Browse content similar to 06/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week. | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 201 . | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head. | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about. | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the | :00:59. | :01:00. | |
Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future. | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling, | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
Do we still need a nuclear deterrent? | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
And disabled students on the benefit changes they say will | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
And with me throughout the show, three top-flight political | :01:20. | :01:34. | |
journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt, | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal. | :01:38. | :01:51. | |
The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring. | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier | :01:58. | :01:59. | |
handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out. | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this. | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea. | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the | :04:03. | :04:03. | |
United States making the allegations lives in the | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem | :04:10. | :04:10. | |
for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime | :04:21. | :04:21. | |
inrequest -- that inquiry took 2 years to report. The problem is the | :04:22. | :04:35. | |
dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it | :04:41. | :04:42. | |
is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is | :04:43. | :04:50. | |
inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after | :04:55. | :04:54. | |
that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by | :04:55. | :05:02. | |
that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require | :05:03. | :05:02. | |
resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
in what a public inquiry can do I wonder whether there is another | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
example of a country that goes through this stale ritual every few | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
years of a scandal emerging, the opposition calling for an inquiry, | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
the Government saying no and then holding the line or giving in. I | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
don't know what we think this inquiries can do. It comes back to | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
your point, Helen, you should be careful what you call an inquiry on | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
so it doesn't devalue the concept. On Thursday up to a million public | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
sector workers - including teachers, firemen and council workers - | :05:43. | :05:44. | |
will go on strike. Their unions have differing gripes | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
but the fact they're all striking on the same day is designed to send | :05:47. | :05:48. | |
a strong message to the government. As the economy picks up again | :05:49. | :05:50. | |
they're demanding an end Growth has returned strongly to | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
the UK economy and unemployment is at its lowest | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
level for more than five years. So why is there still talk | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
of austerity The deficit is coming down but much | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
more slowly than the government And accumulated deficits - | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
the national debt - The UK is now in hock to the tune | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
of ?1.3 trillion - and rising. In fact, we're only 40% of the way | :06:18. | :06:26. | |
through George Osborne's planned austerity, with the chancellor now | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
saying he won't manage to balance Unions are now rebelling | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
against tight pay controls. Since 2010, average public sector | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
pay, which goes to about 1 in 5 Over the same period, | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
prices increased by 16% - meaning the average public sector | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
worker saw their pay squeezed Going head-to-head on the public | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
sector strikes and austerity - the general secretary of the TUC | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
Frances O'Grady, and Conservative We have seen it, public sector pay | :07:01. | :07:20. | |
squeezed by 9% under the Coalition Government. Isn't it time to take | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
your foot off the brake a bit? I don't think it is the right time to | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
let go of the public finances at all. We were always clear that this | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
is what's called a structural deficit, it doesn't go away just | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
because the growth is returning and the economy is coming back. We have | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
protected and are protecting the lowest paid public sector workers | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
who weren't part of the pay freeze and now pay going up by 1%. These | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
are difficult decisions. We have had that discussion many times. They are | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
necessary in order to keep that plan on track and as we can see in the | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
wider economy, it is working. People's living standards will have | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
to continue to fall if you are in the public sector? We need to keep | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
public spending under control and pay restraint is one of the main | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
ways of being able... The answer is yes? The answer is this is | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
necessary. The answer is yes, this is necessary. It isn't because we | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
want to. We have to. This strike isn't going to change the | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
Government's mind, is it? It does seem like the Government isn't | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
listening. We have had years... They are listening, they just don't | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
agree. Ordinary people, including those in the public sector, are | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
finding it really tough. What really sticks in the throat is the idea | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
that money can be found to give tax cuts to billionaires, to | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
millionaires and to big corporations. But it can't be found | :08:47. | :08:54. | |
to help 500,000 workers in local government, dinner ladies, school | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
meal workers, lollipop men and women who are earning less than the living | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
