30/03/2014 Sunday Politics North West

Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

Can Ed Politics.

the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the

Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better

Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish

Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?

They could be heading for Hello, I'm Arif Ansari ` coling up

in the North West. My kingdom for a horse 500 xears

after the War of the Roses, why one In London, changes to the authority

which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political

move designed to silence his critics.

And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the

business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis.

But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest

and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis,

Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been

unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the

rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister

spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the

Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence

campaign rushed to limit the damage. delighted and the anti-independence

The faux pas has come at delighted and the anti-independence

beginning to worry that things were going the Nationalists' way. Let's

speak to a leading light in that campaign, Scottish Secretary

Alistair Carmichael, who's in Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal

Democrat spring conference. Alistair Carmichael, why is there a

sense of crisis now engulfing the no campaign? I think that is something

of an overstatement. What you have got is, I am getting my own voice

played back in my ear. What you have got here is one story from an

unnamed source, a minister who we are told, we do not know for

certain, who has speculated on the possibility of a currency union

actually happening. I do not think that is helpful but it is not any

big deal. You have to measure it against what we have got publicly

named on the record. We have got a detailed intervention of the

Governor of the Bank of England Mark Carney, outlining all the

reasons why a currency union would not be a good idea. And then you

have got independent advice from the permanent Secretary of the Treasury

himself saying actually, this is such a bad idea, that I would never

advise a chancellor to go ahead with it. You set one against the other

and you see that pretty much the force of

and you see that pretty much the against those of us who want to

remain in the United Kingdom. All the

remain in the United Kingdom. All day, if Westminster is negotiating

with a new independent Scotland a deal is to be done, Faslane where

the nuclear deterrent is, there is nowhere else in the UK to put that

is, certainly not for the next 0 years, a deal would be done, the

nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a

monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible

isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is

more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear

advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic

best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland any

more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put

the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes

when the Nationalists kick you out? I do not believe that will be a

problem because I do not believe Scotland will vote for independence.

But you might be asking the Scottish Nationalists, who are apparently

promoting this, are they then not sincere when they say they want to

remove nuclear weapons from Scotland? It seems to be a curious

mixed message. As you know, I have not got the Nationalists, I have got

you, so let me ask you the questions. You are widely seen as

you, so let me ask you the running a campaign which is too

negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found

you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,

isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the

people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes

there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing

a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which

actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come

September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to

say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of

the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll

said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the

don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you

yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act

together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No,

to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists

could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the

United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the

polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence,

they think this will lead consistently. As a consequence,

can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least

because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the

amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will

be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social

media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we

have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as

theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave

you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think

they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the

agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if

there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold

of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds,

when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there

was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is

still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after

the 18th of September this year not just the next day but the next

year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place,

when there would be a lot of moving negotiations that would take place,

places on the table. negotiations that would take place,

then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts

about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising

that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow

Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary

union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in

a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear

submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them,

probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think

whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If

the Scots vote for independence of course a deal will be done about the

currency because it is not in London's interests to have a

rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not

done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is

different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on

the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without

any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if

the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except

it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go

down that route there is no means of down that route there is no means of

financial system in the financial crisis. That is

financial system in the financial rather have a monetary union. Is it

not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the

Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign

which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the

resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists

having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in

the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that

he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a

bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The

polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going

their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the

gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The

plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better

Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they

get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London

Police say, give us a couple of million.

Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when

North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey

has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have

energy companies account for 95 of energy companies account for 95 of

the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit

coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation

by the competition and markets authorities which will look at

whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave

investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not

spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home

might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the

generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's

night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016

according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to

2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of

candles. Now where is that light switch?

Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light

switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating

capacity could possibly reach 2 next winter or the winter after We

will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy

investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal

with the energy deficit. From day one we have

with the energy deficit. From day massively. Investment has been

billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now

heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have

been increasing investment massively, last was a record level,

we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are

showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done

enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate

huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline

investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute.

None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter

or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down,

or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply.

It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing

anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are

able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are

connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we

get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on.

You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last

July. But no that. The decision was taken last

under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our

plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it

would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply

who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our

plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to

come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of

power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest.

There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we

are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term.

