10/11/2013 Sunday Politics North West

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on

the war path over pay day loans your energy bill and what he calls

the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls

don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's

Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage

won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be

talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page

three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with

some balls. Stay. It is good fun for the

In the north`west, one year into the job, how well do you know your

police It is free choice. In London, the

row over the super sewer rumbles on. And with me, fresh from their

success at yesterday's Star Wars auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan

Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick

Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. First, the talks with Iran in

Geneva. They ended last night without agreement despite hopes of a

breakthrough. America and its allies didn't think Iran was prepared to go

far enough to freeze its nuclear programme. But some progress has

been made and there's to be another meeting in ten days' time, though at

a lower level. The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had this

to say a little earlier. On the question of, or will it happen in

the next few weeks? There is a good chance of that. We will be trying

again on 20th, 21st of November and negotiators will be trying again. We

will keep an enormous amount of energy and persistence behind

solving this. Will that be a deal which will please everyone? No, it

will not. Compromises will need to be made. I had discussions with

Israeli ministers yesterday and put the case for the kind of deal we are

looking the case for the kind of deal we are

interests of the whole world, including

interests of the whole world, the world, to reach a diplomatic

agreement we can be confident in in this issue. This otherwise will

threaten the world with nuclear proliferation and conflict in the

future. The interesting thing about this is that it seems

future. The interesting thing about prepared to go far enough over the

Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor it is building. The people who took

the toughest line - the French. France has always had a pretty tough

line on Iran. They see it as a disruptive influence in Lebanon I

am reasonably optimistic a deal will be done later this month when the

talks reconvene. Western economic sanctions have had such an impact on

Iran domestic league. They have pushed inflation up to 40%.

Dashes-macro domestically. The new president had a campaign pledge

saying, I will deal with sanctions. I actually think, by the end of this

year, we will see progress in these talks. Should we be optimistic? The

next round of talks will be at official level. The place to watch

will be Israel. The language which has been coming out of there is

still incredibly angry, incredibly defensive. They do not want a deal

at all. Presumably John Kerry has to go away and tried to get Israel to

be quiet about it, even if they cannot be happy about it. They

cannot agree to a deal which allows the Iraq reactor with plutonium

heavy water. You do not need that with a peaceful nuclear power

programme will stop that is why the Israelis are so nervous. If there is

an international deal, Israel could still bomb that but it would be

impossible. The French tactics are interesting. It says the French

blocked it in part because they are trying to carry favour with Israel

but also the Gulf Arab states, who are really nervous about and

Iranians nuclear capability. Who is that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a

story saying that Pakistan is prepared to provide them with

nuclear weapons. You are right about Saudi Arabia. They are much more

against this deal than Israel. Who is Herman van Rompuy's favourite

MEP? It is probably not Nigel Farage. He plummeted to the bottom

of the EU president's Christmas card list after comparing him to a bank

clerk with the charisma of a damp rag. And he's been at it again this

week. Have a look. Today is November the 5th, a big celebration festival

day in England. That was an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament

with dynamite and destroy the Constitution. You have taken the

Dahl, technocratic approach to all of these things. What you and your

colleagues save time and again you talk about initiatives and what you

are going to do about unemployment. The reality is nothing in this union

is getting better. The accounts have not been signed off for 18 years. I

am now told it is 19 and you are doing your best to tone down any

criticism. Whatever growth figures you may have, they are anaemic.

Youth unemployment in the Mediterranean is over 50% in several

states. You will notice there is a rise in opposition dashed real

opposition. Much of it ugly opposition, not stuff that I would

want to link hands with. And Nigel Farage joins me now. Let me put to

you what the editor of the Sun had to say. He says, UKIP will peak at

the European election and then it will begin to get marginalised as we

get closer to 2015 because there is now that clear blue water between

Labour and the Tories. What do you say to that? There may be layered

blue water on energy pricing but on Eastern Europe, there is no

difference at all. When Ed Miliband offers the referendum to match

Cameron, even that argument on Europe will be gone. The one thing

that will keep UKIP strong, heading towards 2015, is if people think in

some constituencies we can win. I cannot sit here right now and say

that will be the case. If we get over the hurdle of the European

elections clearly, I think there will be grounds to say that UKIP can

win seats in Westminster. You are going to run? Without a shadow of a

doubt. I do not know which constituency. The welcome I got in

Edinburgh was not that friendly Edinburgh is not everything in

Scotland. I think we have a realistic chance of winning those

elections. If we do that, we will have the momentum behind us. You

might be the biggest party after the May elections. The National front is

likely to do very well in France as well. They have won the crucial

by-election in the South of France. Have you talked about joining full

season in Parliament? The leader has tried to take the movement into a

different direction than her father. The man she beat, to become leader,

actually attended the BNP conference. The problem she has with

her party and we have with her party is that anti-Semitism is too deep

and we will not be doing a deal with the French national government. You

can guarantee you will not be joining such groups. I can guarantee

that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's accept that the pro-Europeans

