11/12/2016 Sunday Politics North West

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

A row has broken out between Number Ten and former

Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,

the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.

I feel as though I'm one of the people that

If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,

It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult

for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest

Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.

Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance

Corbynite Ken Livingstone and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie

Plus: These two are in step, but is the North West too segregated

think of it as an early Christmas present from us.

We guarantee you won't be disappointed.

And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined

by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.

It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.

So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some

of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.

But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this

morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts

from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning

the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.

Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,

and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation

She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning

Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair

She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart

Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week

But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary

argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief

She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing

for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation

and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".

The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying

"If you don't like something I have said or done, please

If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."

Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.

And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see

in our film shortly, has now been formally banned

So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying

tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says

something about British politics today, that this is the most

important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are

not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they

don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being

spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street

with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet

Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row

over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,

she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten

you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the

high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.

You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky

Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul

as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.

Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they

are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in

which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's

entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is

genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she

chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that

journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life

works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the

Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney

and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government

department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold

together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the

whole Government like one department. This is just the start,

Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,

The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most

to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if

it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was

split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used

to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down

the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert

the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a

self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it

comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do

you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own

wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is

that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen

polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,

a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any

money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself

comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted

with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most

exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that

British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain

lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at

being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split

between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that

sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the

1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.

The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of

pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.

So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price

of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.

And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire

the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say

about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead

of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,

it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.

While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated

Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting

on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.

Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government

basically got its way, but it did provide a platform

for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,

We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level

of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners

that want to thwart the will of the people,

go back on it and that we don't accept the result.

I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people

It's not good enough that these things are dragged

out of the Government by opposition day motions.

I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking

Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents

I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head

above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,

you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.

I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank

you for what you are doing, party members around

the country saying thank you for what you are doing

and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.

I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,

you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak

opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised

on before we embark on such a huge issue.

Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's

side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that

if you don't stand up for what you believe in,

I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.

That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local

party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses

Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association

she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support

the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that

and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people

who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government

The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP

and we want to see a Conservative government being

I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get

on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,

Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see

how her stance is going down with the voters.

If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does

Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,

especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU

so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.

She should stick for what she believes in,

but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...

She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted

to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,

depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.

Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street

this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.

Although now we know not everyone is invited.

And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday

was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted

against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end

of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.

Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David

Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new

leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to

deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't

speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious

interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but

somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman

which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and

said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger

ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only

serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a

difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,

your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more

in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it

not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not

Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,

she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting

out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for

being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it

wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the

national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid

throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and

my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party

throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion

on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to

Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my

reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national

interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of

course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you

think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it

40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you

have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,

they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have

been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.

That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are

living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and

the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's

trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we

need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a

leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis

upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the

others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than

any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.

What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our

children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need

Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of

negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to

run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted

in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister

sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that

your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons

think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum

campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were

completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.

Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I

have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so

just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a

minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan

Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with

that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were

going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and

tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How

long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will

survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a

heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you

think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has

always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in

a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does

he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to

forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there

will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten

years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of

his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward

is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which

all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet

papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get

down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry

to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film

that a number of constituency members in those areas which are

strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was

Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.

What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects

their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very

grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because

you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great

fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on

everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've

always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying

what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and

then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised

if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the

policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say

you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing

Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't

been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my

colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that

haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have

been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well

with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's

much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street

has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm

glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what

they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm

not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still

have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.

That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really

grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will

have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument

about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to

keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be

deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's

relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this

Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you

for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever

criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn

against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,

but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,

or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result

for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping

for an early Christmas present at this week's

contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,

a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,

there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second

in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better

performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,

where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting

fewer voters than the reported number of local

Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this

week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major

issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity

is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers

were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote

against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU

by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've

spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs

the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,

or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,

eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,

a national poll released on Friday put Labour

at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy

for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories

under his leadership, including a by-election win

in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a

Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack

of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having

failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,

what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played

down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour

Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic

party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current

leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in

the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.

And we're joined now by the former mayor

of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow

Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from

second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its

deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in

this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters

switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings

that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is

like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the

Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win

tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with

the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,

but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the

national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells

going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I

think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a

plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are

going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard

Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.

When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.

