08/12/2013 Sunday Politics North West

The morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. First, some Sunday

morning cheer, if you are an MP that is. You are set to get an 1%

pay rise. The Chancellor has gone from zero to hero for some, who

credit him for turning the economy around. We will be taking a fine

tooth comb to his Autumn Statement. Should this man get a pay rise?

Complete denial about the central facts... And 11% pay rise for Ed

Balls? He was certainly working hard to be heard last Thursday. We will

be reviewing his performance. What about this man? We will be joined by

England's And in the North West.

Balancing the books by stopping us reading them. Critics round on the

latest council to close its libraries. I'll be speaking to its

leader. had on the capital, its politics and

those who met him. With me, three scruffy eternal

students. They would celebrate if they achieved a C+. But they are all

we could afford and there will be no pay rise for them. They will be

glued to an electronic device throughout the programme and if we

are lucky they might stop there internet shopping and tweet

something intelligent. But don't hold your breath. Janan Ganesh,

Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. Last week, storms were battering Britain,

the East Coast was hit by the worst tidal surge in more than a century,

thousands of people had to be evacuated and Nelson Mandela died.

The downed the news agenda was the small matter of George Osborne's

Autumn Statement. His giveaways his takeaways and his first opportunity

to announce some economic cheer It might be winter outside, but in

the studios it is awesome. Autumn Statement time. -- autumn. This is a

moment of TV history. Normally when the Chancellor delivers these

statements, he has to say the economy is actually a lot worse than

everyone predicted. This time, he can stand up and say the economy is

better than everybody predicted A lot better.

Britain is currently growing faster than any other major advanced

economy. Faster than France, which is contracting, faster than Germany,

faster even than America. At this Autumn Statement last year, there

were repeated predictions that borrowing would go up. Instead,

borrowing is down, and down significantly more than forecast.

But George Osborne said the good numbers still mean more tough

decisions. We will not give up in giving in our country's debts. We

will not spend the money from lower borrowing. We will not squander the

harder and games of the British people. -- hard earned gains. In

other news, further cuts to government departments. The state

pension age will increase in the 2040s, affecting people in their 40s

now. There were some goodies, like discounted business rates for small

businesses, free school meals for infants, favoured by the Lib Dems,

and those marriage tax breaks below that by the Tories. But, as with all

big fiscal events, it takes a while for the details to sink in.

The marriage tax allowance is a long-standing commitment that he

could not abandon. It does help those families were only one goes

out to work. It does not go to higher rate taxpayers, I don't

think. Perhaps it does, I can't remember. It makes me feel guilty, I

am taking them very seriously, but... Shall I give you them? There

is the Autumn Statement. Have that, a free gift from the Sunday

Politics. Is there no limit to the generosity of the BBC?

In the meantime, Twitter was awash with unflattering pictures of a

red-faced Ed Balls giving his response. Some pictures were more

than flattering than others. Is Ed Balls OK? Should we be worrying

about him? He looks very stressed. There is nothing to worry about in

terms of Ed balls and his analysis. He and Ed Miliband have been setting

the pace in terms of the focus on the living standards crisis. It was

very telling that there was not a mention of living standards last

time, we got 12 mentions this time. Never mind what he was saying, by

now everybody has a copy of the all-important paperwork. Time to

hand over to number cruncher extraordinaire Paul Johnson from the

Institute for Fiscal Studies. Of course it means that things are

significantly better this year and next than we thought they would be

just nine months ago. That has got to be good news. But it is also

worth looking at the growth figures a few years out. They have been

revised down a little bit. The reason is, the view of the office of

budget response ability is that the long run has not really changed very

much. We are getting a bit more growth now, but their view is that

it is at the cost of a little bit of the growth we will expect in the

years after the next general election. As the day draws to a

close, the one place there has definitely been no growth is the

graphics budget of my colleague Robert Preston. It's as good as it

gets these days, I don't think the viewers will mind. It's very Sunday

Politics, if I might say. That is very worrying.

Was this a watershed for George Osborne? Was it a watershed for Ed

Balls? We can all make the case that it is the wrong sort of recovery, a

consumer led recovery. People are spending money they don't have. At

the end of the day, it for George Osborne, it is growth, the first

time he has been able to talk about growth. It allows him to control the

baseline, the fiscal debate for the next generation. For Ed Balls,

nearly not a good performance. But don't write this man off. Judging by

Twitter, Iain Dale, no friend of it all is, said he did a good interview

this morning on a rival TV channel. I feel the fact that the Tories hate

Ed Balls so passionately is probably a good reason that they should hang

onto him, in that Labour sends his effectiveness. May be the Tories

hope that they hold on to him as well? A lot of people shouting at

someone and mocking their speech impediment, that is politics that

doesn't make me want to engage. The takeaway will be lots of people

thinking that none of these people are people they like. Who is the

main heckler on the Labour front bench West remarked I suppose he

can't cast any stones. It would be easier to sympathise with him, if it

were not that David Cameron went through a similar situation and John

Bercow did not step in to stop the wall of noise. It was guaranteed a

good happen to a Labour politician. It's painful to remove him because

he had a Parliamentary following and he will kick up a fuss. I think he's

much more pragmatic on issues like business than Ed Miliband. I'm told

he wasn't keen on the energy price freeze. The problem with Ed Balls,

to have the first words that you say, the Chancellor is in denial,

after he is presiding over growth, it means nobody is listening to you.

Who would replace him? Certainly not Alistair Darling, the side of the

referendum and even afterwards. Ed Balls did get a roasting in the

press and on Twitter. He seemed to disappear from public view following

the Autumn Statement. But a little bird tells me he managed one

interview this morning before he went off to an all-important piano

recital this afternoon. Watch out, Jools Holland, he could be after

your job. How bad was his performance on Thursday? Here is the

Shadow Chancellor in action. The Chancellor is incomplete denial

about the central facts that are defining this government in office.

