important episode because it tells us important things about our

society. On the one hand... There were no health implications? Their

wrath. It is conceivable, nobody knows for show, but it is

conceivable that some of the horse meat may have been effected. That

is what the press is reporting the possibility of. The horsemeat

scandal started in Ireland, cross into Europe and has embroiled one

of our most famous sporting arenas. Operations at an abattoir in

Todmorden were suspended. It also emerged that the same abattoir had

a contract with Aintree to remove the carcasses of some horses put

down there. The racecourse as a passport system and close liaison

with licensees means carcasses will not enter the food chain but some

say stricter safeguards are needed. The Iraq 75 passport issuing

organisations in the UK. It is a system that is open to widespread

abuse. It needs further enforcement and so the whole system needs a

radical change because at the moment it is not working. But as

the scandal gallops on, when it curve the public appetite for cheap

meat? 1819 and famine made worse by laws

protecting local landowners against competition from cheaper foreign

grain leads to the Peter Newman just -- massacre. By the middle of

the century, Robert Peel had scrapped the Corn Laws paving the

way for affordable food. Now, could that appetite for a cheap meal lie

behind the scandal? It would be good if customers started to

realise they are good quality food costs and sometimes the costs are

being driven down. Operation is at the Peter Boddy slaughterhouse was

stopped this week. The owners deny any wrongdoing but at the local

markets some customers' sake the developments have affected their

shopping choices. I do not trust it now. You do not know what you're

getting. If you buy from your local butcher, you are more confident.

Farmers like Bill Mellor feared the whole supply chain of British beef

has been undermined leading to unprecedented demand for meat from

independent butchers, who can prove where it has come from. When it

first started we thought, what is happening now? Will it put people

off need? I supply a small butcher. It is trading at -- its trade in

beef burgers has sought. By it that comes at a cost at Haymarket

stripped to the bare bones. George Osborne did not fancy this ready

meal and expose success of the girls -- governments have that the

appetite to maintain standards. The inspection work force of the FISA

has almost halved. The government has been cutting inspections, the

meat inspection has been cut and trading standards have been cut.

This is a rather nasty illustration of what happens when an industry

thinks it is not being audited. The the FSA has promised a relentless

investigation by the European Commission said more testing is

needed. Meanwhile, local meat producers are hoping the scandal

will change our shopping habits for good.

We are joined by Alistair Mackintosh a beef farmer from

Cumbria. What is the problem here, why is forced me getting into our

meals? As far as I am concerned, I am proud that the product I produce

my produce to the high standards. We have a track assurance scheme

that we had here to and but it is important that that is recognised.

The problem we have now is that there must be some sort of illegal

activity I would suggest that is allowing this product to compromise

the high quality that we produce. Whereabouts is it happening? Why is

a horse meat turning up in Allen- Mills? It is not for me to justify

what processes or what is happening further down the chain. As far as I

am concerned, we are not responsible for this. I am not

suggesting you are. As far as I am concerned, the supply chain has let

us down. It has led the consumer down, it as let us farmers down and

within that supply chain Ferrar of this leak some activities going on

which was to cheapen the end product. That has been the

incentive there to make more money. That is the issue, the drive to get

cheaper food? What we all recognise a period of austerity and I am not

going to justify what has gone on. I would urge consumers and

retailers and processors to actually buy the British product

first, be very focused on our assurance schemes and I would

encourage them to buy British. Gerald, who is at fault here? Why

is a horse meat turning up in our food? Thereof two elements - one is

avarice, people seeking to make a fast Park and not being scrupulous

in the way that they make the fast Bach and that is being exposed a

day by day. Secondly, poverty. People are to a very considerable

proportion now inadequately recompensed for their work if they

have jobs at all. They want to feed their families and their children a

very obvious way of making somebody feel full is to feed him or her

junk food. A has there been too many cuts to the various

inspectorate's? That is a problem as well. That started under label

from -- Labour. I am not talking about it as a party political issue.

I am talking about it as a social and health issue and that means

that they risk far too much junk food being consumed in this country,

which quite apart from the injection of course me that we have

now learned a great deal about, means obesity is fed as well

because Lutz parts of the junk food are carbohydrates and it is a

social issue. It is an issue of inspection. The European Community

was basically founded to subsidised French farmers. Let's bring David

Morris in because Sir Gerald says this is not a party political issue

but There are a lot of people thinking the Government should sort

this out. This is above politics. This is about trying to sort out

our food chain, where things are where, what has gone wrong.

whose job is it to sort it out? legislation is already in place, it

is just how it will be implemented. There is evidence of illegal

trading going on. The whole thing is a mess. It needs sorting out and

politicians can only do their bit. It has to go down to the supply

chain, all the way through the whole system and we have to got get

a grip. Where they are too many cars to inspectors? If we are

looking at the period of 10 years before the last horse meat trials

on foot were conducted, 10 years ago, it should be going on every

two years at least. 10 years is a long time. We should be in a

position where we can find out what is in our food at any given moment.

But if you are making cuts to food inspectors... I do not go with that

because you have those officers then out to look for horsemeat. We

must not knee-jerk on this. We must be more vigilant and make sure we

get this whole issue sorted. It is not about numbers, it is about the

effectiveness of the inspector, the effectiveness of how they conduct

the inspections. Numbers are irrelevant. You can have as many as

you want but if they are not looking in the right place, it does

not matter how many people you have their. I do not want to see the

government have a knee-jerk reaction on this because if you

bring in more inspectorates who are not focused on the right area, the

cost of their cars back to me as a primary producer. It does not get

pushed up the line to the consumer. I do not get more from abroad up

because I am inspected more and this comes back to the innocent.