We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction

for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned

lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries

so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I

am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000

megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost

22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so

22,000 megawatts. Why would you be figures are happening because we've

known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of

their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to

increase the rate of investment but we... That shows clearly you are

closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you

have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are

coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased

the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under

the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the

beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are

historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a

huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins

between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is

costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People

have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a

short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a

long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between

nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between

on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has

increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the

report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been

working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we

have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on

if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but

demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to

off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,

and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the

Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks

for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around

for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to

expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into

haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,

dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at

the increase of the independent generators, many companies,

of power companies who are building a new power station and want to

build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100

billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore

capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the

Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to

expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We

have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is

happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say

it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we

have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at

independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to

invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore

wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only

countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker

picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an

investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.

Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,

only one started under your watch for the others were done under

Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled

back from further investment including new offshore wind

investment and none of what you re talking about will come before 020

anyway. That's simply not true. talking about will come before 020

balance reserves I've talked about, the reserve planned: Making sure the

mothballed plant could come on, I capacity market incentivising new

power, will happen way before 2 20, so that's not true. But doesn't

answer the extra capacity. You have no answer between now and the end of

this decade. We have three answers. Let me repeat them for you. I said

permanent, not the short-term ones you are putting in place to try to

do with spare capacity. We have a short-term plan, of course, that's

very sensible. Medium-term plan auctioning for new power stations.

That can lead to both mothballed plant and when you plant, permanent

plant being built, and the long term plan, to stimulator long-term

investment, some of which will be built and come online way before the

end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's a far rosier picture than your

painting. It's also far more expensive, too. Let's look at how

you are replacing relatively cheap energy with much more expensive

sources of energy. Wholesale prices is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a

deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You have indexed it for 30 years at 2012

prices. All of that puts up our bills. First

of all, the support of the low Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has

been driving peoples bills over the last decade has been wholesale gas

prices. No one knows what guys prices are going to be in the future

-- gas prices. When you look at the Ukraine and other market indicators,

many people are worried that by the time nuclear power stations come

online for example, the price of gas could be significantly higher. You

have indexed linked that for them by the time you get any power from

this, it'll be up to ?125 per megawatt hour. The price of gas been

going up far higher. Not recently. Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not

recently. The long-term forecast, Andrew, it's going to go higher but

more importantly than that, this is an area we could disagree on but

it's very important that power plants pay the cost of pollution. In

those prizes, all of those prices except the wholesale out a steep

price, you have those power stations paying the cost of air pollution. If

gas and coal where paying the proper carbon price, you would see nuclear

and renewables as competitive. It's very important that we ensure that

power plants pay the cost of the pollution. When you were last on

this programme to talk about this in May 2012, you said that the price of

offshore wind was coming down fast. You told me it would be down by 30%

offshore wind was coming down fast. is 155, and for the deeper stuff,

offshore wind was coming down fast. it's going to be ?165. That's the

first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.

If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their

partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about

lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than

the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are

targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that

that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say

that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few

years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a

single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That s

what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in

technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in

mobile phones to start off with they were expensive, and they were

clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put

the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on

investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will

guarantee them with EDF, nuclear power, which will

every year for 30 with EDF, nuclear power, which will

that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two

separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply

retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale

side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are

comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to

do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,

there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we

haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever

happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the

verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going

nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press

officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains

some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had

a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats

in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest

party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite

concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote

increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as

anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and

forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat.

forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty that, in the years since, that

retreat has that, in the years since, that

electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote.

For a number of years they were performing better than the UK

Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect.

The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other

groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't

go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party

was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have

known that at the outset. In 20 6 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won

12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour

council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing

concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different

nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over

everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I

would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here

When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a

second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find

non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even

though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white

working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent

working-class population concerned what happened to that about? On

behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten,

that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local

Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we

could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the

council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration.

But what beat the BNP here in 2 10 was a mobilisation of the Labour

vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the

same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years

ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing

around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and

stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now

it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true.

If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not

in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush.

I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say

in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist

but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of

UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the

party issued a MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the

programme saying BNP failure is MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the

closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose

amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were

thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his

appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP

something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.

This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John

Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He

went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some

voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here

has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins

me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you

had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on

the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is

very negative as I would expect The party has faced a few problems. The

main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the

main thing to bear in mind is that faces have gone away. We won nearly

a million votes in the European elections. We brought that mandate

to the establishment and we were denied. Let's face it, we would --

were denied any opportunity to take place in the political apparatus.

