06/04/2014 Sunday Politics North West


06/04/2014

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:35.:00:39.

Pressure on Culture Secretary Maria Miller mounts as the Tory press

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Tory voters and even a Tory Minister turn against her. That's our top

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story. The economic outlook is getting

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rosier. But Ed Miliband is having none of it. The cost of living

:00:50.:00:54.

crisis is here to stay, says Labour. Shadow Minister Caroline Flint joins

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us for the Sunday Interview. And we bring you the Sunday Politics

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Gallery. But which former world leader is behind these paintings of

:01:08.:01:09.

world leaders? new London borough. A blue flint for

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regeneration or economic Armageddon? And with me as always, the best and

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the brightest political panel in the business - Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis

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and Nick Watt. Their tweets will be as brief as a Cabinet Minister's

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apology. A frenzy of betting on the Grand

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National yesterday. But there was one book on which betting was

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suspended, and that was on the fate of Culture Secretary Maria Miller,

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now the 2/1 favourite to be forced out the Cabinet. She galloped

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through her apology to the Commons on Thursday in just 32 seconds. But

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speed did her no favours. There s been mounting pressure on her to

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resign ever since, especially from Tories. And this weekend the

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Chairman of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority,

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Ian Kennedy, said it's time MPs gave away the power to decide how

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colleagues who break the rules are punished. An inquiry into Maria

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Miller's expenses claims was launch in 2012, following allegations he

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claimed ?90,000 to fund a house she lived in part time with her parents.

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She had designated this her second home. She was referred to the

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Parliamentary Standards Commissioner, who recommended that

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she repay ?45,000. But this week the Commons Standards Committee,

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comprising of MPs from all parties, dismissed the complaint against

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Maria Miller and ordered her to repay just ?5,800 for inadvertently

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overclaiming her merge claimants. She was forced to apologise to the

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Commons for the legalistic way she dealt with the complaints against

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her. But Tony Gallagher told the Daily Politics on Friday: We got a

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third call from Craig Oliver who pointed out, she is looking at

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Leveson and the call is badly timed. I think if you are making a series

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of telephone calls to a newspaper organisation investigating the

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conduct of a Cabinet Minister, that comes close

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After that interview Craig Oliver contacted us, saying there was no

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threat in anyway over Leveson. I mead it clear at the time. Tony

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Gallagher is talking rubbish about me, and you can use that. The Daily

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Telegraph have released a tape of a phone call between Maria Miller s

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aid, Joanna Hindley, and a reporter investigating her expenses claim.

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Joanna Hindley said: Maria's obviously been having quite

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a lot of editor's meetings around Leveson at the moment. So I'm just

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going to kind of flag up that connection for you to think about.

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The Prime Minister is sticking by his Culture Secretary, but this

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weekend's crescendo of criticism of her presents him with a problem and

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he could be wishing Maria Miller would just fall on her sword. Even

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over 80% of Tory voters in a Mail on Sunday poll think she should go On

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the Andrew Marr Show, the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan

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Smith, defended his colleague. I've known her always to be a reasonable

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and honest person. But is she doing the Government or her any good by

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staying in office at the moment do you think? This is a matter the

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Prime Minister has to take consideration of and she herself. My

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view generally is I'm supportive of Maria, because if we are not careful

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we end one a witch-hunt of somebody. And I'm joined now by the

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Conservative MP, Bob Stewart, and the man in the white suit, former MP

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and anti-sleaze campaigner Martin Bell. Welcome to you both. Stuart

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Stuart sturkts let me put this to you, a Conservative MP told this

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programme, this is a quote, she has handled this appallingly. Downing

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Street has acted like judge and jury, for Craig Oliver to get

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involved is disastrous. She's been protected by the whips from the

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start. What do you say to that? It's not great, is it? The fact of the

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matter is the question one should ask is, did she deliberately try to

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make money? Did she deliberately try to obscure ate? The answer is she

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certainly didn't deliberately try to make money, in the system, which was

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the old system, and with regard to obscure ago, I wasn't there, but

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let's put it this way. She was going through a quasi-judicial process and

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might have ended up in court, so she has a right to defend herself. Hold

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on o you said she doesn't do it to make money, she remortgaged the

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house a couple of times to earn more interest to us, the taxpayer, and

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when interest rates went down she didn't reduce the amount she was

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charging in expenses. Well, the point is the adjudicator said there

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was ?45,000 she was owed. And then a committee, Standards Committee, said

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actually it should be reduced. That was mainly MPs but there are three

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lay members. Yes, but they don't have the vote. OK, fine, that is

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where it is wrong and we've got to get it sorted. Let me put another

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quote from our Conservative MP. He didn't want to be named. None of you

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do at the moment. I'm being named. But you are backing her. George

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young in cahoots. He's been leading on the Standards Committee to find

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her innocent. The Standards Committee is unfit for purpose. I

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think the Standards Committee should be revisited. I think the system is

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still evolving. And I think actually we ought to have totally independent

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judgment on MPs' pay and allowances. We haven't have not got there yet

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and that is where it is wrong. Martin Bell, have MPs interfered in

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the Maria Miller process and with the current Standards Commissioner

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in the same way that they saw off a previous Commissioner they thought

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was too independent? Andrew it is exactly the same. Yesterday I looked

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at a diary entry I made for May 2000, I said, dreadful meeting

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standards and privileges, they are playing party politics. One of them

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told Elizabeth fill kin to her face the gossip in the tea room was she

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had gone crazy. Nothing's changed. What this shows is most of all,

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what's the committee for? If it is just going to rubber stamp what the

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party wants and its mates, I don't see any point. But it hasn't rubber

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stamped. It's changed it. Well, it has watered down. That's why we

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should make it totally independent and it shouldn't be involved in the

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House of Commons. It is plus plus ca change isn't it? MPs', scandal, and

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MPs closing ranks for one of their own. Has the Commons learned

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nothing? And this is after the expenses scandal, where everything

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was out for everybody to see, you would think MPs would be careful.

