26/03/2017 Sunday Politics North West


26/03/2017

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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:39.:00:43.

The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,

:00:44.:00:45.

but do the security services have the resources and

:00:46.:00:47.

We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.

:00:48.:00:51.

As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of

:00:52.:00:54.

Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power

:00:55.:01:00.

Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job

:01:01.:01:04.

done" - we'll speak to him and the party's

:01:05.:01:06.

Has George Osborne dug himself out of a hole?

:01:07.:01:10.

Tories in Tatton say George Osborne's convinced them

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of course he can edit a London paper, and serve them in Cheshire.

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And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

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panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee

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and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

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First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack

:01:38.:01:39.

The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,

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but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -

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one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.

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His target was the very heart of our democracy,

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the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres

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of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.

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Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's

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close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity

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at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.

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Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we

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be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary

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response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as

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prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive

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way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and

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national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to

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whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put

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more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor

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sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder

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whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around

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the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,

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as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on

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social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the

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attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to

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the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.

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Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while

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an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the

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weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the

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world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it

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stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for

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years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the

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chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,

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so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of

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London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that

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the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this

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is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think

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from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a

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poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to

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imagine the emergency services and local people, international

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visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our

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Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards

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shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.

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It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values

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that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.

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So, four days after the attack, what more do we know

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The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains

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Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.

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According to a police timeline, that's how long it took

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Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster

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to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...

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to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard

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The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.

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The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:

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"We would like to express our gratitude to the people

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who were with Keith in his last moments and who were

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There was nothing more you could have done,

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you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."

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Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.

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Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp

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The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging

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There should be no place for terrorists to hide.

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We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,

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and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret

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place for terrorists to communicate with each other.

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It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just

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listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,

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legally, through warrantry, but in this situation

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we need to make sure that our intelligence services

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have the ability to get into situations like encrypted

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She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions

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at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out

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But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be

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..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.

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We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,

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the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.

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What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I

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can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,

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because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but

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to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80

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counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,

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using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the

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very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also

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tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring

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this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made

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available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do

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we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired

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or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being

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led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate

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on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the

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attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in

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Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin

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Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last

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year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved

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have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of

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them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians

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in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a

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gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of

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attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at

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least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.

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Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those

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involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is

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going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?

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Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least

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the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the

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only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see

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in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for

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example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the

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security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,

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Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that

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could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at

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least the first indications from what police are saying in London,

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these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of

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the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised

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community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a

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dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised

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individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult

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when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that

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they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the

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work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices

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that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home

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Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps

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like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they

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encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services

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to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for

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that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years

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there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are

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becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more

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and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,

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and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the

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ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not

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when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,

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for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have

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to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of

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these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a

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more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is

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certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying

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to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree

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certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative

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solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide

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but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done

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to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of

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communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our

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lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.

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Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House

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What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of

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Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very

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courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to

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be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident

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of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but

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also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already

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under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and

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security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get

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reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary

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security director, and just as security matters in parliament are

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kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as

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a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the

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issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling

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events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their

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lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is

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it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,

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where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening

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for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led

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to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last

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couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have

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actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would

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expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security

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matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at

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all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the

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security authorities and in particular for the police and direct

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command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it

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because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers

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this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no

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position to comment on the details of the operation but my

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understanding is that the number of people available is what the police

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and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and

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that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it

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not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left

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unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so

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that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able

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to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that

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case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't

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yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody

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involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who

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was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.

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We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were

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concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the

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attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with

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a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it

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is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be

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pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.

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To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the

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witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what

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happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any

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changes need to be made in light of that.

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We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence

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Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced

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the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details

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but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have

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been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has

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been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a

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so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the

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Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this

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simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that

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is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader

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of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals

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who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by

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the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in

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public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been

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reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it

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raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions

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should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are

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kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both

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in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the

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palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the

:17:46.:17:49.

perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was

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a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at

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carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed

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guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to

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look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.

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There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't

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know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will

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find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If

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you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to

:18:37.:18:39.

be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed

:18:40.:18:44.

accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about

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lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is

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important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview

:18:54.:18:57.

of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered

:18:58.:19:02.

view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will

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be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins

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our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on

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Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper

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that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's

:19:22.:19:26.

not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts

:19:27.:19:33.

of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the

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commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime

:19:39.:19:43.

Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has

:19:44.:19:49.

been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It

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doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational

:19:54.:20:01.

mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an

:20:02.:20:05.

agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies

:20:06.:20:11.

that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police

:20:12.:20:14.

cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all

:20:15.:20:20.

countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it

:20:21.:20:24.

will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?

:20:25.:20:31.

Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context

:20:32.:20:36.

of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the

:20:37.:20:40.

departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply

:20:41.:20:45.

not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a

:20:46.:20:50.

discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we

:20:51.:20:53.

all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we

:20:54.:20:58.

will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is

:20:59.:21:00.

possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The

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question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the

:21:18.:21:20.

subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?

:21:21.:21:22.

Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have

:21:23.:21:28.

to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate

:21:29.:21:33.

the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once

:21:34.:21:37.

David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the

:21:38.:21:43.

national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady

:21:44.:21:48.

progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good

:21:49.:21:52.

piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a

:21:53.:22:00.

substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out

:22:01.:22:05.

some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU

:22:06.:22:10.

programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50

:22:11.:22:16.

billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So

:22:17.:22:22.

50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get

:22:23.:22:28.

into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting

:22:29.:22:33.

very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum

:22:34.:22:40.

there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of

:22:41.:22:45.

separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find

:22:46.:22:48.

out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The

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Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which

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is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision

:23:06.:23:09.

of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in

:23:10.:23:13.

a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity

:23:14.:23:18.

and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the

:23:19.:23:22.

Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on

:23:23.:23:27.

Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will

:23:28.:23:32.

see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine

:23:33.:23:37.

thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII

:23:38.:23:42.

powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to

:23:43.:23:48.

avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities

:23:49.:23:55.

Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory

:23:56.:24:00.

footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those

:24:01.:24:06.

EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another

:24:07.:24:13.

regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to

:24:14.:24:18.

have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European

:24:19.:24:29.

regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come

:24:30.:24:35.

in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those

:24:36.:24:39.

powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the

:24:40.:24:42.

parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And

:24:43.:24:48.

if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the

:24:49.:24:53.

Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary

:24:54.:24:57.

legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the

:24:58.:25:01.

constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill

:25:02.:25:07.

and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House

:25:08.:25:10.

of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those

:25:11.:25:16.

powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.

:25:17.:25:22.

David Lidington, thank you for being with us.

:25:23.:25:23.

So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.

:25:24.:25:26.

He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party

:25:27.:25:28.

almost three years ago, but yesterday announced

:25:29.:25:29.

that he was quitting to sit as an independent.

:25:30.:25:31.

His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,

:25:32.:25:33.

"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".

:25:34.:25:36.

But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell

:25:37.:25:40.

criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as

:25:41.:25:42.

Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage

:25:43.:25:47.

was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell

:25:48.:25:50.

opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.

:25:51.:25:56.

Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

:25:57.:25:58.

accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances

:25:59.:26:00.

of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,

:26:01.:26:02.

Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,

:26:03.:26:10.

Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.

:26:11.:26:12.

Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have

:26:13.:26:15.

decided that I will be leaving Ukip."

:26:16.:26:18.

When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014

:26:19.:26:20.

he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.

:26:21.:26:23.

"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring

:26:24.:26:26.

This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.

:26:27.:26:35.

We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.

:26:36.:26:41.

Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your

:26:42.:26:51.

only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at

:26:52.:26:56.

a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not

:26:57.:27:02.

surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the

:27:03.:27:06.

past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage

:27:07.:27:10.

certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime

:27:11.:27:14.

which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had

:27:15.:27:17.

done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering

:27:18.:27:22.

over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a

:27:23.:27:29.

more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he

:27:30.:27:32.

expected to be pushed out your national executive committee

:27:33.:27:36.

tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to

:27:37.:27:39.

answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the

:27:40.:27:43.

last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue

:27:44.:27:50.

surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came

:27:51.:27:55.

out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to

:27:56.:27:59.

answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did

:28:00.:28:07.

jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out

:28:08.:28:11.

of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear

:28:12.:28:19.

is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the

:28:20.:28:24.

party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,

:28:25.:28:29.

you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a

:28:30.:28:34.

pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,

:28:35.:28:42.

doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to

:28:43.:28:58.

rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over

:28:59.:29:02.

the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will

:29:03.:29:05.

rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have

:29:06.:29:09.

a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post

:29:10.:29:15.

Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he

:29:16.:29:19.

said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the

:29:20.:29:23.

skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't

:29:24.:29:29.

it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November

:29:30.:29:35.

the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the

:29:36.:29:38.

party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem

:29:39.:29:42.

money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look

:29:43.:29:48.

forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit

:29:49.:29:52.

test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have

:29:53.:29:59.

been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you

:30:00.:30:02.

will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,

:30:03.:30:09.

not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,

:30:10.:30:13.

he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that

:30:14.:30:18.

but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for

:30:19.:30:22.

the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be

:30:23.:30:32.

interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster

:30:33.:30:37.

attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's

:30:38.:30:41.

extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like

:30:42.:30:47.

Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I

:30:48.:30:51.

personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I

:30:52.:30:55.

will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem

:30:56.:31:00.

within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the

:31:01.:31:05.

way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr

:31:06.:31:08.

Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the

:31:09.:31:25.

problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate

:31:26.:31:27.

communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would

:31:28.:31:29.

extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in

:31:30.:31:32.

Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,

:31:33.:31:35.

as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme

:31:36.:31:38.

vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question

:31:39.:31:42.

too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get

:31:43.:31:46.

you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in

:31:47.:31:50.

Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has

:31:51.:31:54.

left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to

:31:55.:32:01.

go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people

:32:02.:32:03.

in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should

:32:04.:32:07.

have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.

:32:08.:32:13.

Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.

:32:14.:32:20.

Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are

:32:21.:32:27.

becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted

:32:28.:32:30.

myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to

:32:31.:32:35.

trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons

:32:36.:32:39.

resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the

:32:40.:32:42.

democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran

:32:43.:32:47.

parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,

:32:48.:32:53.

I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage

:32:54.:32:56.

has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants

:32:57.:33:04.

to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going

:33:05.:33:09.

to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his

:33:10.:33:13.

constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr

:33:14.:33:17.

Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from

:33:18.:33:24.

Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the

:33:25.:33:26.

opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not

:33:27.:33:32.

always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an

:33:33.:33:36.

e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,

:33:37.:33:41.

overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you

:33:42.:33:49.

are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,

:33:50.:33:54.

Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June

:33:55.:33:58.

the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be

:33:59.:34:02.

absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is

:34:03.:34:07.

right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the

:34:08.:34:10.

European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one

:34:11.:34:14.

another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline

:34:15.:34:19.

the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I

:34:20.:34:24.

have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.

:34:25.:34:29.

You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made

:34:30.:34:33.

the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made

:34:34.:34:37.

it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote

:34:38.:34:41.

Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would

:34:42.:34:45.

win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of

:34:46.:34:51.

that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas

:34:52.:34:58.

I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history

:34:59.:35:01.

proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk

:35:02.:35:05.

often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part

:35:06.:35:09.

of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic

:35:10.:35:13.

policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to

:35:14.:35:18.

sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave

:35:19.:35:21.

certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They

:35:22.:35:28.

freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel

:35:29.:35:34.

still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for

:35:35.:35:38.

Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and

:35:39.:35:41.

we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like

:35:42.:35:47.

Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is

:35:48.:35:51.

to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why

:35:52.:35:55.

can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but

:35:56.:35:58.

you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this

:35:59.:36:03.

than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten

:36:04.:36:07.

years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in

:36:08.:36:11.

2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in

:36:12.:36:15.

