Browse content similar to 26/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone, | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
but do the security services have the resources and | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons. | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
done" - we'll speak to him and the party's | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
Has George Osborne dug himself out of a hole? | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
Tories in Tatton say George Osborne's convinced them | :01:11. | :01:12. | |
of course he can edit a London paper, and serve them in Cheshire. | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :01:18. | :01:29. | |
panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament, | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 - | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital. | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
His target was the very heart of our democracy, | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers. | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity | :02:02. | :02:02. | |
at the time, the outcome could have been even worse. | :02:03. | :02:11. | |
Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we | :02:12. | :02:19. | |
be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and | :02:32. | :02:33. | |
national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack, | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions. | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal, | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
imagine the emergency services and local people, international | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
that is attacking. OK, thank you for that. | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
So, four days after the attack, what more do we know | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation. | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
According to a police timeline, that's how long it took | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster | :05:02. | :05:03. | |
to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter... | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster. | :05:15. | :05:25. | |
The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying: | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
"We would like to express our gratitude to the people | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
who were with Keith in his last moments and who were | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
There was nothing more you could have done, | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone." | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him. | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
There should be no place for terrorists to hide. | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp, | :06:01. | :06:02. | |
and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
place for terrorists to communicate with each other. | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing, | :06:13. | :06:21. | |
legally, through warrantry, but in this situation | :06:22. | :06:23. | |
we need to make sure that our intelligence services | :06:24. | :06:25. | |
have the ability to get into situations like encrypted | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out | :06:32. | :06:33. | |
But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest. | :06:38. | :06:45. | |
We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol, | :06:46. | :06:47. | |
the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright. | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I | :06:54. | :07:01. | |
can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation, | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80 | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year, | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well. | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we? | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels, | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
least the first indications from what police are saying in London, | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators, | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board, | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is | :11:12. | :11:19. | |
certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree | :11:25. | :11:32. | |
certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of | :11:45. | :11:46. | |
communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much. | :11:53. | :11:53. | |
Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of | :11:58. | :12:04. | |
Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
security director, and just as security matters in parliament are | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate, | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
security authorities and in particular for the police and direct | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
position to comment on the details of the operation but my | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
understanding is that the number of people available is what the police | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody | :15:02. | :15:03. | |
involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time. | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it. | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
changes need to be made in light of that. | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence | :15:59. | :16:07. | |
Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this | :16:36. | :16:44. | |
simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader | :16:50. | :16:57. | |
of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was | :17:50. | :17:56. | |
a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed | :18:01. | :18:13. | |
guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing. | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational | :19:54. | :20:01. | |
mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that? | :20:25. | :20:31. | |
Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is | :20:59. | :21:00. | |
possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The | :21:01. | :21:17. | |
question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel? | :21:21. | :21:22. | |
Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a | :21:53. | :22:00. | |
substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50 | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The | :22:49. | :22:59. | |
Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European | :24:19. | :24:29. | |
regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision. | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
David Lidington, thank you for being with us. | :25:23. | :25:23. | |
So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell. | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party | :25:27. | :25:28. | |
almost three years ago, but yesterday announced | :25:29. | :25:29. | |
that he was quitting to sit as an independent. | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying, | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster". | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign. | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :25:57. | :25:58. | |
accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances | :25:59. | :26:00. | |
of being awarded a knighthood, writing that, | :26:01. | :26:02. | |
Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday, | :26:03. | :26:10. | |
Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU. | :26:11. | :26:12. | |
Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
decided that I will be leaving Ukip." | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014 | :26:19. | :26:20. | |
he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election. | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election. | :26:27. | :26:35. | |
We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your | :26:42. | :26:51. | |
only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
expected to be pushed out your national executive committee | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did | :28:00. | :28:07. | |
jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear | :28:12. | :28:19. | |
is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party, | :28:35. | :28:42. | |
doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to | :28:43. | :28:58. | |
rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have | :29:53. | :29:59. | |
been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No, | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past, | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be | :30:23. | :30:32. | |
interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the | :31:09. | :31:25. | |
problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate | :31:26. | :31:27. | |
communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would | :31:28. | :31:29. | |
extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But, | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people | :32:02. | :32:03. | |
in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon. | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio. | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here, | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants | :32:57. | :33:04. | |
to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the | :33:25. | :33:26. | |
opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back, | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you | :33:42. | :33:49. | |
are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won, | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge. | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas | :34:52. | :34:58. | |
I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They | :35:22. | :35:28. | |
freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam, | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen, | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past. | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself | :37:17. | :37:25. | |
with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into | :38:14. | :38:21. | |
2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
see. Very well! Thank you both very much. | :38:35. | :38:48. | |
The council accused of peddling propaganda by spending a quarter | :38:49. | :38:57. | |
But here to tell nothing but the whole truth in the studio | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
this week are two of our most experienced politicians. | :39:05. | :39:06. | |
Nigel Evans is the Conservative MP for Ribble Valley, | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
and Graham Stringer the Labour MP for Blackley and Broughton. | :39:09. | :39:23. | |
And died were talking about the attack on Westminster. | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
was removed from an address in West Didsbury on Friday | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
as the number of arrests across the country in relation | :39:32. | :39:33. | |
to the attack by Khalid Masood reached 11. | :39:34. | :39:42. | |
Graham, this story, very quickly moved to bowl on Westminster to our | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
doorstep in the north-west. As a mentor to MP, are you worried this | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
is something we will see more of? We her seeing less of it. If you | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
remember, I think it must be about... 13 or 14 years ago, there | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
was a police constable murdered in my constituency by extremists in the | :40:03. | :40:11. | |
community and I think the police worry, the special Branch worry from | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
time to time when a brief to me, but they seem to have got on top of it. | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
So, yes, obviously, there are problems. There are some people who | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
take extreme views and it's important that we both educate | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
communicate and inform those people. But you feel as a country we are | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
more in control then we worked ten years ago? You asked me about | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
Manchester which I know in detail. I do think, to use an old-fashioned | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
word, there is more harmony it is not solved, it will be a long | :40:40. | :40:51. | |
time before it is solved. It is being affected by major | :40:52. | :40:53. | |
international events, but I think things are better than they were 13 | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
or 14 years ago. Bon Nuttal said that Muslim communities must do far | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
remit the Reed midst. Is that an remit the Reed midst. Is that an | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
uncomfortable truth or is that just an inflammatory and dangerous | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
commentary? I think it's inflammatory, to be honest. I think | :41:11. | :41:18. | |
the day after the terrorist attack, when MPs from all political | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
persuasions spoke about what was behind this and, indeed, it was | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
emphasised by one Labour MP that this has nothing to do with Islam. | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
If this person followed that religion, if he was a proper Muslim, | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
he would not have murdered because Islam is a religion of peace and | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
that is exactly what it is. And yet the last two terror attacks in this | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
country whereby Islamic fundamentalists. Yes, this is | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
home-grown murdering terrorists which is beyond the wit of any of us | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
in this room to work out why somebody is able to become | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
radicalised and then mowed down innocent people walking along | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
Westminster Bridge, including children and old age pensioners and | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
then to come in and start a police officer. None of us can get our | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
heads around it but I will pay tribute to the emergency services | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
but quite frankly, he was shot dead very quickly and those other | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
emergency services. The police team were there in a matter of minutes. | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
Very, very quickly. They are trying to keep an eye on extremist | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