John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a

massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory

governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a

disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if

Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the

EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year

and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we

are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic

disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew

the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why

are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points

behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating

went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an

election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not

grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it

will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic

alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible

economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand

basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a

commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It

is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,

particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back

and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative

manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to

the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the

broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an

MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not

going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a

couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from

Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And

I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part

of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted

to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you

don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other

27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,

why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't

think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to

get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps

millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say

we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all

Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would

suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories

are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a

bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut

through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us

that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a

33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of

the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to

make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and

not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or

whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox

fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18

months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.

The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You

weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you

have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting

rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of

policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to

govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The

idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like

takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,

yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this

summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of

the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I

want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have

got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio

at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more

money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums

add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.

They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour

Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..

Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid

off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace

compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is

decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a

society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just

the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to

contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public

are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in

the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out

clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these

things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money

through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150

billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier

estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR

programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can

say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we

will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just

checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do

you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn

round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get

worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we

would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will

knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill

Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going

to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise

they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the

Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans

that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in

12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will

hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for

the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do

they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to

bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your

party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we

have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the

opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good

enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the

Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and

on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending

national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian

intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now

in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be

able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are

heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the

war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the

last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the

way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we

used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is

in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually

getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.

Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking

about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying

off message, again, and the protestors attempting

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

Coming up in the North West: These two are in step,

but is the region too segregated to dance to the same tune?

First, affordability. People cannot afford to move to these areas.

Second, choice. People choose to live in their own areas so we cannot

force that agenda. Joining me in the studio,

but not dancing together - yet - Yasmin Qureshi is the Labour MP

for Bolton South East And Nigel Evans is the Conservative

MP for Ribble Valley. We're going to start at this week's

Commons debate on Brexit - where Andy Burnham had some cutting

words to say about Labour's It is not working for the more

deprived parts of our country. Especially those where traditional

industry has been replaced by lower skill, wage employment. It is time

for many on this sides of the house to hear the hard

truth. It's undermining our communities and safety on the

streets. I'm no longer prepared to be complicit, we need answers for

our public concerns, based on hope, not hate.

Yasmin, Andy Burnham with strong words there. The failure of the

Labour Party to confront immigration is endangering safety on the

streets, he gave it context later and said in action from the left is

leading to hate from the right which is dangerous. Is that right? I've

knocked on doors in my constituency and the issue of immigration is a

problem for my constituents. It doesn't mean that you are being

racist or it is about racism, it's a genuine concern and people,

especially poor people, whose economic lives have not gone up. We

know all of this but what we don't know is what the Labour Party are

doing about it? They have said the way to deal with the issue is to,

for example, introduce minimum wage. Now we argue we should be

introducing a living wage. So people are paid a proper amount of money.

But, can you see why people think Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott have

their heads in the sand when it comes to immigration? They say they

will not budge or be bullied on it. It's those debates that get heated.

I do not think anyone is against, for example, a set of rules on

immigration. People coming based on what jobs are available and I do not

think anyone would object. But what happens is, different parts of the

country have different experiences at immigration. There are a lot of

jobs, and in future as well, with an ageing population, they will be

needing quite a lot of immigration coming into the country.

That's true, I think people want more clarity from the leader of the

Labour Party. Niger, that debate ended with the House of Commons

agreeing on Theresa May's timeline on withdrawal from the EU, but will

she regret publishing her exit plan? -- Nigel. Thank goodness that

Parliament have addressed these issues. She will not show her

forehand, of course not. Sometimes I play poker and I would love to play

against the Labour Party, they're negotiating strategy is to show your

hand to your opponent! It will be tough and we would be bonkers if we

told them exactly what our Brotton prize was! She has had to

compromise, we cannot deny that -- our bottom price.

"Worrying levels" of segregation still exist in towns like Oldham,

Blackburn and Burnley, according to a government

The Casey Review said schools remain divided,

and Muslim women are being held back by what it called "regressive

But others criticised the report for focusing

Song and dance at Oldham's Festival of light. An Interfaith celebration,

in a week where headlines have been about segregation. We have

challenges, but I'm always heartened by nights like tonight. Because, we

see people mixing and I've had to turn down people today because we do

not have any room. Despite events like this, Oldham is one of the

areas highlighted in Louise Casey's reporters having problems,

especially with integration among the Muslim community. This week,

schools in old are out of kilter with the area they are based in.

