12/01/2014 Sunday Politics North West

Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the

coalition is fighting over cuts. Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance

the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he

will cut. That is the top story. Chris Grayling called for a

completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the

European Court of Human Rights. He joins me.

Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how

will they get a And in the North West, can we trust

our elections? Also, how fast fashion is hoping to take the

economy from rags to riches. But are they spinning us a yarn?

be serious. Have cuts left to the service being overstretched?

With me for the duration, a top trio of political pundits, Helen Lewis,

Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They will be tweeting faster than France

or long scoots through Paris. Nick Clegg sticks to his New Year

resolution to sock it to the Tories, the is how he described Tory plans

for another 12 billion of cuts on welfare after the next election.

You cannot say, as the Conservatives are, that we are all in it together

and then say that the welfare will not make any additional

contributions from their taxes if there is a Conservative government

after 2015 in the ongoing effort to balance the books. We are not even

going to ask that very wealthy people who have retired who have

benefits, paid for by the hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a

sacrifice. The Conservatives appear to be saying only the working age

pork will be asked to make additional sacrifices to fill the

remaining buckle in the public finances.

Nick Legg eating up on the Tories a, happens almost every day. I

understand it is called aggressive differentiation. Will it work for

them? It has not for the past two years. This began around the time of

the AV referendum campaign, that is what poisoned the relations between

the parties. They have been trying to differentiation since then, they

are still at barely 10% in the polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings

are horrendous, so I doubt they will do much before the next election. It

is interesting it has been combined with aggressive flirtation with Ed

Balls and the Labour Party. There was always going to be some sort of

rapprochement between them and the Labour Party, it is in the Labour

Party's interests, and it is intent macro's interests, not to be defined

as somebody who can only do deals with the centre-right. A colleague

of yours, Helen, told me there was more talk behind closed doors in the

Labour Party high command, they have to think about winning the election

in terms of being the largest party, but not necessarily an overall

majority. There is a feeling it was foolish before the last election not

to have any thought about what a coalition might be, but the language

has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I cannot deal with this man, but now,

I have to be prismatic, it is about principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick

Clegg had specifically said that Ed Balls was the man in politics that

he hated. He said that was just a joke. Of course, it is about

principles, not people! When Ed Balls said those nice things about

Nick Clegg, he said, I understood the need to get a credible deficit

reduction programme, although he said Nick Clegg went too far. The

thing about Nick Clegg, he feels liberated, he bears the wounds from

the early days of the coalition, and maybe those winds will haunt him all

the way to the general election. But he feels liberated, he says, we will

be the restraining influence on both the Conservatives, who cannot insure

that the recovery is fair, and the Labour Party, that do not have

economic red ability. He feels relaxed, and that is why he is

attacking the Tories and appearing pretty relaxed. He could also be

falling into a trap. The Tories think what they suggesting on

welfare cuts is possible. The more he attacks it, the more Tories will

say, if you gave us an overall majority, he is the one it. He keeps

taking these ostensibly on popular positions and it only makes sense

when you talk to them behind the scenes, they are going after a tiny

slice of the electorate, 20%, who are open to the idea of voting Lib

Dem, and their views are a bit more left liberal than the bulk of the

public. There is a perverse logic in them aggressively targeting that

section of voters. In the end, ten macro's problem, if you do not like

what this coalition has been doing, you will not vote for somebody who

was part of it, you will vote for the Labour Party. The Tories are too

nasty, Labour are to spendthrift, Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has

gone to Labour, and that is what could hand the largest party to

Labour. That small number of voters, soft Tory voters, the problem for

the Liberal Democrats is, if you fight, as they did, three general

elections to the left of the Labour Party, and at the end of the third,

you find yourself in Colour Vision with the Conservatives, you have a

problem. Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has

had to deal with aid riot at HM Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike

and unhappy probation officers taking industrial action.

Prison works. It ensures that we are protected from murderers, muggers

and rapists. It makes many who are tempted to commit crime think twice.

Traditional Tory policy on criminal justice and prisons has been tough

talking and tough dealing. Not only have they tended to think what they

are offering is right, but have had the feeling, you thinking what they

thinking. But nearly two decades after Michael Howard's message, his

party, in Colour Vision government, is finding prison has to work like

everything else within today's financial realities. The Justice

Secretary for two years after the election had previous in this field.

Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a change of direction. Just binding up

more and more people for longer without actively seeking to change

them is, in my opinion, what you would expect of Victorian England.

The key to keeping people out of prison now, it seems, is giving them

in a job, on release. Ironically, Ken Clarke was released from his job

15 months ago and replaced by Chris Grayling. But here, within HM Prison

Liverpool, Timpson has been working since 2009 with chosen offenders to

offer training and the chance of a job. Before you ask, they do not

teach them keep cutting in a category B prison. The Academy is

deliberately meant to look like a company store, not a prison. It

helps. You forget where you are at times, it feels weird, going back to

a wing at the end of the day. It is different. A different atmosphere.

That is why people like it. Timpson have six academies in prisons,

training prisoners inside, and outside they offer jobs to

ex-offenders, who make up 8% of their staff. It has been hard work

persuading some governors that such cooperation can work. I have seen a

dramatic change positively, working with prisoners, particularly in the

last five years. They understand now what business's expectation is.