He used to say he would balance the books in 2015. Now he wants us to

congratulate him for saying he will do it in 2019, Mr Speaker. With this

government, it is clearly not just the badgers that move the goalposts.

No mention of the universal credit in the statement. IDS, in deep

shambles, Mr Speaker. Chris Leslie is the Shadow Chief Secretary to the

Treasury. He is Ed Balls's deputy, in other words. Why do more and more

of your Labour colleagues think that your boss is below the water line?

I'm not sure I accept the premise of your suggestion. I don't think my

colleagues believe that George Osborne has a superior argument I

think Ed Balls will certainly trying his best, loud and clear, to make

the case there is a cost of living crisis in this country and the

Chancellor doesn't understand this. That was essentially the heat of the

debate on the Autumn Statement day. One leading Labour MPs said to me

that Ed Balls is always looking back, fixated with the rear-view

mirror, that was the exact quote. A Labour MP told Sky News, Labour has

a strong argument to make, unfortunately it was not made well

in the chamber today. Quoting the Daily Mail, this is two poor

performances. A quote that I can't use because it uses too many four

letter words. Baroness Armstrong, speaking at Progress, a former

Labour Cabinet minister, we are not sufficiently concerned about public

spending, how we would pay for what we are talking about. Quite a

battering? There were two sets of quotes you were giving. The couple

were about the strategy for tackling public expenditure. I think it's

fair that we talk about that. The rest were pretty unattributed,

nameless sources. You have never given and of the record briefing? We

have conversations off camera, but I don't think you have a wealth of

evidence to say that somehow Ed Balls's arguments were wrong. He was

making the point that, ultimately, it is a government that does not

have its finger on the pulse about what most of your viewers are

concerned about, that wages are being squeezed and prices are

getting higher and higher. You have had time to study the Autumn

Statement. What part of it does Labour disagree with? It is a very

big question. I think the overall strategy the Autumn Statement is

setting out does not deal with the fundamental problems in the economy.

What measures do you disagree with? A lot of it is the absence of

measures we would have put in if we were doing the Autumn Statement If

you are going to deal with the cost of living crisis, you have got to

get productivity levels up in our society. One of the best ways of

doing that is on infrastructure We believe in bringing forward 's

investment and housing, getting some of the fundamentals right in our

economy. By planting, the business lending we have to do. We have seen

a lamentable failing. There are big structural reforms that we need

Ultimately, the public are concerned about the cost of living crisis

That has got to be childcare help, a 10p starting rate of tax. Above

all, and energy price freeze, which still this government are refusing

to do. On Friday, you told me you supported the principle of a welfare

cap. But you change bling claim the Chancellor's cap included pensions.

You have now seen the figures, and it does not include pensions,

correct? We do want a welfare cap. The government have said they are

going to put more detail on this in the March budget. But it does not

include pensions? We think they have a short term approach to the welfare

cap. They put in some pension benefits. The state pension is not

in the short-term plan because, as we believe, a triple lock is a good

idea. In the longer term, if you are talking about structural welfare

issues, you do have to think about pensions because they have to be

sustainable if we are living longer. I think that is about the

careful management. Let me show you what Ed Balls said on this programme

at the start of the summer. As for pensioners, I think this is a real

question. George Osborne is going to announce his cap in two weeks time.

I don't know if he will exclude pension spending or including. Our

plan is to include it. Pension spending would be included in the

welfare cap? That is our plan, exactly what I just said. Over the

long-term, if you have a serious welfare cap structural welfare

issues, over 20, 30, 40 year period, you can't say that we will

not work and pensions as part of that. Pensions would be part of the

Labour cap? In the longer term. What is the longer term? If you win 015?

We want to stick with the triple lock on the pension, that is the

Government approach to their short-term welfare cap. In the

longer term, for example, on the winter fuel allowance, we should not

necessarily be... There are lots of benefits... I understand that, I am

talking about the basic state pension, is that part of your

welfare cap or not? In a 20, 30 40 year frame... Even you will not be

around in government, then. You are writing me off already. You have to

focus on welfare changes, pensions have to be affordable as part of

that. It's dangerous to say, well, if you are going to have a serious

welfare cap, we should not look at pensions cost. It would be

irresponsible. Will pensions be part of the cap from 2015 until 2020 if

Labour is in power? In our long term cap we have to make sure... I'm

talking about 2015-16. We haven t seen the proposition the Government

has put before us. You claim people of ?1600 worse off

under the coalition. That is true when you compare to pay and prices.

Can you confirm that calculation does not include the ?700 tax cut

from raising the income tax threshold, huge savings on mortgages

because of low interest or the freezing of council tax? It doesn't

include the tax and benefit changes. If you do want to look at

those, last year, the ISS said they could be making people worse off. It

might not include those factors The VAT increase, tax credit cuts, child

benefit cuts, they all add up. My understanding is that the ISS

figures have said people are ?8 1 worse off if you look at the tax and

benefit changes since 2010. You have to look at wages and prices. The ISS

confirmed our approach was broadly the right way of assessing what is

happening. The Chancellor was saying, real household disposable

incomes are rising. He is completely out of touch. Can you sum up the

macro economic policy for Labour? Invest in the future, make sure we

have the right approach for the long-term politicking. Tackle the

cost of living crisis people are facing.

Now, let's talk to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Sajid

Javid. Discovery, underpinned by rising

house prices, increasing personal debt, do you accept that is

unsustainable? I accept the OBE are also said the

reason why this country is facing more these challenges -- OBR.