wage. What do you say to that? We have protected those who are the | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
least well-paid in the public sector. But this is about a | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
long-term... How can you? Hold on. You have said you have protected | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
them. This involves ordinary people, many watching this programme, they | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
have had a 1% pay rise in some cases since 2010. The average gas bill is | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
costs up 16%, running a car 11% in what way have you protected people | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
from spending they have to make Firstly, you read out the average | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20 | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010, | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
the top than we did before 2010 partly because we have encouraged | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
them to invest. And this is a really important balance of making sure we | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
get the books back in order, we have stability for family finances and we | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
get the economy going. Why not spread the living wage? We know you | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
could pay for that pay increase itself if you spread the living wage | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
through the private sector and guarantee... The living wage being | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
above the minimum wage? Absolutely. ?7.65 in the rest of the country, | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
?8.80 in London. What is the answer? I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But | :10:47. | :10:56. | |
not for public sector workers. Being able to pay low-paid workers as much | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
as possible within the constraints of the public finances is something | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
I have pushed very hard. The evidence we can increase the minimum | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
wage has to be balanced which the Low Pay Commission do with the | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
impact on the number of jobs... Even after a pay freeze for quite a while | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
among public sector workers, they are still paid 15% on average more | :11:21. | :11:28. | |
than those in the private sector? That is not true. It is, according | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
to the ONS figures. I read that report this morning. If you look at | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
the whole package, what they are saying is public service workers are | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
worse off. Average earnings in the public sector are ?16.28 an hour | :11:44. | :11:52. | |
compared to ?14.16 private. You are comparing apples and pears. It's the | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
kind of jobs and the size of the workplace that people work in. They | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
are still overall on average better off? Lower paid workers tend to be | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
better off because unions negotiate better deals for lower paid workers. | :12:07. | :12:14. | |
They are more unionised in the pry private sector. The public sector is | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
worse off. This is a political strike, isn't it? There is a whole | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
disparate range of reasons. The strike is saying that you are | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
against this Government, that is what this is about? I this I what | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
firefighters, local government workers and health workers who are | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
protesting, too, alongside teachers are saying is that this Government | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
is not listening, it is out of touch, people can't carry on having | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
cuts in their living standards depending on benefits. When will the | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
public sector worker ever get a real increase in their pay under a | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
Conservative Government? Well, we certainly hope to have the books | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
balanced by 2018. Not before then? 2018 is when we hope to be able to | :12:59. | :13:00. | |
be in surplus. It is testament... be in surplus. It is testament. . | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018? | :13:07. | :13:14. | |
Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite | :13:59. | :14:09. | |
and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail | :14:20. | :14:21. | |
on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
planning a big crackdown on the unions over balloting, is that true? | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
Well, strikes like this... I know the cases, is it true you are going | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
to dhang the law? Strikes like this make that argument stronger. The | :14:37. | :14:38. | |
Conservative Party is make that argument stronger. The | :14:39. | :14:40. | |
on the basis is one that puts the matter of | :14:41. | :15:22. | |
independence to bed is one that puts the matter of | :15:23. | :16:28. | |
is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying | :16:45. | :16:52. | |
different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute | :17:01. | :17:08. | |
book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 1998, | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
people unified around a single proposition so there is history here | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers? | :17:28. | :17:29. | |
vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers I | :17:30. | :17:31. | |
would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do, | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment, | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK. | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic | :19:11. | :19:20. | |
arguments are dominating people's thinking, the polls show, that is | :19:21. | :19:38. | |
what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we | :20:02. | :20:08. | |
have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
years to get into Europe. I don't want that uncertainty or the | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union, | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to | :20:51. | :21:00. | |
stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no | :21:33. | :21:41. | |
vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
world of difference between devolution and further devolution | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
where you remain part of the UK There is a world of difference | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
between that and making a break where Scotland becomes a foreign | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with | :22:07. | :22:16. | |
pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know | :23:23. | :23:38. | |
about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the | :23:39. | :23:48. | |
leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us. | :24:05. | :24:13. | |
I think it is important in this debate that people from outside | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you. | :24:38. | :24:46. | |
I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon, | :24:47. | :24:48. | |
hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon next week on Sunday Politics. | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
Disastrous results in the European elections, it is fair to say the Lib | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
Dems are down in the doldrums. In a moment I will be speaking to Nick | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
Clegg, but first Emily has been asking what Lib Dems would say to | :25:11. | :25:25. | |
the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister on Call Clegg. Our phone in this | :25:26. | :25:34. | |
week is the challenges facing the Liberal Democrats. They are rock | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
bottom in the polls and have dire results in the local and European | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
elections so what can the party do to turn things around? Get in | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
touch, we are going straight to line one and Gareth. How much is a | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
problem of that loss of local support? It is a massive problem | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
because those are the building blocks of our success. The | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
councillors who gets the case work done are also the people who go out | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
and deliver the leaflets and knock on doors. Interesting, and it is not | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
just local support the party has lost, is it? In the next general | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
election there are some big-name Liberal Democrat MPs standing down | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
like Malcolm Bruce and Ming Campbell, how much of a problem will | :26:25. | :26:34. | |
that be? That is a real challenge and we have some of our brightest | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
and best reaching an age of maturity at the same moment so that is quite | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
an additional test in what will be a difficult election anyway. So how | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
does the party need to position itself to win back support? Let's | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
does the party need to position itself to win back support? Let s go | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
to Chris online free, has the party got its strategy right? There is | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
always a danger of appearing to be a party that merely dilutes Labour or | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
dilutes the Conservatives. We have a of is serious, positive messages and | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
we need to get those across in the next election because if we don t | :27:13. | :27:14. | |
next election because if we don't people will vote for the Tories | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years. | :27:42. | :28:09. | |
Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep. | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things. We | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
are going to finish with an old classic now. | :29:14. | :29:15. | |
# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it | :29:26. | :29:27. | |
mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything | :29:32. | :29:41. | |
it takes to uncover this and achieve justice. | :29:42. | :29:56. | |
delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents, | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home | :30:06. | :30:08. | |
Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered, | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen, | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195 | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that - and | :31:00. | :31:01. | |
that we need to make sure that and the police need to make sure that | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
the police investigations are thorough, well resourced. I can't | :31:05. | :31:06. | |
thorough, well resourced. I can t think of anything more horrendous, I | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting | :31:30. | :31:31. | |
authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
what other inquiries take place A number of other inquiries are taking | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already. | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
All I would say is that people who have information, who want to | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
parties who retain different identities, different values, have | :32:20. | :32:21. | |
different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal | :32:38. | :32:39. | |
Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why | :32:47. | :32:48. | |
aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we | :32:49. | :32:56. | |
spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK. | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a | :33:53. | :34:03. | |
constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties. | :34:27. | :34:27. | |
winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties It | :34:28. | :34:27. | |
Conservative and Labour parties. It is a big effort. Of course, there | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
are lots of people from both left and right who want to shout us down | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
and want to vilify our role in Government. What we also need to do | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
- and Nick Harvey was quite right - having been proud of our record of | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
delivery, we also need to set out in our manifesto as we are and as we | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
will our promise of more, of more support in schools. So why is it | :34:50. | :34:57. | |
then... Why is it then that a Lib Dem MP in our own film says you are | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
in danger of no longer becoming a National Party. That could be the | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
Clegg legacy, you cease to be a National Party? I'm a practical man. | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
I believe passionately in what we have done in politics. I am so proud | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
of my party. I don't spend that much time speculating that the end might | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
be nigh. There is no point in doing that. Let's get out there, which is | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
what I do in my own constituency, in challenges circumstances and say we | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
are proud of what we have done, we have done a good thing for the | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
country, we have delivered more Liberal Democrat policies than the | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
party has ever dreamed delivering before. We have a programme of | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
change, of reform, of liberal reform, which is very exciting. Just | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
