Browse content similar to 18/12/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
Hard line remainers strike back at Brexit. | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
Are they trying to overturn the result of June's referendum | :00:43. | :00:44. | |
by forcing a second vote before we leave? | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
Australia's man in London tells us that life outside the EU "can be | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
pretty good" and that Brexit will "not be as hard as people say". | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
Could leaving the EU free Britain to do more business | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
It's been called "disgusting, dangerous and deadly" | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
but how polluted is our air, how bad for our health, | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
And in the North West: Can more council tax cover social care? | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
Plus, do the maths - why the headmaster here | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
is not feeling festive about his new budget. | :01:15. | :01:26. | |
And with me in the Sunday Politics grotto, the Dasher, Dancer | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
and Prancer of political punditry Iain Martin, | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
They'll be delivering tweets throughout the programme. | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
First this morning, some say they will fight | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
for what they call a "soft Brexit", but now there's an attempt by those | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
who campaigned for Britain to remain in the EU to allow the British | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
people to change their minds - possibly with a second referendum - | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
The Labour MEP Richard Corbett is revealed this morning to have | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
tried to amend European Parliament resolutions. | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
The original resolution called on the European Parliament | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
to "respect the will of the majority of the citizens | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
of the United Kingdom to leave the EU". | :02:09. | :02:23. | |
He also proposed removing the wording "stress that this wish | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
must be respected" and adding "while taking account of the 48.1% | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
The amendments were proposed in October, | :02:33. | :02:44. | |
but were rejected by a vote in the Brussels | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
Constitutional Affairs Committee earlier this month. | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
The report will be voted on by all MEPs in February. | :02:50. | :02:51. | |
Well, joining me now from Leeds is the Labour MEP who proposed | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
Good morning. Thanks for joining us at short notice. Is your aim to try | :02:55. | :03:03. | |
and reverse what happened on June 23? My aim with those amendments was | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
simply factual. It is rather odd that these amendments of two months | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
ago are suddenly used paper headlines in three very different | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
newspapers on the same day. It smacks of a sort of concerted effort | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
to try and slapped down any notion that Britain might perhaps want to | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
rethink its position on Brexit as the cost of Brexit emerges. You | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
would like us to rethink the position even before the cost urges? | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
I get lots of letters from people saying how one, this was an advisory | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
referendum won by a narrow majority on the basis of a pack of lies and a | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
questionable mandate. But if there is a mandate from this referendum, | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
it is surely to secure a Brexit that works for Britain without sinking | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
the economy. And if it transpires as we move forward, that this will be a | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
very costly exercise, then there will be people who voted leave who | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
said Hang on, this is not what I was told. I was told this would save | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
money, we could put it in the NHS, but if it is going to cost us and | :04:12. | :04:13. | |
our Monday leg, I would the right to reconsider. But | :04:14. | :04:31. | |
your aim is not get a Brexit that would work for Britain, your aim is | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
to stop it? If we got a Brexit that would work for Britain, that would | :04:35. | :04:36. | |
respect the mandate. But if we cannot get that, if it is going to | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
be a disaster, if it is going to cost people jobs and cost Britain | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
money, it is something we might want to pause and rethink. The government | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
said it is going to come forward with a plan. That is good. We need | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
to know what options to go for as a country. Do we want to stay in the | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
single market, the customs union, the various agencies? And options | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
should be costed so we can all see how much they cost of Brexit will | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
be. If you were simply going to try and make the resolution is more | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
illegal, why did the constitutional committee vote them down? This is a | :05:12. | :05:20. | |
report about future treaty amendments down the road for years | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
to come. This was not the main focus of the report, it was a side | :05:26. | :05:34. | |
reference, in which was put the idea for Association partnerships. Will | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
you push for the idea before the full parliament? I must see what the | :05:40. | :05:47. | |
text is. You said there is a widespread view in labour that if | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
the Brexit view is bad we should not exclude everything, I take it you | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
mean another referendum. When you were named down these amendments, | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
was this just acting on your own initiative, or acting on behalf of | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
the Labour Party? I am just be humble lame-duck MEP in the European | :06:10. | :06:17. | |
Parliament. It makes sense from any point of view that if the course of | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
action you have embarked on turns out to be much more costly and | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
disastrous than you had anticipated, that you might want the chance to | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
think again. You might come to the same conclusion, of course, but you | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
might think, wait a minute, let's have a look at this. But let's be | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
clear, even though you are deputy leader of Labour in the European | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
Parliament, you're acting alone and not as Labour Party policy? I am | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
acting in the constitutional affairs committee. All I am doing is stating | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
things which are common sense. If as we move forward then this turns out | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
to be a disaster, we need to look very carefully at where we are | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
going. But if a deal is done under Article 50, and we get to see the | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
shape of that deal by the end of 2019 under the two-year timetable, | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
in your words, we won't know if it is a disaster or not until it is | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
implemented. We won't be able to tell until we see the results about | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
whether it is good or bad, surely? We might well be able to, because | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
that has to take account of the future framework of relationships | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
with the European Union, to quote the article of the treaty. That | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
means we should have some idea about what that will be like. Will we be | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
outside the customs union, for instance, which will be very | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
damaging for our economy? Or will we have to stay inside and follow the | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
rules without having a say on them. We won't know until we leave the | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
customs union. You think it will be damaging, others think it will give | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
us the opportunity to do massive trade deals. My case this morning is | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
not what is right or wrong, we will not know until we have seen the | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
results. We will know a heck of a lot more than we do now when we see | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
that Article 50 divorce agreement. We will know the terms of the | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
divorce, we will know how much we still have to pay into the EU budget | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
for legacy costs. We will know whether we will be in the single | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
market customs union or not. We will know about the agencies. We will | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
know a lot of things. If the deal on the table looks as if it will be | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
damaging to Britain, then Parliament will be in its rights to say, wait a | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
minute, not this deal. And then you either renegotiate or you reconsider | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
the whole issue of Brexit or you find another solution. We need to | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
leave it there but thank you for joining us. | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
Iain Martin, how serious is the attempt to in effect an wind what | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
happened on June 23? I think it is pretty serious and that interview | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
illustrates very well the most damaging impact of the approach | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
taken by a lot of Remainers, which is essentially to say with one | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
breath, we of course accept the result, but with every action | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
subsequent to that to try and undermine the result or try and are | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
sure that the deal is as bad as possible. I think what needed to | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
happen and hasn't happened after June 23 is you have the extremists | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