That is because we went through a Labour recession, the worst we have

seen in 100 years. But do you accept that a recovery underpinned by these

things I have just read out isn t sustainable? We set out a long-term

plan for recovery, and again this week. We have shown with the tough

decisions we have made already, the country can enjoy a recovery. There

are still a lot of difficult decisions. The biggest risk are

Labour's plans. The March projections work at for those - for

both business investment and exports. Suddenly it is expected to

rise 5% next year, a 10% turnaround in investment. How is it credible? I

have been in business before politics. Any business person

listening will know, when you have gone through a recession, the

deepest in 100 years, it will hit investment, profits, you can't make

plans again until you have confidence in the economy. That is

what this country is seeing now under this government. This is an

assumption made independently. The fall in business investment is

because of the recession. The forecast increases, 5% next year,

and so on, it is based on the independent forecast. Based on fact.

If you look at the investment plans of companies, this week, the

Chancellor went to JCB, Jaguar Land Rover has plans to create more

jobs, these investment plans are coming through now because of the

confidence generated by this government, such as the cut in

corporation tax which Labour would increase. Are the export forecasts

more credible? The 15 years, our share of world trade decline.

Suddenly starting next year, it stops falling. That's not credible.

I worked in finance the 20 years. I have yet to find any forecast which

is fully right. Under Labour, we would have forecasts made by Gordon

Brown who would announce he would hit all his targets. Now we have an

independent system. Do you accept, if exports or

business investment do not pick up, then a purely consumer led recovery

is not sustainable? We need more than a consumer led recovery. We

need consumer investment to go up. On Xbox, it is noticeable that

experts are primarily down because the markets we trade with, the

eurozone markets, are depressed Many have just come out of

recession. Or they are still in recession. If you look at exports to

non-EU countries, they are up 3 %. 120% to China. 100% to Russia.

Will you keep the triple lock for the state pension beyond 2015? Yes,

long term. That's why it is not part of our welfare cap. Chris Leslie

cannot answer that question. It is straightforward.

House prices are now rising ten times faster than average earnings.

That's not good. House prices are rising, partly reflecting recovery.

Ten times faster than average earnings, how can people afford to

buy homes if it carries on? What you would hope, this is the evidence, if

you look at the plans of the month companies, they are planning new

homes which will mean that, as this demand spurs that investment, more

homes will come about. We need to give people the means to buy those

homes. We have introduced the help to buy scheme. I accept the OBR says

it will start rising again but as household debt rises again Petr Cech

reduces, -- as household debt reduces, we need to make sure there

are checks in place. Wages have not been rising in real terms for quite

some time. Over the next five years, even as the economy grows, by about

15% according the OBR to the OBR -- but people will not benefit. These

hard-working families will not share in the recovery. What is the best

way to help those families? The government doesn't set wages. What

we can do is influence the overall economy. We don't have a magic

lever. Wages have been stagnating for five years. When will people get

a proper salary? The best way for wage growth is a growing economy,

more jobs. We have more people employed in Britain today than at

any time in our history. The biggest risk to recovery is if we let Labour

into the Treasury with more spending and more debt. Which got us into

this trouble. By whatever measure you care to choose, would people be

better off come the 20 15th election than they were in 2010? Yes, they

will be. Look at jobs. Already more people employed than at any other

time in history. Will they be better off? The best way for anyone to

raise their living standards is access to a growing job market. But

will they be better off? I believe people will be. Compared to 201 .

Yes. In terms of take-home pay. This is a credible measure.

Now, what do you think the Education Secretary, Michael Gove, was like at

school? Hard-working? Hand always up? Top of the class? Well, if he

wasn't passionate about education then, he is now. In fact, since he

took office, it seems he hasn't stopped working very hard indeed.

When the coalition came to power, Michael Gove evoked Mao, saying they

were on a long march to reform education. Just like Mao, they faced

a baby boom, so pledged ?5 billion for new school places. They extended

Labour's academy programme. There's now about 3,000 in England. But

then, they marched even further creating free schools run by

parents, funded by taxpayers. 1 4 have opened so far. The schools

admission code was changed, to give parents more choice.

And a pupil premium was introduced, currently, an extra ?900 funding for

each disadvantaged child. An overhaul of the national

curriculum provoked criticism. Chairman Gove mocked detractors as

"bad academia". But exam reforms didn't quite go to plan. Although

GCSEs got harder, plans to replace A-levels had to be abandoned.

Ultimately, the true test of these reforms will be what happens in the

classroom. The person in charge of making sure those classrooms are up

to scratch in England is the Chief Inspector Of Schools, head of

Ofsted, Michael Wilshaw, who joins me now.

Over the past 15 years, we have doubled spending on schools even

allowing for inflation. By international standards, we are

stagnating, why? I said last year that mediocrity had settled into the

system. Too many children were coasting in schools, which is why we

changed the grading structure, we removed that awful word,

satisfactory. Saying that good is now the only acceptable standard and

schools had a limited time in which to get to that. We are seeing

gradually, it is difficult to say this in the week we have had the

OECD report. Things have gradually improved. I will come onto that in a

minute. Explain this. International comparisons show us flat-lining or

even falling in some subjects, including science. For 20 years our

domestic exam results just got better and better. Was this a piece

of fiction fed to us by the educational establishment, was there

a cover-up? There is no question there has grade inflation. I speak

as an ex-headteacher who saw that in examinations. Perceptual state is

actually doing something about that. Most good heads will say that is

about time. We have to be credible. Do politicians and educationalists

conspire in this grade inflation? It might suit politicians to say things

are going up every year. As a head, I knew a lot of the exams youngsters

were sitting were not up to scratch. The latest OECD study places us 36th

for maths, 23rd reading, slipping down to 21st in science. Yet,

Ofsted, your organisation, designates 80% of schools as good or

outstanding. That's another fiction. This year, we have. If we see this

level of progress, it has been a remarkable progress over the last

years since we changed our grading structure, then... In a year,

absolutely. We have better teachers coming into our school system.