2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left

:36:16.:36:20.

us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically

:36:21.:36:23.

gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her

:36:24.:36:28.

record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,

:36:29.:36:33.

nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of

:36:34.:36:37.

thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the

:36:38.:36:40.

size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of

:36:41.:36:44.

thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The

:36:45.:36:48.

problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the

:36:49.:36:52.

argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted

:36:53.:36:56.

her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until

:36:57.:37:00.

she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,

:37:01.:37:05.

just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.

:37:06.:37:08.

Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee

:37:09.:37:13.

into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what

:37:14.:37:16.

people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself

:37:17.:37:25.

with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip

:37:26.:37:29.

to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will

:37:30.:37:33.

come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit

:37:34.:37:38.

Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill

:37:39.:37:41.

and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas

:37:42.:37:46.

Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in

:37:47.:37:52.

the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were

:37:53.:37:57.

Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a

:37:58.:38:00.

Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a

:38:01.:38:06.

Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a

:38:07.:38:10.

party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree

:38:11.:38:13.

with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into

:38:14.:38:21.

2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote

:38:22.:38:25.

Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you

:38:26.:38:29.

fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and

:38:30.:38:34.

see. Very well! Thank you both very much.

:38:35.:38:48.

The council accused of peddling propaganda by spending a quarter

:38:49.:38:57.

But here to tell nothing but the whole truth in the studio

:38:58.:39:04.

this week are two of our most experienced politicians.

:39:05.:39:06.

Nigel Evans is the Conservative MP for Ribble Valley,

:39:07.:39:08.

and Graham Stringer the Labour MP for Blackley and Broughton.

:39:09.:39:23.

And died were talking about the attack on Westminster.

:39:24.:39:28.

was removed from an address in West Didsbury on Friday

:39:29.:39:31.

as the number of arrests across the country in relation

:39:32.:39:33.

to the attack by Khalid Masood reached 11.

:39:34.:39:42.

Graham, this story, very quickly moved to bowl on Westminster to our

:39:43.:39:48.

doorstep in the north-west. As a mentor to MP, are you worried this

:39:49.:39:52.

is something we will see more of? We her seeing less of it. If you

:39:53.:39:58.

remember, I think it must be about... 13 or 14 years ago, there

:39:59.:40:02.

was a police constable murdered in my constituency by extremists in the

:40:03.:40:11.

community and I think the police worry, the special Branch worry from

:40:12.:40:14.

time to time when a brief to me, but they seem to have got on top of it.

:40:15.:40:19.

So, yes, obviously, there are problems. There are some people who

:40:20.:40:23.

take extreme views and it's important that we both educate

:40:24.:40:28.

communicate and inform those people. But you feel as a country we are

:40:29.:40:32.

more in control then we worked ten years ago? You asked me about

:40:33.:40:36.

Manchester which I know in detail. I do think, to use an old-fashioned

:40:37.:40:39.

word, there is more harmony it is not solved, it will be a long

:40:40.:40:51.

time before it is solved. It is being affected by major

:40:52.:40:53.

international events, but I think things are better than they were 13

:40:54.:40:58.

or 14 years ago. Bon Nuttal said that Muslim communities must do far

:40:59.:41:03.

remit the Reed midst. Is that an remit the Reed midst. Is that an

:41:04.:41:07.

uncomfortable truth or is that just an inflammatory and dangerous

:41:08.:41:10.

commentary? I think it's inflammatory, to be honest. I think

:41:11.:41:18.

the day after the terrorist attack, when MPs from all political

:41:19.:41:21.

persuasions spoke about what was behind this and, indeed, it was

:41:22.:41:25.

emphasised by one Labour MP that this has nothing to do with Islam.

:41:26.:41:30.

If this person followed that religion, if he was a proper Muslim,

:41:31.:41:33.

he would not have murdered because Islam is a religion of peace and

:41:34.:41:38.

that is exactly what it is. And yet the last two terror attacks in this

:41:39.:41:41.

country whereby Islamic fundamentalists. Yes, this is

:41:42.:41:46.

home-grown murdering terrorists which is beyond the wit of any of us

:41:47.:41:50.

in this room to work out why somebody is able to become

:41:51.:41:54.

radicalised and then mowed down innocent people walking along

:41:55.:41:58.

Westminster Bridge, including children and old age pensioners and

:41:59.:42:02.

then to come in and start a police officer. None of us can get our

:42:03.:42:06.

heads around it but I will pay tribute to the emergency services

:42:07.:42:13.

but quite frankly, he was shot dead very quickly and those other

:42:14.:42:17.

emergency services. The police team were there in a matter of minutes.

:42:18.:42:23.

Very, very quickly. They are trying to keep an eye on extremist

:42:24.:42:26.

round-the-clock Buddhism is virtually impossible. You see the

:42:27.:42:29.

situation has improved in Manchester but is it an inevitable part of

:42:30.:42:35.

modern life? I think when MPs talk privately, we have always known that

:42:36.:42:39.

we are a prime target for extremists. It's happened, it is

:42:40.:42:47.

bad, people lost their lives and that is appalling and a tragedy. It

:42:48.:42:50.

the security improvements that have the security improvements that have

:42:51.:42:54.

been made over the last ten years... When I first became an MP, you could

:42:55.:42:58.

walk straight in! Part of the charm of Westminster is once you are in,

:42:59.:43:02.

it feels very free. And we need to get that balance right. The police

:43:03.:43:08.

are on the very front-line and they are part of not just protecting us

:43:09.:43:13.

but also welcoming visitors who come in their thousands. Absolutely a

:43:14.:43:13.

level that change. Next - he's probably our most high

:43:14.:43:15.

profile MP and it looks like he's here for at least

:43:16.:43:18.

a little longer. George Osborne started Friday

:43:19.:43:20.

planting trees in his Tatton constituency before the local party

:43:21.:43:22.

gave him their backing That's despite his new job,

:43:23.:43:25.

starting in May, as editor But they did say they'd

:43:26.:43:30.

look at the situation And Councillor Rod Menlove

:43:31.:43:35.

was at the meeting and joins Thank you for joining us on a Sunday

:43:36.:43:49.

morning. George Osborne has told us he was grateful to receive

:43:50.:43:52.

overwhelming support from the party faithful on Friday night. Is that

:43:53.:43:58.

the case? Was overwhelming? It was more than overwhelming. I imagine it

:43:59.:44:01.

was actually unanimous. There were close to 100 people there and these

:44:02.:44:06.

are quite high profile people, these are intelligent people. They asked

:44:07.:44:13.

intelligent questions and gave George several support at the end of

:44:14.:44:14.

the meeting. Another Conservative I the meeting. Another Conservative I

:44:15.:44:17.

spoke to who was there said there was an agreement that his

:44:18.:44:22.

performance will be reviewed, as always, in your's time that he is

:44:23.:44:24.

pleased that that is there because it said the constituency could be

:44:25.:44:31.

reduced. He must prove what he said that he can be a good constituency

:44:32.:44:38.

