14/05/2017 Sunday Politics North West

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Andrew Neil is joined by shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey, housing minister Brandon Lewis and American political pollster Frank Luntz.

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


Theresa May unveils plans to build many more affordable homes


in England, but with no price tag, timetable or building targets -


Labour takes aim at the City with what it calls a Robin Hood Tax


to fund public services, but will traders just


Don't look at the polls - Jeremy Corbyn, at least,


insists he can win this election - so which way will


We'll hear from a focus group in Leeds.


Has the bubble burst or can Ukip rise again?


We'll assess the post-Brexit battle for votes in Blackpool.


and here, what the parties are saying about tackling the air


pollution problem in London. And with me, our own scientifically


selected focus group of political pundits -


they're not so much undecided as clueless -


Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott They'll be tweeting


throughout the programme. So, we've got two new


policies this morning. Labour say they will introduce


a financial transaction tax if they win the general election


and what they're calling "the biggest crackdown on tax


avoidance in the country's history". The Conservatives say they'll work


with local authorities in England to build council houses


with the right to buy. Theresa May says the policy


"will help thousands of people get on the first rung


of the housing ladder". Steve, what do you make of them? I


have been conditioned after doing tax and spend debates in


pre-election periods for many decades to treat policy is not as


literal but as arguments. In other words if you look back to 2015 the


Tory plan to wipe out the deficit was never going to happen and yet it


framed and large event. In that sense the Robin Hood tax is a


sensible move for Labour to make at this point because it is part of a


narrative of reconfiguring taxation to be fair. Treating it as an


argument rather than something that would happen in day one of Labour


government is sensible. In terms of building houses Theresa May said


right from the beginning when she was in Number Ten that there is a


housing deficit in this country rather than the economic deficit


George Osborne was focusing on, and this is an example of trying to get


house-building going. It seems entirely sensible, not sure how it


works with right to buy but again as framing of a 90 minute it makes


sense. I disagree with Steve on one front which is how sensible Theresa


May's policy is on the housing announcement. I think more broadly


these two announcements have something in common which is that


over the next 24 hours both will probably unravel in different ways.


Ye of little faith! The Mayor of London has already said he doesn't


agree with this, and when people see the actual impact of what looks like


a populist tax will very potentially affect people's pensions, it might


become a lot less popular. On the Tory housing plans, I think it is


difficult to imagine how they are going to implement this huge, what


looks like a huge land and property grab. Through compulsory purchase


orders, which are not a simple instrument. They say they will


change the law but really the idea of paying people below the market


value for their assets is not something I can see sitting easily


with Tory backbenchers or the Tories in the House of Lords. Tom. Both


would appear superficially to be appealing to traditional left and


traditional right bases. What is more Tory than right to buy, then


councils sell on these houses, and Labour slapping a massive tax on the


city. The Tories' plan, I would say look a bit deeper and all of the


Tory narrative from the last six years which hasn't worked well is


talking about the private sector increasing supply in the market. Now


Mrs May is talking about the role for the state after all so this is


the shift creeping in. On the Labour transaction tax, one of the most


interesting things I heard in days was from Paul Mason, former BBC


correspondent, now a cog in Easter extreme. On Newsnight he said don't


worry about whether the Labour manifesto will add up, I'm promising


it will, the bigger Tory attack line should be what on earth will be the


macroeconomic effect of taking so much tax out of the system. Very


well, we shall see. At least we have some policies to talk about.


Now, on Tuesday Labour will launch its manifesto.


But we've already got a pretty good idea of what's in it -


that's because most of its contents were leaked to the media


Labour has a variety of spending pledges including an extra


?6 billion a year for the NHS, an additional ?8 billion for social


care over the lifetime of the next parliament,


as well as a ?250 billion in infrastructure over


The party will support the renewal of the Trident submarine system,


although any Prime Minister should be extremely cautious


about its use, and the party will hold a strategic defence


and security review immediately after the election.


In terms of immigration, Labour will seek "reasonable


management of migration", but it will not make "false


Elsewhere, university tuition fees will be abolished,


and the public sector pay cap, which limits pay rises


for public sector workers to 1%, will be scrapped.


