14/09/2014 Sunday Politics North West


14/09/2014

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.

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Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out

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their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.

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They released a video late last night, showing a masked man

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beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.

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The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.

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Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.

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David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.

:01:08.:01:10.

As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA

:01:11.:01:12.

President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder

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Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as

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he predicts a historic and substantial victory in

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As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,

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I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his

:01:35.:01:36.

And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown

:01:37.:01:44.

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask

:01:45.:01:46.

pro-unionist George Galloway whether it's enough to win over waverers.

:01:47.:01:51.

When should a misbehaving councillor call it a day?

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And sweeping changes north of the border, but what will

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step closer back to Parliament. Is it a lame-duck administration?

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Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that

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Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the

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The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American

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journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently

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beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.

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The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,

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also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK

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Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed

:02:37.:02:38.

His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he

:02:39.:02:43.

David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said

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his heart went out to Mr Haines family, who had shown extraordinary

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Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power

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to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,

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Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.

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Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr

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Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.

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Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who

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have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David

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Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action

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Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or

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any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a

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will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in

:04:00.:04:03.

that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a

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collective response to what is a threat to humanity.

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Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now

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Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet

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again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options

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facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I

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think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these

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hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government

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policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states

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are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to

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make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might

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be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the

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past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the

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hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one

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there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the

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difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.

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Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction

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the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in

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perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not

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just in Iraq, but also in Syria We heard from President Obama outlining

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his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about

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building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And

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training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the

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UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been

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arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually

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conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We

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have not got a clear answer from government and that is something

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where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible

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we might learn some more today as a result of the Cobra meeting, but I

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think the government will be wanting to not be seen to suddenly rushed to

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a completely different policy as a result of one incident, however

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terrible it is. Whether it hardens their reserve -- resolved to play

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more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait

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see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would

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like to see would be British and American special forces going in and

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getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is

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very difficult, isn't it? It is As you saw with a rescue mission a few

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months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the

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ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of

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kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so

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you need intelligence and quickly and then you need to be able to get

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the team onto the ground into that time frame. That is clearly a

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possibility and something they will be looking at, but it certainly

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challenging, particularly when you have a group like this operating

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within its own state, effectively, and knowing that other people are

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looking very hard for it and doing everything they can to hide. Gordon,

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thank you very much. Clegg dropped everything and headed

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to Scotland when a poll last Sunday gave the YES vote its first ever

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lead in this prolonged referendum If their reaction looked

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like panic, that's because it was. Until last weekend,

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though the polls had been narrowing, the consensus was still that NO

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would carry the day. The new consensus is that

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it's too close to call. If we look back at the beginning of

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the year, public opinion in Scotland was fairly settled. The no campaign

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had a commanding lead across the opinion polls, excluding the

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undecided voters. At one point, at the end of last year, an average of

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63% backed the no campaign and only 37% supported a yes vote. As we move

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into 2014 and up to this week, you can see a clear trend emerging as

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the lead for the no campaign gets narrower and narrower and the

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average of the most recent polls has the contest hanging in the balance.

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There was a poll a week ago that put the Yes campaign in the lead for the

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first time, 51% against 49%, but that lead was not reflected in the

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other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by

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Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and

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there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have

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the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but

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their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another

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suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against

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50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with

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yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %. But some people think 18% are

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undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling

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booths that could make all the difference.

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campaigner and Respect Party MP George Galloway.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the

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Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You

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sure you are on right side? Yes because the interests of working

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people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,

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a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been

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achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being

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thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the

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underlying interests of working people are on working on the

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relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very

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messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the

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children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,

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and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded

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that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK

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context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the

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opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in

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taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on

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companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest

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of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,

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country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public

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expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have

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Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The

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British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex

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Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.

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And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,

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the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be

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gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working

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people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in

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fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,

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Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely

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if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the

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way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But

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Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May The

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polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the

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average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip

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and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as

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Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour

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government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a

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stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.

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That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the

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people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on

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your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my

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feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the

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house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not

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only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy

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-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will

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mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The

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cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the

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financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry

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of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or

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less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in

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an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about

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nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are

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against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by

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independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.

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The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The

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danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex

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Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately

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joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --

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involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a

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peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole

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that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military

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entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,

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till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the

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grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines

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and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other

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hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British

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nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it

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showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely

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riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to

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be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises

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of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for

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the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told

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us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?

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I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result

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This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation

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of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The

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country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And

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the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a

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300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour

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leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer

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one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this

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deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side it

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will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,

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particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and

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decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of

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Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just

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months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of

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people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a

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grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which

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history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get

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out of its deathbed in Scotland it will have to become Labour again.

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Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,

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they need help with it. I wonder if it isn't just a failure of Labour in

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Scotland. People all over Britain are increasingly fed up with the

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Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the

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chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly

:18:21.:18:25.

right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty

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and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many

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but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,

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but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the

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situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It

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is a big gamble. If I were poised to put my family's life savings on the

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roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife would not be scaremongering if she

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pointed out the potential consequences if I'd lost. She would

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not be negative by telling me that is my children's money I am risking.

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If I jumped off this roof it would change my point of view, but it

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would be worse than the point of view I have now. There is another

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issue here because the Scots are being asked to gamble on the

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Westminster parties, which they are already suspicious of, of delivering

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home rule. Alistair Darling could not even tell me if Ed Balls had

:19:34.:19:38.

signed off on more income tax powers for Scotland, so that is a gamble

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for the Scots. I feel the British state has had such a shake out of

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all this that they would be beyond idiots, they would be insane now to

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risk all of this flaring up again because whatever happens, if we win

:19:56.:20:00.

on Thursday, it is going to be narrowly. It will be a severe

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fissure in Scotland. A great deal of unpleasantness that we are already

:20:07.:20:11.

aware of. That could turn but we're still. It would be dicing with

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death, playing with fire, to let Scottish people down after Thursday

:20:19.:20:22.

if we narrowly win. If you narrowly win, and if there are moves to this

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home rule Mr Brown has been talking about, England hasn't spoken yet on

:20:30.:20:34.

this. Whilst England would probably not want to stop -- stop Scotland

:20:35.:20:41.

getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole

:20:42.:20:49.

procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home

:20:50.:20:54.

rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to

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introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional

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monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England It

:21:06.:21:11.

was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James

:21:12.:21:17.

Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not

:21:18.:21:23.

rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.

:21:24.:21:29.

It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns

:21:30.:21:32.

in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum

:21:33.:21:35.

Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign

:21:36.:21:46.

It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new

:21:47.:21:53.

great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,

:21:54.:21:59.

Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous

:22:00.:22:03.

Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.

:22:04.:22:10.

Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the

:22:11.:22:14.

referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron

:22:15.:22:19.

did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set

:22:20.:22:24.

out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,

:22:25.:22:30.

a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed

:22:31.:22:37.

improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a

:22:38.:22:41.

basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called

:22:42.:22:47.

Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the

:22:48.:22:53.

leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded

:22:54.:22:57.

with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of

:22:58.:23:01.

campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a

:23:02.:23:06.

break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes

:23:07.:23:10.

campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they

:23:11.:23:16.

accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when

:23:17.:23:24.

the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one

:23:25.:23:30.

week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the

:23:31.:23:35.

first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to

:23:36.:23:39.

head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that

:23:40.:23:44.

you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision

:23:45.:23:47.

if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally

:23:48.:23:56.

different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex

:23:57.:24:01.

Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the

:24:02.:24:06.

NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden

:24:07.:24:15.

-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex

:24:16.:24:22.

Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were

:24:23.:24:29.

other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like

:24:30.:24:32.

Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join

:24:33.:24:39.

the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?

:24:40.:24:42.

This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,

:24:43.:24:50.

Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are

:24:51.:24:54.

proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to

:24:55.:25:00.

stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and

:25:01.:25:04.

centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more

:25:05.:25:08.

devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the

:25:09.:25:13.

parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster

:25:14.:25:17.

some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister

:25:18.:25:21.

if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a

:25:22.:25:26.

good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'

:25:27.:25:32.

views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I

:25:33.:25:41.

am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from

:25:42.:25:44.

Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and

:25:45.:25:48.

I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly

:25:49.:25:53.

inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it

:25:54.:25:58.

would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30

:25:59.:26:03.

hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more

:26:04.:26:06.

about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.

:26:07.:26:10.

And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor

:26:11.:26:13.

of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.

:26:14.:26:15.

An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership

:26:16.:26:27.

of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations is

:26:28.:26:33.

that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's

:26:34.:26:43.

prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is

:26:44.:26:48.

not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two

:26:49.:26:54.

years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting

:26:55.:26:58.

for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes

:26:59.:27:04.

on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom

:27:05.:27:09.

because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free

:27:10.:27:13.

prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not

:27:14.:27:18.

in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the

:27:19.:27:23.

price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry

:27:24.:27:27.

about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing

:27:28.:27:35.

stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power

:27:36.:27:44.

generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,

:27:45.:27:49.

natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class

:27:50.:27:55.

universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the

:27:56.:27:59.

world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the

:28:00.:28:02.

revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but

:28:03.:28:06.

it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand

:28:07.:28:10.

still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections

:28:11.:28:14.

of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to

:28:15.:28:22.

keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and

:28:23.:28:27.

you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.

:28:28.:28:33.

That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the

:28:34.:28:38.

most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic

:28:39.:28:45.

stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee

:28:46.:28:48.

employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking

:28:49.:28:54.

about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to

:28:55.:29:00.

continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the

:29:01.:29:05.

minimum survival of the oil is 0 years. Please get your viewers to go

:29:06.:29:15.

onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The

:29:16.:29:27.

West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done

:29:28.:29:32.

because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil

:29:33.:29:38.

because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident

:29:39.:29:47.

and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn

:29:48.:29:53.

his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions

:29:54.:29:58.

and change are not just single event. What will happen here on

:29:59.:30:03.

Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being

:30:04.:30:08.

patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and

:30:09.:30:13.

abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice

:30:14.:30:19.

What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you

:30:20.:30:28.

against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes

:30:29.:30:32.

campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we

:30:33.:30:36.

are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a

:30:37.:30:44.

scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay

:30:45.:30:50.

on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be

:30:51.:30:53.

lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave

:30:54.:31:03.

the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your

:31:04.:31:09.

way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of

:31:10.:31:14.

business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be

:31:15.:31:17.

clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,

:31:18.:31:28.

because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England

:31:29.:31:34.

want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in

:31:35.:31:39.

Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the

:31:40.:31:42.

jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent

:31:43.:31:46.

and investing in social housing the people of England will say, we can

:31:47.:31:50.

do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In

:31:51.:31:55.

wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are

:31:56.:31:58.

fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the

:31:59.:32:03.

socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it

:32:04.:32:10.

work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in

:32:11.:32:14.

Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters

:32:15.:32:18.

in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can

:32:19.:32:22.

reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three

:32:23.:32:26.

Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,

:32:27.:32:31.

austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election he

:32:32.:32:34.

said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed

:32:35.:32:39.

Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see

:32:40.:32:44.

if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last

:32:45.:32:48.

Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The

:32:49.:32:51.

Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in

:32:52.:32:57.

Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do

:32:58.:33:02.

you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish

:33:03.:33:17.

general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you

:33:18.:33:20.

went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won

:33:21.:33:26.

a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why

:33:27.:33:30.

they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has

:33:31.:33:34.

thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and

:33:35.:33:40.

protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP

:33:41.:33:45.

who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the

:33:46.:33:49.

NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale

:33:50.:33:53.

people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public

:33:54.:33:57.

ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George

:33:58.:34:01.

Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish

:34:02.:34:06.

Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right

:34:07.:34:10.

in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,

:34:11.:34:14.

Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent

:34:15.:34:17.

Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an

:34:18.:34:23.

independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir

:34:24.:34:28.

Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the

:34:29.:34:33.

right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist

:34:34.:34:38.

vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence

:34:39.:34:45.

people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who

:34:46.:34:51.

fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.

:34:52.:34:55.

Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who

:34:56.:35:02.

engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I m

:35:03.:35:04.

still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,

:35:05.:35:11.

Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,

:35:12.:35:15.

I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,

:35:16.:35:19.

it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any

:35:20.:35:25.

young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't

:35:26.:35:29.

care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the

:35:30.:35:34.

unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who

:35:35.:35:41.

support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the

:35:42.:35:45.

campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the

:35:46.:35:49.

establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what

:35:50.:35:53.

they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your

:35:54.:35:57.

coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial

:35:58.:36:02.

control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and

:36:03.:36:07.

the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.

