04/05/2014 Sunday Politics North West

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Walls are being

re-painted in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in police

custody in connection with one of the most brutal and shocking murders

of the Troubles. That's our top story.

He may have got egg on his face this week but Nigel Farage is a serious

electoral threat in this month's elections. I'll ask the Conservative

Party Chairman Grant Shapps how worried he is.

And we're on the trail of Nick Clegg. You were voted the best

looking party leader and the most likely to be a good cook.

In the North West, we look ahead to the European elections, taking two

viewers to Brussels. Will the trip leave them any the wiser?

questions of identity, immigration and independence. We have a table

full of Euro candidates here to debate what it means for London.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the

business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. They'll be

throwing metaphorical rotten eggs into the twittersphere.

First this morning - Gerry Adams, President of Sinn Fein, has spent a

fourth night in police custody after he was arrested in connection with

the killing of Jean McConville more than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has

claimed that the arrest is politically motivated coming, as it

does, during local and European election campaigns. Northern

Ireland's deputy first minister, Martin McGuinness, has indicated he

might review the party's support for policing in the province if Gerry

Adams is charged. The Jean McConville murder was one of the

most notorious cases of the Troubles.

The widowed mother of ten was kidnapped from her home in December

1972, never to be seen alive again. The IRA denied involvement but in

1999 admitted it had murdered her and several others, known as the

Disappeared. Before his death, the former IRA commander Brendan Hughes

pointed the finger at Gerry Adams, claiming:

In April this year, either Bell was charged with aiding and abetting the

murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams has always insisted he is innocent

of any part in the abduction and killing all burial of Mrs

McConville. We were hoping to speak to the

Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa Villiers, but having agreed to do an

interview with us this morning, she pulled out. But we are joined from

Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And

the police just doing their job by questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams

said publicly some time ago that he was available to speak to the

police, but that is not what this is about at the moment, because what we

have here is clearly evidence in our mind of political interference in

what should be due process. Gerry Adams made it clear some time ago he

wanted to speak to the police, it was available at any time, and yet

that request was not taken up until three weeks into an election and we

believe that was deliberately orchestrated by a small number of

people. What evidence can you present this morning that proves

that claim? The direct circumstances Gerry Adams finds himself in at the

moment, take that in stark contrast when they have dealt with members of

the British Army for instance... That is just circumstantial. The

PSNI know that the soldiers involved in that and a number of other

high-profile killings of citizens here, and not one of those people

has been arrested. In fact any of the people who were interviewed were

interviewed by request. There was a stark contrast, in terms of how they

have dealt with the British military involving state killings. We haven't

got too much time. Sinn Fein said it would review its support for the

PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That sounds like political interference

in the police process. It's not because we have a clear mandate from

the people who elect us. Policing has been an important part of the

peace process here for many years, Sinn Fein plays an important role in

local policing partnerships. We negotiate to make sure we have

powers transferred here to elected representatives in the north. It is

a long way to go before we have policing highly accountable, and

making sure they deliver a very impartial service. How will he react

if Gerry Adams is charged? I am still trying to get a clear answer.

If Gerry Adams is charged, will you withdraw support for the Northern

Ireland police service? We view this as a serious situation and a serious

ongoing situation and we will monitor how this pans out. We have a

very important role to play to support the police service here. We

have done consistently, worked with them on a daily basis, but we will

not accept political interference by a small number of people in the

police who are undermining the police. We will not accept political

policing. If there was evidence, and I emphasise the word if, because we

have seen none, but if there were evidence to justify Gerry Adams

being charged, why should he not be charged? It is my understanding from

the family of Gerry Adams that there has not been a single shred of

evidence put forward. I understand that, but if there was evidence, why

should he not be charged? You put that caveat yourself and then you

expect me to speculate, there is no way I will do that. The fact of the

matter is there hasn't been one single shred of evidence put to

Gerry Adams in the last few days, in fact what has been put to him is a

range of issues of newspaper cuttings, books, statements made

from people, including from people who didn't want their statements

released until they have died. who didn't want their statements

was charged, again I emphasise the word if, does the police process

fall apart? The police process is a fragile entity, it requires work and

we have been saying this publicly and privately with the Irish and

British and privately with the Irish and

process has to be nurtured and developed. We are not out of the

woods yet. From a Republican point of view we have been working flat

out. I just wanted a quick answer to my question, is a yes or no? What

question I asking me? Is the peace process in jeopardy? It is fragile

and I am not going to have words put into my mouth but I don't want to

use. It has to be worked out and nurtured. Thank you for joining us.

Nick Watt, you were a Northern Ireland correspondent like myself in

days gone by. Where is this going to go? It shows how challenging the

peace process is because on the one hand you have the unspeakable pain

of the McConville family, but you also have the danger of not having

mechanisms to deal with the past. South Africa is a good example, you

have to have some mechanism to deal with the past because if you don't,

you are going to have, as Sinn Fein have now, someone in a police cell

but you don't have the arrests of the Bloody Sunday soldiers.