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This is before the expenses scandal. We are looking at an historical

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event, during your time, Martin not mine. I'm clean on this. You

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campaigned for him as an independent. I did, he was a good

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friend of mine. And now you've joined the club. And now you are

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defending Maria Miller? I'm defending someone who hasn't been

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proved guilty of anything beyond the fact she was rather slow to come

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forward with evidence. My point on that, is I understand that. MPs are

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being lambasted the whole time these days. There were a heck of a lot of

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them, Martin, who are utterly decent. She didn't try to make

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money. We've just been through that. I don't think that's right. The jury

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is out on that. What should have happened in the Miller case, Martin

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Bell? I don't think there should be a committee on standards. I think

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the Commissioner should make a report. There has been to be justice

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for the MP complained against. Then the committee of the whole House can

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consider it. But we are, the House of Commons, then as now is incapable

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of regulating itself. That's been proving yet again. She made a

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perfunctory apology. She threatened and instructed the Standards

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Commissioner investigating her, and her special adviser linked expenses

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to Leveson, when trying to stop the Daily Telegraph from publishing I

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mean, is that the behaviour of a Cabinet Minister? Well, it's

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probably not the behaviour of someone that's got time on their

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hands. She's a very busy Cabinet Minister. Well, she had enough time

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to write lots of letters to the Standards Commission ser. She felt

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under such threat. She had the time. She had to make the time. Die know

:10:09.:10:14.

the lady is not trying desperately to make money. I disagree but on

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that. The fact of the matter is this was an old, old system, that

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we've tried to put right, or the Commons has tried to put right. I

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agree that MPs shouldn't get involved in this. Should we get rid

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of this committee? It serves no purpose except to cause trouble The

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adjudicator has said that and it should be the end of it. It

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shouldn't come back to the Commons. Although her special adviser

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threatened them over Leveson she was and is the Minister responsible for

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trying to introduce something like Leveson and that is something a big

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chunk that the press doesn't want. She is a target. It has a good

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record on this issue. It played wit a straight bat. The facts aren't in

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dispute are they? Will she make it to the next cabinet reshuffle and

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then go? Iain Duncan Smith said it is a matter for the Prime Minister.

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In my view, as things stand, I question did she deliberately want

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to make money? I don't think she did. Should she go? No. Should she

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be reshuffled? I don't know. Goodness me, you are asking someone

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who will never be reshuffled, because he will never make it. I was

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only asking for your opinion, not your ability to do it. This is a

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problem for Cameron isn't it? It is a problem for Cameron. There is

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nothing wrong with returning to be badge benches, as you know. Hear,

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hear. To that. Stick with me. Helen, can she survive? Is I'm going out of

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the prediction game when I said Clegg is going to win the date, so I

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owe Janan a tenner on that one. Grant Shapps has supported her. She

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was ringed by Sir George young and Jeremy Hunt... This is pretty

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devastating. On past form David Cameron hates having to bounce

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people out of the cabinet. He will want to keep Maria Miller until the

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summer reshuffle. This is a question mark on whether she survive this is.

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This isn't damaging to the Conservative or the Labour Party, it

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is damaging to everyone. This is catastrophic damage to the entire

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political establishment. Every single speech that David Cameron and

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Ed Miliband have given since 20 9, talking about restoring trust, they

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can wipe them from their computers, because voters are going to look

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that there and say, this lot haven't learnt anything. They are giving

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perfunctory apologies and then you have MPs sitting in judgment on MPs

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and rather than paying back ?45 000, she pays back ?5,800 after MPs have

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been into it. Damage is huge. Just getting rid of one Cabinet Minister,

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you will need to do more than that. You will notice that Labour haven't

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made huge weather of this. No, goodness me, they have their own

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skeletons. Exactly. The person who has made hay out of this is Nigel

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Farage, who has not been backwards in coming forward. He doesn't seem

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to care about skeletons. The Prime Minister has be-Gunby backing her,

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but that's not popular even with Tory voters. How does he get out of

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this? This is the problem for him. Five years ago his reaction to the

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expenses scandal was seen by many Tory backbenchers as excessive. They

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felt hung out to dry by a man who is independently wealthy. To go from

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that to making a special exemption to Maria Miller because it is

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politically suitable is more incendiary and provocative. It is

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not just upsetting the voters and the Daily Telegraph but a good

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number of people behind him. I think they will get rid of her. I think

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the Government, to paraphrase Churchill, will zoo the decent thing

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after exhausting all options, of the European elections a reshuffle. The

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culture department has gone from a baulk water in haul to one of the

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most politically sensational jobs because of its proximity to the

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Leveson issue. She has to be replaced by someone Lily skillful

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and substantial. Mr Cameron is not short of smart women? Nikki Morgan,

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the education department, these are absolutely outstanding women and the

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problem that the generation elected in 2005, Maria Miller generation,

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there are some really good people elected in 2010. You are not

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responsible for hacking into the culture Department's Twitter account

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last night? I was out at the time! They all say that! One so, Maria

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Miller is like a modern-day Robin Hood... She robs the poor to help

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the rich. Which one of us has not embezzled the taxpayer? I reckon it

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is the lady. You have the perfect cover. We would not know how to

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would we? You cannot tweet from a mobile device, can you? Play it

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safe. No, do something dramatic Have lots of pledges. Have just a

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few pledges. Ah, there must be a Labour policy review reaching its

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conclusion because everyone has some free advice for the party about its

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message and the man delivering it. Here's Adam. He is well liked by the

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public don't quite buy him as a leader. The papers say he is in hock

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to the unions and the party has a lead in the polls but it is not

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solid. Bartenders Neil Kinnock. That is what they said Winnie who lost

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the 1982 election. The whole country deserves better and we will work to

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ensure that the day will come when with the Labour government, the

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country will get better. Someone who was there can see some spooky

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parallels. The important lesson from 1992 is it cannot rest on your

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laurels and hope for the best, you cannot sit on a lead of seven points

:16:54.:16:59.

because the election narrows that and you cannot rely on the

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government not getting its act together because the Conservative

:17:03.:17:05.