Better leaders. Better schools. The big challenge for our country is

making sure that progress is maintained which will eventually

translate into better outcomes. These figures are pretty much

up-to-date. Are you saying within a year 80% of the schools are good

enough? All of the schools we upgraded have had better grades in

GCSE and grade 2. We have to make sure that is maintained. The

Government has based its reforms on similar reforms in Sweden. In

opposition they were endlessly going to Stockholm to find out how it was

done. Swedish schools are doing even worse than ours in the tables. Why

are we copying failure? The secretary of state believes, and I

actually believe, as somebody who has come from an academy model, that

if you hand power and resources you hand autonomy to the people on the

ground, to the people in the classroom, in the corridors, in the

playgrounds, things work. If you allow the great monoliths that used

to have responsibility for education in the past to take control again,

you will see a reverse in standards. You have got to actually empower

those people that make the difference. That is why autonomy and

freedom is important. We spent a lot of money moving what were local

authority schools to become academies and new free school czar

being set up as well. When the academies are pretty much the same

level of autonomy, the free school is maybe a little bit more, the

evidence we have had so far is that they don't really perform any better

than local authority schools? Indeed, Encore GCSE subjects, they

might even be doing worse? These are early days. We will say more about

this on weapons they when we produce the annual report. The sponsored

academies that took over the worst schools in the country, in the most

difficult circumstances, in the most disadvantaged communities, are doing

much better now. What about GCSE? They are doing GCSE equivalents the

lass academic subjects question my cull OK, but they are doing better

than previous schools. If you look at the top performing nations in the

world, they focus on the quality of teaching. The best graduates coming

to education. They professionally develop them. They make sure they

spot the brightest talents and get them into positions as soon as

possible. We have got to do the same if we are going to catch up with

those jurisdictions. This isn't just a British problem. It seems to be a

European problem. The East Asian countries now dominate the top of

the tables. What's the most important lesson we should learn

from East Asia? Attitudes to work. We need to make sure that we invest

in good teachers, good leaders. We have to make sure that students have

the right attitudes to work. It s no good getting good people into the

classroom and then seeing them part of teaching by bad behaviour,

disaffected youngsters and poor leadership. We see young teachers

doing well for a time and then being put off teaching and leaving from

that sort of culture in our schools. Are you a cheerleader for government

education policy rather than independent inspectors? I am

independent, Ofsted is independent. I believe we are saying the right

things on standards. The Association of teachers and lecturers say you

are an arm of government. The NUT has called for your resignation

Another wants to abolish or Inspectorate. Have you become a

pariah amongst teaching unions? If we are challenging schools to become

better, that is our job, we will carry on doing that. I am not going

to preside over the status quo. We will challenge the system to do

better, we will challenge schools and colleges to do better. We will

also challenge government when we think they are going wrong. Many

people in the education establishment think your primary

purpose is to do the Government s bidding by shepherding schools into

becoming academies. Not true at all. You are a big supporter of

academies? Yes, I believe the people that do the business in schools are

the people that are free to do what is necessary to raise standards I

am a big supporter of autonomy in the school system. But where we see

academies Vale, where we see free schools fail, we will say so. The

study does not find much evidence that competition and choice raise

standards, but it does go with you and say that strong school

leadership, coupled with autonomy, can make a difference. Can somebody

with no experience in education be in charge of a school? A lot of hot

air has been expounded on the issue of whether teachers should be

qualified or not. If qualified teacher status was the gold

standard, why is it that one in three teachers, one in three lessons

that will observe are not good enough. Taught by qualified

teachers. I've not yet met a headteacher that has not appointed

by qualified staff when they cannot get qualified teachers. Their job is

to make sure they get accredited as soon as possible and come up to

scratch in the classroom. Do you support the use of unqualified

teachers? I do. I have done it. If I could not get a maths, physics or

modern languages teacher and I thought somebody straight from

university, without qualified teachers start this, that they could

communicate well with youngsters, I would get that person into the

classroom and get them accredited if they delivered the goods. If we are

going to allow schools to have more autonomy and not be accountable to

local authorities, free schools academies, don't you have to do ..

New entrants will be coming into the market, the educational marketplace.

Do you not have to act more quickly when it is clear, and there has been

examined recently, where it is clearly going badly wrong and

children's education at risk? Absolutely. I made a point to the

secretary of state and it is something I will talk more about

over the coming year. We need to be in school is much more often. If a

school fails at the moment, or underperforms, goes into this new

category, Her Majesty 's inspectors stay with that institution until it

improves. Sometimes we don't see a school for five or seven years. That

is wrong. My argument is that Ofsted should pay a much greater part in

monitoring the performance of schools between those inspections.

Are you enjoying it? It is a tough job. Are you enjoying it? This is a

tough job, but I enjoy it. Sometimes.

You are watching Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes,

Diane Abbott will be joining us And we will

Hello, I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up in the North West: Thanks for the help,

but not the label. We get a rare look at the work being

done with our "troubled families". The Mac I did not think that was my

category, I just thought I was someone in need of help.