Timpson do not just employ offenders, but as one ex-prisoner

released in February and now managing his own store says, the

point is many others will not employ offenders at all. From what I have

experienced, on one hand, you have somebody with a criminal conviction,

on the other, somebody who does not have one, so it is a case of

favouring those who have a clean record. Anybody with a criminal

conviction is passed to one side and overlooked. That, amongst myriad

other changes to prison and how we deal with prisoners, is on the desk

of the man at the top. Ever since Chris Grayling became Secretary of

State for Justice, he has wanted to signal a change of direction of

policy, and he is in a hurry to make radical reforms across the board,

from size and types of prisons to probation services, reoffending

rates, legal aid services, and there has been opposition to that from

groups who do not agree with him. But what might actually shackle him

is none of that. It is the fact that he is in government with a party

that does not always agree with him, he has to abide by the rulings of

the European Court of Human Rights, and in those famous words, there is

no money left. We would like to go further and faster. I would like him

too, but we are where we are. If the Liberal Democrats want to be wiped

out at the next election based on what they believe, that is fair

enough. We accept there has to be savings, but there are areas where

we feel that there is ideological driven policy-making going on, and

privatising may not save any money at all, and so does not make any

sense. The question is, we'll all of that means some of Chris Grayling's

reforms need closer inspection? Chris Grayling joins me now.

Welcome. We have a lot to cover. If you get your way, your own personal

way, will be next Tory manifesto promise to withdraw from the

European Convention of human rights? It will contain a promise

for radical changes. We have to curtail the role of the European

court here, replace our human rights act from the late 1990s, make our

Supreme Court our Supreme Court, they can be no question of decisions

over riding it elsewhere, and we have to have a situation where our

laws contain a balance of rights and responsibilities. People talk about

knowing their rights, but they do not accept they have responsible it

is. This is what you said last September, I want to see our Supreme

Court being supreme again... That is clear, but let's be honest, the

Supreme Court cannot be supreme as long as its decisions can be

referred to the European Court in Strasbourg. There is clearly an

issue, that was raised recency -- recently. We have been working on a

detailed reform plan, we will publish that in the not too distant

future. What we will set out is a direction of travel for a new

Conservative government that will mean wholesale change in this area.

You already tried to reform the European Court, who had this

declaration in 2012, do you accept that the reform is off the table?

There is still a process of reform, but it is not going fast enough and

not delivering the kind of change we need. That is why we will bring

forward a package that for the different from that and will set a

different direction of travel. We are clear across the coalition, we

have a different view from our colleagues. You cannot be half

pregnant on this, either our decisions from our Supreme Court are

subject to the European Cup or not, in which case, we are not part of

the European court. I hope you will see from our proposals we have come

up with a sensible strategy that deals with this issue once and for

all. Can we be part of the Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme

Court be supreme? That is by point, we have to curtail the role of the

court in the UK. I am clear that is what we will seek to do. It is what

we will do for this country. But how? I am not going to announce the

package of policies today, but we will go into the next election with

a clear strategy that will curtail the role of the European Court of

Human Rights in the UK. The decisions have to be taken in

Parliament in this country. Are you sure that you have got your own side

on this? Look at what the Attorney General says.

I would be asking Strasberg a different question to that. If the

best in class, he is saying is enough is enough, actually somebody

in Strasberg should be asking if this has gone the way it should have

done. I would love to see wholesale reform in the court tomorrow, I'm

not sure it is going to happen which is why we are going to the election

with a clear plan for this country. Would you want that to be a red line

in any coalition agreement? My mission is to win the next election

with a majority. But you have to say where your red lines would be. We

have been very clear it is an area where we don't agree as parties, but

in my view the public in this country are overwhelmingly behind

the Conservative party. 95 Conservative MPs have written to the

Prime Minister, demanding he gives the House of Commons the authority

to veto any aspect of European Union law. Are you one of the people who

wanted to sign that letter but you couldn't because you are minister? I

haven't been asked to sign the letter. We need a red card system

for European law. I'm not convinced my colleagues... I don't think it is

realistic to have a situation where one parliament can veto laws across

the European Union. I understand the concerns of my colleagues, but when

we set out to renegotiate our membership, we have got to deliver

renegotiation and deliver a system which is viable, and I'm not

convinced we can have a situation where one Parliament can prevent

laws across the whole European Union. So you wouldn't have signed

this letter? I'm not sure it is the right approach. I support the system

I just talked about. Iain Duncan Smith has suggested EU migrants

coming to work in this country should have to wait for two years

before they qualify for welfare benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think

there should be an assumption that before you can move from one country

to another, before you can start to take back from that country's social

welfare system, you should have made a contribution to it. I spent two

and a half years working in Brussels trying to get the European

Commission to accept the need for change. There is a groundswell of

opinion out there which is behind Iain Duncan Smith in what he is

saying. I think we should push for a clear system that says people should

be able to move from one country to get a job, but to move to another

country to live off the state is not acceptable. You are planning a new

2000 capacity mega prison and other smaller presence which will be run

by private firms. After what has happened with G4S, why would you do

that? No decision has been made about whether it will be public or

private. What do you think it will be? I'm not sure yet. There is no

clear correlation over public and private prisons and whether there

are problems or otherwise. Oakwood is in its early stages, it has had

teething problems at the start, but the rate of disturbance there is

only typical for an average prison of its category. If you take an

example of Parc prison in Wales, a big private run prison, run by G4S,

when it was first launched under the last government it had teething

problems of the same kind as Oakwood and is now regarded as one of the

best performing prisons. Why would you give it to a private company

then? We have only just got planning permission for the so we will not be

thinking about this for another few years. Some of the companies who run

prisons are under investigation with dreadful track records. In the case

of G4S, what we have experienced is acceptable and they have not been

able to go ahead with a number of contracts they might have otherwise

got. They are having to prove to the Government they are fit to win

contracts from the Government again. They are having to pay compensation

to the Government and the taxpayer. What has happened is unacceptable.