Party was well funded and organised, the double whammy posters, the tax

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bombshell, but incredibly effective and the message was unified and they

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beat us on the campaign. The lesson for Labour today is this lead will

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evaporate quite possibly over the next few months and we might go into

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the election behind in the polls. But Ed Miliband is getting

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conflicting advice about how to avoid 1992 happening. Be bold, be

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cautious and then, the idea that Labour can squeak into office with

:17:38.:17:41.

just 35% of the vote, which worries some people. Each month, the Labour

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Party meets around the country and last week, everybody spoke about the

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dangers of this 35% strategy. They were increasingly unhappy and it is

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very important that those people around the leader naturally have a

:17:59.:18:04.

duty to protect him and they make sure he gets this message that while

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there is total support for him, they do want this key year in the run-up

:18:10.:18:13.

to the General Election to be putting out an alternative which we

:18:14.:18:20.

can defend on the doorstep. The doorstep where Neil Kinnock made his

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concession speech is crammed with Spanish back hackers. The old Labour

:18:24.:18:32.

offices are no a budget hostel. Labour headquarters is down the road

:18:33.:18:36.

and they are putting the finishing touches to a speech Ed Miliband will

:18:37.:18:40.

give this week about the cost of living and I am told he will drop

:18:41.:18:43.

hints about new policies in juicy areas like housing, low pay, growth

:18:44.:18:49.

and devolving power. As for the charge that they are not radical

:18:50.:18:52.

enough, his people say they want to be bold but they have to be credible

:18:53.:18:58.

as well. They say that Labour is more united than it has ever been

:18:59.:19:02.

but there has been some grumbling that the cost of living campaign is

:19:03.:19:05.

not the same as a vision for the country. And that Ed Miliband was

:19:06.:19:11.

not statesman-like enough at Prime Minister's Questions and one figure

:19:12.:19:14.

who sat at the same table in the Neil Kinnock years summed it up like

:19:15.:19:19.

this. Things are OK but it feels like we're playing for the draw

:19:20.:19:22.

Shadow Energy Secretary Caroline Flint joins me now for the Sunday

:19:23.:19:37.

Interview. This 35% victory strategy, it does not sound very

:19:38.:19:43.

ambitious? I am campaigning to win this election with a majority

:19:44.:19:46.

government and everybody else around the table is also. But we want to go

:19:47.:19:53.

to every corner of the country and win votes for Labour and win seats,

:19:54.:19:57.

that is what we are working towards. To avoid last time, the coalition

:19:58.:20:05.

bartering. But that 35% is a victory strategy so are you saying there is

:20:06.:20:11.

no 35% strategy and that no one at the heart of Labour is not arguing

:20:12.:20:16.

for this? We are working to win around the country and to win all of

:20:17.:20:20.

those battle ground seats and we must have a strategy that appeals to

:20:21.:20:25.

a cross-section of the public but within that, that broad group Queen

:20:26.:20:29.

Elizabeth Olympic Park and. You could do that with 35% of the vote?

:20:30.:20:38.

There is lots of polling and everyone looks at this about what we

:20:39.:20:44.

need to do to get seats and we want to have a comprehensive majority at

:20:45.:20:47.

the next election to win to govern this country. Last week, we have

:20:48.:20:54.

been reading reports of splits in the party over policy and on

:20:55.:20:59.

tactics, even strategy. A struggle for control of the General Election

:21:00.:21:05.

manifesto, we are told. What are you arguing over? I said on the

:21:06.:21:11.

committee and just listening to the film before, it is about being

:21:12.:21:15.

radical but also credible and we are talking about evolution and that is

:21:16.:21:21.

an important subject but we are also united and to be honest, in 201

:21:22.:21:27.

people were writing us off saying we would turn on ourselves and that has

:21:28.:21:31.

not been the case. We are not arguing about the fundamentals, we

:21:32.:21:35.

are discussing the policies that are coming up with different colleagues

:21:36.:21:40.

and talking about how we can make sure they are presented to the

:21:41.:21:43.

public and that is part of a process. That is a discussion, not

:21:44.:21:49.

disagreement. The Financial Times, which is usually pretty fair,

:21:50.:21:53.

reports a battle between Ed Miliband's radical instincts and the

:21:54.:21:59.

more business fiscal conservatism of Ed Balls. What side are you on? I am

:22:00.:22:05.

for radical change, I am for energy and I believe strongly we must be

:22:06.:22:10.

formed the market and people might portray that as anti-business but

:22:11.:22:16.

this is about more competition and transparency and others coming into

:22:17.:22:19.

this market so our policy on this is radical, not excepting the status

:22:20.:22:26.

quo. It is also for business. Opinion polls show that few people

:22:27.:22:34.

regard Ed Miliband as by Minister material -- Prime Minister material.

:22:35.:22:40.

That has been true since he became leader. And in some cases, they have

:22:41.:22:48.

been getting worse. Why is that Opinion polls say certain things

:22:49.:22:52.

about the personalities of leaders, David Cameron is not great either.

:22:53.:22:56.

And they were not great when he was in opposition. At this stage, he was

:22:57.:23:03.

getting 49% as Prime Minister real material and Ed Miliband, 19. -

:23:04.:23:13.

Prime Minister material. When you look at certain questions that the

:23:14.:23:17.

public is asked about who you think you would trust about being fair in

:23:18.:23:21.

terms of policy towards Britain who understands the cost of living

:23:22.:23:24.

crisis, they very much identify with Ed Miliband. We are ahead in the

:23:25.:23:31.

polls. Ed Miliband has made that happen. We have one more

:23:32.:23:38.

councillors, we have been running in by-elections and we have held this

:23:39.:23:42.

government over the barrel over six months on energy prices. That is to

:23:43.:23:47.

do with his leadership. The more that voters save him, the less they

:23:48.:23:53.

seem convinced. In 2011, he had been leader for one year, and only 1 %

:23:54.:24:00.

regarded him as weird, by 2014, that was 41%. Look at that! Look at that

:24:01.:24:09.

weirdness! What people need is to know where the Labour Party stands

:24:10.:24:12.

on fundamental issues. And in those areas, particularly the cost of

:24:13.:24:18.

living and fairness and people being concerned that we are entering into

:24:19.:24:22.

a period where people will be worse for the first time ever at the end

:24:23.:24:27.

of the Parliament, these things are important and Ed Miliband is part of

:24:28.:24:33.

our success. Definitely. I think this is ridiculous, to be fair, he

:24:34.:24:39.

is not a politician that says, I am dying with the Arctic monkeys, I

:24:40.:24:43.

know who is the number one. He did not play that game. -- down. He is

:24:44.:24:52.

not either there to portray himself as someone who was with the

:24:53.:24:55.

children, I know everything about popular culture. His authenticity is

:24:56.:25:01.

the most important thing. People do not think he is authentic, unless

:25:02.:25:06.

they think we were at is authentic. Is it true that his staff applaud

:25:07.:25:11.

him when he comes back after giving even a mediocre speech? I have never

:25:12.:25:20.

heard that. I have never heard about him being applauded. And I am

:25:21.:25:25.

pleased to applaud him with he makes speeches, I have given him a

:25:26.:25:30.

standing ovation. You have to do that because the cameras are

:25:31.:25:34.

rolling! No, he made a good speech. Five minutes without notes. It took

:25:35.:25:39.

a long time to memorise I don't blame him! The cost of living.