And joining me this week, the Liberal Democrat MP for Manchester

Withington, John Leech and the Labour MP for Bolton South East

Yasmin Qureshi. Welcome. John, an important week because we had the

mini budget, the Autumn statement. The government seems to be saying,

the economy is recovering but at a much slower rate than the word

previously promised. That is absolutely true, but at the same

time the forecasts are now improving again in the right direction. There

are some great things that came out of the Autumn statement, whether it

be to do with the young unemployed or small and medium`sized businesses

on this rates, and helping support young people with national insurance

contributions. A lot of great news on Thursday. Yasmin, does Labour now

accept that the government's economic plan is cutting the deficit

very hard was the right thing to do? The Autumn statement did nothing in

terms of generating in climate, it cut the business rate but that is

something that Labour has been arguing for 40 very long time, to

even freeze the business rate. You like that bit, at least. No more

than 2%, but we set fees it completely and create around one

million new start`up jobs. We set the agenda on this side the agenda

on their Sibelius and partly to say. There was nothing about the building

of homes in creating new jobs. The thing about families being able to

go back to work, in terms of having more free care. Let's have a quick

look at what the Chancellor had to say about the north`west. This week

we are announcing ?1 billion of loans to unblock large housing

developments on sites in Manchester and Leeds and across the country.

The new tax allowance to encourage investment in shale gas, that

harvest tax rate on early puppets. Will the government's popularity and

your own party's popularity pick`up by the economy recovers? I would

hope so. We have taken a hat in popularity as a result of going into

coalition with the Conservatives, in the north`west the Conservatives are

unpopular but people are beginning to recognise that we went into

coalition for the rate reasons, to try and sort out the economy, and

hopefully the economy is now reaping the Billiton 's. `` reaping the

benefits. I think there's Autumn statement has done a lot to help

employment, whether it be a reduction in business rates for

small businesses, whether it be half rates for an empty shop being

occupied by a new retail outlet or whether it be cutting national

insurance contributions for young people because there are still too

many young people unemployed. Yasmin, how much has it changed

things politically? I do not think it has changed things at all

politically, they talk about economic recovery but actually it is

a number crunchers recover, he recovered on paper but not in

reality. You cannot just dismiss that, because if the economy goes

from 0.6% growth to 2.4% growth that means more jobs. It does, but they

have created more zero`hour contracts, more passing jobs, very

low paid jobs, the average working family has lost around ?1600 per

year. Many low paid jobs. Let's move on. As we know, councils are

struggling to balance the books But it's the books themselves which have

toppled over in Sefton. The council's closed six of its 13

libraries. And this week rejected offers from community groups to take

over two of them. In a moment I ll be asking the leader of the council

whatever happened to the Big Society? But first, our very own

bookworm Claire Hamilton has the story.

This library in Crosby has been lending books for over 100 years,

funded by American philanthropist Andrew Carnegie, described as the

wretched man in the world that the time, the council provided the land

and local merchants bought the books. This week when its last. To

the left was the magazine room. . Beginning of the group hopes to take

over running it but they have been turned down. Throughout the process

it has been an adversarial nature, the council has been throwing

obstacles in our way every time and changing your opinion of what was

required that what was being promised. The council say plans to

keep this grade two listed building running as a library were based on

hopes and expectations, with no confirmation of financial support.

Finances have meant that since 011 19 libraries and 12 mobile libraries

have closed across the north`west, amenity groups have successfully

taken over 12 facilities but the pressure is not. Eating libraries

plus ten mobile libraries are under threat. The council are still going

to put insignificant amounts of money to make the own survival, and

if that goes wrong the council will end up spending more money, not less

if it goes ahead with the transfer. The council must be very careful.

Immunity plans to run in the library in Sefton were also rejected. They

are not getting as any credit for our experience of running businesses

where anybody setting up a new business would start with capital

cash amount and then move forward. Good news for one charity, their

plan to take over the Ainsdale building will move forward but it is

not clear how big a part in a lending library will play in the new

project. And we're joined from Liverpool by

the leader of Sefton Council, Peter Dowd. Thank you for being on the

programme. Why did you detect the two community bids? We had the

process starting early this year to, to gateways they were called in

some groups got the first date and others didn't. The second time the

groups did not get through the gateway. We have clear criteria

They were based on a number of factors and regrettably some of the

groups that not get through that process. There were only two in it,

what was the problem? There were four originally, 12, one got through

and to did not. We did not get through because they did not fulfil

the criteria in terms of primarily the finance, to begin with, and

there were other factors that came into it, staffing and

sustainability, so there was an objective assessment set`up and

regrettably he did not get through. Surely it is better to have given

them a chance that you have shut down the libraries completely? I

think what we have a responsibility to do is to ensure that when

organisations do take over public buildings that they are in the

position to sustain that. What we wanted them to be able to do is have

a sustainable and feasible alternative. It was not sustainable

as it was because you have shut them down, so with them at least there

was a chance of them staying open. I disagree and that is what the

criteria and assessment shows, that this would not be practical. One got

through so that proves and shows that the council was quite prepared.

If it was a sustainable and feasible, we would have allowed it

to happen. The idea that we actually rejected it out of hand or that we

have not given groups the opportunity is not correct.

Unfortunately that is what they feel because both groups have said that

Sefton Council, returning I presume to Sefton council officers, were

obstructive rather than helpful Is that concerning? I disagree that

they were obstructive, the disc `` the discussions went on for many

months, and the council was prepared to set aside money towards these

groups carrying on, so I disagree that it was obstructive. In the case

of the entry library, the parish council there was offering ?20, 00.

`` in tree library. That parish council is particularly angry that

the offer was not taken up. That was one of the factors taken into

account, they could not guarantee that one of the factors taken into

account, they could not guarantee that ongoing guarantee that the

funding would be there, we made the decision, taking all of the factors

into account including their offer, that it was not sustainable. The

ability for them to run it also was predicated on the fact that the

council would have given them over ?50,000 capital. The tag and

assessment, we did it as objectively as he possibly could and two of the

groups did not succeed. Let me pick up with John Leech. In my own

constituency, Bernard library was threatened with closure. It is

closed but it is now being run by local people and hopefully it will

be a great success. The council has agreed to let local people... Should

Sefton have allowed them to have a go? I would have thought that it

would have been reasonable to at least give local people a chance to

prove that they could do it is and prove that they could keep it open.