over the last few weeks, I have been setting out our plans to provide | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
more help to carers, to make sure teachers in every classroom are | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
properly qualified, that all kids in school are being taught a proper | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
core curriculum. That parts company from the ideological rigidities with | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
which the Conservatives deal with education policy. Those are thing | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
which speak to many of the values that people who support us... | :36:06. | :36:12. | |
Alright. When Mike Storey gets out and about, he told this programme | :36:13. | :36:19. | |
two weeks' ago that he finds that you "are toxic on the doorstep". | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
you "are toxic on the doorstep" Look, as everybody knows, being the | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say | :36:47. | :36:47. | |
that I'm stopping from right and left. The right say | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
win the election. The left say from right and left. The right say | :36:54. | :37:17. | |
proudly. Is it your intention to fight the next election against an | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
in-out referendum on Europe? Yes. Unless there is major treaty change? | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
Our position hasn't waivered, it won't waiver, we are not going to | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
flip-flop on the issue of the referendum like the Conservatives | :37:34. | :37:34. | |
did. We want an in-out referendum. referendum like the Conservatives | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
when that will happen, when in u powers are transferred to the | :37:41. | :37:41. | |
European Union. That is what we It's just gone 11.35, you're | :37:42. | :39:01. | |
watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. | :39:08. | :39:09. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week | :39:10. | :39:17. | |
Disabled students on the benefit changes they say will | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
I dread to think of the lives that will be rtined | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
by students not having enough money to purchase the equipment to come | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
Let?s welcome my guests this week, the Conservative MP for Lancaster | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
and Fleetwood, Eric Ollerenshaw and Andrew Miller, the Labour MP | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
Over the last few weeks the political parties have been | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
falling over themselves to support the North of England. | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
The Chancellor announced extra funding for transport and science | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
And Labour offered more political power to the regions. | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
The way we solve these questions I am talking about is with local | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
people making local decisions with local businesses about how | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
their area can grow, prosper and create the jobs of the future. | :40:11. | :40:18. | |
Andrew, it feels a bit like a competition, here, to see who can | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
It is blindingly obvious thd power has to come out of the centre. | :40:22. | :40:29. | |
It is in the interests of the national economy to have | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
more resource and decision making in the regions. | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
And, here in the north`west, we have got enormous assets at our disposal. | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
I have just helped the North`West Business Leaders Team work on the | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
It has taken the political parties a long time to wake up to that. | :40:50. | :40:57. | |
Some of us have been arguing that for a very long time | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
and I am pleased to see that the region is being recognised | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
as a potential powerhouse that can transform the economy, not just | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
Is there a distinction, Eric, between what | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
We coined a phrase called 'localism' back in 2010. | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
I think Miliband is now playing catch`up with what we have been | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
trying to do in terms of investment and infrastructure | :41:22. | :41:23. | |
We are getting a link road that was promised 35 years ago, | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
but the coalition government has now spent the money and the diggers are | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
It is just called catch`up and rebalancing the north`south divide | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
which actually got wider under the 35 years of the Labour Party, so | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
That is a bit like claiming credit for the second Mersey crosshng. | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
It was actually a Labour decision that is being reinforced | :41:45. | :41:46. | |
I think there is a long gestation here and we need to | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
And we ought to be working cooperatively in the interests | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
A group of former ministers, diplomats and generals said | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
replacing the Trident nuclear deterrent is crucial to prevent the | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
But exactly what will replace it and when is still open to qtestion. | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
And that could have an impact on jobs in Barrow, | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
For the last 40 years there has been at least one nuclear armed submarine | :42:16. | :42:24. | |
And after three years of research, the cross`party Trident Commission | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
found that Britain should keep its independent nuclear detdrrent. | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
But the committee of former ministers, diplomats and generals | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
were split over how many submarines should be built here in Barrow, | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
and argue there could be advantages to delaying the renewal programme. | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
The Conservative members believe in a like`for`like replacement | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
It does if you want to be certain that you | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
actually have a submarine available whenever you might need it, | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
365 days a year, every week of the year for the next 40 years, which is | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
The report asks for greater collaboration with the US and France | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