:36:08.:36:11.

Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.

:36:12.:36:14.

Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses

:36:15.:36:20.

if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking

:36:21.:36:25.

to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that

:36:26.:36:32.

you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.

:36:33.:36:35.

Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with

:36:36.:36:41.

the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.

:36:42.:36:48.

They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for

:36:49.:36:52.

freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So

:36:53.:36:57.

far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might

:36:58.:37:01.

happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to

:37:02.:37:03.

you later with George Galloway. Sweeping changes North

:37:04.:37:20.

of the border, but what will Will we have to tax

:37:21.:37:27.

our car to go across the border Will they stop us bringing

:37:28.:37:36.

out haggis and shortbread? You never know, so we?ve had

:37:37.:37:38.

to look at contingency plans. Kicking things

:37:39.:37:40.

off this week we have Ann Coffey, And we don't want to leave the Welsh

:37:41.:37:44.

out, so we also welcome Nigdl Evans, the Conservative MP for

:37:45.:37:49.

Ribble Valley. Ann, why do you think the polls

:37:50.:37:50.

now, are so close in terms I was campaigning in Scotland

:37:51.:38:00.

yesterday. It's an issue that is deeplx

:38:01.:38:07.

dividing a nation and I think It's dividing families,

:38:08.:38:09.

it's dividing neighbourhoods, passionate feeling on either side

:38:10.:38:13.

and that's what' being refldcted. Yes, I'll agree with what Ann has

:38:14.:38:14.

just said, but also the fact that the electorate ? not only those in

:38:15.:38:19.

Scotland, there are lots of Scottish people living in England and Wales ?

:38:20.:38:22.

who feel very angry that thdy're disenfranchised

:38:23.:38:25.

and I think that has skewed it Well, regardless of the restlt,

:38:26.:38:26.

Thursday's referendum vote will be And it's likely to mean big changes

:38:27.:38:30.

not just in Scotland, but also for Calls for greater powers

:38:31.:38:35.

from Westminster are growing and our reporter Stuart Pollitt s

:38:36.:38:41.

been listening. I'm Gonna Be

:38:42.:38:45.

(500 Miles) ? The Proclaimers. There's little more traditionally

:38:46.:38:55.

Scottish than curling. Yet the sport has more than

:38:56.:38:57.

a brush with this region, too. These are some

:38:58.:39:00.

of the traditional curling trophies We've had curlers here in the

:39:01.:39:01.

North West for over 150 years. As long as there's been curling

:39:02.:39:06.

in Scotland, we've curled hdre. But until Fylde Ice Arena opened

:39:07.:39:09.

recently, Lockerbie ` 150 mhles That meant fortnightly journeys to

:39:10.:39:11.

Scotland and that means, to these It has serious

:39:12.:39:16.

practical implications. It's not going to happen ovdrnight,

:39:17.:39:20.

we understand that, Will we have to tax

:39:21.:39:22.

our car to go across the border Will they stop us bringing

:39:23.:39:28.

out haggis and shortbread? So we've had to look

:39:29.:39:30.

at contingency plans. I once asked them, when we get

:39:31.:39:37.

there, whether we'll need a passport next year and they all laughed

:39:38.:39:40.

and so, Oh, it won't go through It will make a subtle difference

:39:41.:39:43.

but I hope it's only a subtle So that's the English view

:39:44.:39:49.

of those who play So let's play a traditional English

:39:50.:39:54.

sport with Scot. Hi, Jackie. Do you fancy

:39:55.:39:58.

a quick game of bowls with le? Poet and novelist Jackie Kax can

:39:59.:40:01.

see the case for independence. I've been in Peebles,

:40:02.:40:15.

Edinburgh and Glasgow and the energy and excitement of the possibility

:40:16.:40:22.

of change in the air is palpable. And she's detected excitement here,

:40:23.:40:25.

too. I was at the Manchester Eye Hospital

:40:26.:40:29.

today and the man that was putting drops in my eyes said to me,

:40:30.:40:31.

I'm green with envy for Scotland. But he said,

:40:32.:40:35.

why don't we have the same kind And I do think that there mhght be

:40:36.:40:37.

a knock`on effect in a positive way Peter thinks the English devolution

:40:38.:40:43.

ball is gathering momentum. Whatever happens

:40:44.:40:49.

on September the 18th, therd has to The constitutional status qto is now

:40:50.:40:51.

unsustainable for the rest Our group is committed to

:40:52.:40:56.

the idea of bringing process of government closer to the people

:40:57.:41:02.

that are impacted by decisions. So that means devolved government

:41:03.:41:05.

in some form or another. Liverpool's mayor, wrapping himself

:41:06.:41:10.

in the saltire this week, doesn t want an independent Scotland but he

:41:11.:41:13.

does want more devolved powdrs. We want a better focus on otr cities

:41:14.:41:17.

rather than just the capital. I think we're now winning that

:41:18.:41:21.

argument and I think we can win it better with a united argument with

:41:22.:41:24.

Scotland, England and Wales As the curlers wonder whethdr

:41:25.:41:26.

when they are next in Scotl`nd they'll fellow countrymen or

:41:27.:41:33.

foreign visitors, the result of the Scottish referendum has the

:41:34.:41:36.

potential to knock the political And meanwhile I've been talking to

:41:37.:41:38.

Professor David Denver, an expert in elections and Scotland

:41:39.:41:48.

at the University of Lancaster. I asked him how a vote

:41:49.:41:51.

for independence could affect In Scotland, at the moment,

:41:52.:41:54.

there are 40`odd Labour MPs In future Labour, therefore,

:41:55.:42:00.

are going to start, as it where minus 40`odd as compared to

:42:01.:42:06.

the current situation. By and large, the system will

:42:07.:42:11.

be favouring the Conservatives. So we could end up with

:42:12.:42:16.

a position where the North West is returning loads of Labour MPs

:42:17.:42:20.

but the governments are Torx? Whether this will annoy people

:42:21.:42:24.

in the North West so much that they'll say, m`ybe we

:42:25.:42:32.

should have devolution, that would There's certainly no immedi`te

:42:33.:42:35.

demand for devolution. But there's been a lot

:42:36.:42:42.

of government pressure in tdrms of devolving more powers, economic

:42:43.:42:44.

powers and that kind of thing.. All governments,

:42:45.:42:51.

since the 70s certainly, all governments have taken lore and

:42:52.:42:55.

more power into their own h`nds Personally, I'm quite in favour

:42:56.:42:59.

of devolving a lot of these things. But central government

:43:00.:43:04.

and politicians at the centre really prefer to hold on to their

:43:05.:43:09.

power because they're frightened that, say, politicians in Lhverpool

:43:10.:43:13.

will spend money like water and then And they want to control

:43:14.:43:16.

the finances. Professor David Denver,

:43:17.:43:22.

thank you very much indeed. And we're joined by Gina Dowding,

:43:23.:43:25.

a Green Party councillor on Lancashire County Council, `nd Paul

:43:26.:43:29.

