23/10/2016 Sunday Politics North West


23/10/2016

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There's another candidate in the race to become Ukip's next

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leader: Suzanne Evans, the party's former deputy chairman,

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This man might have something to say about that.

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Paul Nuttal was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years.

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So is he now ready to throw his hat in the ring?

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The battle for Mosul: the Iraqi army and its allies advane

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on the country's second city which has been in the hands of

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But what will be the fallout from this key clash?

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Hi, Marie, how are you? George!

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A welcome home, but George Osborne admits

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one of the richest cities in the world. Should all private landlords

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be licensed to help tackle the squalor?

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And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

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panel in the business: Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn -

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The last leader was in the job a mere 18 days before she decided

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The favourite to succeed her then quit the party after a now infamous

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Ukip's biggest donor says the party is at "breaking point".

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This morning, the former Deputy Chairman, Suzanne Evans,

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announced that she would be running for the leadership.

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I've thought long and hard about this leadership bid,

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and one of the reasons I've perhaps delayed announcing it is

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because I wanted to be absolutely sure that I had the support

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And I can confirm that I have more than enough signatures

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on the nomination form already to be able to go forward.

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Let's not forget that 3,000 people signed a petition in support of me

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I know head office was besieged with letters in support.

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I would not be doing this if I didn't have the backing

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of our members, because our members are the most important

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Well, Paul Nuttall was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years

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and plenty of people saw him as a leader-in-waiting.

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Let's ask the man himself - Paul Nuttall joins me now.

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Yes. I've made the decision that I'm going to put my name forward to be

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the next leader of Ukip. I have huge support across the country, not only

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amongst people at the top of the party in Westminster and with the

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MEPs, but also the grassroots. I want to be the unity candidate. Ukip

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needs to come together. I'm not going to gild the lily. Ukip is

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looking over a political cliff at the moment. It will either step four

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step back, and I want to tell us to step backwards. You say it faces an

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ex-distension or threat, which means it's possible it has no future at

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all. Students of political history know that political parties take a

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long time to get going. They can disappear pretty quickly. Ukip is

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facing an existential crisis. What happened over the summer has put us

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on a... We could be on a spiral that we can't get off. But I believe I am

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the man to bring the factions together, to create unity within the

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party, and to build on the structure and get us ready for the common

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challenges. Why didn't you stand last time? Because I have spent the

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last four or five years of my life travelling around the country. I

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have done more Ukip meetings than anybody else, spending a lot of time

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away from home. With Brexit, I felt that my job and Nigel's job was done

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and we could hand over to the next generation. That doesn't seem to be

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the case, and maybe it's time for someone who is an old hand. I'm very

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experienced and I know the party inside out. Maybe it's time to step

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in and bring the party together. You told the Liverpool Echo on the night

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of July that you didn't wish to take on Nigel Farage, you didn't want

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that to happen to your family and friends. What has changed? The party

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is facing an existential crisis, and I want to make sure that Ukip is on

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the pitch to keep the ball into the open net we have in politics. We

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have a Conservative Party who is moving toward Brexit, but we have to

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be there too. Why would you be better than Suzanne Evans? Suzanne

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would be an excellent candidate. I thought the 2015 manifesto was the

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best out of all the political parties. I would be the best

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candidate because of my experience. I am not part of any faction within

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the party. Is she? I get on well with everybody, and I believe I

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could be the man to bring the party together. Do you get on with Iain

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Banks, -- Aaron Banks, who is supporting one of your rivals? Yes,

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I get on well with him. He is able to choose whoever he wants to be the

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next leader of the party. After November 28, the leadership

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election, we all say, the past the past. It becomes Daisy row for the

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new leader. We forget all that has before and move on. You won the

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referendum. Mrs May is adopting some of your policies, like grammar

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schools. What is the point of Ukip these days? Twofold. We don't have

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Brexit. Mrs May said she would not invoke Article 50 until the end of

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March, and we don't know if that will happen. We need to ensure a

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strong Ukip to make sure that Brexit really does mean Brexit. We have a

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huge opportunity in working class communities where the Labour Party

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no longer represents them. I believe Ukip can become the voice of working

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people. If you were the leader, would Ukip be a bigger threat to

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Labour in the north or the Tories in the South? You save Labour in the

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north, and people often to make that mistake. There's working class

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communities right across the country is. There are working-class

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communities in Bristol just as in Newcastle. We are second in a

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number of northern seats, and southern seats as well, and I

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believe the party can move into these communities. It can only do so

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if Ukip is on the pitch, and I intend to make sure that's the case.

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I don't think we have portrayed a good image over the summer. Is that

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called British understatement? A bit. It is dysfunctional. We have to

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move on beyond Nigel Farage. We have to build a strong national Executive

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Committee. We need to ensure our branches are ready for the fight and

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concentrate on local elections. I've got the experience. I'm now throwing

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my hat into the ring, and I'm the only person who can keep Ukip in the

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game. What role would you give Nigel Farage, if any? I will be the

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candidate of compromise. I would see what Nigel wanted to do. Would you

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keep in the leader of the freedom and democracy group in the European

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Parliament? There would have to be compromise on both sides, and we

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would need to talk about it. I don't know what Nigel wants to do. Do you

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think his support, his association with Donald Trump, helps Ukip win

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female votes in this country? Personally, I would not have gone

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out and campaigned or said anything about Donald Trump, but I don't

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think Ukip has come out and backed Donald Trump 100%. Personally, I

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wouldn't have even spoken about the American election, because I think

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the two candidates are quite appalling. Some up for us. If you

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win, what would be the hallmark of your Ukip leadership? The first

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couple of months would be ensuring that Ukip unifies. Saying no to

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factions, bringing people together. Suzanne Evans, Nigel Farage, all of

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the MEPs, and ensuring that Ukip can move forward. If we don't unify,

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Ukip will not be around for much longer. Thanks for being with us

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this morning. We won't have to wait too long

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to find out who Ukip's new leader will be -

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the winner will be announced Who would be the best leader for

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Ukip? I think the difference between the field a few weeks ago and today

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is that this field is a lot stronger. Whether it's Paul or

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Suzanne, I think... It is hard to say, with Aaron Banks and apparently

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Nigel Farage hacking another candidate, Raheem, but I want Ukip

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to be a strong force in British politics. I think the fact there is

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a stronger field now is good news for Ukip. Is it a Labour's worst

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nightmare in the north of England? It is. I think the personality

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difference and presentational difference is interesting. Suzanne

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Evans is going for the Conservative county vote. There's a lot to be

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taken there by Ukip. He would probably be more appealing to the

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Labour vote. It is interesting. At the moment, pollsters say that the

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Ukip vote splits pretty easily between Labour and Tory. But things

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always collapse. When they have made inroads into Tower Hamlets and

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Barking, they collapse, because they fight amongst each other so much.

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But not always with fists! Does Ukip have a future? And who would best

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secure that future? It does for at least two years, until we Brexit. We

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have to believe that that will happen. That was an impressive pitch

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there from Paul, certainly as the unity candidate, after the car crash

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we have seen on TV screens this morning. But it doesn't go beyond

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May 20 19. What then? There is no point being called the United

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Kingdom Independence party any longer. What will happen after May

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2019? If you want to hoover up votes of the back of Brexit, you need to

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start looking further ahead than two years. The person who wins that

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leadership contest is the person who will sum that up the best. We shall

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see. In June 2014, the group which calls

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itself the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant captured Iraq's

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second city, Mosul. Later that month the group announced

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it was establishing a 'caliphate', or an Islamic state,

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on the territories it This week 30,000 Iraqi troops, aided

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by Iranian-backed Shia fighters, Kurdish Peshmerga and Western air

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support, began the assault Then they spot a truck bomb

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from so-called Islamic State. They destroy it before

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it destroys them. These are the first steps

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in the battle for Mosul, the Northern Iraqi city IS has

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made its stronghold since 2014. Controlling the city of around

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2 million people means that they established governance,

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they establish a territorial base. This is what has obsessed everyone,

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because with a territorial base you are capable of doing more

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than if you are simply an insurgency movement in the fabric

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of another society. It's being billed as the biggest

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military operation in Iraq since the war in 2003, the biggest

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moment in the international effort Here is how the various forces

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are approaching the city. Heading to Mosul from the south,

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the elite troops of the Iraqi army. Known as the Golden division,

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trained and accompanied From the North, a force made up

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of Kurds, known as the Peshmerga, Also from the South,

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a militia made up of Shia fighters who have been accused

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of human rights abuses. British planes have bombed outlying

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villages, reportedly guided in by British personnel

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on the ground. To the North West, a corridor

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has been left for some of the 3000 plus IS fighters,

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in theory an escape route which could limit the bloodshed

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when fighting starts in the city. We've had 4-5 days of battle