round-the-clock Buddhism is virtually impossible. You see the | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
situation has improved in Manchester but is it an inevitable part of | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
modern life? I think when MPs talk privately, we have always known that | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
we are a prime target for extremists. It's happened, it is | :42:40. | :42:47. | |
bad, people lost their lives and that is appalling and a tragedy. It | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
the security improvements that have the security improvements that have | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
been made over the last ten years... When I first became an MP, you could | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
walk straight in! Part of the charm of Westminster is once you are in, | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
it feels very free. And we need to get that balance right. The police | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
are on the very front-line and they are part of not just protecting us | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
but also welcoming visitors who come in their thousands. Absolutely a | :43:14. | :43:13. | |
level that change. Next - he's probably our most high | :43:14. | :43:15. | |
profile MP and it looks like he's here for at least | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
a little longer. George Osborne started Friday | :43:19. | :43:20. | |
planting trees in his Tatton constituency before the local party | :43:21. | :43:22. | |
gave him their backing That's despite his new job, | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
starting in May, as editor But they did say they'd | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
look at the situation And Councillor Rod Menlove | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
was at the meeting and joins Thank you for joining us on a Sunday | :43:36. | :43:49. | |
morning. George Osborne has told us he was grateful to receive | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
overwhelming support from the party faithful on Friday night. Is that | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
the case? Was overwhelming? It was more than overwhelming. I imagine it | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
was actually unanimous. There were close to 100 people there and these | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
are quite high profile people, these are intelligent people. They asked | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
intelligent questions and gave George several support at the end of | :44:14. | :44:14. | |
the meeting. Another Conservative I the meeting. Another Conservative I | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
spoke to who was there said there was an agreement that his | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
performance will be reviewed, as always, in your's time that he is | :44:23. | :44:24. | |
pleased that that is there because it said the constituency could be | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
reduced. He must prove what he said that he can be a good constituency | :44:32. | :44:38. | |
MP. To my recollection, it wasn't that formal. I mean, clearly, George | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
every year when he comes to the AGM gives us a rundown of what he has | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
been doing and let us not forget he was six years as Chancellor of the | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
Exchequer, 820 47 job if ever there was one. He has a number of jobs | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
that frankly, the time devoted to those will be less than it was at | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I see no problem. I am on the senior | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
management team within the organisation. We will understand | :45:06. | :45:06. | |
what is happening throughout the year and George will come to the | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
AGM... I think he has missed one in the last 16 years because he was | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
called to something in America. So he will be there. Finally, do you | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
see the ethical distinction between being chats of the exchequer, | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
serving the public, and working towards a profit making newspaper? | :45:24. | :45:30. | |
None whatsoever. What is the next question? Fair enough! Thank you. No | :45:31. | :45:37. | |
ethical problem with that whatsoever, would you agree? I think | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
there is a massive political problem. Make me be clear. I think | :45:41. | :45:49. | |
that MPs can have a second jobs, people keep their businesses going, | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
that is understandable. George is taking the Mickey really and there | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
is a direct political contract. As editor of the London standards, he | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
has said he wants to build a voice for London people. He is | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
representing a northern seat. There will be direct conflict over the | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
next four or five years in wearer Crosswell to get the investment or | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
HS2 is completed. Which side will be on? A London newspaper or the North? | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
I thought he was going to say he was going to edit the Manchester evening | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
News as well! He could be head of the Forestry Commission, why not? | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
There is a contract between an MP and his constituency represented by | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
the Association. They seen to be very happy. I think it is probably | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
for George. People want to do a decent job as a member of | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
Parliament. He was once that to suffer. It's a suck it and see if he | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
is able to have these other commitments and maintain his | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
service, public service to his constituency, then he will carry on. | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
But Nigel is right, it is down to party members if they want to be in | :46:57. | :46:59. | |
the process of deselection and they are perfectly happy, that's how it | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
works. It is down to his party colleagues who are putting him up | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
and the electorate has a pretty good history of getting rid of MPs. | :47:10. | :47:16. | |
That's true! Maybe Nigel can't say, but I think the boundary | :47:17. | :47:24. | |
reorganisations, ie will be shouting for the north-west. He wants a seat | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
in London and he wants to get out of Cheshire. I was looking at | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
Parliamentary business this week. There are debates on international | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