and the Liberal Democrats believe that would mean the deterrent would | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
I would like to see the boats reduced from four to three. | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
I would like the weapons system modifying, | :43:17. | :43:18. | |
not to be a Trident missile but to be a cheaper Cruise missile | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
I think that would be just as effective as the four bo`ts with | :43:23. | :43:29. | |
the Trident missiles and it would save the country billions of pounds | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
that we could spend on other things that the country desperatelx needs. | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
The cost of replacing the four boats is put at ?20 billion. | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
Reducing that number, or delaying the decision beyond | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
2016, would have a dramatic impact on Barrow but not the overall cost | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
Every time, as a country, we decide to build a new nuclear | :43:48. | :43:55. | |
When you have a programme lhke this, by the time you get to building | :43:56. | :44:06. | |
the fourth boat, the costs are coming down anyway. | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
In March, the government announced ?300 million to upgrade the Barrow | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
A decision won't be taken until 2016 at the earliest. | :44:13. | :44:21. | |
And we're also joined now by Tom Crone, one of the Green Party's | :44:22. | :44:24. | |
two newly`elected councillors in Liverpool. | :44:25. | :44:25. | |
Why do you want to disarm in terms of nuclear weapons | :44:26. | :44:32. | |
The Green Party has always been opposed to nuclear weapons in | :44:33. | :44:40. | |
Britain but, in the 21st Century, with the change in threats the | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
country is facing, it is quite clear that for most of the realistic | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
threats we face nuclear weapons are not a realistic deterrent | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
and can?t be used to solve lany of those problems. | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
We are constantly being told that it is essential to replace Trident | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
but countries such as Spain, Germany, Italy ? most other | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
European countries ? are dohng fine without any nuclear weapons. | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
They are able to spend that money, instead, on public services. | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
That?s what, as a councillor, I would like to see. | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
I?m constantly being approached by people worried that their | :45:15. | :45:16. | |
libraries, their sports centres are under threat of closure and I think | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
politicians should be standhng up for those issues rather than | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
investing lots of taxpayers' money on | :45:24. | :45:25. | |
a new weapons system. But they would be worried if nuclear bombs started | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
And I do not think that is one of the immediate threats we ard facing. | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
The threats we are looking `t are more to do with terrorism, with | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
We have seen recent news reports about people having bombs | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
These are not going to be stopped by nuclear weapons | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
and I think we should be spdnding the money more wisely | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
Andrew, the argument, it is outdated. | :45:52. | :45:53. | |
It is not needed in today's environment. | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
Well, if it were possible to define all the threats that face | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
the country this would be a much easier debate to have, but | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
the simple reality is that nobody has that ability and foresight. | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
Frankly, the Greens will never be in a | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
position to have to make a decision about the difficult things, about | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
The great matters of state like that, that are right | :46:19. | :46:26. | |
at the heart of government of any colour, to ignore that as | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
a possibility and not to go for the minimum credible and independent | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
deterrent, I think, at this stage, would be a wrong decision. | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
Would you reduce the number of boats from four to three as has | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
Later on, as the programme for developing weapons | :46:46. | :46:56. | |
for the boats evolves, we mhght be in a different position because we | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
might have a better underst`nding of some of the threats. | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
But they are so complex and changing all the time in this | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
world of a new asymmetric threat, but also with rogue countrids with | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
nuclear weapons at their disposal, we cannot take chances. | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
Eric, given the strain on the military, given the cuts that | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
the military has endured, wouldn?t it be better to spend some of that | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
?20 billion on the army, air force or navy, and conventional forces? | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
The ultimate job of governmdnt is to protect its people. | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
In an unsafe world, looking at what we are seeing in Iraq, | :47:38. | :47:39. | |
looking at North Korea now, with long`range rocketry, Iran possibly | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
with long`range rocketry, we have go to have the ultimate weapon. | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
And this is the ultimate weapon and it has kept us safe for what, | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
But who would we be defending against in today's world? | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
We have a threat from other countries and evdn | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
Russia, shall we say, given what?s happened in the Ukraine and Crimea. | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
This is an unsafe world and the government is responsible | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
This weapons system has just done that. | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
Tom, Andrew is saying you are not ever going to have | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
It is easy for you to say it, but you are not facing up to re`lity. | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
We may not be making those decisions at the moment, but we still have | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