on both sides and you have in the middle probably 70% of public | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
opinion, moderate leaders, moderate Remainers should be working together | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
to try and get British bespoke deal. But moderate Leavers will not take | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
moderate Remainers seriously if this is the approach taken at every | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
single turn to try and rerun the referendum. He did not say whether | :09:57. | :10:06. | |
it was Labour policy? That was a question which was ducked. I do not | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
think it is Labour Party policy. I think most people are in a morass in | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
the middle. I think the screaming that happens when anybody dares to | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
question or suggest that you might ever want to think again about these | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
things, I disagree with him about having another referendum but if he | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
wants to campaign for that it is his democratic right to do so. If you | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
can convince enough people it is a good idea then he has succeeded. But | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
the idea that we would do a deal and then realise this is a really bad | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
deal, let's not proceed, we will not really know that until the deal is | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
implemented. What our access is to the single market, whether or not we | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
are in or out of the customs union which we will talk about in a | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
minute, what immigration policy we will have, whether these are going | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
to be good things bad things, surely you have got to wait for four, five, | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
six years to see if it has worked or not? Yes, and by which stage | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
Parliament will have voted on it and there will be no going back from it, | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
or maybe there will. We are talking now about the first three months of | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
2019. That is absolutely the moment when Parliament agrees with Theresa | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
May or not. One arch remain I spoke to, and arch Remainiac, he said that | :11:28. | :11:38. | |
Theresa May will bring this to Parliament in 2019 and could say I | :11:39. | :11:47. | |
recommend that we reject it. What is he on or she? Some strong chemical | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
drugs! The point is that all manner of things could happen. I don't | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
think any of us take it seriously for now but the future is a very | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
long way away. Earlier, the trade Secretary Liam Fox was asked if we | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
would stay in the customs union after Brexit. | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
There would be limitations on what we would do in terms of tariff | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
setting which could limit the deals we would do, but we want to look at | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
all the different deals. There is hard Brexit and soft Brexit as if it | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
is a boiled egg we are talking about. Turkey is in part of the | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
customs union but not other parts. What we need to do is look at the | :12:32. | :12:39. | |
cost. This is what I picked up. The government knows it cannot remain a | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
member of the single market in these negotiations, because that would | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
make us subject to free movement and the European Court. The customs | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
union and the Prime Minister 's office doesn't seem to be quite as | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
binary, that you can be a little bit in and a little bit out, but I would | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
suggest that overall Liam Fox knows to do all the trade deals we want to | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
do we basically have to be out. But what he also seems to know is that | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
is a minority view in Cabinet. He said he was not going to give his | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
opinion publicly. There is still an argument going on about it in | :13:15. | :13:23. | |
Cabinet. When David Liddington struggled against Emily Thornbury | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
PMQs, he did not know about the customs union. What is apparent is | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
Theresa May has not told him what to think about that. If we stay in the | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
customs union we cannot do our own free trade deals. We are behind the | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
customs union, the tariff barriers set by Europe? Not quite. Turkey is | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
proof of the pudding. There are limited exemptions but they can do | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
free trade with their neighbours. Not on goods. They are doing a trade | :13:53. | :14:01. | |
deal with Pakistan at the moment, it relies on foreign trade investment | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
but Europe negotiates on turkey's behalf on the major free-trade | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
deals. This is absolutely why the customs union will be the fault line | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
for the deal we are trying to achieve. Interestingly, I thought | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
Liam Fox suggested during that interview that he was prepared to | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
suck up whatever it was. I think he was saying there is still an | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
argument and he intends to win it. He wants to leave it because he | :14:27. | :14:34. | |
wants to do these free-trade deals. There is an argument in the cabinet | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
about precisely that. The other thing to consider is in this country | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
we have tended to focus too much on the British angle in negotiations, | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
but I think the negotiations are going to be very difficult. You look | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
at the state of the EU at the moment, you look at what is | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
happening in Italy, France, Germany, look at the 27. It is possible I | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
think that Britain could design a bespoke sensible deal but then it | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
becomes very difficult to agree which is why I ultimately think we | :15:07. | :15:14. | |
are heading for a harder Brexit. It will be about developing in this | :15:15. | :15:15. | |
country. So, we've had a warning this week | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
that it could take ten years to do a trade deal | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
with the EU after Brexit. But could opportunities to expand | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
trade lie elsewhere? Australia was one of the first | :15:26. | :15:27. | |
countries to indicate its willingness to do a deal | :15:28. | :15:29. | |
with the UK and now its High Commissioner in London has told | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
us that life outside the EU He made this exclusive film | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
for the Sunday Politics. My father was the Australian High | :15:36. | :15:50. | |
Commissioner in the early 70s when the UK joined | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
the European Union, Now I'm in the job, | :15:54. | :15:55. | |
the UK is leaving. Australia supported | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
Britain remaining a member of the European Union, | :16:04. | :16:05. | |
but we respect the decision that Now that the decision has been made, | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
we hope that Britain will get on with the process | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
of negotiating their exit from the European Union and make | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
the most of the opportunities that Following the referendum decision, | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
Australia approached the British Government | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
with a proposal. We offered, when the time was right, | :16:29. | :16:30. | |
to negotiate a free trade agreement. The British and Australian | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
governments have already established a working group to explore a future, | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
ambitious trade agreement once A free trade agreement will provide | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
great opportunities for consumers Australian consumers could purchase | :16:44. | :16:55. | |
British-made cars for less We would give British | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
households access to cheaper, Our summer is during your winter, | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
so Australia could provide British households with fresh produce | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
when the equivalent British or Australian households would have | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
access to British products Free-trade agreements | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
are also about investment. The UK is the second-largest source | :17:23. | :17:35. | |
of foreign investment in Australia. By the way, Australia also invests | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
over ?200 billion in the UK, so a free trade agreement | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
would stimulate investment, But, by the way, free-trade | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
agreements are not just about trade and investment, | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
they are also about geopolitics. Countries with good trade relations | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
often work more closely together in other fields including security, | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
the spread of democracy We may have preferred | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
the UKto remain in the EU, We may have preferred the UK | :18:06. | :18:19. | |
to remain in the EU, but life outside as we know can | :18:20. | :18:21. | |
be pretty good. We have negotiated eight free-trade | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
agreements over the last 12 years, including a free-trade agreement | :18:25. | :18:26. | |
with the United States This is one of the reasons why | :18:27. | :18:28. | |
the Australian economy has continued to grow over the last 25 years | :18:29. | :18:40. | |
and we, of course, are not Australia welcomes Theresa May's | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
vision for the UK to become a global We are willing to help | :18:44. | :18:54. | |
in any way we can. Welcome to the programme. The | :18:55. | :19:23. | |
Australian government says it wants to negotiate an important trade deal | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
with the UK as efficiently and promptly as possible when Brexit is | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
complete. How prompt is prompt? There are legal issues obviously. | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