Paramilitary prisoners were released after two years... We have seen no

action against somebody accused of the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a

one-way street. We have the decommissioning of IRA weapons by

the IRA, therefore destroying crucial evidence. You have these

inconsistencies because you don't have an mechanism for dealing with

the past, but doing that is really difficult because of the pain of

real people. Don't you get a feeling that here in London they are hoping

he will not be charged? Definitely because it would be nice if

everything went away, but the civil case of the family is taken out of

the hands of the police. You can see here a real failure in Westminster

to see this as anything other than settled. David Cameron we know sees

himself as a chairman. I was speaking to a friend in Northern

Ireland who said he has never met Gerry Adams and I think this is very

revealing. They consider this as a settled issue that will not trouble

Westminster again. It would be, but the relatives of the disappeared

don't want it to be settled. This points to the reality that the

Belfast agreement probably had to be done, but the moral price at which

it was purchased was far greater than we were willing to admit during

the euphoria. For a country that prides itself by the rule of law to

tolerate the early release of prisoners and former pal and

military -- paramilitaries, I think was a very serious matter. As for

the PSNI, it only exists because its predecessor failed to command the

confidence of the nationalist community. It is a very big deal if

even the PSNI ends up falling into the same trap. We have to is leave

it there I'm afraid. It was the Conservative's local election

campaign launch on Friday, and what did David Cameron focus on? Burning

local issues like the state of our roads, rubbish collection or care of

the elderly? No. It was Europe. The Prime Minister re-iterated again his

promise of an in-out referendum on our membership of the EU in 2017.

And it's being reported this morning that he will share a platform with

Nigel Farage in a pre-general election debate. Here's what the

UKIP election debate. Here's what the

issue when he was on the Marr election debate. Here's what the

invite Nigel. My main desire is that the debates go ahead. We are joined

now by Grant Shapps. local councils? Both are important.

The local elections are critically important for people, their local

services. It is easy to forget, for example, that the council tax has

been largely frozen since this Government came to power, a big

contrast to Dublin under the previous Labour government. So why

did you go on and on about Europe? Let me show you the poster used to

launch your local election campaign. There it is, and in-out referendum

on Europe, the day of the local elections, where is the word local?

Is it in small print? I hear what you're saying, I am happy to be here

to talk about the local elections. But you are right, they are on the

same day, and not many people know that only by voting conservative can

you get an in-out referendum. -- Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver,

we can, it is the same date, so people... This was the launch of the

local election campaign. Why does the Prime Minister have to keep on

promising something he has already promised? The actual referendum

would be in 2017. He promised it before, he keeps repeating it

because he knows people don't really trust him. I think it is a question

of the fact that, actually, unless you remind people that the pledges

there, that the only way to get an in-out referendum is to vote for

it, this is a critical moment at which we need people to vote for

that referendum if they want it. It is not the case, as I saw this

morning, being said by Nigel Farage, that a referendum was promised

before and not delivered. There was no referendum in the last manifesto.

There will be in the next one. There was a cast-iron guarantee, in the

Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In

the Sun article, he said, we will have a referendum on the Lisbon

Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty had been passed before the general

election, it is difficult to have a referendum on something in the past.

We joined Europe in the 1970s, having a referendum on that! Look,

that is about the future. Our relationship with Europe is

absolutely critical. Most people in this country feel, I was not old

enough to vote in that referendum, most of those who voted, they voted

for a Common Market, that is not what we have got. We want to

continue the work we have been doing in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do?

They voted against it. We want more of those powers brought home, and we

will put it to a referendum, and people will have to vote

Conservative to get it. We have been looking at new research, almost two

thirds of Conservative members are considering voting for UKIP, almost

two thirds. I have a simple message here, which is this. If you vote for

UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are likely, 30% are possible. That is

why it is important we are making these arguments. If you vote for

UKIP, you are voting to take us further away from returning powers

to this country, further from a referendum. It is support for Ed

Miliband becoming Prime Minister, and he will do exactly what Labour

have always done - hand away powers, and away the rebate for nothing in

return, giving Europe even more so over the day-to-day affairs in

Britain. Why are so many people considering voting UKIP? It is to

hold your feet to the fire, they do not trust you on a referendum, so

they will vote UKIP to force you to tap in your line. We have a very

tough line. If I had said four years ago that this government would

manage to cut the overall EU budget, would take us out of the

bailout fund that Labour got us into, passing a law that no more

powers can go to Europe without a referendum, if I had said that,

people would say, I do not believe it will happen. Not only have we

done these things, we are promising and in-out referendum, and the only

way to get it is to vote Conservative. Nigel Farage has

said, we can't change anything in Europe, and it is no wonder that the

president of the European Commission has said, we love having these UKIP

MEPs, because they don't turn up and vote, apart from when they vote

against the cut in the budget. It goes beyond UKIP in your party,

because this research also showed that those Conservative members most

likely to vote for UKIP, they said they do not feel valued or respected

by their own leadership, and they regard David Cameron as ideological

eat more remote from them than UKIP. What I would say is look at that

list... Let me take that step further. What people need our series

solutions to serious problems. When people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will

