09/02/2014 Sunday Politics North West

morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Rising flood water,

a battered coastline, the winter storms forced the Government to take

control. Is it hanging the Environment Agency out to dry?

Embarrassment for the Government is the Immigration Minister resigns

after he discovered he was employing a cleaner with no right to work here

for seven years. Ed Miliband promised an end to what he called

the machine politics of union fixes in the Labour Party,

And in the North West: Putting themselves in the shop window for

Westminster. Who's going to be our newest MP? Four candidates

In London after two days of disruption in the capital the Mayor

Boris Johnson will be talking to ask about strife on the Underground All

of that and after a week of very public coalition spats can David

Cameron and Nick Clegg keep the coalition show on the road? Two

senior party figures will go head to head. And with me, Helen Lewis, Nick

Watt and Iain Martin who would not know they Somerset Levels from their

Norfolk Broads, but that will not stop them tweeting their thoughts.

We start with the strange Case of the Immigration Minister, his

cleaner and some lost documents Yesterday Mark Harper tendered his

resignation, telling the media he had discovered the cleaner who

worked for him for seven years did not have the right to work in the

UK. The Communities Secretary Eric Pickles said he had done the

honourable thing. I was sad to see him go, he was a strong minister.

Had he been a member of the public he would not have done anything

wrong, but he set himself a very high standard and he felt that

standard and honourably stood down. This would seem like a good

resignation, maybe unlike the Baroness Scotland one years ago on a

similar issue, but have we been told the full story? We wait to see that.

Labour have picked up saying he is an honourable man, that the reason

why he resigned is these very owners checks that landlords and employers

will have to perform on employees over their documentation. The most

interesting line is that, we do not require them to be experts or spot

anything other than an obvious forgery. The suggestion that there

is the document he was presented with originality, which he lost was

on home office paper and was perhaps not entirely accurate. That is the

embarrassment. He is the minister putting through a bill that will

demand tougher checks on people and he himself did not do enough checks

to discover she was illegal. There is an odd bit where he involves the

home office later to check her out as well. He writes a resignation

letter and he has to hold himself to pay higher standard. He has done the

David Laws approach to this, resign quickly and he can come back. David

Cameron wants him to return swiftly to the frontbenchers. He is a state

school educated lad. He is the kind of Tory that the Tories are in short

supply of. He is a rising star. I would caution on this idea that it

is customary that whenever anyone resigns, it is always thought they

will come straight back into office. If only the outside world worked

like that. It is not, in a company if the HR person resigns, he is such

a great chap he will be back next week. There is a silver lining for

David Cameron is he has been able to move Harriet Bond up as he moves

everyone up. But nobody will see her in the whips office because she is

not allowed to appear on television. And if you three want to resign Do

not hate you are coming back next week. But we will do it with honour.

It has been a hellish week for residents of coastal areas with more

storms bringing more flooding and after Prince Charles visited the

Somerset Levels on Tuesday the Government has been keen to show it

has got a grip on the situation at last.

For last weekend's Sunday Politics I made the watery journey to the

village of Muchelney, cut off for a whole month. Now everyone has been

dropping in. First it was Prince Charles on a park bench pulled by a

tractor. He waded into the row about how the floods have been handled.

Next it was the chair of the Environment Agency, Lord Smith, who

faced angry residents. Sought the river is out. That is precisely what

we are going to do. Where he faced, a resident, he did not need that

many. David Cameron went for a look as well and gave the region what it

wanted, more pumps, more money and in the long-term the return of

dredging. There are lessons to learn. The pause in bridging that

took place from the late 1990s was wrong and we need to get dredging

again. When the water levels come down and it is safe to dredge, we

will dredging to make sure these rivers and stitches can carry a

better capacity. The Environment Secretary Owen Paterson has not been

seen again because he is recovering from emergency eye surgery. In the

meantime the floodwaters rose ever higher. Some residents were told to

evacuate. In Devon the railway was washed away by the waves leaving a

big gap in the network. Look at the weather this weekend. If you can

believe it, the storms keep rolling in. What is the long-term solution

for flood prone areas of the country? I am joined from Oxford by

the editor of The Ecologist magazine, Oliver Tickell, and by

local MP Tessa Munt. Tessa, let me come to you first. What do you now

want the Government to do? I want it to make sure it does exactly as it

promises and delivers what every farmer and landowner around here

knows should have been done for years. First, to solve the problems

we have right now, but to make sure there is money in the bank for us to

carry on doing the maintenance that is necessary. Was it a mistake not

to do the dredging? When the waters start to subside does dredging

become a key part of this? Yes, of course. It is something the farmers

have been asking for four years When you wander along a footpath by

a river and you see trees growing and there is 60% of the capacity

only because there is silt, it needs to have a pretty dramatic action

right now and then we need to make sure the maintenance is ongoing

Oliver Tickell, was it a mistake to stop the dredging? If the dredging

had happened, the land would not be covered in water for so long?

Clearly it is necessary to do at least some dredging on these rivers

and in particular because these rivers are well above ground level.

They are carrying water that comes down off the hills well above the

level of the flood plain on the Somerset Levels. They naturally tend

to silt up. But the key thing is that is only a small part of the

overall solution. What we need is a catchment wide approach to improve

infiltration upstream and you also need to manage the flood plain on

the levels and upstream so as to have active flood plain that can

store water. This idea it is just about dredging is erroneous.

