19/05/2013 Sunday Politics North West

dubbed The Wild West without a sheriff - now there's a new manx

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2160 seconds

message over tax. We have the stop the wild West without a

sheriff, now there is a new message in the Isle of Man overtaxed.

we've done will help and has helped to change the offshore perception of

the Isle of Man. We are not a tax haven. We are a small international

business centre. We welcome someone who travelled further than normal to

join us, Alan Bell, and Debbie Abrahams, the Labour MP for Oldham.

Let's start by talking about on street grooming, because we know

that is an issue for some in the Muslim community. Seven people were

found guilty of it in Oxford. How much of an issue is it in all them?

It is an appalling tragedy what has happened to these young girls and we

need to focus on protecting our children from sexual predators. In

Oldham there is a lot of work already going on. We need to be very

clear about suggesting that this relates to one community or another.

We know this is widespread across the country, also affecting

communities. On Street grooming is pretty specific. I take issue with

that. If you look at the evidence from the police it is inconclusive,

and we need to be very careful before we get into focusing and

targeting any particular community. Let's remember that this all came

about because of what happened in Rochdale, the nine men jailed there.

Here's what the Rochdale MP had to say. Senior officers in the local

authority set a very unhealthy culture that saw these girls making

life choices like this, they walked away from this authority with

literally hundreds of thousands of pounds, and we are still waiting for

Rochdale Council to publish a report showing exactly what went wrong.

Your colleague has been pretty outspoken over this. How confident

are you lessons have been learned? We need to wait and see in terms of

the investigation. It needs to be published as soon as possible. We

need to learn lessons from that and if people are found to be one

thing, they should be doing the right thing. Alan Bell, this is

primarily an issue for the Muslim community, but paedophilia is

certainly a wider issue than that. Because of these issues being

brought to the fore, as child protection become more of a priority

on the Isle of Man? Obviously we have not had the same horrible

experience as some parts of the UK, and hopefully we never will, but

clearly we follow these cases very carefully, and do our best to make

sure we learn the same lessons, which the local areas do. The one

thing we need to be careful about is these are really horrific stories

but the main body of abuse which takes place is often within the

family and friends, behind closed doors. We must not lose sight of the

fact to focus every bit as much of attention on that. It is very much

more difficult to detect. Absolutely. Who fancies a week

away? If you've got children and fancy going away during term time,

it is cheaper but is about to become more difficult. The government is

clamping down and parents in Bury have had letters. Lancashire County

Council is writing to teachers. These children are where they should

be during term time. Pupils in other schools have been taking off when

they shouldn't, swapping the classroom for the seaside. The

parents save money so the pressure is on headteachers. I point out the

other side of the coin, the child coming back, their friendships may

have moved on, they may feel they have moved out -- missed out on some

important work. If attendance levels continue to drop it could trigger an

inspection. Here, some give up their annual holiday to make sure their

children are at school. We just have the time off in the allocated

holidays. We always take school holidays, we believe it. We tried

looking for holidays and it is three times more in the middle of summer.

When it is the middle of May and it is still raining, some parents may

be forgiven for wanting some quality family time in the sun. But it can

affect children's grades. If a child is gone for three weeks, it can have

the impact of downgrading the GCSE performance. Under current rules,

headteachers can allow up to ten days for special circumstances. In

September, the Department for education says schools should only

give permission in exceptional circumstances. But there is no

definition. If we need to set parameters, some people will not

feel they are being fairly treated. In England, nearly 10% of absences

were because of parents taking children out of school during term

time. The �60 fine is often far less than the parents saved by hitting

the beach then. Do you support this idea of tightening up the rules?

is absolutely right that children should only be going away out of

school except in exceptional circumstances. My eldest daughter,

we asked permission to go to my mother's wedding abroad, but it does

affect, there is evidence that affects the performance of students.