So why would you give them a 2000 capacity mega prison? Or anyone like

them? It cannot be said that every private company is bad. In addition

to problems at Oakwood, you are quite unique now in your position

that you have managed to get the barristers out on strike the first

time since history began. What happens if the bar refuses to do

work at your new rates of legal aid and the courts grind to a halt? I

don't believe that will happen. When the barristers came out on strike,

three quarters of Crown Courts were operating normally, 95% of

magistrates courts were operating normally. We are having to take

difficult decisions across government, I have no desire to cut

back lately but we are spending over ?2 billion on legal aid at the

moment at a time when budgets are becoming tougher. You issued

misleading figures about criminal barristers, you said that 25% of

them earn over ?100,000 per year but that is their turnover, including

VAT. 33% of that money goes on their expenses, they have to pay for their

own pensions and insurance. People are not getting wealthy out of doing

this work. I don't publish figures, our statisticians do, with caveats

in place explaining the situation. Where you have high-cost cases,

where we have taken the most difficult decisions, we have tried

hard in taking difficult decisions to focus the impact higher up the

income scale. But do you accept their take-home pay is not 100,000?

I accept they have to take out other costs, although some things like

travelling to the court, you and I and everyone else has to pay for

travelling to work. That is net of VAT. We have had a variety of

figures published, some are and some are not. Let's be clear, the gross

figures for fees from legal payments include 20% VAT. On a week when even

a cabinet minister can be fitted up by the police, don't we all need

well-financed legal aid? There is no chance that as a result

well-financed legal aid? There is no changes people will end up in court

unable to defend themselves. We have said in exceptional circumstances,

if you haven't got any money to pay, we will support you, but there is no

question of anyone ended up in court, facing a criminal charge,

where they haven't got a lawyer to defend them. Let's look at how so

many dangerous criminals have managed to avoid jail. Here are the

figures for 2012. Half the people for sexual assault found guilty, not

jailed. I thought you were meant to be tough on crime? Those figures

predate my time, but since 2010 the number of those people going to jail

has been increasing steadily. If you put the figures for 2010 on there,

you would see a significant change. We will never be in a position where

everybody who commits violence will end up in jail. The courts will

often decided to his more appropriate to give a community

sentence, but the trend is towards longer sentences and more people

going to jail. That maybe but it is even quite hard to get sent to jail

if you do these things a lot, again and again. In 2012 one criminal

avoided being sent to jail despite having more than 300 offences to his

name. 36,000 avoided going to jail despite 15 previous offences. That

is why we are taking steps to toughen up the system. Last autumn

we scrapped repeat cautions. You could find people getting dozens. As

of last autumn, we have scrapped repeat cautions. If you commit the

same offence twice within a two-year period you will go to court. You

still might end up not going to jail. More and more people are going

to jail. I cannot just magic another 34,000 prison places. You haven't

got room to put bad people in jail? The courts will take the decisions,

and it is for them to take the decisions and not me, that two men

in a bar fight do not merit a jail sentence. These figures contain a

huge amount of offences from the most minor of offences to the most

despicable. Something is wrong if you can commit 300 offences and

still not end up in jail. That's right, and we are taking steps so

this cannot happen any more. Nick Clegg said this morning you are

going to make 12 billion of welfare cuts on the back of this, he is

right, isn't he? People on the lowest incomes are often not paying

tax at all, the rich... But these cuts will fall disproportionately on

average earners, correct? Let's look at the proposal to limit housing

benefit for under 25s. Until today, after people have left school or

college, the live for a time with their parents. For some, that is not

possible and we will have to take that into account, but we have said

there is a strong case for saying you will not get housing benefit

until you are some years down the road and have properly established

yourselves in work. And by definition these people are on lower

than average salaries. Give me a case in which those on the higher

tax band will contribute to the cuts. We have already put in place

tax changes so that the highest tax rate is already higher than it was

in every year of the last government. The amount of tax...

There is no more expected of the rich. We will clearly look at future

policy and work out how best to distribute the tax burden in this

country and it is not for me to second-guess George Osborne's future

plans, but we need to look at for example housing benefit for the

under 25s. Is it right for those who are not working for the state to

provide accommodation for them? Thank you for being with us.

All three major parties at Westminster agree there's an urgent

need to build more homes for Britain's growing population. But

how they get built, and where, looks set to become a major battle ground

in the run-up to the next general election.

Although 16% more house-builds were started in 2012/13 than the previous

year, the number actually completed fell by 8% - the lowest level in

peacetime since 1920. The Office for National Statistics estimates that

between now and 2021 we should expect 220,000 new households to be

created every year. At his party's conference last autumn, Ed Miliband

promised a Labour government would massively increase house-building. I

will have a clear aim but by the end of the parliament, Britain will be

building 200,000 homes per year, more than at any time for a

generation. That is how we make Britain better than this. The Labour

leader also says he'd give urban councils a "right to grow" so rural

neighbours can't block expansion and force developers with unused land to

use it or lose it. The Government has been pursuing its own ideas,

including loan guarantees for developers and a new homes bonus to

boost new house-building. But David Cameron could have trouble keeping

his supporters on side - this week the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi

criticised planning reforms for causing "physical harm" to the

countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile prefers a radical solution - brand