The party also aims to renationalise the railways, the Royal Mail


and the National Grid, as well as creating at least one


A senior Labour backbencher described it to the Sunday Politics


as a manifesto for a leadership who don't "give a toss


about the wider public", and several other Labour candidates


told us they thought it had been deliberately


leaked by the leadership, with one suggesting


the leak was intended to "bounce the National Executive"


And we're joined now from Salford by the Shadow Business Secretary,


Welcome to the programme. The draft manifesto proposed to renationalise


the number of industry. You will wait for the franchises to run out


rather than buy them out at the moment so can you confirm the


railways will not be wholly nationalised until 2030, after three


Labour governments, and Jeremy Corbyn will be 80? I'm not going to


comment on leaks, you will just have to be patient and wait to see what


is in our manifesto. But you have already announced you will


nationalise the railways, so tell me about it. We have discussed taking


the franchises into public ownership as they expire, however the detail


will be set out in the manifesto so I'm not prepared to go into detail


until that policy is formally laid out on Tuesday. That doesn't sound


very hopeful but let's carry on. You will also nationalise the National


Grid, it has a market capitalisation of ?40 billion, why do you want to


nationalise that? Again, I'm not going to speculate on leaks, you


will just have to be patient. But you said you will nationalise the


National Grid so tell's Y. The leaks have suggested but you will just


have to wait and see what the final manifesto states on that one. So is


it a waste of time me asking you how you will pay for something that


costs 40 billion? Be patient, just couple of days to go, but what I


would say is there is growing pressure from the public to reform


the utilities sector. The Competition and Markets Authority


stated in 2015 that bill payers were paying over till debt -- ?2 billion


in excess of what they should be paying so there is a clear need for


reform. The bills we get are from the energy companies, you are not


going to nationalise them, you are going to nationalise the


distribution company and I wondered what is the case for nationalising


the distribution company? As I said, our full plans will be set out on


Tuesday. In relation to the big six energy companies, we know in recent


years they have been overcharging customers... There's no point in


answering questions I am not asking. I am asking what is the case for


nationalising the National Grid? There is a case for reforming the


energy sector as a whole and that looks at the activities of the big


six companies and it will look at other aspects too. You will have to


be patient and wait until Tuesday. What about the Royal Mail? Again,


you will have to wait until Tuesday. Why can't you just be honest with


the British voter? We know you are going to do this and you have a duty


to explain. I'm not even arguing whether it is right or wrong. The


Royal Mail was sold off and we know it was sold under value and British


taxpayers have a reason to feel aggrieved about that. There is a


long-term strategy that would ensure the Royal Mail was classified as a


key piece of infrastructure but the details of that will be set out in


our manifesto because we want to ensure businesses and households


ensure the best quality of service when it comes to their postal


providers. You plan to borrow an extra 25 billion per year, John


McDonnell has already announced this, on public investment, on top


of the around 50 billion already being planned for investment. You


will borrow it all so that means, if you can confirm, that many years


after the crash by 2021, Labour government would still be borrowing


75 billion a year. Is that correct? We have set out ?250 billion of


capital investment, and ?250 billion for a national investment bank. Our


financial and fiscal rules dictate we will leave the Government in a


state of less debt than we found it at the start of the parliament so we


won't increase the national debt at the end of our Parliamentary term.


How can you do that if by 2021 you will still be borrowing around 75


billion a year, which is more than we borrow at the moment? The 500


billion figure is set out over a period of ten years, it's a figure


that has been suggested by Peter Helm from Oxford University as a


figure that is necessary to bring us in line with other industrial


competitors. Similar figures have been suggested by groups such as the


CBI. By the way I have not included all 500 billion, just the 250


billion on public spending, not the extra money. You talk about the


fiscal rules. The draft manifesto said you will leave debt as a


proportion of trend GDP law at the end of each parliament, you have


just said a version of that. What is trend GDP? In clear terms we will


ensure the debt we acquire will be reduced by the end of the


parliament. We won't leave the Government finances in a worse state


than we found them. OK, but what is trend GDP? Our rule is we will


ensure public sector net debt is less than we found it when we came


to power in Government on June the 8th. But that is not what your draft


manifesto says. I'm not going to comment on leaks, you are just going


to have to wait until Tuesday to look at the fine detail and perhaps


we will have another chat then. You have published your plans for


corporation tax and you will increase it by a third and your


predictions assumed that will get an extra 20 billion a year by the end


of the parliament. But that assumes the companies don't change their


behaviour, that they move money around, they leave the country or


they generate smaller profits. Is that realistic? You are right to


make that point and you will see when we set out our policies and


costings in the manifesto that we haven't spent all of the tax take.