exaggerate the loss of jobs that would follow the departure of

Britain from the UK. Is there no risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk

whatsoever. There is no risk at all. There have been some weak and lazy

arguments put around about this We will go on doing business - go on

doing trade with Europe. We will have increased opportunities to do

trade deals with the rest of the world and they will create jobs The

head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi and CBI many other voices in British

business, when they all expressed concern about the potential loss of

jobs and incoming investment, we should just ignore them. With

Nissan, the BBC News is making this a huge story. The boss did not say

what was reported. He said there was a potential danger to his future

investment. They have already made the investments. They have built the

plant in Sunderland, which they say is operating well. We should be

careful of what bosses of big businesses say. This man said they

may have two leaves Sunderland if we did not join the euro. I do not take

that seriously. As for the CBI, they wanted us to join the euro and now

they do not. Even within the CBI, there is a significant minority

saying, we do not agree with what the CBI director-general is saying.

The former boss of the organisation is saying we need a referendum and

we need a referendum soon. It depends on the renegotiation. There

is not the uniformity. What we are beginning to see in the world, is,

manufacturing and small businesses are a lot more voices saying, the

costs of membership outweigh any potential benefit. If you look at

the polls, if Mr Cameron does repatriate some powers and he joins

with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Nationalists in Scotland and Wales,

most of business, all of the unions to say we should stay in, you are

going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75, the circumstances were exactly the

same. Mr Wilson promised a renegotiation and he got very

little. The establishment gathered around him and they voted for us to

stay in. I do not think that will happen now. The scales have fallen.

We do not want to be governed by Herman Van Rompuy and these people.

These people are Eurosceptic but they do not seem to feel strongly

enough about it that they are going to defy all the major parties they

vote for, companies that employ them, unions they are members of. I

am absolutely confident there will be a lot voices in business saying,

we need to take this opportunity to break free, give ourselves a chance

of a low regulation lowball trader. -- global trade. In 1970 53 small

publications said to vote yes. I am not contemplating losing. The most

important thing is to get the referendum. If UKIP is not strong,

there will not be a referendum. Earlier in the year, your party

issued a leaflet about the remaining sample parents being able to come to

this country. The EU will allow 29 million Bulgarians and remaining is

to come to the UK. That is technically correct but we both know

that is not the case. It is an open door to these people. Why take the

risk? By make out there are 29 million people? I stand by that

verdict. It is an open door. 29 million are not going to come. They

can if they want. Also 29 million people from France can come. After

these countries have joined, we will do another leaflet saying that Mr

Cameron wants to open the door to 70 million people from Turkey. That is

scaremongering. I would not say that. We have a million young

British workers between 16 and 4 without work. A lot of them want

work and we do not need another massive oversupply in the unskilled

labour market. Why did you have such a bad time on question Time this

week? The folk that did not buy your anti-immigration stick. Do you think

that group of people in the room was representative of the voters of

Boston? What would make you think it was unrepresentative? When the

county council elections took place this year in Boston, of the seven

seats, UKIP won five and almost won the other two. I don't think that

audience reflected that, but that doesn't matter. How an audience is

put together, how a panel is put together, on one programme, it

doesn't mean much at all. It shows that your anti-immigrant measure

doesn't fly as easily as you hoped it would? The opinion polls which

will be launched on Monday that we are conducting and nearing

completion, they show two things. Firstly, an astonishing number of

people who think it's irresponsible and wrong to open the doer to

Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and crucially, a number of people whose

vote in the European elections and subsequent general elections may be

determined by the immigration issues. This does matter. It would

be the perfect run group the European elections in May for you if

a lot of Bulgarians and remainians flooded in. You would like that to

happen? I think it will happen. Whether I like it or not, it will

happen. You think it will be good for you, it will stir things up If

you say to people in poor countries, you can come here, get a job, have a

safety net of a benefits system claim child allowance for your kids

in Bucharest, people will come You are ready with the arguments

already? You will be disappointed if only ten turn up? Whether lots come

or not we should. Taking the risk and yes, we are going to make it a

major issue in the European election. Let's leave it there.