You have been destroyed by a pincer movement. UKIP has taken away or

more respectable voters and the EDL is better at anti-Muslim protests

and street thuggery. The EDL is not a political party. I take your point

about UKIP. The power structure took a look at us and so we were a threat

to power. We were not making this stuff up, we meant it and they have

co-opted our message. This shameless promotion of UKIP, you have evenly

had him presenting the weather on this programme. That is

unbelievable. That was a joke. Across Europe, in France, your

sister party the National front will probably do very well. You can see

the rise of the far right across Western Europe so why are you in

decline? We are not far right, I reject that label. How would you

describe yourselves nationalists and Patriots. Why are you in decline and

other similar parties to yours are on the rise? You mentioned Barking

and it is very interesting because I was involved in that campaign. What

Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party did, they replaced the white

indigenous population in Barking and Dagenham with Africans, that is how

they won that election. For that was true, you would be doing well

elsewhere. You have now got a leader who is declared bankrupt and your

party is heading for bankruptcy No, it is not. It is over. You would

like that. What I would like is irrelevant. Your membership is in

deep decline. All parties have highs and lows. In 2009 they said it is no

way you will win any seats in the European election. We did. And then

you lost them. Parties win and lose seats. The Lib Dems will be

annihilated. You deny you are far right. People used to say the BNP

were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin appeared with Golden Dawn. They are

not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is part and parcel of being in

politics. You have to them? Of course we do, we have to

speak to ordinary people. I am perfectly happy speaking to you at

the BBC, the BBC have a terrible reputation but I am happy to be

here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when will the BBC apologised for trying

to put him in prison twice, merely for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why

can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and self? He would not appear. He was in

Syria. He literally flew out to Damascus and prevented a war. We

decided we would not interfere in Syria. The BBC never covered that.

Please do not make out we are just an ordinary political party you

cover like everybody else. It is completely different. All the signs

are, membership, performance at the polls, performance at elections the

problem with your leadership is you are now going the way of the

National front, heading for oblivion. As I said to you before,

that may be the case, if all the problems we had not highlighted and

how we got a huge vote so many years ago, six years ago now, five years

ago, in 2009, if they were not around. These things are only going

to get worse. We are looking at a prototype Islamic republic that is

going to be set up in this country. That will

Only the British National Party are prepared

Only the British National Party are it. Word leaked out that I was doing

this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how

irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New

Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would

turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they

put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of

bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.

You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in

Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in

Hello, I'm Arif Ansari. My kingdom for a horse. Coming up in the North

West ` 500 years after the War of the Roses, why one town's still at

the centre of a York`Lancaster feud. We'll be looking at the annhversary

of the 1974 boundary changes that left some of our towns feelhng a

little lost. But ready for battle in the studio this week, the L`bour MP

for Liverpool Riverside, Lotise Ellman. And John Pugh, the Liberal

Democrat MP for Southport. Do these boundary changes still

resonate? They were partly based on economic geography, and that is

sensible, but also a bit of gerrymandering. There has bden a

strong movement to take Southport away in the past. You have

experience of two tier authorities because you were a leader of

Lancaster county council. Which works better? I think both can work

and it depends on the naturd of the area. In Lancashire, the cotnty has

worked very well indeed and has even helped to set up a National Fire and

rescue service for internathonal disasters, so that worked vdry well.

In Liverpool, the Liverpool county council has done well and also the

Metropolitan setup. More on that later, but first, it's

been another damaging week for one of the region's biggest brands, The

Co`Op, with the discovery of a 400 million black hole in the fhnances

of the group's bank and an `dmission of sin from its disgraced former

chairman, the reverend Paul Flowers. How has it come to this?

The group was formed more than 50 years ago when the Rochdale Pioneers

decided it would be cheaper to buy things together. The organisation

has 7 million members, 4800 shops and 90,000 staff. Among its staff ``

services, a bank, pharmacy, but the problems began

when it merged with the Britannia building society. An attempt to buy

it revealed a ?1.5 billion black hole and then last year Paul Flowers

resigned after being filmed buying class a drugs. The bank also had to

accept private investment for the first time.

So what's the future for thd Co`Op and organisations like it, that are

run by and for their members? Here's Euan Doak.