Here, 90% of the population is white that a majority of pupils here are

from minority backgrounds. They've tried to help integration by

merging two schools into this Academy six years ago, one mainly

white and the other mainly Asian. If you look at that school now, our

young people are more respectful, tolerant and resilience towards one

another. Tricky elements are that people are not moving out of their

traditional areas. There's the issue of affordability, people cannot

afford to move, and the second is about choice. People choose to live

in their own area so we cannot force that agenda. But could Muslim

communities do more to improve the situation for women? The The Casey

Review accuses them of aggressive attitudes. I had a case of a woman

at home, with limited English, she could not dial 999 because she could

not say where she lived and struggled with the questions. We

should not be limiting a woman's opportunity to have conversations

with anyone. She spoke of the fear people have about bringing up

segregation issues but other -- others caution about going too

far in the other direction. Many people in the Muslim community have

tried for years to build relationships. When people like

Louise Casey, for the government, focused too much on the Muslim

community, it creates an even greater sense of feeling the rest of

the world is against us. We must be so careful about it.

Events like this are a positive sign that not everybody is convinced the

integration effort across the region is worth applauding just yet...

Yasmin, Louise Casey does not beat around the bush, she is explicit.

Members of SummerSlam communities are not doing enough to integrate,

is that fair? I disagree with her. I'm not impressed by her report --

members of some Muslim communities. I do not accept this. But do you

accept that SummerSlam women cannot leave their home without permission

from their husband? If it happens to be true, fine. But that is not the

case. Do you deny that it happens? It has not happened in any of my

family. Are you saying that the report is inaccurate? My mother

raised three children... We aren't talking about your mother Bert the

fact it cannot -- but the fact it exists. I came from a traditional

Muslim background, I don't remember my father stopping her from doing

what she wanted to do. But that is your family, not every Muslim

family. The report accepts that integration is getting better but

there are pockets where it is terrible. But within all

communities, especially religious communities, it is not just Muslim

but other religions, there's a degree of some element of

conservatism and if it's the case somebody is stopping their wife or

someone from leaving home because they are stopping them, that is

clearly wrong but if it is happening, of course it must be

addressed. I think this report seems to have talked about that, and these

issues when actually, the greater issue, as the gentleman in your

report alluded to, a lot of people cannot afford to go out and into

more expensive areas. Nigel, she has a point about socio economic

elements. It is poverty causing segregation as much as religion. Is

the Conservative government doing enough to address it? I think Yasmin

has a point and we have to do more to integrate. I think it is pockets.

The vast majority of the UK, I do not think there is a real issue that

there are pockets. I remember going into Bradford where you can look on

the streets... But it talks about poverty and social inequality leads

to social Segregation. The only way we will

get around that problem is by having a growing economic and creating more

jobs, better paid jobs. The government is addressing that. When

Theresa May was first elected as Prime Minister, she talked about

immediately the people left behind. We will have a government that will

work for them. For a lot of people left behind, there are people in

these communities that Yasmin and the report addresses. But it's not

happening at the rate we would like, is it? Not at all. We have to do

more about it, and lowering taxes is a way of doing that, by the way! Not

everybody agrees! We saw the water head Academy in that report were two

schools that were quite segregated were pushed together.

By combining the schools, it breeds respect and tolerance.

It depends where problems are, in a vast majority of the country there

are not issues but where there are pockets, I accept that there may be

some were slim ladies told by their husbands that they cannot go out

unless they have permission. I think it is awful... But is defending

faith schools the right way? But there is not an issue within the

vast majority of schools. Faith -based or not. There is not an

issue, there is not a problem. People would dispute that, if you

are only surrounded by people with the same heritage as you in terms of

religion, it won't encourage integration once you leave school? I

think the way that the school that was pictured, pushing two schools

together and mixing them, where there is a real issue in that

particular town then yes, you should address it. Yasmin, our faith

schools the way forward? I do not think there are issues with faith

schools. I think the issues are economic. We talk about communities

together, for example. When there are an

immigration issues, people coming into the same area where people knew

each other, they live there and there were cheaper homes. A lot of

those people and financially well off.

-- are not. If you are from a nice detached house in the leafy part of

town, I will take it but I cannot afford it. If there is any of that

going... We will all take it! This programme has learned that most

benefit claimants who've been moved onto Universal Credit are failing

to pay their rent and running up Private landlords say the situation

is 'unsustainable' and they're now refusing to house

people receiving it. The government insists

Universal Credit is working Lots of people who have got no money

will be in arrears and could get evicted. Their rock people out there

who cannot manage their money. -- there are people. People on benefits

will be the last choice for landlords.

The problems were widely predicted, and now, three years

after it was introduced, landlords say they're millions

of pounds out of pocket due to Universal Credit.