Parents should be working to ensure the best outcome. You follow the

British guidelines. Will you be tightening up? It's not a major

problem on the island but it's clearly an issue. We follow what

goes on closely. Ensuring children get the best possible education is

top of the priority list. We need to understand two things, these cases

should be taken on a case-by-case basis, because there are very strong

reasons that it might be the only opportunity for the family to get

together for a small holiday, because they cannot afford the

holiday at another time. That brings quality a time for the family,

nurtures the children, and can be helpful. -- that brings quality

time. If you say that you cannot afford it and cannot have the time

off, how do you compare? It is difficult to follow, but you need to

look at individual cases. Generally, I do not think parents should be

encouraged to take their children out. There is clear evidence it has

a detrimental effect on exam results. Parents should be armed

with that knowledge before they make a decision. Ultimately, it should be

the right of the parent to decide what is in the best interests of the

child. If this is being abused, there should be further action

taken. Possibly nobody wants to leave the Isle of Man anyway because

of the nice scenery. Absolutely.At the moment you have ten days where

headteachers have leeway. From what you're saying, perhaps there should

not be any excuse except in very exceptional circumstances? It does

need to be on a case-by-case basis. Parents need to decide what is in

the best interests of the children. We must not forget that the key

determination is about poverty. There is an increase of children

living in poverty as a result of the government's changes. That will have

an impact on educational attainment. We should focus on those things

first. I'm glad you mentioned tax, because nobody likes playing it but

some people actively avoided or evade it. For some British taxpayers

it means putting tax into that counts -- into tax accounts on the

Isle of Man. That should be more difficult with new legislation. It

was once described as the wild West without a sheriff. Rich and

colourful characters took advantage of the Isle of Man's taxbreaks. Fast

forward, and tax is front-page news. The government has welcomed the

decision to start using the scheme. Tax avoiders find themselves on the

right side of the law but on the wrong side of public opinion.

avoidance and evasion is a cancer in Britain's society today.

government say the Isle of Man being a tax dodging haven is based purely

on its history and they have spent the last decade trying to move away

from that. As finance ministers met recently to plot a solution to tax

evasion, the government said this was a positive message. There is no

doubting the willingness of the Isle of Man government to ensure they

have a good reputation. The net is closing in on those people who try

to get out of paying their taxes, and tried to evade tax. The island

has agreed to exchange automatically information relating to personal

bank accounts, trusts and companies. They have also agreed to work

towards a multilateral pilot scheme with the United Kingdom and Europe.

People who have been hiding investments now have three years to

come clean. Will there be many? guess is any who were using the Isle

of Man will have pushed off several years ago. If there are any left

using it, bad luck. As the Chancellor stated his case at the

summit, the Treasury minister questioned his mathematics. He said

bad business was in the past and they have been leading the move for

more transparency. I feel confident that any business not meeting

current standards would have left by now. We are not a tax haven. We are

a small international business centre. The haemorrhage ring of tax

scale -- the number of tax evasion is is huge. This MP asked whether

the government has the stomach for a battle. The UK controls half of the

world's tax havens and he refuses to close them down. I do not think he

has the nerve to take on the city of London, the big business, and the

superrich, all of which want him to leave it as it is. Taxbreaks have

meant big business for the island. They hoped the latest agreements

will boost their image, and help it take off as a diverse and

internationally responsible economy. We are joined from Edinburgh by a

tax consultant. Let me start with Mr Bell. Why have you signed the

agreement? We have worked on these for ten years. When they first

established agreements, we were the first small nation to agree to

that. We worked very closely with the international community. We were

the first jurisdiction to give automatic exchange of information on

bank accounts to the European Union. That was voluntary. There was no

debate. We have committed to an automatic exchange with the United

States and now the UK. You have been put under pressure. We have followed

the argument, we understand the international agenda, we have every

understanding of the concerns about people paying their fair whack of

tax. We agree totally with that and we will work with the UK and other

jurisdictions to recognise that. There are issues in the UK and the

US and Europe that they need to tidy up. Let us speak to the tax

consultant. I much of a step forward is this agreement? -- how much of a

step forward? A huge step forward. It is very important to point out

that not every organisation which has a bank account on the Isle of

Man or other territories has it to evade or avoid tax. It is important

to point out there is a huge difference between tax evasion,

which is illegal, and tax avoidance, which is perfectly legal, albeit

some organisations push the envelope -- push the envelope. I do not think

this goes far enough, because a lot of these people set up structures

which are fairly complex in order to hide the trails. You will typically

have offshore trusts with umpteen companies operating underneath them,

with directors. It is very difficult, often, to get back to

whoever is actually the beneficial owner of these accounts. That is the

next big thing that governments internationally need to cooperate

on, to establish that trail and get back to the owner. Is this enough?

It is a move in the right direction, but why has it taken so long? �120

billion is estimated to have been avoided. Why has it taken so long?