Thank you very much, Nigel Farage. The summer of 2013 was not good for

Ed Miliband, with questions over his leadership, low ratings and

complaints about no policies. He bounced back with a vengeance at the

Labour Conference in September, delivering a speech which this week

won the spectator political speech of the year aword. In that speech he

focussed on the cost-of-living and promised a temporary freeze on

energy prices. Even said this. The next election isn't just going to be

about policy. It's going to be about how we lead and the character we

show. I've got a message for the Tories today. If they want to have a

debate, about leadership and character, be my guest And if you

want to know the difference between me and David Cameron, here is an

easy way to remember it. When it was Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the

side of Murdoch. When it was the tobacco lobby versus the cancer

charities, he took the side of the tobacco lobby. When the millionaires

wanted a tax cut as people pay the bedroom tax, he took the side of the

millionaires. A come to think of it, here is an easier way to remember

it. David Cameron was a Prime Minister who introduced the bedroom

tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who repeals the bedroom tax There we go,

that will go down with the party faithful on Tuesday. There will be a

debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman,

joints me now. Let's begin with the bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy.

Nearly 11% of people who've come off Housing Benefits all together after

their spare room subsidy was stopped, isn't that proof that

reform was necessary? No. I think that the whole way that the bet room

tax has been attempted to be justified is completely wrong. What

it's said is that it will actually help take people off the waiting

lists by putting them into homes that have been vacated by people

who've downsized by being incentivised by the bedroom tax so

basically if you are a council tenant or Housing Association tenant

in a property with spare bedrooms, then because the penalty is imposed,

you will move to a smaller property. That is the justification for it.

But actually, something like 96 of the people who're going to be hit by

the bedroom tax, there isn't a smaller property for them to move

into. I understand that. Therefore they are, like the people in my

constituency, if they have got one spare bedroom, they are hit by 700

a year extra to pay and that is completely unfair As a consequence

of people losing the subsidy for their spare room, they have decided

to go out and get work and not depend on Housing Benefit at all?

11% of them. What's wrong with that? Well, they are going to review the

way 2 the bedroom tax is working. What is wrong with that? But that's

not working. That's the result of Freedom of Information, 141 councils

provided the figures, 25,000 who've come off benefits, of the 233,0 0

affected, it's about 11%. These people were clearly able to get a

job was having the Housing Benefit in the first place? But of course

the people who're on the benefits who're not in work are always

looking for work and many of them will find work which is a good

thing, but for those who don't find work, or who find work where it s

low-paid and need help with their rent, it's wrong to penalise them on

the basis of the fact that their family might have grown up and moved

away and so you have either got to move out of your home, away from

your family and your neighbourhood, or you've got to stay where you are

and, despite the fact that you are low-paid or unemployed, you have got

to find an extra ?700 a year because of your rent. So it's very unfair

The Government that was commissioning independent research

on the impact of this work change and welfare policy, particularly on

the impact on the most vulnerable, some of which you have been talking

about there, shouldn't they have waited until you have got the

independent research, that independent investigation before

determining your policy? No. In fact, the Government should have

waited until they'd have done their independent research before they

bought into effect something and imposed it on people in a way which

is really unfair. They could have known. Why didn't you wait? What

they could have done is, they could have asked councils, are people

going to be able to Manifest into smaller homes if we impose the

bedroom tax and the answer from councils and Housing Associations

would have been no, they can't move into smaller homes because which

haven't got them there. They should have done the evaluation before they

introduced the policy. We are absolutely clear and you can see the

evidence, people are falling into rent arrears. Many people, it's a

terrifying thing to find that you can't pay your rent, and some of the

people go to payday loan companies to get loans to pay their rent. It

is very, very unfair. The justification for it, which is

people will move, is completely bogus. There aren't places for them

to go. On the wider issue of welfare reform, a call for the TUC showed

that voters support the Government's welfare reforms, including a

majority of Labour voters. Why are you so out of touch on welfare

issues, even with your own supporters? Nobody wants to see

people who could be in a job actually living at the taxpayers'