:25:40.:25:44.

Focusing on that, it has paid dividends. But inflation is falling

:25:45.:25:50.

and perhaps collapsing, unemployment is falling faster than anybody

:25:51.:25:54.

thought, as we can see. Wages are rising, soon faster than prices

:25:55.:26:01.

Retail sales are booming, people have got money in their pockets

:26:02.:26:06.

Isn't the cost of living crisis narrative running out of steam? I do

:26:07.:26:12.

not think so and I should say that I welcome any sign of positive changes

:26:13.:26:17.

in the economy, if anybody gets a job in Doncaster, I am pleased by

:26:18.:26:22.

the end of this Parliament families will be over ?900 worse off because

:26:23.:26:27.

of tax and benefit changes and the working person is ?1600 worse off

:26:28.:26:33.

and it is the first government since the 1870s where people will be at

:26:34.:26:38.

the end of the Parliament. We believe the government made wrong

:26:39.:26:42.

choices that lead the rich off at the expense of those on middle and

:26:43.:26:48.

lower incomes. -- let the rich. The average family ?794 worse off from

:26:49.:26:54.

tax and benefit changes. That has been backed up. They are those

:26:55.:27:00.

figures. But he has skewed these figures by including the richest,

:27:01.:27:04.

where the fall in tax and the penalty they pay is highest. If you

:27:05.:27:09.

take away the richest, it is nowhere near that figure. Everybody agrees

:27:10.:27:14.

and even the government and knowledges that at the end of their

:27:15.:27:17.

tenure in Parliament, people will be worse off. 350,000 extra people who

:27:18.:27:24.

would desperately like full-time work who are working part-time and 1

:27:25.:27:28.

million young people unemployed and the reason the cost of living has a

:27:29.:27:33.

residence is people feel that. I was in a supermarket and at Doncaster

:27:34.:27:37.

and someone summed this up, he said I work hard and at the end of the

:27:38.:27:41.

week, beyond paying bills, I have got nothing else. If you take away

:27:42.:27:49.

the top 10% who are losing over ?600,000, the average loss comes

:27:50.:27:55.

down to around ?400, less than half of what you claim. That figure is

:27:56.:28:02.

totally misleading. These are the figures from the IFS. It still

:28:03.:28:09.

shows... Whatever way you shape this, people will still be worse

:28:10.:28:14.

off, families worse off because of these changes to tax and benefits

:28:15.:28:18.

and working people because wages have not kept up with prices. Your

:28:19.:28:24.

energy portfolio, you back the enquiry into the big six companies

:28:25.:28:29.

and you intend to go ahead with the price freeze and reconfigure the

:28:30.:28:33.

market even before it reports. If you win, this is a waste of time?

:28:34.:28:37.

Whilst we have had this process before the announcement, we always

:28:38.:28:41.

feel if it goes that way, there might be areas we have not thought

:28:42.:28:46.

of that the enquiry will also draw attention to that we might want to

:28:47.:28:51.

add on. You are right, our basic reforms for the new regulator, to

:28:52.:28:54.

separate generation supply, we will pursue that. What happens if this

:28:55.:29:00.

report concludes that your plans are not correct? You will still go

:29:01.:29:06.

ahead? I don't think so. Actually, if you look at the report that Ofgem

:29:07.:29:10.

produced, some of the issues Labour has been drawing attention to like

:29:11.:29:13.

vertical integration, they cover that. I was asking about the

:29:14.:29:20.

Competition Commission? The report last week is a result of working

:29:21.:29:25.

together and I think it is clearly accepted in this sector, look at SSE

:29:26.:29:31.

last week, they will separate the business. We are pushing at the open

:29:32.:29:51.

door. It has already pulled out of gas. So it follows if you freeze

:29:52.:29:55.

energy prices across the market it might be the right thing to do but

:29:56.:29:59.

there will be a cost in terms of jobs and investment, correct? Well,

:30:00.:30:04.

I met with SSE last weekand the chief executive and talked about

:30:05.:30:07.

these issues. The jobs changes are partly about them looking at how

:30:08.:30:11.

they could be more efficient as a company. On offshore wind that

:30:12.:30:15.

wasn't really to do with the price freeze. That was more to do with

:30:16.:30:17.

issues around confidence in that area and therefore willing to put

:30:18.:30:22.

the money into it, as well as technical issues as well But

:30:23.:30:28.

there'll be job losses. Is that a price worth paying? We believe the

:30:29.:30:32.

reason we are having a price freeze is these companies have been

:30:33.:30:36.

overcharging customers and haven't been investing in their

:30:37.:30:39.

organisations and making them more efficient. I do not believe a price

:30:40.:30:44.

freeze is linked to job losses. These companies do need to be more

:30:45.:30:48.

efficient. Goal for all of us is realising the fantastic opportunity

:30:49.:30:52.

for more jobs and growth from an energy sector that has certainty

:30:53.:30:55.

going forward. That's what Labour will deliver. Caroline Flint, thank

:30:56.:30:58.

you. It's 1130 and you're watching The

:30:59.:31:01.

Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us

:31:02.:31:04.

now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in

:31:05.:31:17.

Hello. I'm Arif Ansari. Comhng up in the north`west, cracking up. And

:31:18.:31:24.

nobody is laughing on Mersexside after the combined authoritx's first

:31:25.:31:28.

meeting. Whitehall is just touring their hands up and laughing at us,

:31:29.:31:32.

and I'm sure the Manchester authorities are sniggering `ll the

:31:33.:31:35.

way to the bank over this. They could not have had a worse start. In

:31:36.:31:40.

proper working order in our studio, we have Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP

:31:41.:31:44.

for Bury South, and the Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary, and

:31:45.:31:49.

Graham Evans, Conservative LP for Weaver Vale. Graham, we will talk

:31:50.:31:53.

about the Merseyside combindd authority, about political

:31:54.:31:57.

cooperation. How difficult hs that in politics? I think it is fairly

:31:58.:32:02.

easy. My experience as a new MP I have always worked really treasure

:32:03.:32:08.

MP, and all the cash MPs, including Merseyside MPs. I find it e`sy to

:32:09.:32:12.

act in the regional interest. Even with a different party? Yes. Ivan,

:32:13.:32:19.

Northern Ireland is all abott relationships and cooperation now.

:32:20.:32:22.

