06/07/2014 Sunday Politics North West


06/07/2014

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 06/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.

:00:34.:00:40.

It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 201 .

:00:41.:00:43.

The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and

:00:44.:00:46.

Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.

:00:47.:00:51.

The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well

:00:52.:00:54.

for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.

:00:55.:00:58.

Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the

:00:59.:01:00.

Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.

:01:01.:01:07.

The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,

:01:08.:01:10.

Do we still need a nuclear deterrent?

:01:11.:01:16.

And disabled students on the benefit changes they say will

:01:17.:01:19.

And with me throughout the show, three top-flight political

:01:20.:01:34.

journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,

:01:35.:01:37.

They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.

:01:38.:01:51.

The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling

:01:52.:01:54.

around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.

:01:55.:01:57.

Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier

:01:58.:01:59.

handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official

:02:00.:02:01.

files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child

:02:02.:02:04.

Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection

:02:05.:02:09.

But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning

:02:10.:02:14.

the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.

:02:15.:02:19.

The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due

:02:20.:02:26.

process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and

:02:27.:02:29.

we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the

:02:30.:02:33.

past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the

:02:34.:02:36.

allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in

:02:37.:02:41.

order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the

:02:42.:02:46.

case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring

:02:47.:02:49.

tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the

:02:50.:02:55.

Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very

:02:56.:02:59.

hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for

:03:00.:03:02.

an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.

:03:03.:03:06.

The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way

:03:07.:03:11.

that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people

:03:12.:03:15.

who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell

:03:16.:03:19.

their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.

:03:20.:03:23.

Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in

:03:24.:03:27.

2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast

:03:28.:03:34.

Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people

:03:35.:03:37.

don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either

:03:38.:03:40.

because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust

:03:41.:03:45.

the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in

:03:46.:03:49.

the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a

:03:50.:03:53.

matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the

:03:54.:03:57.

police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim

:03:58.:04:02.

Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the

:04:03.:04:03.

United States making the allegations lives in the

:04:04.:04:06.

been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister

:04:07.:04:09.

would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem

:04:10.:04:10.

for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem

:04:11.:04:16.

allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to

:04:17.:04:20.

the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime

:04:21.:04:21.

inrequest -- that inquiry took 2 years to report. The problem is the

:04:22.:04:35.

dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations

:04:36.:04:40.

keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it

:04:41.:04:42.

is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is

:04:43.:04:50.

inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is

:04:51.:04:54.

inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after

:04:55.:04:54.

that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by

:04:55.:05:02.

that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require

:05:03.:05:02.

resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the

:05:03.:05:05.

case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country

:05:06.:05:11.

we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I

:05:12.:05:14.

in what a public inquiry can do I wonder whether there is another

:05:15.:05:18.

example of a country that goes through this stale ritual every few

:05:19.:05:22.

years of a scandal emerging, the opposition calling for an inquiry,

:05:23.:05:25.

the Government saying no and then holding the line or giving in. I

:05:26.:05:29.

don't know what we think this inquiries can do. It comes back to

:05:30.:05:33.

your point, Helen, you should be careful what you call an inquiry on

:05:34.:05:36.

so it doesn't devalue the concept. On Thursday up to a million public

:05:37.:05:42.

sector workers - including teachers, firemen and council workers -

:05:43.:05:44.

will go on strike. Their unions have differing gripes

:05:45.:05:46.

but the fact they're all striking on the same day is designed to send

:05:47.:05:48.

a strong message to the government. As the economy picks up again

:05:49.:05:50.

they're demanding an end Growth has returned strongly to

:05:51.:05:53.

the UK economy and unemployment is at its lowest

:05:54.:05:59.

level for more than five years. So why is there still talk

:06:00.:06:02.

of austerity The deficit is coming down but much

:06:03.:06:05.

more slowly than the government And accumulated deficits -

:06:06.:06:10.

the national debt - The UK is now in hock to the tune

:06:11.:06:17.

of ?1.3 trillion - and rising. In fact, we're only 40% of the way

:06:18.:06:26.

through George Osborne's planned austerity, with the chancellor now

:06:27.:06:29.

saying he won't manage to balance Unions are now rebelling

:06:30.:06:32.

against tight pay controls. Since 2010, average public sector

:06:33.:06:38.

pay, which goes to about 1 in 5 Over the same period,

:06:39.:06:42.

prices increased by 16% - meaning the average public sector

:06:43.:06:49.

worker saw their pay squeezed Going head-to-head on the public

:06:50.:06:53.

sector strikes and austerity - the general secretary of the TUC

:06:54.:07:00.

Frances O'Grady, and Conservative We have seen it, public sector pay

:07:01.:07:20.

squeezed by 9% under the Coalition Government. Isn't it time to take

:07:21.:07:25.

your foot off the brake a bit? I don't think it is the right time to

:07:26.:07:31.

let go of the public finances at all. We were always clear that this

:07:32.:07:35.

is what's called a structural deficit, it doesn't go away just

:07:36.:07:40.

because the growth is returning and the economy is coming back. We have

:07:41.:07:45.

protected and are protecting the lowest paid public sector workers

:07:46.:07:51.

who weren't part of the pay freeze and now pay going up by 1%. These

:07:52.:07:56.

are difficult decisions. We have had that discussion many times. They are

:07:57.:08:01.

necessary in order to keep that plan on track and as we can see in the

:08:02.:08:06.

wider economy, it is working. People's living standards will have

:08:07.:08:09.

to continue to fall if you are in the public sector? We need to keep

:08:10.:08:13.

public spending under control and pay restraint is one of the main

:08:14.:08:17.

ways of being able... The answer is yes? The answer is this is

:08:18.:08:21.

necessary. The answer is yes, this is necessary. It isn't because we

:08:22.:08:24.

want to. We have to. This strike isn't going to change the

:08:25.:08:28.