MP. To my recollection, it wasn't that formal. I mean, clearly, George

:44:39.:44:42.

every year when he comes to the AGM gives us a rundown of what he has

:44:43.:44:47.

been doing and let us not forget he was six years as Chancellor of the

:44:48.:44:51.

Exchequer, 820 47 job if ever there was one. He has a number of jobs

:44:52.:44:57.

that frankly, the time devoted to those will be less than it was at

:44:58.:45:00.

the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I see no problem. I am on the senior

:45:01.:45:05.

management team within the organisation. We will understand

:45:06.:45:06.

what is happening throughout the year and George will come to the

:45:07.:45:11.

AGM... I think he has missed one in the last 16 years because he was

:45:12.:45:16.

called to something in America. So he will be there. Finally, do you

:45:17.:45:20.

see the ethical distinction between being chats of the exchequer,

:45:21.:45:23.

serving the public, and working towards a profit making newspaper?

:45:24.:45:30.

None whatsoever. What is the next question? Fair enough! Thank you. No

:45:31.:45:37.

ethical problem with that whatsoever, would you agree? I think

:45:38.:45:40.

there is a massive political problem. Make me be clear. I think

:45:41.:45:49.

that MPs can have a second jobs, people keep their businesses going,

:45:50.:45:52.

that is understandable. George is taking the Mickey really and there

:45:53.:45:58.

is a direct political contract. As editor of the London standards, he

:45:59.:46:02.

has said he wants to build a voice for London people. He is

:46:03.:46:05.

representing a northern seat. There will be direct conflict over the

:46:06.:46:10.

next four or five years in wearer Crosswell to get the investment or

:46:11.:46:14.

HS2 is completed. Which side will be on? A London newspaper or the North?

:46:15.:46:19.

I thought he was going to say he was going to edit the Manchester evening

:46:20.:46:25.

News as well! He could be head of the Forestry Commission, why not?

:46:26.:46:30.

There is a contract between an MP and his constituency represented by

:46:31.:46:34.

the Association. They seen to be very happy. I think it is probably

:46:35.:46:38.

for George. People want to do a decent job as a member of

:46:39.:46:42.

Parliament. He was once that to suffer. It's a suck it and see if he

:46:43.:46:48.

is able to have these other commitments and maintain his

:46:49.:46:52.

service, public service to his constituency, then he will carry on.

:46:53.:46:56.

But Nigel is right, it is down to party members if they want to be in

:46:57.:46:59.

the process of deselection and they are perfectly happy, that's how it

:47:00.:47:04.

works. It is down to his party colleagues who are putting him up

:47:05.:47:09.

and the electorate has a pretty good history of getting rid of MPs.

:47:10.:47:16.

That's true! Maybe Nigel can't say, but I think the boundary

:47:17.:47:24.

reorganisations, ie will be shouting for the north-west. He wants a seat

:47:25.:47:28.

in London and he wants to get out of Cheshire. I was looking at

:47:29.:47:31.

Parliamentary business this week. There are debates on international

:47:32.:47:34.

affairs, women's welfare, health and social care which will happen in the

:47:35.:47:37.

morning this week in the chamber and unless Mr Hart. He is going to miss

:47:38.:47:41.

them and his priority will be a newspaper. Is that right, is that

:47:42.:47:46.

ethically correct? The outlaws of the house have changed. On a

:47:47.:47:51.

Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday there are morning sittings now which

:47:52.:47:54.

never used to happen in the old days when it was half past two. But

:47:55.:47:56.

George himself will make that decision. He is a decent bloke and

:47:57.:48:00.

if he thinks that somehow or other at the outside interests are

:48:01.:48:05.

conflicting with his response but to his constituency, he will make that

:48:06.:48:10.

decision. But everyone will be thinking, what if every MP took a

:48:11.:48:15.

job where they were busy in the morning? Our democracy would suffer.

:48:16.:48:24.

As long as they are having the voice of their constituency, there is a

:48:25.:48:26.

big worry. These are huge figures. He will earn more than ?1 million a

:48:27.:48:32.

year with what he is doing and some... One of those jobs in

:48:33.:48:38.

particular... Does that matter? Is an absolute terms or six jobs

:48:39.:48:42.

mattering, but decisions he could've taken as Chancellor, can we be at

:48:43.:48:46.

least certain that anybody, whether the energy secretary or the

:48:47.:48:49.

Chancellor, when they make those decisions, haven't got there I am

:48:50.:48:53.

getting a job afterwards? That is where the conflict and the influence

:48:54.:48:57.

comes in. There is another thing that in all the debates you have

:48:58.:49:00.

mentioned, when George was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he

:49:01.:49:03.

would not have been in the chamber for those debates either because he

:49:04.:49:07.

was busy running the economy. He was running the economy for the public.

:49:08.:49:12.

MPs look at the parliamentary date and do what they can. If they are

:49:13.:49:16.

ministers, they are sometimes dragged away to other things. We

:49:17.:49:17.

have to leave it there. So no imminent byelection in Tatton,

:49:18.:49:19.

but plenty more elections On the 4th of May,

:49:20.:49:21.

Greater Manchester and the Liverpool City Region -

:49:22.:49:24.

that's Merseyside plus Halton - On the same day,

:49:25.:49:27.

Lancashire and Cumbria And, although the

:49:28.:49:30.

date's not yet been confirmed, the by-election for

:49:31.:49:34.

Manchester Gorton, following the death of Labour

:49:35.:49:37.