Dredging is a part of it, but it is a catchment wide solution. Dredging

is only a small part of the solution he says. Yes, of course it is. But

look here. With the farmer is locally, the landowners, they know

this land will carry water for a few weeks of the year, that is not a

problem. But this water has to be taken away and there is a very good

system of drainage and it works perfectly well. In my area there are

serious problems because the dredging has not taken place. There

are lunatic regulations around were when they do do some of dredging,

the Environment Agency is asked to take it away because it is

considered toxic waste. This is barmy. We need to take the stuff out

of the rivers and build the banks up so we create protection in the

future. We have to make sure the dredging is done but make sure the

drainage works well and we have pumps in places and we have

floodgates put onto the rivers. We need to make sure repairs are done

more quickly. All right, let me go back to Oliver Tickell. Is it not

the case a lot of people on your side of the argument would like to

see lands like the Somerset Levels return to natural habitat? Looe I

would like a degree of that, but that does not mean the whole place

needs to turn into wilderness so it will remain agricultural landscape.

Everybody, all the interested parties who signed up to a document

called vision 2034 the Somerset Levels envisages most of the area of

the Somerset Levels being turned over to extensive grassland and that

is what it is best suited for. Let me put that to Tessa Munt. Have you

signed up to this where you will end up with extensive grassland? I have

seen it, but grass does not grow if water is sitting on this land for

weeks and weeks. What you have to remember is a lot of the levels are

managed very carefully and they are conservation land and that means

cattle are allowed to go out at certain times of the year and in

certain numbers. It is well managed. Do you accept it should return to

grassland? Grassland, fine, but you cannot call land grassland in the

flipping water is on it so long that nothing grows. It is no good at

doing that. You have got to make sure it is managed properly.

Drainage has been taking place on this land for centuries. It is the

case the system is there, but it needs to be maintained properly and

we have to have fewer ridiculous regulations that stop action. Last

year the flooding minister agreed dredging should take place and

everything stopped. Now we have got the promise from the Prime Minister

and I thank Prince Charles for that. Is it not time to let the local

people run their land rather than being told what to do by the

Environment Agency, central Government and the European Union?

The internal drainage boards have considerable power in all of this.

They wanted to dredge and they were not allowed to. The farmers want to

dredge that is what is going to happen, but they have signed up to a

comprehensive vision of catchment management and of environmental

improvement turning the Somerset Levels into a world-class haven for

wildlife. It is not much good if your house is underwater. The

farmers themselves, the RSPB, the drainage boards, they have all

signed up to this. The real question now is how do we implement that

vision? You give the money to the drainage boards. At the moment they

pay 27% of their money and have been doing so for years and years and

this is farmers' money and it has been going to the drainage boards

and they pay the Environment Agency who are meant to be dredging and

that has not happened. We have to leave it there. We have run out of

time. Last week saw the Labour Party

adopts an historic change with its relationship with the unions.

Changes to the rules that propelled Ed Miliband to the top. Ed Miliband

was elected Labour leader in 20 0 by the electoral college system which

gives unions, party members and MPs one third of votes each. This would

be changed into a simpler one member, one vote system. A union

member would have to become an affiliated member of the party. They

would have to opt in and pay ?3 a year. But the unions would have 50%

of the vote at the conference and around one third of the seats on the

National executive committee. The proposals are a financial gamble as

well. It is estimated the party could face a drop in funding of up

to ?5 million a year when the changes are fully implemented in

five years. The leader of the Unite trade union has welcomed the report

saying it is music to his ears. The package will be voted on at a

special one of conference in March. And the Shadow Business Secretary

Chuka Umunna joins me now for the Sunday Interview. Welcome back. In

what way will the unions have less power and influence in the Labour

Party? This is about ensuring individual trade union members have

a direct relationship with the Labour Party. At the moment the

monies that come to us are decided at a top level, the general

secretaries determine this, whether the individual members want us to be

in receipt of those monies or not so we are going to change that so that

affiliation fees follow the consent of individual members. Secondly we

want to make sure the individual trade union members, people who

teach our children, power via - fantastic British businesses, we

want them to make an active choice, and we are also recognising that in

this day and age not everybody wants to become a member of a political

party. We haven't got much time The unions still have 50% of the vote at

Labour conferences, there will be the single most important vote, more

member -- union members will vote than nonunion members, their power

has not diminished at all, has it? In relation to the other parts of

the group of people who will be voting in a future leadership

contest, we are seeking to move towards more of a one member, one

vote process. At the moment we have the absurd situation where I, as a

member of Parliament, my vote will count for 1000. MPs are losing. .