We have allowed for different differentials and potential changes


in market activity because that would be approved and direction to


take. But corporation tax is allowed to be cut in France and the United


States, it's only 12.5% in Dublin. Many companies based in Britain are


already wondering whether they should relocate because of Brexit,


if you increase this tax by a third couldn't that clinch it for a number


of them? No, we will still be one of the lowest corporation tax rate in


the G7. Let's look at what's important for business. Cutting


corporation tax in itself doesn't improve productivity, or business


investment and there's no suggestion cutting corporation tax in recent


years has achieved that. Businesses need an investment in tools in


things they need to thrive and prosper, they also need to reduce


the burden at the lower end of the tax scale, before we get to the


Prophet stage. One key example is business rates. We have made the


proposal to government to in -- exclude machinery so businesses can


invest and grow operations in the future but the Government refused.


Corporation tax has been cut since 2010. When it was 28% it brought in


?43 billion a year. Now it is down to 20%, it brought in ?55 billion a


year. By cutting it in the last year, it brought in 21% more, so


what is the problem? It might have brought in more money, but has it


increased business investment in the long term. It is not just about


cutting corporation tax, but it is on the ability of businesses to


thrive and prosper. Business investment in the UK is below are


industrial competitors. Wages are stagnating which doesn't indicate


businesses are not doing well. Let me get it right, you are arguing if


we increase business tax by a third, that will increase investment? I am


not saying that. You just did. Know I didn't, I said reducing business


tax isn't enough, you have to invest in the things businesses need to


thrive and prosper. You have also got to lessen the burden on


business. You have announced a financial transaction tax. Your own


labour Mayor of London said he has vowed to fight it. He said I do not


want a unilateral tax on business in our city, so why are you proceeding


with it? This isn't a new initiative, there is a growing


global pressure to make sure we have fairness in the financial sector.


Ordinary British people are paying for our banking crisis they didn't


cause. Another important point, stamp duty reserve tax was brought


in in the 1600 and there have been little reforms. The sector has


changed and we have do provide changes to the system for that


change. High-frequency trading where we have a state of affairs where a


lot of shares are traded on computers within milliseconds. We


need a tax system that keeps up with that. What happens if they move the


computers to another country? Emily Thornaby said this morning, other


countries had already introduced a financial transaction tax, what


other countries have done that? There are ten countries looking at


introducing a transaction tax. Which ones have done it so far? They will


be later announcing a final package, going through the finer detail at


the moment. But the European Commission tried to get this done in


2011 and it still hasn't happened in any of these countries. But you are


going to go ahead unilaterally and risk these businesses, which


generate a lot of money, moving to other jurisdictions. There is not a


significant risk of that happening. The stamp duty reserve tax is levied


at either where the person or company is domiciled or where the


instrument is issued rather than worth the transaction takes place.


This tax in itself is not enough to make people leave this country in


terms of financial services because there is more to keep these


businesses here in terms of the investment we are making, the


economy that Labour will build, in terms of productivity improvement we


will see. Thank you very much, Rebecca Long-Bailey.


And listening to that was the Home Office Minister, Brandon Lewis.


Over the years, you have got corporation tax by 20%, it is lower


than international standards, so why are so many global companies who


make money out of Great Britain, still not paying 20%? It is one of


the problems with the point Labour were making and Rebecca could not


answer, these companies can move around the world. One of the


important things is having a low tax economy but these businesses, it


encourages them to come at a rate they are prepared to pay. People may


say they are right, if they were paying 19, 20% incorporation tax.


But they are not. Google runs a multi-million pound corporation and


did not pay anywhere near 20%. There are companies that are trading


internationally and that is why we have to get this work done with our


partners around the world. Has there been an improvement? It is more than


they were paying before. Whether it is Google or any other company,


alongside them being here, apart from the tax they pay, it is the


people they employ. The deal was, if you cut the business tax, the


corporation tax on profits, we would get more companies coming here and


more companies paying their tax. It seems it doesn't matter how low, a


number of companies just pay a derisory amount and you haven't been


able to change that. As you outlined, the income taken from the


changing corporation tax has gone up. That is from established British


companies, not from these international companies. It is


because more companies are coming here and paying tax. That is a good


thing. There is always more to do and that is why we want to crack


down. In the last few weeks in the Finnish Parliament, Labour refused


to put to another ?8.7 billion of tax take we could have got by


cracking down further. You claim to have made great progress on cracking


down on people and companies to pay the tax they should. But the tax gap


is the difference between what HMRC takes in and what it should take in.