affairs, women's welfare, health and social care which will happen in the | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
morning this week in the chamber and unless Mr Hart. He is going to miss | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
them and his priority will be a newspaper. Is that right, is that | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
ethically correct? The outlaws of the house have changed. On a | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday there are morning sittings now which | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
never used to happen in the old days when it was half past two. But | :47:55. | :47:56. | |
George himself will make that decision. He is a decent bloke and | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
if he thinks that somehow or other at the outside interests are | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
conflicting with his response but to his constituency, he will make that | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
decision. But everyone will be thinking, what if every MP took a | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
job where they were busy in the morning? Our democracy would suffer. | :48:16. | :48:24. | |
As long as they are having the voice of their constituency, there is a | :48:25. | :48:26. | |
big worry. These are huge figures. He will earn more than ?1 million a | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
year with what he is doing and some... One of those jobs in | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
particular... Does that matter? Is an absolute terms or six jobs | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
mattering, but decisions he could've taken as Chancellor, can we be at | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
least certain that anybody, whether the energy secretary or the | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
Chancellor, when they make those decisions, haven't got there I am | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
getting a job afterwards? That is where the conflict and the influence | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
comes in. There is another thing that in all the debates you have | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
mentioned, when George was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
would not have been in the chamber for those debates either because he | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
was busy running the economy. He was running the economy for the public. | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
MPs look at the parliamentary date and do what they can. If they are | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
ministers, they are sometimes dragged away to other things. We | :49:17. | :49:17. | |
have to leave it there. So no imminent byelection in Tatton, | :49:18. | :49:19. | |
but plenty more elections On the 4th of May, | :49:20. | :49:21. | |
Greater Manchester and the Liverpool City Region - | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
that's Merseyside plus Halton - On the same day, | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
Lancashire and Cumbria And, although the | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
date's not yet been confirmed, the by-election for | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
Manchester Gorton, following the death of Labour | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
MP Sir Gerald Kaufman, Well, this week, the former Labour | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
and Respect Party MP George Galloway And Labour selected its candidate, | :49:41. | :49:47. | |
the current MEP Afzal Khan, We asked our reporter | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
Claire Hamilton to head to Gorton soon the people of Gorton will get | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
to choose their next. Farzana Ajazz has sold fruit | :49:57. | :50:07. | |
and veg at Longsight Market She says her customers | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
are seeing food prices rise and their pay packets squeezed | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
and that will influence their vote. It's very hard to explain to | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
customers, you know, Obviously, coming out | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
of Europe has not helped. I've always found that | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
if you're a Labour Party supporter, at the end of the day, | :50:33. | :50:34. | |
they do look after people in our class, meaning | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
the middle-class, lower class. They look after people | :50:38. | :50:39. | |
who have less money. The political landscape | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
has changed a lot since Gerald Kaufman was elected | :50:45. | :50:46. | |
MP for Gorton in 1983. With Brexit and Jeremy | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
Corbyn in the mix, the hopeful recipient of | :50:51. | :50:52. | |
this card won't be taking | :50:53. | :50:54. | |
anything for granted. God forgive me because | :50:55. | :50:56. | |
I've never ever been a Tory. I've always voted Labour, | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
like you say, but now, because it's so rubbish, | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
I'm supporting Theresa May. I think amongst the | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
Asian community and, like, my parents, there's always | :51:09. | :51:10. | |
been a bias towards Labour, I think they've always gone | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
with Labour sink due to the benefits and other things | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
that the Labour have always Traditionally, | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
we've been Labour, but... George Galloway says he'll stand | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
as an independent in Gorton. The Liberal Democrats reckon they'll | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
benefit if he splits the Labour vote and the Greens, who came | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
second here in 2015, Can Labour's 24,000 | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
majority be dented? We sought after the | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
Iraq war in 2005, you know, Gerald Kaufman had to fight really | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
hard to hold off a challenge from the Liberal Democrats | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
in this constituency so even though you think of it as safe Labour | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
territory, all bets are off right now and it is going to be | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
a really bitter fight, I think. The date for the Gorton | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
by-election hasn't been set. There's a chance it | :52:00. | :52:02. | |
will be two elections for the price of one | :52:03. | :52:04. | |
on the 4th of May when Greater Manchester | :52:05. | :52:06. | |
elects its first ever metro mayor. And here's the list of candidates | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
who've declared they're standing so far, though obviously | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
more could join them. And we expect to get a date for that | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
election confirmed this week. Graham, Andrew Russell predicted | :52:18. | :52:30. | |
