19/01/2014 Sunday Politics North West

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says

Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask

senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.

What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the

views of a Sunday Politics focus group. A donkey.

And in the North West: Council cuts, fracking and football ` the MP who

says the Premier League's funding for the grass roots game deserves a

yellow card. MP. And we'll get the verdict on

Portsmouth MP Penny Mordaunt's plunge from the highboard from who

else but the Minister for Portsmouth.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the

business: and in London, Boris Johnson has pledged to recruit more

volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting

throughout the programme. First this morning, Nick Clegg is

considering a fresh investigation into the behaviour of the party s

former chief executive, Lord Rennard. Last week, a lawyer

appointed by the party decided that no action could be taken against

him, but that women who had accused the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate

behaviour "were broadly credible". More than 100 party activists are

demanding an apology. Chris Rennard say he's nothing to apologise for

and the party whip must be returned to him. Helen, this is not going

away. It is turning into a crisis for the Lib Dems? They have only got

seven female MPs. There is no female Cabinet Minister. There is a

reasonable chance that after the next election there might in no

female Liberal Democrat MPs at all. A scandal like this will not

encourage women into the party. Have they made a complete mess of it You

feel for Nick Clegg, because he launched an utterly rigorous

process. He called in a QC. The QC looked at it and decided that the

evidence did not meet the burden of proof in a criminal trial. But

clearly he felt that the evidence from these women was very credible

and serious. He said it was broadly credible. Clearly it was serious.

Rennard is being advised by Lord Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat

peer, who is giving purely legal advice. He is saying it has not

reached that edge-mac, so do not apologise. This is a political

issue, so the agony continues. Nick Clegg was hoping to keep the party

whip withdrawn. But they did not launch an enquiry, the Webster

enquired it was not an enquiry, it was a legal opinion. You're right,

it was an internal opinion. The Lib Dems distinguished themselves from

the other two parties not with policy, but with ethics. They

presented themselves as being cleaner, and in possession of more

Robert Jay than Labour and the Conservatives. That will be harder

to do now. -- more probity. There are a Lib Dem peers that are more

relaxed about taking him back and letting him pick up the party whip.

That is the problem. There is a generational issue. The older Lib

Dems in the House of Lords, the kind of thing, he did not do anything

that wrong. The younger activists and those outside the House of

Lords, they think it is a pollen. Yes, there is definitely a sort of

what you are complaining about sort of thing. That is symptomatic of a

cultural difference. The report last year found that they tried to manage

the allegations. They did not do what any company would do if there

was an allegation of sexual harassment. If there had not in the

by-election in Eastleigh, this story may not have got the attention it

did. Channel four news are the one that really drove this. Without

their reporting, this might not have come out. It is not going to go

away, because the issue of whether he gets the party whip back will

come week. -- will come up this week.

So it's not been a great week for the Liberal Democrats and none of

this will help public perceptions of a party already struggling in the

polls. In a moment, I'll be talking to the second most senior Liberal

Democrat in the land, Danny Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went

to Glasgow to find out what voters there made of the party.

Let's put the Lib Dems under the microscope in Glasgow. We have

recruited some Glaswegians who have voted for them, and some who have

not. Hello, John. Let's get started. I will be watching them through the

one-way mirror, along with the former Liberal Democrat MP John

Barrett. Let's get to the heart of the matter straightaway. If the Lib

Dems were a biscuit, what would they be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the

outside but soft in the middle. They give in. There is no strength of

character there. They just give in to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit

bland and boring. Melts and crumbles under any sort of heat and pressure.

Morrison's own brand of biscuit not top of the range like Marks

Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose. A custard cream, sandwiched between

David Cameron and the Tories. I think they were concerned that they

had one exterior, but something else was really inside. They did not find

it too definitive, too clear, too concise, too tasty, too appealing.

Which means? It is a worry. If that is their gut reaction, literally,

let's find out what is behind it. The context of them being stuck

between a rock and a hard place for them as a party, I feel slightly

sorry for them. I think people who voted for them will think they are

victims as well, being sold down the river by going to the coalition I

think the ones, particularly student fees, that was an important one to a

lot of people. People felt cheated. I agree. Just going back on that, so

publicly and openly, it makes you think, well, what do they stand for?

It is trust. Harsh. But our group is feeling quite upbeat about the state

of the economy. What have the Lib Dems contributed to that? I am not

quite sure. It is George Osborne, a Conservative, who is the Chancellor,

so it is mostly down to him. The Liberal Democrats are mostly on

their coat tails, if you know what I mean. Have the Lib Dems done

anything, anyone? I think the Liberal Democrats were responsible

for increasing the tax allowance, ?10,000 for next year. I think they

have played a major role in that. Yes. I am glad somebody noticed

that. We will have helped everyone who is receiving a salary, and it is

interesting that nobody has mentioned that. Now, let's talk

about personalities. Everyone knows him, but what about say, this guy?

Alexander. Danny, they got it straightaway. I actually quite like

him. I think he talks very clearly and it is easy to understand what he

says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy is popular as well. He is very

charismatic and it is through him that I voted Liberal the last few

times. But who is this? I recognise him but I cannot tell you his name.