It has barely moved in five years, so where is the progress? He have


brought in 150 billion more where we have cracked down on those tax


schemes. The gap is still the same as it was five years ago. It's gone


from 6.8, 26.5. It has gone down. The Prime Minister and the


Chancellor said they want to continue work on to get more money


on these companies while still having a competitive rate to


encourage these companies. While big business and the wealthy continue to


prosper, the Office for Budget Responsibility tell us those on


average earnings in this country will be earning less in real terms


by 2021 than they did in 2008. How can that be fair? I don't see it


that way. I haven't seen the figures you have got. What I can say to you,


Andrew, we have made sure the minimum wage has gone up, the actual


income tax people pay has gone down. So in their pocket, real terms,


people have more money. You are the self-styled party of work. We keep


emphasising work. Under your government you can work for 13 years


and still not earn any more at the end of it, and you did at the start.


Where is the reward for effort in that? I have not seen those figures.


There are 2.8 million more people, more jobs in economy than there was.


1000 jobs every day and people are working and developing through their


careers. This is what I thought was odd in what Rebecca was saying,


investing in people is what the apprenticeship levy is about,


companies are investing their works force to take more opportunities


that there. We are talking about fairness, politicians talk about


hard-working people and we know the average earnings are no higher than


they were in 2008. We know the pay and bonuses of senior executives


have continued to grow and the Institute for Fiscal Studies has


shown 3 million of the poorest households will lose an average of


?2500 a year in the next Parliament, benefits frozen, further sanctions


kick in. 3 million of the poorest losing 2500. Under the Tories, one


law for the rich and another for the poor. It is quite wrong. First of


all, we have got to be fair to the taxpayer who is funding the welfare


and benefit system. Which is why the welfare was right. Get more people


in work and then it is important to get more people upscaling. As that


allowance rises, people have more of the money they earn in their pocket


to be able to use in the economy. People will be worse off. 2500,


among the poorest already. They will have more money in their pocket as


we increase the allowance before people pay tax. We have seen


millions of people coming out of tax altogether. The reason I ask these


questions, you and the Prime Minister go on and on about the just


about managing classes. I am talking about the just about managing and


below that. It is all talk, you haven't done anything for them. We


have made sure they have an increasing minimum wage, it has gone


up more under us than any other previous government. Their wages


will be still lower in real terms. Let me come on to this plan for


housing. We have announced a new plan to increase affordable housing,


social housing, some council housing and social housing built by the


associations. How much money is behind this? It is part of the 1.4


billion announced in the Autumn Statement. How many homes will you


get for 1.4 billion? That depends on the negotiations with local


authorities. It is local authorities, who know the area best.


I will not put a number on that. 1.4 billion, if you price the house at


100,000, which is very low, particularly for the South, back at


you 14,000 new homes. That is it. What we have seen before, how the


local government can leveraged to build thousands more homes. That is


what we want to see across the country. It is not just about the


money, for a lot of local authorities it is about the


expertise and knowledge on how to do this. That is why support from the


housing communities minister will help. What is the timescale, how


many more affordable homes will be built? I will not put a number on


it. You announced it today, so you cannot tell me how many more or what


the target is? It is a matter of working with the local authorities


who know what their local needs are, what land they have got available.


What we saw through the local elections with the Metro mayors,


they want to deliver in their areas, whether it is the West of England,


the north-east, Liverpool, Manchester and we want to work with


them. You have said variations of this for the past seven years and I


want some credibility. When you cannot tell us how much money, what


the target and timescale is, and this government, under which


affordable house building has fallen to a 24 year low. 1.2 million


families are on waiting lists for social housing to rent. That is your


record. Why should we believe a word you say? This is different to what


we have been doing over the last two years. We want to develop and have a


strong and stable economy that can sustain that 1.4 billion homes. This


is important. In 2010, we inherited the lowest level of house building,


75,000 new homes. That is about 189,000 over the last four years.