Government's mind, is it? It does seem like the Government isn't

:08:29.:08:31.

listening. We have had years... They are listening, they just don't

:08:32.:08:35.

agree. Ordinary people, including those in the public sector, are

:08:36.:08:38.

finding it really tough. What really sticks in the throat is the idea

:08:39.:08:43.

that money can be found to give tax cuts to billionaires, to

:08:44.:08:46.

millionaires and to big corporations. But it can't be found

:08:47.:08:54.

to help 500,000 workers in local government, dinner ladies, school

:08:55.:08:58.

meal workers, lollipop men and women who are earning less than the living

:08:59.:09:02.

wage. What do you say to that? We have protected those who are the

:09:03.:09:05.

least well-paid in the public sector. But this is about a

:09:06.:09:10.

long-term... How can you? Hold on. You have said you have protected

:09:11.:09:14.

them. This involves ordinary people, many watching this programme, they

:09:15.:09:20.

have had a 1% pay rise in some cases since 2010. The average gas bill is

:09:21.:09:26.

up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in

:09:27.:09:29.

costs up 16%, running a car 11% in what way have you protected people

:09:30.:09:35.

from spending they have to make Firstly, you read out the average

:09:36.:09:40.

increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the

:09:41.:09:43.

top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we

:09:44.:09:49.

could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax

:09:50.:09:52.

and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive

:09:53.:09:56.

impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20

:09:57.:10:00.

pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have

:10:01.:10:04.

got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and

:10:05.:10:09.

we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010,

:10:10.:10:12.

the top than we did before 2010 partly because we have encouraged

:10:13.:10:17.

them to invest. And this is a really important balance of making sure we

:10:18.:10:22.

get the books back in order, we have stability for family finances and we

:10:23.:10:27.

get the economy going. Why not spread the living wage? We know you

:10:28.:10:31.

could pay for that pay increase itself if you spread the living wage

:10:32.:10:35.

through the private sector and guarantee... The living wage being

:10:36.:10:40.

above the minimum wage? Absolutely. ?7.65 in the rest of the country,

:10:41.:10:46.

?8.80 in London. What is the answer? I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But

:10:47.:10:56.

not for public sector workers. Being able to pay low-paid workers as much

:10:57.:11:00.

as possible within the constraints of the public finances is something

:11:01.:11:03.

I have pushed very hard. The evidence we can increase the minimum

:11:04.:11:07.

wage has to be balanced which the Low Pay Commission do with the

:11:08.:11:14.

impact on the number of jobs... Even after a pay freeze for quite a while

:11:15.:11:20.

among public sector workers, they are still paid 15% on average more

:11:21.:11:28.

than those in the private sector? That is not true. It is, according

:11:29.:11:34.

to the ONS figures. I read that report this morning. If you look at

:11:35.:11:37.

the whole package, what they are saying is public service workers are

:11:38.:11:43.

worse off. Average earnings in the public sector are ?16.28 an hour

:11:44.:11:52.

compared to ?14.16 private. You are comparing apples and pears. It's the

:11:53.:11:56.

kind of jobs and the size of the workplace that people work in. They

:11:57.:11:59.

are still overall on average better off? Lower paid workers tend to be

:12:00.:12:06.

better off because unions negotiate better deals for lower paid workers.

:12:07.:12:14.

They are more unionised in the pry private sector. The public sector is

:12:15.:12:18.

worse off. This is a political strike, isn't it? There is a whole

:12:19.:12:22.

disparate range of reasons. The strike is saying that you are

:12:23.:12:25.

against this Government, that is what this is about? I this I what

:12:26.:12:30.

firefighters, local government workers and health workers who are

:12:31.:12:34.

protesting, too, alongside teachers are saying is that this Government

:12:35.:12:38.

is not listening, it is out of touch, people can't carry on having

:12:39.:12:42.

cuts in their living standards depending on benefits. When will the

:12:43.:12:48.

public sector worker ever get a real increase in their pay under a

:12:49.:12:51.

Conservative Government? Well, we certainly hope to have the books

:12:52.:12:58.

balanced by 2018. Not before then? 2018 is when we hope to be able to

:12:59.:13:00.

be in surplus. It is testament... be in surplus. It is testament. .

:13:01.:13:06.

So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?

:13:07.:13:14.

Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,

:13:15.:13:18.

the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their

:13:19.:13:22.

credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look

:13:23.:13:26.

forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these

:13:27.:13:29.

strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking

:13:30.:13:32.

union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they

:13:33.:13:38.

think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point

:13:39.:13:46.

about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public

:13:47.:13:51.

service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds

:13:52.:13:58.

wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite

:13:59.:14:09.

and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One

:14:10.:14:16.

final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on

:14:17.:14:19.

this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail

:14:20.:14:21.

on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's

:14:22.:14:27.

planning a big crackdown on the unions over balloting, is that true?

:14:28.:14:33.

Well, strikes like this... I know the cases, is it true you are going

:14:34.:14:36.

to dhang the law? Strikes like this make that argument stronger. The

:14:37.:14:38.

Conservative Party is make that argument stronger. The

:14:39.:14:40.

on the basis is one that puts the matter of

:14:41.:15:22.

independence to bed is one that puts the matter of

:15:23.:16:28.

is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more

:16:29.:16:34.

or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have

:16:35.:16:40.

powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are

:16:41.:16:44.

planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying

:16:45.:16:52.

different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have

:16:53.:16:55.

slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an

:16:56.:17:00.

agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute

:17:01.:17:08.

book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 1998,

:17:09.:17:13.

people unified around a single proposition so there is history here

:17:14.:17:17.

and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in

:17:18.:17:20.

the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland

:17:21.:17:27.

vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers?

:17:28.:17:29.

vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers I

:17:30.:17:31.

would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have

:17:32.:17:36.

something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in

:17:37.:17:40.

the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not

:17:41.:17:44.

certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,

:17:45.:17:50.

and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the

:17:51.:17:56.

past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt

:17:57.:18:02.

over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that

:18:03.:18:07.

walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists

:18:08.:18:10.

because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete

:18:11.:18:15.

break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that

:18:16.:18:20.

wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any

:18:21.:18:27.

plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,

:18:28.:18:33.

what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future

:18:34.:18:36.

of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.

:18:37.:18:42.

When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with

:18:43.:18:45.

representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that

:18:46.:18:50.

affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want

:18:51.:18:57.

to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local

:18:58.:19:00.

authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the

:19:01.:19:05.

uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would

:19:06.:19:10.

throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic

:19:11.:19:20.

arguments are dominating people's thinking, the polls show, that is

:19:21.:19:38.

what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued

:19:39.:19:42.

membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an

:19:43.:19:48.

in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued

:19:49.:19:53.

Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and

:19:54.:19:57.

conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into

:19:58.:20:01.

something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we

:20:02.:20:08.

have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate

:20:09.:20:13.

which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have

:20:14.:20:20.

to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union

:20:21.:20:24.

does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half

:20:25.:20:29.

years to get into Europe. I don't want that uncertainty or the

:20:30.:20:33.

disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with

:20:34.:20:40.

losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about

:20:41.:20:46.

is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,

:20:47.:20:50.

and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to

:20:51.:21:00.

stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the

:21:01.:21:05.

argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that

:21:06.:21:12.

over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that

:21:13.:21:17.

is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our

:21:18.:21:20.

arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be

:21:21.:21:25.

made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists

:21:26.:21:32.

win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no

:21:33.:21:41.

vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a

:21:42.:21:47.

world of difference between devolution and further devolution

:21:48.:21:51.

where you remain part of the UK There is a world of difference

:21:52.:21:57.

between that and making a break where Scotland becomes a foreign

:21:58.:22:02.

country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those

:22:03.:22:06.

opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with

:22:07.:22:16.

pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with

:22:17.:22:20.

passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon

:22:21.:22:26.

Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to

:22:27.:22:31.

take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign

:22:32.:22:35.

over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for

:22:36.:22:41.

remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had

:22:42.:22:48.

warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland

:22:49.:22:52.

we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from

:22:53.:22:58.

that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from

:22:59.:23:02.

saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are

:23:03.:23:06.

collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand

:23:07.:23:10.

up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is

:23:11.:23:16.

perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what

:23:17.:23:22.

you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know

:23:23.:23:38.

about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the

:23:39.:23:48.

leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was

:23:49.:23:53.

being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to

:23:54.:23:58.

blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South

:23:59.:24:04.

of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.

:24:05.:24:13.

I think it is important in this debate that people from outside

:24:14.:24:17.

politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on

:24:18.:24:23.

because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody

:24:24.:24:28.

should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will

:24:29.:24:32.

happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are

:24:33.:24:37.

making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.

:24:38.:24:46.

I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon,

:24:47.:24:48.

hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon next week on Sunday Politics.

:24:49.:24:54.

Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow.

:24:55.:24:59.

Disastrous results in the European elections, it is fair to say the Lib

:25:00.:25:05.

Dems are down in the doldrums. In a moment I will be speaking to Nick

:25:06.:25:10.

Clegg, but first Emily has been asking what Lib Dems would say to

:25:11.:25:25.

the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister on Call Clegg. Our phone in this

:25:26.:25:34.

week is the challenges facing the Liberal Democrats. They are rock

:25:35.:25:37.

bottom in the polls and have dire results in the local and European

:25:38.:25:43.

elections so what can the party do to turn things around? Get in

:25:44.:25:48.

touch, we are going straight to line one and Gareth. How much is a

:25:49.:25:54.

problem of that loss of local support? It is a massive problem

:25:55.:25:58.

because those are the building blocks of our success. The

:25:59.:26:02.

councillors who gets the case work done are also the people who go out

:26:03.:26:08.

and deliver the leaflets and knock on doors. Interesting, and it is not

:26:09.:26:14.

just local support the party has lost, is it? In the next general

:26:15.:26:19.

election there are some big-name Liberal Democrat MPs standing down

:26:20.:26:24.

like Malcolm Bruce and Ming Campbell, how much of a problem will

:26:25.:26:34.

that be? That is a real challenge and we have some of our brightest

:26:35.:26:39.

and best reaching an age of maturity at the same moment so that is quite

:26:40.:26:44.

an additional test in what will be a difficult election anyway. So how

:26:45.:26:48.

does the party need to position itself to win back support? Let's

:26:49.:26:51.

does the party need to position itself to win back support? Let s go

:26:52.:26:56.

to Chris online free, has the party got its strategy right? There is

:26:57.:27:01.

always a danger of appearing to be a party that merely dilutes Labour or

:27:02.:27:08.

dilutes the Conservatives. We have a of is serious, positive messages and

:27:09.:27:12.

we need to get those across in the next election because if we don t

:27:13.:27:14.

next election because if we don't people will vote for the Tories

:27:15.:27:19.

Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I

:27:20.:27:25.

have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good

:27:26.:27:31.

stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may

:27:32.:27:36.

think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing

:27:37.:27:41.

on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.

:27:42.:28:09.

Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the

:28:10.:28:13.

doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.

:28:14.:28:17.

Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There

:28:18.:28:21.

is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people

:28:22.:28:26.

who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a

:28:27.:28:29.

timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things. We

:28:30.:28:35.

are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What

:28:36.:28:39.

are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious

:28:40.:28:44.

long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of

:28:45.:28:49.

the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back

:28:50.:28:53.

decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented

:28:54.:28:57.

in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue

:28:58.:29:00.

ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going

:29:01.:29:04.

to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how

:29:05.:29:08.

well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we

:29:09.:29:13.

are going to finish with an old classic now.

:29:14.:29:15.

# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the

:29:16.:29:18.

programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you

:29:19.:29:22.

will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and

:29:23.:29:25.

historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it

:29:26.:29:27.

mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry

:29:28.:29:31.

into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything

:29:32.:29:41.

it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.

:29:42.:29:56.

delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an

:29:57.:30:01.

inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,

:30:02.:30:05.

serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home

:30:06.:30:08.

Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in

:30:09.:30:13.

the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are

:30:14.:30:17.

looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken

:30:18.:30:22.

place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,

:30:23.:30:28.

truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,

:30:29.:30:33.

is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but

:30:34.:30:36.

there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195

:30:37.:30:41.

involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree

:30:42.:30:45.

that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home

:30:46.:30:50.

Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been

:30:51.:30:53.

mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate

:30:54.:30:59.

themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that - and

:31:00.:31:01.

that we need to make sure that and the police need to make sure that

:31:02.:31:04.

the police investigations are thorough, well resourced. I can't

:31:05.:31:06.

thorough, well resourced. I can t think of anything more horrendous, I

:31:07.:31:12.

can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse

:31:13.:31:15.

still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse

:31:16.:31:19.

the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at

:31:20.:31:23.

the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only

:31:24.:31:29.

way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting

:31:30.:31:31.

authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about

:31:32.:31:37.

what other inquiries take place A number of other inquiries are taking

:31:38.:31:41.

place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second

:31:42.:31:44.

guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.

:31:45.:31:48.