this will be a bitter fight. I went to George Galloway's want on | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
Wednesday. It will certainly be lively. All by-elections are likely. | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
I'm grateful that I never was a by-election candidate. I think it | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
will be wisely. I don't welcome George Galloway's involvement in it. | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
in by-elections of upping the in by-elections of upping the | :52:50. | :52:57. | |
temperature. I don't welcome that. Well, people do like it. There was a | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
reasonably good turn out there. He talked about Israel and the West | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
Bank and Kashmir, these issues will appeal to Asian voters important. | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
We've seen it damaged with the party in the past in Tower Hamlets. We | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
have a candidate who has been Lord Mayor, Afzal Khan has been Lord | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
Mayor of Manchester. He is respected in the Muslim community, the white | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
community. He has spent all his political career trying to unite you | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
and Galloway has spent all his time trying to divide. It could divide | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
the labour vote. We have the Liberal Democrat part the candidates say her | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
odds of winning have been slashed because Galloway entered the fray. | :53:42. | :53:48. | |
Are you worried that the student population, the remaining ticket | :53:49. | :53:50. | |
from the Liberal Democrats, could also split the vote? I think in any | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
by-election, the more candidates, the more split votes. When Jackie is | :53:55. | :54:01. | |
right from the Liberal Democrats, there is substantial support for the | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
Labour Party both from the white community and those people from | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
Bangladesh and Pakistan who have been here for generations. I don't | :54:09. | :54:16. | |
23,000 majority? But I think Labour 23,000 majority? But I think Labour | :54:17. | :54:23. | |
can look for words to Afzal Khan as the MP. You'll be lucky to get | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
25,000 voting overall! Always low turnouts. You must be upset to hear | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
that women say that Theresa May has her fault that time. People do | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
sometimes go with the national leader in by-elections. You never | :54:39. | :54:45. | |
know! Unlike Graham, I have the scars of two by-elections. The 13th | :54:46. | :54:52. | |
safest seat, and I lost it! You can never tell with by-elections. We | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
also don't know who the Conservative candidate is. Six weeks to go and | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
they are still not declared. Do we read into that the Conservatives | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
don't care about this? No, no, no! Not at all! By-elections are strange | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
animals and I think Graham is right not to try and predict the outcome | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
of that except that I don't think... But there is no presence there. We | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
delivered a candidate is. The local association will discuss with the | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
candidate. It will be announced candidate. It will be announced | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
pretty quickly and we will fight a very vigorous campaign. I have no | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
doubt at all. But because by-elections are strange animals and | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
we are more interested in the county elections and the Tories getting | :55:36. | :55:37. | |
control back again of Lancashire, that's what I want to see. Graham, | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
are you worried that the Labour Party are trailing in the polls | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
nationally and have an impact on these local elections, the Keogan | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
affects? Of course I am worried. We are 12 or 15 points behind. Samples | :55:54. | :56:01. | |
go up to 19. And somewhere down to ten, but in the middle. Local | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
elections reflect national opinion polls in Manchester, in the | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
north-west, Labour has done better than in national polls. You cannot | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
totally write them out, but we will try. Made a fourth will be a busy | :56:14. | :56:15. | |
day for all of us. We are briefly day for all of us. We are briefly | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
going to head to the world now where two people have been series the | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
injured and 32 others hurt after buildings collapsed in a suspected | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
gas explosion. Window should in houses were splashed in the blast. | :56:29. | :56:35. | |
Another houses were evacuated. More than 100 people were moved overnight | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
into a nearby church. The local MP Alison McGovern has been with them | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
and joins us now. Allison, thank you for joining us. I know you have been | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
extremely busy through the night. What have you been doing, who have | :56:47. | :56:53. | |
you been speaking to? Well, I live about ten minutes' walk from where | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
this happened so heard it, like everyone else in the Wirral area. | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
People from far away seem to have heard the blast, it was so big. They | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
then came up here last night. Mike constituency office is just along | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
the road from where the blast happens so people have just been | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
trying to take care of those who were evacuated and obviously, the | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
emergency services have been doing a brilliant job in making the area | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
safe and looking after those who were hurt and injured. We also had a | :57:20. | :57:25. | |
brilliant local church open their doors to everybody last night to | :57:26. | :57:27. | |
make sure they were OK and could have access to help. This is a | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
devastating event for us in Wirral but I know this community very, very | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
well and they will pull together and put this right. You know, it was | :57:37. | :57:43. | |
late on at night and this is a very busy area, so if this has happened | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