They still have a lot of power. I am a member of the GMB union and the

Unite union, also a member of the Fabians as well so I get free votes

on top of my vote as a member of Parliament. We are moving to a

system where I will have one vote and that is an important part of

this. You asked how many people would be casting their votes. The

old system, up to 2.8 million ballot papers were sent out with prepaid

envelopes for people to return their papers were sent out with prepaid

turnout. The idea that you are going to see a big change... Even if

your individual party members. In one vital way, your purse strings,

your individual party members. In the unions will be more powerful

than ever because at the moment they have to hand over 8 million to

than ever because at the moment they fraction of that now. They will get

to keep that money, but then come the election you go to them and give

them a lot of money -- and they will have you then. They won't have us,

as you put it! The idea that individual trade union members don't

have their own view, their own voice, and just do what their

general secretaries do is absurd. They will make their own decision,

and we want them to make that and not have their leadership decide

that for them. Let me go to the money. The Labour Party manifesto

will be reflecting the interests of Britain, and the idea that somehow

people can say we are not going to give you this money unless you do

this or that, we will give you a policy agenda which is appropriate

for the British people, regardless of what implications that may have

financially. They will have more seats than anybody else in the NEC

and they will hold the purse strings. They will be the

determining factor. They won't be. Unite is advocating a 70% rate of

income tax, there is no way we will have that in our manifesto. Unite is

advocating taking back contracts and no compensation basis, we would not

-- there is no way we would do that. How many chief executives of the

FTSE 100 are backing Labour? We have lots of chief executives backing

Labour. I don't know the exact number. Ed Miliband has just placed

an important business person in the House of Lords, the former chief

executive of the ITV, Bill Grimsey. How many? You can only name one

Bill Grimsey, there is also John Mills. Anyone who is currently

chairman of the chief executive With the greatest respect, you are

talking about less than half the percent of business leaders in our

country, we have almost 5 million businesses, not all FTSE 100

businesses, not all listed, and we are trying to get people from across

the country of all different shapes and sizes. Let's widen it to the

FTSE 250. That is 250 out of 5 million companies. The largest ones,

they make the profits and provide the jobs. Two thirds of private

sector jobs in this country come from small and medium-sized

businesses, and small and medium-sized businesses are an

important part of a large companies supply chains. So you cannot name a

single chairman from the FTSE 2 0, correct? I don't know all the

chairman. Are you going to fight the next election without a single boss

of a FTSE 250 company? I have named some important business people, but

the most important thing is that we are not coming out with a manifesto

for particular interests, but for broader interest. Let me show you,

Digby Jones says Labour's policy is, "if it creates wealth, let's kick

it" . Another quote, that it borders on predatory taxation. They think

you are anti-business. I don't agree with them. One of the interesting

things about Sir Stuart's comments on the predatory taxation and I

think he was referring to the 5 p rate of tax is that he made some

comments arguing against the reduction of the top rate of tax

from 50p. He is saying something different now. Digby of course has

his own opinions, he has never been a member of the Labour Party. Let me

come onto this business of the top rate of tax, do you accept or don't

you that there is a point when higher rates of income tax become

counter-productive? Ultimately you want to have the lowest tax rates

possible. Do you accept there is a certain level you actually get less

money? I think ultimately there is a level beyond you could go which

would be counter-productive, for example the 75% rate of tax I

mentioned earlier, being advocated by Unite in France. Most French

higher earners will pay less tax than under your plans. I beg your

pardon, with the 50p? Under your proposals, people here will pay more

tax than French higher earners. If you are asking if in terms of the

level, you asked the question and I answered it, do I think if you reach

a level beyond which the tax burden becomes counter-productive, can I

give you a number what that would be, I cannot but let me explain -

the reason we have sought to increase its two 50p is that we can

get in revenue to reduce the deficit. In an ideal world you

wouldn't need a 50p rate of tax which is why during our time in

office we didn't have one, because we didn't have those issues. Sure,

though you cannot tell me how much the 50p will raise. In the three

years of operation we think it raised ?10 billion. You think. That

was based on extrapolation from the British library. It is at least

possible I would suggest, for the sake of argument, that when you

promise to take over half people's income, which is what you will do if

you get your way, the richest 1 currently account for 70 5% of all

tax revenues. -- 75%. Is it not a danger that if you take more out of

them, they will just go? I don't think so, we are talking about the

top 1% here. If you look at the directors of sub 5 million turnover

companies, the average managing director of that gets around

?87,000. Let me narrow it down to something else. Let's take the .1%

of top taxpayers, down to fewer than 30,000 people. They account for over

14% of all of the income tax revenues. Only 29,000 people. If

they go because you are going to take over half their income, you

have lost a huge chunk of your tax base. They could easily go, at

tipping point they could go. What we are advocating here is not

controversial. Those with the broadest shoulders, it is not

unreasonable to ask them to share the heavier burden. Can you name one

other major economy that subscribes to this? Across Europe, for example

in Sweden they have higher tax rates than us. Can you name one major

economy? I couldn't pluck one out of the air, I can see where you are

coming from, I don't agree with it. I think most people subscribe to the

fact that those with wider shoulders should carry the heavy a burden We

have run out of time but thank you for being here.

Over the past week it seems that Nick Clegg has activated a new Lib

Dem strategy - 'Get Gove'. After a very public spat over who should

head up the schools inspection service Ofsted, Lib Dem sources have

continued to needle away at the Education Secretary. And other

senior Lib Dems have also taken aim at their coalition partners. Here's

Giles Dilnot. It's unlikely the polite welcome of these school

children to Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg and his party colleague

