14/04/2013 Sunday Politics North West

part of the programme: As the North West goes, so Great Britain will go.

But did it? From fighting Militant to mass unemployment, from riots to

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2188 seconds

regeneration - what was Baroness Good morning. Coming up. As the

North West goes, so will Great Britain go. But did it? From riots

to regeneration, what was Baroness Thatcher's legacy in this region?

Joining us to discuss that is Sir Gerald Kaufman and Paul Maynard, the

Conservative MP for Blackpool North and Cleveland is, who is helping

Oliver Letwin dropped today's Conservative policies.

Let us listen first to what's Gerald and others have to say about

Parliament's recall this week. made redundant at the time he said.

I setup my business cheetah factories and need a success. -- due

to Thatcher's policies and I made a success. One should never destroy

without then building up again and too many industries, too many

working-class communities across the North were laid waste. I recently

had published in a newspaper an article about protecting children

from pornography on televisions and videos. She told me how much I

admire -- she admires the article and said, I carry it everywhere with

you in my handbag. Mr Speaker, to be part of the contents of Margaret...

To be part of the contents of Margaret Thatcher's handbag, what

greater thing could one possibly hope for?

Sir Gerald Kaufman, you were clearly opposed to her policies, but it

sounds as though you had some affection for her as well?

course. It was my job and principles to oppose pretty much everything she

didn't save this country when she was Prime Minister, but that does

not affect your personal relations. I got on with her very well and we

had pleasant relations. She was always forthcoming to me. If they

wrote Rolle letters she would reply quickly and reply by hand. Personal

relations are not necessarily affected by political antagonisms.

Paul Maynard, when did you first meet her? At the age of four. She

came to school and played with me. She invited the entire school going

to Downing Street and being an inquisitive four-year-old boy I

whipped up her skirt and got far more than I bargained for. Thank

you. If the 1980s was a period of

political warfare then the north-west was one of the key

battlegrounds. The start of the decade saw riots in Moss Side in

Toxteth and ended with protests over the poll tax. There were struggles

with the unions and Militant. Disasters at Manchester airport and

Hillsborough. I love coming here anyway, so I have

come here quite a lot. The Prime Minister 's visit was

arranged with haste and secrecy. The first the people of Liverpool knew

was when her convoy was seen... During the course of the meeting,

the bishops wanted to impress upon her the need for compassion. They

were treated to her. They were interrupted by Denis Thatcher, he

said, that is not really one of the Prime Minister's words. She led me

to come here and do the things that I did. It was under the Conservative

government that those transformational things took place.

We are Great Britain's miners, one out, all out. She destroyed people

's lates, she destroyed communities, businesses. Margaret Thatcher came

to the scene of the crash straight from holiday in Austria. She spent

nearly an hour on the tarmac and expected the wreckage at close

quarters. As the Prime Minister urged to being and stewing, several

eggs were thrown from the crowd. -- and merged to shouts of abuse.

closed down industries in the government did not then enable the

people who were most affected to get alternative employment. 200 will

join the march and thousands more will be transported to the capital

for the rally. She was a women who excited strong feelings, she

polarised political opinion, but she actually did stand for something.

And we are also joined from Bristol by Lord Hunt. He was a Wirral MP for

21 years and was a minister and deputy chief whip in Mrs that your's

government. Sir Gerald Kaufman, as far as you're concerned, what was

the worst thing about Thatcherism and her policies? Its divisiveness,

and the way that it set different groups of people against each other.