earlier in the day, the consequences could have been even more | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
significant. But as I say, I know this community very well and they | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
will look after each other. A relief because it could have been so much | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
worse, you're actually right. We don't love exactly what caused it? | :57:59. | :58:05. | |
No, we do not know yet. The police and Fire Service are saying early | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
indications seem to point towards a gas explosion but they are on site | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
is now doing their job to find out the cause and to take care of those | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
people who were affected by this. Businesses in new very here will be | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
significantly affected by this, but as I say, this is a strong community | :58:25. | :58:27. | |
that will look after each other. Then he very much for joining us. I | :58:28. | :58:29. | |
hope you get some rest. The North West has lost 12 local | :58:30. | :58:30. | |
papers in the last two years, including the St Helens Recorder, | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
the Crosby Herald But it's not market forces | :58:34. | :58:35. | |
putting pressure it's the Conservative opposition | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
accusing the Labour council of peddling propaganda | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
through its monthly title, # Read all about it, | :58:43. | :58:44. | |
read all about it It looks like a local | :58:45. | :58:56. | |
paper, but it's produced by the local council at a cost, | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
proponents claim, Opposition Tory councillors | :59:03. | :59:04. | |
aren't impressed. It's a complete waste | :59:05. | :59:18. | |
of public money. This has the potential | :59:19. | :59:20. | |
of detracting some of the advertisements away | :59:21. | :59:22. | |
from our free press. This isn't just | :59:23. | :59:24. | |
a Labour thing, though. Conservative councils | :59:25. | :59:26. | |
have had these type of publications so different | :59:27. | :59:27. | |
councils must see a need. Well, I don't think that that | :59:28. | :59:29. | |
need has been proven Wirral already has two | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
free local papers. Government rules state that any | :59:33. | :59:34. | |
council papers can only be published quarterly but this one | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
here has been printed every month. Labour says | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
it's been paid for by saving on advertising costs | :59:42. | :59:43. | |
elsewhere. We're actually spending less | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
and being able to put money And is it propaganda as opposed | :59:47. | :59:48. | |
to a free press which is It's a great press | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
and they hold us to account This is about getting information | :59:54. | :59:59. | |
to residents that they really need. Competition from council run papers | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
is just one challenge Time to tackle those | :00:09. | :00:10. | |
in power is limited. It really is almost impossible, | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
I think, for local paper journalists to really get under the skin | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
of their local councils and increasingly they're relying | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
on council press releases and often they just go into those | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
newspapers unamended. One new initiative designed | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
to help that is the BBC funding 150 new local democracy | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
reporters to cover council meetings and public bodies for | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
all the local media. You and me, the licence payer, | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
I kind of making up for a failure But I think it's got | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
to be a positive. As sales of papers decline, | :00:46. | :00:54. | |
can websites fill the gap? Angie runs an online only | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
operation in Liverpool. If it's a good story, | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
you need good old-fashioned reporting to enable it to be told | :00:59. | :01:00. | |
whether that's a newspaper, The message and the story will out, | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
whatever your medium. Do you feel there is | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
an appetite online for complicated local politics | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
stories, for example? The appetite may be | :01:13. | :01:13. | |
there, but is the money? Or will the likes of | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
the Wirral View further muddy the waters for | :01:20. | :01:21. | |
the world of local media? Many thanks to | :01:22. | :01:30. | |
Graham Stringer and Nigel Evans. Graham Evans and Lisa Nandy | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
join us next week. Now I'll hand you back | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
to Andrew Neil in London. can see you nodding in agreement but | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
we don't have any more time! Thank you both for coming in, Andrew, back | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
to you. So yesterday the European Union | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
celebrated its 60th birthday at a party in Rome, the city | :01:52. | :02:08. | |
where the founding document Leaders of 27 EU countries | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
were there to mark the occasion - overshadowing it, though, | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
the continued terrorist threat, And on Wednesday Theresa May, | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
who wasn't in Rome yesterday, will trigger Article 50, | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
formally starting The President of the European | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
Council, Donald Tusk, made an appeal for unity | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
at the gathering. Today in Rome, we are renewing | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
the unique alliance of free nations that was initiated 60 years ago | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
by our great predecessors. At that time, they did not | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
discuss multiple speeds, they did not devise exits, | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
but despite all the tragic circumstances of the recent history | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
they placed all their faith Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that | :02:52. | :03:11. | |
has the Council of ministers, and on that council where every member of | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
the EU sits he is an important figure in what is now about to | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
happen. We have got to negotiate our divorce terms, we've got to agree a | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