Salveson from the Hannah Mitchell Foundation, which campaigns for more

:43:30.:43:31.

power for the North of Engl`nd. Gina, why is the Green Partx

:43:32.:43:36.

in favour of Scottish indepdndence? I'm a member of the Green P`rty of

:43:37.:43:40.

England and Wales and the Scottish Greens had their own independence

:43:41.:43:47.

vote in the Green Party in 0990 And we are supporting the

:43:48.:43:50.

Scottish Greens. Basically,

:43:51.:43:56.

this is a chance for huge change. It's a chance to challenge

:43:57.:43:59.

the status quo. It's not just the SNP Show

:44:00.:44:02.

in Scotland. What we are seeing is

:44:03.:44:06.

a whole range of community groups and progressive campaigns w`nting

:44:07.:44:09.

constitutional change. And this is

:44:10.:44:14.

the nearest they are getting to it? They seem to want to take control

:44:15.:44:17.

of their own affairs and th`t's Well, there's been quite a lot

:44:18.:44:23.

of devolution to Scotland over The Labour government did introduce

:44:24.:44:29.

that devolution recognising the argument that Scotland was different

:44:30.:44:35.

in many ways, culturally, and needed I just think we can get to `

:44:36.:44:40.

situation where there is th`t level of devolution which is of bdnefit to

:44:41.:44:46.

Scotland but at the same tile we keep those things that give us

:44:47.:44:50.

strength as a country, as a United Kingdom, a common economy,

:44:51.:44:54.

a common currency, and the value of that in terms

:44:55.:44:58.

of the wealth that we gener`te. I just think we can reach

:44:59.:45:04.

something that benefits us `ll and well, first of all, what is your

:45:05.:45:07.

position on Scottish independence? We say it is for the people

:45:08.:45:14.

of Scotland to decide. I?ve got a daughter who livds

:45:15.:45:20.

in Scotland. She's Lancashire born and bred

:45:21.:45:27.

like me. I don't think it will make `ny

:45:28.:45:30.

difference, but I'd like to see my four grandchildren growing up

:45:31.:45:32.

in a strong, democratic Scotland with some of that enthusiasl

:45:33.:45:36.

and involvement translating down Yes, because the real issue

:45:37.:45:40.

for you is that this could lead to, well, what for the north

:45:41.:45:45.

of England, for the North Wdst? I think it's stimulating a debate,

:45:46.:45:49.

which is what we're doing now, It's the start

:45:50.:45:51.

of a very long conversation. We want to see devolution to

:45:52.:45:56.

the north of England. Meaning directly elected regional

:45:57.:45:58.

government rather than unaccountable combined authorities,

:45:59.:46:03.

which is all that the established parties are offering

:46:04.:46:06.

us, I'm afraid, at the moment. So, we want to have some

:46:07.:46:09.

of the democracy that Scotl`nd and Wales, and also London,

:46:10.:46:12.

let's not forget there is a directly elected London Assembly,

:46:13.:46:16.

which has got huge resources. Well, number one,

:46:17.:46:18.

I love Scotland and I hope they stay part of the United Kingdom of

:46:19.:46:28.

Great Britain and Northern Hreland. Number two,

:46:29.:46:31.

the only people who are not being asked about this, about devolved

:46:32.:46:34.

government, seem to be the Dnglish. I know Tony Blair once famotsly said

:46:35.:46:38.

the best thing to do about the West Well, I've got say, after Thursday,

:46:39.:46:41.

irrespective of whether it's a Yes or No, we know that there are going

:46:42.:46:47.

to be extra powers given to Scotland, then the question needs,

:46:48.:46:51.

not only to be asked, but it needs to be answered

:46:52.:46:53.

by all the political parties. What's What should happen in the North West

:46:54.:46:55.

of England? I think the best form

:46:56.:47:00.

of devolution is to the indhvidual. Let's put taxation back

:47:01.:47:10.

in people's pockets, so lowdr taxes, put money back

:47:11.:47:13.

in people's pockets and then let But, as far as the other thhngs are

:47:14.:47:15.

concerned, I think it's wholly and completely wrong that Scotthsh MPs

:47:16.:47:23.

now come to Westminster and they vote on our hospitals, our dducation

:47:24.:47:26.

and we can't do that in Scotland. Do you support region assembly

:47:27.:47:30.

for the north of England? There's a lot of confusion

:47:31.:47:33.

about all of this as far as the constitutional settldment

:47:34.:47:38.

that we are going through. I find it amazing that Alex Salmond

:47:39.:47:42.

is horrified by the prospect that if they vote Yes then Scotl`nd

:47:43.:47:45.

comes out of the European Union He wants to go straight back

:47:46.:47:48.

into the European Union. Ask the Scottish people

:47:49.:47:51.

if they want to go into the European It's getting the power

:47:52.:47:55.

at the right level and, for me, Would Labour do

:47:56.:48:05.

anything differently? I think we do recognise

:48:06.:48:13.

the argument that was put forward by the city leader in Liverpool

:48:14.:48:16.

that cities are a great gendrator I think we would like to sed much

:48:17.:48:19.

more of the decisions about transport and much more of the

:48:20.:48:31.

budget being transferred to those Yes, but what Paul's saying is,

:48:32.:48:33.

the trouble with that is, they are not directly answerable to

:48:34.:48:41.

voters because there isn't a regional assembly as such or

:48:42.:48:45.

something similar to go with it Well, I?m not terribly

:48:46.:48:51.

convinced with that argument. We had a referendum in the

:48:52.:48:53.