All I would say is that people who have information, who want to

:31:49.:31:51.

provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in

:31:52.:31:54.

touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry

:31:55.:31:59.

into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself

:32:00.:32:04.

and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is

:32:05.:32:07.

called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not

:32:08.:32:13.

called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two

:32:14.:32:19.

parties who retain different identities, different values, have

:32:20.:32:21.

different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament

:32:22.:32:25.

have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency

:32:26.:32:29.

back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a

:32:30.:32:34.

precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political

:32:35.:32:37.

challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal

:32:38.:32:39.

Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without

:32:40.:32:42.

the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic

:32:43.:32:46.

recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why

:32:47.:32:48.

aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we

:32:49.:32:56.

spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal

:32:57.:33:00.

Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They

:33:01.:33:05.

don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the

:33:06.:33:13.

recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will

:33:14.:33:17.

shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by

:33:18.:33:22.

forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the

:33:23.:33:25.

Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public

:33:26.:33:29.

finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the

:33:30.:33:32.

case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they

:33:33.:33:35.

wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered

:33:36.:33:40.

the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.

:33:41.:33:47.

Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our

:33:48.:33:52.

message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a

:33:53.:34:03.

constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot

:34:04.:34:08.

of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into

:34:09.:34:11.

Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can

:34:12.:34:15.

touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and

:34:16.:34:22.

then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were

:34:23.:34:26.

winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties.

:34:27.:34:27.

winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties It

:34:28.:34:27.

Conservative and Labour parties. It is a big effort. Of course, there

:34:28.:34:31.

are lots of people from both left and right who want to shout us down

:34:32.:34:34.

and want to vilify our role in Government. What we also need to do

:34:35.:34:39.

- and Nick Harvey was quite right - having been proud of our record of

:34:40.:34:43.

delivery, we also need to set out in our manifesto as we are and as we

:34:44.:34:49.

will our promise of more, of more support in schools. So why is it

:34:50.:34:57.

then... Why is it then that a Lib Dem MP in our own film says you are

:34:58.:35:02.

in danger of no longer becoming a National Party. That could be the

:35:03.:35:06.

Clegg legacy, you cease to be a National Party? I'm a practical man.

:35:07.:35:12.

I believe passionately in what we have done in politics. I am so proud

:35:13.:35:16.

of my party. I don't spend that much time speculating that the end might

:35:17.:35:19.

be nigh. There is no point in doing that. Let's get out there, which is

:35:20.:35:26.

what I do in my own constituency, in challenges circumstances and say we

:35:27.:35:29.

are proud of what we have done, we have done a good thing for the

:35:30.:35:32.

country, we have delivered more Liberal Democrat policies than the

:35:33.:35:36.

party has ever dreamed delivering before. We have a programme of

:35:37.:35:40.

change, of reform, of liberal reform, which is very exciting. Just

:35:41.:35:43.

over the last few weeks, I have been setting out our plans to provide

:35:44.:35:48.

more help to carers, to make sure teachers in every classroom are

:35:49.:35:52.

properly qualified, that all kids in school are being taught a proper

:35:53.:35:58.

core curriculum. That parts company from the ideological rigidities with

:35:59.:36:02.

which the Conservatives deal with education policy. Those are thing

:36:03.:36:05.

which speak to many of the values that people who support us...

:36:06.:36:12.

Alright. When Mike Storey gets out and about, he told this programme

:36:13.:36:19.

two weeks' ago that he finds that you "are toxic on the doorstep".

:36:20.:36:22.

you "are toxic on the doorstep" Look, as everybody knows, being the

:36:23.:36:26.

leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into

:36:27.:36:30.

Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because

:36:31.:36:34.

you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of

:36:35.:36:38.

that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken

:36:39.:36:42.

economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that

:36:43.:36:46.

party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say

:36:47.:36:47.

that I'm stopping from right and left. The right say

:36:48.:36:53.

win the election. The left say from right and left. The right say

:36:54.:37:17.

proudly. Is it your intention to fight the next election against an

:37:18.:37:23.

in-out referendum on Europe? Yes. Unless there is major treaty change?

:37:24.:37:29.

Our position hasn't waivered, it won't waiver, we are not going to

:37:30.:37:33.

flip-flop on the issue of the referendum like the Conservatives

:37:34.:37:34.

did. We want an in-out referendum. referendum like the Conservatives

:37:35.:37:40.

when that will happen, when in u powers are transferred to the

:37:41.:37:41.

European Union. That is what we It's just gone 11.35, you're

:37:42.:39:01.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:39:02.:39:07.

in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland.

:39:08.:39:09.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week

:39:10.:39:17.

Disabled students on the benefit changes they say will

:39:18.:39:24.

I dread to think of the lives that will be rtined

:39:25.:39:30.

by students not having enough money to purchase the equipment to come

:39:31.:39:34.

Let?s welcome my guests this week, the Conservative MP for Lancaster

:39:35.:39:40.

and Fleetwood, Eric Ollerenshaw and Andrew Miller, the Labour MP

:39:41.:39:43.

Over the last few weeks the political parties have been

:39:44.:39:49.

falling over themselves to support the North of England.

:39:50.:39:52.

The Chancellor announced extra funding for transport and science

:39:53.:39:55.

And Labour offered more political power to the regions.

:39:56.:40:03.

The way we solve these questions I am talking about is with local

:40:04.:40:06.

people making local decisions with local businesses about how

:40:07.:40:10.

their area can grow, prosper and create the jobs of the future.

:40:11.:40:18.

Andrew, it feels a bit like a competition, here, to see who can

:40:19.:40:21.

It is blindingly obvious thd power has to come out of the centre.

:40:22.:40:29.

It is in the interests of the national economy to have

:40:30.:40:33.

more resource and decision making in the regions.

:40:34.:40:38.

And, here in the north`west, we have got enormous assets at our disposal.

:40:39.:40:44.

I have just helped the North`West Business Leaders Team work on the

:40:45.:40:49.

It has taken the political parties a long time to wake up to that.

:40:50.:40:57.

Some of us have been arguing that for a very long time

:40:58.:41:00.

and I am pleased to see that the region is being recognised

:41:01.:41:03.

as a potential powerhouse that can transform the economy, not just

:41:04.:41:09.

Is there a distinction, Eric, between what

:41:10.:41:12.

We coined a phrase called 'localism' back in 2010.

:41:13.:41:18.

I think Miliband is now playing catch`up with what we have been

:41:19.:41:21.

trying to do in terms of investment and infrastructure

:41:22.:41:23.

We are getting a link road that was promised 35 years ago,

:41:24.:41:28.

but the coalition government has now spent the money and the diggers are

:41:29.:41:31.