Building a new future at a new stadium. When some fans broke away

from Manchester United after the Glazer family takeover, thex wanted

their new club to be as far away from that form of ownership as

possible. There are lots of models of football clubs and what was

important to us was making sure about supporters was at the heart of

everything we did. Supporters have to have a greater say in how things

are done and we believe this gives them that opportunity. But that idea

of a club, being owned by its members, mirrors a business model

that has floundered recentlx at the Co`Op. The Co`Op bank was albitious

and became very big very quhckly. Its former Chairman Paul Flowers

says that was something encouraged by the government. There was

pressure but I believe and know it originated higher up with the

Chancellor himself. Shortly after they open their new headquarters,

more problems emerged and P`ul Flowers became the poster boy for

everything that went wrong. The chief executive resigned saxing it

was unworkable but does this mean this is the end of the coopdrative

model? The complex nature of the Co`Op's structure meant the board

struggled to keep up with the ambitions of the executive. It is

always very difficult to hold the executive to account. The

co`operative group was blessed with this unusual structure. Thex had

some professional managers but it also had things like a Methodist

minister, a plasterer, a herbalist, lecturers and tutors. This week the

Co`Op ended a public consultation. And as the group debates its future

direction, other Cooperativds are having more success. Meanwhhle other

cooperatives are proving successful. One thing they do well is to have a

simple business and democratic model. One member, one vote. No

complicated committees and ht is very accessible. A clear vision and

clear goals means the co`opdrative model can bear fruit. Something they

need to hang on to as they continue to grow.

What has gone wrong? Cooper`tives are very successful right across the

country and thousands work on them very successfully indeed. What has

happened to the Co`op bank hs sad but it is challenging. They led the

way on ethical banking but the current crisis is something that has

to be resolved. management to account and that is

why the various studies takhng place now have two sure how the Co`op s

ethos of mutuality has been combined with problem business acumen with

that democratic structure f`iling to bring them to account. Do you agree

with Paul Flowers that therd are questions for George Osbornd on

whether or not the government put them under pressure to go for that

financial deal which ultimately did not work out? The Treasury select

committee is currently lookhng at that issue and they will be

following up points made in the allegations, so that is somdthing

pursue. The minister has sahd the Treasury Minister only had

discussions long after the court decided to go down that road. I am

disappointed, I am a loyal supporter and I have my Co`op card here, and I

follow a model of complete probity. Had we known that a former Labour

councillor was no banking experience was running the show, we wotld have

been much more concerned, not to say they are not many decent and able

people working at the Co`op. The atmosphere was too cosy. Thdy are

reviewing their structure and have to find a way of combining hts ethos

and structure was running a business properly. That has happened

effectively for many years `nd it has to be put right. Do you think it

can be put right? It is dam`ging and it has to be put right. It has a

protest at the end has to h`ve a proud future. The has to have a

proud future. The Hess delax will stand them strong and many people

have an allegiance that goes back generations. You are Labour

co`operative MP but that br`nd has been somewhat tarnished? Wh`t has

happened at the Co`op bank has put question marks over how it was

managed and held to account. But Paul Flowers was not just that the

bank? Those are things that Paul Flowers has two answer but the

co`operative group are lookhng again at the structures and how they

operate and have to get it right. 40 years ago this week, loc`l

government was dramatically remodelled and the maps redrawn A

new two`tier council system was created and not without controversy.

Furnace for example finding itself in the new shire county of Cumbria.

Merseyside County Council and Greater Manchester County Council

were born, only to be abolished by the Thatcher government. But now

with a new Merseyside combined authority, are we turning ftll

circle? Elaine Dunkley reports. Saddleworth, known for its dramatic

moors and mills, but it's a place where boundary lines and political

battle lines are drawn. Bec`use this district known as Saddleworth is on

the western side of the Pennines it becomes part of Greater Manchester,

a curious future body bunch of country villages and not ond most of

its inhabitants would vote for. He has the White Rose of Yorkshire

which is very important to lany people and Saddleworth. The local

Government Act of 1974 made the historic Yorkshire villages and

towns of Saddleworth part of a new Greater Manchester. The ide` was to

create larger than the effects of powers local labour and Saddleworth

that caused an identity crisis. There was a lot of bad feelhng and

people saying, they have taken us over. That is how many people felt.

Many people think that is a justifiable position to havd taken.