North East a few years ago, which people very clearly dhd not

:48:54.:48:56.

want any more government. Now, in local elections,

:48:57.:48:58.

what you do is get a tendency not for accountability for

:48:59.:49:02.

the local councillors but that tends to be a referendum on what people

:49:03.:49:04.

feel about the national govdrnment. This idea that, somehow, if you have

:49:05.:49:07.

a regional government that there A quick reaction,

:49:08.:49:14.

Paul I think that the argumdnts for I totally agree with what Nhgel s

:49:15.:49:20.

saying. Let's devolve power to

:49:21.:49:24.

the most appropriate level. Some things work well

:49:25.:49:26.

on a local level. Some things work far better

:49:27.:49:29.

on a regional level. Most of the developed countries

:49:30.:49:32.

across Europe, Germany in particular, has got very

:49:33.:49:34.

strong regional government, which we Maybe, partly, we thought that

:49:35.:49:38.

might make Germany weaker. It?s getting power to

:49:39.:49:42.

the right level. Certain things like strateghc

:49:43.:49:47.

transport, the railways, police I think it's strange that

:49:48.:49:49.

Nigel is talking about... well,

:49:50.:49:59.

the Tories have resisted Scottish independence and yet they'rd talking

:50:00.:50:01.

about wanting to get out of Europe so the argument suits them when they

:50:02.:50:04.

like, but not in terms of... You can't believe the internal

:50:05.:50:07.

torture I am going through. I'm better off together at one level

:50:08.:50:11.

and I'm better of out on thd other. I can't believe the torture that I

:50:12.:50:14.

feel. If Scotland goes and all those MPs

:50:15.:50:16.

disappear, then as Professor David Denver said,

:50:17.:50:22.

chances are we will get much more in I can't imagine you are

:50:23.:50:25.

comfortable with that. Definitely not comfortable with

:50:26.:50:31.

that, but the point is the genie hs out of

:50:32.:50:33.

the bottle and things are changing. People aren't necessarily

:50:34.:50:36.

going to vote the same. We'll see huge changes

:50:37.:50:38.

in the way people look We are going to have to look

:50:39.:50:42.

at our constitution, reinstating democracy in England and

:50:43.:50:49.

an English parliament in sole way, That kind of scaremongering before,

:50:50.:50:53.

that people would lose their votes, Gina Dowding, Paul Salveson ,

:50:54.:51:03.

thank you both very much indeed Now,

:51:04.:51:11.

the tabloids have dubbed ond Wigan Possibly that's

:51:12.:51:12.

for spending taxpayers' mondy on premium rate sex chat lines, maybe

:51:13.:51:18.

it was for watching pornogr`phy on a work laptop or perhaps it was

:51:19.:51:20.

the sexist texts and abuse. Whichever, he's not resigning and,

:51:21.:51:24.

as Chris Rider reports, there's no easy way for opponents to

:51:25.:51:27.

get rid of him either. You wouldn't put up with it

:51:28.:51:31.

in any other job, would you? There's no excuse for that kind

:51:32.:51:36.

of thing and I don't think he should They can sack someone

:51:37.:51:44.

from a normal working place for that In Wigan town centre

:51:45.:51:48.

the behaviour of one councillor has This a man who has caused

:51:49.:51:51.

a great deal of upset And Emma Barton has put up

:51:52.:51:55.

with years of sexist abuse. It almost makes you self dotbt

:51:56.:52:00.

the way you've been working, It's very, very emotional,

:52:01.:52:06.

it really is. He's been suspended

:52:07.:52:12.

from the council twice for his Now, he's been using

:52:13.:52:14.

his council laptop to access pornographic material and using his

:52:15.:52:19.

mobile phone to call sex ch`t lines All this leaving a phone bill

:52:20.:52:21.

of almost ?2,400. The key point about all this is that

:52:22.:52:29.

Robert Bleakley is still a sitting councillor yet thd council

:52:30.:52:32.

here can't do anything about it The standards board set up

:52:33.:52:35.

by the government was scrapped in 2011 leaving the council without

:52:36.:52:38.

any powers to remove Mr Ble`kley. In fact, only the voters can

:52:39.:52:42.

do that at an election. In the meantime the council are

:52:43.:52:46.

telling Mr Bleakley not to talk I think it is an extraordin`ry

:52:47.:52:48.

measure and one that we are not really happy to introduce, but we

:52:49.:52:56.

are at our wits end as to what we But for all the criticism,

:52:57.:52:59.

Robert Bleakley has These remarks, or text mess`ges

:53:00.:53:03.

were made after the death of my mother and, I have to say

:53:04.:53:13.

in the early stages of a brdakdown. The local Labour MP says new

:53:14.:53:18.

measures might be required. I think this might be a timd, now,

:53:19.:53:27.

to look at whether recall of elected representatives to

:53:28.:53:30.

include councillors is something we But whatever the outcry and concerns

:53:31.:53:33.

of female council staff, Robert Bleakley remains a councillor

:53:34.:53:40.

and is, in fact, thinking of Nigel, I think a lot of people

:53:41.:53:43.

would be quite shocked that it Was it a mistake to scrap

:53:44.:53:48.

the Standards Board back in 201 ? Well, I think a lot of councillors

:53:49.:53:56.

were unhappy with the Stand`rds Board too because even on trivial

:53:57.:53:59.

things people were being suspended. I think we have to get

:54:00.:54:02.

the right balance. It's members of Parliament `nd it

:54:03.:54:04.

is police and crime commisshoners. The whole thing needs to be looked

:54:05.:54:11.

at when Ann and I get back from recess to Parliament one

:54:12.:54:14.

of the first bills will be looking I understand your point

:54:15.:54:18.

about the Standards Board because there was a great ddal

:54:19.:54:26.

of unhappiness about it, but wasn't the mistake not to replace ht with

:54:27.:54:29.

something more effective rather than Yes, clearly people are unh`ppy and

:54:30.:54:31.

the failure of the legislathon we introduced was that we didn't even

:54:32.:54:39.

consider what could happen hn the Now we've got Keith Vaz thrdatening

:54:40.:54:43.

to introduce legislation hilself in order to be able to remove

:54:44.:54:50.

people like Shawn. Ultimately, the power has to

:54:51.:54:54.

rest with the people themselves Certainly, at our level we will be

:54:55.:54:58.

looking in October at the possibility of legislation coming

:54:59.:55:01.

into an act before the next general election whereby when peopld vote

:55:02.:55:06.

for us in 2015, if they are not happy with us

:55:07.:55:09.

because something goes wrong think we have to have a rec`ll

:55:10.:55:12.

mechanism and we have to have it across the board for all eldcted

:55:13.:55:21.

representatives not just MPs. The only people who should be able

:55:22.:55:24.

to recall an elected represdntative I don't think it should be

:55:25.:55:28.

an unelected board What we need to find is a mdchanism

:55:29.:55:33.

for doing that, that on the one hand doesn't get you into a situ`tion

:55:34.:55:41.

where someone has been elected the year before and they have

:55:42.:55:45.