Thank you. We all know the familiar complaint,

politicians do not listen but consider what is going on in Fylde.

It is unusual because 20 of the 51 councillors there are independents.

They say the ruling Conservative group ignores them said they are

using powers to try to trigger a referendum to change the way it is

run. In Fylde, a political storm is

brewing and it is all getting a bit frosty at the Town Hall. Meet the

members of the Fylde Civic Awareness Group. They are critical

of the Cabinet made up of the leader of the council or and six

Conservative councillors. They say too much power is in the hands of

the few. What we have here is that the decisions are being made behind

closed doors and that when it comes to a cabinet meeting, it is purely

a rubber-stamping issue. When we are not allowed to debate it and

when it is only those seven people that make that decision, it is not

democratic. 0 return to the committee system would make

decisions being taken by groups of councillors from all parties. With

some councillors calling for change, it is looking like a showdown is on

the cards with the leader of the Council. We have various committees

that operate and run the daily running of this council. It leader

of the council says there is debate and democracy and is denying all

allegations of deals done behind closed doors. How do you feel about

these criticisms? I feel they are very unfounded. Prior to the

Cabinet system, Fylde Borough Council was classed as being a

poorly run council. Under this cabinet system, there were

opportunities for all councillors with in Fylde Borough Council to be

involved, to criticise, to comment, to take part in debates. We have a

network of 20 shops throughout Fylde where people can walk in and

sign the petition. The Fylde Civic Awareness Group needs to collect

4,000 signatures in order for there to be a referendum. People will be

able to tell them if they are not happy with what happens and

certainly in the areas I represent, people are happy. A referendum

would cost this council in excess of �120,000 to operate. The funding

for any referendum can only be met by one group of people and they are

the council tax payers of Fylde and I feel that that is very unfair.

Which direction we live go? Will be winds of change take a hold as

local residents decide on Cabinet or committee?

Said Gerald, do you think they will be better off going back to the

Olda star Cabinet system? The main thing is to have a system which

listens to it the people. Elected representatives are important. But

in the end, this is not about what elected representatives decide is

best for the people. It is what people decide his best for

themselves with their elected representatives listening,

attending and where appropriate and possible, implementing. It does not

seem to me that that is what is working on Fylde council. I am wary

of referendums and I complete the accept it might be expensive to

have won, but the cure is full of the council not to regard itself as

living in some cocoon in its town hall. The cure is for the council

to listen to the people, respond to them, pay attention and where

appropriate, do what the people ask to be done. Do you agree there is

something going on there? I do. It is, localism... It will be very

interesting we have to see what the result is. If that result is either

committee or executive, fine, let's see what happens from there. I

believe this is the first case in the country. I myself will be very

interested to see what is going on but it is evident that you have a

minority party wanting to have a louder voice, it has gone to be a

referendum now, like in the localism Act, let the people speak.

It is what is going on with the elected representatives and they

should listen to the people. Gerald says it does not come down

to political structures, it is about whether politicians listen

effectively or not. Clearly there you is if you change the structure,

the politicians will be forced to listen to them all. That is their

view and the good thing about the localism act is that you can be

expressed. I would be very interested to see the result of

this. It was Labour to change the system to bring in Cabinet and the

idea was to streamline local politics to make decisions quicker

and more efficiently. Do we think perhaps that was not such a good

idea or are we saying it works in some places on not in others?

Quicker does not mean more efficient. Whoever is in charge,

sometimes you have to pause and listen and pay attention and change

your policies. That is what we are discussing in my city. We have an

overwhelming Labour majority and Manchester and will soon have a 100

% Labour council. Listen To the People. That has been my watchword

in 43 years in the House of Commons. You cannot always do what is asked.

Where is the problem here? The people in this case are also the

councillors and it is the councillors, the independent

councillors who say the ruling groups are ignoring them. One does

the way democracy mean? It comes from two Greek words. It is

government by the people. I am a member of parliament. I do not

govern, I represent. Carsley, that might be the issue, that is what

the Conservative group leader was saying. It is but if that is what

it will cost, I am certain that in future occasions, that cost should

be looked at in a different way, how it can be deep -- cheaper. I

agree with everything Gerald has said, it is all about the people.

Time for a round-up of the rest of the week's news.

Fresh inquests for the victims of the Hillsborough disaster could be

held in Liverpool after a new powers were given to coroners. Lord

Justice Goldring says he will make that decision in due course.

A sweetener or cash for The government has denied offering

schools money to drop their opposition to becoming academies.

The head teachers' union says payments of �40,000 have been

offered to 32 schools in Lancashire. We have now become the natural

party of government in this party. -- country.

And a campaign has been launched for a statue at Westminster of

Harold Wilson. This week marked 50 years since the former prime

minister and MP for Ormskirk and Sir Gerald, you worked with Carole

Dawson almost from the start of him being Prime Minister. What did you

learn from him? I work for Harold Wilson for five years and went with

him to the north to his constituency. What I learned from

him his government is important and policies are important and changes

can be made, like the way he invented the Open University. But

the main thing is to listen to the people. He was the first people's

Member of Parliament. He was a fantastic constituent MP. I went

with him to his surgeries in Moseley and Kirby and he sat there

himself, taking notes from his constituency is, listing to them on

-- and on Monday he gave instructions for their worries and

complaints to be followed up. like him? My thought he was a

wonderful man. He was an extraordinarily nice person. Kind

and considerate but ruthless as well because you cannot become a

party leader without being with us, but he was an outstanding Prime

Minister and he made changes in this country which had not been

reversed. Day the, what do you think of the idea of a statue to

him? I think a statue should be elected -- erected for him. He was