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and it's taking place in the outlying villages

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and there have been some successes and some failures,

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but the momentum is building. And the real question will be

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when the attackers get towards the city itself,

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how strong are the defences? It will crack but it might crack

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within 48 hours or 2-3 weeks. IS has fought back,

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on Friday they attack sites in the city of Kirkuk,

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including a power station. The United Nations believes hundreds

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of thousands of families have been rounded up

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as potential human shields. The battle could be bloody,

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but what about when it's over? The Shia militias, the Iraqi army,

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the Peshmerga guerrillas, some of the Turkish elements,

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they all want a share of the action. They are in Mosul, not

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for altruistic reasons. They are there because they want

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to be part of whatever happens next. The biggest issue is how the Sunni

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majority in Mosul reacts to the Shia militias which have

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helped to liberate them. ARCHIVE FOOTAGE: When Sir Francis

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Humphrey went to Mosul If it all seems like something

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from the archive, when the Middle East went up in flames

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and was then carved up, it is because that is what is

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happening in Iraq right now. National identity has been cut

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across by other identities such And that means that putting together

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a so-called nation state again Almost certainly there will be

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a new form of Kurdish state, almost certainly in northern Iraq

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at the end of this crisis, and what is happening in Mosul

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is a microcosm of what is happening elsewhere across the Levant

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which is that it is melting down. Big questions, questions that

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come after the battle. The coalition forces are advancing

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but this is just the beginning. I'm joined now by the International

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Development Minister Rory Stewart. In a former life he was

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the coalition Deputy-Governor of two provinces in Southern Iraq following

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the Iraq intervention of 2003. Is there any doubt that at some

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stage Mosul will fall to the forces of Iraq and its allies? The first

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thing is that war is very uncertain and there are cliches about it being

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the graveyard of predictions and we don't want to make confident

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predictions but the basic structure is that there are 30,000 Iraqi

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forces outside and only a few thousand Daesh fighters inside and I

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would say it is overwhelmingly likely that the batter will one

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STUDIO: -- the battle the won by the Iraqi forces.

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June 2014 was a great success, they took a city of over in people and

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they created what they tried to create a million state of 7 million

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people, stretching across the Iraqi Syrian border, but since then they

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have lost territory quite rapidly. Now they are losing the outskirts of

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Mosul, and that is a fundamental blow. Islamic State is all about

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territory and holding state, that is what makes it different from

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Al-Qaeda. If they lose Mosul that will be a cynic -- significant blow

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to their credibility. Hillary Clinton said on Wednesday's

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presidential debate that when Iraqi forces with their allies including

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the United Kingdom gain control of Mosul they should continue to press

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into Syria to take back Raqqa which is the de facto capital of the

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caliphate, what is left of it, do we want Iraqi forces to pursue IS into

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Syria? Very important question. Delayed in Raqqa needs to come from

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people on the Syrian side of the border and that is an important

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principle -- the lead. In the end of that enemy, Islamic State, is a

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common enemy for odd members of the coalition including the Iraqi

:18:21.:18:27.

government. -- all members. There is likely to be a humanitarian crisis

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especially if it ends up with street to street fighting and IS are

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difficult to dislodge what are we doing about that? We are doing very

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detailed scenario planning. It is very uncertain what the scenario

:18:41.:18:44.

will be but much investment has gone into creating a network of camps,

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refugees STUDIO: Refugee camps around cash refugee camps, and that

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is where money, British money, ?40 million has gone recently into

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supporting that, especially in terms of medical support to people. The

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United nation's emergency response budget is ?196 million but only one

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third funded which sounds like we are putting up a big chunk of what

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is already being funded. Why is that? The international committee

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can't say they haven't seen this assault coming, and the humanitarian

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fallout they may see from it. You are absolutely right. We have seen

:19:29.:19:33.

it coming and we have been planning since debris and we have put in

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about ?167 million into this -- planning since February. There has

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been a change in the nature of the appeal, and if there is a lag in the

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accounting of it, but the money we need at this stage is in place and

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we do have the support structure in place for those refugees. You are

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right the United Nations is continuing with its appeal and is

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asking for more money at the moment. The converse magazine wrote this

:19:59.:20:01.

week that preparations for a big exodus of people leaving the city

:20:02.:20:05.

have been made -- Economist magazine. But confidence is not high

:20:06.:20:11.

in the preparations, is that a unfair conclusion? If you can

:20:12.:20:16.

imagine the different scenarios, it could be a few thousand and it could

:20:17.:20:19.

be a few hundred thousand coming out of the city through a front line

:20:20.:20:22.

where the war is going on, that is very difficult. You have to screen

:20:23.:20:27.

those people and disarm them, and keep families together, and

:20:28.:20:31.

transport them and you have to bring them into the refugee camps. The

:20:32.:20:35.

people working on this have been working on this for long time, we

:20:36.:20:38.

have mapped the different routes we have good camp infrastructure in

:20:39.:20:45.

place and we have people who have worked in south to dam and other

:20:46.:20:49.

areas who are putting their structures in place -- South Sudan.

:20:50.:20:53.

It is never easy but I think we have done everything we can in the

:20:54.:20:56.

preparation for this. What is the British role in what will probably

:20:57.:21:03.

be an even bigger issue, assuming that Mosul is liberated and retaken,

:21:04.:21:09.

the humanitarian crisis is dealt with, what role will we play in the

:21:10.:21:14.

rebuilding of Mosul? That will be crucial to the future of Iraq, the

:21:15.:21:18.

second-biggest city and it will need to be rebuilt. It will need to be

:21:19.:21:24.

rebuilt as a community as well as bricks and mortar. And eight Sunni

:21:25.:21:29.

community that is not harassed by the Shia. -- and eight. You are

:21:30.:21:37.

right. One of the core drivers is that the Sunni community felt

:21:38.:21:39.

excluded and they did not feel they have the trust from the Baghdad

:21:40.:21:44.

government. A lasting solution is stopping some of Islamic State

:21:45.:21:51.

coming back, that involves making sure the Sunni community have a

:21:52.:21:56.

stake in their future. That is making sure that the governing

:21:57.:22:00.

structures are in place. The UK's response is twofold, we have got to

:22:01.:22:05.

get the humanitarian aid right, that is the short term, people who might

:22:06.:22:08.

be malnourished, coming out of the front line. The second thing is

:22:09.:22:13.

working with the Iraqi government to make sure that as we rebuild Mosul

:22:14.:22:18.

we do so in a way that that population feels a connection to the

:22:19.:22:23.

Iraqi state. Islamic State is losing territory everywhere in the Levant,

:22:24.:22:28.

it is almost finished in Iraq, we think. It is down to one district in

:22:29.:22:34.

Libya, as well, just one small part of the town. I suppose the risk is,

:22:35.:22:40.

if life is becoming more difficult across these areas, it can start to

:22:41.:22:45.

look more in Europe and the United Kingdom as a place to continue its

:22:46.:22:49.

terrorist attacks? That is a real danger. You are right. This is a

:22:50.:22:55.

group which has proved over the last five years very unpredictable and it

:22:56.:22:59.

changes for it quickly full stop often it does unexpected things. In

:23:00.:23:05.

2009 its predecessor had been largely wiped out in Iraq and when

:23:06.:23:10.

it was under pressure in Syria it went back into Iraq, and in the past

:23:11.:23:14.

it didn't hold territory but now it holds territory, so you are right.

:23:15.:23:18.

There is a serious risk that as it gets squeezed in the middle East it

:23:19.:23:22.

will try to pop up somewhere else and Mac could include Europe and the

:23:23.:23:27.

United States -- that could. They say that is something they have

:23:28.:23:31.

focused on full stop we also have a big focus on counterterrorism

:23:32.:23:35.

security and making sure that we keep the United Kingdom and Europe

:23:36.:23:43.

say. One final question. -- say. -- safe. Maybe events in Mosul could

:23:44.:23:49.

add to the migration crisis in Europe, is that a possibility?

:23:50.:23:55.

Again, you are right, we have seen in Syria it can push migration, the

:23:56.:24:00.

biggest push the migration was the conflict in Syria, and that's the

:24:01.:24:03.

reason why we have but so much energy into getting those refugee

:24:04.:24:08.

camps in place and getting the humanitarian response in place --

:24:09.:24:12.

put so much energy. People will want to remain in their homes, this is

:24:13.:24:15.

their country, but we have got to make it possible for them and that

:24:16.:24:18.

means in the short term looking after their shelter and in the

:24:19.:24:23.

medium to long-term making sure they have livelihoods, jobs and an

:24:24.:24:27.

economic development which is why our support in Iraq is in the UK

:24:28.:24:31.