25,000 people who voted thel in and We have to find a method th`t goes

:55:46.:55:48.

back to asking the people who elected that person, do thex want

:55:49.:55:57.

to recall them, and we have to find I think that's what this Recall Bill

:55:58.:56:00.

will be about. Time for the rest of

:56:01.:56:11.

the week's news now in 60 Sdconds. Liverpool City Council's party

:56:12.:56:18.

leaders met this week to discuss the Ged Fitzgerald spent two ye`rs

:56:19.:56:20.

in charge of Rotherham Council, where leaders were criticisdd for

:56:21.:56:27.

failing to act over child abuse Scrap us ` the leader of

:56:28.:56:31.

Cheshire East Council wants his authority to merge with neighbouring

:56:32.:56:35.

Cheshire West and Chester. The County Council was split

:56:36.:56:38.

into two unitary authorities five Wirral Council blamed centr`l

:56:39.:56:40.

government cuts for 500 job losses. The authority needs to save a

:56:41.:56:53.

further ?45 million in thred years. The High court will review Salford

:56:54.:56:58.

Council's decision to cut transport Council wants to slash its fleet

:56:59.:57:01.

of minibuses to save ?0.5 mhllion. And the Chancellor and MP

:57:02.:57:09.

for Tatton, George Osborne, was in Manchester to announce plans for

:57:10.:57:11.

a new ?60 million research centre Well, also this week the sad news

:57:12.:57:15.

of the death of the Labour LP for Heywood and Middleton,

:57:16.:57:26.

Jim Dobbin, who was on the Mr Dobbin, who was 73, had served

:57:27.:57:27.

the constituency for 17 years. He died

:57:28.:57:33.

on a business trip to Poland. Ed Miliband was

:57:34.:57:36.

among those paying tribute. He was a warm man, he was a

:57:37.:57:42.

principled man, he was a decent man. He was a man who devoted

:57:43.:57:47.

his life to public service. And he was someone who was respected

:57:48.:57:53.

and, indeed, loved by colle`gues And, do you have good memorhes of

:57:54.:58:13.

Jim? I have fantastic memorhes of Jim. He was persistent and kept on

:58:14.:58:22.

campaigning. He was never one to seek publicity for what

:58:23.:58:28.

did things quietly and calmly on behalf of his constituents. Nigel.

:58:29.:58:35.

Yes, he was a good friend. He was a gentleman and

:58:36.:58:43.

very strong beliefs but he did it in such

:58:44.:58:51.

In fact, I agreed with most of them.

:58:52.:59:02.

remember once I sat next to him in the House of

:59:03.:59:18.

difference between sitting on your side and being on your side.

:59:19.:59:25.

And, basically he's right isn't it? that UKIP is getting at the moment.

:59:26.:59:29.

And, basically he's right isn't it? I think people will have vidws about

:59:30.:59:38.

that but this is not the first time a by`election has been

:59:39.:59:45.

is unusual but it's not the first time. I think that we need to

:59:46.:59:53.

making sure that the constituents are

:59:54.:00:00.

and dedicated MP. Nigel, wh`t do you think?

:00:01.:00:07.

think it is right that if the Labour Party

:00:08.:00:13.

The last time a sewer was built in London was 150 years ago, otherwise

:00:14.:00:18.

we would have a dirty River Thames. Andrew, back to you.

:00:19.:00:24.

Can the No campaign still pull it off?

:00:25.:00:29.

And even if they do is the whole of the UK now on the brink

:00:30.:00:32.

I'm joined now by John McTernan former adviser to Gordon Brown

:00:33.:00:49.

and Tony Blair, Alex Bell, former Head of Policy for the SNP

:00:50.:00:52.

and Lindsay McIntosh, the Times Scottish Political Editor

:00:53.:00:55.

And I'm delighted that Tommy and George have stayed too.

:00:56.:01:01.

No fighting has broken out either. Where

:01:02.:01:09.

No fighting has broken out either. have three full days to go

:01:10.:01:09.

No fighting has broken out either. polling day. What is the state of

:01:10.:01:12.

play? I think the poll of polls is accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital

:01:13.:01:20.

is to bring the undecided voters in, and they properly have about

:01:21.:01:25.

500,000. I think there are a lot of undecided people. I think they know

:01:26.:01:28.

which way they are leaning, but they haven't jumped. The hope of the no

:01:29.:01:33.

campaign is that they will go for the status quo on Thursday. How do

:01:34.:01:39.

you assess the state of the campaign now? The crucial thing is the big

:01:40.:01:43.

swing. The swing has come towards yes, so will the momentum carry it

:01:44.:01:52.

over the line? I will think it does, because it is an antiestablishment

:01:53.:01:56.

swell, and its people responding to standard Western as the politicians

:01:57.:02:01.

and saying that they want a new way -- Westminster politicians. I think

:02:02.:02:06.

that yes will sneak it. A referendum can be more important than a general

:02:07.:02:10.

election, and the Yes campaign have had the momentum. This was the week

:02:11.:02:15.

the momentum stopped. We started the week looking as though yes were

:02:16.:02:19.

going into the lead and then it stopped and most of the recent polls

:02:20.:02:22.

show a distinct lead for the no campaign. A distinct lead? It is one

:02:23.:02:28.

or two points. It is six in one poll, two in another, aiding

:02:29.:02:34.

another. The poll of polls is a good way of measuring, and is it

:02:35.:02:37.

statistically Nick -- nip and tuck? It is the week the momentum stopped.

:02:38.:02:42.