That is a big step forward after the crash, getting people back into the


industry. More first-time buyers onto the market. Final question, in


2010, 2011, your first year in government, there were 60,000


affordable homes built. May not be enough, but last day it was 30 2000.


So why should we trust anything you say about this? On housing, we have


delivered. We have delivered more social housing. Double what Labour


did in 13 years, in just five years. This is what this policy is about,


working with local authorities to deliver more homes to people in


their local areas. Thank you. Now, they have a deficit


of between 15 and 20% in the polls, but Jeremy Corbyn and those


around him insist Labour can win. If the polls are right they've got


three and half weeks to change voters' minds and persuade those


fabled undecided voters We enlisted the polling organisation


YouGov to help us find out how the performance of party leaders


will affect behaviour Leeds, a city of three quarters


of a million people, eight Parliamentary seats and home


to our very own focus group. Our panel was recruited


from a variety of backgrounds and the majority say they haven't


decided who to vote for yet. Watching behind the glass,


two experts on different sides Giles Cunningham, who headed up


political press at Downing Street under David Cameron


and Aaron Bastani, Corbin supporter, under David Cameron


and Aaron Bastani, Corbyn supporter, I think Theresa May sees herself


as a pound shop Thatcher. Milliband's policies but when it


came about who you want,


if you wake up on maybe a 2015, We found in a couple of focus


groups, people saying we'd be quite relieved,


even though some of those same people have been saying we quite


like the Labour policies. I think the fact that Corbyn's


going so hard on his values, this is a really progressive


manifesto, they live But I think that's a new challenge,


that wasn't there in 2015. Is there anyone here that


you don't recognise? After a little warm up,


the first exercise, recognising I think it's nice to have a strong


woman in politics, I do. But I've got to say,


when she comes on the news, I kind of do think,


here we go again. Tell me about Tim Farron, what


are your impressions of Tim Farron? It isn't going to do anything,


it isn't going to change anything. You'll be surprised to hear it's


actually the Greens. Strong and stable leadership


in the national interest. Yes, Team May, it's


the British equivalent of make What do we think about this one


for the many and not the few? It's not quite as bad


as strong and stable, but it will probably get


on our nerves after a while. We must seize that chance today


and every day until June the 8th. But that's not quite my


question, my question is, if you are Prime Minister,


we will leave, come hell or high water, whatever is on the table


at the end of the negotiations? If we win the election,


we'll get a good deal with Europe. Assertive and in control


and he felt comfortable But the second one, I thought


he was very hesitant. I thought he was kind of,


hovering around, skirting around and that's the second


time I've seen a similar interview with the question


being asked regarding Brexit. I don't think I'd have


any confidence with him You think you are going up


against some quite strong people, how are you going to stand


up for us? When you are in negotiations,


you need to be tough. And actually is right


to be tough sometimes, particularly when you are doing


something for the country. There's a reason for talking


about strong and stable leadership. It's about the future


of the country, it's It's just that people kind of listen


to that kind of thing and think Both on The One Show


and in the news. She attracts the public better


than what Corbyn does. She didn't answer the question


in a more articular way than Corbyn Imagine that Theresa


May is an animal. So, in your minds,


what animal is coming to mind I've done a Pekinese because I think


she's all bark and no bite. Alpaca because she's


superior looking and woolly I don't think his policies


are for the modern, real world. A mouse because they are weak


and they can be easily bullied, but also they can catch


you by surprise if you're What do you take away


from what you saw then, and what message would you send back


to the Tories now? I think what came over is people see


Theresa May as a strong politician, not everyone likes her,


but you don't need to be liked to be elected,


because ultimately it's about who do you trust with your future


and your security. I think what I also take out


of that focus group, was it was a group of floating