It is just called catch`up and rebalancing the north`south divide

:41:32.:41:35.

which actually got wider under the 35 years of the Labour Party, so

:41:36.:41:38.

That is a bit like claiming credit for the second Mersey crosshng.

:41:39.:41:44.

It was actually a Labour decision that is being reinforced

:41:45.:41:46.

I think there is a long gestation here and we need to

:41:47.:41:52.

And we ought to be working cooperatively in the interests

:41:53.:41:57.

A group of former ministers, diplomats and generals said

:41:58.:42:02.

replacing the Trident nuclear deterrent is crucial to prevent the

:42:03.:42:06.

But exactly what will replace it and when is still open to qtestion.

:42:07.:42:12.

And that could have an impact on jobs in Barrow,

:42:13.:42:15.

For the last 40 years there has been at least one nuclear armed submarine

:42:16.:42:24.

And after three years of research, the cross`party Trident Commission

:42:25.:42:28.

found that Britain should keep its independent nuclear detdrrent.

:42:29.:42:34.

But the committee of former ministers, diplomats and generals

:42:35.:42:37.

were split over how many submarines should be built here in Barrow,

:42:38.:42:40.

and argue there could be advantages to delaying the renewal programme.

:42:41.:42:44.

The Conservative members believe in a like`for`like replacement

:42:45.:42:47.

It does if you want to be certain that you

:42:48.:42:53.

actually have a submarine available whenever you might need it,

:42:54.:42:56.

365 days a year, every week of the year for the next 40 years, which is

:42:57.:43:01.

The report asks for greater collaboration with the US and France

:43:02.:43:06.

and the Liberal Democrats believe that would mean the deterrent would

:43:07.:43:09.

I would like to see the boats reduced from four to three.

:43:10.:43:16.

I would like the weapons system modifying,

:43:17.:43:18.

not to be a Trident missile but to be a cheaper Cruise missile

:43:19.:43:22.

I think that would be just as effective as the four bo`ts with

:43:23.:43:29.

the Trident missiles and it would save the country billions of pounds

:43:30.:43:33.

that we could spend on other things that the country desperatelx needs.

:43:34.:43:36.

The cost of replacing the four boats is put at ?20 billion.

:43:37.:43:40.

Reducing that number, or delaying the decision beyond

:43:41.:43:43.

2016, would have a dramatic impact on Barrow but not the overall cost

:43:44.:43:47.

Every time, as a country, we decide to build a new nuclear

:43:48.:43:55.

When you have a programme lhke this, by the time you get to building

:43:56.:44:06.

the fourth boat, the costs are coming down anyway.

:44:07.:44:09.

In March, the government announced ?300 million to upgrade the Barrow

:44:10.:44:12.

A decision won't be taken until 2016 at the earliest.

:44:13.:44:21.

And we're also joined now by Tom Crone, one of the Green Party's

:44:22.:44:24.

two newly`elected councillors in Liverpool.

:44:25.:44:25.

Why do you want to disarm in terms of nuclear weapons

:44:26.:44:32.

The Green Party has always been opposed to nuclear weapons in

:44:33.:44:40.

Britain but, in the 21st Century, with the change in threats the

:44:41.:44:44.

country is facing, it is quite clear that for most of the realistic

:44:45.:44:48.

threats we face nuclear weapons are not a realistic deterrent

:44:49.:44:52.

and can?t be used to solve lany of those problems.

:44:53.:44:55.

We are constantly being told that it is essential to replace Trident

:44:56.:44:59.

but countries such as Spain, Germany, Italy ? most other

:45:00.:45:03.

European countries ? are dohng fine without any nuclear weapons.

:45:04.:45:07.

They are able to spend that money, instead, on public services.

:45:08.:45:11.

That?s what, as a councillor, I would like to see.

:45:12.:45:14.

I?m constantly being approached by people worried that their

:45:15.:45:16.

libraries, their sports centres are under threat of closure and I think

:45:17.:45:20.

politicians should be standhng up for those issues rather than

:45:21.:45:23.

investing lots of taxpayers' money on

:45:24.:45:25.

a new weapons system. But they would be worried if nuclear bombs started

:45:26.:45:28.

And I do not think that is one of the immediate threats we ard facing.

:45:29.:45:35.

The threats we are looking `t are more to do with terrorism, with

:45:36.:45:38.

We have seen recent news reports about people having bombs

:45:39.:45:44.

These are not going to be stopped by nuclear weapons

:45:45.:45:48.

and I think we should be spdnding the money more wisely

:45:49.:45:51.

Andrew, the argument, it is outdated.

:45:52.:45:53.

It is not needed in today's environment.

:45:54.:45:59.

Well, if it were possible to define all the threats that face

:46:00.:46:02.

the country this would be a much easier debate to have, but

:46:03.:46:05.

the simple reality is that nobody has that ability and foresight.

:46:06.:46:10.

Frankly, the Greens will never be in a

:46:11.:46:13.

position to have to make a decision about the difficult things, about

:46:14.:46:18.

The great matters of state like that, that are right

:46:19.:46:26.

at the heart of government of any colour, to ignore that as

:46:27.:46:30.

a possibility and not to go for the minimum credible and independent

:46:31.:46:36.

deterrent, I think, at this stage, would be a wrong decision.

:46:37.:46:41.

Would you reduce the number of boats from four to three as has

:46:42.:46:45.

Later on, as the programme for developing weapons

:46:46.:46:56.

for the boats evolves, we mhght be in a different position because we

:46:57.:47:00.

might have a better underst`nding of some of the threats.

:47:01.:47:03.

But they are so complex and changing all the time in this

:47:04.:47:08.

world of a new asymmetric threat, but also with rogue countrids with

:47:09.:47:14.

nuclear weapons at their disposal, we cannot take chances.

:47:15.:47:18.

Eric, given the strain on the military, given the cuts that

:47:19.:47:22.

the military has endured, wouldn?t it be better to spend some of that

:47:23.:47:26.

?20 billion on the army, air force or navy, and conventional forces?

:47:27.:47:32.

The ultimate job of governmdnt is to protect its people.

:47:33.:47:37.

In an unsafe world, looking at what we are seeing in Iraq,

:47:38.:47:39.

looking at North Korea now, with long`range rocketry, Iran possibly

:47:40.:47:44.

with long`range rocketry, we have go to have the ultimate weapon.

:47:45.:47:47.

And this is the ultimate weapon and it has kept us safe for what,

:47:48.:47:51.