About a fifth of the electorate That will be a quarter of the

:02:43.:02:45.

turnout have voted already, by postal vote, and they are running

:02:46.:02:49.

very strongly towards no, so there is a whole bank of votes there. The

:02:50.:02:55.

postal votes are skewed to the over 60s, and that is the demographic

:02:56.:02:58.

that the Yes campaign have had the biggest trouble with. Absolutely,

:02:59.:03:04.

the Yes campaign faced a challenge amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and

:03:05.:03:08.

always based challenge with the older voters. Trust me, I was the

:03:09.:03:14.

decision the day the civil servants made it possible for the 16 to

:03:15.:03:18.

18-year-olds to vote, and we said there was a victory for the no

:03:19.:03:22.

campaign in that alone. The young tend to be conservative by nature. I

:03:23.:03:28.

think again that to say that the momentum has stopped when you had a

:03:29.:03:36.

20 point lead, this is a referendum whether people will speak and they

:03:37.:03:40.

will be heard. Except for the one poll which needs a huge health

:03:41.:03:46.

warning because of the size of the sample, the momentum is

:03:47.:03:48.

unquestionably all the way through August is going in the direction of

:03:49.:03:53.

yes. It hasn't quite continue to get to the 55/45 four yes that Alex

:03:54.:03:59.

Salmond thinks will be the result. I would agree with John. This was the

:04:00.:04:03.

momentum stalled. We saw the three leaders coming up, and that kept

:04:04.:04:10.

Alex Salmond off the front pages on the television and we had a raft of

:04:11.:04:13.

economic warnings which, although they were dismissed as

:04:14.:04:16.

scaremongering, they will have had a lot of traction with voters. What

:04:17.:04:20.

does the no campaign have to do in the final three days? It has to

:04:21.:04:26.

focus on the undecided, relentlessly. It has to do stick to

:04:27.:04:31.

the question of risk and keep pushing back on Alex Salmond to say

:04:32.:04:34.

it doesn't matter if the banks leave, it will all be all right on

:04:35.:04:39.

the night. The huge question amongst the undecided voters is about the

:04:40.:04:42.

economy. It is about jobs and currency, about business. That risk

:04:43.:04:47.

is what will crystallise in the ballot box on Thursday and that has

:04:48.:04:50.

to be the focus. What does the Yes campaign have to do? It has to drive

:04:51.:04:55.

home that the swing to the Yes campaign is motivated by people who

:04:56.:04:59.

want a different politics. They have decided amongst themselves that they

:05:00.:05:02.

want to change Scotland. The unfortunate thing is, even though

:05:03.:05:08.

the no campaign has had the chance to put up after proposals, they have

:05:09.:05:11.

failed. The Scottish people want their powers were a purpose and they

:05:12.:05:14.

say that only the Yes campaign can deliver that. There will be two days

:05:15.:05:18.

of relentless campaigning from today, Monday and Tuesday, then the

:05:19.:05:22.

media, the newspapers, including your own, will come out with the

:05:23.:05:28.

final poll, the ones that will be the closest to the day that the

:05:29.:05:32.

Scots actually go and vote. I think we will see more polling this week,

:05:33.:05:36.

but what is interesting is the extent to which the pollsters are

:05:37.:05:39.

picking up what is going on in the street. We know we have a huge

:05:40.:05:42.

number of voters who have never voted before and are not engage with

:05:43.:05:48.

politics, so what will they do? The third candidate in the election if

:05:49.:05:51.

I can would in this way, are the polls. They might have a lot of

:05:52.:05:54.

questions to answer on Friday morning. We were talking earlier

:05:55.:05:59.

with George and Tommy about the Labour Party's consequences in all

:06:00.:06:03.

of this. Gordon Brown, of course, has had a bit of a second coming as

:06:04.:06:07.

a result of this referendum. I just want to play a clip of Gordon Brown

:06:08.:06:10.

during the campaign and get a reaction. And I say this to Alex

:06:11.:06:21.

Salmond himself. Up until today I am outside front line politics. If he

:06:22.:06:24.

continues to peddle this deception, that the Scottish Parliament under

:06:25.:06:29.

his leadership, and he cannot do anything to improve the health

:06:30.:06:32.

service until he has a separate state, then I will want to join Joe

:06:33.:06:39.

Hanlon want in and securing the return of a Labour government as

:06:40.:06:43.

quickly as possible -- Johann Lamont. That was seen by some people

:06:44.:06:50.

as Gordon Brown implying he might stand for the Scottish Parliament.

:06:51.:06:53.

Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon Brown the saviour of Scottish

:06:54.:07:00.

Labour? I did a double black the other night -- double act with him

:07:01.:07:03.

the other night, and I must say he was a big beast all over again. He

:07:04.:07:08.

crossed the stage Meli dealt with the audience brilliantly. He has a

:07:09.:07:13.

certain presence, Gordon Brown, but he would really have to reinvent

:07:14.:07:18.

himself quite considerably. He is capable of doing, but the man who

:07:19.:07:23.

was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton, who pulled together the original red

:07:24.:07:27.

paper on Scotland, he would have to be that Gordon Brown rather than the

:07:28.:07:32.

Gordon Brown of some more melancholy events later. Tommy, you have both

:07:33.:07:35.

been critical of the state of the Scottish Labour Party. Rather than

:07:36.:07:39.

looking to Gordon Brown, which might be an interim solution, doesn't

:07:40.:07:42.

Scottish Labour have to find a new generation of people to reignite it?

:07:43.:07:47.

What George and I are agreed on and you have to remember this question

:07:48.:07:53.

of independence see us disagreeing passionately, and in most other

:07:54.:07:55.

things we find ourselves in agreement, one thing is clear,

:07:56.:07:59.

Scottish Labour is finished. They have lost the heart and soul of

:08:00.:08:05.

Scotland. The fact that we are discussing with four days to go an

:08:06.:08:08.

independence referendum that is neck and neck, Labour have failed

:08:09.:08:13.

miserably, absolutely miserably because they have given up

:08:14.:08:16.

everything they stood for. The SNP has picked it up. They have just

:08:17.:08:21.

taken on the bank -- mantle of a left of centre party and are picking

:08:22.:08:25.

up support. Gordon and the rest in my opinion, they represent the past.

:08:26.:08:29.

The yes vote on the Yes campaign represents the future. What do you

:08:30.:08:32.

say to that? There is nothing socialist about an SNP that wants to

:08:33.:08:39.

cut business tax by 3% in the pan. There is nothing socialist about an

:08:40.:08:42.