MP Sir Gerald Kaufman, Well, this week, the former Labour

:49:38.:49:40.

and Respect Party MP George Galloway And Labour selected its candidate,

:49:41.:49:47.

the current MEP Afzal Khan, We asked our reporter

:49:48.:49:52.

Claire Hamilton to head to Gorton soon the people of Gorton will get

:49:53.:49:56.

to choose their next. Farzana Ajazz has sold fruit

:49:57.:50:07.

and veg at Longsight Market She says her customers

:50:08.:50:13.

are seeing food prices rise and their pay packets squeezed

:50:14.:50:18.

and that will influence their vote. It's very hard to explain to

:50:19.:50:22.

customers, you know, Obviously, coming out

:50:23.:50:26.

of Europe has not helped. I've always found that

:50:27.:50:32.

if you're a Labour Party supporter, at the end of the day,

:50:33.:50:34.

they do look after people in our class, meaning

:50:35.:50:37.

the middle-class, lower class. They look after people

:50:38.:50:39.

who have less money. The political landscape

:50:40.:50:44.

has changed a lot since Gerald Kaufman was elected

:50:45.:50:46.

MP for Gorton in 1983. With Brexit and Jeremy

:50:47.:50:50.

Corbyn in the mix, the hopeful recipient of

:50:51.:50:52.

this card won't be taking

:50:53.:50:54.

anything for granted. God forgive me because

:50:55.:50:56.

I've never ever been a Tory. I've always voted Labour,

:50:57.:51:00.

like you say, but now, because it's so rubbish,

:51:01.:51:03.

I'm supporting Theresa May. I think amongst the

:51:04.:51:08.

Asian community and, like, my parents, there's always

:51:09.:51:10.

been a bias towards Labour, I think they've always gone

:51:11.:51:14.

with Labour sink due to the benefits and other things

:51:15.:51:17.

that the Labour have always Traditionally,

:51:18.:51:20.

we've been Labour, but... George Galloway says he'll stand

:51:21.:51:25.

as an independent in Gorton. The Liberal Democrats reckon they'll

:51:26.:51:30.

benefit if he splits the Labour vote and the Greens, who came

:51:31.:51:34.

second here in 2015, Can Labour's 24,000

:51:35.:51:37.

majority be dented? We sought after the

:51:38.:51:42.

Iraq war in 2005, you know, Gerald Kaufman had to fight really

:51:43.:51:46.

hard to hold off a challenge from the Liberal Democrats

:51:47.:51:49.

in this constituency so even though you think of it as safe Labour

:51:50.:51:52.

territory, all bets are off right now and it is going to be

:51:53.:51:55.

a really bitter fight, I think. The date for the Gorton

:51:56.:51:59.

by-election hasn't been set. There's a chance it

:52:00.:52:02.

will be two elections for the price of one

:52:03.:52:04.

on the 4th of May when Greater Manchester

:52:05.:52:06.

elects its first ever metro mayor. And here's the list of candidates

:52:07.:52:11.

who've declared they're standing so far, though obviously

:52:12.:52:14.

more could join them. And we expect to get a date for that

:52:15.:52:17.

election confirmed this week. Graham, Andrew Russell predicted

:52:18.:52:30.

this will be a bitter fight. I went to George Galloway's want on

:52:31.:52:34.

Wednesday. It will certainly be lively. All by-elections are likely.

:52:35.:52:41.

I'm grateful that I never was a by-election candidate. I think it

:52:42.:52:44.

will be wisely. I don't welcome George Galloway's involvement in it.

:52:45.:52:49.

in by-elections of upping the in by-elections of upping the

:52:50.:52:57.

temperature. I don't welcome that. Well, people do like it. There was a

:52:58.:53:02.

reasonably good turn out there. He talked about Israel and the West

:53:03.:53:08.

Bank and Kashmir, these issues will appeal to Asian voters important.

:53:09.:53:11.

We've seen it damaged with the party in the past in Tower Hamlets. We

:53:12.:53:16.

have a candidate who has been Lord Mayor, Afzal Khan has been Lord

:53:17.:53:21.

Mayor of Manchester. He is respected in the Muslim community, the white

:53:22.:53:25.

community. He has spent all his political career trying to unite you

:53:26.:53:31.

and Galloway has spent all his time trying to divide. It could divide

:53:32.:53:37.

the labour vote. We have the Liberal Democrat part the candidates say her

:53:38.:53:41.

odds of winning have been slashed because Galloway entered the fray.

:53:42.:53:48.

Are you worried that the student population, the remaining ticket

:53:49.:53:50.

from the Liberal Democrats, could also split the vote? I think in any

:53:51.:53:54.

by-election, the more candidates, the more split votes. When Jackie is

:53:55.:54:01.

right from the Liberal Democrats, there is substantial support for the

:54:02.:54:05.

Labour Party both from the white community and those people from

:54:06.:54:08.

Bangladesh and Pakistan who have been here for generations. I don't

:54:09.:54:16.

23,000 majority? But I think Labour 23,000 majority? But I think Labour

:54:17.:54:23.

can look for words to Afzal Khan as the MP. You'll be lucky to get

:54:24.:54:30.

25,000 voting overall! Always low turnouts. You must be upset to hear

:54:31.:54:34.

that women say that Theresa May has her fault that time. People do

:54:35.:54:38.

sometimes go with the national leader in by-elections. You never

:54:39.:54:45.

know! Unlike Graham, I have the scars of two by-elections. The 13th

:54:46.:54:52.

safest seat, and I lost it! You can never tell with by-elections. We

:54:53.:54:56.

also don't know who the Conservative candidate is. Six weeks to go and

:54:57.:55:00.

they are still not declared. Do we read into that the Conservatives

:55:01.:55:05.

don't care about this? No, no, no! Not at all! By-elections are strange

:55:06.:55:10.

animals and I think Graham is right not to try and predict the outcome

:55:11.:55:14.

of that except that I don't think... But there is no presence there. We

:55:15.:55:19.

delivered a candidate is. The local association will discuss with the

:55:20.:55:22.

candidate. It will be announced candidate. It will be announced

:55:23.:55:26.

pretty quickly and we will fight a very vigorous campaign. I have no

:55:27.:55:29.

doubt at all. But because by-elections are strange animals and

:55:30.:55:35.

we are more interested in the county elections and the Tories getting

:55:36.:55:37.

control back again of Lancashire, that's what I want to see. Graham,

:55:38.:55:43.

are you worried that the Labour Party are trailing in the polls

:55:44.:55:48.

nationally and have an impact on these local elections, the Keogan

:55:49.:55:53.

affects? Of course I am worried. We are 12 or 15 points behind. Samples

:55:54.:56:01.

go up to 19. And somewhere down to ten, but in the middle. Local

:56:02.:56:05.

elections reflect national opinion polls in Manchester, in the

:56:06.:56:08.

north-west, Labour has done better than in national polls. You cannot

:56:09.:56:13.

totally write them out, but we will try. Made a fourth will be a busy

:56:14.:56:15.

day for all of us. We are briefly day for all of us. We are briefly

:56:16.:56:20.

going to head to the world now where two people have been series the

:56:21.:56:24.

injured and 32 others hurt after buildings collapsed in a suspected

:56:25.:56:28.

gas explosion. Window should in houses were splashed in the blast.

:56:29.:56:35.

Another houses were evacuated. More than 100 people were moved overnight

:56:36.:56:39.

into a nearby church. The local MP Alison McGovern has been with them

:56:40.:56:42.

and joins us now. Allison, thank you for joining us. I know you have been

:56:43.:56:46.

extremely busy through the night. What have you been doing, who have

:56:47.:56:53.

you been speaking to? Well, I live about ten minutes' walk from where

:56:54.:56:57.

this happened so heard it, like everyone else in the Wirral area.

:56:58.:57:00.

People from far away seem to have heard the blast, it was so big. They

:57:01.:57:05.

then came up here last night. Mike constituency office is just along

:57:06.:57:09.

the road from where the blast happens so people have just been

:57:10.:57:12.

trying to take care of those who were evacuated and obviously, the

:57:13.:57:16.

emergency services have been doing a brilliant job in making the area

:57:17.:57:19.

safe and looking after those who were hurt and injured. We also had a

:57:20.:57:25.

brilliant local church open their doors to everybody last night to

:57:26.:57:27.

make sure they were OK and could have access to help. This is a

:57:28.:57:32.

devastating event for us in Wirral but I know this community very, very

:57:33.:57:36.

well and they will pull together and put this right. You know, it was

:57:37.:57:43.

late on at night and this is a very busy area, so if this has happened

:57:44.:57:47.

earlier in the day, the consequences could have been even more

:57:48.:57:51.

significant. But as I say, I know this community very well and they

:57:52.:57:54.

will look after each other. A relief because it could have been so much

:57:55.:57:58.

worse, you're actually right. We don't love exactly what caused it?

:57:59.:58:05.

No, we do not know yet. The police and Fire Service are saying early

:58:06.:58:08.

indications seem to point towards a gas explosion but they are on site

:58:09.:58:13.

is now doing their job to find out the cause and to take care of those

:58:14.:58:18.

people who were affected by this. Businesses in new very here will be

:58:19.:58:24.

significantly affected by this, but as I say, this is a strong community

:58:25.:58:27.

that will look after each other. Then he very much for joining us. I

:58:28.:58:29.

hope you get some rest. The North West has lost 12 local

:58:30.:58:30.

papers in the last two years, including the St Helens Recorder,

:58:31.:58:33.

the Crosby Herald But it's not market forces

:58:34.:58:35.

putting pressure it's the Conservative opposition

:58:36.:58:38.

accusing the Labour council of peddling propaganda

:58:39.:58:42.

through its monthly title, # Read all about it,

:58:43.:58:44.

read all about it It looks like a local

:58:45.:58:56.

paper, but it's produced by the local council at a cost,

:58:57.:59:02.

proponents claim, Opposition Tory councillors

:59:03.:59:04.

aren't impressed. It's a complete waste

:59:05.:59:18.

of public money. This has the potential

:59:19.:59:20.

of detracting some of the advertisements away

:59:21.:59:22.

from our free press. This isn't just

:59:23.:59:24.

a Labour thing, though. Conservative councils

:59:25.:59:26.

have had these type of publications so different

:59:27.:59:27.

councils must see a need. Well, I don't think that that

:59:28.:59:29.

need has been proven Wirral already has two

:59:30.:59:32.

free local papers. Government rules state that any

:59:33.:59:34.

council papers can only be published quarterly but this one

:59:35.:59:38.

here has been printed every month. Labour says

:59:39.:59:41.

it's been paid for by saving on advertising costs

:59:42.:59:43.

elsewhere. We're actually spending less

:59:44.:59:46.

and being able to put money And is it propaganda as opposed

:59:47.:59:48.

to a free press which is It's a great press

:59:49.:59:53.

and they hold us to account This is about getting information

:59:54.:59:59.

to residents that they really need. Competition from council run papers

:00:00.:00:08.

is just one challenge Time to tackle those

:00:09.:00:10.

in power is limited. It really is almost impossible,

:00:11.:00:16.

I think, for local paper journalists to really get under the skin

:00:17.:00:20.

of their local councils and increasingly they're relying

:00:21.:00:24.

on council press releases and often they just go into those

:00:25.:00:28.

newspapers unamended. One new initiative designed

:00:29.:00:31.

to help that is the BBC funding 150 new local democracy

:00:32.:00:34.

reporters to cover council meetings and public bodies for

:00:35.:00:38.

all the local media. You and me, the licence payer,

:00:39.:00:42.

I kind of making up for a failure But I think it's got

:00:43.:00:45.

to be a positive. As sales of papers decline,

:00:46.:00:54.

can websites fill the gap? Angie runs an online only

:00:55.:00:56.

operation in Liverpool. If it's a good story,

:00:57.:00:58.

you need good old-fashioned reporting to enable it to be told

:00:59.:01:00.

whether that's a newspaper, The message and the story will out,

:01:01.:01:03.

whatever your medium. Do you feel there is

:01:04.:01:09.

an appetite online for complicated local politics

:01:10.:01:12.

stories, for example? The appetite may be

:01:13.:01:13.

there, but is the money? Or will the likes of

:01:14.:01:19.

the Wirral View further muddy the waters for

:01:20.:01:21.

the world of local media? Many thanks to

:01:22.:01:30.

Graham Stringer and Nigel Evans. Graham Evans and Lisa Nandy

:01:31.:01:36.

join us next week. Now I'll hand you back

:01:37.:01:39.

to Andrew Neil in London. can see you nodding in agreement but

:01:40.:01:43.

we don't have any more time! Thank you both for coming in, Andrew, back

:01:44.:01:45.

to you. So yesterday the European Union

:01:46.:01:51.

celebrated its 60th birthday at a party in Rome, the city

:01:52.:02:08.

where the founding document Leaders of 27 EU countries

:02:09.:02:11.

were there to mark the occasion - overshadowing it, though,

:02:12.:02:15.

the continued terrorist threat, And on Wednesday Theresa May,

:02:16.:02:17.

who wasn't in Rome yesterday, will trigger Article 50,

:02:18.:02:20.

formally starting The President of the European

:02:21.:02:22.

Council, Donald Tusk, made an appeal for unity

:02:23.:02:25.

at the gathering. Today in Rome, we are renewing

:02:26.:02:31.

the unique alliance of free nations that was initiated 60 years ago

:02:32.:02:36.

by our great predecessors. At that time, they did not

:02:37.:02:44.

discuss multiple speeds, they did not devise exits,

:02:45.:02:47.

but despite all the tragic circumstances of the recent history

:02:48.:02:51.

they placed all their faith Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that

:02:52.:03:11.

has the Council of ministers, and on that council where every member of

:03:12.:03:15.

the EU sits he is an important figure in what is now about to

:03:16.:03:20.

happen. We have got to negotiate our divorce terms, we've got to agree a

:03:21.:03:26.

new free trade deal, new crime-fighting arrangements, we've

:03:27.:03:29.

got to repatriate 50 international trade agreements, and all of that

:03:30.:03:35.

has to be ratified within two years, by 27 other countries. Can that

:03:36.:03:41.

really happen?! I don't think it is inconceivable because it is in the

:03:42.:03:45.

interests of those 27 EU member states to try and negotiate a deal

:03:46.:03:48.

that we can all live with, because that would be preferable to Britain

:03:49.:03:53.

crashing out within two years. But I think this is why Labour's position

:03:54.:03:57.

is becoming increasingly incoherent. Keir Starmer has briefed today that

:03:58.:04:01.

he will be making a speech tomorrow setting out six conditions which he

:04:02.:04:05.

wants the deal to meet, otherwise Labour won't vote for it, but if

:04:06.:04:07.

Labour doesn't vote for it that doesn't mean we will be able to

:04:08.:04:28.

negotiate an extension, that would be incredibly difficult and require

:04:29.:04:30.

the consent of each of the 27 member states, so if Labour votes against

:04:31.:04:33.

it we will just crash out, it is effectively Labour saying no deal is

:04:34.:04:36.

better than a poor deal, which is not supposed to be their position.

:04:37.:04:38.

Labour's position may be incoherent but I was not asking about their

:04:39.:04:41.

position, I was asking about the Government's position. The man

:04:42.:04:43.

heading the Badila said he wants it ready by October next year so that

:04:44.:04:45.

it can go through the ratification process, people looking at this

:04:46.:04:47.

would think it is Mission: Impossible. It seems impossible to

:04:48.:04:52.

me to be done in that time. The fact that it is 27 countries, the whole

:04:53.:04:59.

of the European Parliament as well, there will be too many people

:05:00.:05:02.

throbbing spanners in the works and quite rightly. We have embarked on

:05:03.:05:08.

something that is truly terrible and disastrous, and the imagery we can

:05:09.:05:12.

have of those 27 countries celebrating together 60 years of the

:05:13.:05:17.

most extraordinary successful movement for peace, for shared

:05:18.:05:20.

European values, and others not there... We were not there at the

:05:21.:05:27.

start either, and we are not there now! And we have been bad partners

:05:28.:05:34.

while we were inside, but now that we are leaving... They did not look

:05:35.:05:38.

like it was a birthday party to me! I think it was, there was a sense of

:05:39.:05:43.

renewal, Europe exists as a place envied in the world for its values,

:05:44.:05:48.

for its peacefulness, that is why people flocked to its borders, that

:05:49.:05:52.

is why they come here. Can you look at the agenda that faces the UK

:05:53.:05:59.

Government and EU 27, is it not possible, in fact even likely, that

:06:00.:06:03.

as the process comes to an end they will have to agree on a number of

:06:04.:06:10.

areas of transitional arrangements? I think they will and they will have

:06:11.:06:15.

to agree that soon, I would not be surprised if sometime soon there is

:06:16.:06:18.

an understanding is not a formal decision that this is a process that

:06:19.:06:21.

will extend over something closer to buy or seven than two years. On

:06:22.:06:26.

Wednesday article 50 will be filed and there will be lots of excitement

:06:27.:06:29.

and hubbub but nothing concrete can happen for a while. Elections in

:06:30.:06:34.

France in May, elections in Germany which could really result in a

:06:35.:06:38.

change of Government... That is the big change, Mrs Merkel might not be

:06:39.:06:49.

there by October. And who foresaw that a few months ago? So you might

:06:50.:06:53.

be into 28 Dean before you are into the substantive discussions about

:06:54.:06:55.

how much market access or regulatory observance. I cannot see it being

:06:56.:06:57.

completed in two years. I could see, if negotiations are not too

:06:58.:07:01.

acrimonious, that transitional agreement taking place. Let's look

:07:02.:07:05.

at the timetable again. The council doesn't meet until the end of April,

:07:06.:07:09.

it meets in the middle of the French elections, the first round will have

:07:10.:07:12.

taken place, they will need a second round so not much can happen.

:07:13.:07:16.

President Hollande will be representing France, then the new

:07:17.:07:22.

French government, if it is Marine le Pen all bets are off, but even if

:07:23.:07:27.

it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a party, he will not have a majority,

:07:28.:07:31.

the French will take a long while to sort out themselves. Then it is

:07:32.:07:36.

summer, we are off to the Cote d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian

:07:37.:07:39.

elite, then we come back from that and the Germans are in an election,

:07:40.:07:45.

it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr

:07:46.:07:49.