But who would we be defending against in today's world?

:47:52.:47:57.

We have a threat from other countries and evdn

:47:58.:48:02.

Russia, shall we say, given what?s happened in the Ukraine and Crimea.

:48:03.:48:05.

This is an unsafe world and the government is responsible

:48:06.:48:08.

This weapons system has just done that.

:48:09.:48:11.

Tom, Andrew is saying you are not ever going to have

:48:12.:48:14.

It is easy for you to say it, but you are not facing up to re`lity.

:48:15.:48:20.

We may not be making those decisions at the moment, but we still have

:48:21.:48:23.

our principle position and to bring in things like Ukraine and Syria

:48:24.:48:26.

as examples of why we need nuclear weapons ? these situations have

:48:27.:48:31.

arisen in a world with lots of nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons

:48:32.:48:34.

are unable to prevent these things and are unable to stop them once

:48:35.:48:37.

There are only a handful of countries left in the world ? I

:48:38.:48:41.

think nine countries ? which still have a nuclear arsenal.

:48:42.:48:45.

The rest of the world are talking and working towards disarmalent

:48:46.:48:47.

We should be supporting those efforts to invest...

:48:48.:48:49.

Just to be clear, is it not just that you would save

:48:50.:48:52.

money by reducing the number of submarines, you would just say,

:48:53.:48:55.

Yes, we would disarm our nuclear arsenal.

:48:56.:49:03.

It is a principle position `nd it is different to the three main parties.

:49:04.:49:10.

Right, we will leave it there, but thank you very much indeed.

:49:11.:49:11.

Now, students with disabilities here in the North West have warned that

:49:12.:49:14.

benefit changes may mean fewer of them going to university.

:49:15.:49:17.

The Disabled Students' Allowance ` DSA ` helps pay for what they need,

:49:18.:49:20.

such as special software or accommodation.

:49:21.:49:22.

As Stuart Pollitt explains, the government's now asking

:49:23.:49:24.

universities themselves to take more responsibility for welfare.

:49:25.:49:33.

Students have been on the streets over tuition fees,

:49:34.:49:36.

then over educational maintenance allowances or EMA, so could DSA be

:49:37.:49:41.

Krishnan is busy preparing the ground for a new garden

:49:42.:49:51.

at the University of Central Lancashire in Preston.

:49:52.:49:54.

He's studying for an Environmental Management degree, a degree which

:49:55.:49:57.

It has enabled me to actually come to university.

:49:58.:50:03.

I have received a lot of equipment from them and human support such

:50:04.:50:06.

as the library assistant, note`takers for my lectures

:50:07.:50:09.

and a practical assistant to help me with laboratory and field work.

:50:10.:50:16.

I dread to think of the lives that would be ruined

:50:17.:50:19.

by students not having enough money to purchase the equipment

:50:20.:50:22.

Without the DSA I just would not have been able to start the course.

:50:23.:50:30.

Krishnan isn't alone in his concerns.

:50:31.:50:31.

Craig has spina bifida and is midway through a law degree.

:50:32.:50:35.

The greatest concern people have is that you will simply not be

:50:36.:50:38.

People will be languishing on benefits.

:50:39.:50:43.

Currently students are entitled to up to ?5,161 a year

:50:44.:50:51.

for specialist equipment, around ?20,000 for non`medical helpers

:50:52.:50:53.

like note`takers and up to ?1,7 0 for things like travel expenses.

:50:54.:50:59.

Students with anything from dyslexia through to blhnd

:51:00.:51:01.

and deaf undergraduates are tested to check if they are eligible.

:51:02.:51:05.

Last year 53,000 students rdceived DSA, costing nearly ?120 million.

:51:06.:51:11.

The new President of UCLAN's student union was one

:51:12.:51:14.

The students at UCLAN will be massively affected.

:51:15.:51:19.

There are around 2,500 students who rdceived

:51:20.:51:22.

I agree with the government looking at DSA

:51:23.:51:26.

They should be looking at reforming the whole DSA `nd

:51:27.:51:33.

thinking, how can we make it better, how can we make it more bendficial?

:51:34.:51:36.

So, students are worried but there are implications, too

:51:37.:51:38.

for universities, who have been asked to supply more funding

:51:39.:51:41.

and to take more responsibility for disabled students.

:51:42.:51:44.

The problem is, the univershties do not actually yet know exactly what

:51:45.:51:47.

The detail from the governmdnt about which students will continue

:51:48.:51:54.

to receive DSA is not reallx clear to us at this moment in time.

:51:55.:51:57.

Are you going to have to provide more people

:51:58.:51:59.

One thing that is really cldar from the announcement is that there

:52:00.:52:06.

is going to be a significant financial impact on Lancastdr

:52:07.:52:08.

University and, in fact, on universities across the country when

:52:09.:52:11.

We are getting, I think, a better balance between

:52:12.:52:15.

the individual payment for the student and the obligation of the

:52:16.:52:18.

institution and overall there will be more provision, more support.

:52:19.:52:22.

This is a better system for the disabled because soletimes,

:52:23.:52:25.

with it all being done throtgh an individual budget

:52:26.:52:27.

And where there are extra individual needs for the student,

:52:28.:52:31.

of course disabled students allowance will carry on.

:52:32.:52:35.

Krishnan just hopes that's true and that by the time

:52:36.:52:37.

his garden flourishes other students will continue to get the help he has

:52:38.:52:41.

And we're joined now from London by Dr Nicola Martin

:52:42.:52:47.

from the National Association of Disability Practitioners, which

:52:48.:52:51.

represents people who work with students who need extra support.

:52:52.:52:54.

Nicola, thanks for being on the programme.

:52:55.:52:57.

The consultation period feels like it is not really

:52:58.:53:04.

The National Association of Disability Practitioners represents

:53:05.:53:09.

practically every universitx in the UK and includes people with

:53:10.:53:13.

expertise in promoting disability equality in post`school education `

:53:14.:53:18.

the National Union of Students, obviously a whole wealth

:53:19.:53:23.

of expertise ` and the announcement came in thd spring

:53:24.:53:25.

as an absolute bolt out of the blue, with no prior consultation.

:53:26.:53:29.

We understand that consultation in the autumn will be

:53:30.:53:33.

about the clarity of procedures rather than whether the ide` is any

:53:34.:53:38.

Do you agree with the principle of it, though?

:53:39.:53:43.

I think that disability practitioners are incredibly

:53:44.:53:45.

flexible people who have moved with the times

:53:46.:53:48.

as assistance technology has changed along with everything else.