In Speke, South Liverpool Homes runs this shop where people can

For the ?2.50, it is ?15 worth of shopping.

And the staff here tell stories of those on the benefits unable

to manage their money and cover their bills.

It is heartbreaking to see some of the people who come here. If you are

given ?100 for your rent and your child needs some shoes or a coat, or

something to eat... What will you do?

Universal Credit brings together six benefits in one monthly payment.

That's instead of weekly. But there can be weeks without money when

claimants are moved onto it. After years of having their rent

paid, and receiving any other money every week, it appears many

claimants aren't managing, and it's led to a 64 percent

increase in rent arrears. We have had to change our business

plan assumptions to make sure that we can accommodate what we can

predict. It could be a sizeable increase in rent arrears. And it's

not just here people are struggling. The eight housing associations

in the North West who gave us information said between them,

2200 of their tenants are now All but one say among those tenants,

rent arrears have increased. Arrears at New Charter Housing

in Tameside are up 30% while at Helana Homes,

94% of people on Universal In the private sector

the Residential Landlords Association says the situation

is 'unsustainable' and with 63% of those tenants who're receiving

the new benefit in arrears. Their members are now refusing

to take on new tenants If you do not get that rent payment

on a regular basis committee could lose the property and the tenant

would lose out because of that. "Reasons for rent arrears

are complex so it's misleading It says "Universal Credit

is designed to mirror the world of work and give people control

over their own finances, With the roll out of

Universal Credit set to continue, housing providers say they're expect

the increase in rent This week, the annual State

of the North conference It looks at how the region's

economy, and levels of social The Chief executive

of the Joseph Rowntree foundation was there -

they work to combat poverty. I started by asking her

whether Universal credit is making life harder for our most

vulnerable. In principle, I think it is very

good but there are many things about the design which are undoubtably

making it more difficult for people. The sanctions regime and how

payments are made, they are all matters of practice which could be

changed but currently, they are making life very difficult for

vulnerable people. And Steve think that the government gets it, but

they'd be -- could they be doing they'd be -- could they be doing

more to lift people out Earth poverty? It's down to local

authorities and businesses to reverse this terrible trend of one

in five people living in poverty. The government knows what it needs

to do, research evidence is there and they have to work with local

authorities to get it right. You will be leaving your role as the

leader of the Joseph Rowntree foundation after a decade, in 2016,

did you think that more than one in five people would be in poverty and

more than half of them would be in work?

We've been reporting the increasing number of people in work who are

poor. Numbers have gone up in the last ten

years and I would never have predicted that, that our labour

market would become so insecure it would lead people in poverty. I

would never have imagined one and a quarter million people in this year

would be living destitute lives. The labour market has changed

radically, but how much can the government do about it? Universal

credit was designed to help people navigate our complex labour market.

It's not kept up to speed with it, all with help the housing market

operates. The government has to intervene to make sure we have

enough housing so that people can be secure in their homes and that jobs

do provide a decent route out of poverty.

Some praise but she stops short of saying that it just isn't working,

when it comes to the detail, the most vulnerable in society are

really suffering? It's a mixed bag, I think things are improving but it

is not enough for a lot of people. If you are talking about over 1

million people living in poverty, we must do some thing about it. That is

why I said about Theresa May talking about those who are struggling and

clearly there are too many people who are struggling. We must make

sure the benefits available are paid through, and the sanctions regime

was mentioned. Sometimes I think the sanctions regime is used unfairly

against people with mental health needs or something like that.

Suddenly they end up with no money. Is it time to admit that universal

credit is not working and sometimes it is best for the money to go to

the landlord so it bypasses issues where we see people affected. It's

early days, we have to look at the process where we see there are

deficiencies. We must listen to someone from the Joseph Rowntree

Association, she's been there ten years and knowing -- and knows

exactly some of the issues there. We've always said the government,

nobody should be better off out of work than in work. It's a major

principle of universal credit and we must make certain that those who

desperately need support get it. That is why they accepted that in

some areas, the sliding scale of benefits works, compared to how much

you are in work, it means you are incentivised to go back to work but

people believe under Jeremy Corbyn it would not be the case.