That is the party's leader in Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the

party's role in the upcoming referendum on independence draws a

blank as well. It does not feel like they have featured, it is SNP and

Labour and Conservative. They are last in a four horse race. We have

been talking about the biggest issue in Scottish politics, independence

and the referendum and the Lib Dems are nowhere. They are not mentioned

and they seem to think it is all about Labour and the SNP. The Lib

Dems are part of the Better Together campaign and we are being drowned

out among that. Looking to the future, what messages do voters have

for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do not go back on your policies or your

word. Be strong and decisive. If you will pardon the expression, man up.

DIY, do it yourself. Do not award bankers and other people for

failure. Stand up. Be your own person, party. If that focus group

represented the whole country, what would the result for the Lib Dems be

at 2015 in the election? If they get the message across between now and

then, the result could be OK. If they do not get the message across,

the result could be disaster. Maybe they would do a lot better on their

own. I do not think you are seeing the true Lib Dems because they are

in the coalition. They maybe deserve another chance. Crucially for the

Lib Dems, that means there is some hope, but there is also plenty of

anger, some disappoint, and a bit of bafflement as well.

And watching that with me, senior Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary

to the Treasury Danny Alexander Welcome to the programme. One of the

things that comes through from the focus group is that if there is any

credit around for the economic recovery, it is the Tories that are

getting it, and you are not? What can you do about that? The first

thing to say is that the economy would not be recovering if it was

not for the Liberal Democrats. If it was not for our decision right

beginning in 2010 to form a strong, stable coalition government that to

deal with the problems, we would still be in the mess that Labour

left us with. Why are you not getting the credit? That was one

focus group. It was interesting to hear opinions. We have to work very

hard to get across the message that the economy would not be recovering

without the Liberal Democrats. People would not be seeing the

largest income tax cuts for a generation without the Liberal

Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold that one of the people referred to

is coming into peoples pay packets this year. Lots of people recognise

that. There was the one person in the focus groups. This is your

measure of success, raising the people at which people pay income

tax. But most of the voters do not even give you credit for that. The

role that we haven't British politics as a party, is that we are

the only party that can be trusted to deliver a fair society and a

strong economy. People know they cannot trust the Labour Party. We

saw it again from Ed Miliband this morning. You cannot trust the Labour

Party with the nation's finances. It may well be your policy, the income

tax threshold, but it is the Tories that are getting the credit? I do

not think that is true. I have spent lots of time meeting photos and lots

of people recognise that if it was not for the Liberal Democrats,

people would not be seeing those tax cuts. We are helping disadvantaged

children in schools. It is right that we have to work very hard

between now and polling day to do several things, to make sure that we

secure the recovery, there can be no complacency. The economic recovery

is in its early stages and we need to make sure it is sustainable. We

need to make sure the benefits of the recovery are shared out people

who have made sacrifices, people on low pay, people who have seen their

savings are eroded. The Tories have now hijacked another Lib Dem

policy, another big hike in the minimum wage. You spoke about the

need to make sure that people on low pay benefit from the recovery, a big

hike in the minimum wage. Did the Chancellor consulting on this? We

have been talking about it for some time. Vince Cable asked the low pay

commission for advice on this. Why did Vince Cable not make this

announcement, why was it the Chancellor? Let me say a few other

things about this. If we are going to secure the recovery, this year we

have to make sure that businesses start investing. We have got to get

Roddick typically rising. An increase in the minimum wage is

something that needs to follow that. We will not do it unless the low pay

commission adviser as it is important for the economy at this

stage. Did you know the Chancellor was coming out with that statement?

I did not know he was going to say something on that particular day. We

have worked together on it in the tragedy to see what the economic

impact would be, and to emphasise that it is the commission, which has

credibility with business, trade unions and government. It must not

be a politically motivated increase. So you did not know, and Vince

Cable, and it is properly a matter for him as the Business Secretary,

he did not make the announcement? I don't think that's right. I don t

clear every word I say with him I don't expect him to do the same to

me. The Lib Dems have told us before it was the Treasury that was

blocking this from happening. We were going to ask the low pay

commission to advise us on bringing the minimum wage back up. During the

financial crisis, wages have been lower-than-expected but it's also

right, we shouldn't act in a hasty way, we should listen to what the

commission has to say, and if they don't recommend an increase we have

to make sure economic conditions are there to get it right. Not only are

the Tories getting credit for that, our Scottish voters group showed

that people have still not forgiven you for ratting on tuition fees and

that was a broken promise that didn't even apply to the people in

Scotland, where there are no tuition fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear

about the issues that that brought up. If you look at our manifesto,

the University of London said we delivered about 70% of our policies

in the manifesto. They haven't forgiven you for the big one. The

big promise we made was to cut income tax the millions of people.

That is a policy which is putting money back into the pockets of

working people. It is only possible because we are delivering our

economic plan in government with the Conservatives. Now we have to make

sure, through tax cuts, through looking at issues like the minimum

wage and other groups who have made sacrifices, make sure that benefit

is shared. I am not going to agree to anything which undermines the

confidence of businesses to invest in this country over the next 1

months. Speaking of Scotland, the Lib Dems, why do they now look

largely irrelevant in the battle for the union? Not one of our focus

group even knew who your Scottish leader is. I don't accept that. I

have spent a lot of time with Alistair Carmichael and others, we

are all making the case every day. If Scotland votes to be independent,

it will be in a much worse financial position within the European Union.