Yes, and putting aside historical differences, feuds, egos, and the

:32:23.:32:27.

kissing on the big picture, jobs, growth, transport and

:32:28.:32:32.

infrastructure. As a Mancunhan, I am reluctant to comment on Merseyside,

:32:33.:32:38.

but I think local authoritids do a remarkable job protecting the

:32:39.:32:41.

communities from Tory lead cuts But it is incredibly important they come

:32:42.:32:44.

together to look at the intdrest of the sub region as a whole, `nd I

:32:45.:32:47.

hope they can put aside these divisions of recent days and focus

:32:48.:32:50.

on the things that matter to the people of Merseyside. Maybe they

:32:51.:32:55.

need to get you in there to give me talking to! On last week's

:32:56.:33:00.

programme, we tell you how Merseyside's combined authority

:33:01.:33:03.

would be for the first time on April Fools' Day. But which of thd six

:33:04.:33:06.

council leaders will be chahring itlast week, I asked the le`der of

:33:07.:33:13.

Knowsley Council about it. That will be decided by democratic process on

:33:14.:33:17.

Tuesday morning. That will be our first item on the agenda. So how

:33:18.:33:23.

well did that go? Not very. Our reporter has more.

:33:24.:33:28.

Take B6 Merseyside council `nd create a single body to provide

:33:29.:33:32.

clear leadership. The plan was simple enough. But that was before

:33:33.:33:36.

the six heads were asked to choose one to represent them. Liverpool

:33:37.:33:42.

mayor and his political allx, second bug macro petered out, weren't even

:33:43.:33:46.

in the room when Phil Davies of the Wirral was appointed the ch`ir of

:33:47.:33:51.

the new regional authority. It was not the start many had hoped for the

:33:52.:33:55.

new combined authority, which met here. And it did not end thdre,

:33:56.:34:02.

because what followed was a public fallout and concern over ex`ctly who

:34:03.:34:05.

would be less involved in this new authority. Joe Anderson, thd leader

:34:06.:34:11.

of the biggest council, clahmed he was banned from becoming ch`ir

:34:12.:34:15.

because the majority felt hd was too big a personality, and Liverpool was

:34:16.:34:19.

too strong, and described it as a missed opportunity, accusing the

:34:20.:34:23.

others up indulging in Toytown politics. Ultimately, a votd is to

:34:24.:34:29.

place, a democratic process occurred, and we have a chahr of the

:34:30.:34:34.

combined authority. If you live in the other authorities in thhs

:34:35.:34:38.

country, whether Sheffield, Leeds all the Northeast, none of the core

:34:39.:34:43.

cities chair them. I think dach leader chose Phil on his merits Be

:34:44.:34:49.

split is being seen as amatdur in. This is bad for investment, both

:34:50.:34:53.

public and private sector. Whitehall is throwing their hands up `nd

:34:54.:34:57.

laughing at us. Be combined authority should be focusing on

:34:58.:35:02.

regional strategies on the dconomy, regeneration and transport,

:35:03.:35:06.

something one group that represents around 170 organisations is quick to

:35:07.:35:12.

point out. We have members who are big national and international

:35:13.:35:14.

organisations, and they feel they are part of a city and a region

:35:15.:35:19.

which is beginning to work very effectively, so they are

:35:20.:35:23.

disappointed. Joe Anderson hs taking legal advice, which he says is about

:35:24.:35:28.

how we extricate ourselves from the process legally and not abott the

:35:29.:35:32.

behaviour of others will stop there was clearly a majority in the room.

:35:33.:35:36.

There were four people who voted for somebody else to be chair, so the

:35:37.:35:40.

decision is made, under the legislation, it is thereford

:35:41.:35:44.

invalid. That has not stoppdd some people asking if we are heading for

:35:45.:35:47.

the end of the combined authority before it has even begun.

:35:48.:35:52.

We are joined from Liverpool by Peter Dowd, the Labour leaddr of

:35:53.:35:57.

Sefton Council. Thank you vdry much for joining us. Perhaps you could

:35:58.:36:01.

begin by explaining what happened, and why you and Joe Anderson were

:36:02.:36:05.

not in the votes to decide who should be chairman. There w`s a

:36:06.:36:11.

meeting at ten o'clock that all the leaders were out, a pre`meeting to

:36:12.:36:15.

go through some business, and we effectively could not get a

:36:16.:36:18.

consensus as to who should be the leader. I left about our past ten.

:36:19.:36:23.

Joe Anderson and I went into a meeting to discuss matters with our

:36:24.:36:27.

chief executives, and by thd time we came out, after 11 o'clock, the

:36:28.:36:32.

decision to appoint the new chair and vice`chair had been madd. One

:36:33.:36:37.

thing we are told by the others in the rumour that the chief Executive

:36:38.:36:42.

of the authority came out and spoke to you and Joe Anderson, and you

:36:43.:36:46.

both said that you were not going to be in that meeting, and that's why

:36:47.:36:50.

she went back, told them th`t, and they decided to press on. Is that

:36:51.:36:55.

true or not? No, that is not what happened. That is not correct. The

:36:56.:37:01.

bottom line is, I turned about the meeting at ten o'clock, with every

:37:02.:37:05.

intention, as is my responshbility, of going to the 11 o'clock leeting,

:37:06.:37:10.

which I did fall is top I arrived slightly later, because of the

:37:11.:37:14.

conversations we were having. What do you make of the leader of Saint

:37:15.:37:22.

Helens Council telling us that the problem is that his ego is `t the

:37:23.:37:30.

centre of all this and otherwise Joe Anderson and's? Identix at that We

:37:31.:37:35.

as leaders have met in one form or another for the past 30 years. There

:37:36.:37:39.

has been a huge amount of cooperation. That is why we are here

:37:40.:37:43.

at the moment. You push this through. I don't think it w`s about

:37:44.:37:48.

that. I believe the status puo was the most appropriate way forward, at

:37:49.:37:51.

least during the transition period. There is no compelling reason why

:37:52.:37:56.

Joe, who chaired the non`st`tutory body, why that shouldn't carry on in

:37:57.:38:01.

the statutory format. You fdlt it was important that he should? Yes.

:38:02.:38:07.

There was a period of continuity for the next 12 months, maybe, while we

:38:08.:38:11.

got everything in place. Thhs is a new statutory body, and it seemed to

:38:12.:38:17.

change course halfway through was inappropriate. In the case of

:38:18.:38:20.

Greater Manchester, they have Lord Peter Smith and Wigan, not from

:38:21.:38:26.

Manchester. This is not Manchester. We are all different in that regard.

:38:27.:38:33.