new free trade deal, new crime-fighting arrangements, we've | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
got to repatriate 50 international trade agreements, and all of that | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
has to be ratified within two years, by 27 other countries. Can that | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
really happen?! I don't think it is inconceivable because it is in the | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
interests of those 27 EU member states to try and negotiate a deal | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
that we can all live with, because that would be preferable to Britain | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
crashing out within two years. But I think this is why Labour's position | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
is becoming increasingly incoherent. Keir Starmer has briefed today that | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
he will be making a speech tomorrow setting out six conditions which he | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
wants the deal to meet, otherwise Labour won't vote for it, but if | :04:06. | :04:07. | |
Labour doesn't vote for it that doesn't mean we will be able to | :04:08. | :04:28. | |
negotiate an extension, that would be incredibly difficult and require | :04:29. | :04:30. | |
the consent of each of the 27 member states, so if Labour votes against | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
it we will just crash out, it is effectively Labour saying no deal is | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
better than a poor deal, which is not supposed to be their position. | :04:37. | :04:38. | |
Labour's position may be incoherent but I was not asking about their | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
position, I was asking about the Government's position. The man | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
heading the Badila said he wants it ready by October next year so that | :04:44. | :04:45. | |
it can go through the ratification process, people looking at this | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
would think it is Mission: Impossible. It seems impossible to | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
me to be done in that time. The fact that it is 27 countries, the whole | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
of the European Parliament as well, there will be too many people | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
throbbing spanners in the works and quite rightly. We have embarked on | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
something that is truly terrible and disastrous, and the imagery we can | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
have of those 27 countries celebrating together 60 years of the | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
most extraordinary successful movement for peace, for shared | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
European values, and others not there... We were not there at the | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
start either, and we are not there now! And we have been bad partners | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
while we were inside, but now that we are leaving... They did not look | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
like it was a birthday party to me! I think it was, there was a sense of | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
renewal, Europe exists as a place envied in the world for its values, | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
for its peacefulness, that is why people flocked to its borders, that | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
is why they come here. Can you look at the agenda that faces the UK | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
Government and EU 27, is it not possible, in fact even likely, that | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
as the process comes to an end they will have to agree on a number of | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
areas of transitional arrangements? I think they will and they will have | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
to agree that soon, I would not be surprised if sometime soon there is | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
an understanding is not a formal decision that this is a process that | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
will extend over something closer to buy or seven than two years. On | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
Wednesday article 50 will be filed and there will be lots of excitement | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
and hubbub but nothing concrete can happen for a while. Elections in | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
France in May, elections in Germany which could really result in a | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
change of Government... That is the big change, Mrs Merkel might not be | :06:39. | :06:49. | |
there by October. And who foresaw that a few months ago? So you might | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
be into 28 Dean before you are into the substantive discussions about | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
how much market access or regulatory observance. I cannot see it being | :06:56. | :06:57. | |
completed in two years. I could see, if negotiations are not too | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
acrimonious, that transitional agreement taking place. Let's look | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
at the timetable again. The council doesn't meet until the end of April, | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
it meets in the middle of the French elections, the first round will have | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
taken place, they will need a second round so not much can happen. | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
President Hollande will be representing France, then the new | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
French government, if it is Marine le Pen all bets are off, but even if | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a party, he will not have a majority, | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
the French will take a long while to sort out themselves. Then it is | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
summer, we are off to the Cote d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
elite, then we come back from that and the Germans are in an election, | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
Schultz, he may have to try to form a difficult green red coalition, | :07:50. | :08:02. | |
that would take a while. Before you know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
no substance has taken place, yet we are then less than a year before | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
this has to be decided. It is a big task and I'm sure Jana is right that | :08:09. | :08:10. | |
there will be transitional arrangements and not everything will | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
be concluded in that two year timetable, but in some respects what | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
you have described helps those of us on the Eurosceptic site because it | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
means they cannot really be a meaningful parliamentary vote on the | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
terms of the deal because nothing is going to be agreed quickly enough | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