National interests because it deals with these issues of migration and

:24:32.:24:38.

terrorists. Thanks for joining us. I'm joined now by the Shadow Defence

:24:39.:24:41.

Secretary. Does Labour support British

:24:42.:24:58.

participation in this offensive? We fully support the participation in

:24:59.:25:02.

this offensive, extremely important move forward and we voted for this

:25:03.:25:08.

back in 2014. We are asking the government question is, of course, I

:25:09.:25:11.

was asking the Secretary of State this week about this very offensive

:25:12.:25:18.

but we are fully behind our RAF pilots out there and be trading that

:25:19.:25:21.

has been going on to help the forces on the ground. -- the training full

:25:22.:25:27.

stop that is very clear. I wonder if you'll lead it shares that clarity

:25:28.:25:32.

and that position. -- is your leader. This is what Jeremy Corbyn

:25:33.:25:35.

has said. What's been done in Iraq

:25:36.:25:37.

is done by the Iraqi government, and currently

:25:38.:25:39.

supported by the British government. I did not support it

:25:40.:25:41.

when it came up. Well, I'm not sure how successful

:25:42.:25:44.

it's been, because most of the action now appears to be

:25:45.:25:47.

moving in to Syria, so I think we He doesn't sound very supportive.

:25:48.:25:59.

The issue about Mosul, it has been very carefully prepared as Rory

:26:00.:26:01.

Stewart said and I hope we have learned the lessons from previous

:26:02.:26:07.

offensives where we haven't learnt sufficiently, and that is going to

:26:08.:26:11.

be crucial in this context. How the aftermath is going to be dealt with.

:26:12.:26:17.

Of course will stop that clip was from November last year, and things

:26:18.:26:22.

have changed. Two weeks ago he told the BBC" I'm not sure it is

:26:23.:26:27.

working", in reference to air strikes in Iraq, but it is working.

:26:28.:26:32.

We have got to see what happens in Mosul, it is a very high-risk

:26:33.:26:35.

operation, but we also have to face the fact that the people there are

:26:36.:26:40.

living under tyranny at the moment. We have to ask very cirrus question

:26:41.:26:47.

shall stop he says he's not sure it is working, when Mosul is the last

:26:48.:26:50.

major target be cleared of Islamic State in Iraq. The combination of

:26:51.:26:55.

Allied air power has worked, why is he not sure it is working? Because

:26:56.:26:59.

we have seen difficulties in the past. But this was two weeks ago. It

:27:00.:27:05.

is essential that the work is done, both planning for the refugees as

:27:06.:27:08.

Rory Stewart referred to, but also in terms of reconstruction of the

:27:09.:27:11.

city and its community as you mentioned. These are vital. This was

:27:12.:27:18.

about the ability to make progress with Allied air power, special

:27:19.:27:22.

forces in Iraq, on the ground, do you accept so far that has a

:27:23.:27:27.

strategy that seems to be working to read Iraq of Islamic -- to read Iraq

:27:28.:27:39.

of Islamic State the question of the car began placement. Ulloa -- we

:27:40.:27:52.

can't be complacent. The problems they are creating where ever they

:27:53.:27:55.

are urged that we must continue to pursue them. This is the first time

:27:56.:28:01.

we have spoken to since you have become the Shadow Defence Secretary.

:28:02.:28:03.

I hope we will have a longer interview. Will Labour's next

:28:04.:28:09.

manifesto include a commitment to the renewal of Trident? It will. We

:28:10.:28:15.

made that commitment in 2007, that is a firm commitment and we will

:28:16.:28:19.

honour that to our coalition allies and our industrial partners and that

:28:20.:28:21.

is the vote which was taken democratically and repeatedly has

:28:22.:28:25.

been reaffirmed by Labour conference and we are a democratic party vote

:28:26.:28:31.

up you have squared that with Jeremy Corbyn? He's in favour of democracy

:28:32.:28:37.

and he understands the situation, but we also want to push for the UK

:28:38.:28:41.

to play a much bigger role on the international stage on multilateral

:28:42.:28:46.

disarmament talks. You were very clear there, I thank you for that.

:28:47.:28:51.

Support for Trident will be in the next Labour manifesto. What has

:28:52.:28:55.

happened to Labour's review of Trident policy? That review has been

:28:56.:29:01.

taking place over the year, we had a very clear reaffirmation in the

:29:02.:29:05.

conference boat this year, we are reaffirming our commitment to

:29:06.:29:09.

Trident -- vote. The review can't change that? There is a process of

:29:10.:29:15.

review and a fair number of issues related to defence, all parties do

:29:16.:29:21.

this. Of course. The review can't change the commitment to Trident? We

:29:22.:29:25.

are not changing the commitment to Trident. Russia is now the main

:29:26.:29:31.

strategic threat to this country? It is a major strategic threat and we

:29:32.:29:34.

have got to work with our Nato allies very closely and make sure

:29:35.:29:37.

that we respond and that we do not let things pass. For example, we

:29:38.:29:42.

should be calling out Russia for the way it has been a bombing

:29:43.:29:47.

humanitarian aid and we should be taking them to international court

:29:48.:29:50.

over this, but we should also be strengthening sanctions, somewhat

:29:51.:29:57.

imposed over Ukraine. We try to do that, but the Italians wouldn't let

:29:58.:30:02.

us. The Italians did not want to participate in the European

:30:03.:30:04.

initiative but that doesn't stop individual countries for the Britain

:30:05.:30:11.

should step up? Yes, we should look at what is practical to impose.

:30:12.:30:13.

Thanks for joining us. Mosul is not the only major battle

:30:14.:30:19.

being waged in the Middle East. The city of Aleppo in northern Syria

:30:20.:30:22.

has seen some of the heaviest bombardment since Syria's

:30:23.:30:25.

five-year-long civil war began. This week Russian warships,

:30:26.:30:28.

in a deliberate show of power, sailed west through the English

:30:29.:30:31.

channel en route to Syria. Nato says it's Russia's "largest

:30:32.:30:35.

surface deployment" since the end of the Cold War in what is thought

:30:36.:30:38.

to be preparation for a final assault

:30:39.:30:41.

on the besieged city of Aleppo. In the city itself fighting

:30:42.:30:45.

resumed overnight - following a 3-day ceasefire -

:30:46.:30:49.

with more air strikes and heavy clashes in the city's

:30:50.:30:54.

rebel-held eastern districts. Almost 500 people have been

:30:55.:30:57.

killed and 2,000 injured since Syrian government forces,

:30:58.:31:00.

backed by Russian air strikes, This week Theresa May condemned

:31:01.:31:04.

Vladimir Putin's involvement in Syria, accusing Moscow

:31:05.:31:12.

of being behind "sickening atrocities" in support

:31:13.:31:14.

of President Assad's regime. But European leaders are divided

:31:15.:31:18.

on how to respond and, with the United States preoccupied

:31:19.:31:22.

with domestic politics, President Putin senses this

:31:23.:31:24.

is his moment to bring the Syrian I'm joined now by the BBC's former

:31:25.:31:28.

Diplomatic and Moscow Correspondent, Bridget Kendall, who is now Master

:31:29.:31:36.

of Peterhouse College in Cambridge. Welcome. Good to see you in the BBC

:31:37.:31:50.

studio again. Let me put up this satellite image of Aleppo here, to

:31:51.:31:56.

get an idea of the scale. It was the biggest city in Syria. It was the

:31:57.:32:01.

commercial capital and a huge cultural hub as well. Almost the New

:32:02.:32:06.

York of Syria, to give you an idea of its significance to the country.

:32:07.:32:12.

Let me show you now how it's been divided. The rebels are now in

:32:13.:32:16.

control of the eastern part, about eight miles long and three miles

:32:17.:32:23.

wide there, they're in purple. They are under great attacks still. Is it

:32:24.:32:27.

inevitable that that purple part falls to the regime? That is what

:32:28.:32:37.

President as Saad, the Russians and the Iranians hope. The fierce

:32:38.:32:42.

bombardments we have seen is part of that. I'm reminded very much in the

:32:43.:32:47.

Russian tactics of what happened in grudgingly in Chechnya in 2000, when

:32:48.:32:52.

the Russians said, a warning for all civilians to lead, and then they

:32:53.:32:58.

went ahead and they basically raised it to the ground. They are talking

:32:59.:33:02.

about Al Nusrah as being one of the rebel groups. They got rid of all of

:33:03.:33:08.

the terrorists. They talk about it being an Al-Qaeda offshoot. The

:33:09.:33:12.

purpose of going in is to get rid of them. You get the civilians out and

:33:13.:33:17.

then you take it. But this isn't like Chechnya. It is much more

:33:18.:33:22.

complex. We have seen an attempt to take Aleppo before, and then there

:33:23.:33:26.

was a rebel counter offensive. It's not so certain. And there are so

:33:27.:33:30.

many different parties involved. We have seen the alarm in the west of

:33:31.:33:35.

the extent of the civilian casualties. There have been

:33:36.:33:45.

rumblings in the west of, shouldn't the United States do something?