He wants to scrap caps on benefits and those who pay a lot of tax,

believe they went to be rewarded in the same way? I doubt think it is

such a bad system. Where it falls down, -- I do not think. Wait. Is

the way the operators apply it. I have a number of constituents who

have made decisions about benefits -- where it falls down is the way

the operators apply it. When people are not getting their benefits

right, they want to pay for their food and drink, and the rent will be

the last thing they are thinking about. Or, when people are

sanctioned unfairly. I had a case, and I've had a lot of them, where I

cannot understand why people are being sanctioned. A young man told

me he had to take a job, and he was happy to, but it meant that he had

to get to work for 3am and he does not have a car and there is no

public transport... What is the solution? People would argue that

under Labour and Jeremy Corbyn, there are hand-outs going left right

and centre. I don't think that is right. When Labour were in power,

and when they've been out of power, there's aways been a need for a

reasonable level of benefits so people can survive. It is right that

these people work. But with what is happening with this or in the past,

the way that the systems have been administrated with sanctions, it

takes months and months for the arrears... It needs to be addressed,

doesn't it? Those delays in payments have catastrophic consequences. Yes,

in terms of human consequences but looking at rent arrears, it could

well be that the system where money is not being paid direct me to the

landlord has to be looked at again. If, at the end of the day, people

are using rent money for other things, it is clearly wrong -- not

being paid directly. The landlords are missing out and

eventually the people because they wed get accommodation. Do you accept

that, in a way, it has worked? People who have not known how to

manage money have learned a lot which is a good thing? For me, I

don't know if people have learned that much about management but what

we seem to be learning is people who are not bad about management... If

manage? The number of people I get manage? The number of people I get

on different types of benefits, if something has gone wrong, and they

aren't getting the money, people getting money in time are able to

pay in time. A single mum with a couple of kids and suddenly they are

on benefits, then it stops because of an unfair sanctioned... What

happens? It is clearly cruel. It seems that you are both in agreement

that there must be a slicker system to make sure they get benefits. We

are singing from the same Now, are spending cuts soon to be

a thing of the past? With that and the rest of the week's

news, here's Judy Hobson. Could an end to austerity

be on the cards? The Labour leader of Blackpool says

the outlook for councils appears The scale of the challenge has been

sheer chat I think we are getting there. -- has been huge.

- were in Manchester to launch a charity to help victims

The Offside Trust wants funding from The FA and Premier League.

Plans for faster trains from Liverpool to Manchester

and across to Yorkshire could be in the offing.

But is the Transport Secretary sold on the idea?

We need much faster journey times across the North. Are we going to

see those promises come to fruition? I am waiting to see how transport

from the North think we should live...

A jury heard how Liverpool Wavertree MP Luciana Berger was subjected

Joshua Bonehill-Paine was convicted of racially aggravated harassment.

And the future's flatpack - Liverpool has 15,000 people

on a waiting list for homes and reckons these could be

Thank you to Yasmin Qureshi and Nigel Evans.

I'll be back next week for a final appearance before Christmas.

For now, I'll hand you back to Andrew Neil in London.

still the biggest factor. We are running out of time.

Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked

by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian

revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged

in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking

the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally

in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned

The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it

And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks

were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right

of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi

terrorists from over the border with Yemen,

didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore

Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...

This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.

The way it was interpreted left people with the impression

that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.

Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital

Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?

Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring

Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.

It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest

in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are

the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be

honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall

story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that

Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a

story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there

was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between

London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring

and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are

taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris

Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I

tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting

Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis

got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the

Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just

what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they

see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this

conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two

ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing

Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region

earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine

what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three

words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick

to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,

although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech

which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night

which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in

withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3

billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases

exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the

world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen

and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't

entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we

have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in

Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes

and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both

saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is

going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't

going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners

and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of

bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals

and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases

with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.

Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street

reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important

development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They

want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should

be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another

example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that

the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed

post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I

think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I

think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel

threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and

many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival

for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May

trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain

is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,

post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are

breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,

democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying

ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should

we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,

these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.

Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply

collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession

depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think

what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,

we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the

most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep

saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.

Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.

The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is

a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,

or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.

Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for

breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you

make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It

is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take

this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost

tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a

huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft

carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep

the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just

Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is

more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no

change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now

we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.

Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be

trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be

turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I

don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC

has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the

weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us

move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was

inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.

Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?

Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then

Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a

distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be

able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do

something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather

than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in

general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning

what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was

interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had

they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other

than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics

which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the

British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the

Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the

things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is

happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry

watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last

week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the

west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.

And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily

Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If

and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are

talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than

anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We

will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I

understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from

analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it

is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator

of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in

reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far

you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty

much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and

the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the

press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is

behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.

He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much

of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is

time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the

cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,

you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree

at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want

to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a

reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily

Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.

and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.