:53:49.:53:52.

We are used to change, we are used to development and DSA needs to be

:53:53.:53:57.

reviewed in some ways, but this period, having everything in place

:53:58.:54:03.

I used to be a principal lecturer for inclusive practices at Sheffield

:54:04.:54:10.

Hallam University, which was very forward thinking, and in eight years

:54:11.:54:16.

we made some strides towards developing embedded inclusive

:54:17.:54:20.

practice, but not in any way enough that we would compensate

:54:21.:54:25.

for providing non`medical help support for disabled students who

:54:26.:54:30.

absolutely need something which is tailored to their individual needs.

:54:31.:54:36.

Okay, let me bring in Eric Ollerenshaw.

:54:37.:54:39.

What do you make of this and particularly the criticisms there?

:54:40.:54:45.

I can understand the criticisms and the worry about it,

:54:46.:54:48.

but you can argue consultation/prior consultation

:54:49.:54:51.

Consultation is actually gohng on, so the government is actually

:54:52.:54:54.

This allowance was agreed 24 years ago and hasn?t been reviewed since.

:54:55.:54:59.

Obviously, 25 years ago a computer might have been seen

:55:00.:55:02.

as a complex need, whereas now it is a different kind of world.

:55:03.:55:07.

We are trying to find out the best way of helping the ones with the

:55:08.:55:13.

It has been successful in tdrms of delivering that but, given we

:55:14.:55:18.

agreed that universities could have an increase in fees, one of

:55:19.:55:22.

the principles behind that was that universities would also demonstrate

:55:23.:55:26.

So we want to see what univdrsities are also doing in encouraging more

:55:27.:55:32.

and supporting disabled into the actual colleges and the courses.

:55:33.:55:37.

While at the same time, obviously, every single item of governlent

:55:38.:55:39.

expenditure has to be reviewed because we still haven?t yet closed

:55:40.:55:42.

If that was a correct analysis, what Eric is saying is that the lassive

:55:43.:55:51.

increase and hike in fees that the coalition have brought in is passing

:55:52.:55:56.

the cost of disabled students back to the student population.

:55:57.:56:01.

This is the public duty and it is hugely important that we

:56:02.:56:07.

should not allow this clever smoke and mirrors exercise to continue.

:56:08.:56:13.

What has happened, just as hs happening in local government, local

:56:14.:56:16.

government has been told to do more and more with less and less money.

:56:17.:56:20.

Universities are now being told to do more and more with less

:56:21.:56:23.

And the victims in all this, in this case, are disabled students.

:56:24.:56:26.

I encourage every single disabled student to write to their MP

:56:27.:56:32.

and demand that the system hs, yes, there can be a review, I fully agree

:56:33.:56:38.

with that, but let us make sure that it is based upon a fair set of rules

:56:39.:56:42.

Because there is case after case coming through

:56:43.:56:51.

Those institutes that have a significant number

:56:52.:56:57.

of people with disabilities will be asked to put their hands deeper

:56:58.:57:01.

in the pockets so the ones that have been most progressive will be

:57:02.:57:04.

Dr Martin, you wanted to come back in.

:57:05.:57:09.

It will mean that the disability services within

:57:10.:57:13.

universities will be the equivalent of a postcode lottery.

:57:14.:57:16.

Some universities will be much better place to support dis`bled

:57:17.:57:19.

students and disabled students, themselves, will be seen

:57:20.:57:23.

as a direct cost to univershties, which may well limit recruitment.

:57:24.:57:28.

There will also be a perceived feeling that support is

:57:29.:57:31.

going to be less readily av`ilable to disabled students, which is going

:57:32.:57:35.

to limit them in terms of deciding to go to university.

:57:36.:57:39.

Also, it is incredibly short term because we know 70% of disabled

:57:40.:57:43.

graduates access employment and 40% of disabled people who are

:57:44.:57:50.

We are assuming it is going to happen.

:57:51.:58:00.

There is a consultation going on and, as I said, this disability

:58:01.:58:03.

allowances was agreed 25 years ago, in totally different circumstances.

:58:04.:58:05.

The universities have got more money coming in so there must be

:58:06.:58:08.

a trade off in terms of this across the board, between

:58:09.:58:11.

If it means we can concentr`te more money on the more severely disabled

:58:12.:58:17.

then, presumably, we can increase accessibility.

:58:18.:58:19.

In terms of the notion of complex needs and directing support towards

:58:20.:58:26.

students with most complex needs, that in itself is going to be

:58:27.:58:30.

a cost in terms of working out how you define complex and how

:58:31.:58:34.

That cannot be changed within 12 months.

:58:35.:58:41.

I would argue for example, my research is with students with

:58:42.:58:44.

autism at the University of Cambridge, very brilliant young

:58:45.:58:48.

people in a very complex environment which renders their needs complex

:58:49.:58:52.

Although we are being consulted it is really about the clarity

:58:53.:58:59.

of the process rather than actually how the system is going to operate

:59:00.:59:03.

It is certainly an issue of equity across all universities.

:59:04.:59:09.

Dr Martin, thank you very much for your time.

:59:10.:59:16.

The Former Home Secretary Leon Brittan said Home Office officials

:59:17.:59:24.

didn't report back after he passed them

:59:25.:59:26.

a dossier alleging a Westminster paedophile ring in the 80s.

:59:27.:59:29.

The Rochdale MP Simon Danczuk had told the Home Affairs Committee

:59:30.:59:31.

Why did he not ask those officials to come back to him within

:59:32.:59:37.

a week providing details of what the allegations are and ask him

:59:38.:59:40.

Parents of children with special edtcational

:59:41.:59:47.

needs in Wigan say they've been let down by the local authority.

:59:48.:59:51.

The government's chosen the local Council to pilot changes

:59:52.:59:54.

Cumbria County Council revealed that it paid former Chief Executive

:59:55.:01:33.

The question is, why did that not happen?

:01:34.:01:37.

Do you think there was a paedophile ring operating

:01:38.:01:39.

at Westminster, which is what is, basically, being alleged?

:01:40.:01:43.

I am not certain that that was in the dossier and certainlx there

:01:44.:01:46.

Certainly there appears to have been a cover up at a pretty high level

:01:47.:01:54.

and that needs to be investhgated and clarity brought

:01:55.:01:57.

Andrew Miller, Eric Ollerenshaw, thank you very much indeed.

:01:58.:02:07.