voters, there was no huge appetite for the Lib Dems and there was no


huge appetite for Ukip. So my messaged back to CCHQ


would be stick to the plan. I thought the response


to the manifesto was excellent. It's clear that people aren't


particularly keen on Theresa May, There are some associations with her


about strength and stability, which is exactly what the Tory party


want of course, but they are not positive and nobody thinks


that she has a vision So, what I'd say the Jeremy Corbyn,


what I'd say to the Labour Party is, they need to really emphasise


the manifesto in Jeremy Corbyn himself has to perform


out of his skin and I think he has to reemphasise those


characteristics which may be have come to the fore may be


over the last 12 months, resilience, strength and the fact


that he's come this far, why not take that final step and go


into ten Downing Street? We're joined now by the American


political consultant For the sake of this discussion,


assume the polls at the moment are broadly right, is there any hope for


Mr Corbyn in the undecided voters? Know, and this is a very serious


collection with serious consequences to who wins. Nobody cares whether


you can draw and what animal they represent, they want to know where


they stand, and I felt that was frivolous. I come to Britain to


watch elections because I learned from here. Your elections are more


substantial, more serious, more policy and less about personality


and that peace was only about personality. That's partly because


Mrs May has decided to make this a presidential election. You can see


on the posters it is all Team May. I agree with that, and in her language


she says not everyone benefits from a Conservative government, I don't


see how using anything Republicans have used in the past. In fact her


campaign is more of a centrist Democrats but it is a smart strategy


because it pushes Corbyn further to the left. Of course you said Hillary


Clinton have won. On election night the polling was so bad in America,


the exit polls that were done, the BBC told America she had won. No, I


was anchoring the programme that night, I ignored your tweet. The BBC


had the same numbers. Yes, but we did not say she had won, I can


assure you of that. Because of people like you we thought she had


but we didn't broadcast it. That was a smart approach. My point is other


than teasing you, maybe there is hope for Jeremy Corbyn. I think you


will have one of the lowest turnout in modern history and I think Labour


will fall to one of the lowest percentages, not percentage of


number of seats they have had, and this will be a matter of


soul-searching for both political parties. What you do with a sizeable


majority, and she has a responsibility to tell the British


people exactly what happens as she moves forward. He and Labour will


have to take a look at whether they still represent a significant slice


of the British population. Do you see a realignment in British


politics taking place? I see a crumbling of the left and yet there


is still a significant percentage of the British population that once


someone who is centre-left. And they like a lot of Mr Corbyn's policies.


I'm listening to Michael foot. I went to school here in the 1980s and


I feel like I'm watching the Labour Party of 35 years ago, in a


population that wants to focus on the future, not the past. Thank you.


It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.


Coming up in the North West: Is the bubble about to burst


Ukip polled more than 5000 votes in both Blackpool seats two years


ago but is the party's purple patch now over?


Well, they might like to be beside the seaside, but this


week's guests are stuck in the studio with me.


Julie Cooper is the Labour candidate for Burnley,


Mark Menzies the Conservative contesting Fylde and John Bickley


is standing for Ukip in Eddisbury in Cheshire.


So, trusts in all of your patches - Blackpool, East Lancashire


and Cheshire and Wirral - were affected by this


Another NHS crisis that could have been prevented by better funding?


This is a crisis that has affected 150 countries around the world, some


of the biggest companies, FedEx, Nissan, this is the act of


terrorists and extortionists. The government setting up the national


cyber Security Centre anticipated attacks like this and put money into


it but what we need to do is ensure we cannot be complacent and we need


to be vigilant because there are people out there who want to disrupt


our way of life and we cannot allow that to happen. Would Labour have


prevented this? Labour would have taken the advice over 12 months ago.