Because an open library, even if it is open for another 12 months or

another two years, is better than a close lightly. The main point that

Councillor don't would make is that they would not be closing any

libraries were not `` will it not for your government cutting funds to

local government. I cannot speak specific witty Sefton but in the

case of Manchester I would argue very strongly that Manchester could

have found ?42,000 to keep in its library open and it is about the

council's priorities. The famed money when they want to find money,

whether it is ?2 million from land in the city centre. We although that

local government budgets are being squeezed. Absolutely, budgets are

tight but it is about priorities. Manchester has plenty of resellers

`` plenty of reserves but the famed money for their pet projects.

Yasmin, should local community groups be allowed to have the

opportunity to run libraries? Of course they should be but only if

they can make a proper economic case for running it. As has been

mentioned by the leader of Sefton Council, I do not at the end and out

of the bed they have but we saw that it was not financially possible to

do so. Someone has been monies or the capacity and ability to run it

then they should be given the chance but I do not understand that the

council refused to do that, they just said that in the case of the

groups that its bid for it, they were not able to do the job. You

feel comfortable with that? I am not from Sefton. But from the council

are seeing here, they seem to have made a rational decision and they

have decided what is right for their particular banner. They have not

given them a chance. Let me pick up on that issue of Councillor Peter

Dowd. I am sure you have John Leech saying that, what was the problem

with at least giving them a chance? Even if it failed later, at least

they would have tried. We would not be here in the first place as

government had not cut the council by millions of pounds. It is

important to get this into context. The bottom line is we have to make

difficult decisions because his government cut us by millions of

pounds. We have had to make difficult decisions in that context

that one of those decisions is to close libraries. However, we have

given those clips the capacity and opportunity to bid to continue to

run and unfortunately they were not able to do that. I need to ASCII

again because I am not clear as to what would be the problem of

offering them the opportunity to go for it. If it feels it feels but at

least they tried. At the end of the day the council passes over public

property and public assets to groups who may or may not be able to run it

must be done in a rational way. It has to be done in an objective way.

If we did have the building over and it closed down in six or 12 months

and it was, it did not succeed, we would be criticised for not making

sure that this was a robust process. That is what we have tried to do.

One of those good has been able to show that they have a robust process

in the bin given the opportunity to do it. Where we can give local

organisations the opportunity, we will. In the very much indeed.

After the riots in 2011 the government started an ambitious

scheme to help 120,000 so`called "troubled families". Since then lots

of work has been done mainly supporting parents. But of course

it's sensitive and not done in public. But we've been able to

follow the team working in Cheshire West. Stuart Pollitt's been finding

out who the families are and whether they really do fall under one

umbrella. The phrase troubled families, one of

those sayings that politicians love, applies a something vague that you

cannot quite put your finger on You know the phrase I mean. These

hard`working people. We hold the liberal centre. High stakes for

working people. Those are the ones. As for troubled families, who are

they? Now the only trouble for Amiee and

her daughters is deciding who gets to do the dishes. A few years ago

she had a good job and strong family but had also become a victim of

domestic abuse. I was not coping. I thought I was but my functioning

mechanisms were slowly shutting down, really. I was not being a good

mother to the children. That's where someone like Gill steps in. We see

dozens of families so my job is to be the length person to make sure

they get irate agencies involved. The parents does not have to go

through problems over and over again to different agencies, she only has

to see it once. Help jumped on me, I did not know where to begin. I would

not be the person I am today if I did not receive the help. The

Government originally defined troubled families as those with all

of these problems. An involvement in youth crime or anti`social

behaviour. Children excluded or playing truant from school. An adult

on out`of`work benefits. And costing the public sector large sums in

responding to their problem. That criteria has been extended to others

like Amiee but it's a label she doesn't like. As soon as I feared

that troubled person, I think, maybe alcohol or drugs or abuse, I did not

think that was my category, I just thought I was someone in need of

help. There are those who believe that the scheme must take into

account wider issues. We must look at housing problems, questions about

poverty, questions of disability and mental health problems. The trouble

families agenda that the government puts forward does little to do that.

So how many so called troubled families are there in the region? In

total around 10,000, just 300 in Cheshire West and Chester but 1 500

in Manchester and more than 3,0 0 in Liverpool. To try and help some of

those 3,000 and more they're hiring workers to carry out early

intervention in partnership with primary schools. We know our

families and at the grassroots level we can target that intervention we

can use that resource flexibly when it is needed rather than waiting for

that we source to come along. A bit of Christmas spirit's broken out in

Manchester where the Labour council's been praised by Eric

Pickles for its work with 1,500 families but, with the scheme due to

end in 2016, there are concerns about the future. This is not a

problem we will have eliminated by 2016, so I think we do need to have

an agreement from government for an ongoing programme. You would expect

it to be smaller but it will be needed. Have you been getting the

resources you need? In the short term, yes, the long`term, no. And

with the figures showing only a quarter of those identified have had

their fortunes turned around will this scheme get the time, as well as

the money, to finish the job. Yasmin, what is your experience of

this programme? Bolton has around 850 families who need assistance in

the council has actually been doing really good work with the families.