our principle position and to bring in things like Ukraine and Syria | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
as examples of why we need nuclear weapons ? these situations have | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
arisen in a world with lots of nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
are unable to prevent these things and are unable to stop them once | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
There are only a handful of countries left in the world ? I | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
think nine countries ? which still have a nuclear arsenal. | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
The rest of the world are talking and working towards disarmalent | :48:46. | :48:47. | |
We should be supporting those efforts to invest... | :48:48. | :48:49. | |
Just to be clear, is it not just that you would save | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
money by reducing the number of submarines, you would just say, | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
Yes, we would disarm our nuclear arsenal. | :48:56. | :49:03. | |
It is a principle position `nd it is different to the three main parties. | :49:04. | :49:10. | |
Right, we will leave it there, but thank you very much indeed. | :49:11. | :49:11. | |
Now, students with disabilities here in the North West have warned that | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
benefit changes may mean fewer of them going to university. | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
The Disabled Students' Allowance ` DSA ` helps pay for what they need, | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
such as special software or accommodation. | :49:21. | :49:22. | |
As Stuart Pollitt explains, the government's now asking | :49:23. | :49:24. | |
universities themselves to take more responsibility for welfare. | :49:25. | :49:33. | |
Students have been on the streets over tuition fees, | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
then over educational maintenance allowances or EMA, so could DSA be | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
Krishnan is busy preparing the ground for a new garden | :49:42. | :49:51. | |
at the University of Central Lancashire in Preston. | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
He's studying for an Environmental Management degree, a degree which | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
It has enabled me to actually come to university. | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
I have received a lot of equipment from them and human support such | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
as the library assistant, note`takers for my lectures | :50:07. | :50:09. | |
and a practical assistant to help me with laboratory and field work. | :50:10. | :50:16. | |
I dread to think of the lives that would be ruined | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
by students not having enough money to purchase the equipment | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
Without the DSA I just would not have been able to start the course. | :50:23. | :50:30. | |
Krishnan isn't alone in his concerns. | :50:31. | :50:31. | |
Craig has spina bifida and is midway through a law degree. | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
The greatest concern people have is that you will simply not be | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
People will be languishing on benefits. | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
Currently students are entitled to up to ?5,161 a year | :50:44. | :50:51. | |
for specialist equipment, around ?20,000 for non`medical helpers | :50:52. | :50:53. | |
like note`takers and up to ?1,7 0 for things like travel expenses. | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
Students with anything from dyslexia through to blhnd | :51:00. | :51:01. | |
and deaf undergraduates are tested to check if they are eligible. | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
Last year 53,000 students rdceived DSA, costing nearly ?120 million. | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
The new President of UCLAN's student union was one | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
The students at UCLAN will be massively affected. | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
There are around 2,500 students who rdceived | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
I agree with the government looking at DSA | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
They should be looking at reforming the whole DSA `nd | :51:27. | :51:33. | |
thinking, how can we make it better, how can we make it more bendficial? | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
So, students are worried but there are implications, too | :51:37. | :51:38. | |
for universities, who have been asked to supply more funding | :51:39. | :51:41. | |
and to take more responsibility for disabled students. | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
The problem is, the univershties do not actually yet know exactly what | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
The detail from the governmdnt about which students will continue | :51:48. | :51:54. | |
to receive DSA is not reallx clear to us at this moment in time. | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
Are you going to have to provide more people | :51:58. | :51:59. | |
One thing that is really cldar from the announcement is that there | :52:00. | :52:06. | |
is going to be a significant financial impact on Lancastdr | :52:07. | :52:08. | |
University and, in fact, on universities across the country when | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
We are getting, I think, a better balance between | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
the individual payment for the student and the obligation of the | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
institution and overall there will be more provision, more support. | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
This is a better system for the disabled because soletimes, | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
with it all being done throtgh an individual budget | :52:26. | :52:27. | |
And where there are extra individual needs for the student, | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
of course disabled students allowance will carry on. | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
Krishnan just hopes that's true and that by the time | :52:36. | :52:37. | |
his garden flourishes other students will continue to get the help he has | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
And we're joined now from London by Dr Nicola Martin | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
from the National Association of Disability Practitioners, which | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
represents people who work with students who need extra support. | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
Nicola, thanks for being on the programme. | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
The consultation period feels like it is not really | :52:58. | :53:04. | |
The National Association of Disability Practitioners represents | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
practically every universitx in the UK and includes people with | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
expertise in promoting disability equality in post`school education ` | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
the National Union of Students, obviously a whole wealth | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
of expertise ` and the announcement came in thd spring | :53:24. | :53:25. | |