The UK, for as long as it remains in the EU, cannot negotiate individual | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
trade deals. Once it leaves it can. We will negotiate a agreement with | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
the UK when the time is right, by which we mean we can do preliminary | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
examination. Are you talking now about the parameters? We are talking | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
already, we have set up a joint working group with the British | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
Government and we are scoping the issue to try to understand what | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
questions will arise in any negotiation. But we cannot have | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
formally a negotiation. Until the country is out. Why is there no | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
free-trade deal between Australia and the European Union? It is a long | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
and tortuous story. Give me the headline. Basically Australian | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
agriculture is either banned or hugely restricted in terms of its | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
access to the European Union. So we see the European Union, Australia's, | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
is a pretty protectionist sort of organisation. Now we are doing a | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
scoping study on a free-trade agreement with the European Union | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
and we hope that next year we can enter into negotiations with them. | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
But we have no illusions this would be a very difficult negotiation, but | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
one we are giving priority to. Is there not a danger that when Britain | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
leaves the EU the EU will become more protectionist? This country has | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
always been the most powerful voice for free trade. I hope that does not | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
happen, but the reason why we wanted Britain to remain in the European | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
Union is because it brought to the table the whole free-trade mentality | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
which has been an historic part of Britain's approach to international | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
relations. Without the UK in the European Union you will lose that. | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
It is a very loud voice in the European Union and you will lose | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
that voice and that will be a disadvantage. The figure that jumped | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
out of me in the film is it to you only 15 months to negotiate a | :21:43. | :21:44. | |
free-trade deal with the United States. Yes, the thing is it is | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
about political will. A free-trade agreement will be no problem unless | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
you want to protect particular sectors of your economy. In that | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
case there was one sector the Americans insisted on protecting and | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
that was their sugar industry. In the end after 15 months of | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
negotiation two relatively free trading countries have fixed up | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
nearly everything. But we had to ask would be go ahead with this | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
free-trade agreement without sugar west we decided to do that. Other | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
than that it was relatively easy to negotiate because we are both | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
free-trade countries. With the UK you cannot be sure, but I do not | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
think a free-trade agreement would take very long to negotiate with the | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
UK because the UK would not want to put a lot of obstacles in the way to | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
Australia. Not to give away our hand, we would not want to put a lot | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
of obstacles in the way of British exports. The trend in recent years | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
is to do big, regional trade deals, but President-elect Donald Trump has | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
made clear the Pacific trade deal is dead. The transatlantic trade deal | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
is almost dead as well. The American election put a nail in the coffin | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
and the French elections could put another nail in the coffin. Are we | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
returning to a world of lateral trade deals, country with country | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
rather than regional blocs? Not necessarily. In the Asia Pacific we | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
will look at multilateral trade arrangements and even if the | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
transpacific partnership is not ratified by the Americans, we have | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
other options are there. However, our approach has been the ultimate | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
would be free-trade throughout the world which is proving hard to | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
achieve. Secondly, if we can get a lot of countries engaged in a | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
free-trade negotiation, that is pretty good if possible. But it is | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
more difficult. But we do bilateral trade agreements. We have one with | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
China, Japan, the United States, Singapore, and the list goes on, and | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
they have been hugely beneficial to Australia. You have been dealing | :24:01. | :24:09. | |
with the EU free deal, what lessons are there? How quickly do you think | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
Britain could do a free-trade deal with the EU if we leave? Well, there | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
is a completely different concept involved in the case of Britain and | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
the EU and that is at the moment there are no restrictions on trade. | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
So you and the EU would be talking about whether you will direct | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
barriers to trade. We are outsiders and we do not get too much involved | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
in this debate except to say we do not want to see the global trade | :24:38. | :24:44. | |
system disrupted by the direction of tariff barriers between the United | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
Kingdom, the fifth biggest economy in the world, and the European | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
Union. Our expectation is not just the British but the Europeans will | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
try to make the transition to Brexit as smooth as possible particularly | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
commercially. Say yes or no if you can. If Britain and Australia make a | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
free-trade agreement, would that include free movement of the | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
Australian and the British people? We will probably stick with our | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
present non-discriminatory system. Australia does not discriminate | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
against any country. The European Union's free movement means you | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
discriminate against non-Europeans. Probably not. | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
It could lead to a ban on diesel cars, prevent the building | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
of a third runway at Heathrow, and will certainly make it | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
more expensive to drive in our towns and cities. | :25:37. | :25:38. | |
Air pollution has been called the "public health crisis | :25:39. | :25:40. | |
of a generation" - but just how serious is the problem? | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
40,000 early deaths result from air pollution every year in the UK. | :25:44. | :25:56. | |
Almost 10,000 Londoners each year die prematurely. | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
It seems at times we can get caught up in alarming assertions | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
about air pollution, that this is a public health | :26:10. | :26:11. | |
emergency, that it is a silent killer, coming from politicians, | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
But how bad is air quality in Britain really? | :26:16. | :26:23. | |
Tony Frew is a professor in respiratory medicine and works | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
at Brighton's Royal Sussex County Hospital. | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
He has been looking into the recent claims | :26:31. | :26:32. | |
It's a problem and it affects people's health. | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
But when people start talking about the numbers | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
of deaths here, I think they are misusing the statistics. | :26:41. | :26:42. | |
There have been tremendous improvements in air quality | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
There is a lot less pollution than there used to be | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
and none of that is coming through in the public | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
So what does Professor Frew make of the claim that alarming levels | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
of toxicity in the air in the UK causes 40,000 deaths each year? | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
It is not 40,000 people who should have air pollution | :27:04. | :27:05. | |
on their death certificate, or 40,000 people who | :27:06. | :27:07. | |
It's a lot of people who had a little bit of life shortening | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
To examine these figures further we travelled to Cambridge to visit | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
I asked him about the data on which these claims | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
They come from a study on how mortality rates in US cities | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
First of all, it is important to realise that that 40,000 figure | :27:29. | :27:35. | |
29,000, which are due to fine particles, and another 11,000 | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
I will just talk about this group for a start. | :27:42. | :27:49. | |
These are what are known as attributable deaths. | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
Known as virtual deaths, they come from a complex statistical model. | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
Quite remarkably it all comes from just one number and this | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
was based on a study of US cities and they found out that | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
by monitoring these cities over decades that the cities which had | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
a higher level of pollution had a higher mortality rate. | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
They estimated that there was a 6% increased risk of dying | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
each year for each small increase in pollution. | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
So this is quite a big figure, but it is important to realise | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
it is only a best estimate and the committee that advises | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
the government says that this figure could be between 1% and 12%. | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
So this 6% figure is used to work out the 29,000 | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
Yes, through a rather complex statistical model. | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
And a similar analysis gives rise to the 11,000 attributable deaths | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
How much should we invest in cycling? | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
Should we build a third runway at Heathrow? | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
We need reliable statistics to answer those questions, | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
but can we trust the way data is being used by campaigners? | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
I think there are people who have such a passion for the environment | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
and for air pollution that they don't really | :29:15. | :29:16. | |
see it as a problem if they are deceiving the public. | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
Greenpeace have been running a campaign claiming that breathing | :29:23. | :29:24. | |
London's air is the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
If you smoke 15 cigarettes a day through your adult life, | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
that will definitely take ten years off your life expectancy. | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
If you are poor and you are in social class five, | :29:36. | :29:37. | |
compared to social class one, that would take seven | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
If you are poor and you smoke, that will take 17 years off your life. | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
Now, we are talking about possibly, if we could get rid of all | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
of the cars in London and all of the road transport, | :29:49. | :29:50. | |
we could make a difference of two micrograms per metre squared in air | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
pollution which might save you 30 days of your life. | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
There is no doubt that air pollution is bad for you, | :30:00. | :30:01. | |
but if we exaggerate the scale of the problem and the impact | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
on our health, are we at risk of undermining the case for making | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
And we are joined now by the Executive Director | :30:09. | :30:18. | |
You have called pollution and national crisis and a health | :30:19. | :30:37. | |
emergency. Around the UK are levels increasing or falling? They are | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
remaining fairly static in London. Nationally? If you look at the | :30:41. | :30:51. | |
studies on where air pollution is measured, in 42 cities around the | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
UK, 38 cities were found to be breaking the legal limit on air | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
pollution so basically all of the cities were breaking the limit so if | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
you think eight out of ten people live in cities, obviously, this is | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
impacting a lot of people around the UK. We have looked at in missions of | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
solvent dioxide, they have fallen and since 1970, nitrogen dioxide is | :31:14. | :31:23. | |
down 69%. Let me show you a chart. There are the nitrogen oxides which | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
we have all been worried about. That chart shows a substantial fall from | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
the 1970s, and then a really steep fall from the 1980s. That is | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
something which is getting better. You have to look at it in the round. | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
If you look at particulates, and if you look at today's understanding of | :31:47. | :31:53. | |
the health impact. Let's look at particulates. We have been really | :31:54. | :32:02. | |
worried about what they have been doing to our abilities to breathe | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
good air, again, you see substantial improvement. Indeed, we are not far | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
from the Gothenberg level which is a very high standard. What you see is | :32:13. | :32:21. | |
it is pretty flat. I see it coming down quite substantially. Over the | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
last decade it is pretty flat. If you look at the World Health | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
Organisation guidelines, actually, these are at serious levels and they | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
need to come down. We know the impact, particularly on children, if | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
you look at what is happening to children and children's lungs, if | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
you look at the impact of asthma and other impacts on children in cities | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
and in schools next to main roads where pollution levels are very | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
high, the impact of very serious. You have many doctors, professors | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
and many studies by London University showing this to be true. | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
The thing is, we do not want pollution. If we can get rid of | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
pollution, let's do it. And also we also have to get rid of CO2 which is | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
causing climate change. We are talking air pollution at the moment. | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
The point is there is not still more to do, it is clear there is and | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
there is no question about that, my question is you seem to deny that we | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
have made any kind of progress and that you also say that air pollution | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
causes 40,000 deaths a year in the UK, that is not true. The figure is | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
40,000 premature deaths is what has been talked about by medical staff. | :33:36. | :33:45. | |
Your website said courses. It causes premature deaths. What we are | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
talking about here is can we solve the problem of air pollution? If air | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
pollution is mainly being caused by diesel vehicles then we need to | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
phase out diesel vehicles. If there are alternatives and clean Turner | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
tips which will give better quality of air, better quality of life and | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
clean up our cities, then why don't we take the chance to do it? You had | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
the Australian High Commissioner on this programme earlier. He said to | :34:11. | :34:18. | |
me earlier, why is your government supporting diesel? That is the most | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
polluting form of transport. That may well be right but I am looking | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
at Greenpeace's claims. You claim it causes 40,000 deaths, it is a figure | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
which regularly appears. Let me quote the committee on the medical | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
effects of air pollutants, it says this calculation, 40,000 which is | :34:42. | :34:50. | |
everywhere in Greenpeace literature, is not an estimate of the number of | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
people whose untimely death is caused entirely by air pollution, | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
but a way of representing the effect across the whole population of air | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
pollution when considered as a contributory factor to many more | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
individual deaths. It is 40,000 premature deaths. It could be | :35:09. | :35:17. | |
premature by a couple of days. It could me by a year. -- it could be | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
by a year. It could also be giving children asthma and breathing | :35:22. | :35:23. | |
difficulties. We are talking about deaths. It could also cause stroke | :35:24. | :35:32. | |
and heart diseases. Medical experts say we need to deal with this. Do | :35:33. | :35:41. | |
you believe air pollution causes 40,000 deaths a year. I have defined | :35:42. | :35:48. | |
that. You accept it does not? It leads to 40,000 premature deaths. | :35:49. | :35:58. | |
But 40,000 people are not killed. You say air pollution causes 40,000 | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
deaths each year on your website. I have just explained what I mean by | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
that in terms of premature deaths. The question is, are we going to do | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
something about that? Air pollution is a serious problem. It is mainly | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
caused by diesel. If we phased diesel out it will solve the problem | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
of air pollution and deal with the wider problem of climate change. I | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
am not talking about climate change this morning. Let's link to another | :36:27. | :36:33. | |
claim... Do you want to live in a clean city? Do you want to breathe | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
clean air? Yes, don't generalise. Let's stick to your claims. You have | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
also said living in London on your life is equivalent to smoking 50 | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
cigarettes a day. That is not true either. What I would say is if you | :36:49. | :36:55. | |
look at passive smoking, it is the equivalent of I don't know what the | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
actual figure is, I can't remember offhand, but it is the equivalent | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
effect of about ten cigarettes being smoked passively. The question is in | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
terms of, you are just throwing me out all of these things... I am | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
throwing things that Greenpeace have claimed. Greenpeace have claimed | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
that living in London is equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day and | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
that takes ten years off your life. Professor Froome made it clear to us | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
that living in London your whole life with levels of pollution does | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
take time off your life but it takes nine months of your life. Nine | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
months is still too much, I understand that, but it is not ten | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
years and that is what you claim. I would suggest you realise that is a | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
piece of propaganda because you claim on the website, you have taken | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
it down. I agree it has been corrected and I agree with what the | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
professor said that maybe it takes up to a year off your life, but the | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
thing is, there are much more wider issues as well, in terms of the | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