expense. That's why we have said that we'll introduce a compulsory

jobs guarantee, so that if you are a young person who's been unemployed

for a year, you will have to take a job absolutely have to take a job,

and if you have been unemployed as somebody over 25, there'll be a

compulsory thing after two years of unemployment. So if you have been on

welfare two years? So the main issue about the welfare bill actually is

people who're in retirement who need support. We have said for the

richest pensioners, they shouldn't have to pay their winter fuel

allowance. My point wasn't abouts the sub stance, it's about how you

don't reflect public opinion -- substance. The Parliamentary aid

said the political backlog of benefits and social security is "not

yet one that we have won. Labour must accept that they are not

convincing on these matters,". Well, redo have to convince people and

explain the policies we have got and the view we take. So, for example,

for pensioners, who're well off we are saying they don't need the

Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me saying to you and us saying to

people in this country, we do think that there should be that

tightening. For young people, who've been unemployed, they should be

offered jobs but they've got to take them. So yes, we have to make our

case. OK. The energy freeze which we showed there, on the speech, as

popular. The living wage proseles have been going down well as well.

Why is Labour's lead oaf the Conservatives being cut to 6% in the

latest polls? Ed Miliband's own personal approval rating's gotten

worse. Why is that? I'm not going to disdues ins and outs of weekly

opinion polls with you or anybody else because I'm not a political

commentator, but let me say to you the facts of what's happened since

Ed Miliband's been leader of the Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New

Labour councillors, all of those... But you're... All those who've won

their seats against the Conservatives or the Liberal

Democrats and no, Andrew you don't always get that in opposition. In

1997 after Tony Blair was elected, the Tories carried on losing council

seats. Exceptional circumstances and these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in

the polls. You were six. The economy grew at an annual rate of 3% in the

third quarter just gone. Everybody, private and public forecasters now

saying that Britain in this coming year will grow faster than France,

Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow faster. Your poll ratings are

average when the economy was flatlining, what happens to them

when the economy starts to grow Well, I've just said to you, I'm not

a political commentator or a pundit on opinion polls. We are putting

policies forward and we are holding the Government to account for what

they are doing and we think that what they did opt economy pulled the

plugs from the economy, delayed the recovery, made it stagnate and we

have had three years lost growth. I understand that, but it's now

starting to grow. Indeed. If you are no political commentator, let me ask

you this, you anticipated the growth, so you switched your line to

no growth to this is growth and living standards are rising. If the

economy does grow up towards 3% next year, I would suggest that living

standards probably will start to rise with that amount of growth

What do you do then? We have not switched our line because the

economy started to grow. All the way along, we said the economy will

recover, but it's been delayed and we have had stagnation for far too

long because of the economic policies. We have been absolutely

right to understand the concerns people have and recognise that they

are struggling with the cost-of-living. Sure. And we are

right to do that. What kind of living standards stuck to rise next

year? -- start to rise next year. I hope they will. For 40 months of

David Cameron's Prime Ministership, for 39 of those, wages have risen

slower than prices, so people are worse off. I understand that. You

will know that the broader measurement, real household

disposable income doesn't show that decline because it takes everything

into account. Going around the country, people feel it. They say

where's the recovery for me. Living standards now start to rise? If that

happens, what is your next line There is a set of arguments about

living standards, the National Health Service, about the problems

that there is in A, which caused -- are caused by the organisation. I

can put forward other lines. All right. Let me ask you one other

question If no newspapers have signed up to the Government-backed

Labour-backed Royal Charter on press regular lace by 2015 and it looks

like the way things are going none will have, if you are in power, will

a Labour Government legislate to make them? They don't have to sign

up to the Royal Charter, that's not the system. What the Royal Charter

does is create a recogniser and basically says it's for the

newspapers to set up their own regulator. They are doing that. My

question is... Let me finish. If they decide to have nothing to do

with the Royal Charter that was decided in Miliband's office in the

wee small hours, will you pass legislation to make them? The

newspapers are currently setting up what they call... I know that,

Harriet Harman. Just let me finish. OK. Because the newspapers are

setting up the independent Press Standards Organisation. Right. If it

is independent, as they say it is, then the recogniser will simply say,

we recognise that this is independent and the whole point is

that, in the past when there's been skaen deals a tend press have really

turned people's lives upside down and the press have said OK we'll

sort things out, leave it to us then they have sorted things out but

a few years later they have slipped back, all this recogniser will do is

check it once every three years and say yes, you have got an independent

system and it's remained independent and therefore that is the guarantee

things won't slip back. Very interesting. Thank you for that

That's really interesting that if they get their act right, you won't

force the alternative on them. We want the system as set forward by

Leveson which is not statute and direct regulation. I want to stick

with the press because I want to ask, is this a British institution

or an out-of-date image for a by gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been

dividing the nation since it first appeared way back in 1970. That s 43

years ago. Harriet Harman's called for it to be removed, so we sent

Adam out to ask whether the topless photographs should stay or go. We

have asked people if page three should stay or go. Page three. What

do you think? Nothing wrong with it at all. I think it is cheap and

exploits women. It is a family newspaper. Should it stay or go Go.