say, which one of the 40% of the MEPs who got in for UKIP last time

are you voting for, the ones above left or defected, the ones have gone

to jail? 40% have ended up not delivering. People have a right to

know what to expect when they vote in these elections. They can look at

our record at home, and this goes to the point you have raised about what

we have done in Britain to get this economy back on track, recover from

Labour's recession. We are prepared to take those decisions in Europe as

well. Presumably, active Conservative members, they know

that, so why do they not feel valued by the leadership? I spend time

going up and down the country meeting Conservative members, and

they are on the doorstep, last weekend 150 out in Enfield

campaigning for the European and local elections... Why are they keen

on UKIP? When I meet somebody who says that, not necessarily a

member... Have you met members of say they will vote UKIP? No, but a

vote for UKIP is... Do not do it, you will end up with Labour having

more control, handing away powers to Europe. 51-year-old meeting members

who say they will vote UKIP, you must be out of touch. -- if you are

not meeting members. Some of your members are thinking of voting UKIP.

I spend huge amount of time travelling around, I just told you

about this action day in Enfield, where we had an enormous turnout.

Those members were on the doorsteps pointing out that you can only get

reform in Europe by voting Conservative. Labour and the Lib

Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't, Conservatives will. You have not got

that message across, because a YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who

has the best policies? Tories 18%, Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the

economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP 4. Why don't you shut up about

Europe and talk about the economy? Look, on the 27th of May, we have

European elections, as well as local elections. If I don't talk about the

European elections, you would say what you said at the beginning about

not talking about the local elections! These are serious

elections, and the point I am tried to make is that the issues at stake

are not peripheral, they are not unimportant. Our MEPs have been

battling to cut red tape from a European level on small businesses,

the same thing this government has been doing for small businesses

domestic league, where for example every small business owner watching

this show knows they have got ?2000 back in employment announced on

national insurance contributions. We are doing it at home, we are doing

it in Europe, and it is important to tie that together. Ireland that Mr

Cameron saying, you should stop banging on about Europe... -- I

remember. This is before the last general election, as in days for the

Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't win the election, and now you are

only three or four points ahead, it doesn't look good for you, does it?

Even then, the poll did not turn out to be what it was on the day. No,

that is what happens, that is the voting intentions now! You are in a

worse position than a year before the last election, which you didn't

win. We are almost proving the point that you can take a clip at any

moment in time, not sounding like a politician, but the only poll that

matters is on the day. In just over a year's time, people will have a

completely different picture to look at than these opinion polls. We have

an economy from being a basket case, the great Labour recession

knocking 7% of this economy, hurting every family, to a point where we

the fastest-growing economy in the developed world. In a year's time, I

hope people will see that we are the people who've taken the difficult

decisions, got the economy to the right place, more security for you

and your family. Do not give the car keys back to the people who crashed

it in the first place. If I had a pound for every time I have heard

that! It is clearly not getting through. On the Pfizer attempted of

AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this morning for a tougher public

interest test such big takeovers. Do you agree with that or not? Let me

be absolutely clear, if there is any kind of joining, we are in favour of

British jobs, British aren't deep, expanding our pharmaceutical sector.

-- R But what Mr Mallon and wants to do with rent caps, he is

anti-business. -- Mr Miliband. He wants to take us back to the bad old

those. -- bad old days. Should there be a bigger public interest test? We

have seen some takeovers that people have criticised, but others, like

Bentley, Land Rover, which have been very successful. Should there be a

tougher test?! We will have tests that ensured this get-together

becomes a great Anglo-American project, or it doesn't happen, but

the Miliband approach is simply to be anti-business, anti-jobs and

anti-job security. Grant Shapps, thank you.

A challenging week for the Liberal Democrats with a local election

campaign overshadowed by another row with the Conservatives about knife

crime. Adam has spent the day with Nick Clegg on the campaign trail.

How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on a political mini break to the

Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the train. He wants to highlight what

his party is doing in local government, and a personal passion

of his in Europe. Graham Watson, the Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has

been running a campaign to have prunes recognised as a laxative. Is

that Lib Dems battling for Britain in Europe? It is not our front page

manifesto commitment! It is one of many things that Graham does, he

does many other things. In fact, he is a good example of an MEP who took

a pioneering role, for instance, in making sure... There is the proven

world, but also the crime-fighting role. -- prune. He has done work to

make sure that when British criminals flee justice, we can bring

them back. And he has promoted prunes! First stop, a gorgeous

country pub, but it turns out everyone is a journalist or a very

on message activist. Dark days, being a Lib Dem in the last few

years? Strangely not. If you find you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do

not get that disheartened, because you know that, locally, you are

doing so well for the people that you live next door to that,

actually, I find I am almost impervious to what happens on a

national level. I am mayor of Cirencester. Have you taken any

leadership lessons from Nick Clegg, inspiring new in your leadership of

Cirencester? I think what he has demonstrated his patience. It has

been a tough time, he has taken a lot of flak, and as the mayor of a

town, lots of people agree with you and a fair few don't. You are a full

on mayor, he is just a Deputy Prime Minister, do you outrank him? I

don't think so, he is in government, I am not. So our there any normal

people in here? We are from Swindon, you cannot get more

abnormal. Are you a big fan of his? No! What has he done wrong? I don't

believe in his views at all. Where has he got to? Nigel Farage would

have had a pint! At this time in the morning a copy was more appropriate.