:33:46.:33:47.

Shouldn't they stop the Syrian air force? This Russian aircraft carrier

:33:48.:33:51.

steaming its way towards the Eastern Mediterranean is a symbolic gesture,

:33:52.:33:56.

both to its own people, but also to the West, to say, don't get involved

:33:57.:34:02.

in Aleppo if we go ahead. Don't try and stop us because we could up the

:34:03.:34:08.

ante. They have not been great visual pictures, because the

:34:09.:34:12.

aircraft carrier looks a bit clapped out, belching out smoke! If the

:34:13.:34:19.

rebel controlled area does fall, it would be seen as a great victory for

:34:20.:34:24.

President as Saad and his Russian allies. What is the aim of Russia

:34:25.:34:29.

here? What would they then do, if Aleppo Falls? It is part of a plan

:34:30.:34:33.

that President Putin set out in his UN speech in 2014, before Russia

:34:34.:34:40.

went into Syria. The aim is to put President Assad back in charge.

:34:41.:34:43.

President Putin said this weekend that either is Assad in Damascus, or

:34:44.:34:49.

its Al Nusrah. There is nothing in between. They want to eliminate the

:34:50.:34:53.

argument for a moderate opposition. They want to make it plain that the

:34:54.:34:59.

only way to get a stable Syria is to have Assad back in charge. Even sue

:35:00.:35:07.

argue for a rump steak lit, leaving aside what is happening with IAS.

:35:08.:35:16.

They have already said they want to have an enlarged military presence

:35:17.:35:20.

at their bases. And they have a big naval base. It is. It is a chance to

:35:21.:35:27.

push for this when he sees the West is being distracted and divided.

:35:28.:35:34.

Europe and America, by elections and so on. Just before the US elections.

:35:35.:35:39.

The Americans are worried about that, Europeans are being distracted

:35:40.:35:44.

by Brexit. He can push to his maximum advantage now, before there

:35:45.:35:49.

is a new US president. If they do take that part of Aleppo, and that

:35:50.:35:59.

part of northern Syria, does Mr Putin want us to recognise, to

:36:00.:36:04.

admit, that that is now his sphere of influence? I think the rhetoric

:36:05.:36:09.

from the Russians is that they want the West to recognise that they are

:36:10.:36:14.

an equal powerful partner. It's not just the US that runs the writ in

:36:15.:36:19.

the Middle East. Russia is as important as it is. It is engaging

:36:20.:36:25.

with Saudi Arabia and has mended fences with Turkey. Syria is the

:36:26.:36:30.

place from which it can launch its message that it is a big player in

:36:31.:36:35.

the Middle East. Russia wants the West to understand that this isn't a

:36:36.:36:40.

country that was dismembered after the end of the Soviet Union and is

:36:41.:36:45.

now a week. It is back, and it is strong. That is an important

:36:46.:36:51.

message. Looking at the economy. It is in recession. GDP has been

:36:52.:36:55.

falling, partly because of the price of oil. It is highly dependent on

:36:56.:37:01.

hydrocarbons, and is expected to fall again. Its people are falling

:37:02.:37:06.

again. People don't realise how small the Russian economy is. Its

:37:07.:37:11.

GDP is about the size of Italy's. It is smaller than the UK economy.

:37:12.:37:17.

Bigger than it was 15 or 20 years ago. But so is Britain's does it

:37:18.:37:26.

help to take people's mind of this? A huge shock to the Russian economy

:37:27.:37:32.

was a drop in the price of oil and a price of gas. A drop in the price of

:37:33.:37:38.

the ruble as well. This is hurting the people of Russia. On the one

:37:39.:37:43.

hand, it is the war in Syria, which is very important for Russia to sort

:37:44.:37:47.

out that part of the world and dispensed terrorists who might be

:37:48.:37:55.

danger to -- is dangerous to Russia. But he had also has presidential

:37:56.:38:00.

election is going up. They are supposed to be 2018, but some feel

:38:01.:38:05.

he will bring them forward to 2017, because the economy is not doing so

:38:06.:38:10.

well. But you need a good story for the Russian people. Thank you very

:38:11.:38:11.

much. We say goodbye to viewers

:38:12.:38:14.

in Scotland who leave us now Hi, Marie, how are you?

:38:15.:38:40.

George! A warm welcome home for the local

:38:41.:38:44.

MP, but did this backbencher I don't think, you know now,

:38:45.:38:47.

I properly understood the sense that people had in many communities

:38:48.:38:51.

and I think many people used the EU And here for their weekly

:38:52.:38:54.

confessional are Andrew Bingham, the Conservative MP for High Peak,

:38:55.:38:57.

and Barbara Keeley, the Labour MP for Worsley and Eccles South,

:38:58.:39:00.

who was recently promoted to Shadow Minister for

:39:01.:39:02.

Mental Health and Social Care. So, Barbara, why have

:39:03.:39:04.

you be joined the Cabinet? So, Barbara, why have

:39:05.:39:06.

you rejoined the Cabinet? I actually wasn't in

:39:07.:39:08.

the Cabinet before. I really have worked on social care

:39:09.:39:10.

and believe that the issues that now in a role to take forward

:39:11.:39:15.

are the most important issues I'm very pleased to be

:39:16.:39:18.

offered that job. Labour this week said that

:39:19.:39:21.

Angela Eagle's complaints were upheld about homophobic abuse.

:39:22.:39:23.

I know. And they said that the Wallasey

:39:24.:39:26.

constituency party was divided and toxic.

:39:27.:39:28.

Do you think it is? Well, I don't know personally,

:39:29.:39:33.

but clearly no MP should have that situation in their local party

:39:34.:39:36.

and I support Angela as a colleague, she's a great colleague,

:39:37.:39:39.

she doesn't deserve to have abuse of any sort, particularly

:39:40.:39:41.

not homophobic abuse, What about the party

:39:42.:39:43.

more broadly, though? Well, we don't have that

:39:44.:39:48.

so much in Salford. It's difficult to say when it's

:39:49.:39:52.

not your own local situation, but I think we've been through not

:39:53.:39:59.

the easiest of summers, have we? And I think it's important

:40:00.:40:06.

now that we unite. We've got an enormous job in front

:40:07.:40:08.

of us in Parliament and holding the government to account,

:40:09.:40:11.

in my case in terms And, you know, really we need

:40:12.:40:14.

to get on with doing that. Andrew, your party appears to be

:40:15.:40:18.

split about whether we should MPs and ministers saying

:40:19.:40:20.

that they should get on with it before Brexit

:40:21.:40:24.

start causing a problem. I don't think we should

:40:25.:40:26.

have an early election at all, I don't think the party

:40:27.:40:32.

is split on it. I speak to colleagues and,

:40:33.:40:34.

no, we don't want The General Election is 2020,

:40:35.:40:36.

the Fixed-term Parliaments Act took care of that and,

:40:37.:40:39.

following the Brexit. The last thing we need is more

:40:40.:40:43.

uncertainty with the General Election, so I would not

:40:44.:40:47.

support a General Election until when it is scheduled in 2020,

:40:48.:40:49.

which is what As Barbara's in-box gets busier,

:40:50.:40:52.

one local MP with less The former Chancellor is now

:40:53.:40:56.

a backbencher after Theresa May Our Cheshire reporter, Phil McCann,

:40:57.:41:00.

caught up with Mr Osborne in his Tatton constituency to chat

:41:01.:41:03.

through Brexit, boundary changes Hi, Marie, how are you?

:41:04.:41:05.

George! I'm fine.

:41:06.:41:12.

Aw, it's great to see you. It's a cafe, it's a community

:41:13.:41:15.

centre, it's a place where people, if they want help getting a job,

:41:16.:41:25.

come, you look after our elderly residents,

:41:26.:41:28.

look after young people. 59-year-old carpenter

:41:29.:41:32.

from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, grafted all his life

:41:33.:41:35.

and couldn't get a penny! It gives you time to think a bit

:41:36.:41:40.

about life, think about what you can do for the community you represent,

:41:41.:41:44.

think about mistakes I've made and how we can put them right,

:41:45.:41:48.

not least, you know, why the country voted the way

:41:49.:41:52.

it did in the referendum that You can't talk about mistakes

:41:53.:41:56.

you've made without me asking Look, I don't think, you know,

:41:57.:42:00.