We feel old on gets the lions share of all the funding. The villagers

have some common characteristics. The changes made by the Conservative

government still leave some feeling a line has been crossed. Wh`t was

lost was the heritage and hhstoric connections that went with the

linkage to church and the of County Association. Ideally I

would like to see a constittency based on the South Pennines, alias

of similarity to Saddleworth. The Lancashire Yorkshire border is

no stranger to territorial, political battles. During the War of

the Roses, thousands lost their lives. Known as the winter of our

discontent... The Local Govdrnment Act of 1974 Act was less bloody but

local pride is still bruised. Over in Southport it's not horses but

trains causing concern. rail to the north and east. What is

important is four`hour tone to flourish and for unemployment to

good, we have to have better communications, and the impddiment

of the boundary. In 1986 thd mainly Labour`controlled councils of

Greater Manchester and Greater Merseyside were abolished under

Margret Thatcher. In 2011 the Greater Manchester Combined

Authority came into effect `nd from the 1st of April a super cotncil

consisting of Halton, Knowsley, Liverpool, St Helens Sefton and

Wirral will be formed in Merseyside to boost economic growth. Btt are

combined authorities working for a greater good? The opportunity that

the combined authority gave this is for local authorities to cole

together to create a structtre in which they can collaborate hn terms

of economic development and planning. I would also like to

accept some powers from nathonal governments. And here's an dxample

of bigger is better. The Grdater Manchester Waste Authority recycles

waste from nine boroughs, 40 years on from the creation of the North

West's Metropolitan County Councils. It deals with over 1 million tonnes

of rubbish. You get benefits of economies of scale so we ard able to

deal with things on a one off basis and everyone else can use that. We

believe we have the most sustainable scheme anywhere in Europe. 40 years

on from the creation of the north`west metropolitan county

councils, it is back to the future in the latest attempt to give local

government more authority. And we're also joined now bx Ron

Round, the leader of Knowsldy Council, one of the six that makes

up Merseyside's Combined Authority. Would Southport be better off as

part of Lincolnshire? It has economic and transport links with

both the Merseyside area, so we `re on

the edge and not well served by the current boundaries. We look to the

east and see East Lancs and we cannot understand why they `re not

part of the picture, left ott of the region, because what happens there

in the way all railways and roads is very important to Southport. It

benefits them to join you r`ther than you joining them? We h`ve no

desire to be a district inshde Lancashire. We like the degree of

autonomy we currently have, limited as it is in Sefton, and we do not

want to end up a district council. We want a coherent boundary and we

have not got that at the molent When you were reading though leading

the council, did you think `bout boundaries and places just outside

it? There are always issues with boundaries and Southport usdd to

approach Lancashire and say they wanted to join the county council.

Would they have been better off if they had? That is something for them

to decide. Is your view... @re you happy with the boundaries as they

are now in general, the fact you have a one tier system in

Merseyside? Setting up the combined authority is a very good development

and recognising the need for more regional involvement in cre`ting

more jobs and developing tr`nsport systems, and it is the Liverpool

city region, 35,000 people from within the city travel on to

Liverpool, so I think it will help everybody in that area to gdt more

jobs. The combined authoritx is certainly not the old countx council

but do you think it is a stdp back towards it? I do not and nothing

could be further from the truth The old county council had a different

set of executive powers. We will be operating as a combined authority in

a very different way to the old county council. I really want to

firmly nailed that to the m`st. It is about the council is abott the

councils working more stratdgically together and making joint ddcisions

better? That is absolutely true and we will do that but we will not be

saying we are some super cotncil or a county council mark two, ht is

nothing further from the trtth. This is a totally new concept and all the

leaders of the six districts that make up the Liverpool city region

have worked tirelessly to achieve this. What are the advantagds of it

because at the moment your councils want to cooperate can if thdy wish.

We can cooperate but not on a very strategic level because the

districts will still have the alone autonomy to deal with things inside

their own districts, but wh`t we need to do is focus on things that

benefit the Liverpool city region from a strategic point of vhew. Can

I take you back, if we had had a combined authority when the

ill`fated mirrors a tram was on the agenda, which I fully supported ``

Mersey tram. I worked my fingers to the board to try to achieve it, had

we had a combined authority, that Mersey tram would have been

successfully achieved because the six districts would have supported

it. Maybe you will be able to get that in place but let me ask you

something else. Councillor Round, the first job when you meet on

Tuesday is presumably going to involve the name? Let's havd

Helens, Sefton and Wirral combined authority.