I have no time for a drink of any kind, because now we are off to look

at a local traffic blackspot. This is amazing, like a Lib Dem election

leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems pointing at a road. High-vis

jackets! Next we had to giggle full bath, but there will be no Regency

sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is taking us to an abandoned

wilderness. We have just had a health and safety briefing, we have

been told to look out for dive-bombing seagulls and an angry

fox. That is the sort of thing Nick Clegg has to put up with. He wants

to talk about the economy but he has to dodge the day's beat new story,

letters leaked by a Tory suggesting that Lib Dems are soft on knife

crime. Isn't that a new kind of warfare? I just think it is silly.

They may think they are clever by catching some headlines but they are

not helping people who worry about knife crime, like I do. We work

together... Just like the Coalition! This is a co-working

space where different businesses share the same office. My time with

the Deputy Prime Minister is drawing to a close. We haven't talked about

the most important story of the week, that you were voted the best

looking party leader and the most likely to be a good cook. Right,

this is news to me and I can guarantee you that my scepticism of

opinion polls has just been confirmed. Just as well because the

more serious polls don't look great for him or his party. Goodbye, and

thanks for the offer of a ride home!

He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce joins us now. According to Lib Dem

briefing documents, you are likely to choose -- lose a big chunk of

your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what would that say about a party that

boasts of its pro-Europe credentials? It would be

disappointing because we have the most hard-working MEPs. The worry

that we have is that people think the European Parliament is not

important but it takes decisions that affect us. They would be

disappointing for Britain as well as the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the

problem that the more you bang on about your pro-European credentials,

the more you slip in the polls? I do think so, we have two weeks to go

and we are campaigning extremely hard. You are forced in the polls. I

can tell you there are people out there who do believe Britain should

stay in the EU and they are worried that other parties will take us out.

The Liberal Democrats are clear, we want to stay in, we will work for

reform and do it effectively. If you lose the Liberal Democrats,

Britain's influence in Europe will be weakened. Your track record in

Europe shows you have been spectacularly wrong again and again.

In your 2009 manifesto you said the European Central Bank and the euro

have been tried and tested over ten years providing a clear picture of

the benefits of Eurozone membership and that proved to be nonsense. It

was nonsense everywhere. Every developed bank in the world was

tried and tested and failed. Europe may not be perfect, but the question

people have to decide is if we are going to leave Europe and be

isolated on RM, or use our influence to reform it from inside. We have

allies, you work with them, that is something the Lib Dems do better

than any other parties. Your 2004 manifesto, you claim that being

outside the euro would lead to job losses and reduced prosperity. You

were just plain wrong, weren't you? Yes, but the reason is that to some

extent the euro did not observe any rules and regulations when it was

set up. That is why we never recommended Britain should join at

the outset because the criteria had not been met. In 2001 Nick Clegg was

writing to the Financial Times... Your track record is important. He

wrote that the Tisch monetary policy is not all it is cracked up to be.

Britain would gain greater control over its affairs by joining the

euro. How wrong can he be? We have always argued that the currency had

to abide by strict criteria. It hasn't done so and that is one of

the reasons it has failed. We recognise there is no future for

Britain joining the euro and we are not advocating it. Lets put your

2010 manifesto on the screen. I didn't say it was not our long-term

interest. If Europe succeeds as an entity, if the euro becomes one of

the world leading currencies, there will come a point when it may be

justified. In the circumstances we are in the moment, there is no

recommended timescale. Let's get this right. Despite the Eurozone

crisis which has cost millions of jobs, countries that were teetering

on the brink of bankruptcy, the Eurozone now facing stagnation and

some countries on the brink of deflation, you still won't rule out

Britain joining? We are ruling it out in the foreseeable future. You

can miss the point that we are working as a coalition partner in

government that has secured recovery for the UK, and working as Liberal

Democrats in the parliament that have cut back the European budget in

cooperation with others. What would the world look like if it were right

for Britain to join the euro? You have 27 states at the moment, with

too many countries still struggling to meet the criteria so until you

have a strong and cohesive enough single Eurozone in which all the

countries can meet that criteria, Britain is better off out. So a more

centralised Eurozone, that is what you would like Britain to join? No,

because it can only happen by consent. Any circumstances in which

any further powers would be transferred from the UK to the EU,

we would support a referendum. You have just said that for the Eurozone

to work, it has to be more centralised and you said if that

happens, that is what Britain would join. I didn't say that, I said it

would require the consent of all member states to agree to the

criteria. We certainly do not envisage joining in the foreseeable

future. Since you are the proud party of in, why weren't you just

give us a referendum on in or out? Because it has to have a context.