Schultz, he may have to try to form a difficult green red coalition,

:07:50.:08:02.

that would take a while. Before you know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and

:08:03.:08:05.

no substance has taken place, yet we are then less than a year before

:08:06.:08:08.

this has to be decided. It is a big task and I'm sure Jana is right that

:08:09.:08:10.

there will be transitional arrangements and not everything will

:08:11.:08:13.

be concluded in that two year timetable, but in some respects what

:08:14.:08:17.

you have described helps those of us on the Eurosceptic site because it

:08:18.:08:21.

means they cannot really be a meaningful parliamentary vote on the

:08:22.:08:25.

terms of the deal because nothing is going to be agreed quickly enough

:08:26.:08:29.

for them to be able to go back and agree something else if Parliament

:08:30.:08:33.

rejects it, so when the Government eventually have something ready to

:08:34.:08:36.

bring before Parliament it will be a take it or leave it boat. How

:08:37.:08:42.

extraordinary that people who have campaigned. Indeed give us our

:08:43.:08:45.

country back and say, isn't it wonderful, we won't have a

:08:46.:08:48.

meaningful boat for our parliamentarians of the most

:08:49.:08:53.

important... We don't know what the negotiation, the package is, day by

:08:54.:08:57.

day we see more and more complicated areas nobody ever thought about,

:08:58.:09:00.

nobody mentioned during the campaign, all of which has to be

:09:01.:09:07.

resolved and the European Council and the negotiators say nothing is

:09:08.:09:11.

agreed until everything is agreed. You lead us into a catastrophe.

:09:12.:09:16.

There will be plenty of opportunity for Parliament to have its say

:09:17.:09:20.

following the introduction of the Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if

:09:21.:09:24.

there will be no Parliamentary time devoted. The final package is what

:09:25.:09:29.

counts. We have two years to blog about this!

:09:30.:09:34.

There was a big Proview -- pro-EU march yesterday... I was there!

:09:35.:09:44.

Polly Toynbee was there, down to Parliament Square, lots of people

:09:45.:09:48.

there marching in favour of the European Union. We can see the EU

:09:49.:09:52.

flags there on flags, lots of national flags as well, the British

:09:53.:09:59.

one. Polly, is it the aim of people like you still to stop Brexit, or to

:10:00.:10:07.

soften Brexit? I think the aim is for the best you can possibly do to

:10:08.:10:13.

limit the damage. Of course, if it happens that once people have had a

:10:14.:10:16.

chance to see how much they were lied to during the campaign and how

:10:17.:10:20.

dreadful the deal is likely to be, if it happens that enough people in

:10:21.:10:24.

the population have changed their minds, then maybe... There is no

:10:25.:10:30.

sign up yet. But we have not even begun, people have not begun to

:10:31.:10:33.

confront what it is going to mean. Wait and see. I think it is just

:10:34.:10:38.

being as close as we can. Is that credible, do you think, to stop it

:10:39.:10:43.

or to ameliorate it in terms of the Remainers? I think it is far more

:10:44.:10:47.

credible to try and stop it but even then the scope is limited. It is

:10:48.:10:52.

fairly apparent Theresa May's interpretation of the referendum is

:10:53.:10:53.

the country wants an end to free movement, there is probably no way

:10:54.:11:15.

of doing that inside the single market. She also wants external

:11:16.:11:17.

trade deals, no way of doing that outside the customs unit, said the

:11:18.:11:20.

only night you can depend if you are pro-European is, let's not leave

:11:21.:11:22.

without any trade pact, at least let's meet Canada and have a

:11:23.:11:24.

formalised trade agreement. The idea of ace -- of a very soft exit is

:11:25.:11:27.

gone now because the public really did want an end to free movement and

:11:28.:11:30.

the Government really does want external trade deals. It depends

:11:31.:11:32.

what changes in Europe. I think the momentum behind the Remoaning

:11:33.:11:40.

movement will move away. One of the banners I saw being held up

:11:41.:11:45.

yesterday by a young boy on the news was, don't put my daddy on a boat.

:11:46.:11:48.

It gets a lot of its moral force from the uncertainty surrounding the

:11:49.:11:53.

fate of EU nationals here and our resident in the remainder of the EU

:11:54.:11:58.

and I think David Lidington is right that it will be concluded quite

:11:59.:12:01.

quickly once negotiations start and that will take a lot of the heat and

:12:02.:12:06.

momentum out of the remaining movement. Why didn't Theresa May

:12:07.:12:10.

allow that amendment that said, we will do that, as an act of

:12:11.:12:15.

generosity, we will say, of course those European citizens here are

:12:16.:12:19.

welcome to stay? It would have been such a good opening move in the

:12:20.:12:23.

negotiations, instead of which she blocked it. It does not augur well.

:12:24.:12:29.

I have interviewed many Tories about this and put that point to them but

:12:30.:12:32.

they often say the Prime minister's job is to look after UK citizen in

:12:33.:12:40.

the EU... Bargaining chips, I think you have to be generous and you have

:12:41.:12:45.

to wish you people in Spain and everywhere else where there are

:12:46.:12:47.

British citizens would have responded. The British Government

:12:48.:12:51.

did try and raise that with their EU counterparts and were told, we

:12:52.:12:54.

cannot begin to talk about that until article 50 has been triggered.

:12:55.:12:58.

Next week we will be able to talk about it. How generous it would have

:12:59.:13:02.

been, we would have started on a better note. Didn't happen, we will

:13:03.:13:07.

see what happens next with EU citizens. That is it for today, the

:13:08.:13:11.

Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at midday and every day next week on

:13:12.:13:13.

BBC Two as always. And there's also a Question Time

:13:14.:13:16.

special live tomorrow night from Birmingham -

:13:17.:13:18.

with guests including the Brexit Secretary David Davis,

:13:19.:13:20.

Labour's Keir Starmer, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

:13:21.:13:22.

and the SNP's Alex Salmond - I'll be back next week

:13:23.:13:24.

at 11am here on BBC One. Until then, remember -

:13:25.:13:30.

if it's Sunday, it's

:13:31.:13:34.

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