That's hardly snappy, is it? I am getting sick and tired of hdaring

that comment. That was the Secretary of State who came up with that idea,

not the six districts who m`ke up the city region. The Liverpool city

region are firmly behind and unanimous that it will be c`lled the

Liverpool city region combined authority. I have to say th`t in a

very strong way because it has been reported daily in the Liverpool Echo

from professors of Liverpool University and other people that it

is this tongue twister that everybody is talking about. You can

take it from me, it will be called the Liverpool city region combined

authority. And who will be running it? That will be decided by

democratic process on Tuesd`y morning. That'll be the first item

the agenda, after the chief executive goes through some

housekeeping operations. Th`nk you very much indeed.

What do you think? Liverpool should be chairing it, that is the brand

name and they have all agredd the Liverpool city region as a name that

will be understood outside of the country. That is part of wh`t this

is about and it makes it much clearer. The city region will work

together and all are fully committed to this and that is the right way to

proceed now. Do you agree. The Manchester authority is led by

Wigan. It is ironic that thhs combined authority is supposed to

take powers from central government and is now left alone to choose its

own name! Is not a good start. The Manchester example is that they have

all rallied round and understood Manchester is the brand. Manchester

has shown what can be done `nd the great developments they havd had in

transport and business are not much to do with the authorities working

together. They have also recognised the necessity the centre dods not

dominate everything so Manchester does not throw its weight around. I

agree with that and they have to work together.

At least we have sorted the name out. Here's Ian Haslam with 60

Seconds. Conservative MP Mark Menzies has

resigned as a ministerial ahde He says the man paid him for sex and

asked him to buy an illegal drug and he says a number of the alldgations

are not true. The Halton MP Derek Twigg told

Parliament that some police officers on duty during the Hillsborough

disaster weren't co`operating with an IPCC investigation. The Prime

Minister said police chiefs have been told to make sure they do.

The cost of policing the anti`fracking protests at B`rton

Moss reached more than ?1.5 million. The Police and Crime Commissioner

Tony Lloyd has asked the Government for help to pay.

Cumbria's Police and Crime Commissioner described the prison

system as 'broken'. Richard Rhodes reckons huge reforms are nedded to

prevent a cycle of re`offending We all know that the vast majority of

people coming out of prison reoffend again. Meanwhile Cumbrian councils

and businesses are looking hnto the electrification of the Furndss

railway line. Very significant on Monday with the

new Hillsborough developments. The inquest is about to start, `

significant development, but we are still a long way from establishing

the truth of what happened on that day. You have confidence thdy will

come to the truth? I have confidence the truth will be exposed. People

are very determined to do that and the campaigners have brought us to

this point and now the judiciary and police are ready to find thd truth,

and they will do it. What are your hopes? Fresh evidence has come

forward which has enlightendd everyone and the country as a whole,

but they are still police pocket books which have not been h`nded

over. We will never get absolutely to the bottom of this. Unless they

are handed in, still possible? I am sure people know where they are but

some people may be unwilling to hand women. A big day for the falilies? A

very big day and shows all the efforts are starting to show

results. Still a long way to go but this is a significant development

and was one of the major delands. Thank you very much indeed. We had

you boundaries. Sorry, run out of time.

Thanks very much indeed. Andrew back to you.

Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP

finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin

with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London

about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs

back in 1993. That was enough to cause a panic. As if they are

falling from a great tit and I think the big difference with the National

front in France is that they are building on decades of successful

that they finished second in the presence of elections in 2002, I

think. And, presence of elections in 2002, I

were versions of presence of elections in 2002, I

they are building on a lot whereas the BNP are working with incredibly

few raw materials in this country. It is interesting that the BNP does

seem to be in decline in terms of its membership and financially, but

in France, the far right party, not as far right as the BNP, but pretty

far right, will probably do well in the second round of the French local

elections. You could say the same about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties

prosper when the picture is pre-rolled for them. If mainstream

parties talk endlessly about immigration, saying you cannot get a

council house because it has gone to an immigrant instead of saying it is

because there are not enough council houses, that creates the conditions

in which the far right can thrive. We are lucky that all the members of

the BNP fell out with each other. As extreme members of the far right and

left do. You can see that with the comedian in France, he has got a lot

of support from people on the left as well. I asked Simon Derby was

here victim of a pincer movement that UKIP were taken away voters and

EDL has captured the Street protest. Yes, and

EDL has captured the Street protest. act together. They got the act

together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge and Jon Cruddas did a very good job.