I will look like the bad guy. It should go. You have changed your

mind. It is free choice. Girls do not have to be photographed. Old men

get the paper just for that. Know when your age does that? Not really.

Dashes-macro know what your age Page three girls, should they stay

or go? I am not bothered. There are other ways of getting noticed. Page

three of the Sun newspaper every day, there is a woman with no top

on. We got rid of that about 40 years ago in Australia. I am not in

favour of censorship. It has been long enough. It can stay there. What

is wrong with it? We want to encourage children to read the

newspapers. I do not want my children to look at that. It is

degrading. Do you think we will see the day when they get rid of it

Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can turn this into some kind of a

shelter. It is tipping it down. I think the council should do

something about their car parks Mother nature, the human body. It

should stay. Is some people like it, that is fine. I have nothing against

it. You know what has surprised me, lots of women saying it should stay.

Maybe they are seeing it as empowering. As I have a baby

daughter in there, I am happy to see it go. Imagine my grandad opening up

his paper and they're being my bats! It should go. There is nothing wrong

with it. He wants it to go. What about people who think that page

three should be banned? Idiots. Do you know a girl called Lacey, aged

22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. I do not know her as a person that I

have heard she is nice. What about her decision to be on page three?

Nothing to lose. Do you think she has made Bedford proud? That is not

hard. What have we learned? More people want page three to stay down

for it to go. Most people do not really seem to care, do they? You

have heard a range of views. I am not arguing it should be banned I

have not argued for it to be banned but I have disapproved of it since

the 1970s. You do not think it should be banned? I do not think

there should be dictating content but I do think, if you arrive from

outer space in this country in 21st-century Britain, and asked

yourself what was the role of women in society... To stand in their

knickers and nothing else, I think women have more to aspire to than to

be able to take their clothes off in public. The sun no longer has the

circulation, or the political importance, that it had in the 980s

when page three was at its height. Aren't people just voting with their

feet anyway? The market is sorting this out. Half the number of people

buy it now than they did 20 years ago. Until the time the sun does not

have page three any more, I am entitled to my view that it is

outdated and wrong. I am happy to establish that you do not want to

ban it. What should happen? Should people boycott the paper? I have

never implied or said it should be banned. I have always been

forthright. Should people boycott the paper? I have not called for a

boycott. The women's movement, of which I am part, and this is not

about politicians censoring the press. I am part of the movement

which says women can do better than taking off their clothes and being

in their knickers in the newspapers. Why don't you do something about it?

I am doing something about it by saying it is outdated. I am not

doing anything more about it. Should people buy the paper as long as

there is a page three? Would you like to say to viewers, as long as

page three is in the sand, you should not buy it? Dashes-macro be

Son. I am saying, wake up to what the role of women in society should

be, which is more than page three. If they changed it in Australia

which is where Rupert Murdoch came from, why can they not change it in

this country? You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just

over 20 minutes... I'll be talking to man leading the campaign for

I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up in the North West: One year into the job,

how well do you know your police commissioner and what do they do?

Nothing at all, I'm sorry. I don't know. I have no idea. They get a lot

of money to doing very little, very likely.

We have not one but two police commissioners this week.

Merseyside's Jane Kennedy and Cheshire's John Dwyer.

One year on now, almost, what has been the big challenge for you?

Working with the budget. For the first time we have been able to

begin recruiting but that is because I have been able to reduce the cost

of oversight. I have taken about ?700,000 in a year out of that cost.