We?ll now hand you back to Andrew Neil in London.

:02:08.:02:10.

research indicates that most of the progress in London was being made

:02:11.:02:14.

before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to

:02:15.:02:16.

you. What will Thursday's mass

:02:17.:02:20.

public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker

:02:21.:02:22.

attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking

:02:23.:02:24.

about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt

:02:25.:02:47.

Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the

:02:48.:02:52.

TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be

:02:53.:02:57.

telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that

:02:58.:03:00.

and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any

:03:01.:03:07.

economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because

:03:08.:03:14.

the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector

:03:15.:03:18.

job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the

:03:19.:03:23.

economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so

:03:24.:03:28.

they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years

:03:29.:03:32.

ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is

:03:33.:03:37.

naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed,

:03:38.:03:42.

they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come

:03:43.:03:47.

out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram

:03:48.:03:52.

Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of

:03:53.:03:55.

strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question

:03:56.:03:58.

that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem.

:03:59.:04:02.

The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a --

:04:03.:04:04.

this ef are I time there is a - every time there is a strike, this

:04:05.:04:09.

idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third.

:04:10.:04:14.

Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to

:04:15.:04:17.

talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal

:04:18.:04:26.

for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike

:04:27.:04:30.

law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to

:04:31.:04:33.

stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze

:04:34.:04:38.

or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till

:04:39.:04:43.

2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one.

:04:44.:04:49.

This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010 At

:04:50.:04:51.

strikes that took place in 2010. At that time, the TUC and the Labour

:04:52.:04:54.

Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,

:04:55.:05:00.

not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time

:05:01.:05:05.

round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about

:05:06.:05:11.

wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the

:05:12.:05:15.

recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky

:05:16.:05:23.

territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something

:05:24.:05:27.

out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase

:05:28.:05:34.

in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a

:05:35.:05:37.

problem? They do have a problem. They have to say always that they

:05:38.:05:40.

would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are

:05:41.:05:45.

locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going

:05:46.:05:48.

to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some

:05:49.:05:57.

politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do

:05:58.:06:02.

we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan

:06:03.:06:06.

Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are

:06:07.:06:11.

some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse

:06:12.:06:15.

Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do

:06:16.:06:19.

on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile

:06:20.:06:24.

state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or

:06:25.:06:29.

in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was

:06:30.:06:34.

a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten

:06:35.:06:37.

months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember

:06:38.:06:41.

them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that

:06:42.:06:49.

last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were

:06:50.:07:01.

trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had

:07:02.:07:05.

something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There

:07:06.:07:13.

are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance

:07:14.:07:16.

of it! If the most recent polls are to be

:07:17.:07:20.

believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -

:07:21.:07:22.

clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the

:07:23.:07:25.

appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission

:07:26.:07:29.

president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP

:07:30.:07:31.

contingent to Strasbourg for the first session

:07:32.:07:34.

of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to

:07:35.:07:54.

say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50

:07:55.:07:59.

years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that

:08:00.:08:02.

want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our

:08:03.:08:07.

countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we

:08:08.:08:14.

will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!

:08:15.:08:21.

It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the

:08:22.:08:23.

Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.

:08:24.:08:26.

Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -

:08:27.:08:28.

Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.

:08:29.:08:30.

Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is

:08:31.:08:41.

probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know

:08:42.:08:47.

well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my

:08:48.:08:50.

qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are

:08:51.:08:56.

your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of

:08:57.:09:00.

UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative

:09:01.:09:06.

values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It

:09:07.:09:13.

would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block

:09:14.:09:17.

of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have

:09:18.:09:20.

that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the

:09:21.:09:24.

luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He

:09:25.:09:28.

would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to

:09:29.:09:33.

stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little

:09:34.:09:37.

sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people

:09:38.:09:41.

who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority

:09:42.:09:45.

Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are

:09:46.:09:48.

offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of

:09:49.:09:53.

those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will

:09:54.:09:58.

put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is

:09:59.:10:03.

between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle

:10:04.:10:10.

Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The

:10:11.:10:14.

danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of

:10:15.:10:18.

the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of

:10:19.:10:22.

the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of

:10:23.:10:27.

Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have

:10:28.:10:36.

full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining

:10:37.:10:44.

us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a

:10:45.:10:52.

bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's

:10:53.:10:58.

isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true,

:10:59.:11:03.

but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True.

:11:04.:11:05.

his backbenchers liked it? True Although some of us would say it is

:11:06.:11:08.

possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment

:11:09.:11:12.

of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically

:11:13.:11:24.

and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We

:11:25.:11:29.

saw UKIP decline between the 2004 European elections and the 2005

:11:30.:11:36.

General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round.

:11:37.:11:39.

The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering

:11:40.:11:44.

12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his

:11:45.:11:48.

veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is

:11:49.:11:52.

embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that.

:11:53.:11:57.

He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not

:11:58.:12:02.

conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the

:12:03.:12:12.

polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are

:12:13.:12:17.

supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different -

:12:18.:12:19.

is very clever for a different -- the selection is very clever for a

:12:20.:12:23.

different reason. It is this anti-London feeling in Thanet South.

:12:24.:12:28.

He is a councillor, he grew up in the constituency. He is a chartered

:12:29.:12:31.

accountant. He is somebody who can be seen to be a champion of local

:12:32.:12:35.

people. If they had parachuted in a special adviser, they would be in

:12:36.:12:39.

real trouble. He wants to get out... This is the third representative of

:12:40.:12:43.

the bubble? He wants to get out of the European Union which David

:12:44.:12:46.

Cameron doesn't want to do. It was interesting for that statement to

:12:47.:12:51.

MPs on Monday, there were mild Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't

:12:52.:12:55.

take this." The Speaker said can the baying mob, the Conservative MPs,

:12:56.:13:00.

quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw, the former Minister made it, he

:13:01.:13:05.

said, "I'm reminded when the leader of the Labour Party before Harold

:13:06.:13:12.

Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic speech and Mrs Gaitskell said

:13:13.:13:17.

darling, the wrong people are cheering." That is the challenge.

:13:18.:13:19.

Thank you, bubbles! The Daily Politics is back

:13:20.:13:22.

at its usual Noon time every day And I'll be back here on BBC One

:13:23.:13:26.

next Sunday at 11pm for the last Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll

:13:27.:13:32.

be talking to Scotland's Deputy Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:33.:13:37.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:38.:13:44.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS