29/01/2017 Sunday Politics North West


29/01/2017

Andrew Neil is joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.


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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

:01:07.:01:10.

mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.

:01:11.:01:12.

And in the north-west: Is the Northern Powerhouse picking up pace?

:01:13.:01:15.

Plus, the Lancashire MP taking the lead on loneliness,

:01:16.:01:17.

part of the legacy of the late Jo Cox.

:01:18.:01:23.

Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:24.:01:25.

We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

:01:26.:01:27.

what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:28.:01:30.

In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

:01:31.:01:33.

has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

:01:34.:01:35.

and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

:01:36.:01:37.

And with me, the best and brightest political

:01:38.:01:39.

panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

:01:40.:01:41.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:42.:01:43.

It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

:01:44.:01:46.

Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

:01:47.:01:49.

President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

:01:50.:01:55.

Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

:01:56.:01:58.

where refugees are banned from until further notice.

:01:59.:02:03.

Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

:02:04.:02:05.

on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

:02:06.:02:11.

Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

:02:12.:02:14.

But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

:02:15.:02:23.

as people affected and already in the air were detained

:02:24.:02:25.

US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

:02:26.:02:29.

At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

:02:30.:02:35.

about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

:02:36.:02:40.

Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

:02:41.:02:42.

The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

:02:43.:02:48.

on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

:02:49.:02:51.

of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

:02:52.:02:54.

Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

:02:55.:03:08.

This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

:03:09.:03:11.

Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

:03:12.:03:14.

The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

:03:15.:03:20.

She wants to see the evidence, she wants

:03:21.:03:24.

to understand precisely what the implications are.

:03:25.:03:28.

She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

:03:29.:03:31.

President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

:03:32.:03:35.

understand it, and then will respond to that.

:03:36.:03:38.

I think there are times where, you know, there's always

:03:39.:03:41.

pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

:03:42.:03:44.

The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

:03:45.:03:47.

We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

:03:48.:03:50.

Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

:03:51.:04:02.

vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

:04:03.:04:11.

just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

:04:12.:04:15.

appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

:04:16.:04:19.

wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

:04:20.:04:26.

our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

:04:27.:04:29.

is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

:04:30.:04:36.

Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

:04:37.:04:40.

she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

:04:41.:04:44.

about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

:04:45.:04:50.

Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

:04:51.:04:53.

spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

:04:54.:04:56.

not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

:04:57.:05:00.

criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

:05:01.:05:05.

so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

:05:06.:05:08.

wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

:05:09.:05:12.

moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

:05:13.:05:18.

things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

:05:19.:05:21.

hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

:05:22.:05:29.

like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

:05:30.:05:33.

about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

:05:34.:05:36.

should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

:05:37.:05:39.

have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

:05:40.:05:42.

Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

:05:43.:05:45.

understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

:05:46.:05:49.

the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

:05:50.:05:53.

engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

:05:54.:05:57.

temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

:05:58.:06:03.

population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

:06:04.:06:09.

biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

:06:10.:06:13.

temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

:06:14.:06:19.

wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

:06:20.:06:23.

and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

:06:24.:06:26.

It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

:06:27.:06:31.

arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

:06:32.:06:36.

been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

:06:37.:06:41.

I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

:06:42.:06:45.

this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

:06:46.:06:58.

I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

:06:59.:07:04.

this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

:07:05.:07:08.

desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

:07:09.:07:11.

this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

:07:12.:07:15.

because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

:07:16.:07:18.

is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

:07:19.:07:23.

you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

:07:24.:07:29.

the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

:07:30.:07:32.

with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

:07:33.:07:36.

that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

:07:37.:07:39.

country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

:07:40.:07:45.

the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

:07:46.:07:49.

within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

:07:50.:07:53.

but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

:07:54.:07:57.

should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

:07:58.:08:00.

great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

:08:01.:08:07.

Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

:08:08.:08:09.

protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

:08:10.:08:14.

believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

:08:15.:08:20.

achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

:08:21.:08:24.

number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

:08:25.:08:27.

inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

:08:28.:08:30.

of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

:08:31.:08:36.

where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

:08:37.:08:39.

right place. Thank you for joining us.

:08:40.:08:49.

Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

:08:50.:08:55.

Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

:08:56.:08:59.

particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

:09:00.:09:04.

to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

:09:05.:09:10.

every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

:09:11.:09:14.

May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

:09:15.:09:20.

to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

:09:21.:09:25.

When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

:09:26.:09:33.

can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

:09:34.:09:38.

more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

:09:39.:09:42.

Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

:09:43.:09:45.

to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

:09:46.:09:48.

going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

:09:49.:09:54.

does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

:09:55.:09:59.

relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:00.:10:02.

wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:03.:10:07.

You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

:10:08.:10:12.

American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

:10:13.:10:15.

Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

:10:16.:10:21.

I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

:10:22.:10:25.

implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

:10:26.:10:29.

campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

:10:30.:10:36.

Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

:10:37.:10:39.

executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

:10:40.:10:44.

class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

:10:45.:10:49.

limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

:10:50.:10:55.

President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

:10:56.:10:59.

Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:00.:11:02.

recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

:11:03.:11:10.

Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

:11:11.:11:14.

been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

:11:15.:11:19.

included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

:11:20.:11:22.

such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

:11:23.:11:26.

thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

:11:27.:11:35.

is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

:11:36.:11:41.

in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

:11:42.:11:45.

for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

:11:46.:11:51.

with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

:11:52.:11:55.

May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

:11:56.:12:01.

reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

:12:02.:12:06.

nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:07.:12:11.

him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

:12:12.:12:16.

now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

:12:17.:12:20.

policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

:12:21.:12:26.

well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

:12:27.:12:30.

anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

:12:31.:12:34.

says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

:12:35.:12:38.

These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

:12:39.:12:43.

something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

:12:44.:12:47.

administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:48.:12:51.

situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:52.:12:56.

the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

:12:57.:13:01.

We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:02.:13:03.

communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:04.:13:07.

large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

:13:08.:13:11.

excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

:13:12.:13:15.

Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:16.:13:20.

excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:21.:13:24.

many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:25.:13:28.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:29.:13:32.

Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:33.:13:35.

already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:36.:13:42.

know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:43.:13:44.

situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

:13:45.:13:48.

foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

:13:49.:13:50.

was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

:13:51.:13:53.

keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

:13:54.:13:55.

in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:13:56.:13:58.

the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

:13:59.:14:00.

but might not have intended to be pictured walking

:14:01.:14:02.

through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

:14:03.:14:04.

Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

:14:05.:14:08.

will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

:14:09.:14:11.

told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

:14:12.:14:20.

said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:21.:14:23.

increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:24.:14:26.

that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:27.:14:33.

with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

:14:34.:14:34.

to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:35.:14:39.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:40.:14:44.

going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

:14:45.:14:47.

to Donald Trump her continued

:14:48.:14:49.

backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

:14:50.:14:55.

the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

:14:56.:14:57.

to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

:14:58.:15:00.

that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

:15:01.:15:04.

Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

:15:05.:15:19.

decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

:15:20.:15:24.

United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

:15:25.:15:28.

appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

:15:29.:15:32.

was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

:15:33.:15:36.

protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

:15:37.:15:44.

countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

:15:45.:15:50.

he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

:15:51.:15:56.

look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

:15:57.:15:59.

Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

:16:00.:16:06.

look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

:16:07.:16:09.

of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

:16:10.:16:15.

literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

:16:16.:16:19.

virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

:16:20.:16:23.

been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

:16:24.:16:28.

a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

:16:29.:16:33.

persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

:16:34.:16:37.

you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

:16:38.:16:41.

said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

:16:42.:16:45.

Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

:16:46.:16:52.

into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

:16:53.:17:00.

He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

:17:01.:17:04.

comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

:17:05.:17:08.

policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

:17:09.:17:14.

fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

:17:15.:17:16.

country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:17.:17:26.

terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:27.:17:31.

been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:32.:17:36.

been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

:17:37.:17:40.

would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

:17:41.:17:44.

that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

:17:45.:17:48.

Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:49.:17:53.

for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:17:54.:17:57.

process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:17:58.:18:02.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:03.:18:07.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:08.:18:10.

screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:11.:18:21.

agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

:18:22.:18:29.

is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

:18:30.:18:32.

have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:33.:18:35.

Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:36.:18:42.

then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:43.:18:45.

he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

:18:46.:18:51.

you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:18:52.:18:57.

you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:18:58.:19:01.

asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

:19:02.:19:04.

take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:05.:19:10.

of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:11.:19:14.

terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:15.:19:18.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:19.:19:21.

world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:22.:19:25.

this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:26.:19:30.

the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:31.:19:37.

to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:38.:19:41.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:42.:19:45.

ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:46.:19:50.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:51.:19:54.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:55.:20:01.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:02.:20:07.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:08.:20:13.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:14.:20:17.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:18.:20:21.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:22.:20:26.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:27.:20:30.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:31.:20:34.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:35.:20:38.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:39.:20:44.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:45.:20:49.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:50.:20:53.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:54.:20:58.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:20:59.:21:02.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:03.:21:07.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:08.:21:12.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:13.:21:15.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:16.:21:19.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:20.:21:23.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:24.:21:28.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:29.:21:34.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:35.:21:39.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:40.:21:42.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:43.:21:50.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:51.:21:53.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:54.:21:58.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

:21:59.:22:02.

speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:03.:22:07.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:08.:22:10.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:11.:22:17.

a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:18.:22:20.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:21.:22:25.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:26.:22:28.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:29.:22:34.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:35.:22:36.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:37.:22:43.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:44.:22:48.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:49.:22:51.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:52.:22:57.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:22:58.:23:01.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:02.:23:07.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:08.:23:11.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:12.:23:16.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:17.:23:20.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:21.:23:23.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:24.:23:28.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:29.:23:33.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:34.:23:36.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:37.:23:41.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:42.:23:45.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:46.:23:50.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:51.:23:56.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:23:57.:23:59.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:00.:24:04.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:05.:24:09.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:10.:24:13.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:14.:24:16.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:17.:24:21.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:22.:24:26.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:27.:24:31.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:32.:24:35.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:36.:24:39.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:40.:24:46.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:47.:24:55.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:24:56.:24:59.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:00.:25:03.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:04.:25:09.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:10.:25:15.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:16.:25:19.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:20.:25:21.

being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:22.:25:23.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:25:24.:25:24.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:25.:25:27.

be talking to our political panel. The Lancashire MP taking a lead

:25:28.:25:36.

on loneliness and the legacy Seema Kennedy on that

:25:37.:25:41.

campaign a little later. But here in this studio

:25:42.:25:48.

we welcome Justin Madders, the Labour MP for Ellesmere Port

:25:49.:25:50.

and Neston, and Mark Menzies, We start with Brexit and this week's

:25:51.:25:53.

ruling that Parliament will vote on whether we begin

:25:54.:26:00.

the exit process. Here are a couple of MPs

:26:01.:26:03.

who've said they will vote The Government are trying

:26:04.:26:06.

to persuade the public they can It is all going to end in tears

:26:07.:26:11.

in one way or another unless people reflect positively,

:26:12.:26:16.

and with clarity, on the outcome when negotiations are complete,

:26:17.:26:18.

and that requires, I think, Up until now, I have not heard

:26:19.:26:20.

any convincing argument from the Government about the kind

:26:21.:26:27.

of negotiation that they want to enter into, which will look

:26:28.:26:30.

after the people of So, no surprises on the Lib Dem

:26:31.:26:32.

stance - they want a public vote Much trickier for Labour

:26:33.:26:37.

MPs and Conservative, whose constituents voted to remain

:26:38.:26:40.

in the European Union, Justin, is Jeremy Corbyn right

:26:41.:26:43.

to impose a three-line whip on this, knowing there will be a big crisis

:26:44.:26:48.

of conscience for lots of his MPs? Well, he is the leader so he has got

:26:49.:26:52.

to lead on these things, and I think sometimes people

:26:53.:26:55.

are a bit unfair on him So, I think the shoe's

:26:56.:26:58.

on the other foot. The criticism of him on this,

:26:59.:27:01.

I think, is a bit misplaced. But I do appreciate that MPs

:27:02.:27:04.

who are representing constituencies who heavily voted for Remain

:27:05.:27:08.

are going to be put in a very difficult position,

:27:09.:27:11.

and they have got to listen to what the constituents say,

:27:12.:27:13.

as well as the wider electorate. Jeff Smith and Ann Coffey have both

:27:14.:27:17.

declared that they will vote Do you think we are likely

:27:18.:27:19.

to see more rebellion? I think, certainly, we have got

:27:20.:27:24.

to look at what the votes That is to try to predict

:27:25.:27:27.

where people are going to vote, and obviously Jeff's example, 76%

:27:28.:27:31.

of his constituents voted Remain, and I don't think anyone can

:27:32.:27:34.

argue that he is not reflecting the wishes of his own

:27:35.:27:37.

individual constituents. But I think the majority of Labour

:27:38.:27:39.

MPs will vote to trigger Article 50. Has the Prime Minister had

:27:40.:27:45.

to compromise twice this week, once conceding to the House when it

:27:46.:27:48.

comes to voting on triggering, and secondly she has said

:27:49.:27:52.

she will reveal her hand when it She did not want to do

:27:53.:27:55.

either of those things. Well, compromise is

:27:56.:27:58.

a word that you use. I would actually say

:27:59.:28:00.

"setting out a clear position". So, you know, people have been

:28:01.:28:02.

asking for some clarity The Prime Minister,

:28:03.:28:05.

not just on the issue of the White Paper this week,

:28:06.:28:09.

but more importantly in the speech that she made the previous week,

:28:10.:28:12.

made it very, very clear on the key points were that she

:28:13.:28:15.

would be entering in And one of the principal thinks

:28:16.:28:17.

that people in the north-west is one of the principal things

:28:18.:28:23.

that the Prime Minister's concerned about, is ensuring

:28:24.:28:26.

that there is no free movement of people in the way

:28:27.:28:28.

that we had in the past, and also ensuring that we have got

:28:29.:28:31.

as much access for British goods and services, not just in Europe

:28:32.:28:34.

but across the globe. Well, we learnt a little bit this

:28:35.:28:38.

week in that respect. One man who has an unenviable task

:28:39.:28:41.

over the next couple of years is Lindsay Hoyle,

:28:42.:28:44.

the Deputy Speaker of the House. He is going to have to go

:28:45.:28:47.

through all of those amendments This is going to be an incredibly

:28:48.:28:50.

messy divorce, isn't it? Do you think the two-year timetable

:28:51.:28:54.

for agreeing on a deal, I suppose one of the criticisms

:28:55.:28:57.

we can marvel at Theresa May is that she could have got

:28:58.:29:05.

on with this process a little bit earlier,

:29:06.:29:07.

had she fought the court case. That has been a complete

:29:08.:29:10.

waste of time and money, because every legal opinion

:29:11.:29:12.

was clear that she was not So we have lost considerable time,

:29:13.:29:14.

but we could have been And I think it is very important,

:29:15.:29:21.

from my constituents' perspective, that the rights that we have got

:29:22.:29:25.

from Europe, particularly in terms of employment protection,

:29:26.:29:28.

are retained, and of course for the manufacturing industry

:29:29.:29:29.

in my area that we have as good access as possible

:29:30.:29:32.

to the free market. And that means no

:29:33.:29:34.

tariffs, if possible. Prime Minister back in the autumn

:29:35.:29:36.

made it very clear that Article 50 Article 50 will be

:29:37.:29:44.

triggered in March. It looks set to the timetable

:29:45.:29:47.

for now, but I am sure we will be The cabinet came to

:29:48.:29:54.

the north-west this week. With an industry-themed 60

:29:55.:29:57.

Seconds, here's Carol Lowe. From Westminster to Warrington -

:29:58.:30:04.

the Prime Minister brought the top table of Government

:30:05.:30:06.

to the north-west to unveil her industrial strategy and commitment

:30:07.:30:08.

to the local economy. Investment in the Northern

:30:09.:30:13.

Powerhouse that will bring jobs - that's part of our industrial

:30:14.:30:15.

strategy, which is about ensuring the economy is working

:30:16.:30:18.

across the whole country. Later in the week, the Minister

:30:19.:30:22.

in charge of delivering the Northern Powerhouse came

:30:23.:30:25.

to Ellesmere Port to open Also in the money was Blackpool,

:30:26.:30:28.

which is hoping to bring back party conferences with ?15 million

:30:29.:30:33.

of Government funding I hope it will start to make many,

:30:34.:30:35.

many people in Blackpool feel that Labour's Steve Rotheram

:30:36.:30:43.

launched his campaign for metro mayor of the Liverpool City region

:30:44.:30:48.

with a pledge to improve apprenticeships and fight

:30:49.:30:50.

for more devolved powers. And one of the region's most

:30:51.:30:55.

prestigious manufacturers is celebrating a record year -

:30:56.:30:57.

there were bumper sales So, I met the Prime Minister on

:30:58.:31:01.

Monday when she was in Warrington. The thing that stood out

:31:02.:31:12.

about my interview with her was, in the space of a very short

:31:13.:31:14.

interview, she mentioned She was really reluctant to use that

:31:15.:31:17.

phrase last summer, wasn't she? And can we take from that fact

:31:18.:31:21.

it's alive and well? Does it feel like it's something

:31:22.:31:23.

tangible, Justin, to you? Or is it just a phrase

:31:24.:31:26.

that means nothing? I've always felt it was a little bit

:31:27.:31:29.

of PR spin, and not a lot The announcements on investment

:31:30.:31:32.

this week have been repeated twice before,

:31:33.:31:35.

so there is nothing new there. And particularly I am disappointed

:31:36.:31:38.

for my constituency because we had a bid put in to regenerate

:31:39.:31:47.

Ellsemere Port town centre, which appears to have been

:31:48.:31:49.

completely kicked out. But we do know there will be highway

:31:50.:31:51.

improvement in and Cheshire, funding for new bridges and cycle

:31:52.:31:54.

routes, all around Well, it's no bad thing, but,

:31:55.:31:56.

at the moment, my constituents can't get from one side

:31:57.:32:02.

of the constituency to the other on public

:32:03.:32:04.

transport after six o'clock. The whole area turned

:32:05.:32:06.

into gridlock whenever there's an accident on the M56,

:32:07.:32:08.

because the Government And when you have six times as much

:32:09.:32:10.

investment per person in London as you get in the rest

:32:11.:32:14.

of the country, I think we are miles away

:32:15.:32:17.

from the Northern Powerhouse Well, let's have a look at how the

:32:18.:32:19.

rest of the money was divided up. We found out that, in total,

:32:20.:32:24.

there will be more than ?320 million for local enterprise partnerships

:32:25.:32:27.

across the north-west. Greater Manchester will get almost

:32:28.:32:29.

as much as Liverpool And Cumbria got just

:32:30.:32:31.

less than ?13 million - less than a tenth of what it

:32:32.:32:36.

had bid for. Do you think that Cumbria,

:32:37.:32:41.

Cheshire and Lancashire are missing out because they've not reached

:32:42.:32:44.

a devo deal? No, I think more importantly

:32:45.:32:46.

it is about the quality of the leadership in

:32:47.:32:48.

the local enterprise partnerships... A few of them have dynamic people

:32:49.:32:50.

leading and driving them But to pick up just on one thing -

:32:51.:32:54.

we saw in your package Blackpool For years, people in Blackpool have

:32:55.:32:58.

been crying out for investment Conferences, as you know,

:32:59.:33:03.

on the big scale, have gone People were marched up the hill

:33:04.:33:07.

by Labour promising them a super-casino to be let

:33:08.:33:13.

down at the last minute. This is now starting to deliver

:33:14.:33:15.

to the tourist economy That's something this

:33:16.:33:18.

Government has delivered But certainly come up in Cumbria,

:33:19.:33:21.

they think that the LEP They think they are being punished

:33:22.:33:25.

by the Government for not Well, on Monday I asked

:33:26.:33:30.

a question on nuclear. I mean, nuclear fuels

:33:31.:33:35.

in my constituency, nuclear power is hugely significant

:33:36.:33:37.

for the north-west. Greg Clark, in his reply, started

:33:38.:33:39.

to lay out the nuclear vision, which will impact on great tens

:33:40.:33:42.

of thousands of jobs Nuclear power station in Cumbria -

:33:43.:33:44.

21,000 jobs alone. The Prime Minister has made it

:33:45.:33:50.

clear that she backs it. Now, that, to me, is

:33:51.:33:53.

a Northern Powerhouse. And, Justin, when it comes to job

:33:54.:33:56.

creation and when it comes to industry and when it comes

:33:57.:33:58.

to unemployment, that is somewhere where public perception is much more

:33:59.:34:01.

on the side of the public Government Well, I think there's a whole

:34:02.:34:05.

debate that we need have We know that real earnings have not

:34:06.:34:09.

risen for ten years, and there's millions of people

:34:10.:34:13.

now in insecure And I think when we are looking

:34:14.:34:15.

at investing in industry, we also need to look at what sort

:34:16.:34:19.

of jobs we create. Are we creating sustainable,

:34:20.:34:22.

long-term jobs that allow people to put down roots and invest

:34:23.:34:24.

in their own futures as well? Do you feel there is that

:34:25.:34:27.

pressure in Cheshire as well to form a devolution deal,

:34:28.:34:29.

to have an elected mayor so that you can stand

:34:30.:34:32.

as one voice and say, To put in bids the way that

:34:33.:34:34.

Greater Manchester and Merseyside I think there is a very

:34:35.:34:38.

clear message coming from the Government on that,

:34:39.:34:41.

and I think it does, kind of, contradict a little bit

:34:42.:34:44.

the whole devolution stance, in the sense that the Government

:34:45.:34:46.

is saying, you can have devolution but it has to be

:34:47.:34:49.

on these specific terms. That's not really listening to

:34:50.:34:51.

what local communities are saying. Are they holding

:34:52.:34:53.

communities to ransom? I was up in Wyre this

:34:54.:34:55.

week, which is not far They have no interest in having

:34:56.:34:58.

an elected mayor there, and yet they would be handed money,

:34:59.:35:01.

literally, if they agree to it. No, I think that the town

:35:02.:35:04.

of Wyre are right. And I think there is no such thing

:35:05.:35:07.

as one size fits all. The principle of combined

:35:08.:35:10.

authorities in many parts of the country is absolutely

:35:11.:35:12.

the right thing to do, And I think, in my part

:35:13.:35:15.

of the world as well, I'm beginning to question

:35:16.:35:22.

what is in it for the people that I represent in a combined authority,

:35:23.:35:26.

and I think we are going to see The Government have told us, though,

:35:27.:35:29.

the Department for Communities and Local Government told me this

:35:30.:35:34.

morning that you simply are in a position to make stronger

:35:35.:35:36.

bids if you are part of a combined authority, and a unified voice is

:35:37.:35:40.

better than a lot of single voices. I think some of this

:35:41.:35:43.

is about Emperor's new clothes. But I think it's time that we got

:35:44.:35:47.

solutions that fitted each area, Very quickly, Justin,

:35:48.:35:52.

would you like to see Personally, I don't think it's

:35:53.:35:55.

the right fit for Cheshire. There's lots of different towns

:35:56.:36:03.

with different priorities. It's not like in Liverpool

:36:04.:36:06.

and Manchester when you've got a very clear city

:36:07.:36:09.

centre and hinterland. I would like to see more

:36:10.:36:11.

devolution and more power is going to local communities,

:36:12.:36:13.

but, personally, I'm not persuaded that a mayor is the right

:36:14.:36:16.

vehicle to deliver that. Seven months ago, the murder

:36:17.:36:18.

of Jo Cox shocked the country, and close to the Labour MP's heart

:36:19.:36:24.

was what she called Before her death, the mum-of-two

:36:25.:36:27.

from Yorkshire started a cross-party Now a Conservative from this side

:36:28.:36:33.

of the Pennines is looking At the Seasons group in Preston,

:36:34.:36:38.

older people come together to talk They come, they get a coffee,

:36:39.:36:47.

and they sit and chat These gatherings are organised

:36:48.:36:52.

by Longford community church, but anyone is welcome

:36:53.:36:56.

whether they're religious or not. Figures suggest millions

:36:57.:36:59.

of older people feel Before her murder, Jo Cox had begun

:37:00.:37:07.

planning a Loneliness Commission She wanted it to be cross-party

:37:08.:37:14.

and she wanted to involve lots of partner organisations

:37:15.:37:18.

and have a year of looking at the issue of loneliness,

:37:19.:37:21.

which is a really heading Now, Seema Kennedy and colleagues

:37:22.:37:26.

are taking the mantle on, working with 13 charities to look

:37:27.:37:37.

into loneliness and come up So, Beryl, what was it that brought

:37:38.:37:39.

you to Seasons for the first time? Well, I'd heard about Seasons

:37:40.:37:44.

because I was lonely ,and I was looking for a church

:37:45.:37:46.

as well, but he came here because there were people

:37:47.:37:49.

who were like-minded The highlight of many people's

:37:50.:37:51.

day is the food that The Commission will also look at how

:37:52.:37:54.

other age groups are affected. Key is a charity in Leyland that

:37:55.:38:00.

helps vulnerable teenagers They can meet other young

:38:01.:38:05.

people who have been through similar situations,

:38:06.:38:09.

and we know that they can feel a real sense of

:38:10.:38:11.

belonging to this place. What's your experiences

:38:12.:38:13.

of coming down to Key Youth? Coming here, it just feels more

:38:14.:38:17.

better than being sat at home. I will come here and drop

:38:18.:38:22.

in to colour and talk What she said in her maiden speech,

:38:23.:38:26.

and what we think about, there is more in common and we need

:38:27.:38:32.

to love like Jo and have that great empathy for everybody

:38:33.:38:36.

in our communities. The commission

:38:37.:38:38.

will produce a manifesto and call on Government to take action,

:38:39.:38:42.

but it's also hoped that highlighting the issue over the next

:38:43.:38:46.

year will ensure individuals make And a successful commission

:38:47.:38:49.

on loneliness that crosses party divides would be a great legacy

:38:50.:38:57.

for someone who is obviously You know, Seema was working on this

:38:58.:39:00.

with Jo at the time of Jo's death. And rather than let this drop,

:39:01.:39:07.

you know, Seema feels that she owes this, and is working together

:39:08.:39:11.

with Labour MPs such as Rachel Reeves in order

:39:12.:39:14.

to really drive this, and make it happen as part

:39:15.:39:16.

of the memory, just part And, you know, why this matters

:39:17.:39:19.

is that there are thousands of people in all of our areas,

:39:20.:39:25.

in my constituency, of all age It is people that suffer

:39:26.:39:28.

from bereavement. They may have gone through a health

:39:29.:39:32.

crisis, and they find themselves suddenly isolated,

:39:33.:39:38.

and just needing a bit of support, And there is nothing

:39:39.:39:42.

more cruel or wicked And, Justin, is it something you see

:39:43.:39:46.

in your constituency as well, And it needs intervention

:39:47.:39:50.

from the state? It does, and I think it needs

:39:51.:39:54.

as all to have a look at ourselves There is in my constituency a great

:39:55.:39:57.

organisation that has started having elderly people in who are isolated

:39:58.:40:02.

and getting them a meal, getting them a bit of entertainment

:40:03.:40:04.

and a bit of company, and that really can make such

:40:05.:40:08.

a difference to people's lives. We should do an awful

:40:09.:40:11.

lot more of it. It can be the tiniest

:40:12.:40:13.

thing, that it? There is an organisation

:40:14.:40:15.

called Just Good Friends. A nice plug for

:40:16.:40:17.