And the consequences of her policies, which were mass

unemployment, privatisation, privatisation of socially rented

houses so that people lost the opportunity of getting houses, she

pitied to different groups of people and she had an electoral strategy

which was based on giving to those through tax concessions. Giving to

those who were likely to vote for her and taking away from those who

would not fought for her. Deliberately, in your opinion? Yes,

indeed. I do not criticise the strategy, she was a Tory Prime

Minister carrying out Tory policies. It did not expect to carry out

Labour policies. Lord Hunt, Sir Gerald Kaufman is seeing that this

was a policy of taking money from pure and giving it to richer

people. Let us not re-rate has to be. My recollection goes back to

1976 when I stood as the candidate on Merseyside for Wirral. Margaret

Thatcher came up. Let us try and remember what the country was like

at that time. Inflation was around 27%, over half of industry was owned

by the government who are actually running it rather badly. There was a

crisis in our public expenditure, we had a letter from the IMF scene we

had to cut back public expenditure. Those weren't the circumstances,

when we became the sick man of Europe, and that was when Margaret

Thatcher won the 1979 election. Do not let us forget the background, we

had a lot to turn around. I accept the background, but in the early

years under Thatcher unemployment shot up and affected this region

perhaps more than most. What Margaret Thatcher wanted to do was

to return industry to the private sector. That old policy of

nationalising everything, including a lot of private companies, was

wrong and misplaced and it created a great deal of damage. She also had

to abolish exchange controls, Price commission, income controls,

dividend controls, that of course had an effect on unemployment.

Lord Hunt, you work energy minister, there were a lot of mailing works

closures. Do you understand that there was perhaps a lack of

compassion near in terms of finding people new jobs. I think people are

rewriting history. People should pay attention to what Neil Kinnock has

said about the miners's strike. And Sir Gerald Kaufman referred to it.

It was something of a political strike and you have two will ask

yourself why. There had been an election in 1983. Scargill disagreed

with that election and so he wanted to post Margaret Thatcher. It was

very divisive indeed. What unique, Sir Gerald Kaufman, of what Lord

Hunt is seeing there? Lord Hunt, David Hunt, who I knew very well in

Parliament, is pitting the case as he sees it. It is not the case as I

see it. Certainly, she decided after Ted Heath had been defeated as prime

minister by the miners, she decided that she was going to defeat the

miners, and shall she provoked the miners to strike when call was not

needed. And she was helped by the fact that the leader of the National

union of Mineworkers do not hold a ballot of his members, which splits

the National union of Mineworkers. Paul Maynard, you were growing up in

the 1980s, did you feel her policies were right for that period? I did. I

was growing up in a village where people were able to buy their

council houses for the first time. People could aspire to go on to

better things and she promised to bring harmony with was discord, and

there was plenty of discord in 1979. I do not think in retrospect that

anyone would disagree that the 20 years after her premiership are far

more harmonious than the 20 years before she took over. She actually

delivered on that prominence. -- promise.

You served as inner cities minister. Why did the Tories get weight taped

Indian cities? There was a tremendous change in the structure.

The older industries were declining and Margaret Thatcher wanted to see

the rise of the entrepreneur, the individual. Certainly I found when I

was in cities Minister, as they did when I was called minister, that she

wanted to put a lot of resources into regeneration. Michael Heseltine

found that he was getting the support he needed when he wanted to

regenerate inner cities and so did I. The trouble is that we were

trying to roll back years of socialism and Sir Gerald Kaufman and

I will disagree on this, but there was a need for Reconstruction and

Margaret Thatcher did what she could to support us.

Lord Hunt, thank you very much for your time. We will stick with that

theme. When Margaret Thatcher was re-elected in 1983, she started by

saying there was a big job to do in the end cities. The willingness may

have been there, but the Conservative party had been waked

out in Manchester and Liverpool. When she came to power she had two

seats in Liverpool and one in Manchester. There have now been no

Conservative MPs in Liverpool for 30 years. It is a similar story at

council level. The last seat they had was 15 years ago. We have been

Liverpool assessing Baroness We think of Toxteth, Hillsborough,

some of the biggest events that happened during Thatcher's time

happened in Liverpool. How do people view that snow? Where there is

discord, may we bring harmony. There was very little harmony on the

streets of Toxteth in 1981. I think what she had was that she had so

much lack experience here that she would not be able to interpret what

was said. You were talking to her face but she

was not listening. She waits for you to finish and she tells you what she

wants to see. That is my memory of her. He says that the streets are

worse than they were three decades ago. In my view, the policies they

had been Liverpool did absolutely next to nothing to improve the life

of like young people and the black community in Liverpool. Where there

is despair, may we bring hope. were you doing during the Thatcher

Europe? I had a sports shop and I sold it -- I sold football kits.