Scotland will be contributing to the rebate for the UK, rather than

benefiting from it. It has been a disaster for your Scottish based to

have joined a coalition with the Tories. It may have been the right

thing to do, you say it is in the national interest, but Scottish Lib

Dems did not expect to be in a coalition with the Tories. By the

way I think it is also in the national interests and the interests

of the people for Scotland, cutting the income tax of Scottish people,

stabilising the economy. We are now seeing good growth. But you are in

meltdown. I don't accept that. We will see what happens in the 20 5

election. I think we have a record to be proud of, we have played a

very important role in clearing up the mess Labour made in the

economy, of making sure the Coalition government tackles the

problems in this country, but does so in a fair way. I think the

biggest risks to the economic recovery over the next few years is

either a majority Labour government or a majority Conservative

government. Labour you cannot trust with the finances, the Tories want

us to play chicken with the European Union which would truly be a

disaster to investment in this country. You announced this week

that if Scotland votes to leave the UK, it would be the British Treasury

that would guarantee all British government debt. There wouldn't be a

negotiation, but the backstop would be that even if they didn't take

anything, we would still guarantee the debt. What was happening in the

markets that you needed to calm them down? We were getting quite a few

questions from the people we rely on to lend us money. We are still

borrowing billions of pounds every month as a country. Those people

were asking us to clarify this point. It was becoming a serious

concern? It wasn't reflected in the guilty yields. I follow the bond

market quite carefully and there was no sign this was having an impact.

That's why the right thing to do was to clarify this point now, rather

than the concerns being reflected in what you imply, and I think it is a

bad idea for Scotland to vote for separation but it would be wrong to

allow for the fact that question is on the table to cost taxpayers in

the UK more money and higher interest payments simply because

Alex Salmond has put that question on the table. That's why I think it

was the right thing to do. There were a lot of calls from the focus

group that you need to be different. Nick Clegg has embarked on this

aggressive differentiation. Where you can be different is the

bankers' bonuses. What conceivable reason could there be for anybody at

RBS getting a bonus twice in their salary? We have not been approached

by RBS in terms of those votes. I would be sceptical about an approach

from RBS if it can. It shows what we have presided over as a party in

government, massive reductions. . I'm not asking you about that, I'm

asking what conceivable case there can be for a bank that has failed to

sell its branches even though ordered by the Government, still has

38 billion of toxic debt on its balance sheet, I ask again what

possible reason should they get twice salary as a bonus? Your right

to say RBS is in a very different position to other banks, it is

mostly owned by the state. RBS hasn't put a case to us but they

might do so I would like to look at what they would say, but I would be

sceptical as to whether a case could be made given some of the things you

said, but also the fact that it is a bank that has benefited from the

taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS has to focus more on domestic

retail. Let me turn to Chris Rennard, ten women have accused him

of sexual harassment. He denies every case. Who do you believe? We

have been through a process on this as a party. A report has been issued

on this. I agree with Alistair Webster on this, he has made clear

that while he cannot prove what happened to a criminal standard

that there is clear there has been considerable distress and harm

caused. I agree with him about that and that's why it is necessary for

Chris Rennard to apologise as he has been asked to do. If he refuses to

apologise, should he be denied the Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't

think he should be readmitted to the Liberal Democrat group in the House

of Lords until such time as the disciplinary process, including the

apology, has been done properly We are very democratic party, it is a

matter for our group in the House of Lords in due course to make that

judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of complaints from party members about

the fact no apology has been made. The appropriate committee would need

to look at that and decide what action needs to be taken because

these are very serious matters. We as a party have learned a lot, taken

a long, hard look at ourselves, to change the way we work. The apology

does need to be made. We are told that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of

the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, we are told he has shaken

hands with Chris Rennard and welcomed him back. That decision has

not been taken yet. I think Lord Newby would share my view on this.

Have you shaken his hand and welcomed him back? No, I haven't.

Does Nick Clegg have the power to deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am

making it clear that a lack of apology is totally unacceptable and

therefore we have to take steps if that is not forthcoming. His view

and my view is that Lord Rennard should not be readmitted to the

House of Lords if that is not forthcoming. In our party, our group

in the House of Lords has two in the end take a view for itself. And they

can override Nick Clegg's view? I hope that when they look at this...

Do they have the power to override Nick Clegg? They have the power to

decide who should be the whip. The failure to follow up the simple

human demand for an apology for the stress that has been caused is

totally unacceptable. Your party is totally down lighted on this --

divided on this. Here is what Lord Carlile had to say. A total

nonsense, hyperbole. It is a ridiculous statement to make and we

have seen Alistair Webster, the QC who did this investigation, comment

on that himself this morning. He has followed the process the party laid

down in its rules, which sets the standard for the investigation which

asked him to report on the evidence he has found, but he also has a duty

of confidentiality and responsibility under the data

protection legislation as well. Here is what your activists have said in

a letter to the Guardian. This shows there are strong opinions, but why

should Chris Rennard apologise for something he denies, unproven

allegations, on an unpublished report that Chris Rennard has not

been allowed to read? He should apologise because he wants to

continue to be a member of the Liberal Democrats and this is the

recommendation that has been made by the internal disciplinary process.

Webster himself said this was not an inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris

Rennard apologises on this basis, he opens himself to civil lawsuits He

says he is not going to do it. As a Liberal Democrat you join the party

because you believe in its values, you abide by its rules. One of those

rules is that we have a process if there are disciplinary allegations.