as an absolute bolt out of the blue, with no prior consultation. | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
We understand that consultation in the autumn will be | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
about the clarity of procedures rather than whether the ide` is any | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
Do you agree with the principle of it, though? | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
I think that disability practitioners are incredibly | :53:44. | :53:45. | |
flexible people who have moved with the times | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
as assistance technology has changed along with everything else. | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
We are used to change, we are used to development and DSA needs to be | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
reviewed in some ways, but this period, having everything in place | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
I used to be a principal lecturer for inclusive practices at Sheffield | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
Hallam University, which was very forward thinking, and in eight years | :54:11. | :54:16. | |
we made some strides towards developing embedded inclusive | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
practice, but not in any way enough that we would compensate | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
for providing non`medical help support for disabled students who | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
absolutely need something which is tailored to their individual needs. | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
Okay, let me bring in Eric Ollerenshaw. | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
What do you make of this and particularly the criticisms there? | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
I can understand the criticisms and the worry about it, | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
but you can argue consultation/prior consultation | :54:49. | :54:51. | |
Consultation is actually gohng on, so the government is actually | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
This allowance was agreed 24 years ago and hasn?t been reviewed since. | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
Obviously, 25 years ago a computer might have been seen | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
as a complex need, whereas now it is a different kind of world. | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
We are trying to find out the best way of helping the ones with the | :55:08. | :55:13. | |
It has been successful in tdrms of delivering that but, given we | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
agreed that universities could have an increase in fees, one of | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
the principles behind that was that universities would also demonstrate | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
So we want to see what univdrsities are also doing in encouraging more | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
and supporting disabled into the actual colleges and the courses. | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
While at the same time, obviously, every single item of governlent | :55:38. | :55:39. | |
expenditure has to be reviewed because we still haven?t yet closed | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
If that was a correct analysis, what Eric is saying is that the lassive | :55:43. | :55:51. | |
increase and hike in fees that the coalition have brought in is passing | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
the cost of disabled students back to the student population. | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
This is the public duty and it is hugely important that we | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
should not allow this clever smoke and mirrors exercise to continue. | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
What has happened, just as hs happening in local government, local | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
government has been told to do more and more with less and less money. | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
Universities are now being told to do more and more with less | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
And the victims in all this, in this case, are disabled students. | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
I encourage every single disabled student to write to their MP | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
and demand that the system hs, yes, there can be a review, I fully agree | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
with that, but let us make sure that it is based upon a fair set of rules | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
Because there is case after case coming through | :56:43. | :56:51. | |
Those institutes that have a significant number | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
of people with disabilities will be asked to put their hands deeper | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
in the pockets so the ones that have been most progressive will be | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
Dr Martin, you wanted to come back in. | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
It will mean that the disability services within | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
universities will be the equivalent of a postcode lottery. | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
Some universities will be much better place to support dis`bled | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
students and disabled students, themselves, will be seen | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
as a direct cost to univershties, which may well limit recruitment. | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
There will also be a perceived feeling that support is | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
going to be less readily av`ilable to disabled students, which is going | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
to limit them in terms of deciding to go to university. | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
Also, it is incredibly short term because we know 70% of disabled | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
graduates access employment and 40% of disabled people who are | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
We are assuming it is going to happen. | :57:51. | :58:00. | |
There is a consultation going on and, as I said, this disability | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
allowances was agreed 25 years ago, in totally different circumstances. | :58:04. | :58:05. | |
The universities have got more money coming in so there must be | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
a trade off in terms of this across the board, between | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
If it means we can concentr`te more money on the more severely disabled | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
then, presumably, we can increase accessibility. | :58:18. | :58:19. | |
In terms of the notion of complex needs and directing support towards | :58:20. | :58:26. | |
students with most complex needs, that in itself is going to be | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
a cost in terms of working out how you define complex and how | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
That cannot be changed within 12 months. | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
I would argue for example, my research is with students with | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