What David Cameron is doing is dangerous because I think the major

players like Britain and France are not keen on the idea of being

bullied into reforms on the instigation of just one member state

which is threatening possibility to withdraw. They will have to agree to

rules... Just have it now. Do you want in or out? To have a referendum

against no background is to put it out of context. We are in the middle

of a crisis, out of context. We are in the middle

is a sign of success. It is in our interest is the Eurozone succeeds

and recovers and we should be part of it but not necessarily on the

same conditions as everyone else. The Liberal Democrats work with

others to deliver Britain's interests and if they are not there,

their interests will be undermined. You are watching Sunday Politics. We

say goodbye to viewers in like Liverpool and Manchester

transformed by European investment. We have seen coastal towns like

Blackpool being transformed by European investment. In the North

West, Europe matters. Sajj?

Well most people who are going out to vote UKIP are doing it because of

what our relationship with Europe is as a country. But there is nothing

UKIP can do to deliver a referendum for the people of the UK. And they

do nothing in the European Parliament anyway. It matters not a

jot how many UKIP MPs you elect to the European Union. But it affects

us as a country and it harms our national standing.

We will have UKIP on next week to answer some of that.

Well, if you're elected you will have to get used to plenty of

commuting ` which brings us onto high speed rail. No shortage of such

railway lines on the continent of course, but it's much more

contentious here. This week MPs voted to press ahead with the line

which should eventually link Manchester to London. But as Elaine

Dunkley reports, not everybody's on board.

Stop HS2! Outside the House of Commons there

were protests. Listen to us in that big House over

there! Order! Order!

Iinside, a rebellion of MPs voting in favour of an amendment that could

wreck the current plans for HS2. The Conservative MP for Altrincham

Sale West, Graham Brady, was part of the rebellion, along with the

Conservative MP for Bury North David Nuttall. The Labour MP for

Birkenhead, Frank Field, remains to be convinced it's money well spent.

Wouldn't the North gain more from a major link between Liverpool and

Hull rather than worrying about coming into London?

HS2 is a tricky party vs constituency dilemma, Stephen

O'Brian, the Conservative MP for Eddisbury in Cheshire, abstained

from voting for a number of reasons. Engineering integrity costs,

environmental protections of habitat, ancient forestry, wildlife,

watercourses, noise, safety, and not least, full as well as fair

compensation. 33 Conservative MPs rebelled against

the blueprint for the high`speed line but the Government enjoyed a

comfortable victory as the Bill for the ?50bn scheme passed with 452 to

41 votes. I think this bill, and the building

of a high`speed rail link from North to South is a once in a generation

opportunity for the North to mirror the growth which London is seeing.

It's not great for the North West. It simply going to suck talent from

the North West to the South East. Those who did vote against their

constituents wishes will have to start thinking very hard about how

they will deal with the general election because voting the wrong

way on HS2 is a vote loser. The ayes have it!

Whilst the HS2 has past its second reading, the bill will undergo many

more hours of detailed scrutiny as it continues its passage through

Parliament. What do you think, Sajj, is this the

best way to support the North West economy?

It certainly ensures that the North West is much better connected in a

way that we need to make sure that we bring ourselves up to standard. I

find that the connectivity I see when I am in Europe is something

we're lagging behind in here. Not to speak of the progress they have made

in places like China and Japan. Quite clearly, we as an economy in

the North West suffer because we do not have this sort of connectivity

available to us. So why do you oppose it, Peter?

What is the best use of money? For a high`speed rail line that is going

to be used by business service users, who are the only people who

will be able to afford it? Or do we really need to be investing in bus

services, local train services, connecting up places like

Skelmersdale, who have not had a train station...

We don't know how much it will cost, do we?

Somewhere between 50 and ?80 billion.

No. ?50 billion is the top whack. What I mean is they do not know the

price tickets will be. So when you say people cannot afford it, we do

not actually know that. If you imagine who that is being

targeted at and marketed that, it is business travellers. I would say we

need to spend money on local services and make those more

affordable for people. Local train services for places that have been

cut off and were promised train stations years ago. I agree with a

lot of what Frank Field said there. Let's connect up the West and the

East. That is a more important transport investment here in the

North West. The point is we need to do both. The

real danger is that we are going to run out of capacity on the West

Coast mainline. Already, we have 14% of passengers during peak hours in

Manchester standing. What we need is electrification from Liverpool to

Manchester and then Manchester to Leeds. And we need HS2. That would

have an impact on the North West economy of ?51 billion.

So you think that one of the benefit here is that it is not just about

faster trains, but it will actually boost the regional economy?

Absolutely critical. It is about capacity, about making sure that the

major cities of the North West can trade internationally. And it is

making sure that we retain jobs and talent in the North West region.

Research from other areas in Europe where there have been rail links

indicate that there is no risk that the effect would suck money out of

the North West. The Greens are saying that HS2 is wrong, the money

could be better invested elsewhere. Your parties agree on this and it

will be pushed through. But we will oppose it with everything we can. It

is the wrong decision. The Bottom Line is that Peter

represents a party that opposes growth per se. It does not recognise

economic growth as necessarily being a good thing. In the real world, we

know that those of us who have to make these decisions were people's

lives will be impacted, but without growth you simply are holding people

back. We cannot allow that to happen.

Growth means growth in debt. And we're talking about consumer debt in

Europe being 110% of European GDP. What is good growth? Growth that has

led to huge levels of debt is bad. We need to see growth in things like

renewable industries and sustainable transport. Not all growth is good.