The committee of the party supported Webster's recommendations, one of

which was that an apology should be made because he clearly found

distress had been caused. Will there now be a proper inquiry? I don't

think any of these legalistic things, I don't think he can have it

both ways. Will there be a proper inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a

proper inquiry. There was a proper report into what happened at the

time and we have learned a lot from this is a party, and the most

important thing now is that Chris Rennard apologises. You have made

that clear. What kind of biscuits are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on

the inside? It is good of you to be advertising a Scottish product. We

just wondered if you weren't tough enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank

you. More than tough enough is the answer to that.

Generally governments are a bit rubbish at IT projects. They tend to

run way over budget and never quite achieve what they promised. So the

revelations of a former spy that the US and British security agencies

were in fact astonishingly efficient at eavesdropping on the digital

communications of their citizens came as a bit shock. But just how

worried should we be about their clandestine activity?

In his latest revelation, former US by Edward Snowden has claimed that

America's National Security Agency operates a secret database called

Dishfire. It collect 200 million mobile phone messages every day from

around the world, accessed, he says, why British and American spies. This

week, the president has outlined a series of surveillance reforms,

including Ning to the storage of the phone call information of millions

of Americans, and no Morse -- and no more spying on allies like Angela

Merkel. Critics say that the British intelligence agencies have refused

to acknowledge even the need for a debate on the issue. The Foreign

Secretary William six says that we have a very strong system of checks

and balances. -- William Hague. ?? new line Nick Pickles is director of

the pressure group Big Brother Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in

on Parliament's Intelligence And Security Committee. They're here to

go head to head. Welcome to both of you. Hazel

Blears, let me come to you first. President Obama has made some major

changes as a result of what we have learned that the NSA in America was

up to. But British politicians seem to, they are not up for this kind of

thing, they are hoping it will go away? It is not going away and that

is why my committee, the Intelligence And Security Committee,

has decided to launch an enquiry into whether the legal framework is

up-to-date. We have had massive technological change. We have had a

call for evidence. Some of the sessions will be open so that people

can see what the evidence is. Obviously some of the information

will have to be classified, but on the committee, there is a real

commitment to say, there is a big debate going on, let's see if the

system is as Rob asked as we can make it. The big question is

oversight and the call for evidence that the committee has issued is not

mention oversight. It is ten years since the Foreign Affairs Committee

said that the committee should be a fully elected committee chosen by

Parliament and not the Prime Minister. It has changed, actually.

The Prime Minister nominates people and the house gets to him -- gets to

approve. In America, they have a separation of power, the president

does not nominate Kennedy. Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an

establishment lackey? I do not think so. Most of the people on the

committee have some experience of intelligence and these issues. In

this country, we have robust scrutiny, compared to some of her

European neighbours. We have Parliamentary scrutiny, the

interception commissioners, and ministers have to sign the warrants.

But there may be room for improvement, which is why we are

having the enquiry. Do not forget, President Obama said that the agency

should not have the ability to collect data, he wanted to put more

safeguards in. That is essential for the work of the agencies. If you

cannot see the data, you cannot take the connections and see the

patterns. Some people never talk about the threat from terrorism it

is all about travesty. There are several thousand people in this

country, as we are talking, who are actively planning to do a country

harm. When this debate started in the US, the NSA head stood up and

said there are 54 plots that have been detected by this capability

that has detected and that in bulk. Now the head of the NSA has admitted

that the number is actually zero. It is not the intelligence committee in

the US that did the work to reduce that number, it was a Judiciary

Committee. The fact that we have two different bodies doing this in this

country, it means that you do not get the correct view. How can people

have confidence in a body when if you go around Europe, for example,

or the world, we are not at the end not requiring judges to not sign

warrants? I do not accept that the committee failed on that range of

issues. You look at the reports on 7/7. Two reports by the committee

get to the heart of it. If you look at that terrorist attack on our

country, people will say, why did you not have them on the radar? The

agencies are between a rock and a hard race. They have got to be

subject to oversight, but beanie capability. Did you know about

Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular basis and I know about the

capabilities that we have got. Some of the names of these programmes, we

would not necessarily know. But did you know that GCHQ had the

capability to use Dishfire, or to get Dishfire material from the NSA?

I knew and my committee knew that we had the capability to collect data,

and these days, people do not write letters, they do not use landline

telephones, they use the Internet and text in, so it is important that

the agencies are able to keep up with that take the logical change.

What should happen? The proper legal framework should include, if a

company is cooperating, as Google and Facebook do, it should be

illegal for GCHQ to hack into them. In the US, Lundberg estimate that

this has driven a 35mm and hole in the US economy because people do not

trust but there are systems are secure. We need to know that GCHQ

are not trying to use a different door into the system, whether by

hacking or foreign intelligence We need judicial oversight with judges

and not politicians signing off The final 30 seconds to you. As a result

of the changes in the Justice and Security act, the committee is

accountable to Parliament and not the Prime Minister. Those changes

are taking place, and I am up for the debate if we need more change or

not. But I want British agencies to have more power to protect the

people in this country. Thank you to both of you. It's coming up to

11:40. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20

minutes, we'll get the verdict of the Minister for Portsmouth on that

dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch! Hello, I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up in

the North West: Is football scoring an own goal? The MP who says the

Premier's League's grassroots funding is missing the target. Well

suited international footballers are earning millions of pounds, our

children do not have good enough facilities. It is about time that we

did. And let's kick off this week by

introducing our guests. Ben Wallace is the Conservative MP for Wyre and

Preston North. He's ministerial aide to Ken Clarke. And we have the

former Defence Minister, Derek Twigg, the Labour MP for Halton

Let's start by talking about fracking. Derek, do you favour

fracking? Yes, I do. Our party does as well. It has to be part of an

overall energy mix. It has to be properly regulated and monitored.