They have been able to help many families with the issues of for

example, truancy, children committing crimes or parental issues

and things like that. Where they have been less successful has been

in terms of being able to find jobs for the adult members, there have

been cases where they have been unable to do that successfully. That

is not the councils fault, it is more to do with the economy

generally and issues of jobs. You think it is a shortcoming of the

programme, that it is not helping of people into employment? That is a

shortcoming of the programme, not helping people into employment, and

there are issues they have not addressed. As your eight showed

issues with mental health and poverty and things like that which

this does not really address. The do need to be tackled. What he is doing

is not bad. One of the problems is that with these so`called problem

families and I have surprised the family that was focused on was

described as a problem, as a troubled family, the problem is that

no two cases are exactly the same. In each family will meet individual

intervention. I find myself in a fairly uncommon position of

absolutely agreeing with the leader of Manchester City Council. This

scheme has been successful as far as it goes, and needs to be funded for

the long`term. In the even longer term, this will save a lot of money

for local authorities and national government. The criticisms that

Yasmin has picked up, that it has not been delivering in terms of

getting people into jobs? It needs better coordination between the work

done by local authorities and the work done by Jobcentre plus, and the

work programme. Because clearly there needs to be better interaction

between those two different agencies. So that once the get the

support from local authority also get the support he needs to get the

job. Have you found that this is something that is very much needed

in your constituency? Dot`mac it is, we have families with the

circumstances, children having difficulties and family members as

well, so any programmes, anything that helps to actually get the

family together, to deal with issues and the difficulties, is a good

thing. Don't you feel that the issues revolving around the fact

that sure start schemes are being closed, the fuel that this is the

best... They should that have been closed, because sure start helped

many families, especially with young children. We are fighting out

campaigning for them to be kept open. One of the problems is that

sure start schemes never focused on the families that we are referring

to, because it tended to be, people using sure start tended to be

families who actually want to be involved in things that are

happening in the local area, whereas the troubled families and problem

families it is more people who are not engaging with those facilities.

So, what else has been happening this week? Here's a round`up in 60

Seconds. Tributes were paid across the region

to Nelson Mandela. Flags flew at half mast at Liverpool Town Hall and

a book of condolence was opened Wonderful man. He has changed people

's lives, change the world. Lancashire's Chief Constable Steve

Finnigan says rising poverty and police cuts are leading to a rise in

crime. Police statistics are expected to show increases in theft

and burglary. The Labour MP for Barrow and Furness

John Woodcock has gone public about his struggle to overcome depression.

Proud past, uncertain future. More than a hundred historic buildings

across the region are at risk, according to English heritage. More

than a third of council Conservation Officers have lost their jobs in the

last few years. And plans to improve slipways on

Windermere have been thrown out by planners. South Lakeland council

wanted longer jetties and better facilities at Ferry Nab, but the

National Park Authority said no We can't let the weak goal without

mentioning the death of President Nelson Mandela. Yasmin, I'm at the

inspiration was he to you? A great inspiration, he taught us all how to

forgive and forget and how to bring peace and harmony. And how people

can forget things and try to move on and that is something that perhaps

all world leaders should take note of. John? My main memory is the

beginning to five Rugby World Cup and in celebrating with the South

African rugby team and he used the sport as a way of really reuniting

the country. As you only have to listen to the sort of tributes that

have come in from people who knew him personally to realise what an

impact he had on individual slides, but also the international

community. Much to live up to. Thank you both.

That's it for us until after Christmas. I'll be back on the 2th

of January. For now, I'll hand you back to Andrew Neil in London.

Tomorrow, the House of Commons will pay its tributes to Nelson Mandela.

Our nation has lost its greatest son. Our people have lost a father.

The first thing I ever did that involved an issue or policy, or

politics, was protest against apartheid.

I think his greatest legacy, to South Africa and to the world, is

the emphasis which he has always put on the need for a conciliation, on

the importance of human rights. He also made us understand that we can

change the world. We can change the world by changing attitudes, by

changing perceptions. For this reason, I would like to pay him

tribute as a great human being, who raised the standard of humanity

Thank you for the gift of Madiba. Thank you for what he has enabled us

to know we can become. We are joined now by the Labour MP

Diane Abbott. You met Mr Mandela not one after he was released from

prison in 1990. He went as an election observer for the first one

person, one-vote in South Africa. I would guess, of all the people you

met in your life, you must have been the most impressive and biggest

influence? He was extraordinary He had just come out of prison, 28

years in reason. He had seen a lot of his colleagues tortured, blown up

and killed. He was entirely without bitterness. That is what came

across. That was key to his achievement, to achieve a peaceful

transition. Everybody thought that if you have black majority rule you

might have a bloodbath. It's down to Nelson Mandela but didn't happen. I

remember FW de Klerk saying that Mandela was the key to getting a

peaceful transition. Absolutely the key, an amazing man. London was one

of the centres, people talked about it as being the other centre of the

anti-apartheid struggle. That anti-apartheid struggle in London,

it had an effect on black politics in Britain? Oh, yes. If you were

black and politically active at the time, the apartheid struggle, the

struggle against white supremacy in South Africa, was very important.

Whatever your colour, the anti-apartheid struggle, for our

generation, was the political campaign. We have the 50th

anniversary of Kennedy's assassination. Mr Mandela's death.

We are kind of running out of people that inspired us? I will never

forget where I was when I saw him come out of prison, hand-in-hand

with the women, I might add. If you have spent your whole teenage years

and 20 is boycotting, marching, picketing, to see him actually come

out was amazing. Do you think it was more exciting to meet you or the

Spice Girls? I think the Spice Girls. What did the Labour

backbenchers think about Ed Balls's performance after the Autumn

Statement? Luck, Ed Balls is a brilliant man, but I think even he

would say that it was not his best performance. But if you look at the

polls, the public liked the points he made. The backbenchers were

quiet, there was something wrong? I noticed that. It was like a wall of

sound, deliberately. They know that under pressure his stamina might

come back and it is difficult for him. That is what they were trying

to incite. I have had experience first hand, a look at all of these

anonymous and sometimes not anonymous quotes in the media. The

spinning has begun against him? This is the party of brotherly love, no

matter what the Tories say, we can say worse about each other. How

could it be that two former aides to Gordon Brown do not like each other?