But also growth in things like creative and digital industries.

Look at how that has transformed Salford where we are sitting now. It

is essential we have investment in growth sectors in the region. But

that our region is connected both to London and to international

marketplaces. Do you think the Government was

wrong to reduce the amount of EU support going to Merseyside?

Absolutely. Let's just deal with one thing at a time. First of all, in

terms of EU funding coming to the UK, there has had to be a complete

overhaul of the support we were getting from the EU poster large and

that to race. Secondly, when it comes to the extent of funds coming

in, looking at Liverpool, you can see`tacitly well it has done out of

EU support. So by reducing? To try and represent

that, in a way that Liverpool has not benefited is misleading. You

must bear in mind the overall extent of EU funds and where they are being

applied has been redistributed across the EU as a whole.

But why did your MEPs vote against measures to cap bankers bonuses and

stop tax evasion? No. That would have freed up

1`trillionth euros through investment across Europe. And also,

why did your MEPs vote against the youth jobs guarantee fund which can

give training... This is typical Labour Party politics of trying to

confuse issues. Bit is your voting record. As far as our voting record

is concerned, we will defend export into the European Union every step

of the way. The Labour Party has failed with its MEPs to defend our

national interests. We will defend our market.

Well you can already use high`speed rail to get from London to Brussels

` my guests are hoping to be regular commuters. Voting for the European

Elections is on May 22nd. The North West of England elects eight of the

UK's 73 Euro MPs by a form of proportional representation and each

represents the entire region. Five years ago the Conservatives got

almost 26% of the vote, winning three seats. Labour with 20% won two

seats. And UKIP polled just under 16%, just missing out on a second

MEP. The Lib Dems and the BNP won one seat each ` narrowly holding off

a challenge from the Greens. But do the voters know what they'll be

doing once they're elected? Our reporter Euan Doak took two of BBC

Radio Manchester's listeners, Frank and Eileen, across to Brussels to

find out. Brussels, capital of Belgium, famous

for chocolate, and a statue of a little boy spending a penny. And

important because it's the home of the European Union, which critics

say spends too many of ours. And Frank Baker and Eileen Maxwell are

here to find out what goes on. I have absolutely no idea what the

European Parliament looks like or what it does.

While back in England, the politicians from Brussels are on the

campaign trail. This is my raw material that has

come from the shredding site. More than 40,000 people work at the

European Commission, the Parliament and the Council of Europe.

Most of us do not know what our European MPs do. So we're hoping to

find out today. When we vote on the 22nd of May,

those chosen will take their seats here in the European parliament. In

the first of their radio interviews, Frank and Eileen spoke to Arlene

McCarthy, who has been an MEP for 20 years and is now standing down.

The committees are aware that we make this legislation against the

people that are operating scams, for example, who are ripping people off.

I have done a lot of legislation around bankers' bonuses, which I

know is a big issue for the public. Very much so!

We really are working hard on our committees and then we vote in

Strasbourg on those issues. That is the European Parliament

building. But Brussels is about much more than that. There is the Council

of Ministers, the heads of the 28 States who are in town today. And

then there is the European Commission, which is where we are

heading next. Back in England, one of the three

candidates to succeed Jose Manuel Barroso as President of the

Commission, where EU laws are first proposed, is the former Belgian

Prime Minister. My congratulations because this is a

step in the right direction. And I shall open it.

Guy Verhofstadt is visiting a factory which recycles cars in line

with EU rules. Having some common rules across the

community does actually help us. I do not bind the rules to be

particularly onerous. We buy equipment with safety guards on it

and it makes it easier when I am specifying it. I would rather we had

a European standard than UK standard.

Back in Brussles, among the post boxes and works of art, Frank and

Eileen meet a rival for the presidency, who says the EU needs to

be more democratic. Should it always be the heads of

state who are deciding about the well`being of people? Or should we

not rather have a more democratic process involving the parliament but

also the citizens and the people who live inside the European Union? One

of the EU's more popular institutions is Geoff Meade, a Press

Association reporter here for 35 years. He arrived before Mrs

Thatcher was Prime Minister and says even then the monthly trip to

Strasbourg didn't make sense. All the officials from 28 countries

who are based here, have to go down there with all the documents. Trucks

go up and down the motorway delivering new documents every day

the Parliament is sitting in Strasbourg. It is completely and

utterly stupid. Across Europe, that criticism of the

bureaucracy means anti`EU parties are polling well. After putting his

vision to politics students at the University of Manchester, Guy

Verhofsdadt moved on to Stockport and then Salford to explain why he

thinks UKIP and the rest are wrong. The world of tomorrow shall be a

network of big empires. China, India, the US, Russia, Brazil, and

so forth. We need to be strong in that competition and to be strong we

need each other. We need a strong European Union.

Those external pressures are already having an impact on Europe. Outside

the commission, Arseny Yatsenyuk, the new Prime Minister of Ukraine,

has arrived to discuss the situation in Crimea and the east of his

country. From debates, laws, directives and international

relations, Frank and Eileen have seen a snapshot of the European

Union at work. We have been given a fair picture

and what we have seen is a very positive outcome from today.