More needs to be done before we move too far ahead. If it is regulated

and it is part of a mix, you say we should start fracking? We should do

but it should be properly monitored. We need to make sure we have all the

information we need before it is done safely and take account of its

impact on communities, and our overall energy needs. I know you

have got issues about how much money comes macro back to communities ``

comes back. Is it a good idea? If we can make it safe, if we can protect

the environment, it is OK. It is better using gas and coal fire when

we generate our energy. Also, the idea that we have two import gas

from perhaps regimes with which we do not have a good relationship It

is good if we can do it ourselves and enrich the country and the

communities. We have strong environmental regulation in place.

We must adhere to that. We have strong regulators. Let's deal with

that and see what we can do for the people of North Wales.

The ongoing debate over fracking ` the process of drilling down into

the Earth to extract shale gas. This week the Government announced more

sweeteners to persuade local councils to get on board. But the

ongoing protest at Barton Moss near Salford is a reminder of how much

opposition fracking stirs up ` the policing bill has reached more than

?300,000. Euan Doak reports. This week, test drilling began amid

more protests from environmental campaigners at Barton Moss. On the

same day, the Prime Minister announced he was offering local

councils incentives to ignore them. This will help to bring jobs,

investment, industry and competitiveness to the north`west. I

want to make sure that local people benefit. At least one council leader

in the region says with the right health and safety and environmental

safeguards in place, the industry should be welcomed. If they can

assure us that is the case when the application comes before committee

and with the right community payback, I think we have got a

forward where we can at least a sensible discussion. The Government

has offered a 100% rebate on business rates ` that could be .7m

pounds for a typical site. And the industry is offering local

communities a ?100,000 grant when fracking begins, plus 1% of its

revenues during production. That could be ?10 million per wellhead.

But 12 MPs and council leaders from the Northwest said that deal is not

good enough. In this letter to the Prime Minister they say successive

governments have talked about closing the north, South divide

They say shale gas gives an opportunity to put actions to these

words. But the deal must be better. Why cant he sits down with the

cross`party group and negotiate with them for 10% of revenues to be

shared with local communities? Others say the incentives put our

councils in an impossible position. The public are already a bit

suspicious. They feel the power is on one side and the community does

not have much of a say in planning. Here we are, a financial incentive

to go ahead. Most authorities, including Salford, our cash

strapped. Here is what looks like a bribe to them if they go ahead with

shale gas exploration and fracking. When you add in the costs of

policing protests like these, then the financial argument about

fracking still has a long way to go. And we're also joined now by

Councillor Jenny Mein, the Labour leader of Lancashire County Council.

Then, you have written this letter to the pro Minister. We have got

money that is earmarked for councils, money that is earmarked

for communities. Which part should be larger? I think the larger should

be predominately councils the county for the region at large. If you look

at the United States, where Dakota took $13 billion alone last year. We

are talking about sums of money which is valued at ?266 billion from

shale. We would like some real sums. The Treasury announcement on Monday

was giving away business rate it does not yet have. It amounted to

?850,000 per site. We are talking about transformational sums that

will help to rebalance Britain. The local government Association has

aimed at 10%. I would be willing to negotiate somewhere around there.

You might want more than that? If we aim high, we may get the target My

constituents and Jenny's constituents, the gas is beneath our

feet. We do not want the Treasury taking 62% from beneath our feet and

disappearing down south. We want to feel some ownership of this gas and

use it for a real solid economic development that would rebalance

Britain and transform the north`west. Jenny, let me bring you

in. Have we moved on from a question about safety and regulation, to a

question of how much money we can get? Absolutely not. Safety is of

paramount concern. Lots of issues have to be addressed. We passed a

motion last year calling for a far tougher regulation and actually to

have industry specific regulations that will monitor what happens. I

think in the letter that you have written to the pro Minister, you

talk about a second industrial revolution. You talk about the fact

that you could be real supporters of this if the Government gives you the

right amount of money? We do not talk about whether or not we would

be true supporters. As the determinant authority when it comes

to planning permission, we have got to stay neutral. The Government is

obviously in favour of fracking therefore we need to make sure that

if, when that happens, the people of Lancashire get the just benefits

from it. I am glad you raised the issue of planning permission.

Barbara Keeley thinks it is a conflict of interests? There is not

a council in the land that does not need money. That is her point, that

councils are the wrong people to be deciding on this because it is a

conflict of interest? Any benefits that could accrue from fracking will

not come on stream for years to come. At this point, Lancashire

County Council has got to save 300 million within four years because of

the cuts the Government has taken. If we get any money from fracking,

that will not alleviate the problem. Do you buy this idea that this could

bridge the North, South divide? I don't think it is going to do that.

If communities are impacted, they should get some benefit. That should

be fair and significant. This is not a panacea for our energy problems.