schools minister David Laws would be so forthcoming right now from the

man in charge of schools Conservative Michael Gove. Mr Laws

is said to have been furious with The Education secretary over the

decision to remove Sally Morgan as chair of Ofsted. But those who know

the inner working of the Lib Dems say that's just understandable. When

you have the department not being consulted, it would be possible for

him to not publicly comment. The remarkable thing would be if he

hadn't said anything at all. We should be careful to understand this

is not always part of a preplanned decision. There is a growing sense

that inside Number Ten this is a concerted Lib Dem strategy, we also

understand there is no love lost between Nick Clegg and Michael Gove

to say the least, and a growing frustration that if the Lib Dems

think such so-called yellow and blue attacks can help them with the

election, they can also damage the long-term prospects of the Coalition

post 2015. One spat does not a divorce make but perhaps even more

significant has been Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander s

recent newspaper interview firmly spiking any room for George Osborne

to manoeuvre on lowering the highest income tax rate to 40p. All this

builds on the inclusion in Government at the reshuffle of

people like Norman Baker at the Home Office and Simon Hughes at Justice

people who are happier to publically express doubt on Conservative

policy, unlike say Jeremy Browne who was removed and who has made plain

his views on Coalition. It is difficult for us to demonstrate that

we are more socialist than an Ed Miliband Labour led party. Even if

we did wish to demonstrate it, doing it in coalition with the

Conservatives would be harder still. Nonetheless a differentiation

strategy was always likely as 2 15 approached, so is there evidence it

works? Or of the work we publish shows the Lib Dems have a huge

problem in terms of their distinctiveness, so attacking their

coalition partners or the Labour Party is helpful in showing what

they are against, but there are bigger problem is showing what they

are for. And one Conservative MP with access to Number Ten as part of

the PM's policy board says yellow on blue attacks are misplaced and

irresponsible. At this stage when all the hard work is being done and

the country is back on its feet the Lib Dems are choosing the time to

step away from the coalition. That is your position, but do you suspect

coming up to the next election we will see more of this? I think the

Lib Dems are about as hard to pin down as a weasel in Vaseline. And

with the public's view of politicians right now, and wants to

be seen as slicker than a well oiled weasel? And we have Lib Dem peer

Matthew Oakeshott and senior Conservative backbencher Bernard

Jenkin. Matthew, the Lib Dems are now picking fights with the Tories

on a range of issues, some of them trivial. Is this a Pirelli used to

Lib Dem withdrawal from the coalition? I do not know, I am not

privy to Nick Clegg's in strategy. Some of us have been independent for

some time. I resigned over treatment of the banks. That is now being

sorted out. But what is significant is we have seen a string of attacks,

almost an enemy within strategy When you have Nick Clegg, David Laws

and Danny Alexander, the three key people closest to the Conservatives,

when you see all of them attacking, and this morning Nick Clegg has had

a go at the Conservatives over drug policy. There is a string of

policies where something is going on. It is difficult to do an enemy

within strategy. I believe as many Lib Dems do that we should withdraw

from the coalition six months to one year before the election so we can

put our positive policies across rather than having this tricky

strategy of trying to do it from within. Why does David Cameron need

the Lib Dems? He probably does not. The country generally favoured the

coalition to start with. Voters like to see politicians are working

together and far more of that goes on in Westminster then we see. Most

of my committee reports are unanimous reports from all parties.

Why does he need them? I do not think he does. You would be happy to

see the Lib Dems go? I would always be happy to see a single minority

Government because it would be easier for legislation. The

legislation you could not get through would not get through

whether we were in coalition or not. The 40p tax rate, there

probably is not a majority in the House of Commons at the moment,

despite what Nick Clegg originally said. It does not make much

difference. What makes a difference from the perspective of the

committee I chair is historically we have had single party Government

that have collective responsibility and clarity. The reason that is

important is because nothing gets done if everybody is at sixes and

sevens in the Government. Everything stops, there is paralysis as the row

goes on. Civil servants do not know who they are working for. If it

carries on getting fractures, there is a bigger argument to get out If

it continues at this level of intensity of the enemy within

strategy as you have described it, can the coalition survived another

16 months of this? It is also a question should they. I never

thought I would say this, I agree with Bernard. Interestingly earlier

Chuka Umunna missed the point talking about business support.

Business is worried about this anti-European rhetoric and that is a

deep split between the Liberal Democrats and the UKIP wing of the

Tory party. That is really damaging and that is something we need to

make our own case separately on Do you get fed up when you hear

constant Lib Dem attacks on you What makes me fed up is my own party

cannot respond in kind because we are in coalition. I would love to

have this much more open debate I would like to see my own party

leader, for example as he did in the House of Commons, it was the Liberal

Democrats who blocked the referendum on the house of lords and if we want

to get this bill through it should be a Government bill. We know we can

get it through the Commons, but we need to get the Liberals out of the

Government so they stop blocking the Government putting forward a

referendum bill. And put millions of jobs at risk? I am not going down

the European road today. It strikes me that given that the attacks from

the Lib Dems are now coming from the left attacking the Tories, is this a

representative of the failure of Nick Clegg's strategy to rebuild a

centrist Liberal party and he now accepts the only way he can save as

many seats as he can do is to get the disillusioned left Lib Dem

voters to come back to the fold The site is we have lost over half our

vote at the last election and at the moment there is no sign in the polls

of it coming back and we are getting very close to the next election I

welcome it if Nick Clegg is starting to address that problem, but talking

about the centre is not the answer. Most Liberal Democrat voters at the

last election are radical, progressive people who want to see a

much fairer Britain and a much less divided society and we must make

sure we maximise our vote from there. We know what both of you

want, but what do you think will happen? Do you think this coalition

will survive all the way to the election or will it break up

beforehand? I think it will break up beforehand. Our long-term economic

plan is working. The further changes in policies we want to implement to

sustain that plan are being held back by the Liberal Democrats. When

will they break up? It has lasted longer than I thought it would, but

it must break up at least six months before the election. Do you think it

will survive or not? The coalition has delivered a great deal in many

ways, but it is running out of steam. It depends what happens in

the May elections. If the Liberal Democrats do not do better than we

have done in the last three, there will be very strong pressure from

the inside. You both agree. Television history has been made.

You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be

looking at the Hello, I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up in

the North West: Putting themselves in the shop window for Westminster.