The systems need upgrading desperately. We could have avoided


this chaos. It has put patients record and treatment at risk. What


is your take on this John Bickley? The NHS does not have enough money


because Labour gave it all away. I guarantee now there will be no


manager sacked over this. The managers in the public service,


particularly at -- the NHS, will not be sacked, they earn over ?100,000,


it's not good enough. Examples over and over again, this is the latest,


this is an incident that has been waiting to happen. We were told the


money for this was pulled by the government. I don't know where you


got that from because ?50 million has gone into protect the NHS. The


government has put in ?1.5 billion as part of this National cyber


Security strategy said Gutman has anticipated, acted on and we are


doing coming. We're not doing it to grab votes. -- so this and has


anticipated. It is sad that the Labour Party is trying to weaponised


the NHS to get votes. Is it not a shame that we are closing the gate


after the horse has bolted? Promise of money tomorrow for systems in the


NHS. If the system had been put in place 12 months ago when the advice


was given, this could have been avoided. ?50 million from the


government has gone in. Now, maths was never my strong


point, and both Labour and the Lib Dems reckon


the Conservative sums on school spending should have them standing


in the corner in a dunce's cap. Both parties say they'll find


billions more for education, which should please one local head,


who's written to parents for help I've only got enough


for packet of crisps. Grange Hill's notorious bully


Gripper Stebson was pretty direct It didn't end well for Gripper


and the head teacher at Sale High is hoping a more diplomatic approach


to asking parents for money Lynne Nichol said her school,


where more than foul in ten pupils receive free meals,


faces a big funding gap. It's about sharing with parents


and getting them engaged So, in my letter I'm not asking


directly for funding. What kind of things


could you contribute? Would you be able to offer


a financial contribution? Would you be able to offer us


support with your time? The National Audit Office says


the education budget will have a ?3 billion deficit


within three years and opposition parties are very keen to put


problems at schools at the centre Labour this week pledged an extra


?5 billion through education. Jeremy Corbyn said reversing


cuts to corporation tax The Liberal Democrats reckon


they can find an extra ?7 billion and will tell us where it's coming


from in due course. The Conservatives say school


funding is at record levels and will increase further as pupil


numbers rise over What Labour and the Liberal


Democrats are saying is really quite different from what the current


government policy is but, as ever, You either raise taxes,


Labour is talking about raising taxes significantly to pay


for better public services or you reduce spending on the public


service and you keep Back in the Sale, parents


so they understand why the head has You want the best education


for workloads and if they are asking for money then personally I don't


see anything wrong with it. Isn't a bit unusual to ask parents


to fund the school when we're I am disgusted by it really


because we do pay our taxes for that and I would expect schools


to be properly funded. But will promises to balance


the books in our schools I will come to you first, Mark,


thousands of teachers face the sack, in Cheshire they are talking about


going back to a four day week. What is being done about that? Due had a


situation under Labour where some schools were getting 50% more than


others but not under that familiar in the Northwest the majority of


schools will lose out stop yellow constituents will... In Cheshire,


West funded in the country. I'm sorry, schools in my constituency,


historically were underfunded, are getting more money. But we want more


still. We can only get that if you have a strong and stable economy.


The Labour Party donor how to run an economy said you can promise giving


a lot of money to schools but if your economy has crashed your debt


have money to spend -- be Labour have money to spend -- be Labour


Party don't know how to run an economy. I'm sure headteachers would


welcome the funding increase but it comes at the expense of a


corporation tax, which it shrink the economy, it isn't worth it, is it?


We had to invest in education and skills to make sure that every


citizen, every pupil coming out of citizen, every pupil coming out of


school is fully able to contribute to the economy. The vast majority of


schools in my constituency are going to lose funding to the tune of ?435


per child. I ask a question, how is that going to help them contribute?


How will they come out of school fit to take up the employment


opportunities that we are all working hard to create for them? If


these improvements are going to be funded by corporation tax increases,


the Robin Hood tax being talked about today, an extra fee for


financial transactions in the city, if ultimately that causes companies


to leave the UK, in the end it doesn't help? We already have the


lowest corporation tax in the developed world. There is plenty of


scope for us to raise corporation tax that will have no impact on


business. We can raise it to a level that will bring millions into the


education system and still will not impact adversely on the economy.


Heritage is making it up, is she? I don't think she is making it up full


stop -- the headteacher is not making it up, is she? But we have


put in record sums of money in our government. Record sums of money,


the National funding from Europe, in the past there was no such thing.


The ridiculous situation -- the national funding formula. The


ridiculous situation in the past where it was unfair. I am happy for


the money coming up north from London. All you get from the Labour


increased taxes. In our manifesto, increased taxes. In our manifesto,


we will demonstrate that by leaving the EU and saving ?10 billion a year


by stop giving ?12 billion away in foreign aid, we can use that money,


charity begins at home. But that money has been promised for


everything, the NHS, education... Sample social care but somebody


education system. -- some for social care. We can stop the overcrowding


but we need to put priorities right and put British people first. Stop


throwing money away and is adapting the easy thing to do is put up


taxes, how about we stop trying to spend so much money? If I don't earn


enough money, I have to stop spending and... Putting British


people first on education, John Bickley says. But we have


commitments to help people are commitments to help people are


people in the world. Like North Korea? We don't give money to them.