I understand more now. You do, don't you?

I do. I understand the reasons that we are

in Europe. There is room for improvement, but that will come with

time. Frank and Eileen can have their say

at the ballot box in just under three weeks.

Do you accept that the EU is simply not connected properly to voters?

I think we have to get our message across more clearly to voters. I

think in the North West that message is being understood.

Where is the evidence of that? When we are on the doorstep, people

understand what Europe means in terms of employment rights,

directing investment to rural communities and cities. Over half a

million jobs in the North West depend on trade with the citizens of

the European Union. 3.5 million jobs in the UK are dependent on our

relationship with the EU. UKIP is not doing so well in the North West

because we are getting the message across about what they actually

stand for. Privatisation of the NHS, having maternity pay.

So talking about reconnecting, let's ask our MEP. You have been there for

many years. Why did leave MEP 's vote against greater powers for the

British Parliament in terms of legislation, why did they vote

against the exclusion of micro`enterprises from EU

legislation unless the benefits outweigh the burdens. And you sat

with UKIP voting the way you did then. How do you explain that?

We did not vote with UKIP. You did in this instance.

What is your in/out referendum all about? They are burdened by

unnecessary regulations. Why did you...

Let's speak to Peter. Is there a problem in terms of Europe not being

connected to voters? Voters do not know who their Euro MP is. Research

has been done. More needs to be done to connect politics generally with

voters. It is really off`putting when we have these arguments with

each other. The Green Party brings a message of hope. This election

campaign has been dominated by anti`immigrant policy and we want to

make a positive difference and bring positive policies.

But have you not simply attacked UKIP? We will challenge UKIP. We

will not leave those claims that the make and challenged.

Absolutely. We're on target to what we want to achieve which is two

treble hour number of Euro MPs. But what is important is that this will

set a context for the general election. People are voting now and

if the only story of this election is UKIP, UKIP, you then that will be

the contexts of the general election. If the Green Party does

well, that will influence the debate. There is need for reform.

Absolutely we must reform the EU and review our relationship with the EU

and ultimately trust the British people by giving them a referendum

and letting them have their say. When it comes to the referendum,

UKIP cannot give people a say. And the other two main parties will not

give people a say. We are the only people in a position to allow people

to have their say. But have you not gone from being a

Lib Dem to being a sceptical Tory? I am pro`United Kingdom. We need to

have a strong United Kingdom seeking leadership in Europe. We cannot do

that without taking people with us. When you four decades of progress

without allowing for a proper debate on the EU...

So you would put a sign over the North West saying we are not open

for business? We have not done that!

And then you would threaten major manufacturers, such as Mira space,

Jaguar Land Rover... If we can just settle down. It is about offering

alternatives to the public the Green Party is putting forward a clear

agenda. We want Trident not to be renewed. That is a huge waste of

money. There are policies in our manifesto...

Let's find out what else has been happening in North West politics

this week in 60 Seconds. An independent inquiry's been set up

to investigate whether Rochdale Council failed to act over child

abuse, including alleged abuse by the town's late MP Sir Cyril Smith.

The family of the murdered soldier Lee Rigby were said to be

"heartbroken" about his name being used by a Far Right political party.

"Britain First" will use his name in next month's European elections. An

investigation's under way into how the electoral commission gave

permission. Universal Credit's to be rolled out

across the North West despite high rent arrears after the pilot scheme.

We are just not seeing the money coming from the tenants or from the

DWP. The Conservative Party welcomed back

The Ribble Valley MP Nigel Evans after he was cleared of sexual

offences. He had been sitting as an independent.

And Liverpool City Council's in talks with Everton Football Club

about plans for a new 50,000`seat stadium. It could be less than a

mile from their Goodison Park home. Before we go let me tell you there

are a total of 11 parties fielding European candidates in the North

West. There's a full list on your screen and for more information on

the parties and who's standing for them you can go to the BBC Website.

That's at bbc.co.uk/politics. the parties and who's standing for

them you can And next week we'll be speaking to candidates from the

Liberal Democrats, the British National Party and the UK

Independence Party. For now, it just remains to thank my

guests, Theresa Griffin, Sajj Karim and Peter Cranie. And now I'll hand

you back to Andrew Neil in London. on our website. That is all we have

got time for this week. Next week, London's local elections.

Welcome back. Now, the Government is not very good at predicting the

future. That's according to a report from a committee of MPs this morning

who say that its Horizon Scanning programme that's supposed to

identify potential threats, risks, emerging issues and opportunities

isn't much good at reading the tea leaves. But can it really be any

worse than our panel? Here they are predicting the future of then

culture secretary Maria Miller before Easter.

Can she survive? I'm getting out of the prediction game after I said

Nick Clegg would win the debates. But I almost think she might. If

there is a big event that moves this off the front pages. David Cameron

will want to keep Maria Miller until at least his summary shuffle. I

think they will get rid of her. I think they will do the decent thing

after exhausting all other options. Maria Miller resigned a few days

later of course! The best and the brightest, when did that slip in?