Who's going to be this region's newest MP? It's a little unusual

this week. We have four of the candidates hoping to succeed Paul

Goggins as the MP for Wythenshawe and Sale East. They're here to press

their case. For the UK Independence Party, John Bickley, Mary Di Mauro

of the Liberal Democrats, the Conservatives' Reverend Daniel

Critchlow and, for Labour, Mike Kane. So, let's start by having a

look at what they're fighting for. If you were elected MP, John, what

would you most like to achieve? I want to prioritise jobs, social

housing and services for British citizens. Mary training, jobs,

education, apprenticeships. I want to set up a new youth problem for

the people of Wythenshawe, sort out the little `` litter problem and the

pothole problems. I'm incredibly proud to be selected to my seat and

Paul Goggins was a great public servant and we felt great warmth

with him. I am passionate about being in politics with people,

sorting out the accident and emergency pressures, the cost of

living prices `` crisis, and finally the unfair Council cuts we face in

Manchester and Trafford. We will pick up on those issues, but let's

have a look what they are fighting for. Wythenshawe and Sale East was

formed in 1997 when most of the former Manchester Wythenshawe

constituency was combined with parts Sale. There are two contrasting

areas, the post`war council estate, once the largest in Europe, and the

more affluent Sale. Paul Goggins, who died last month, won the seat of

the seat for Labour four times with the Conservatives finishing second

on each occasion. In 2010 in his majority slipped to 18.5% and

bookmakers reckon it could be UKIP pushing hardest this time around.

William Hill says Labour are hot favourites but rates Nigel Farage's

party at 10/1. The Conservatives are 150/1.

But while the bookies aren't always right. Our reporter Stuart Pollitt

usually is. So we've asked him to find out what the voters want.

It was the constituency where hoodies offered more than a hug to

David Cameron and was branded Broken Britain when royalty arrived on its

estates. I noticed bad language This constituency is made up of

contrasting areas, this is middle`class Sale, all canals and

cappuccino. Part of Tory controlled Trafford Council, and this is the

more traditional working`class area of Wythenshawe with its large

post`war housing estate car `` housing estates. Part of the

Labour`controlled council. I will be with you until 12pm. Those who

volunteer at the community radio station have different ideas about

the main issues facing the area Fuel poverty, food poverty, the

churches in the area are actually distributing food to people in

need. Do you think many of your friends will vote in the election?

No, I wouldn't have done until now, but it has hit me and my age group.

A lot of people think that because this is a social housing estate it

is a rough estate. There is nothing wrong about Wythenshawe. It's a

very, very nice place to live and work. If you have the chance to

work, that is. At this jam factory they are offering the people to

work, but struggling to fill the posts. Your family has a long

history in this area. We have been making jam in Manchester since 881

and have been on this site and Wythenshawe for over 20 years. More

than 200 people are employed here but they are looking for more. It's

the lack of the right people. Everything you read and hear, you

think there would be queues of people round the block, which isn't

really the case. It is finding the right people to work in the food

factory. Wythenshawe's position was one reason Duerr's relocated and

there could be more jobs available with the expansion of nearby

Manchester Airport. The extension of the metrolink to the Airport should

also help. But will the election of a new MP make a difference here

Mike, what has gone so wrong that the local jam factory can't find

enough decent workers? I think the key issue in the constituency is

there is a lot of economic inactivity. There are nearly 50 0

people currently looking for work. 1000 of those under the age of 4

and it will be massively important for the next MP to champion the

cause of those young people about getting access to local employment.