We came into this body on the 1st of April, and it seemed to me that at

:38:34.:38:39.

this particular point, Mersdyside's situation, that continuity would

:38:40.:38:42.

have been the most appropri`te way forward. It was determined that

:38:43.:38:45.

would not be the case, and we now just move on and get on with the

:38:46.:38:50.

business. Joe Anderson has lade it clear there would be legal `ction,

:38:51.:38:54.

that he is going to get on with the job now. But I would think xou

:38:55.:38:59.

access that this is the worst start to it imaginable? It is a dhfficult

:39:00.:39:05.

start, but at the end of thd day. Politics can be robust, and it can

:39:06.:39:10.

be that way in Merseyside. H think it shows that we are passionate

:39:11.:39:13.

about we want to do and how we want to take things forward, and I would

:39:14.:39:17.

rather be passionate about things than sleepwalking on the job. But

:39:18.:39:22.

you can be passionate withott falling out. In politics, you

:39:23.:39:29.

sometimes fallout. You fallout in every area of occasions, and this

:39:30.:39:32.

has to be put into context `nd perspective. We have worked

:39:33.:39:37.

collaboratively, progressivdly and proactively for many years, and will

:39:38.:39:40.

continue to do so. I don't think this particular incident is a show

:39:41.:39:46.

stopper. Graham, we have halted in Council, that is part of it, partly

:39:47.:39:52.

in your constituency. How sdrious a problem is this? Well, I am very

:39:53.:39:58.

disappointed. He talked abott the politics of it, but what about the

:39:59.:40:01.

economic 's? There is huge potential in Merseyside. The message hs that

:40:02.:40:06.

we can't agree and we are split on the first day. It is about hnward

:40:07.:40:10.

investment. What message dods it send to Chinese investors, bringing

:40:11.:40:14.

investment, jobs and growth to Merseyside? Not the right mdssage.

:40:15.:40:18.

As Ivan said, you only have to look at what has happened and Manchester

:40:19.:40:22.

will stop inward investment and long`term, sustainable growth. That

:40:23.:40:28.

is what we need in Merseyside, in all the boroughs of Merseyshde. Are

:40:29.:40:32.

you certain this is damaging, or will it be brushed off and love on?

:40:33.:40:38.

I am an optimist. I like to think things can be sorted out, and they

:40:39.:40:42.

can get background the tabld to sort out this issue, and I would

:40:43.:40:45.

encourage them to do that as soon as possible. It sends out the wrong

:40:46.:40:50.

message, not just nationallx, but internationally. Ivan, you probably

:40:51.:40:55.

agree. Of course. But we should remember the major challengd facing

:40:56.:41:00.

these leaders, who are doing an excellent job, at least Torx lead

:41:01.:41:05.

cuts from Westminster. We should remember on an occasion likd this

:41:06.:41:09.

that the people we are taught me about a high`calibre people

:41:10.:41:11.

providing really exceptional leadership individual circulstances.

:41:12.:41:17.

They understand better than anyone, and only lectures from outshde, that

:41:18.:41:20.

this was unfortunate. It wotld have been better if it had not h`ppened.

:41:21.:41:25.

We know in terms of the Manchester model, the potential for getting

:41:26.:41:28.

this right, in tins of jobs and growth will stop the cost of living

:41:29.:41:31.

crisis facing people across Merseyside. I would ask my

:41:32.:41:36.

colleagues, and I don't think they need me to tell them, to put the big

:41:37.:41:40.

picture first, and that is the interests of the people of

:41:41.:41:44.

Merseyside, the bread and bttter issues concerning them, and also

:41:45.:41:48.

celebrating the fact that Mdrseyside has recently made significant

:41:49.:41:52.

progress. There is always a Manchester ` Merseyside deb`te. But

:41:53.:41:57.

in Manchester, we are proud of the last 30 years' development. But

:41:58.:42:01.

Merseyside has also recentlx been doing well as well, and that has

:42:02.:42:04.

come from civic leadership. This is not a good example of that, though.

:42:05.:42:11.

Let me go back quickly to Pdter in Liverpool. Peter, what do you make

:42:12.:42:14.

of what Graham was saying, that economic leave this is damaging in

:42:15.:42:20.

terms of investment? I don't think it is damaging at all. I thhnk it

:42:21.:42:24.

amounts to a head`up, and shows you how passionate we are about it. It

:42:25.:42:28.

is partly about economic 's, but in the context of the kicking we are

:42:29.:42:31.

getting from his government in terms of expenditure, this is on the

:42:32.:42:38.

low`end of the Richter scald. Thank you very much for talking to us

:42:39.:42:44.

Now, while the combined authority is proving to be more of a gamble than

:42:45.:42:47.

expected, many of you will have gambled on more traditional sporting

:42:48.:42:51.

event this weekend. But the betting slip is on the way out, and one

:42:52.:42:55.

local MP claims that adverts for online betting or gambling `` are

:42:56.:43:01.

gambling with our children's future. Our reporter has more.

:43:02.:43:12.

It's the biggest betting wedkend of the year, but gambling isn't just a

:43:13.:43:21.

race course feature any mord. It is all about the next goal, thd number

:43:22.:43:26.

of calls, the match goals, the final score. It is now online and on your

:43:27.:43:33.

TV. Last year, there were 1.4 million gambling ads. One in 24 of

:43:34.:43:39.

all adds shown on television. Tory MPs Jake Berry wants to restrict

:43:40.:43:44.

those adverts to after 9pm. Jake, why are you trying to bring in this

:43:45.:43:49.

bill? I am really concerned as in the last decade, the number of

:43:50.:43:53.

opportunities for people to gamble at massively increased. I al

:43:54.:43:56.

concerned about those adverts being shown to people under the age of

:43:57.:44:03.

16. We must act now. This wdek, he launched a bill in the Commons, but

:44:04.:44:06.

faced opposition from some on his own side. My honourable fridnd is a

:44:07.:44:13.

good man, but on this, he is badly misguided. I think this measure is

:44:14.:44:20.

an extension of the nanny state it is a liberal, it is not backed up by

:44:21.:44:26.

the available evidence. How did you get on yesterday? Really good. We

:44:27.:44:32.

had 300 people in altogether. As a youth worker, Nathan feels lany

:44:33.:44:36.

teenagers can be misguided `bout gambling. Same macro the three main

:44:37.:44:41.

areas we struggle with our pal, pornography and gambling. Those are

:44:42.:44:44.

things people have unrestricted access to, even though it is really

:44:45.:44:48.

for over 18 's. If you are constantly being told ending courage

:44:49.:44:52.

to find that behaviour, it hs something that can be quite

:44:53.:44:53.

addictive. Paul is constantly on the lookout

:44:54.:45:04.

for addicts and underage galblers. Protecting his punters and being

:45:05.:45:10.

responsible, he says, is part of the job. We have a strict think 21

:45:11.:45:16.

policy, the same as in any pub or licensed premises. No under 18 is

:45:17.:45:20.

allowed to enter the premisds, and we regulate in`house and do external

:45:21.:45:26.

checks as well. Gambling restrictions were relaxed bx the

:45:27.:45:29.