Different times. Very different times. He would not recognise the

city. That transformation, he believes, began with the Iron Lady.

Even now, people see that Margaret Thatcher cost us thousands of jobs.

Full stops would have gone anyway but what we have never is a thriving

city. She did not get recognition at the time and she will not now. It

was Margaret Thatcher that started things off despite objections from

the local council that eventually turned the city round.

Where there is error may we bring truth.

There is that Hillsborough affected thousands of lives. Margaret

Aspinall, who lost her son, is only now starting to find out the truth.

Years later and all that documentation was in the hands. How

appalling is that? Were they raise doubt, may we bring faith. There are

some people who are sick and tired of liberals in this city!

This shows that she did have a definite interest. Very much so. You

could tell from the words... He says that the Prime Minister had faith in

the city. She came and she applauded those of us who were involved in

doing something rather than moaning about somebody else not doing

something for them. The voters do still not trust the Tories in

Liverpool. There are no Conservatives in Liverpool. That is

still some kind of legacy surrounding the 1980s period.

Even today 's hammer political waters, even the mention of Margaret

Thatcher here still stirs strong emotions.

We are joined by a professor from Liverpool University. Why were the

Conservatives awaked out in the North West? Liverpool was

particularly vulnerable, its portals and acclaim, the workers were

underqualified. In Liverpool there were one in five people unemployed.

A big problem was mass youth unemployment. Whole generation never

worked or got used to any kind of regular work. That erupted in

riots. That generation were kept out of work. Was this a product of

Thatcherism would it have happened anyway? Everyone would have had a

tough 1980s regardless of who was in power. We did need modernisation.

But Liverpool then had a fairly suicidal strategy of taking on the

government. This was a Prime Minister who had taken on that IRA

hunger strikers. It was almost inevitable that it would have

disastrous effects. Do you believe that it had a modernisation of the

economy that had consequences? not agree that it modernised. I

think it undermined an economy that needed improvements but in many ways

worked well. But Liverpool now is a major city in terms of financial

sector outside of London. We did not come right after Thatcher's

premiership. Thatcher was a Prime Minister who had her own motives,

she had the right to those motives as a Tory prime minister but they

were not good for industry. The manufacturing industry was almost

waked out in Manchester during her period in office. Paul Maynard,

whatever the truth of this, the reality is that the Conservatives

have never recovered in places like Liverpool. Manchester and

Liverpool's renaissance is came as a result of Margaret Thatcher. It is

very easy to overstate the role that Margaret Thatcher played in wiping

out Conservative representation in our northern cities.

It is very difficult for you to when a Conservative majority if you do

not have representation in places like Liverpool. It certainly does.

But attributing that to Margaret Thatcher does not look at other

factors. It was as much sectarian as it was political. It is not as

simple as saying nasty Margaret was the one behind it all. Former

complex. John, we focused on the big cities

but she had electro excess in other parts of the North West. --

electoral success. She was very popular. In some places that the

Conservatives have been very difficult to win since she left

office. She is so divisive, because the cities will power, the suburbs

loved her. -- the cities heated her. He was the 62nd round up.

Liverpool John were the University has withdrawn the Henri Fellowship

awarded to Sir Norman Bettison. It comes after the police watchdog

found that he would have a case to answer about Hillsborough if he was

still serving. The government says that thousands

of families will benefit from �11 million of funding for local

hospices. The money will be shared between 31 centres. People holding

assets on the Isle of Man to avoid tax are being given three years to

pay up. An agreement with the UK Government means that backs want

them -- banks will then automatically identify account

orders. The latest report into drilling for

shale gas says that it is not a significant cause of earthquakes.

Paul Maynard, what is the significance do you think of

Margaret Thatcher to politics today? How does she still influence things?

What she does is remainder is that the task of all politicians is, in

times of economic and social change, we have to do ever best to navigate

our path through that change and support people through that change

and she defined herself against a set back and wait Britain and

stressed the importance of the individual. We cannot just hide pain

Society and let others take responsibility. What are your views

on how she still influences politics? There is a word. That's

risen. No other prime minister since the war left that legacy with her or