Far be it from me to say. If he wanted to do it, and I'm not saying

he does, is Mr Miliband ruthless enough to get rid of Ed Balls? I

mean, he got rid of you, he got rid of his brother? One thing you should

not do is under estimate Ed Miliband's capacity for

ruthlessness. If he feels it is the right thing to do, he will do it.

It's not just a matter of... Ed Balls is a big, powerful

personality. He's great to interview because he is across his subject,

you can have a really good argument with him, a man that knows his

brief, his facts. But it's not just about the personality. There is a

kind of sense that Labour needs to look forwards more on economic

policy. Of course, the standard of living has been hugely successful

for Labour. But it needs more than that on economic policy? I think he

has been one of the most effective member 's Shadow Cabinet, and he's

always associated with the Brown years, where there is always an

element about, you were the guys that got it wrong. I think Ed

Miliband will be very tempted to replace him with Alistair Darling.

The scenario goes like this, Alistair Darling saves the union and

then in September he saves the Labour Party. Ultimately, I don t

think he would do it. Talk about shifting tectonic plates, it would,

wouldn't it? But it is a step too far. Ed Balls would not be too

happy. It is not something you would want to do lightly. That sounds a

bit of a threat. Not from you. I can't see Ed Balls magnanimously

retreating and say, go on, Alistair Darling, take the job I have been

after all career. Where do you put him? Do you make him a middle

ranking business or welfare secretary? He wouldn't do that. If

you sack him, he would retreat to the backbenchers. He might take up

knitting and practices piano scales, or he might have a blood feud with

Ed Miliband. I don't know which could be. You look back to when he

was schools Secretary, you could feel he was constantly fuming. I

think he is better inside the tent, looking out, than the other way

around. The thing one Labour strategist said to me was that he is

too much looking into the rear-view mirror, when it comes to economic

policy. He needs to look ahead through the windscreen. That had

some resonance? He was at the centre of Labour's economic policy-making

from the mid-90s. So it's hard for him but he has to look forward.

There is an interesting comparison with 2009. Gordon Brown got in

trouble when he said the choice is between Labour investment and Tory

cuts. Everybody knew it was between Labour cuts and Tory cuts. In other

words, he was not acknowledging reality. With Ed Balls, OK, we can

say it is the wrong sort of recovery, but there is a recovery.

Does he not need to absorb that punch and say there is a recovery,

then people will listen to him? Possibly. We know that the

macroeconomics are looking better. We also know people are not

experiencing it as a recovery in living standards. No one, not even

Tories, really believe that David Cameron knows what it is like for

middle-income people to live normal lives. Living standards is

particularly powerful because of the composition of the government? Don't

go away. This time last year we ambushed our political panel with a

quiz. They didn't come out of it smelling of roses, but they did come

out rather smelly. Will the coalition still be in place

a year from now? Yes. Definitely. I say definitely as well. From now,

one year, will we know the date of the European referendum? Yes. No. I

say no as well. How much growth will there be? Less than 1%. Father

Christmas is less qualified than me, but I will go for one. I will go for

a quarter of that. 0.4%. Sorry, a third of that. I am with you, and

1%. We didn't do too badly. What will growth be next year? I will

remind you, the OBR has upgraded to 2.4%. Better stick with the OBR got

it wrong last year. Well, they went down in March and then went back in

December. I'm going to go under and claim credit where it's higher. I'm

going to say 1%. Deliberately get it wrong. Given our record, if we say

there is going to be spectacular growth, does it mean we're going to

go into recession? There is incentive to be cautious. 2%. 2 4%,

because the housing market in London is rocketing. It would be closer to

3% and 2.4, mark my words. We'll Ed Balls be Shadow Chancellor by this

time next year? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, I value my life. Will UKIP mean the

European elections, by which I mean have the highest percentage of the

vote? Yes. Second behind Labour Second behind Labour. Will Alex

Salmond win the independence referendum? No, but it will be

closer than we think. No, unless they do something catastrophic like

let Cameron debate him. Too close to call. Controversial. How many

Romanians and Bulgarians will come to Britain in 2014? Far fewer than

anyone thinks. The entire population of Romania and Bulgaria, like Nigel

Farage thanks. I'll go with that, I'm confident. A change of tone for

your magazine. Not many will come, but a lot here already will

normalise and be counted into figures. Too many for most

right-wing commentators. I think quite a few will come, but not the

kind of numbers that made such a huge difference. This time,

everybody is open. They do like to speak English, that is the reason

they want to come. We'll all three of you still be here by this time

next year? Yes. Would you recommend that? Yes, keep them. And he has

lovely boots. Shiny red boots. If you can keep affording me, I will be

here. I hope so, it sounds like you have a firing squad outside. I hope

so, maybe you will find some true talent. Very pragmatic, aren't they?

Let me put this to you, I think you will agree. The coalition will not

break now, this side of the election next year? There will not be... They

will not go their own ways by this time next year? Of next year, maybe

just after. Early 2015. This side of the election? What is the UKIP view?

I don't think there is an advantage to either of them. If the Lib Dems

pulled out, they would look like there were a lodger in the Tory

house of government. I think it would suit the Lib Dems to break

just before the election. I think that is what Vince Cable wants to

do. I don't think it is what Nick Clegg would like to do. The Tories

would love it. They would have all of the toys to themselves. Yellow

marker they would look like the grown-ups. The problem for Vince

Cable is that he's not the force that used to be after his temper

tantrum at the Conference. I will be back with the Daily

Politics next week. If Santer gives you a diary in your stocking, pencil

in Sunday the 20th of January, the first Sunday Politics of 2014.

Remember, if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. Unless it is

Christmas. And New Year.