Blair government. Gordon Brown dropped the idea of super c`sinos,

:45:30.:45:34.

but kept most of the legisl`tion. This campaign group supports

:45:35.:45:38.

gambling, but not at any prhce. The last Labour government the regular

:45:39.:45:42.

and liberalised gambling to the extent where we are now the Las

:45:43.:45:49.

Vegas of Europe. We have 24`hour advertisements. It is badly wrong.

:45:50.:45:53.

Will rolling some of that b`ck be a safe bet for our children?

:45:54.:45:59.

Ivan, you are formerly the shadow Secretary of State for Culttre,

:46:00.:46:02.

Media and Sport. These support that kind of move? Hundreds of thousands

:46:03.:46:06.

of people will have a fight at on the Grand National safely. But we

:46:07.:46:14.

know gambling ravages peopld lives and has a detrimental effect if out

:46:15.:46:17.

of control. It is getting the balance right between a harlless

:46:18.:46:22.

flutter for some and a terrhble addiction for some. We support

:46:23.:46:25.

giving local authorities, for example, the power to limit the

:46:26.:46:30.

number of gambling shops in any one area. The current government do not

:46:31.:46:37.

support that. We called on the government for a fundamental review

:46:38.:46:41.

of advertising before the w`tershed, because we have major concerns. So

:46:42.:46:47.

you would ban it? No, our position is to have a fundamental review

:46:48.:46:52.

look at the positives and ndgatives. But we are concerned. The government

:46:53.:46:55.

listened to our call for a review, and it is under way at the loment.

:46:56.:47:03.

Why do you think? It is a L`bour Party issue, because it was them who

:47:04.:47:07.

introduced the legislation. There were no gambling machines then, but

:47:08.:47:14.

there were 30000 x 2010. Thdre is already the power to restrict the

:47:15.:47:17.

number of gambling shops on the High Street in place. With regard to Jake

:47:18.:47:23.

Berry's Bill, I agree, thinking that advertising before the watershed is

:47:24.:47:28.

not a good idea, so I support that. You would ban it? Same macro I would

:47:29.:47:34.

restrict it, yes. You don't believe it is the nanny state? No, H think

:47:35.:47:40.

it is like smoking, and also alcohol advertising. On balance, I think

:47:41.:47:47.

Jake Berry is correct. Realistically, he will not get

:47:48.:47:50.

anywhere, because this is a ten minute rule Bill, and they'll lose

:47:51.:47:53.

bail. Should the government take this up? I would think so, xes. If

:47:54.:47:59.

there is evidence it could hnfluence young people and become an

:48:00.:48:04.

addiction, of course we shotld take necessary action. This is the party

:48:05.:48:08.

that relaxed the legislation, so it is very much at their doorstep.

:48:09.:48:13.

First, we suggested that local authorities be able to control the

:48:14.:48:17.

number of betting shops. Thd government would not supporters

:48:18.:48:22.

Second, they were calling for more and more deregulation, not lore

:48:23.:48:25.

legislation, so it is hypocritical for them to try and blame L`bour

:48:26.:48:31.

when they wanted more deregtlation. Local authorities or the have the

:48:32.:48:38.

power to restrict the number of business premises on one High St.

:48:39.:48:42.

Let's leave it there. Now thme for the rest of the week's news. This

:48:43.:48:50.

conservative setback MP Mark Menzies after Loroupe tabloid alleg`tions.

:48:51.:48:54.

The Prime Minister has offered his qualified support. He wants to set

:48:55.:48:58.

out in his own time, and cancer to the allegations, anything wd should

:48:59.:49:02.

give him the chance to do that. Calls for Foreign Office al Parejo

:49:03.:49:06.

housewife imprisoned in Iran for posting critical message on

:49:07.:49:10.

Facebook. She was visiting family, and denies spying. The sun of Arthur

:49:11.:49:14.

Horrocks was among those who paid tribute to lost loved ones `t the

:49:15.:49:18.

inquest into the deaths of 86 football fans at Hillsborough got

:49:19.:49:20.

underway in Warrington. It could take one year. Is the

:49:21.:49:26.

volumes to the regard in whhch at the was held. The TUC wants action,

:49:27.:49:31.

after figures showed as manx as 40% of workers in the north`west are

:49:32.:49:35.

paid less the living wage. Lake District hoteliers gavd the

:49:36.:49:38.

thumbs down to plans for a new 5 million development. Premier Inn

:49:39.:49:42.

must now submit a full planning application.

:49:43.:49:52.

Ivan, the Mark Menzies situ`tion has been quite important. What do you

:49:53.:50:00.

think? Are these really personal matters? I think it's a personal

:50:01.:50:03.

tragedy, and entirely betwedn him and his constituents. Where do you

:50:04.:50:08.

draw the line between a personal issue and an MP's behaviour pushing

:50:09.:50:14.

it into the public realm? I think that is a judgement to be m`de by

:50:15.:50:19.

the people who vote for that person. That is the nature of

:50:20.:50:22.

democracy, a direct relationship between us and our voters, but also

:50:23.:50:28.

the party we stand for, as we stand on a ticket. That is where those

:50:29.:50:32.

issues should be resolved. People have a right to defend themselves.

:50:33.:50:36.

Mark has said many of these allegations are untrue and he wants

:50:37.:50:40.

to contest them. He is entitled to space for that. What do you think

:50:41.:50:43.

should be done, Graham? I essentially agree. It is a latter of

:50:44.:50:50.

the relationship between Mark and his association, but they are

:50:51.:50:55.

allegations, and he wants to clear his name because he disputes a lot

:50:56.:50:59.

of them. Does he need to be able to say some of this is untrue? In the

:51:00.:51:03.

fullness of time, I'm sure that is what will come out. Thank you to

:51:04.:51:05.

both of Dobson. Tim Donovan is back in the

:51:06.:51:08.

chair next week. And with that, back to Andrew. Welcome back and time now

:51:09.:51:21.

to get more from our panel. So they can justify their meagre patents.