Just Good Friends, there. A big thank you to

:40:18.:40:21.

this week's guests, It's time to hand you back

:40:22.:40:26.

to Andrew Neil in London. air-pollution. Thank you for being

:40:27.:40:31.

here. Welcome back and let's get back

:40:32.:40:37.

to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven

:40:38.:40:41.

mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader,

:40:42.:40:47.

Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK

:40:48.:40:50.

should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong

:40:51.:41:03.

for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be

:41:04.:41:08.

challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should

:41:09.:41:12.

come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted.

:41:13.:41:16.

Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long

:41:17.:41:21.

term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going

:41:22.:41:26.

to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be

:41:27.:41:32.

anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe

:41:33.:41:36.

territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until

:41:37.:41:39.

summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people

:41:40.:41:45.

coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees

:41:46.:41:49.

from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on

:41:50.:41:53.

Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in

:41:54.:41:59.

mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world

:42:00.:42:02.

that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when

:42:03.:42:06.

it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the

:42:07.:42:12.

civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500

:42:13.:42:17.

Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a

:42:18.:42:26.

hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now,

:42:27.:42:29.

although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is

:42:30.:42:35.

discovering that being a president is different from being a business

:42:36.:42:39.

man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a

:42:40.:42:42.

backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss

:42:43.:42:48.

with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this,

:42:49.:42:52.

and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial

:42:53.:42:56.

ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any

:42:57.:43:00.

opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the

:43:01.:43:06.

streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an

:43:07.:43:11.

international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit

:43:12.:43:15.

are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have

:43:16.:43:18.

suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you

:43:19.:43:22.

have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal

:43:23.:43:27.

Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who

:43:28.:43:33.

would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one

:43:34.:43:40.

subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in

:43:41.:43:44.

front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic.

:43:45.:43:48.

Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played

:43:49.:43:51.

host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we

:43:52.:43:55.

have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how

:43:56.:44:01.

serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often

:44:02.:44:05.

are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still

:44:06.:44:12.

won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place

:44:13.:44:15.

in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the

:44:16.:44:18.

opposite the next day. Brown did the same.

:44:19.:44:25.

Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide

:44:26.:44:34.

because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on

:44:35.:44:37.

the major government, even though their position on the single

:44:38.:44:42.

currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of

:44:43.:44:47.

leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to

:44:48.:44:50.

dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over

:44:51.:44:55.

Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble,

:44:56.:44:59.

but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in

:45:00.:45:04.

danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political

:45:05.:45:10.

conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we

:45:11.:45:13.

are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that

:45:14.:45:17.

vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would

:45:18.:45:22.

have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece

:45:23.:45:26.

of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial

:45:27.:45:33.

world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to

:45:34.:45:37.

worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the

:45:38.:45:41.

legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a

:45:42.:45:45.

big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year

:45:46.:45:51.

is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely

:45:52.:45:54.

hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an

:45:55.:45:59.

incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you

:46:00.:46:03.

politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've

:46:04.:46:07.

already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You

:46:08.:46:12.

have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to

:46:13.:46:16.

stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies,

:46:17.:46:22.

and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we

:46:23.:46:26.

have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if

:46:27.:46:30.

it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will

:46:31.:46:33.

be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said

:46:34.:46:38.

regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU

:46:39.:46:44.

citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get

:46:45.:46:50.

through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all

:46:51.:46:56.

know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it

:46:57.:47:01.

won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with

:47:02.:47:05.

those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but

:47:06.:47:09.

the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's

:47:10.:47:14.

already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU

:47:15.:47:18.

governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit

:47:19.:47:23.

for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it

:47:24.:47:26.

through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey

:47:27.:47:30.

through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has

:47:31.:47:35.

been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there

:47:36.:47:41.

will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of

:47:42.:47:47.

the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and

:47:48.:47:53.

see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means

:47:54.:47:57.

unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s

:47:58.:48:02.

when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony

:48:03.:48:10.

Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in

:48:11.:48:16.

or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever.

:48:17.:48:22.

But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this

:48:23.:48:24.

week. The Daily Politics is back

:48:25.:48:26.

tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here

:48:27.:48:29.

on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:48:30.:48:33.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:48:34.:48:39.