All of that money goes straight back into the police budget. The police

force has been able to feel recruit again because of that. What has been

the big challenge in Cheshire? Exactly the same. We had a ten week

window to prepare our police and crime plan and a budget to go with

it, and I had to find ?8.3 million savings. We did that by looking at

ways to deliver policing slightly differently and those challenges

still go on because it is fair to say we are facing challenges in

budget cuts again this year. Those challenges are still there and we

are trying to get the best value for money by delivering the service in a

better way. Well this week, their counterpart in

Greater Manchester, Tony Lloyd, supported a scheme to reduce

domestic violence. Specialists are employed in hospitals where they can

keep an eye open for possible victims. It follows a rise in the

number of cases last year, as Claire Hamilton reports. Arriving at

hospital can be traumatic, especially if you have been abused

by your partner. I didn't quite know what hell I could or should have, I

just knew I had to speak to somebody. This pilot scheme is

offering practical help. Trained staff can spot the signs of domestic

abuse and refer patients to other services. It is about giving them

the training and the tools to identify patients that might be more

subtle than they would be in an A department. This is part of the

range of schemes to improve the experience for victims of domestic

abuse. This is where they come to have treatment, and to help them to

come from domestic abuse in their own life I think is a very good

approach. Part of the remit of the PCC is to put victims of crime at

the centre of their plans. Tony Lloyd has done what he said he would

do, which is to set up a forum for witnesses and victims. If it

succeeds, this scheme will be rolled out to other hospitals in greater

Manchester. John, one of the big roles for you

is to set the priorities of the force. Have you changed them for

Cheshire at all? I have. This is certainly a priority for me, in fact

victims across the board are priority for me. We represent the

population, we are the public on the inside of the police service. We

need to make sure the plan reflects the needs of the public we

represent. I have invested ?100 000 in a holistic approach to dealing

with domestic violence, where we are dealing with families and these

families have implications not just for the police but for the health

service and indeed other agencies so we hope that we can impact on that

working together. These are the programmes we are developing across

the board for the people of Cheshire. Have you changed

priorities, Jane? Not dramatically, but I have changed the priority

given to hate crime. We have units focusing on hate crime within

Merseyside, but broadly working along the same priorities which is

what the people of Merseyside wanted. When you choose priorities,

are you guided by what the chief constable says? No, I think the

greatest influence comes from the public. When you listen to them and

their priorities, expressed through the various forms of communication

we have, whether it be public meetings or social media, the focus

has been on tackling serious and violent crime, none of it is rocket

science and it is not broadly different to other areas of the

region. Commissioners look after the finances. So let's take a look at

recent budget cuts. According to Her Majesty's Inspectorate of

Constabulary, Greater Manchester Police has to make cuts of ?141

million by 2015 and will have more than 1,500 fewer officers compared

with 2010. Merseyside Police will have saved ?62 million and lost 516

officers. Elsewhere in the region, Cumbria's budget will be down by ?17

million, reducing officer numbers by 104. Lancashire expects its total to

reach ?43 million and 525 officers and in Cheshire, it's ?37 million

and 241 officers. And those budget cuts will grow by 2017. To help fill

the shortfall, all the forces recently increased their bit of your

council tax bill. Eric Pickles was not very pleased with you for

putting council tax up, was he? I was not going to toe the party line,

I thought I would do what was best for the people of Cheshire. He said

that you were a democracy dodger, putting it up by 1.99% to avoid a

referendum. I have a lot of time for Eric but on this week deferred and

since then we have been working hard to make sure the budget in Cheshire

delivers the things the people in Cheshire want. You put up council

tax by the same amount. I did, we have a responsibility not to

overburden people with council tax rises which are either unnecessary

or not spent efficiently. Secondary to the force itself to make sure

they have the resources they need to deliver what the public expect. We

also have a responsibility, as he said, two responsibilities. Do you

think there is a distinction between being a Labour emission and a

conservative Commissioner? I am not finding differences, we are

wrestling with very similar problems. The scale of the problems

might be different. In Merseyside I know we are facing a greater scale

of cuts. When a flat rate percentage reduction is made, it hits

Merseyside harder than Cheshire simply because of the structure of

the grants. And you are considering sharing resources, tell me about

that. We are discussing collaboration. Some of the backrooms

like HR and finance, you don't need to do it 43 ways across the country

so we are looking at ways we can work together and actually make

savings which can be reinvesting in the sharp end. So you are keen to

push that through? Absolutely, we are already doing this and it is

working very well. Jane, is that something you are keen on as well? I

am looking at it. I will not have collaboration just for the sake of

it because it happens to be the flavour of the month. It is about

the quality of service we can get for the money we are investing in

it, and when our constituents are hard pressed facing cuts in their

benefits or increases in the cost of living, it is our responsibility to

get it as sensibly funded and well spent as possible. The important

message is that we are talking about it and party politics has not raised

its head at all. Let's talk about Cumbria's Police Commissioner next.