:51:22.:51:28.

This cost of living mantra will last all the way until the election.

:51:29.:51:33.

Cannot? Ed Miliband leaves he is onto something and for most of this

:51:34.:51:37.

Parliament, inflation has outstripped wages. That is going to

:51:38.:51:42.

go the other way and wages will rise, to which you say Ed Miliband

:51:43.:51:48.

has nothing to say. He says if you think people are going to feel

:51:49.:51:52.

better in the blink of an eye, you are a Conservative and do not

:51:53.:51:55.

understand the depth of this and he is taking the message from a

:51:56.:51:59.

presidential election in America in 2012 and make Romney was ahead on

:52:00.:52:05.

some of the economic indicators but Barack Obama was ahead on the key

:52:06.:52:10.

one, do you believe this candidate will make your family's life

:52:11.:52:13.

better? The message that Ed Miliband will try to say is the next election

:52:14.:52:20.

is about whose side are you on? And he believes Labour will be on the

:52:21.:52:23.

side of more voters than conservatives. It would be crazy for

:52:24.:52:27.

Labour not to talk about the cost of living because even if wages exceed

:52:28.:52:33.

inflation next year, it is not as if voters will walk around feeling like

:52:34.:52:36.

Imelda Marcos, they will still feel as if they were struggling and not

:52:37.:52:42.

just compared... Retail sales are slowing? That is not the sign of

:52:43.:52:49.

palpable disparity. Circumstances are better than three years ago but

:52:50.:52:56.

not better than five years ago. The Reagan question will still be

:52:57.:52:59.

employed, are you better off than at the last election? But things in

:53:00.:53:05.

America were actually getting worse when he asked that. I covered that

:53:06.:53:10.

election, that is why it resonated and they did get worse. The

:53:11.:53:15.

Ayatollah had quadrupled the price of oil. This is based on things

:53:16.:53:21.

getting relatively better, after a very long wait, so the cost of

:53:22.:53:26.

living critique will have to adapt? It will but it gets out of a very

:53:27.:53:32.

sticky spot and the IFS says wages will not outstrip inflation and by

:53:33.:53:36.

that time they can start talking about other things, plans for the

:53:37.:53:40.

railways and tuition fees and at the moment, everything is up for grabs.

:53:41.:53:45.

Labour know that every time they talk about something they want to

:53:46.:53:48.

do, the question is, how do you pay for it? They can talk about the

:53:49.:53:53.

economy and they don't have substantial things to say. Is it

:53:54.:53:56.

true that Mr Iain Duncan Smith was going to make a major announcement

:53:57.:54:02.

on benefit cheats? Or something to do with that this morning? But he

:54:03.:54:07.

decided against it because of the tobacco over Maria Miller? It would

:54:08.:54:11.

be very odd to go on to The Andrew Marr Show to have a chat and see

:54:12.:54:17.

what he is having for lunch. Patrick went from the Guardian said he was

:54:18.:54:20.

going to set out higher financial penalty phase for providing

:54:21.:54:24.

inaccurate information in claims. This is a bad day to do that, given

:54:25.:54:30.

that MP expenses are treated far more lenient the than any one from

:54:31.:54:36.

Joe public. That would be fascinating, if true. And he is

:54:37.:54:41.

making a very big speech on well for tomorrow and this tweet from Patrick

:54:42.:54:46.

went at the Guardian, he has proper sized on welfare matters and he

:54:47.:54:50.

tends to know what is going on. But it would be deeply unfortunate if

:54:51.:54:56.

that was the message today. How can he make a speech that has anything

:54:57.:54:59.

about cracking down on benefit claimants? Not today but I am not

:55:00.:55:04.

sure tomorrow. Do you get the impression that nobody in both main

:55:05.:55:11.

parties is very confident of winning in 2015? I column last week said the

:55:12.:55:16.

result, the most likely result from one year on is another hung

:55:17.:55:20.

parliament and which government results from that depends on the

:55:21.:55:25.

mathematical specifics of whether the Tories can do a deal as well as

:55:26.:55:29.

Labour, leaving everything in the hands of Nick Clegg or whether one

:55:30.:55:33.

party can do a straightforward deal but I do not detect any sense of

:55:34.:55:37.

exuberance or confidence in either camp. And the Tories are still

:55:38.:55:43.

shooting themselves over losing the boundary commission reforms because

:55:44.:55:47.

that was going to net them 20 seats and they lost that because they

:55:48.:55:51.

messed up the House of Lords reform and there are still furious with

:55:52.:55:54.

themselves. The former US President, George W Bush, has been a busy boy

:55:55.:55:58.

and here at the Sunday Politics we thought you'd like to see the

:55:59.:56:02.

results of his artistic endeavours. Time for the gallery.

:56:03.:56:06.

I was a prize to find myself saying, some of these are not bad! --

:56:07.:56:54.

surprised. Vladimir Putin? I like the one of Tony Blair but his early

:56:55.:57:01.

ones of dogs, to be in the presence of the master is to see his portrait

:57:02.:57:06.

of a Joanne Love. He is not of the Turner prize but I was surprised. He

:57:07.:57:11.

gets the mask of Vladimir Putin also Tony Blair. I was impressed

:57:12.:57:17.

that he did not allow personal or political grudges to influence his

:57:18.:57:22.

artwork. Jacques Chirac, he comes out of this incredibly well! And

:57:23.:57:26.

Angela Merkel comes out astonishingly well. Quite generous

:57:27.:57:33.

as well. Tony Blair is the best one and the reason is he had the closest

:57:34.:57:37.

relationship with them and he has talked about this portrait, saying

:57:38.:57:41.

he was quite fond of him and you can see that. These are awful, they

:57:42.:57:47.

would not get you an A-level but you must admire him to have the guts to

:57:48.:57:53.

do this, and display them publicly! An A-level? Just doing joined up

:57:54.:57:59.

numbers gets you that these days! What do you do when you retire? This

:58:00.:58:04.

is less embarrassing than some of the other things people have done.

:58:05.:58:08.

As good as Churchill? I don't know... No! Churchill was brilliant!

:58:09.:58:17.

And on that! That's all for today. Tune into BBC Two every day at

:58:18.:58:20.

lunchtime this week for the Daily Politics. And we'll be back at the

:58:21.:58:23.

later time of 2:30pm next Sunday after the London Marathon. Remember,

:58:24.:58:26.

if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:58:27.:58:33.

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