I properly understood the sense that people had in many communities,

:42:01.:42:10.

particularly in the North of England, that they were completely

:42:11.:42:13.

disconnected from the system and from the way

:42:14.:42:15.

our country is governed, that they felt angry about things,

:42:16.:42:19.

and I think many people used the EU referendum

:42:20.:42:22.

to express that anger. I aim to form a proper and full

:42:23.:42:24.

coalition between the Conservatives When I became the Chancellor

:42:25.:42:27.

in 2010, the country was in an economic crisis

:42:28.:42:35.

and all of my efforts, my energy, But having fixed the economy,

:42:36.:42:38.

then it's the chance to say, "Well, what can we do for

:42:39.:42:46.

communities who feel left behind?" You know, sometimes the statistics

:42:47.:42:53.

can I think mask economic insecurity out there,

:42:54.:42:56.

that isn't always obvious. Tonight at Ten, the radical plans

:42:57.:42:57.

to change the parliamentary The plans would mean, for example,

:42:58.:43:00.

Wales losing a quarter of its seats and dozens of MPs,

:43:01.:43:06.

including Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne, looking

:43:07.:43:08.

for a new constituency. You know, the communities don't

:43:09.:43:12.

disappear, they're still here, and I am going to absolutely

:43:13.:43:17.

be determined to represent a Cheshire constituency

:43:18.:43:20.

at the next General Election and then, of course, it will be

:43:21.:43:22.

up to the people of Cheshire Which would inevitably

:43:23.:43:26.

mean you having to fight it out with somebody,

:43:27.:43:31.

because there's going to be one fewer seat.

:43:32.:43:33.

Let's see what happens. But I'm pretty confident,

:43:34.:43:35.

not only that we'll go on having great Conservative MPs in Cheshire,

:43:36.:43:38.

but I will be one of And you won't be disappearing off

:43:39.:43:40.

to some safe seat in the South? More than 2,000 jobs to go

:43:41.:43:45.

in Cheshire as AstraZeneca I'm told last-minute intervention

:43:46.:43:48.

from the local MP, one George Osborne, stopped

:43:49.:43:54.

the company's real intentions - That was a really very difficult

:43:55.:43:57.

day, but this facility is amazing and the stuff happening

:43:58.:44:04.

here is better than anything The Northern Powerhouse

:44:05.:44:06.

is what I want to be remembered for, There was a member of Parliament

:44:07.:44:14.

who threw everything in to reversing that North-South gap,

:44:15.:44:19.

getting the cities and counties of the North working together

:44:20.:44:21.

and, as a result, make a difference Philip Hammond is the Chancellor,

:44:22.:44:24.

so Philip Hammond moves from the Foreign Office to

:44:25.:44:29.

next door, into Number 11. I can also tell you he's resigned

:44:30.:44:34.

from the government, that's what we're hearing,

:44:35.:44:37.

that Osborne is not going to get a job in the government,

:44:38.:44:40.

or he's been offered one and hasn't taken it,

:44:41.:44:44.

but we understand that he has And would you to serve

:44:45.:44:46.

in the Cabinet and possibly I'm happy where I am at the moment,

:44:47.:44:50.

doing my job. It's very refreshing to get out

:44:51.:44:53.

of the armoured cars, get out of the gates, from behind

:44:54.:44:56.

the gates of Downing Street, and go back to what in the end

:44:57.:45:00.

the job is all about, which is representing

:45:01.:45:03.

an area in Parliament But you wouldn't say no

:45:04.:45:05.

if you asked, though? But you wouldn't say no

:45:06.:45:08.

if you were asked, though? Phil McCann reporting there,

:45:09.:45:11.

with George Osborne, who thinks the Northern Powerhouse

:45:12.:45:14.

should be his legacy. Well, I mean, from the point of view

:45:15.:45:16.

of Greater Manchester MP, which I am, you know,

:45:17.:45:20.

it's good to have the powers that you've got over health

:45:21.:45:23.

and social care, which was part of the devolution,

:45:24.:45:31.

but to be honest, the issue We've got a 1.2 billion at least

:45:32.:45:33.

Black hole and the finances for our health and social care.

:45:34.:45:37.

I mean, Northern Powerhouse? All across the North West,

:45:38.:45:39.

our local authorities are really pressed, they had their funding cut,

:45:40.:45:42.

funding has really been cut for social care,

:45:43.:45:44.

so all the things that people really need day-to-day, you know,

:45:45.:45:47.

he's responsible for cutting, and has left us in that state,

:45:48.:45:49.

really, so I don't think Is it that the legacy, then, Andrew?

:45:50.:45:52.

No, I think... He's handed over the powers,

:45:53.:45:57.

but not the money to make it work? I disagree with that,

:45:58.:46:00.

as you would expect. I mean, George was handed a very

:46:01.:46:02.

difficult job back in the days of the coalition government,

:46:03.:46:05.

as the famous letter, But he's already made it possible

:46:06.:46:07.

for councils to have the 2% levy on the council tax for social care,

:46:08.:46:11.

which is good... But it's not enough,

:46:12.:46:13.

that's the point. And there's the Better Care Fund,

:46:14.:46:15.

where there is another "one point something" billion pounds available.

:46:16.:46:18.

In 2019. By 2019, so the money

:46:19.:46:19.

is going in there. But I do think in terms

:46:20.:46:22.

of social care... But Barbara is right in that

:46:23.:46:25.

will not cover the increase in cost But it's putting more

:46:26.:46:28.

money to local councils. The council will become more

:46:29.:46:31.

autonomous as we go on. So they will not be reliant

:46:32.:46:33.

on central government funding. But I do think the whole issue

:46:34.:46:35.

of adult social care, there are several what I would

:46:36.:46:38.

call several unexploded I think adult social care is one

:46:39.:46:40.

that we need to keep looking at. We talk about things

:46:41.:46:45.

like obesity in the young. I think that's something else

:46:46.:46:47.

we need to keep looking at, because they are the things

:46:48.:46:49.

that are going to manifest themselves further down

:46:50.:46:52.

the line in different ways, particularly in terms

:46:53.:46:54.

of the health service as well. Barbara, you can't deny though

:46:55.:46:56.

that he has put the focus on the North?

:46:57.:46:58.

He has talked up the North? He has put the focus on the north,

:46:59.:47:01.

but there's the danger giving powers, which is welcome -

:47:02.:47:06.

I mean, I know that the local council leaders really welcome

:47:07.:47:09.

the powers, in different parts of the North West, Merseyside

:47:10.:47:11.

as well as Greater Manchester - but they are just going to get

:47:12.:47:13.

the blame, you know, If we can't hold health and care

:47:14.:47:16.

together, and it's no good giving finance for social care in 2019,

:47:17.:47:21.

and many councils, like Salford, Manchester, cannot raise enough

:47:22.:47:23.

out of the 2% precept But council leaders are saying

:47:24.:47:27.

finally they have the freedom to decide how to spend

:47:28.:47:35.

the money themselves. Yeah, but you're spending not enough

:47:36.:47:36.

money, and that's no help. I mean, this year, there wasn't

:47:37.:47:39.

enough in that 2% to even pay the National Living Wage increase,

:47:40.:47:42.

which had to be paid, so there's a confusion of policy

:47:43.:47:45.

that come out and yet not the funding and it's not fair,

:47:46.:47:48.

it's not at all reasonable to leave council leaders

:47:49.:47:50.

as being the ones to sort that out. The 2% levy, though,

:47:51.:47:53.

gives the opportunity to raise an extra ?2 billion for social care.

:47:54.:47:55.

But if 2 billion is not enough... But there's the Better Care Fund,

:47:56.:47:59.

which will also put, I think it's about another

:48:00.:48:01.

?1.5 billion... In 2019!

:48:02.:48:03.

..by 2019. But as I said, we need to keep

:48:04.:48:04.

looking at finding ways of doing it and finding better ways

:48:05.:48:08.

of social care. Well, on Twitter,

:48:09.:48:10.

regrets about Brexit. Do you think leading Project Fear

:48:11.:48:11.

was his biggest mistake? I think the whole campaign on the EU

:48:12.:48:15.

referendum, from both sides, had some questions to answer -

:48:16.:48:18.

the comments and statements made I voted to leave the European Union,

:48:19.:48:21.

but I was quite clear with my constituents

:48:22.:48:26.

that it was a referendum, it wasn't an election

:48:27.:48:30.

where I was asking people to vote They were voting for themselves

:48:31.:48:32.

and I made both sides of the arguments to my constituents,

:48:33.:48:37.

make them available, and I was asked by the BBC just

:48:38.:48:40.

before the 23rd of June which way would the High Peak vote and I said

:48:41.:48:44.

I think it'll be very close. My constituency voted marginally

:48:45.:48:47.

by about 600 to leave. And I think there were

:48:48.:48:53.

some misjudgements made. I think the motivation for people

:48:54.:48:55.

leaving, to leaving the EU, were various, but I do think

:48:56.:48:57.

there was an aspect of people thinking, "Well, we're sort

:48:58.:49:00.

of getting a bit fed up of politicians telling

:49:01.:49:03.

us what's good for us, and we're going to make our mind up

:49:04.:49:05.

and we think it's better for us to be out of the European Union."