What is stopping them working at jam factory? Within a five mile radius

of this there are 5000 apprenticeships, and I would make

sure that those people are accessing jobs in the area. You're not

concerned that people don't have the necessary skills and training to

take those jobs now? I think getting on the ladder of employment is hard

to everybody, particularly young people and I would champion the

cause of the under 24. 1000 people under the age of 24 unemployed. This

is reflected nationally since the coalition government came in. But if

these people were educated and trained under a Labour government,

then they have been let down? Identix at all. You don't think

they've been let down even though they can't even work there? Mac `` I

don't think so at all. The primary schools have been rebuilt, and the

results of GCSEs have achieved the national average so it's about

helping the young people to get that first step onto the ladder. John,

you have a lot of complaints. Haven't got answers? I certainly

have. It is hypocritical of labour to have a go at the working class

today. You have actually betrayed the working class. During labour's

timing government you deliberately allowed hundreds of thousands of

immigrants into the country and they were desperate to work, and guess

who's jobs they took, working`class people. They depressed wages and

employers could replace British people with immigrants and people on

benefits have even less of an incentive to get off benefits and

into work. On the other hand it could do with some immigrants

because it can't find people to do the jobs. We need to get British

citizens educated. I remember Mr Blair talking about education,

education, education, well, you fail. The Labour government had

political blood on their hands. What would you do to solve the problem

that businessman? We would look for a way to educate British citizens to

be job ready for those jobs. We have already announced me want to

introduce in Manchester... Everybody agrees there should be better

education, but that is a bit vague. Anything specific? I was brought up

on the Wythenshawe council estate, and when you are 16 you assumed you

would get a job because you had a decent education. Even though I

didn't go to the local grammar school, which the Labour Party

closed, and it was one of the best grammar schools in the north`west of

England. Thousands of working`class kids had a chance to get out of the

Wythenshawe council estate in get better jobs. Daniel, the government

doesn't seem to have done much here either. David Cameron came up with

this idea of the broken society whether you agree with that or not,

he did illustrate that in Wythenshawe itself. Have things got

better for the people there? I'm don't think so. When looking at the

issue of education. `` identity so. This government has given ?16.7

million on the people premium to help disadvantaged young people

They've given over ?40 million to help students who could not find

places at school in the previous government. I'd like to mention in

a positive vein, I was at Wythenshawe campus, which is part of

Manchester College, a few days ago. They are providing vocational

courses to help such businesses as the jam factory. So why isn't it

working? I think it is. Well it isn't, because the man told us he

cannot recruit. When I spoke to the principle `` the principle of the

school where, they have courses ready for people to come in. The

main problem in Wythenshawe is there is no belief in our young people. I

believe in the young people of Wythenshawe and I say there is

opportunity for them and there is hope for them, it is about

instilling that hope. Mary, your party is part of the Coalition

Government. Do you accept you've let people down? I'm glad the people

premium has been mentioned because that was a great Liberal Democrat

idea that brought millions of pounds into Wythenshawe's schools. As a mum

of two teenage boys I don't think there is a lack of ambition for

young people in Wythenshawe at all. The problem at the moment is not

just with the young people, the problem is that over years and years

of Labour government neglect we have a situation where 40% of the adults

on jobseeker's allowance have no qualifications at all, but 50% of

the jobs require some qualifications, five juice `` GCSEs.

So how is your government done enough to address that? The Liberal

Democrats in government are putting money into schools to the people

premium and providing free school meals for young children, and at the

same time they are investing millions of pounds in airport city

Enterprises. And you are satisfied that enough? It's the right way

forward and good news for Wythenshawe and I'm positive about

the young people. Is it enough? But is it enough,

the table show the UK slipping down the national education leagues,

we're not in the top 20 for reading, maths and science, which is pathetic

when we were a world leading trading nation and had one of the best

education systems in the world. Your government have destroyed the

education system. You closed a grammar school on a council estate,

that is unacceptable. Can wait allow Mike to respond? As somebody raised

on the estate and who came from Wythenshawe, I'm proud of the

education, and I'm Chief Executive of the company at the moment. It's a

labour fronted body, isn't it? I want more people to have the jobs

they aspire to and I think we should set the higher standards for our

young people. Let's pause for a moment because that is what is on

offer are the main parties in this by`election, but what about the

other candidates? Rather than not voting, which will be half the

electorate will not do, you might as well waste your vote by supporting a

radical left`wing party instead They say they want an end to mass

immigration, they want British jobs for British workers. They want to

see a ban on the Burka. One fellow told me, it is a no`brainer. The

largest group is the people who don't vote, so those are the people

who I am campaigning for, the people who don't vote. Maybe that

enthusiasm will bring people to the ballot boxes. Is there a suggestion

that the Conservatives have not tried in this by`election? I

wouldn't agree with that. I want to be the best candidate for

Wythenshawe and Sale East and I m going for it falls. It's the poor ``

people to decide. It seems like your priorities are later and potholes.

You not running the local council? `` later. The MP must be involved in

every aspect, and if you get the small things right, you will get the

big things right. In the general election in 2015, let's get the

small things right, and if not, kick me out. Mary, there has been a

complete lack of support from the national party for you. I'm actually

delighted with the support I have had. I've had some support from the

neighbouring MPs. It's been absolutely fantastic, so I'm

delighted with the support. Glad you are satisfied with it. Whoever wins

the by`election, the NHS will be an important issue. This week one

report has raised concerns about funding and there's been a Commons

debate over the pressures facing accident and emergency departments.

And Wythenshawe hospital's among those that's had a difficult winter,

as Chris Rider reports. Does he agree with me that the right way to

go to invest in this? That is why they are ending up in hospital

because they don't get the carer at home. Performance has actually

improved since the general election. MPs clashed in the Commons this week

over pressures on accident and emergency departments. Under study

by the Nuffield showed hospitals struggle to provide good quality

care `` and a study. It's clear many of the region's hospitals, including

Wythenshawe, are under pressure particularly at weekends. Many

people turning up at ANA should be treated elsewhere. The arguments

over the future of the NHS will be a topic of discussion in the

forthcoming by`election. Across the city, volunteers at HealthWatch

Manchester point people to the right service. The people we are hearing

about is people who have had community care cut and are pretty

desperate, really, and they go there as a last resort. Usually people

with long`term conditions like alcoholism. The latest figures show

that Wythenshawe has missed waiting time targets in ten of the last 12

weeks and that 978 patients have had to wait longer than half an hour in

the back of an ambulance. In addition, 85 operations were

cancelled. The hospital admits it has faced serious challenges with

patients coming from Stockport, South Manchester and parts of

Cheshire. In a statement it says: at this GP practice in Whalley range

in Manchester there are plans to ease the pressure on local

hospitals. We are about to launch publicity and awareness programme

where we will try to educate the public about what is appropriate to

take to the accident and emergency department, and what is more

appropriate bring to the GP. But the battle about how the government

plays its part in making things better will rumble on into the next

election. John, how much of an issue is it and what would you do? It s a

big issue. I'm sorry to say, Mr Kane, the Labour Party are a

disaster when it comes to managing the NHS. What would you do John

Please don't interrupt me when I'm trying to make a point. You have

been silent on the issue. Will you let me make my point? The Public

Accounts Committee said you took out a PFI contract that was one of the

worst ever done by the Labour Party. The developers put down 6

million, Private Equity people, you know, the people you don't like

They borrowed a PFI contract that was one of the worst ever done by

the Labour Party. The developers put down ?6 million, Private Equity

people, you know, the people you don't like. They borrowed ?175

million and the Labour government would allow the private equity fund

is to receive ?900 million in fees and interest payments over 35 years.