Richard Rhodes had a tricky moment this year when he was forced to

apologise for spending ?700 on two chauffeured car journeys. Police

investigated the leak which led to concern about protecting

whistle`blowers. Our reporter Stuart Pollitt has been on his trail

finding out more about what police commissioners actually do. The first

elections appear to have been marked by indifference... Police

commissioners will be responsible for holding police forces to

account. They have been in place for a year now but how much do you know

about what your police and crime commission does? After all, less

than two out of every ten people bothered to vote for them. I have

come to Cumbria police's headquarters to find out more. Thank

you for having us today. Welcome. Retired headmaster, Richard Rhodes,

the Conservative candidate, was elected as Cumbria's PCC last year.

His first task today is to hold a monthly public meeting questioning

Cumbria's chief constable. We seem to be experiencing fairly

significant levels of absence. I wonder if you would like to comment

on that... What is the purpose of what we have seen this morning? The

police and crime Commissioner should be the voice of the people in

determining constabulary policy I don't have any influence over

operational matters but of course the police and crime Commissioner

does have the power of the purse. So are you confident you can maintain

resources in the light of further cuts in funding? Insofar as knowing

what they are likely to be, yes What is your biggest challenge in

this role? Finding out what is going on in Cumbria. Do the people around

Kendall's market know much about him? Do you know who yours is? No

idea. Do you know what he does? Getting a lot of money is doing very

little, likely. Have you heard of police crime Commissioner? Yes. Do

you know much about Richard Rhodes? No, but there has been a lot of

huffing and puffing about his expenses. Famous for claiming ? 00,

which he later paid back, for two chauffeur`driven trips to meetings

in Ambleside and Bassenthwaite. Do you think it has done damage to

yourself? It was a genuine mistake but I have put it right and in that

context, yes I think it has been overplayed. The residents are

reluctant to phone the 101 number. There is also an issue of youngsters

raising concerns. Hopefully there is an outlet where Richard can do

things about it and I hope that is the case. Are you still convinced

his role as a good idea? There is a long way to go but potentially, yes,

his job could be extremely significant.

And we're joined now by Mick Gradwell, a former Detective

Superintendent with Lancashire Police. How well are these police

commissioners working? There are concerns it has politicised the

police. That worries people, it disinfects some people. You have

also got the feeling from police officers that may be the

commissioners are not standing up to fight the austerity cuts. There is a

great worry about the level of response policing out there. If the

public knew about how many officers there are out at particular times of

the day, they would be terrified. What about commissioners getting

involved in operational issues? Basically, they come with their

party colours and they can turn off certain communities. In terms of

operational policing, I have heard things from divisional commanders

who have some of the main goals as the police and crime commissioners

and they feel they have an ally in going from their resources and for

the first time they feel they have support to get the right priorities

to help them. It has been a very difficult year for your former force

in Lancashire. In a way, the police and crime Commissioner has become a

lame duck. Because of questions about his expenses occurred before

he became a Commissioner? Yes, that is what he is known for and it takes

away from the vital job he is doing. He would say, hang on, I haven't

been charged with anything yet. It is just one of those things, years

in this position and it appears he cannot do his own expenses. Do you

think he should resign? No, we don't know what the outcome will be. Let's

give him a chance. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Let's

see what the response is to the outcome of the investigation. When

you look at the commissioners who have got into trouble, neither of

those were former politicians. Do you think being a former politician

helps? In some respects. It has given me an idea of public

expectation. I am more cautious and aware of areas of likely public

criticism. The pressure is on all of us. I think it has been a much more

time pressured job than I expected. At the same time, it is hugely

rewarding to do, as Richard has been doing, meeting people on the

streets, sitting with the police in their meetings, listening to them

engaging with the public. It is fantastic work they are doing and it

gives us a chance to listen to the public and have the police response.