:49:06.:49:08.

So the question is what next, then? Should Parliament

:49:09.:49:12.

have a say on this? I don't think we need to put it

:49:13.:49:13.

through a parliamentary vote at all. I think...

:49:14.:49:17.

Well, it's ridiculous! How are we taking back

:49:18.:49:18.

sovereignty and control if our Parliament doesn't

:49:19.:49:20.

have a say? Because the British people have

:49:21.:49:22.

voted to leave the European Union, it is now up to us

:49:23.:49:24.

to implement that... Yes, but we should

:49:25.:49:29.

There will be parliamentary scrutiny, through various select

:49:30.:49:33.

committees, and we will look at the...

:49:34.:49:34.

I mean, I sit on the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee.

:49:35.:49:37.

We're about to launch an enquiry as to how Brexit will affect

:49:38.:49:40.

that aspect and I suspect the other select committees

:49:41.:49:42.

Well, we've had Andy Burnham come out and say there

:49:43.:49:46.

should be a Northern voice in the negotiations.

:49:47.:49:48.

Tim Farron's raised concerns about funding.

:49:49.:49:51.

There is no clarity, is there, really?

:49:52.:49:53.

There's been a mess in Parliament since June the 23rd,

:49:54.:49:57.

because nothing was worked on and the people who campaigned

:49:58.:49:59.

for Brexit didn't have a firm idea of the terms that they wanted,

:50:00.:50:02.

so we are still arguing, "Are we going to have access

:50:03.:50:05.

Are our finance companies going to be able to trade?

:50:06.:50:08.

Can EU nationals stay here? Can UK nationals stay in the EU?"

:50:09.:50:11.

But it's wrong, it's totally wrong on the basis on which people thought

:50:12.:50:19.

it was to take back control if then our Parliament,

:50:20.:50:21.

our sovereign Parliament, doesn't have a say.

:50:22.:50:23.

But it was a pretty clear resounding...

:50:24.:50:25.

It was clear that... People wanted to leave.

:50:26.:50:26.

But not the terms. It's the terms of leaving.

:50:27.:50:29.

So the leaving, everybody respects that, I respect that,

:50:30.:50:33.

we all respect that as parliamentarians,

:50:34.:50:34.

but it's the terms and the terms are very different.

:50:35.:50:37.

Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit - they mean a lot of different things.

:50:38.:50:40.

You know, inflation is affected, jobs are affected.

:50:41.:50:42.

So then, should there be a vote on the deal that we get?

:50:43.:50:45.

Yes, there should, I absolutely believe

:50:46.:50:47.

And that is what we are our going for.

:50:48.:50:50.

But would you potentially vote no on that if you're not happy with it?

:50:51.:50:53.

Even though people in...? No, it's the terms of the exit.

:50:54.:50:56.

Do you go for a Hard Brexit, where we are out

:50:57.:51:00.

Or do you say that we must have access to the single market?

:51:01.:51:04.

Andrew, should the government be publishing more about

:51:05.:51:06.

what it wants to achieve? I mean, we can't...

:51:07.:51:08.

As has already been said, we can't publish a running

:51:09.:51:11.

commentary of how it's going to... Because you don't know.

:51:12.:51:13.

That's not the case. I think it is.

:51:14.:51:15.

Like anything in life, the negotiation like this, I mean...

:51:16.:51:17.

I think the way we should do it, I mean, there were so many EU

:51:18.:51:23.

directives that affect the country and I think we need to look at them

:51:24.:51:26.

carefully and I'm not saying that every EU directive...

:51:27.:51:28.

Should the priority be rejucing immigration

:51:29.:51:33.

I think to say an individual priority now would be wrong.

:51:34.:51:36.

I think we need to look at all the different issues,

:51:37.:51:39.

the various, the many, many EU directives that we are subjected to.

:51:40.:51:42.

But this is the wooliness we are getting in Parliament.

:51:43.:51:44.

Barbara, I didn't interrupt you, if you let me get to the point.

:51:45.:51:47.

We can look at the EU directives that we are influenced by.

:51:48.:51:50.

I am not saying they are all bad, I am not saying they are all good,

:51:51.:51:54.

we have already given some clarity along the lines of agricultural

:51:55.:51:57.

sector, because they are concerned because of the money that comes

:51:58.:51:59.

So we can eliminate some of the concerns now

:52:00.:52:03.

but as the Prime Minister said, we need to look at this and think

:52:04.:52:06.

about it before we invoke Article 50 in 2017.

:52:07.:52:08.

Barbara, what needs to happen next to reassure people

:52:09.:52:10.

That the government does have a plan?

:52:11.:52:14.

People thought that we were taking back control, taking back

:52:15.:52:16.

sovereignty, so Parliament is meant to be sovereign,

:52:17.:52:20.

it should have a vote and to say that, "Let's look

:52:21.:52:23.

at the directives," the great repeal bill that you've suggested will not

:52:24.:52:25.

come into Parliament until after Article 50

:52:26.:52:27.

We need to know the terms on which we are leaving the EU

:52:28.:52:31.

We have just appointed Keir Starmer, and Hilary Benn is going to be

:52:32.:52:36.

I think they will fight for the position

:52:37.:52:39.

I've just outlined. OK, thank you.

:52:40.:52:40.

Well, George Osborne may have more time for Cheshire,

:52:41.:52:45.

has decided the county's not for him.

:52:46.:52:50.

Mr Woolfe recently moved his family from Chester to Hampshire

:52:51.:52:53.

and has now quit the party as well after his spat

:52:54.:52:56.

Mr Woolfe didn't want to speak to us, but Ukip's North West

:52:57.:53:03.

President, Phil Griffiths, joins us now from Liverpool.

:53:04.:53:05.

So, Mr Woolfe says your party is in a death spiral.

:53:06.:53:11.

We have grown from strength to strength.

:53:12.:53:16.

Yeah, in fact, every party has the turbulence that

:53:17.:53:21.

we've experienced over the last couple of weeks or so.

:53:22.:53:24.

The Labour Party is still going through it and there are

:53:25.:53:27.

So I don't see that as a big problem.

:53:28.:53:32.

We had a very unfortunate situation with Diane James standing down.

:53:33.:53:36.

And then there was the incident in Starsbourg...

:53:37.:53:38.

She didn't think the party was manageable, did she?

:53:39.:53:41.

I don't recall what she said at all about that.

:53:42.:53:45.

But we've got to put that behind us. That's in the past.

:53:46.:53:48.

We've got to get on with the future

:53:49.:53:50.

Well, your new leader quit after a number of days.

:53:51.:53:58.

The person deemed to be favourite described the party

:53:59.:54:00.

Is there any way back for Ukip from this?

:54:01.:54:04.

There is. Steven didn't get his own way.

:54:05.:54:07.

That is where I think he is feeling the bitterness from.

:54:08.:54:09.

You know, that is up to him. And that this it.

:54:10.:54:12.

We would have liked him to stay but he didn't.

:54:13.:54:14.

So there is a new leadership campaign starting.

:54:15.:54:16.

I am personally backing Paul Nuttall.

:54:17.:54:18.

OK, thank you, Phil. That's my pleasure!

:54:19.:54:22.

So, Barbara, Steven Woolfe has moved out of the region, 200 miles away.

:54:23.:54:25.

He now says he is no longer representing the party

:54:26.:54:27.

He is an MEP, proportional representation - should there be

:54:28.:54:32.

a mechanism for replacing him, because he is no longer

:54:33.:54:35.

Yeah, and I think that is unfortunate because there

:54:36.:54:38.

We've been talking about the work in Parliament.

:54:39.:54:42.

There is an awful lot of linking to what is happening

:54:43.:54:44.

We don't want to see people fighting there, but working there,

:54:45.:54:52.

and the North West is missing out if they don't have all our

:54:53.:54:56.

representatives, but I know that the Labour MEPs are doing

:54:57.:54:58.

And, Andrew, this altercation apparently happened

:54:59.:55:01.

after he was flirting with your party,

:55:02.:55:03.

Well, I was never particularly keen to have him in

:55:04.:55:07.

And he's certainly not been flirting with me,

:55:08.:55:10.

I've not met Mr Woolfe and I don't know his

:55:11.:55:14.

intentions, but I do agree - to see politicians

:55:15.:55:16.

of any party fighting doesn't bring our profession

:55:17.:55:18.

I wish they wouldn't do it. OK.

:55:19.:55:21.