new garden cities in the south east of England. In a speech tomorrow,

Labour's shadow housing minister Emma Reynolds will give more details

of how Labour would boost house-building, and she joins me

now. It is not the politicians to blame, it is the lack of

house-builders? We want a vibrant building industry, and at the moment

that industry is dominated by big house-builders. I want to see a more

diverse and competitive industry, where self build plays a greater

role. In France over 60% of new homes are built by self builders,

but small builders build more homes as well. 25 years ago they were

building two thirds of new homes, now they are not building even a

third of new homes. That's because land policies have been so

restrictive that it is only the big companies who can afford to buy the

land, so little land is being released for house building. I

agree, there are some fundamental structural problems with the land

market and that is why we have said there doesn't just need to be

tinkering around the edges, there needs to be real reforms to make

sure that small builders and self build and custom-built have access

to land. They are saying they have problems with access to land and

finance. At the end of the day it will not be self, small builders who

reach your target, it will be big builders. I think it is pretty

shameful that in Western Europe the new houses built in the UK are

smaller than our neighbours. But isn't not the land problem? France

is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and we are and that is not a problem for

them. There is a perception we are going to build on the countryside,

but not even 10% is on the countryside. There is enough for us

to have our golf courses. There is enough other land for us to build on

that is not golf courses. The planning minister has said he wants

to build our National Parks, I am not suggesting that. The single

biggest land border is the public sector. It is not. There are great

opportunities for releasing public land, that is why I have been asking

the government, they say they are going to release and of public land

for tens of thousands of new homes to be built, but they say they are

not monitoring how many houses are being built on the site. When your

leader says to landowners, housing development owners, either use the

land or lose it, in what way will they lose it? Will you confiscated?

This is about strengthening the hand of local authorities, and they say

to us that in some cases, house-builders are sitting on land.

In those cases, we would give the power to local authorities to

escalate fees. This would be the compulsory purchase orders, a matter

of last resort, and you would hope that by strengthening the hand of

local authorities, you could get the house-builders to start building the

homes that people want. Would you compulsory purchase it? We would

give the local authority as a last resort, after escalating the fees,

the possibility and flexible it is to use the compulsory purchase

orders to sell the land on to a house builder who wants to build

houses that we need. Can you name one report that has come back in

recent years that shows that hoarding of land by house-builders

is a major problem? The IMF, the Conservative mayor of London and the

Local Government Association are telling us that there is a problem

with land hoarding. Therefore, we have said, where there is land with

planning permission, and if plots are being sat on... Boris Johnson

says there are 180,000 plots in London being sat on. We need to make

sure the house-builders are building the homes that young families need.

They get planning permission and sell it on to the developer. There

is a whole degree of complicity, but there is another problem before

that. That is around transparency about land options. There is

agricultural land that house-builders have land options on,

and we do not know where that is. Where there is a need for housing,

and the biggest demand is in the south-east of England, that is where

many local authorities are most reluctant to do it, will you in

central government take powers to force these authorities to give it?

We have talked about the right to grow, we were in Stevenage

recently. What we have said is we want to strengthen the hand of local

authorities like Stevenage so they are not blocked every step of the

way. They need 16,000 new homes, but they do not have the land supply.

What about the authorities that do not want to do it? They should be

forced to sit down and agree with the neighbouring authority. In

Stevenage, it is estimated at ?500,000 has been spent on legal

fees because North Hertfordshire is blocking Stevenage every step of the

way. Michael Lyons says the national interest will have to take President

over local interest. Voice cannot mean a veto. The local community in

Stevenage is crying out for new homes. Do you agree? There has to be

land available for new homes to be built, and in areas like Oxford,

Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree with Michael Lyons? The national

interest does have to be served, with Michael Lyons? The national

will put the five new towns? We have asked him to look at how we can

incentivise local authorities to come forward with sites for new

towns. You cannot tell us where they are going to be? I cannot. We will

have to wait for him. When you look at the historic figures overall, not

at the moment, Private Housing building is only just beginning to

recover, but it has been pretty steady for a while. The big

difference between house-building now and in the past, since Mrs

Thatcher came to power a and including the Tony Blair government,

we did not build council houses. Almost none. Will the next Labour

government embark on a major council has programme? We inherited housing

stock back in 1997... This is important. Will the next Labour

government embark on a major council has programme? We have called on

this government to bring forward investment in social housing. We

want to see an investment programme in social housing, I cannot give you

the figures now. We are 18 months away from the election. Will the

next Labour government embark on a major council house Northern

programme? I want to see a council house building programme, because

there is a big shortage of council homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got

there in the end. -- that is a yes? We will be talking to Patrick homes

in the West Midlands in a moment. You are watching the Sunday

Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will look at the week

ahead with our political panel Hello, I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up in

the North West, how fast fashion's hoping to lead us from rags to

riches. But are they spinning us a yarn? The

North West was built on the cotton trade. Could millions of pounds of

new investment for the textile industry help revive our region's

economy? And joining me this week, Luciana

Berger, the Labour MP for Liverpool Wavertree, and David Mowat, the

Conservative MP for Warrington South.

But we start this week with the sad news of the death of Paul Goggins.

The Labour MP for Sale East and Wythenshawe passed away this week

after collapsing while out running with his son a few days earlier.

He'd represented the constituency for almost 17 years and had been a

well`respected minister. Luciano, some nice tributes to Mr

Goggins in Parliament? Yes, that Parliament was subdued on Wednesday

was testament to how well respected Paul Goggins was on all sides of the

house. He was a fantastic and wonderful colleague and will be

sorely missed. We can listen to some of those tributes now. It is a

measure of the man and his ability that he earned the respect, trust

and affection of all sides in Northern Ireland.

He was liked and admired right across the house and always treated

everyone, in whatever circumstances, with respect. Paul's passing is a

loss on so many levels. The house has lost a valued colleague. He was

a faithful representative. He was an outstanding ambassador for his

party. He was a loving husband, father and grandfather.

I noticed the speaker and Paul Goggins entered the Commons in the

same year. Why was he so popular, David? In the 3.5 years I was in

Parliament, he was one of the most decent people I met. He was very

conciliatory and try to get me involved in a couple of things he

was doing for his constituency. Which party you were injured not

matter to him, he was just a thoroughly decent man, and I hope

his constituents realise what a great MP they have lost. Thank you

very much. This week the electoral commission

announced plans to clamp down on electoral fraud, naming a number of

areas in the North West as cause for concern. Five of the 16 places the

watchdog said were at greater risk are Oldham, Hyndburn, Pendle,

Blackburn with Darwen and Burnley. And the watchdog reported concerns

that many areas had in common large Asian populations. Our reporter

Chris Rider's been to one of them. It is our democratic right to Kastor

our vote, but there are concerns about those who try to beat the

system. It is something that has affected all communities, but I have

spoken in the Commons back in May last year talking about how

activists in the Asian community can exploit that community through the

postal voting system and through impersonation. 16 local authorities

have been named at great risk, and the commission also look at the

subject of how electoral fraud I'll `` is more prevalent in Asian

communities. It back then, it is a subject being talked about. It will

never stop. Should something be done? Yes, it should be stopped.

Fraudsters not work. Just because it is an Asian community, it is not

mean there is more fraud going on. But one local academic says cultural

differences played a part. Systems around kinship networks really mean

that there is a great emphasis placed on these kinds of plans about

particular people representing a community, and in some cases, that

is spilling over into forms of malpractice. Among ex``` its

conclusions are recommendations for restrictions on postal voting and

producing proof of identity. But one MP says that is not the

answer. The biggest problem in East Lancashire has been issues around

postal voting and proxy voting. They need to be focused on that. The

commission hopes that new measures will be in place for the local and

European elections in May. And we're also joined from Blackburn

by Mohammed Iqbal, the leader of the Labour group on Pendle Council.

Do you think it is fair that Pendle is on this list? I disagree that

Pendle is on the list. Over a number of years, a number of political

activists from out `` opposition parties have made claims that there

is widespread vote rigging in Pendle, but the police have

investigated and there has never been any evidence, anyone arrested

or anybody charged with any offence related to electoral fraud. So you

do not think there is any? I do not say there is none, but I would say

there are elements of fraud across the country, but I would say that

the police and the local elections offices across the councils have got

powers, and if anyone is found to be committing fraud, the police should

come down very heavy and sentence those people via the courts to long

custodial sentences. I am sure most people would agree with that, but

why do you think that voting fraud is more of an issue in communities

which are linked to Pakistan and Bangladesh? My experience in Pendle

is that there is not an issue specifically within the Pakistani

community. More generally, there clearly is in certain parts of the

region. Yes, but I can only speak for my area. There was talk of a

clan system in place, but in Pendle there is no`one particular client ``

no single particular clan. We have small families within Pendle, yet

the people that vote for us vote cost of what we do, nothing to do

with where we are from. The thing is that people can say, look, the

perpetrators are coming from the communities, but by definition, so

are the victims as well, and therefore, surely it is right that

communities affected really stand up to this and deal with it. I entirely

agree with you, Arif. My appeal to people who have been abused through

the electoral system is to say, support those communities and those

people who are willing to come forward and testify a dense anyone

who commits any type of fraud, and this instance it is electoral fraud,

but as far as the Labour Party are concerned in Pendle, we are happy to

support the police in any action they wish to take whatsoever. Is it

appropriate that the electoral commission says that campaigners

should no longer be involved with postal ballots? If the electoral

commission suggests that, it is down to be political parties both on a

local, regional and national level to sit down and iron out any issues.

If there is an issue around handling of postal votes or application forms

at the doorstep, I am happy to support any actions that the

electoral commission wants us to take. Mohammed Iqbal, thank you very

much. David, do you agree with what the

electoral commission is suggesting here? Have they gone far enough? The

electoral commission is an independent body which clearly has

severe concerns over the integrity of part of the electoral system.

Severe is a strong word. I have read the report. They have concerns,

let's not disagree over that, and I think it is right that we look at

those concerns seriously and address them. One of the things we're

bringing in in this parliament is individual voter registration as

opposed to household voter registration, which is one of the

issues which has been a problem. Is this going far enough? The honest

and say is, I don't know if it is going far enough. There are concerns

which need to be addressed and they have put some proposals to

government, some of which will be excepted I think, and some will be

discussed. What you think, Lucy? `` Luciano? We have to ensure that we

aren't not bringing a sledgehammer to a net? The electoral commission

is suggesting that we need to bring ID to vote. We know that 20% of

people do not have any idea. I want to make sure that the N`Gage as many

people in our democracy to vote at a time when voter turnout is

especially low. I am concerned about the move towards individual voter

registration because the speed at which they are introducing it, we

know that 8 million people will come off the register when that happens.

So you are opposed to the idea of having to take identification when

you go to a ballot booth? Yes. If we apply that uniformly across the

board, we might alienate old people who do not have identification. One

of the concerns is the speed at which this is happening, and there

has not been a discussion about the fact that this is happening so

quickly. We appreciate the opportunity to sit down and make

sure that the speedster is not mean we exclude a whole swathe of people

at the general election. It is disappointing that the Labour Party

do not support individual voter registration. That is not what I

said. I said the problem was with the speed. Let's move on.

Moving on, and have you ever wondered what happened to the three

wise men after Christmas? Wel,l let me tell you, they got together to

discuss North West politics and make a few predictions. I joined them for

a coffee in Manchester to ponder the political year ahead.

I am confronted by a dizzying array of political talent. John, set the

scene for 2014. What we need to look out for? It is a massive political

year in the North West. We have the overriding question about who can

claim credit for the economic recovery, but the local questions

that need to be Ansett are who is going to win the European and local

elections in May, and issues about the Labour Party conference here in

September, the final conference for the opposition to set the mood music

and win voters over before the general election in May 2015. It

could hardly be bigger. So every thing hinges on economic recovery?

Yes, and George Osborne has been saying that the Labour Party got it

wrong, you cannot cut and still recover the economy, and the Labour

Party have to decide what their economic strategy is. At the moment,

we don't know what it is. The statistics suggest there might be

less of a recovery in the North West than in the rest of the country. We

might see a national recovery that is not replicated in the North

West. What are the political implications of that? We might go

back to a 1980s two nations approach. The Labour Party might

create a five term in the North West urges not the case elsewhere. `` a

fiefdom. And these are probably the most insulting set of elections this

year since the general election. Yes, difficult for Labour to do much

better, because they have made huge gains in the last year in local

govern. In Europe, you can predict things much more easily. UKIP will

get more seats, probably. Keeping it in perspective, they have not got a

single council seat in the North West. They will do well in the

European elections. After that, they will start to implode. In the

Lancashire elections, they would not have ceded control from the

Conservatives if it had not been for UKIP. It is not going to happen.

Despite the fact that things look before the Lib Dems, there is not

much evidence they're going to get worse. They will be hoping to

stabilise. It will be a fight between UKIP getting a third seed

and whether the incumbent hands`on. What are your predictions for the

coming year? Heim `` the high watermark for UKIP will be the

European elections, but it is a volatile party and it will implode

after that. We will see the BNP lose their seat in the European

Parliament. Estimate made to enter the Cabinet for West Midlands. These

are performance related cappuccinos, so we will see how you all do at the

end of the year. Thank you very much.

We meet up for those discussions every week. Let me pick up with you,

Luciana. What about what John was saying there that Labour does not

have a clear economic strategy? The first thing is that we know the

economy is even worse than the Chancellor himself addicted. ``

predicted. It is difficult to make promises that this juncture. We are

keen to make promises that we can keep. We have to see how bad it is

come 2016, and that will come forward in our manifesto. Is a long

time to wait. We are keen to know what you have to say! I think it is

fair that Ed Miliband and Ed Balls has been clear on some things in

policy, and has Ed Balls has said in response to the Chancellor's

statement this week, we are keen on bringing down the deficit in a way

that means we can help people to improve their standard of living,

and that we want to bring down the deficit in a fairway, which means

not giving taxpayers a cut when everyone else has to suffer. David,

what about what Andrew Russell was warning there, that there is a

possibility the regional economy might behind the rest of the

country? There is a risk of that. You just asked what was labour's

economic strategy, and the answer came that there was none. `` and so

came their non`. It is about coming forward with a policy to be

credible. The point you made up by the North West being an island of

not being doing well, and that is a risk. A lot of effort is being made

to fix that. Let me say this, which is that your government was

committed to closing the gap. Yes, and we have tried to do it, and the

gap has not got any worse. The gap really rose in the last three years

of the last government when we had that city boom in the South East and

it accelerated away. HS2 is part of how we are trying to do it and there

are other things as well. It is important to point out that for the

regions outside of London, we have seen investment reduced by 24% and

be a feeling that acutely in the North West. It is a shame that we

are not having any acknowledgement of that.

Well, we've mentioned our economy, and it was built on cotton. But

there are more empty mills than working ones these days. Now there

are moves in Lancashire and Greater Manchester to invest in textiles

once more. So is the plan a super model, or just a fashion fad? Naomi

Cornwell's been investigating. The textiles industry shaped the

region we live in. 100 years ago, the North West cotton industry

produced seven billion square yards of cloth a year. But gradually the

foreign markets set up their own factories. Gone are the days when

Manchester was referred to as Cottonopolis. Many of the big mills

and warehouses have now been converted into homes and offices,

but Greater Manchester still has the highest density of textile factories

in the country. It's through investment in these that some

believe the textiles industry could thrive here once again. Lorna

Fitzsimons, the former MP for Rochdale, is running a project to

see if it's a realistic growth area. Over ?12 million from the regional

growth fund has already been earmarked for investment. Greater

Manchester, Lancashire and West Yorkshire are the epicentre of the

textile manufacturing industry in the UK. There is significant growth

potential both in terms of export and also in terms of retailers

needing local capacity to feed the turnaround that is now needed on the

High Street. This factory in Salford is one of the businesses involved.

It already supplies clothing to several big fashion brands, but is

hoping to grow even more if the scheme goes ahead. Equipment wise,

we would be more efficient if we could update what is machinery that

is 50 years old, and older. And in Middleton, this lingerie company is

working side by side with Oldham College, who have set up a fashion

academy on site. We are delivering training alongside employers who are

modelling out what their needs are in terms of skills over the coming

months. They know they need five apprentices here in the foreseeable

future, so out of the cohort of 15 new coming year, five are likely to

go into a job quite quickly. I am quite interested in doing that and

it is really good. It is brilliant to get people into experience. I

live over the road, and everything that is here and available to us, it

is fantastic. You would never get anything like this at college. These

want pressing now... These could be the textile entrepreneurs of the

future, hoping to keep the North West a cut above the competition.

Luciana, I had to cut you off earlier, but the point you were

making is that the government is not doing enough for the North West

economy. The Prime Minister said we would see a export led economy, but

we have seen our trade deficit increased in recent months. All

regions outside of London has seen investment decrease, and that is

very worrying. I sincerely hope that the project we have just seen in the

film does get the support that we require and it has asked for. The

problem has been with the regional growth fund that, since its

creation, 50 projects have fallen by the wayside because they have not

seen the money come forward. I want to see more from the government on

this because it is so vital that we reinvigorate our industries and

create jobs that we urgently need. David? Your piece was very

encouraging and I think a lot of organisations are seeing the

outsourcing of manufacturing to Asia as not being the panacea that they

are expecting `` were expecting. We're seeing coming `` we are seeing

things coming back into our region, which is good to see. One of the

reasons that unemployment now is lower than it was at the general

election. I think we will see more of it. I particularly have a bias

towards higher value`added manufacturing, particularly I would

like to see more pharmaceuticals and organisations like British Aerospace

and Bentley, but any Manufacturing is good. What about unemployment?

The challenge is that there are certain types of jobs being created.

We have seen a large increase in temporary jobs since 2010 and we

have a large and of people in part`time work you want to be in

full`time work. I want to see the government address things like

precarious employment like temporary contracts and part`time work.

David? I don't disagree with some of the points that Luciana is making.

We need high value`added jobs. I would say that when their party said

they would create jobs, that is not what has happened. Their credibility

is zilch. Some of those jobs were in education which have been

re`clasping the private sector, so there has been some... The

credibility is nil. Time for the rest of the week's news

now in 60 seconds. You won't be left on the sidings.

The infrastructure minister Lord Deighton was in Liverpool telling

businesses how they will benefit from High Speed Rail despite no

direct link. Salford Council is looking for a new manager, salary

?150,000, at the same time as implementing ?25 million of cuts.

People with moderate needs like Betty Morris will lose out. How can

I come at my age, do my own cleaning?

Lancashire's Police Commissioner Clive Grunshaw won't be prosecuted

over his expenses. He wrongly claimed some money while a county

councillor. But the Crown Prosecution Service said there

wasn't enough evidence to prove he was deliberately dishonest.

The Lake District could become a World Heritage Site after being

nominated by the Government. UNESCO will now decide whether to add it to

the list which includes the Egyptian Pyramids, the Taj Mahal and

Liverpool's waterfront. And could Fergie be off to a

different team of reds? One Labour MP John Mann reckons the former

Manchester United manager should lead its general election campaign.

David, you are the ministerial aide for the cities minister. A lot of

that is about evolving power to the cities. Are we going to see more of

that in the region? We will see more power in the cities, but also in the

wider region, because one of the issues is that until now a lot has

been devolved, more by this government than any previous

government, but it has gone to Liverpool and Manchester, and I

would like to see more in Cheshire, Lancashire and Cumbria. I would like

to see our budget not being cut in the way that it has! The council has

made such severe savings and budget cuts that, come 2017, we will have a

?17 million deficit on mandatory spend. I think people have no idea

what is coming down the line and what the impact of Eric Nichols's

decisions will be. `` Eric Pickles. David Knight and Luciana Berger,

thank you very will not be revoked. And I wouldn't

want it to go. Thank you, back to Andrew.

Can David Cameron get his way on EU migration? Will he ever be able to

satisfy his backbenchers on Europe? Is Ed Miliband trying to change the

tone of PMQ 's? More questions for the week ahead.

We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg from his constituency in Somerset.

Welcome to the programme. You one of the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed

this letter? Suddenly. Laws should be made by our democratically

elected representatives, not from Brussels. How could Europe work with

a pick and mix in which each national parliament can decide what

Brussels can be in charge of? The European Union is a supernatural

body that is there for the cooperation amongst member states to

do things that they jointly want to do. It ought not be there to force

-- to enforce uniform rules on countries that do not want to

participate. It is the vision of Europe that people joined when we

signed up to it and came in in 1973. It has accreted powers to itself

without having the support of the public of the member states. This is

just a way of preparing the ground for you to get out of Europe

altogether, isn't it? I do not big so. There is a role for an

organisation that does some coordination and that has trade

agreements within it, I do not think there is a role for a federal state.

Europe seems to be dominating the. I remember your leader telling you not

to bang on about Europe, your backbench colleagues seem to have

ignored that. Would you like to restrict the flow of EU migrants to

come to work in this country? Yes. I think we should have control of our

own borders, so we can decide who we want to admit for the whole world.

What we have at the moment is a restrictive control of people coming

from anywhere other than the EU. There is a big decrease in the

number of New Zealanders who came in the last quarter for which figures

are available, but a huge increase in people coming from the continent.

Does it really make sense to stop our second cousins coming so that we

can allow people freely to come from the continent? I do not think so, we

need to have domestic control of our borders in the interests of the

United Kingdom. There are still lots more people coming from the rest of

the world than from the European Union. That has been changing. But

there are still more. A lot more. The permanent residence coming from

the European Union are extremely high. In the period when the Labour

Party was in charge, we had to put 5 million people coming here, of whom

about 1 billion were from Poland. -- we had 2.5 million people coming

here. We have no control over them. Like the clock behind you, you are

behind the times on these figures. I have stopped the clock for your

benefit, because it was going to chime otherwise! I thought that

might be distracting! Only a Tory backbencher could stop a clock!