Do you have a solution? Yes, whatever budget is available for the

NHS, it goes to front`line clinicians and services, not

managers who get a ?300,000 payoff and then walked back into the NHS on

another hundred thousand pound contract, or demand your government.

Do you accept that? This has happened on the coalition watch

Know it has not. You did the contract. We had a thousand people

queueing in Wythenshawe for an ambulance. What is happening on this

Tory led coalition, propped up by the Liberal Democrats is an absolute

disgrace. We have had 700 people waiting on trolleys for more than

four hours. That's a disgrace. Your clip just said we had 85 operations

cancelled. We predicted this. When they closed the walk`in centre and

downgraded the Trafford General accident and emergency, the

first`ever NHS hospital, we predicted they would not be able to

cope with demand. Overnight, those ambulances queueing down the road

doubled. You put the blame on the government, but is it your fault? I

would say the doctors and nurses are doing a wonderful job Wythenshawe

Hospital. We know that, but are you? By removing the facilities at

Trafford hospital more lives will be saved. If that's what he says, I'm

willing to take his word. You reject all the criticisms? I agree my work

needs to be done. The target we are set is 95% of people being seen

below four hours and at the moment it is 92. Do you think the work

should be done? Myself and my family had the best care for Wythenshawe

Hospital. But there is an elephant in the room, and the one that the

Labour Party don't want to talk about is that nationally, in the

NHS, they took on ?63 billion worth of debt of loans just for the NHS

hospitals. ?11 billion of that was the real cost and 52 billion was on

the lease. This is nothing to do with the closing of Trafford

hospital accident and emergency Not only will we be paying this off it

is 16 times what it should be. Our children will be paying off this

debt and it's a disgrace. It's interesting that you two gentlemen

have clashed so much because you are fighting over the same voters. You

are trying to take the Labour vote. We are not having to try very hard,

they are coming over because they have been betrayed by the Labour

Party. One in ?10 at the budget in Wythenshawe is paying off the

interest rate on your PFI contract. That is money that won't quicken up

the ambulances. You blew it. You could have been silent on this

issue. Doctors and nurses, some of them from overseas, under their

policies they would not be here treating at Wythenshawe. How would

that add to the pressures? We will have to leave that hanging. Time for

the rest of the week's news now Here's Gill Dummigan with 60

Seconds. Morecambe MP David Morris tabled a

commons motion asking what happened to the three people jailed for their

part in the cockle picking disaster ten years ago. It's thought they

were deported three years ago. Liverpool City Council announced 300

job losses but also won a High Court challenge against an EU funding cut.

The government now has to reconsider.

Anti`fracking protestors say they'll try to disrupt two proposed new test

drilling sites near Blackpool. Energy company Cuadrilla is seeking

planning permission in Rozzaker Wood and Little Plumpton.

The Environment Agency has pledged ?74 million to try to prevent

flooding in the North West. Areas due to benefit benefit include

Warrington, Northwich, Croston and Ulverston.

And Blackpool Council spent the week debating whether to ban people

boozing between three and six in the morning. Every weekend is a

nightmare. The licensing committee will make a

decision by March. One of you will almost certainly be

the next MP, and you have to make big judgements in Parliament. What

is the issue that you feel so passionately about that you would be

willing to rebel and challenge your own party over? Mike? If elected on

Thursday, the accident and emergency crisis at Wythenshawe is the most

important. I want to champion the people's causes, particularly over

the hospital, not selling the Westminster messengers back. Not

certainly would have to challenge Ed Miliband on that. The economy is

improving and I want to make sure that the people in Wythenshawe feel

it in their pocket. We have heard those. Mary? We have a lot of

investment in local economy and it has to be a fair society and I want

people to have qualifications and to access jobs locally. John, can you

answer my question? I would have to be disciplining myself, but the

truth of the matter is, the existing parties have let down the British

people and can no longer be trusted. Their policies are no

longer credible. An interesting debate. Thank you for coming. And

you can hear the latest this week on BBC Radio Manchester. And North West

Tonight will have the results for you on BBC One throughout Friday.

And we'll hopefully be joined by the winner next Sunday. For now, I'll

hand you back to Andrew Neil in London.