autism at the University of Cambridge, very brilliant young | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
people in a very complex environment which renders their needs complex | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
Although we are being consulted it is really about the clarity | :58:53. | :58:59. | |
of the process rather than actually how the system is going to operate | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
It is certainly an issue of equity across all universities. | :59:04. | :59:09. | |
Dr Martin, thank you very much for your time. | :59:10. | :59:16. | |
The Former Home Secretary Leon Brittan said Home Office officials | :59:17. | :59:24. | |
didn't report back after he passed them | :59:25. | :59:26. | |
a dossier alleging a Westminster paedophile ring in the 80s. | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
The Rochdale MP Simon Danczuk had told the Home Affairs Committee | :59:30. | :59:31. | |
Why did he not ask those officials to come back to him within | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
a week providing details of what the allegations are and ask him | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
Parents of children with special edtcational | :59:41. | :59:47. | |
needs in Wigan say they've been let down by the local authority. | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
The government's chosen the local Council to pilot changes | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
Cumbria County Council revealed that it paid former Chief Executive | :59:55. | :01:33. | |
The question is, why did that not happen? | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
Do you think there was a paedophile ring operating | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
at Westminster, which is what is, basically, being alleged? | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
I am not certain that that was in the dossier and certainlx there | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
Certainly there appears to have been a cover up at a pretty high level | :01:47. | :01:54. | |
and that needs to be investhgated and clarity brought | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
Andrew Miller, Eric Ollerenshaw, thank you very much indeed. | :01:58. | :02:07. | |
We?ll now hand you back to Andrew Neil in London. | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
research indicates that most of the progress in London was being made | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
you. What will Thursday's mass | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt | :02:25. | :02:47. | |
Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed, | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem. | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a -- | :04:03. | :04:04. | |
this ef are I time there is a - every time there is a strike, this | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third. | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal | :04:18. | :04:26. | |
for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one. | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010 At | :04:50. | :04:51. | |
strikes that took place in 2010. At that time, the TUC and the Labour | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there, | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky | :05:16. | :05:23. | |
territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
problem? They do have a problem. They have to say always that they | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some | :05:49. | :05:57. | |
politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were | :06:50. | :07:01. | |
trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There | :07:06. | :07:13. | |
are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
of it! If the most recent polls are to be | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' - | :07:21. | :07:22. | |
clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP | :07:30. | :07:31. | |
contingent to Strasbourg for the first session | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to | :07:35. | :07:54. | |
say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50 | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
will be covering more of the European Parliament at last! | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the | :08:22. | :08:23. | |
Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives. | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat - | :08:27. | :08:28. | |
Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP. | :08:29. | :08:30. | |
Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is | :08:31. | :08:41. | |
probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have | :10:28. | :10:36. | |
full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining | :10:37. | :10:44. | |
us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a | :10:45. | :10:52. | |
bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true, | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True. | :11:04. | :11:05. | |
his backbenchers liked it? True Although some of us would say it is | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically | :11:13. | :11:24. | |
and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
saw UKIP decline between the 2004 European elections and the 2005 | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round. | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that. | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the | :12:03. | :12:12. | |
polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different - | :12:18. | :12:19. | |
is very clever for a different -- the selection is very clever for a | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
different reason. It is this anti-London feeling in Thanet South. | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
He is a councillor, he grew up in the constituency. He is a chartered | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
accountant. He is somebody who can be seen to be a champion of local | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
people. If they had parachuted in a special adviser, they would be in | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
real trouble. He wants to get out... This is the third representative of | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
the bubble? He wants to get out of the European Union which David | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
Cameron doesn't want to do. It was interesting for that statement to | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
MPs on Monday, there were mild Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
take this." The Speaker said can the baying mob, the Conservative MPs, | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw, the former Minister made it, he | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
said, "I'm reminded when the leader of the Labour Party before Harold | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic speech and Mrs Gaitskell said | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
darling, the wrong people are cheering." That is the challenge. | :13:18. | :13:19. | |
Thank you, bubbles! The Daily Politics is back | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
at its usual Noon time every day And I'll be back here on BBC One | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
next Sunday at 11pm for the last Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
be talking to Scotland's Deputy Remember, if it's Sunday, | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:38. | :13:44. |