SNP destroying further education so they can give middle-class people

:08:43.:08:47.

free education. The Labour Party is alive and kicking. You can see if it

:08:48.:08:51.

is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to

:08:52.:08:58.

use this word, but they are kind of privatised from the Scottish Labour

:08:59.:09:01.

Party. They have rode their own fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump

:09:02.:09:06.

because official Scottish Labour did not want him leading their campaign.

:09:07.:09:11.

Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off the stage until it became so

:09:12.:09:15.

critical that he had to be brought back. I agree with John, the SNP

:09:16.:09:21.

talks left but acts right. That is before they get state powers. That

:09:22.:09:26.

is what is exciting about the referendum, it's not about the SNP,

:09:27.:09:30.

it's about the people deciding. What we have heard so far in the

:09:31.:09:33.

referendum campaign is that there is a desperate yearning in the

:09:34.:09:37.

electorate for real politics, purposeful politics and for the

:09:38.:09:41.

people to be represented. It is probably to the eternal shame of

:09:42.:09:44.

labour that they gave up that role and other people are now taking it

:09:45.:09:48.

upon themselves. How would you assess the state of the Labour

:09:49.:09:52.

Party? The problem is that it was demolished by the SNP in 2011 and

:09:53.:09:56.

what they should have done since then and in other circumstances is

:09:57.:09:59.

take a real look within themselves and brought forward new talent and

:10:00.:10:03.

policies and watch out what they stood for. They've been unable to do

:10:04.:10:06.

that because they are locked in a constitutional row. It is the plan

:10:07.:10:13.

of the Nationalists to fight the first Scottish general election as

:10:14.:10:16.

an independent nation as a nationalist party with its own

:10:17.:10:19.

programme. You don't all go your own way. Why don't you do that? You have

:10:20.:10:25.

more on your main reason to be, so why not go, left, right and centre

:10:26.:10:30.

question you are presuming you don't go the one-way. I do not see the

:10:31.:10:34.

function of the SNP after the yes vote. I think it is clear that there

:10:35.:10:38.

is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an SNP which attracts votes from the

:10:39.:10:42.

left and that is the one for me Whether that is called the SNP or

:10:43.:10:45.

something else, I don't know. I think the assumption that we are

:10:46.:10:50.

going into a mirror of old politics in a new world is just fundamentally

:10:51.:10:58.

flawed. That is interesting. Let's just bring in the English

:10:59.:11:01.

dimensional. In many ways, England has not spoken in this referendum

:11:02.:11:06.

campaign. Whether it is yes or no, it will, and to give you a flavour

:11:07.:11:10.

of what some in England might be thinking was saying, here is a clip

:11:11.:11:14.

from John Redwood. We are fed up with this lopsided devolution, this

:11:15.:11:20.

unfair devolution. Scotland gets first-class Devolution, Wales gets

:11:21.:11:22.

second-class devolution and England gets nothing. If Wales wants the

:11:23.:11:25.

same as us, they should have it and then there would be commonality so

:11:26.:11:30.

we could discuss and decide in our own countries, in our own assemblies

:11:31.:11:33.

in Parliament, all those things that are devolved. George, it was clear

:11:34.:11:41.

that if Scotland voted yes for independence it has huge

:11:42.:11:43.

implications for England than the UK, but it's also clear particularly

:11:44.:11:48.

after Gordon Brown's intervention, even if it is no, it has huge

:11:49.:11:52.

applications. You are, I suggest, agreeing with John Redwood that

:11:53.:11:56.

there should be an English boys It would be a step too far for me to

:11:57.:12:02.

agree with him -- English voice I appreciate I might have gone out on

:12:03.:12:06.

a limb. He is the voice of Mars the Balkan from Mars. My own

:12:07.:12:12.

constituents in Bradford are asking, what about us? All these things

:12:13.:12:16.

being done, all the extra mile is being travel to Scotland, what about

:12:17.:12:21.

us? Labour would be well advised to adjust quickly on this so that the

:12:22.:12:26.

John Redwood types do not steal the show. England has yes to use -- yet

:12:27.:12:33.

to speak. It's interesting when you hear a Labour backbencher in

:12:34.:12:36.

Scotland talk about a command paper. He is not in government. Gordon

:12:37.:12:42.

Brown is going round Scotland promising things and he has

:12:43.:12:45.

absolutely no chance of delivering them. The MPs in England will say,

:12:46.:12:50.

hey, what are you talking about We have never been discussed with that?

:12:51.:12:54.

We have not agreed with that. The only way people in Scotland will get

:12:55.:12:59.

the powers they deserve is by voting yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you

:13:00.:13:04.

think it is 60/40. I will stick with it, because we have an unprecedented

:13:05.:13:09.

election. 97% of Scotland is registered to vote. The working

:13:10.:13:12.

class will vote in numbers never voted before. George? 55/45 for our

:13:13.:13:21.

side. And if there is a rogue poll, the tek Levesley polled --

:13:22.:13:24.

technically flawed poll, which should not be published because it

:13:25.:13:29.

is so flawed, then we would be stretching towards what I am

:13:30.:13:32.

predicting already. I think in the last few days we will reach that.

:13:33.:13:38.

Come on. If the no campaign can get the silent majority out, they will

:13:39.:13:41.

edge it. You think they will win, but how much? They cannot give up in

:13:42.:13:48.

a second, a moment or a mile. It is that close. It will be won by the

:13:49.:13:53.

passionate view. I will go for a narrow yes victory. I'm the George,

:13:54.:14:01.

53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- I am with

:14:02.:14:06.

53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- to argue about that later. Thank you

:14:07.:14:09.

for being with us on the special Sunday politics from Edinburgh.

:14:10.:14:11.

That's all from us today in Scotland.

:14:12.:14:13.

Don't forget the Daily Politics will have continuing coverage

:14:14.:14:15.

of the referendum campaign all this week on BBC2 at midday.

:14:16.:14:18.

On Thursday night Huw Edwards will be in Glasgow and I will be

:14:19.:14:21.

in London to bring you live coverage of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm

:14:22.:14:25.

on a historic night for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

:14:26.:14:28.

And I'll be back next Sunday when we're live from the Labour

:14:29.:14:31.

Unless, of course, the referendum result is so tumultuous even the

:14:32.:14:39.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:14:40.:14:44.

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