Even the departments of energy and I add in's on adviser says it will not

make any difference to the price. Safety and the wages monitored is of

paramount importance. It has to be part of an energy mix. You are in a

constituency which has got a lot of heavy industry. Are there quite keen

on it? Yes, any loss, one of our biggest chemical companies, they use

a similar amount to what a city like Liverpool users. They are working

very hard with the Government. So fracking is one possible source

of extra funding for our councils in a week when two of our largest

announced their latest budget plans. Lancashire County Council is looking

to save around ?300 million over the next four years. As a result, 2 500

jobs will have to go. Meanwhile Liverpool City Council needs to save

?156 million over the next three years. It's cutting so`called

discretionary services like leisure centres, cultural events and

regeneration projects by 50%. And mandatory services like social care,

environmental health and bin collections are being cut by a

quarter. Jenny, let's go back to you on this

one. How much will services be damaged as a result of these cuts?

Let's be honest, I didn't come into politics to take ?300 million out of

our budget. That has been forced upon us by government cuts and the

pressures of demand, which are growing. I am positive we will be

able to maintain the best services for vulnerable people. But it cannot

be left unsaid that it is quite likely `` likely that some

non`statutory services will have to be reduced, and some may even go.

What are we talking about? Give us some possible examples. I really

cannot give you any examples at the moment. I do not want to discuss

where jobs may be lost in the public without speaking to staff directly.

It would be most unfair. Is it fair to say that council taxpayers in

Lancashire will certainly have felt the impact of this by the end of the

two years? By the end of the four years. They most definitely will

have. There are some services that we can no longer provide. We are

looking at it strategically, which is why we have announced these

losses early in the game, so people can plan. We are putting processes

in place so people can move into different areas of work if they want

to remain with the County Council. I'm going to have to stop you there.

Ben, how do you feel about the cuts that have been imposed on local

government? To I don't want cuts. I didn't go into politics either to

cut. I cannot remember any time when councils have not had to make cuts.

Whether it is because we have to deal with the deficit we inherited.

I can never remember a period like this in terms of scale? You're

right. I cannot also remember any government inheriting the biggest

deficit since the war. We all have to find money. Are you worried that

councils may be getting cut too deeply or not? Am I worried? I don't

want it to happen but it has to happen. I'd take the view that the

economy is turning a corner. The Labour opposition said we had to

slow down the cuts. They were too fast and too deep. And plan B was

supposed to solve it. If the economy start and continues to turn the

corner, hopefully those cuts will be mitigated in the long term in the

future. For now, we have to balance the books. Derek, what will the

future of local government be under a Labour government? The problems

with the deficit, in terms of the economy, or caused by the banks not

the last government. One of the key things that should be made clear is

that cuts are not just taking place, it is unfair in the way that they

are being done. Those councils that are the most deprived are having the

biggest cuts. A lot of the richer councils are not having that. There

is a subtle moved by this government now where they are going to move

away from facing funding on needs, to actually spending what you can

raise. That will gear more money again towards the south. Jenny,

thank you for joining us. Well, from grassroots politics to

grassroots football. We have three of the world's ten richest clubs `

Manchester United, Manchester City and Liverpool. And there's even more

cash coming in with the latest multi`billion pound TV deal. But one

of our MPs is campaigning for the Premier League to be a little more

generous when it comes to supporting local communities. Here's Stuart

Pollitt. Wayne Rooney has devoted his life to

football. In return he gets 200 000 a week. Tom and Lesley Allon have

devoted their life to football as well. They do it for nothing. Every

evening, weekend, Saturday, Sunday, at least two hours a night. If we

didn't do it, the kids would not be able to play football. And all too

often those kids are struggling to play football because, at grassroots

level, there's a lack of, well, grass. It's all muddy and it is real

hard to play. The ball gets stock. Teams like Horwich St Mary's need

money. Their MP has launched a petition saying they should get it

from the Premier League. Whilst international footballers are

earning millions of pounds a year, our children don't have good enough

facilities. It is about time they did. The Premier League will bring

in upwards of ?5 billion from TV income in the next three years. This

petition calls for 7.5% of that ` around 375 million ` to go to

grassroots football. The Premier League is promising ?168 million,

half of that amount. Some of that Premier League money,

350,000, was spent here on four pitches at Wigan Youth Zone.

We have now got over 8000 members. We were looking for 3000. The centre

was the brainchild of Wigan Athletic owner Dave Whelan. His club were in

the Premier League until last season.

The Premier League get criticised for not helping other nations, other

football communities, but they do an awful lot of work. You are happy

with the level of contribution? They could always do more. If they could

contribute a little more, we would all be thankful. We should say

thanks very much for what they do already.

Those who are keeping the grassroots game going, remain worried.

Children's football is at the bottom of the pyramid and we need some

help. At the moment we need some help. At the moment we run clubhouse

or changing rooms. We have nothing. There will be no shortage of pitches

here at Manchester City's new training complex, where they are

building 16 alongside some community facilities. While one club continues

to spend more on wages in a single year, demands for the game to spread

its wealth will surely only grow. Derek, what do you think, should the

Premier League be spending more Yes, I'd like to see them spending

more. Part of the problem stems from how the game is now government. The

Premier League is very powerful They do have to do more in terms of

supporting grassroots football. We need to see exchange. David wants to

double the amount of money going in. Is that right? I think David has got

a strong case. I would support him. It is how schools are involved,

making sure we give kids a chance to develop. Facilities are important,

but coaching kids in the correct way, so we can see more top class

home`grown players getting to the clubs we have been talking about.