impact on air pollution, and in terms of the impact on young | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
children. We can argue about the facts... But these are your claims, | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
this is why I am hitting it to you. It does not get away from the | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
underlying issue that air pollution is a serious problem. We are not | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
arguing for a moment that it is not. Do you think the way you exaggerate | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
things, put false claims, in the end, for of course we all agree | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
with, getting the best air we can, you undermine your credibility? I | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
absolutely do not support false claims and if mistakes have been | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
made then mistakes have been made and they will be corrected. I think | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
the key issue is how we are going to deal with air pollution. Clearly, | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
diesel is the biggest problem and we need to work out a way how we can | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
get away from diesel as quickly and fast as possible. Comeback and see | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
us in the New Year and we will discuss diesel. Thank you. | :38:59. | :39:00. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :39:01. | :39:02. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
Coming up in the North West: Do the maths - | :39:06. | :39:18. | |
why the headmaster here is not feeling festive | :39:19. | :39:19. | |
It is going to affect staffing, more than likely. | :39:20. | :39:28. | |
And that will affect what happens in the classroom, | :39:29. | :39:36. | |
Top of our Christmas wish list were this week's guests - | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
Alison McGovern is the Labour MP for Wirral South, and Chris | :39:41. | :39:42. | |
Green the Conservative member for Bolton West. | :39:43. | :39:44. | |
We start with the emergency commons debate on Aleppo. | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
We start with the emergency Commons debate on Aleppo. | :39:49. | :39:50. | |
The former Chancellor George Osborne made his first backbench | :39:51. | :39:52. | |
contribution since 2003, saying the decision of MPs | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
against military intervention has contributed to the tragedy. | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
Tens of thousands of people have been killed as a result. | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
Millions of refugees have been sent from their homes across the world. | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
We have allowed a terrorist state to emerge in the form of Isis, | :40:10. | :40:16. | |
Key allies like Lebanon and Jordan are destabilised. | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
The refugee crisis has transformed the politics across Europe, | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
allowed fascism to rise in the eastern Europe, created | :40:27. | :40:28. | |
That is the price of not intervening. | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
With the benefit of hindsight, were we right not to intervene in 2013? | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
I think looking at the situation at the time, we knew chemical | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
weapons were being used against men, women and children. | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
In the west, we had pretty much stopped that from happening. | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
To have that red line and in our parliament to vote against it, | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
which had an incredible effect on the international community | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
which stopped the United States from intervening and getting | :41:02. | :41:10. | |
involved, we can't say it directly links to what we are seeing today... | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
I think now perhaps we should have done. | :41:14. | :41:16. | |
You said that every day you regret that this is happening, | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
but do you regret the decision in 2013? | :41:21. | :41:27. | |
I said that I will live with my vote in 2013 for the rest of my life. | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
And actually I think there is an agreement | :41:32. | :41:33. | |
across the House of Commons that we had much as a body politic | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
What I really wish that we had done more was to bring | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
Because in the end he failed to persuade the house. | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
We should have brought him back and back with the strategy | :41:45. | :41:46. | |
In fact, in that debate when George Osborne spoke, | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
we had cross-party support for the Foreign Secretary to do more | :41:51. | :41:52. | |
to put a strategy on the table to protect civilians. | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
You are the chair of the all-party group on Syria. | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
When we look at what is happening now, what could we do? | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
Where can we succeed where the UN has failed time after time? | :42:05. | :42:06. | |
There are three things that the British government | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
Firstly, getting people out safely, and the rescue we are seeing | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
at the moment in Syria is far from safe. | :42:13. | :42:14. | |
It looks like Assad has even been attacking people | :42:15. | :42:16. | |
So we could have monitors in there to protect people. | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
There are still besieged cities remaining to get aid into them. | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
And 221 parliamentarians want the government to do that | :42:28. | :42:29. | |
And finally, the British government has military assets | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
in the region that we could be using for monitoring and tracking, | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
so that we can build up evidence so that Assad can be prosecuted. | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
These are all things that the government has yet to agree | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
Why is the Prime Minister not interested? | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
David Cameron three years ago made every concession | :42:49. | :42:50. | |
he could to Ed Miliband, every concession that was demanded, | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
and the Labour Party then voted against David Cameron. | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
It is very difficult now that the decision | :43:01. | :43:14. | |
was made not to intervene, we are in a very difficult position. | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
You can talk about air drops, you can talk about safe zones, | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
but the Russians now have filled the void. | :43:24. | :43:25. | |
Are we going to have British transport aircraft | :43:26. | :43:27. | |
flying over a stereo, who we don't know what | :43:28. | :43:29. | |
We don't know if people will be using ground to air weapons. | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
There was a Christmas gift from central government | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
Local authorities have been freed up to accelerate a tax increase | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
a few MPs spotted not everyone's present is the same size. | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
If you raise the council tax in Windsor and Maidenhead, | :43:49. | :43:50. | |
If you raise the council tax precept in Liverpool or Newcastle, | :43:51. | :44:01. | |
Is she saying that older people, frail, elderly, vulnerable people, | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
are less valuable in our big cities than they are in wealthier | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
So has Liverpool City Council started writing its | :44:08. | :44:16. | |
Claire Hamilton has been finding out. | :44:17. | :44:18. | |
The Communities Secretary, bearing gifts for local authorities. | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
Powers to raise council tax to pay for social care. | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
Turn back the clock and his predecessor took a different view, | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
determined to stop them at all costs. | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
Anyone using loopholes, like the democracy dodgers who tried | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
to creep in under the radar, we will make sure they pay. | :44:37. | :44:47. | |
Back to the future, and Sajid Javid said there would be | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
Councils will be granted the flexibility to raise the precept | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
by up to 3% next year and the year after. | :44:54. | :44:55. | |
But it's not quite the early Christmas present local | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
At this care centre, run jointly by Liverpool City Council | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
and the NHS, patients regain independence after recovering | :45:02. | :45:03. | |
from hospital treatment and before going home. | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
After being here and experiencing it, I would be happy | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
I think the government should put some money in as well. | :45:10. | :45:25. | |
Liverpool City Council is considering a 10% | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
council tax increase, but even that is not enough. | :45:30. | :45:31. | |
All they are allowing us to do is to bring forward by 1% additional | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
each year rises they had already decreed were absolutely | :45:35. | :45:36. | |
So this is really not increasing the amount of money | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
But how do other council tax payers feel? | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
Well, I don't think it should be coming from the people, it should be | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
The problem with council tax is there is no way | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
It just goes to this big pot in town. | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
I just think we've all got to bite the bullet quite honestly and pay. | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
Councils like Liverpool say they are being squeezed from both sides. | :46:01. | :46:10. | |
80% of properties in the city are in the lowest council tax bands, | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
Liverpool gets less than a third of its main income from council tax. | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
In Conservative controlled Trafford, it's just over half. | :46:20. | :46:21. | |
And in affluent Cheshire East, another Conservative council, | :46:22. | :46:23. | |
So every 1% rise there is worth double | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
Experts say that the social care crisis has been | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
But successive governments have failed to deal with it. | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
Fundamentally, there is this problem of not responding to the challenge | :46:37. | :46:38. | |
of the population getting older, political parties have tried to get | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
It fails every time because it's a hot potato. | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
Fundamentally, there needs to be some new taxis or tax increases | :46:46. | :46:52. | |
Fundamentally, there needs to be some new taxes or tax increases | :46:53. | :46:54. | |
to pay for this and no government wants to actually advocate that. | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
The debate about how we fund care for an ageing population will go | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
Chris, the British Red Cross has described social care in the UK | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
in 2016 as a humanitarian crisis that is getting worse. | :47:06. | :47:07. | |
A humanitarian crisis in our country. | :47:08. | :47:09. | |
Why is the Prime Minister adding on bits and bobs instead | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
I think the Prime Minister recognises the problems | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
That's why we are taking action to allow councils | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
to increase the council tax and increase it further. | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
Actually, councils can increase above what the government | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
is suggesting, but they have to have a conversation with local | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
I think the local residents you've just shown would accept a further | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
increase in council tax to pay for local services. | :47:36. | :47:48. | |
There seems to be something unfair about this mathematical equation. | :47:49. | :47:50. | |
The places that need more funding in social care have less revenue | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
when it comes to council tax, so they're incremental increase | :47:54. | :47:55. | |
will bring them less money and they need it most. | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
There is a huge difference in performance of councils around | :47:59. | :48:00. | |
the country in terms of what the are actually delivering. | :48:01. | :48:02. | |
Some councils can do more work, to make sure the money needed | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
for social care gets there, rather than giving | :48:06. | :48:07. | |
Are you disputing more money is needed? | :48:08. | :48:18. | |
They have just spent ?1 million on Jacuzzis | :48:19. | :48:20. | |
There is a great deal of work that could be done to improve | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
There was a proposal to save millions by combining Bolton | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
and Wigan refuge collection together, so the money is there. | :48:29. | :48:30. | |
Do you think there is enough money for social care? | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
And perhaps the government does need to intervene, but since 2010, | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
council reserves have increased by ?9 billion across the country. | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
There are substantial reserves that could be and should be | :48:43. | :48:44. | |
Once the reserves are gone, they are gone. | :48:45. | :49:04. | |
to councils to pour every penny you have saved out offers | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
I just don't think it's a sustainable idea to say | :49:08. | :49:09. | |
to councils to pour every penny you have saved out offers | :49:10. | :49:12. | |
on social care now, when, as the academic on the film | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
they are set, this is a product of a changing | :49:17. | :49:18. | |
And that is creating a financial crisis for our country because we've | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
simply not found a way to fund that ageing population. | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
And what the problem is, the government decided to cut... | :49:27. | :49:28. | |
Some councils are spending money on Jacuzzis and saunas. | :49:29. | :49:30. | |
Maybe that needs to be put in other areas? | :49:31. | :49:32. | |
The government decided in 2010 they would put local authorities | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
The government decided in 2010 they would cut local authorities | :49:38. | :49:39. | |
that do preventative work and allow people to get into a crisis, | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
so they end up in hospital, which is the expense of bit. | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
So actually the government strategy has been financially | :49:46. | :49:47. | |
Of course, we can all pick our favourite bit of council spending | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
that we don't like and say, they shouldn't be doing that, | :49:52. | :49:53. | |
they could spend that on something else. | :49:54. | :49:55. | |
We were part of the cross-party coalition to try to come up | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
with a sustainable plan for the future. | :49:59. | :50:00. | |
I think that if you did it in a more preventative way, | :50:01. | :50:02. | |
But it needs to be a combination of things like the government keeps | :50:03. | :50:17. | |
cutting and cutting corporation tax unnecessarily, so looking | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
at where central government could manage its finances better. | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
What do you say to that about corporation tax? | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
Well, actually, I think there is more that councils can do. | :50:33. | :50:41. | |
But I am getting to the position where I think the government should | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
I'm not there yet, but I think we are on the verge of that decision. | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
I hope we are able to find a cross-party coalition | :50:50. | :50:51. | |
on spending on care because it's definitely necessary. | :50:52. | :50:53. | |
The worry that I have is we have been down this road | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
And what happens, you come to an election and the Tory party | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
is fretting about the grey vote and the pull out. | :51:01. | :51:02. | |
We were accused of death taxes and everything, | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
Staff room Christmas do's in Bury, Blackburn and Knowsley might have | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
been livelier than usual this year as they celebrate being winners | :51:12. | :51:13. | |
But in West Cheshire and central Manchester, | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
where budgets will be cut, teachers may have been left | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
However the maths lesson is delivered, overall, schools | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
It's trigonometry time in this year 9 maths lesson at Burnage Academy. | :51:24. | :51:45. | |
But it is sums of a different kind bothering the head. | :51:46. | :51:47. | |
He thinks up to 10% will be cut from his school's budget | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
You can't take 10%, save that money from the running | :51:51. | :52:02. | |
costs of the school, it is going to affect | :52:03. | :52:04. | |
And that will of course affect what happens in the classroom, | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
This school has 950 pupils, some with complex needs and many | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
You don't have to spend the same amount of money educating | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
for example a grammar school child, as you do a child who is two, | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
three, four, five years behind in the reading age. | :52:23. | :52:24. | |
We're running out of money money very very quickly. | :52:25. | :52:38. | |
There are winners and losers across our region from this | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
Amongst the winners are Blackpool, Knowsley and Bari, who are all | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
seeing a 2% increase in their funding. | :52:45. | :52:45. | |
Amongst the winners are Blackpool, Knowsley and Bury, who are all | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
seeing a 2% increase in their funding. | :52:49. | :52:50. | |
The biggest losers are schools like this one in Manchester. | :52:51. | :52:52. | |
Also losing out is Cheshire West and Chester schools. | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
Those figures are just for the first year of this new formula. | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
Government says the settlement makes things fairer and some | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
What has been created over time is a funding system that allows | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
similar schools with similar students to receive levels | :53:07. | :53:08. | |
of funding so different that they put some young people | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
This is so keenly anticipated by underfunded local authorities | :53:12. | :53:21. | |
The changes may be welcomed in Trafford but not | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
in Ellesmere Port and Neston where schools will lose out. | :53:28. | :53:29. | |
I think there is a slight weighting towards rural areas. | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
But I think really the core problem is that school funding has not been | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
The National Audit Office warned this week that there | :53:37. | :53:45. | |
was a ?3 billion gap in funding for schools. | :53:46. | :53:54. | |
That means in Burnage and beyond, weather you are a winner or loser | :53:55. | :53:57. | |
this week, more pressure on budgets appears inevitable. | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
And we're joined by Valanteen Mulholland, | :54:02. | :54:04. | |
head of policy at the national association of head teachers. | :54:05. | :54:06. | |
Thank you so much for joining us from Brighton. | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
One of the biggest achievements in government since the 1990s, | :54:13. | :54:21. | |
something they could all put their hands up and say | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
was fixing inner-city schools, making sure hundreds of thousands | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
of young people raise their aspirations and have | :54:30. | :54:31. | |
Why break something that's obviously working so well? | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
I over time there's been an increasing imbalance | :54:35. | :54:50. | |
between inner-city schools other schools, and this fairer | :54:51. | :54:52. | |
funding is to ensure that there is a more | :54:53. | :54:54. | |
And we do have the Pupil Premium, so if there are areas | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
where they need additional funding, then the Pupil Premium | :54:59. | :55:00. | |
And we have to get a better balance and we haven't dashed a better | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
A lot of headteachers have said they will struggle when you take | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
into account that in real terms they are losing money | :55:10. | :55:11. | |
because of increased spending on wages, increased | :55:12. | :55:13. | |
So actually even the schools that are gaining are not | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
I appreciate it very difficult with increasing wages and pensions, | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
But we are still in a very difficult position with the economy. | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
We have to make sure we balance the economy. | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
That there isn't a limitless pot of money. | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
We have to make some tough decisions? | :55:31. | :55:32. | |
The issue is we have the Tory government seeking to | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
We have a situation in Merseyside where, as I understand it, | :55:36. | :55:42. | |
Knowsley will gain whilst Liverpool and Wiral will lose out. | :55:43. | :55:45. | |
Well, you don't hardly think of Knowsley as inner-city. | :55:46. | :55:47. | |
Actually, it seems to me that instead of trying to make sure that | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
all schools are funded decently and making sure that they can cope | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
with pensions increasing and paying our teachers properly, | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
what we've got is the Tories, as usual, seeking to divide people. | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
Well, I don't think that's the right approach. | :56:00. | :56:01. | |
Will it prove to be incredibly divisive? | :56:02. | :56:09. | |
So, the national funding formula had to happen because currently | :56:10. | :56:11. | |
the funding is allocated based on factors from about ten years ago. | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
And a lot of schools and local authorities, | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
characteristics of pupils have changed so fundamentally. | :56:20. | :56:21. | |
The big problem is, so we welcome the fact it's happening, | :56:22. | :56:23. | |
the big problem is that it's happening at a time schools | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
the big problem is that it's happening at a time where schools | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
are seeing enormous real terms cuts in funding. | :56:33. | :56:33. | |
And the National Audit Office published a report on Monday | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
which showed that by 2019, were going to see a drop in funding | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
of 8% because of other government policies. | :56:40. | :56:41. | |
If we didn't have this shortage, then the winners and losers coming | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
out of this formula wouldn't be hit so badly. | :56:47. | :56:48. | |
Do you think any of our parties have a solution when it | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
Do you trust the Labour Party any more than you trust | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
the Conservative Party with educational policy? | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
Taking it outside party politics, we did need this | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
They have tried quite hard to reflect the characteristics | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
of pupils, and we welcome the fact that originally they were going | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
of pupils, and we welcome the fact that originally they were not | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
going to have a factor for schools where there are a lot of pupils | :57:25. | :57:27. | |
moving in and out in every year, so they have | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
The main problem is that people cannot afford to lose even a maximum | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
of 3% that they are going to lose at this time. | :57:35. | :57:36. | |
When you look at some schools, the percentage of young people | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
on free school meals, so a key indicator of poverty, | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
The demographic in that area had changed and they didn't | :57:44. | :57:55. | |
Well, it's a completely fair point that we are the factors that | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
were being taken into account have shifted, of course policy | :58:03. | :58:04. | |
I think that's a completely fair point. | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
But she said something very interesting which is actually | :58:08. | :58:09. | |
the trend in policy over the past six years has been to keep extra | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
As council services were cut, as the careers service was cut, | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
the connections and all of that, those responsibilities | :58:17. | :58:18. | |
And that was never reflected in the funding. | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
That national audit report that will at funding | :58:22. | :58:23. | |
It's something like 3 billion will be cut out of schools. | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
I just think at a time when our country's economic future | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
is deeply uncertain, why are we withdrawing from | :58:30. | :58:31. | |
Did the government not realise when the increased the living wage | :58:32. | :58:39. | |
Did the government not realise when they increased the living wage | :58:40. | :58:41. | |
that they would be sending themselves a massive invoice | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
that they would have to pay at some point? | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
I think there are huge implications from the living wage and all kinds | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
of service providers are going to find it | :58:52. | :58:53. | |
Headteachers will say they will have to compromise children's education. | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
In parts of Manchester, ?80,000 will have to be found | :58:59. | :59:00. | |
You're talking about losing two, maybe three teachers. | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
It's very difficult, but we need to find that right | :59:05. | :59:06. | |
balance between the inner-city and other areas. | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
When you say balance, that's just pitting one | :59:12. | :59:12. | |
I don't think that's the right thing. | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
I think you're just asking for people to point at the other | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
school down the road and say, it's their fault. | :59:19. | :59:20. | |
Whereas actually the problem is in Westminster, isn't it? | :59:21. | :59:22. | |
Over the last six years, 1.4 million more children are going | :59:23. | :59:29. | |
So the government must be doing something right. | :59:30. | :59:41. | |
But you're compromising that by taking some of the money away | :59:42. | :59:52. | |
Aren't you risking that by taking some money away | :59:53. | :59:55. | |
I have no wish with all schools to have money taken away. | :59:56. | :59:58. | |
But we have to have a more balanced situation with limited funding. | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
And that's what we have at the moment. | :00:02. | :00:03. | |
We have to be as fair as possible because were still | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
Overtime, with our economy recovering, I would like to see over | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
time more money coming into the education system. | :00:12. | :00:13. | |
We have had massive increases in costs because of government | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
policies on employers contributions to pensions, national insurance | :00:18. | :00:19. | |
and the move towards the new minimum wage now cold the living wage. | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
But the other impact is very much related to your previous story | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
And what we're finding is the cuts and austerity impact on local | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
authorities means that services like child and adult | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
mental health services, like speech therapy, | :00:33. | :00:33. | |
like all the kind of services that children need to | :00:34. | :00:35. | |
engage with learning, are being cut dramatically. | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
So then schools are having to step in. | :00:38. | :00:39. | |
It's never about one thing in isolation, is it? | :00:40. | :00:41. | |
Many thanks for joining us from Brighton. | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
Plenty more political excitement this week - | :00:44. | :00:44. | |
here's Kevin Fitzpatrick with a roundup. | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
Cowed by the class of '92 - opponents of Salford City's | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
expansion plans say the council's bowed to pressure from | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
We have done petitions and surveys and we know most | :00:56. | :01:08. | |
We are fighting celebrity power and prestige. | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
Small but beautifully formed - Parents and Governors at 22-pupil | :01:12. | :01:13. | |
Pott Shrigley School near Macclesfield gave evidence | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
to councillors on why they shouldn't close it. | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
Unemployment in the region rose by more than 5% over | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
That compares with a slight drop in the jobless total nationally. | :01:20. | :01:30. | |
Fido's furious on the Fylde - or his owners are at least - | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
dog walkers want a rethink over plans to restrict access to beaches | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
and parks and limit the number which can be walked at any one time. | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
We would just like the council to enforce the dog fouling rules | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
Not add more to the responsible dog owners that live in the file. | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
Not add more to the responsible dog owners that live in the Fyld. | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
And information is slightly more freely available | :01:53. | :01:53. | |
on the Isle of Man - FOI requests are being extended | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
That's it from us, and indeed what have been a very | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
Thank you to Alison McGovern and Chris Green. | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
Have a smashing Christmas and I'll see you again on 15 January. | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
Will Article 50 be triggered by the end of March, | :02:07. | :02:19. | |
will President Trump start work on his wall and will | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
Front National's Marine Le Pen provide the next electoral shock? | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
2016, the Brexit for Britain and Trump for the rest of the world. | :02:28. | :02:50. | |
Let's look back and see what one of you said about Brexit. | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
If Mr Cameron loses the referendum and it is this year, | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
will he be Prime Minister at the end of the year? | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
I don't think he will lose the referendum, so I'm feeling | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
It was clear if he did lose the referendum he would be out. I would | :03:07. | :03:14. | |
like to say in retrospect I saw that coming on a long and I was just | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
saying it to make good television! It is Christmas so I will be benign | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
towards my panel! It is possible, Iain, that not much happens to | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
Brexit in 2017, because we have a host of elections coming up in | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
Europe, the French won in the spring and the German one in the autumn | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
will be the most important. And until we know who the next French | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
president is and what condition Mrs Merkel will be in, not much will | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
happen? I think that is the likeliest outcome. Short of some | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
constitutional crisis involving the Lords relating to Brexit, it is | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
pretty clear it is difficult to properly begin the negotiations | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
until it becomes clear who Britain is negotiating with. It will come | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
down to the result of the German election. Germany is the biggest | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
contributor and if they keep power in what is left of the European | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
Union, will drive the negotiation and we will have to see if it will | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
be Merkel. So this vacuum that has been seen and has been filled by | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
people less than friendly to the government, even when we know | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
Article 50 has been triggered and even if there is some sort of white | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
paper to give us a better idea of the broad strategic outlines of what | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
they mean by Brexit, the phoney war could continue? Iain is right. 2017 | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
is going to be a remarkably dull year for Brexit as opposed to 2016. | :04:48. | :04:55. | |
We will have the article and a plan. The plan will say I would like the | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
moon on a stick please. The EU will say you can have a tiny bit of moon | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
and a tiny bit of stick and there will be an impasse. That will go on | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
until one minute to midnight 2018 which is when the EU will act. There | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
is one thing in the Foreign Office which is more important, as David | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
Davis Department told me, they know there is nothing they can do until | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
the French and Germans have their elections and they know the lie of | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
the land, but the people who will be more helpful to us are in Eastern | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
Europe and in Scandinavia, the Nordic countries. We can do quite a | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
lot of schmoozing to try and get them broadly on side this year? It | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
is very difficult because one of the things they care most about in | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
Eastern Europe is the ability for Eastern European stew come and work | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
in the UK. That is key to the economic prospects. But what they | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
care most about is that those already here should not be under any | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
pressure to leave. There is no guarantee of that. That is what Mrs | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
May wants. There are a lot of things Mrs May wants and the story of 2017 | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
will be about what she gets. How much have we got to give people? It | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
is not what we want, but what we are willing to give. The interesting | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
thing is you can divide this out into two. There is a question of the | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
European Union and our relationship with it but there is also the trick | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
the polls did to London -- there is also the polls. There is question | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
beyond the Western European security, that is about Nato and | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
intelligence and security, and the rising Russian threat. That does not | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
mean the Polish people will persuade everyone else to give us a lovely | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
deal on the EU, but the dynamic is bigger than just a chat about | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
Brexit. You cannot threaten a punishment beating for us if we are | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
putting our soldiers on the line on the eastern borders of Europe. I | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
think that's where Donald Trump changes the calculation because his | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
attitude towards Russia is very different to Barack Obama's. It is | :07:10. | :07:17. | |
indeed. Mentioning Russia, Brexit was a global story but nothing can | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
match and American election and even one which gives Donald Trump as | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
well. Let's have a look at what this panel was saying about Donald Trump. | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
Will Donald Trump win the Republican nomination next year. | :07:31. | :07:32. | |
So, not only did you think he would not be president, you did not think | :07:33. | :07:45. | |
he would win the Republican nomination. We were not alone in | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
that. And they're right put forward a motion to abolish punditry here | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
now because clearly we are pointless! There is enough | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
unemployment in the world already! We are moving into huge and charted | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
territory with Donald Trump as president. It is incredibly | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
unpredictable. But what has not been noticed enough is the Keynesian won. | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
Trump is a Keynesian. He wants massive infrastructure spending and | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
massive tax cuts. The big story next year will be the massive reflation | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
of the American economy and indeed the US Federal reserve has already | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
reacted to that by putting up interest rates. That is why he has a | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
big fight with the rest of the Republican Party. He is nominally a | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
Republican but they are not Keynesian. They are when it comes to | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
tax cuts. They are when it hits the rich to benefit the poor. The big | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
thing is whether the infrastructure projects land him in crony trouble. | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
The transparency around who gets those will be extremely difficult. | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
Most of the infrastructure spending he thinks can be done by the private | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
sector and not the federal government. His tax cuts overlap the | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
Republican house tax cuts speaker Ryan to give not all, but a fair | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
chunk of what he wants. If the American economy is going to reflate | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
next year, interest rates will rise in America, that will strengthen the | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
dollar and it will mean that Europe will be, it will find it more | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
difficult to finance its sovereign debt because you will get more money | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
by investing in American sovereign debt. That is a good point because | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
the dynamics will shift. If that happens, Trump will be pretty | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
popular in the US. To begin with. To begin with. It is energy | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
self-sufficient and if you can pull off the biggest trick in American | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
politics which is somehow to via corporation tax cuts to allow the | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
reassuring of wealth, because it is too expensive for American business | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
to take back into the US and reinvest, if you combine all of | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
those things together, you will end up with a boom on a scale you have | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
not seen. It will be Reagan on steroids? What could possibly go | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
wrong? In the short term for Britain, it is probably not bad | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
news. Our biggest market for exports as a country is the United States. | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
Our biggest market for foreign direct investment is the United | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
States and the same is true vice versa for America in Britain. Given | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
the pound is now competitive and likely the dollar will get stronger, | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
it could well give a boost to the British economy? Could do bit you | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
have to be slightly cautious about the warm language we are getting | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
which is great news out of President Trump's future cabinet on doing a | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
trade deal early, we are net exporters to the US. We benefit far | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
more from trading with US than they do with us. I think we have to come | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
up with something to offer the US for them to jump into bed with us. I | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
think it is called two new aircraft carriers and modernising the fleet. | :11:15. | :11:24. | |
Bring it on. I will raise caution, people in declining industries in | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
some places in America, the rust belt who have faced big profound | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
structural challenges and those are much harder to reverse. They face | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
real problems now because the dollar is so strong. Their ability to | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
export has taken a huge hit out of Ohio, Michigan and Illinois. And the | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
Mexican imports into America is now dirt cheap so that is a major | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
problem. Next year we have elections in Austria, France, the Netherlands, | :11:54. | :12:01. | |
Germany, probably Italy. Which outcome will be the most dramatic | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
for Brexit? If Merkel lost it would be a huge surprise. That is | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
unlikely. And if it was not Filon in France that would be unlikely. The | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
consensus it it will be Francois Filon against Marine Le Pen and it | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
will be uniting around the far right candidate. In 2002, that is what | :12:27. | :12:36. | |
happened. Filon is a Thatcherite. Marine Le Pen's politics -- | :12:37. | :12:47. | |
economics are hard left. Francois Filon is as much a cert to win as | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
Hillary Clinton was this time last year. If he is competing against | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
concerns about rising globalisation and his pitch is Thatcherite, it is | :12:57. | :13:04. | |
a bold, brave strategy in the context so we will see. It will keep | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
us busy next year, Tom? Almost as busy as this year but not quite. | :13:12. | :13:19. | |
This year was a record year. I am up in my hours! | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
That's all for today, thanks to all my guests. | :13:22. | :13:23. | |
The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at noon tomorrow. | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
I'll be back here on the 15th January. | :13:27. | :13:28. | |
Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
The most a writer can hope from a reader | :13:32. | :14:13. |