It shows, the priorities of the government are not here. They are

not holding to account these powerful vested interests. It is an

amazing fact to me that there are more staff administering child

benefit cuts in revenues and customs than there are in the combined units

of the offshore and affluence units. That says it all. One reason

it took so long is because your government did not do it. We have

admitted where our shortcomings are and I would not deny that, but this

government has been in power for three years now. They are getting on

with it. Not fast enough. We put these in place to start with, but

they are not doing enough. It shows where their priorities are. Just

mentioning beneficial ownership. The Isle of Man is well ahead of the

United Kingdom in knowing the beneficial ownership of all their

entities. We have regulation of entities, trusts, the UK has none of

that. Would you be willing to give that information to the UK

government? Absolutely. We need to see the UK following us and doing as

well. The UK have catch up work to do. One thing you have always argued

in the past is that the Isle of Man is not a tax haven. I'll else can

you explain the need for this agreement? -- how else can you

explain the need for this agreement? We have been open for many years. We

have this information. This is simply formalising what has existed

for a long time. This is going further, providing information to

the British government which you did not provide before. We have an

agreement to exchange information automatically with the European

Union. As far as I know, the UK is still part of the European Union and

thus were partial to that information. If you need to look for

culprits, you need to look beyond the Isle of Man, into larger

economies and smaller jurisdictions, perhaps in Asia as well as the

British Isles. Part of this deal, as I understand it, is about taxing the

interest on money in Isle of Man bank accounts. What do you make of

that? That is fine as far as it goes. It is a step in the right

direction. But you've got to wonder about the principal sums which were

lodged in these accounts to start with. Should they have been liable

to tax? This could stem from a wide range of activities which are not

being declared like Internet trading. Whilst it is great we are

going to catch up on tax on the interest, a far bigger kettle of

fish is the tax on the sums which were put in in the first place.

that happen? I think it will happen. We have seen a lot of progress,

notwithstanding the frustrations mentioned. We have seen a lot of

progress over the three years the government has been in power, but it

is a huge problem, and as one of your other contributors said, it

goes beyond the Isle of Man, British overseas dependencies. This is a

global problem that needs a global solution, involving governments

around the world. It is not far enough. The tax gap is 90% of the

NHS budget. It is not far enough. What did you make of that point?

valid point which raises another problem for the UK. It is right to

know where the capital sums come from, and we have a very strict

regime, the bulk of the funds comes from the UK banking system. It is

transferred from the UK into the Isle of Man. You have to ask the

question, what is happening in the UK banks that you have not got the

same regime in the UK as we do? Otherwise that question would not

get asked in the first place. thank you for asking it. Thank you

for your time. Time for the Salford and Manchester has closed

after losing its funding. Salford City Council says legally it had no

choice. A couple on the Isle of Man have called for a change in the law

after they were banned from renting a flat because they were gay.

a matter of shock, and disbelief. deal has been done to run Cumbria

County Council more than a week after the local elections. Labour is

going into coalition with the Liberal Democrats. Still on track,

but should it be? The economic benefits of high-speed rail to the

north-west are unclear. They need to be more specific about where they

think those benefits are going to come from and how they implement the

programme? Experts gather in Liverpool to tackle an expanding

problem. They chose the second most overweight area of the country for

the obesity Congress. The gay couple on the Isle of Man who were not

allowed to rent. What do you make of that? It is appalling in this day

and age that that still happens. I remember 2010, a similar case with

the bed-and-breakfast. We have very clear laws in the UK, where public

services are being provided, it is appalling. What are you going to do

about it? I was absolutely shocked when I heard about this. We need to

realise this is just a 1-off. It is not a reflection of widespread

homophobia on the Isle of Man. takes a long time to change those

kinds of attitude. I fully accept the rights of individuals to have

their own religious views, but in this day and age, we have a loving

relationship, to people wanting to set up home together. It is

outrageous they should be discriminated against because of

their sexuality. I have already started to look at the equalities

legislation on the island, and I hope we will be able to fill in any

gaps shortly. What do you think the Isle of Man government should do?

have the equalities act, I'm sure there is something to take from

there. You said in terms of other legislation, talking about

legislation, you have similar legislation to the UK government. Is

that something you perhaps need to adopt there? We have quite extensive

legislation on the island already, we are signatories to the European