Isn't there a problem, Ben, that you can shout as loudly as you like as

politicians, but organisations like the Premier League tend not to do

this and? `` listen. I think they should. All sport is anchored in the

unity is that they sit in. The Premier League is getting more and

more away from the rest of football. It has become so Super League, I

think people start asking questions about what it is for. Local

supporters have to pay a lot of money to watch a game. If you fall

out of the Premier League, it can be pretty horrendous financially for a

club that is not a regular in the top flight. And English football is

not doing well on the international sports scene. How the force them to

take notice? You have to remind them of the importance of the community.

You are only as good as the community you sit amongst. And

secondly, you need to say that all good businesses invest in their

future skills base. If you do not want, in the future, the skills base

from abroad or anywhere else to take from you, you should be investing

from the grassroots because you will reap the benefits. You are a big

Liverpool fan. What could they be doing? Clubs have a responsibility.

They are part of the Premier League and they need to use their influence

within the Premier League. Liverpool have had a very good community

involvement. It is about working more closely with the grassroots

clubs, schools... Also, finding the money to put into develop these

grassroots. We see so many talents that we could have had, do not get

to the top. It is about putting resources in.

Time for the rest of the week's news now ` here's a round`up in 60

seconds. Senior politicians gathered in

Salford this week to pay their respects to Paul Goggins. The Labour

leadership and the Commons speaker were among the guests at the funeral

of the Wythenshawe and Sale East MP, who died last week aged 60.

Morecambe MP David Morris tabled a Commons motion calling for the

Hillcroft Care Home owners to apologise ` three care workers were

found guilty of abusing dementia patients at the home near Lancaster.

Give her boys back ` a mum whose twins were taken from her by a court

in Austria, had her case raised in the Commons by the Blackley and

Broughton MP, Graham Stringer. Mistake has been made but now they

need to correct it and give me my children back.

Bottom of the class ` Blackpool s plans to improve secondary schools

were described as dire. The council is not being

sufficiently challenging. And Jim Dobbin led calls for the

Teletubbies to tear down the barriers to democracy. The Labour MP

says showing them in North Korea could help bring down the

dictatorship. Derek, as we just saw, an impressive

turnout this week for Paul Goggins' funeral? It was an amazing turnout.

This shows how well liked, how well respected, and what a tremendous

politician Paul was. He will be very badly missed. He had so much

ability. Let's have a listen to some of the tributes paid to him.

Paul Goggins had a capacity for getting his words and his ideas

across without the kind of aggression which is often a feature

of the British political system He was a Labour man to the core of his

being, yet he was actually the least tribal of politicians. When I came

into Parliament, whenever I had difficulty, I would always seek out

Paul and ask him what to do. He always steered me on the right pad.

`` part. We feel we have lost one of our own and one of our best in Paul

Goggins. Then, what could MPs learn from him?

Exactly in some sense what the speaker said. He was clearly a

Labour man but he was not partisan. He was pair `` fair`minded, decent

and honest. People have forgotten that good politicians, it comes down

to believe and honesty. He was bowled. That is what we can learn.

Thank you both. Now we return houses being built by the mayor

Andrew, back to you. Welcome back. Now she made quite a splash last

night. I am talking, of course, of the Portsmouth North MP, Penny

Mordaunt. If you missed her first appearance in ITV's celebrity diving

competition show, here she is in action.

APPLAUSE Here is a lady who is more used to

campaigning for votes than diving for them. She created far too much

rotation. Hard work has gone into the start of this dive to try and

control it. That looked painful Now the Portsmouth North MP got voted

off the show last night but what about the verdict that really

matters? The newly appointed Minister for Portsmouth, Michael

Fallon, is here. Welcome to the programme. I would give her ten out

of ten for bravery. I was cheering her on. She was doing this for a

local charity, raising money for the local swimming pool. She was a good

sport. As Minister for Portsmouth, can we expect to see you in your

swimming trunks for the next series? I do not think I have the

spare time at the moment. But there is a big challenge in Portsmouth.

Penny Mordaunt and the other local MPs there have been remorseless in

asking ministers to help the city. They are losing jobs. There is a

goblin Trinity -- there is a big opportunity to create jobs. Should

she have been on a celebrity television show of their role these

problems in Portsmouth? This was in her spare time and it is raising

money for a good cause. I do not think we should eat two sniffy about

it. Did I not see you dressed up on Thursday night, doing your

programme? This is my job. This is not her job. It was in her spare

time, she was raising money for a local charity. Your Minister for

Portsmouth. Are we going to have a minister for every town? Are we

going to have a minister for Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury

does not have the issues that Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth

has. There are jobs at risk in shipbuilding. The government puts in

a lot of money through the regional growth fund, some ?20 million. There

are range of government funding streams going into Portsmouth. My

job is to make sure that is properly coordinated. I need to make sure

that Portsmouth seizes this opportunity to develop a more

broadly -based marine and maritime economy. To make sure a marginal

seat stays Tory at the next election? There are marginal seats

everywhere. There is a Liberal Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince

Cable and I have been working together for the issues that

Portsmouth is facing. We work on these things together. But I have

the very specific job of making sure that the effort on the ground is

coordinated. So Vince Cable is not the Minister for Portsmouth? I have

been there recently, so has Vince Cable. So there are two ministers

for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am making sure that the effort is

properly coordinated on the ground. I am determined to turn this

challenging time into a proper opportunity. Should we be to Paul

faced about this? No, good honour. How much money would be have to pay

you to get into a swimming costume? Bid is not enough money in the BBC

covers. Good on her. It took seven years to get a leg there's an MP.