This week it will be exactly a year until the General Election, so what

better time to get our panel to gaze into their crystal balls again.

better time to get our panel to gaze What's the outcome of the

better time to get our panel to gaze only a snapshot of opinion now, you

think they will be the same in a year? No, I think they will narrow.

I think UKIP's vote share will fall. I think they are currently coasting

on a high and that will tailor way so they won't take as many votes off

the Tories. Labour with a majority or is the largest party. Another

liberal Conservative coalition, and I say that because he is already in

touching distance of Labour. I don't think UKIP will get 15, maybe half

of that, and most think UKIP will get 15, maybe half

might be testing the patience of the nation to tune into all of those. If

you're going to say Nigel Farage should be there, the Green party

should be too. They know that as soon as you put them on a podium

next to them, he looks like he has equal stature and that is a problem.

David Cameron does not want the debates to happen on the way they

happened last time. It is generally regarded, Lynton Crosby believes

they were a disaster for David Cameron because they allowed Nick

Clegg to be the fresh person. He knows he cannot say no to them so

the moment you see David Cameron suggesting that Caroline Lucas

should be in the debate, you know he is not serious. What he will try to

do is have more debates, have them outside the main part of the general

election so that it doesn't dominate. The problem the David

Cameron is that the campaign will be much longer. It is a five-week

campaign so it is quite difficult for him to say we will only have one

debate in that campaign. I think smother it with love, hopefully it

will go to the courts for him and hopefully they will never happen and

he will be delighted. The European election and the local elections are

coming up. The three mainstream parties are saying it is a flash in

the pan, they don't really matter and so on, but if UKIP comes a

strong first, if Labour comes a poor second and the Tories come a poor

third, it will have consequences for all three, and the Lib Dems come

forth or even fish. It will have consequences and not just in the

media but on the ground. One of the big stories is what will happen to

the Lib Dems, they face losing all of their MEPs. A good result for

them is lit -- in the local elections is losing 250 councillors.

These are the most interesting elections we have had for some

time. Are we heading for a Nick Clegg summer leadership crisis? I

think we are heading towards reversing the clock back to where we

were before the Eastleigh by-election. That quiet and things

down for Nick Clegg. If they lose all their MEPs, and there is a real

chance they will, Vince Cable will be out on manoeuvres because age is

not on his side. If he can say Nick Clegg is a loser and a failure, he

will be back. Will the Tories go into headless chicken mode if they

come third? Yes, if UKIP come first there will not be as much panic as

if Labour come first. Is Labour comes a poor second, will there be

some pressure on Ed Miliband to reopen his attitude to the

referendum? I don't think so and my colleague was talking to Labour

sources who said he is absolutely not going to. That is something you

can say definitely about him, he decides on a course and he sticks to

it. There is one potential upside for David Cameron in a really bad

Conservative results, it could strengthen his hand in the

renegotiations of Britain's EU membership because he doesn't even

need to say to Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande it is there. David

Cameron hasn't just been fighting for his party into the local

elections. He also got his knuckles wrapped by the Speaker, John Bercow,

at Prime Minister's Question Time, for talking for too long. Take a

look at this. There is a better future ahead of us but we must not

go backward to the policies that put us in this mess in the first place.

I don't know what they are paying him, Mr Speaker. Order, order. I

haven't finished! In response to that question, the Prime Minister

has finished and he can take it from me that he has finished. I can't

remember a speaker ever speaking to a Prime Minister like that. Clearly

in that case, John Bercow crossed a line. It is Prime Minister 's

questions, he is entitled to answer the questions. There is really bad

blood between those two, going back a long way. They hate each other and

the worrying thing about that was the look of triumphalism on the

speaker's face afterwards. He is a remarkable, revolutionary speaker

who has made the House of Commons more relevant, he is holding the

executive to account, but that look on his face showed he had crossed

the line. Does he survive after the next election? He has improved the

importance of the Commons, is that enough to keep him in the Speaker 's

chair? The most public bit of the Commons is still the Prime Minister

's questions, and we can conclude that John Bercow's interventions

take more time than any delays he complains about so I wouldn't be

surprised if, in a few years' time, someone else replaces him. He is

quite popular with Labour, is he not? Yes, he is married to a Labour

activist and is notably sympathetic to Labour but I think this is a

difficult situation. David Cameron also overstepped the line. As soon

as the speaker says order, the idea is that the House was to order and

David Cameron pushed him. They are both trying to score points off each

other. We cover Prime Minister 's questions every week on the daily

politics, and there is a danger that he sees it as an opportunity to do

some grandstanding. You slightly sends his vanity gets the better of

him. It is supposed to be Prime Minister 's questions. At the end of

that session, the Speaker read out a statement from the Chief clerk, and

immensely respected figure, saying he is taking early retirement. It is

pretty clear that the reason he has decided to go early is because he is

finding it tricky to maintain a cordial relationship with the

speaker, and the speaker might want to think about his man management

skills. That's all for today. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC

Two at lunchtime from Tuesday onwards. Remember, it is a bank

holiday tomorrow. I'll be back here at 11am next week. Remember - if

it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.