West Lancashire and Wirral councils this week followed Liverpool's lead

:55:22.:55:24.

in urging local newsagents to stop selling the Sun newspaper.

:55:25.:55:28.

The country's biggest-selling daily has long been boycotted by many

:55:29.:55:31.

in the area over its coverage of the Hillsborough disaster.

:55:32.:55:33.

in the area over its coverage of the Hillsborough Disaster.

:55:34.:55:36.

But should local authorities be getting involved?

:55:37.:55:37.

A question for our reporter Mat Trewern.

:55:38.:55:44.

Do I wish to God that I had never done that front page?

:55:45.:55:48.

The newspaper's infamous headline and coverage continues to cause hurt

:55:49.:56:05.

And this week, two more councils voted to encourage shops

:56:06.:56:09.

I was at Hillsborough and I lost a very good friend.

:56:10.:56:15.

This paper has never accepted the fact that they printed a lie

:56:16.:56:20.

that had a massive impact impact throughout the 90s on the economy

:56:21.:56:22.

of Merseyside and the people of Merseyside.

:56:23.:56:24.

And that is the thing that you can never forgive.

:56:25.:56:32.

And all I am asking retailers to do is look at themselves

:56:33.:56:34.

and ask whether they should be selling the paper.

:56:35.:56:37.

But some believe stopping the paper being sold is a step too far.

:56:38.:56:40.

I have a great deal of sympathy towards the victims

:56:41.:56:43.

and their families, but it is wider than that I think.

:56:44.:56:47.

Where do you draw the line once you start?

:56:48.:56:51.

How many of the staff are still on the Sun?

:56:52.:56:57.

And I believe in individual has a right to decide

:56:58.:56:59.

The owners of the Sun tell us they hope, in time,

:57:00.:57:04.

their grave error can be forgiven, but also say it is a shame that some

:57:05.:57:07.

people are trying to decide what others can choose

:57:08.:57:10.

And the council's strong stance is an issue which divides opinion.

:57:11.:57:16.

I think the public have spoken - nobody wants the Sun.

:57:17.:57:19.

The treatment that the Sun gave the area at the time of Hillsborough

:57:20.:57:22.

I would make the choice of not having it, but if somebody wants it,

:57:23.:57:32.

Yes, and I think the less state intervention, the better.

:57:33.:57:37.

Campaigners against the Sun say they would like the paper

:57:38.:57:39.

to completely disappear off of the shelves

:57:40.:57:41.

Mat Trewern reporting. Andrew, are the council is going to far? The

:57:42.:57:56.

council is talking about the Sun on sale in Liverpool, one of the most

:57:57.:58:00.

powerful moments when I was in Parliament was the debate on

:58:01.:58:02.

Hillsborough, and I read is the point of order, about Kelvin

:58:03.:58:08.

MacKenzie, whether he can be got back in front of the Select

:58:09.:58:12.

Committee many years later over it. But should council should

:58:13.:58:16.

encourage... To answer that, councils have quite a lot on their

:58:17.:58:20.

plate and quite frankly I am not sure they should be doing this

:58:21.:58:24.

because if the Sun is not selling in Liverpool, give people the choice,

:58:25.:58:29.

if it doesn't sell, it doesn't, and I know it doesn't sell in Liverpool.

:58:30.:58:33.

But also West Lancashire and people are not trying to ban it, just want

:58:34.:58:38.

to encourage newsagents to think about what the Sun did. Absolutely.

:58:39.:58:44.

And if you take the world, the 96 victims of Hillsborough, 12 of them

:58:45.:58:48.

I understand were from the Wirral and Ellesmere Port. People in the

:58:49.:58:55.

middle of that grief, the misery of bereavement, in a terrible incident,

:58:56.:58:58.

a newspaper that published untruths. Now it has admitted! But people

:58:59.:59:04.

don't get over that, it made their grief worse and people still

:59:05.:59:09.

remember it. So I think that is the council rightly showing solidarity

:59:10.:59:13.

with people, families of those victims. I fully understand it and I

:59:14.:59:17.

think they are doing the right thing. OK!

:59:18.:59:20.

What else has been happening this week?

:59:21.:59:22.

Here's Steve Saul to tell us in 60 Seconds.

:59:23.:59:25.

Wigan MP Lisa Nandy led Labour's attack on Theresa May's handling

:59:26.:59:28.

of the child abuse inquiry during the Prime Minister's

:59:29.:59:30.

She set up the enquiry, she appointed the chairperson, she was

:59:31.:59:42.

the Home Secretary in April and was the only person who had the power to

:59:43.:59:43.

act. Oldham was designated

:59:44.:59:45.

an "opportunity area" after the Education Secretary

:59:46.:59:47.

paid a visit to promise But children not paying a visit

:59:48.:59:49.

to school have been racking up Councils in the North West fined

:59:50.:59:53.

parents ?1.3 million Cheshire councillor Matthew Bryan -

:59:54.:00:00.

on the left - went on trial accused of obstructing an officer

:00:01.:00:05.

as police tried to clear He and seven others

:00:06.:00:08.

deny all charges. And the former Lib Dem MP John Leech

:00:09.:00:11.

won praise for his part in a successful campaign to pardon

:00:12.:00:19.

posthumously thousands convicted of homosexuality, among them

:00:20.:00:21.

the codebreaker Alan Turing. John Leech taking

:00:22.:00:29.

the plaudits there. What's your biggest recent

:00:30.:00:30.

achievement? I think I presented 100 petitions on

:00:31.:00:42.

behalf of women born in the 1950s who have not got their state pension

:00:43.:00:46.

when they expected. A lot of them said they were moved in seeing so

:00:47.:00:51.

much support, so that was a good moment last week. I campaign long

:00:52.:00:57.

and hard for a bypass to relieve traffic in Glossop. We had an

:00:58.:01:01.

awareness event last week and it was the first opportunity for people to

:01:02.:01:05.

see the plans to have this delivered in the not too distant future. Good

:01:06.:01:09.

to see many constituents look at the initial drawing. Well done to both

:01:10.:01:10.

of you. Thanks to Barbara Keeley

:01:11.:01:11.

and Andrew Bingham - go ahead with this policy, I know.

:01:12.:01:14.

And now back to Andrew. So, Brexit, airports,

:01:15.:01:26.

Calais and the chances With what Rory Stewart was saying

:01:27.:01:48.

there, it is clear that Islamic State is losing territory in Iraq

:01:49.:01:52.

now, and could come under pressure in Syria as well. It used to control

:01:53.:01:59.

a whole swathe of the coast of Libya, and is now down to a small

:02:00.:02:08.

area of Sirte in Libya. But curiously, it could make them more

:02:09.:02:10.

dangerous here if they are being driven out of the Maghreb and the

:02:11.:02:15.

Levant, they could be more dangerous here. Discuss. That was a very

:02:16.:02:20.

interesting admission from a government minister, of all people,

:02:21.:02:25.

and a well-informed one. Chasing Isis around the Middle East is

:02:26.:02:33.

about... Like chasing Al-Qaeda around Afghanistan and Pakistan. You

:02:34.:02:36.

smash them somewhere, and they pop up somewhere else. He is right to

:02:37.:02:45.

warn that these guys will go somewhere. And it may well be, in

:02:46.:02:57.

Sirte, for example, across the magic oration -- across the Mediterranean

:02:58.:03:02.

into Italy. A lot of the foreign fighters in Mosul have already gone,

:03:03.:03:05.

we heard, which raises the question, to where? I think it is quite right

:03:06.:03:14.

for government ministers to warn that it might have repercussions

:03:15.:03:18.

here. We have been involved in this, with full public consent, as far as

:03:19.:03:23.

we can tell. If it doesn't happen, if there are horrors and outrages

:03:24.:03:27.

here and in the rest of Europe, that's fine. If it does happen, at

:03:28.:03:34.

least the government is prepared. We knew surprised about how categorical

:03:35.:03:42.

Nia Griffith was? She was categorical about support for the

:03:43.:03:48.

Allied action in Iraq, and categorical about Russia. So much so

:03:49.:03:55.

that perhaps written should take tougher sanctions on its own, even

:03:56.:04:00.

if it can't get the Europeans to fall in line. I found that

:04:01.:04:05.

interesting. I was surprised by that. Tom may be right that Rory

:04:06.:04:10.

said more than perhaps he was intending, but I thought that some

:04:11.:04:15.

of what she said sounded politically imprudent in the current context of

:04:16.:04:19.

the Labour Party. I'm not sure she cleared those lines with the Labour

:04:20.:04:24.

office. I'm not sure she and Jeremy are in the same place about it. I'm

:04:25.:04:29.

not sure there is that much leadership. People at the moment get

:04:30.:04:32.

out there and say what they think it's right for the party. She

:04:33.:04:37.

sounded dead right to me. Whether it is ill-advised or not, people should

:04:38.:04:43.

answer... I want to move on, because Brexit never goes away. This week we

:04:44.:04:49.

saw Hilary Benn, former Shadow Foreign Secretary. He is going to be

:04:50.:04:53.

the chair of the select committee in the Commons which will monitor the

:04:54.:04:57.