You are former police constable yourself, has that been a positive

or a hindrance? I think it is a positive because I understand how

the police think and there has been no attempt to pull the wool over my

eyes. It has allowed me to articulate the point in terms of

detection rates for burglary, for example. They have risen to the

challenge of increasing the rate of detection for burglary. My weeks

consist of five 12`hour days. Let's look at how much our commissioners

are costing compared with the police authorities they replaced. In each

county the cost has dropped, ranging from more than 30% in Merseyside,

20% in Greater Manchester and 1 % in Cumbria to five in Cheshire and

Lancashire. And the commissioners' salaries also vary quite widely

Tony Lloyd in Manchester is the best paid ` he's on ?100,000 a year,

compared with Richard Rhodes in Cumbria, who earns ?65,000 by

comparison. Jane, I remember you saying that one

of your main targets was to reduce the cost of the office. You have

achieved that. I have done that we now have a clear agenda, we are

well`established, but we have saved the force year on year, the police

budget will have less money taken out of it for the cost of oversight

but I believe get better oversight as a result. Your critics say you

have reduced the cost but the expense of being able to do your

job, at the expense of that. Interestingly, from what Nick was

saying earlier, having been a politician, I can have meetings as

you saw Richard Rhodes having with the whole senior team, going in

detail through the performance of the force which the police authority

used to take several committees over a long period of time with mountains

of paperwork to achieve the same result. You are getting just as

incisive and detailed scrutiny now. In my force you had to persuade 17

members, and now it is only me that has to be persuaded, and equally I

am producing initiatives, saying to them this is what the people of

Cheshire want you to do. I want people to understand that our job is

not the same as the old police authority. We are not just

overseeing the police, we have other responsibilities as well. Are you

more reassured about the way this has gone the you were before? No, I

think it is too big a job and you need somebody with ideally political

and policing experience. All in one person. The better the experience,

the better it is, but it is too much power in one person. Time for the

rest of the week's news now. Here's Euan Doak with 60 seconds.

Calls this week for a Lancashire councillor to resign after attending

a Downing Street party while wanted for questioning over a murder in

Pakistan. Abdul Aziz couldn't be reached but has previously said he

was in England at the time of the killing.

More controversy at Lancashire county council ` this time a damning

report into the procurement of a telecoms contract involving a

"fundamental lack of transparency". Liverpool is asking the Government

to ban fixed`odds betting terminals or give councils powers to take

action. The council is the first in the country to vote for a ban. It is

not good for Liverpool and it is a huge amount taken out of the

economy. Sean Woods has said he will be stepping down.

And a petition against plans to build flats on the Summerland site

was handed in to the Manx Government. The leisure complex

burnt to the ground in 1973, killing 50 people.

Jane, what do you make of the idea about tighter controls of gambling?

I think it is a good idea and I hope the Government will listen to what

the councillors are saying. Very strongly supported across the

county. I think it will help to cut crime. I go with that as well. Any

tightening up of the regulations is fine, and equally tightening up of

money lending is important because we know that in the main it is

disadvantaged families getting subjected to excessive borrowing. It

is bad news so if we can do something to help, that would be

great. Just time to thank Jane and John for joining me this week.

more equipment so they can see cyclists. Back to you, Andrew.

We learned this week that no more warships will be built at

Portsmouth, the home of the Royal Navy since the days of the Mary Rose

and Francis Drake. But has the city been sacrificed to save jobs on the

Clyde in Scotland? Is England the loser in an effort to keep the

United Kingdom intact? Let's speak to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign

for an English Parliament. Is England the loser in this attempt to

doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English

Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to

stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best

outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?

We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is

an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the

people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for

independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be

dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without

true representation. The union continues but it continues without

Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional

position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional

position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We

want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained

or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.

Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If

that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,

it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the

union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by

England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,

wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny

list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to

the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very

concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched

British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable

situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with

Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about

trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile

situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation

separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and

Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I

want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were

sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to

remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.

Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become

a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England

to have their representation - representation that looks at

policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern

Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way

forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system

might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you

want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is

implement the process is to get their representation for England. I

would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way

to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.

Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the

British government is trying desperately to save the union by

giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this

business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been

pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the

union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a

disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a

minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow

its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to

admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be

dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a

Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a

killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in

this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.

And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial

area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has

backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in

Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English

nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist

in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed

to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to

win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to

imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more

autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David

Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any

vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,

you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is

economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the

United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this

government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of

being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case

of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave

That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you

like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you

happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last

week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He

said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,

what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll

hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I

have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?

Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used

drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years

ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few

times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I

tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around

you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that

get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession

by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once

smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that

she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about

them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not

deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant

to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat

his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a

generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went

through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables

and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely

honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy

is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was

saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet

Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,

you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you

cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing

and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is

enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair

or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be

mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There

was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He

was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the

line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.

Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will

surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes

on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those

who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.

The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,

early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages

will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not

be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this

trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very

careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a

certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled

before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory

strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement

or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.

-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions

about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.

They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be

surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it

is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be

cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two

at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.