She should be a minister. It is a pity she has the spare time to do

this. She is very talented. It is interesting about the Minister for

Portsmouth, up in the north-east they must be sad that they do not

have any marginal seats. Nick Brown as David Cameron last July, can we

have a minister for the north-east, and the Prime Minister is said no?

Does this mean that Portsmouth is more deprived economic late than the

north-east? No, it means it is a marginal seat.

The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew Marr programme this

morning and he outlined plans under a Labour government for an annual

competition audit. Here is what he had to say. The next Labour

government will have an annual competition at it, not just done by

the regulatory body. Alongside them will be the citizens advice bureau,

setting the agenda for the future, setting the agenda for how we can

ensure that competition will benefit consumers and businesses. I want to

see Labour going into the next election as the party of

competition, the party of the consumer, the party of hard-pressed

working families who are struggling. They need somebody to deal with

those issues and that is what the next Labour government will do. I

thought you were meant to be the party of competition? We are the

party of competition. This is the party that has given us some of

these problems. We have an annual competition review in the energy

sector. We have already tackling banking. What is interesting about

his proposal is it is the smaller ones who are less sure about this,

the smaller banks who think that this could inhibit the growth. It is

the smaller energy companies who think that through interfering with

the market, through his price freeze, that he will hinder

competition. We spoke about this before. It is a clever pitch that Ed

Miliband is making. Under the guise of token markets and claiming to be

the party of competition, he is creating the reason for state

intervention? -- broken markets Exactly, and it is state

intervention that does not work There is a proud tradition in

government of smashing open cartels. Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a

century ago. The problem is, in those situations it was clear and

obvious that the consumers were suffering. I am not sure it is

entirely obvious in this country. In the banking sector we have free

current accounts in the high street. That is not true in all Western

countries. In the energy sector our bills are not outlandish they high.

It is when we take taxes into account the become unaffordable He

has to make the case that consumers are suffering as a result of these

monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it is not about state intervention but

about making markets work. The piece that was written by his intellectual

Duryea about the significance and the importance of Teddy Roosevelt.

He was the Republican president in the yearly -- in the early years of

the last century. He wanted markets to work. There is an interesting

debate on Twitter this morning. Tim Montgomerie is saying, why are we,

the Conservative Party, not seen as the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are

seen as the party of business. There are smaller energy companies

competing against the big six. In banking, we have seen smaller

companies coming. It was the Labour government that created the big six

energy companies. I think Teddy Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the

Philippines. That could give us a clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign

policy. Nigel Farage has promised to purge the party of its more extreme

candidates ahead of the European Council elections in May. But that

may not be going so well. Listen to this. The latest in this process is

these homosexual laws. And Thomas I shall manage. I believe that the

Prime Minister, who was warned that disasters would follow a three went

in this direction, he has persisted, and I believe that this is largely a

repercussion from this godlessness that he has persisted in. The

instructions I have got from now on, or is just not to answer in, and not

to give interviews such as this one. So you are ignoring them? I am not

ignoring them. But you are talking to me? You are the last one I shall

be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it It

is not global warming that is causing the floods, it is gay

marriage? That explains it. Last year David Cameron offered a coded

retraction of his statement that UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think

he will be tempted to retract the retraction. It is a warning to lots

of Tories who think that their best interests are served by flirting

with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage is a very plausible guy, but several

layers down, there are people who are very different. Nigel Farage is

saying that he's going to clear the party out of what Mr Cameron called

the fruitcakes. If he is true to his word, Mr Sylvester's days in the

party should they numbered. If Nigel Farage falls under the bus, what is

left of place -- what is left of UKIP? People say that they like UKIP

because unlike other politicians, they speak their mind. But as it

turns into more of a proper organisation, people speaking their

mind will be less acceptable. The European elections are always a

protest vote. People are not happy with the elite. You will get people

saying utterly ridiculous things like that man in Henley-on-Thames.

But this is a chance to vote against the entire political establishment.

I am not sure that comments like that will make much of a difference.

There are lots of arguments about climate change. That was certainly a

new one! They are the only big protest party at the moment. Protest

party is obviously hoovered up lots of votes. We have got to be clear in

European message that we are the only party that can reform Europe

and give people a proper choice the first referendum in over 40 years.

Mr Sylvester used to be a conservative. You're probably glad

to see the back of him? David Cameron is right, there are probably

a few fruitcakes around there. I think that mainstream conservatives

will understand that this is the only party that can secure European

reform and give people the choice they have been arguing for. Whatever

happens in the European elections, it is a protest vote. We have almost

run out of time. We will see this week of Chris Rennard gets the party

whip act. There is a battle brewing between Danny Alexander and the

common side of the Liberal Democrats and the House of Lords. If he turns

up on Monday and asks to be let in, I they going to make a big scene at

the gate of Parliament? And the issue will stay in the papers? Yes,

they are clearly nervous that Lord Rennard might be tempted to mount a

legal bid. That is all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily

Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two. And I will be here again

next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.