Department for Brexit. All sorts of people will be coming to give

:04:58.:05:01.

testimony and so one. Let's hear what he told Andrew Marr.

:05:02.:05:04.

I think it will be very important for the government to indicate that

:05:05.:05:07.

if it is not possible within the two years provided for by Article 50

:05:08.:05:10.

to negotiate both our withdrawal agreement and a new trading

:05:11.:05:13.

relationship, market access, including for services,

:05:14.:05:14.

80% of our economy, million jobs, in financial services,

:05:15.:05:16.

that it should tell the House of Commons that it will seek

:05:17.:05:19.

a transitional arrangement with the European Union.

:05:20.:05:25.

If the deal is not done at the end of the two-year Article 50 process,

:05:26.:05:34.

would the government go for an interim agreement, or would it fall

:05:35.:05:40.

back on WTO, World Trade Organisation, Rawls? My

:05:41.:05:44.

understanding is the article 15 negotiation doesn't specifically

:05:45.:05:47.

include what Britain's future trading relationship with the EU

:05:48.:05:52.

would be. It is perfectly possible that Article 50 could be triggered,

:05:53.:05:57.

and after two years we don't have a trade deal, but the trade deal

:05:58.:06:02.

negotiations are ongoing when we are outside the EU. But the trade deal

:06:03.:06:13.

negotiations are the most important thing. If Article 50 doesn't cover

:06:14.:06:16.

it, what is it about? Absolutely essential. The trade deal with

:06:17.:06:18.

Canada has taken nine years, and now it looks like it is fading, because

:06:19.:06:26.

of the Walloons. Just one small part of the country. If you cannot do a

:06:27.:06:35.

free-trade deal with Canada, a progressive, social Democratic

:06:36.:06:38.

Canada, who can the EU do a trade deal with? You would think it would

:06:39.:06:43.

be easy with us, because we have all of the level playing field

:06:44.:06:47.

agreements in place. You would hope it would be easier, but it may not

:06:48.:06:52.

be, because in the end, it will hinge on the single market and if we

:06:53.:06:57.

are in or out. If we are in, can we have a small break on immigration?

:06:58.:07:06.

It looks like not. What is interesting about the opinion polls

:07:07.:07:08.

is, in the last two opinion polls there was a significant change in

:07:09.:07:13.

public opinion, where people are now saying they think that actually

:07:14.:07:17.

trade, the economy, the single market is more important than

:07:18.:07:22.

immigration. If it is really true, as the observer is reporting today,

:07:23.:07:27.

that banks are on the move, and in a year's time there could be a

:07:28.:07:31.

significant collapse in the income we get from finance, the income that

:07:32.:07:35.

the Treasury gets, then public opinion might change. They may say,

:07:36.:07:46.

we don't want more immigration, but this isn't a price worth paying.

:07:47.:07:49.

Everything tends to be seen through the Brexit lens at the moment.

:07:50.:07:57.

Things are not always as they seem. The Canadian- EU free trade

:07:58.:08:00.

agreement was about increasing free trade between the EU and Canada, and

:08:01.:08:05.

therefore subject to the ratification of all members. Any

:08:06.:08:09.

deal we do will not give us the same access we have at the moment. The

:08:10.:08:15.

question is, how much will it be diminished? It may not be subject to

:08:16.:08:21.

the same ratification process. Absolutely right. Another

:08:22.:08:24.

unbelievably technical point that we still don't know is, if we can get

:08:25.:08:30.

this free-trade deal with the EU at the same time as our Brexit talks

:08:31.:08:35.

and deal, the divorce deal as well as the remarriage deal, then one

:08:36.:08:43.

gets signed off by QM V. The trade deal may still need all 28, all 27,

:08:44.:08:52.

including the people from the Walloons. And the MEPs. The majority

:08:53.:08:58.

of parliament. This is exactly why Theresa May would like the

:08:59.:09:02.

transitional deal to push this one deeper. I was surprised to hear

:09:03.:09:06.

Hilary Benn pushing this line this morning. The remainers have been all

:09:07.:09:11.

over the place. They wanted a vote after Article 50 had been triggered

:09:12.:09:15.

about the deal. Then they wanted a vote before Article 50. Now they are

:09:16.:09:24.

talking about a vote before article Article 50 is triggered about a

:09:25.:09:28.

trade deal. They need to make up their minds about what it is they

:09:29.:09:32.

are pushing for, and what their best hope of obstructing Brexit is, and

:09:33.:09:38.

stick with it. Something else we see through the Brexit lens, which isn't

:09:39.:09:43.

always helpful, is Calais. The French bulldozers will move in

:09:44.:09:47.

tomorrow. We will see some pretty disturbing scenes on the TV. We will

:09:48.:09:52.

see some horrible scenes. The government has handled this very

:09:53.:09:56.

badly. Having passed an amendment in April saying we would take something

:09:57.:10:02.

like 3000 children, a lot of those children have disappeared. Save the

:10:03.:10:05.

Children, one of the charities there, are very worried that people

:10:06.:10:09.

traffickers have been in there, and a lot of those children have

:10:10.:10:17.

vanished. We haven't sent social workers in. No preparations have

:10:18.:10:22.

been made what ever. You are raising an interesting point. We don't know

:10:23.:10:28.

how many we are meant to be taking. The huge argument has arisen over

:10:29.:10:32.

what the age is of some of the ones coming in. Is this another problem

:10:33.:10:39.

for the Home Office? To some extent. Didn't Theresa May 's too well to

:10:40.:10:44.

survive six weeks of this? Amber Rudd has been there for three

:10:45.:10:49.

months. It is clear that the Home Office didn't prepare for this. They

:10:50.:10:52.

didn't prepare for the age verification or when it will go. It

:10:53.:11:00.

needs to be an perfect. We don't know how many we will take, because

:11:01.:11:06.

the Home Office will not say. I want to talk about airport capacity, but

:11:07.:11:10.

I won't, because I don't think we have anything to say about it until

:11:11.:11:16.

the statement on Tuesday from Transport Minister Grayling. When

:11:17.:11:20.

you look at the polls and see the decision on airport runway expansion

:11:21.:11:24.

being kicked into the long grass for a year, are we heading for an early

:11:25.:11:28.

election next year or not? I think Theresa May will do everything she

:11:29.:11:33.

can to avoid it. If there is an election before 2020, it is bound to

:11:34.:11:41.

be about Europe, and that is a much harder case for her to win than just

:11:42.:11:44.

a question of who is the best Prime Minister. She will have a tough

:11:45.:11:48.

time, because it will be a general election about in or out of the

:11:49.:11:53.

single market. Half of her party will peel away. How do she conduct a

:11:54.:11:59.

general election when the likes of Anna Soubry will not stand on the

:12:00.:12:04.

same platform? It will be difficult. But she may reach such a stalemate

:12:05.:12:13.

that she just calls one. No general election next year because it will

:12:14.:12:16.

split the Tory party. There will be won in 2019 when she cannot get

:12:17.:12:20.

Brexit through the House of Commons. You really can have too much of a

:12:21.:12:24.

good thing. I just want to show a little clip of the former Shadow

:12:25.:12:29.

Chancellor, Ed Balls, from Strictly last night. Let's just watch this.

:12:30.:12:33.

There he is. Where is the hand? That is the

:12:34.:12:45.

worrying bit! We will no longer be saying that Ed Balls is a safe pair

:12:46.:12:53.

of hands! Can we agree on that? Remarkable that he was once the man

:12:54.:12:58.

most feared by David Cameron! Labour leader 2021. He has hit popular

:12:59.:13:06.

culture in the way that many few politicians do. Charm, gusto,

:13:07.:13:12.

bravery, no worries about being embarrassed. All the things that you

:13:13.:13:19.

don't like about being a politician. We have run out of time. You can get

:13:20.:13:21.

it on social media. Jo Coburn will be back

:13:22.:13:24.

with the Daily Politics tomorrow And I'll be back here next

:13:25.:13:26.

Sunday at the same time. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:27.:13:30.

it's the Sunday Politics. Everyone's living these

:13:31.:14:04.

amazing lives, You're like a...

:14:05.:14:06.

Different person? Delve deeper.

:14:07.:14:17.

Ordinary Lives continues... They have something on me

:14:18.:14:26.

that I can actually remember. They have something on me

:14:27.:14:27.

that I can actually remember. The final chapter between

:14:28.:14:32.

Gibson and Spector.

:14:33.:14:36.

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