Londoners who otherwise may not have a voice. Both of you, thank you so

much. Andrew, it is back to you Can David Cameron get a grip on the

floods? Can UKIP push the Conservatives into third place in

the Wythenshawe by-election on Thursday? Is the speaker in the

House of Commons in danger of overheating? All questions over the

weekend. Let's look at the politics of the flooding. Let me show you a

clip from Eric Pickles, the Communities Secretary, earlier on

the BBC this morning. We perhaps relied too much on the Environment

Agency's advice. I apologise. I apologise unreservedly and I am

really sorry we took the advice of what we thought we were doing was

the best. The Environment Agency is being hung out to dry by the

Government and the Government has taken over the running of the

environmental mess in the Somerset Levels. It is turning into a serious

crisis by the Government and even more so for the people who are

dealing with the flooding. There is no doubt that what has been revealed

is it is not just about what the Government did or did not do six

months ago. What is being exposed is an entire culture within the

Environment Agency, fuelled often by European directives about dredging

and all manner of other things, a culture grew up in which plants were

put ahead of people if you like All of that is collapsing in very

difficult circumstances by the Government and it is difficult for

them to manage. Chris Smith would save the Environment Agency is

acting under a law set by this Government and previous governments

and the first priority is the protection of life, second property

and third agricultural land and he is saying we are working within that

framework. It is an edifying spectacle, they are setting up Lord

Smith to be the fall guy. His term of office comes at the end of the

summer and they will find something new. But the point Lord Smith is

making is that dredging is important and it was a mistake not to dredge,

but it is a bigger picture than that. I am no expert, but you need a

whole skill solution that is looking not just bad dredging, but at the

whole catchment area looking at the production of maize. It is harvested

in autumn and then the water runs off the topsoil. You see the

pictures of the flooding, it is all topsoil flooding through those

towns. What you have got to have in the uplands is some land that can

absorb that water and there are really big questions about the way

we carry out farming. Chris Smith was meant to appear on the Andrew

Marr show this morning, but pulled back at the last minute. There must

be doubts as to whether he can survive to the summer. Where is the

chief executive of the Environment Agency? I agree with Nick that Chris

Smith has been setup in this situation. David Cameron went to the

Somerset Levels on Friday for about half an hour, in and out, with no

angry people shouting at him. You to a farm. It is agreed he has had good

crisis. But we are seen as being a London media class who does not

understand the countryside. You can imagine David Cameron in a pair of

wellies. If this was happening in Guildford, it would not have dragged

on for so long. Looe it is interesting how they are saying the

Environment Agency has put words in front of everything else. The

great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria thinks people should be

sacked at the whim. He is talking about how the Environment Agency

spent ?31 million on a bird sanctuary. It turns out the bird

sanctuary was an attempt to put up a flood defence system for a village

which has worked. That village has been saved. They compensated some

farmers for the farmland they were not going to be able to farm and put

a flood defence system further back to protect this village and then

they built a bird sanctuary. It was not ?31 million to create a bird

sanctuary, it was to save a village and it worked. But in 2008 the

Environment Agency was talking about dynamiting every pumping agency

There was a metropolitan mindset on the part of that agency. If it does

what Owen Paterson, who is now off in an eye operation, suggested a

plan to fix this, they will find a lot of what they want or need to do

will be in contravention of European directives. The Wythenshawe

by-election. There is no question Labour is going to win, probably

incredibly convincingly, one poll showing 60% plus of the vote. It

would be surprising if Labour was in any threat up there. The issue is,

does UKIP beat the Tories and if so, by how much? The latest poll was

showing it in second place as nip and tuck, but the feeling I have is

UKIP will do better. And they have got a great local candidate. The

Tories have not parachuted somebody in and they have got a local man in

and that will help them. We have all been waiting to see if the Tories

lose their head, but they might go chicken earlier than that. Will UKIP

come second? It looks like that A poll this week showed that Labour is

way ahead and UKIP possibly second. But it is an important by-election

for UKIP. If they do well in the European elections, they should

still be on a roll. They did really well in by-elections last year. If

they do not do well, is it because they are not on payroll? Or in

Manchester they have a fantastic leader of the council? Will UKIP

come a good second? I think they will and if they do not, it might

suggest Nigel Farage is losing its slightly. One thing to look out for

is how little Labour are attacking UKIP. Their election strategy relies

a lot on UKIP taking Tory votes But it could also take Labour votes

Particularly in the north and we shall see. The results will be out

on Thursday night. The Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bird ,

his interventions have become more frequent and something was strange.

Have a look. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman. Order, the

Government Chief Whip has absolutely no business whatsoever shouting from

a sedentary position. Order, the honourable gentleman will remain in

the chamber. If we could tackle this problem. I say to the honourable

member for Bridgwater, be quiet if you cannot be quiet, get out, it is

rude, stupid and pompous and it needs to stop. Michael Gove. Order.

You really... Order. You are a very over excitable individual. You need

to write out 1000 times, I will behave myself at Prime Minister 's

questions. He was talking to the Education Secretary and it is not

1000 lines, it is 100 lines, at least it was in my day. Is he

beginning to make a fool of himself? There was only one over excitable

person there and that was the speaker and he is losing the

confidence of the Conservative MPs, but he never had that in the first

place. But he is an incredibly reforming speaker. He has this

strange idea that Parliament should hold the Government to account. It

will never catch on. It means very frequently there are urgent

questions. The other day he called a backbench amendment on the

deportation of foreign criminals. He could have found a way not to call

that. He is a real reformer and the executive do not like that. That is

true and he has allowed Parliament to flourish which has given us room

to breathe at a time of a coalition Government when Parliament has more

power. That is all that enough to overcome these increasingly mannered

and some of them may be preplanned interventions? The last one was last

week, and last week the speaker had a rather stressful week with the

tabloids. Something is clearly up. I think it is a real shame. I think

many of us when he was elected did not think he would make a great

speaker and there are people like Douglas Carswell and Tory rebels who

have said he is a fantastic speaker. He has given the Commons room to

breathe and he has called on ministers to be held to account when

they do not want to be. What do you think? He is seen as anti-government

and he is pro-backbencher and that is what people do not like. People

like Douglas Carswell are actually very strongly in support of him We

carry the interventions every week on Prime Minister 's questions and

we see them every week and they are getting a bit more eccentric. If I

was having to keep that under control, I would be driven slowly

mad. But his job is easier than mine. But if you look at his

deputy, Eleanor Laing, she is very robust, but she is calm. Chap who

does the budget is excellent. We are on throughout the week at midday on

BBC Two. We will be back next Sunday at 11. If it is Sunday, it is the

Sunday Politics.