for them to be able to go back and agree something else if Parliament | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
rejects it, so when the Government eventually have something ready to | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
bring before Parliament it will be a take it or leave it boat. How | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
extraordinary that people who have campaigned. Indeed give us our | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
country back and say, isn't it wonderful, we won't have a | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
meaningful boat for our parliamentarians of the most | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
important... We don't know what the negotiation, the package is, day by | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
day we see more and more complicated areas nobody ever thought about, | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
nobody mentioned during the campaign, all of which has to be | :09:01. | :09:07. | |
resolved and the European Council and the negotiators say nothing is | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
agreed until everything is agreed. You lead us into a catastrophe. | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
There will be plenty of opportunity for Parliament to have its say | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
following the introduction of the Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
there will be no Parliamentary time devoted. The final package is what | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
counts. We have two years to blog about this! | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
There was a big Proview -- pro-EU march yesterday... I was there! | :09:35. | :09:44. | |
Polly Toynbee was there, down to Parliament Square, lots of people | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
there marching in favour of the European Union. We can see the EU | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
flags there on flags, lots of national flags as well, the British | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
one. Polly, is it the aim of people like you still to stop Brexit, or to | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
soften Brexit? I think the aim is for the best you can possibly do to | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
limit the damage. Of course, if it happens that once people have had a | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
chance to see how much they were lied to during the campaign and how | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
dreadful the deal is likely to be, if it happens that enough people in | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
the population have changed their minds, then maybe... There is no | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
sign up yet. But we have not even begun, people have not begun to | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
confront what it is going to mean. Wait and see. I think it is just | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
being as close as we can. Is that credible, do you think, to stop it | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
or to ameliorate it in terms of the Remainers? I think it is far more | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
credible to try and stop it but even then the scope is limited. It is | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
fairly apparent Theresa May's interpretation of the referendum is | :10:53. | :10:53. | |
the country wants an end to free movement, there is probably no way | :10:54. | :11:15. | |
of doing that inside the single market. She also wants external | :11:16. | :11:17. | |
trade deals, no way of doing that outside the customs unit, said the | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
only night you can depend if you are pro-European is, let's not leave | :11:21. | :11:22. | |
without any trade pact, at least let's meet Canada and have a | :11:23. | :11:24. | |
formalised trade agreement. The idea of ace -- of a very soft exit is | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
gone now because the public really did want an end to free movement and | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
the Government really does want external trade deals. It depends | :11:31. | :11:32. | |
what changes in Europe. I think the momentum behind the Remoaning | :11:33. | :11:40. | |
movement will move away. One of the banners I saw being held up | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
yesterday by a young boy on the news was, don't put my daddy on a boat. | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
It gets a lot of its moral force from the uncertainty surrounding the | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
fate of EU nationals here and our resident in the remainder of the EU | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
and I think David Lidington is right that it will be concluded quite | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
quickly once negotiations start and that will take a lot of the heat and | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
momentum out of the remaining movement. Why didn't Theresa May | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
allow that amendment that said, we will do that, as an act of | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
generosity, we will say, of course those European citizens here are | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
welcome to stay? It would have been such a good opening move in the | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
negotiations, instead of which she blocked it. It does not augur well. | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
I have interviewed many Tories about this and put that point to them but | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
they often say the Prime minister's job is to look after UK citizen in | :12:33. | :12:40. | |
the EU... Bargaining chips, I think you have to be generous and you have | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
to wish you people in Spain and everywhere else where there are | :12:46. | :12:47. | |
British citizens would have responded. The British Government | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
did try and raise that with their EU counterparts and were told, we | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
cannot begin to talk about that until article 50 has been triggered. | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
Next week we will be able to talk about it. How generous it would have | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
been, we would have started on a better note. Didn't happen, we will | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
see what happens next with EU citizens. That is it for today, the | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at midday and every day next week on | :13:12. | :13:13. | |
BBC Two as always. And there's also a Question Time | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
special live tomorrow night from Birmingham - | :13:17. | :13:18. | |
with guests including the Brexit Secretary David Davis, | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
Labour's Keir Starmer, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
and the SNP's Alex Salmond - I'll be back next week | :13:23. | :13:24. | |
at 11am here on BBC One. Until then, remember - | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
if it's Sunday, it's | :13:31. | :13:34. |