Helen, when you at this up, it is preparing to get out, is it not? We

have had this one bill about a referendum that seems to have tied

us up in knots for months on end. If Parliament could scrutinise every

piece of EU legislation, we would never get anything else done. It

would be incredible. Even Chris Grayling said earlier that you can

not have a national veto on anything that the EU proposes. I am surprised

that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking about dismantling one of Margaret

Thatcher's most important legacies, the creation of the single market,

and the person sent there to dream it up under Margaret Thatcher said

the only way you can run this sensibly is by not having national

vetoes, because if you have that, guess what will happen? The French

will impose lots of protectionist measures. It was Margaret

Thatcher's idea that national parliaments should never veto. How

could you fly in the face of the lady? Even the great lady makes

mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg says even Margaret Thatcher makes

mistakes! No wonder the clock has stopped! Even be near divine

Margaret made a mistake! But on the single market, it has been used as

an excuse for massive origination of domestic affairs. We should be

interested in free trade in Europe and allowing people to export and

import freely, not to have uniform regulations, as per the single

market, because what that allows is thought unelected bureaucrats to

determine the regular vision. We want the British people to decide

the rules for themselves. If this makes the single market not work,

that is not the problem, because we can still have free trade, which is

more important. If David Cameron is watching this, I am sure he is, it

will be nice for you to come on and give us an interview, he must be

worried. He is beginning to think, I am losing control. It is a clever

letter, the tone is ingratiating and pleasant, every time, you have stood

up to Brussels, you have achieved something, but the content is

dramatic. If you want Parliament to have a veto, you want to leave the

EU, because the definition is accepting the primacy of European

law. The MPs should be clear about that. It is almost a year since the

Europe speech in which David Cameron committed to the referendum. The

political objective was to put that issue to bed until the next

election. It has failed. David Cameron is going to have to pull off

a major miracle in any renegotiations to satisfy all of

this. Yes, it makes me think how much luckier he has been in

coalition with the Liberal Democrats, because there is a bit of

the Tory party that is irreconcilable to what he wants to

do. The Conservative MPs are making these demands just as David Cameron

is seeing the debate goes his way in Europe. Angela Merkel has looked

over the cliff and said, do I want the UK out? No, they are a

counterbalance to France. France one the UK to leave, but they do not,

because they do not want to lose the only realistic military power Tom

other than themselves. Just when the debate is going David Cameron's way,

Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out. Let me move on to another subject.

That is nonsense. The debate is not beginning to go David Cameron's way.

We are having before us on Monday a bill about European citizenship and

spending British taxpayers money so that Europe can go and say we are

all EU citizens, but we signed up to being a part of a multinational

organisation. The spin that it is going the way of the leader of a

political party is one that has been used before, it was said of John

Major, it was untrue then and it is now. It is, for the continuing

deeper integration of the European Union. I want to ask a quick

question. Chris Grayling said to us that the Tories would devise a way

in which the British Supreme Court would be supreme in the proper

meaning of that, but we could still be within the European Court of

Human Rights. Can that circle be squared? I have no idea, the Lord

Chancellor is an able man, and I am sure he is good at squaring circles.

I am not worried about whether we remain in the convention or not. PMQ

's, we saw a bit about this week, Paul Gorgons had died, so the house

was more subdued, but he wants a more subdued and serious prime

ministers questions. Let's remind ourselves what it was like until

now. What is clear is that he is

floundering around and he has no answer to the Labour Party's energy

price freeze. The difference is, John Major is a good man, the Right

Honourable gentleman is acting like a conman. Across the medical

profession, they say there is a crisis in accident and emergency,

and we have a Prime Minister saying, crisis, what crisis? How out of

touch can hate the? You do not need it to be Christmas to know when you

are sitting next to a turkey. It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband

trying to change the tone of prime ministers questions? Is he right to

do so? The important point is this was a special prime ministers

questions, because everybody was really sad and by the death of Paul

Goggins and in the country, the legacy of the floods. That was the

first question that Ed Miliband asked about, so that cast a pall

over proceedings. When it suits him, Ed Miliband would like to take a

more statesman-like stance, but will it last? That is how David Cameron

started. His first prime ministers questions, he said to Tony Blair, I

would like to support you on education, and he did in a vote

which meant Tony Blair could see off a naughty operation from Gordon

Brown. But it did not last, they are parties with different visions.

Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to see it more subdued? I like a bit of

Punch and Judy. You need to have fierce debate and people putting

their views passionately, it is excellent. I am not good at it, I

sit there quite quietly, but it is great fun, very exciting, and it is

the most watched bit of the House of Commons each week. If it got as dull

as ditchwater, nobody would pay attention. Three cheers for Punch

and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to make a major speech on the economy

this week. You can now define the general approach. We had it from

Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over energy prices, this market is bust,

the market is not working properly, and that will therefore justify

substantial government intervention. Intervention which does not

necessarily cost money. It is the deletion and reorganising

industries. It constitutes an answer to the question which has been

hounding him, what is the point of the Labour Party when there is no

money left? He says, you do not spend a huge amount fiscally, but

you arrange markets to achieve socially just outcomes without

expenditure. It is quite serious stance. I am not sure it will

survive the rigours of an election campaign, but it is an answer. Is

that an approach, to use broken markets, to justify substantial

state intervention? Yes, and the other big plank is infrastructure

spending. The Lib Dems would not be against capital investment for info

structure will stop Emma Reynolds talking about house-building, the

idea of pumping money into the economy through infrastructure is

something that the Labour Party will look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once

thought Somerset should have its own time zone, and today, you have

delivered on that promise! Live on the Sunday Politics! I try to

deliver on my promises! That is all for today, the Daily

Politics is on BBC Two every day this week, just before lunch. I

aren't back next Sunday here on BBC One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.