I think UKIP would say, not a racist party but they are picking up votes

from people who would once have voted BNP. But it is interesting the

difference between Britain and France. Why is it that the Front

Nationale came second in 2002 when they are not far right? I think they

were on a five-year cycle because the next election was 2007. 200

they came second when Jean-Marie Le Pen came second. They are not as far

right as the BNP. Marine has put them -- cleaned them up a bit.

Diplomatically there is a much harder vote which spreads further

across the electorate in France than there is in this country. This is a

much more tolerant country. If Marine Le Pen does well today, she

will not win that many because the centre-right and centre-left will

always gang up against terror in the second round, but it sets the tone

for the European elections. second round, but it sets the tone

and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's

doing masterfully is combining a far right politics with what you might

call a far left economic politics. She's not just picking up votes from

xenophobes, she is picking up votes from who feel victimised from

globalisation. They are people who would be voting for socialists but

are put off by the current president. That is what I do not

think the British far right parties have been able to do. You sort Simon

Derby try to tell you that the BNP are not far right party. I think he

was going to say if you look at issues of protectionism, standing up

against globalisation, they are quite statist. That is where the

phrase National Socialist comes from. That is why a little bit of

electoral success is often a killer for far right parties. They get a

few council seats and then they are rubbish. They are not getting

people's bins collected so they become part of the system that

people were voting against in the first place. Lets go on to the

Labour Party. If you are a Labour Party supporter and you want to be

cheered up, you pick up the Sunday Times where you see a poll where the

leader is up to seven points. If you are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be

cheered up, you pick up the Observer, the left-wing paper, where

the Labour leader Observer, the left-wing paper, where

have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record

briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the

mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been

a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing.

There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and

they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit

still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the

coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary

changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine.

What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this

has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a

very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and

then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The

British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party

political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people

from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a

bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being

unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining

characteristic is you unsettled. His defining

steadiness or you might call it a lack of agility. He could not

respond to the pension stuff in the budget which was thrown at him. But

he's very good at separating the signal from the noise. They may

think this will all change in me. The Tories may be on the back foot

after the European elections. He has the ability to set the political

weather. He did it with the price freeze. There is no doubt that Mr

Davey would not be referring these energy companies to the competition

authorities if it had not been for that speech by the Labour leader.

And we read today he has come up with another policy which will be

attention grabbing to cut student tuition fees. It is easy to forget

that before he announced the price freeze he was in as much vertical

trouble as he is now. I think the Labour poll lead will expand up to

five or 6% by the summer, assuming the Tories do badly. The question

is, is five or 6% enough? Nick through the analogy with 1987. This

reminds me of the Conservatives in 2009/10. You have a steadily sinking

poll lead, differences in what campaign they should be running and

personal animosity behind the scenes. It led to them throwing away

an election which seemed to be winnable. There is an important

difference with the 1980s winnable. There is an important

or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What

they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government

because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or

February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of

animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must

be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological

differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how

little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have

outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he

is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There

was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And

Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions

is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those

two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not

done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed

Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with

the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the

debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.

We have week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.

the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s remind ourselves of what happened in

last week's debate. I will ask Nick to open the batting.

We are better off in Europe... Frankly not working any more. A

referendum on Europe. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you can

read the small print. Pull up the drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We

have 485 million people... It is simply not true! Not true. Not true.

Not true. Identical with Nick. I don't agree with Nick. Based on

facts, facts, the facts, facts, the facts... Thank God we did not listen

to you. The food is getting better here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You

have never had a proper job. Great not little England. Good night.

I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. Helen, what was the outcome of that

and how do we mark our card for this week? It was not a great time for

pundits. Everybody called the debate for Nick and then they said

actually, we think it has gone the other way. Consensus emerged

actually, we think it has gone the on that Nick Clegg made a difficult

argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he

distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just

closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU

immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away

from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us

to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his

reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits.

I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage

would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public

favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question

is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to

that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a

binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on

opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg

needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very

well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he

said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to

talk with Ukraine. He then came back to

made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do

not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy,

it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or

without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and

also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an

hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but

Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal

with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has

honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two.

That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime

every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 1

o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.