This is all Ukip stuff. You can open their mouth and rubbish comes out.


It is a good job that when we are dealing with helping some of the


poorest people in the world, the victims of Syria, this government


has a proud record on that. When you talk about your policies for


education you want more grammar schools. Would that not take money


away from the contented school struggling? Not necessarily. It


would. When I grew up on every council estate there was a grammar


school. Those schools were there to help working class kids. Both of


your governments took the opportunity away from working class


kids. It used to be there for them and we want to get it back again so


on council states around this country there will be a grammar


school. So for every grammar school there will be five secondary moderns


and that's what you are advocating that is the mass of it. This is a


red herring. We need properly funded schools. Headteachers and teachers


are saying that we cannot do the job that we are trained to do. Our


children are suffering. We can't maximise their potential. The


business of the funding formula, there is nothing fair about a


funding formula that takes out of every child's School in my


constituency, one of the most deprived constituencies. But there


has been underfunding everywhere... But instead of a levelling down, I


don't want to take away from the education of any child. Should not


did the that if we are serious about growing our economy, it starts in


the schools, it starts in the nursery schools and primary schools


and through the secondary schools. Two years ago John Bickley's Ukip


contested more than 95% of seats But this time around they're


standing in less than half the 72 in our region,


including none in Liverpool. And in last week's local elections,


the party's share of the vote was less than half what it


polled in 2015. So where will those Ukip voters


put their cross on June the 8th? More people in Blackpool


voted Leave than anywhere else in the North West


- nearly 70%. The town, then, should be a snapshot


of perfect Ukip territory. Two years ago, one


of their candidates here, Are you seriously saying that Ukip


can win Blackpool South? Now the political outlook has


shifted and so has he. What's changed in


the last two years? I think when I was asked to stand


as a candidate this time I realised that it's not about me,


it's about the people of Blackpool The only way that change


is going to come about is by people voting Conservative,


as they have a real Peter's also worried about some


of the party's policies. Do you fear for Ukip


with the way things are going? I think they run the risk


of being wiped out in this election. The concern as well is I can't


describe some of the policies that It's almost going back


to Neanderthal times. But Ukippers preparing


their campaign in Blackpool are convinced that their balloon


hasn't been popped. Now that Brexit is happening,


there's not as much point to Ukip. Well, no, there's every point


to Ukip because the job The job is only half done


because we haven't actually left anything and we're still actually


paying ?350 million Have you got a realistic chance


inside of the seats to using? I wouldn't like to bet on it quite


frankly but nevertheless we'll have a good go and every vote


for Ukip is a message Blackpool has two seats,


on this side of the North Pier it's the Conservatives in charge


but if you head over here to the south, down


past the tower there, Ukip polled well in both


constituencies last time around with more than 5000 votes in each,


so what now happens to those voters will go a long way to deciding


the outcome in this town. You wouldn't consider Ukip,


even with a top that colour? Ukip if there was a proper option


but it's obvious they're not going to get in because everybody's


switching to the Conservatives. I think they've done


what they set out to do. Because I believe in Labour,


that's why, I think At the moment, the Ukip vote


is breaking three to one That could make a difference in some


of our key marginals, particularly in the Lancashire area


where, frankly, Ukip's vote transparent over


to the Conservatives puts Thank you so much


for supporting Ukip. Ukip does still have it supporters


but are there enough of them to keep the party relevant in this


changing political landscape? So, John Bickley, Neanderthal


policies, time gone, is that the reality? No, we want to deliver


Brexit, we want to put the country before the party and we recognise


that the Conservatives are likely to be the government on June eight. We


know the Tory government mugged the British people when they took them


into the EU under false fences. Theresa May is telling us she will


deliver Brexit. She will get a large mandate to do that. Many Ukip people


will support her. We hope some Ukip MPs will be in Parliament. Not why


not support you to be in government to put it through? We are living in


the real world. It is obvious that this moment in time the Tories will


get elected in June. They are telling the British people they will


deliver Brexit so what Mark could do to prove that, will you guarantee on


this show that we will get 100% control of our fishing back, 100%


control of our wars and punched percent control of immigration and


trade? Here is somebody who doesn't know how to negotiate. You don't go


into a beginning of a negotiation saying what you are going to get and


what you are not going to get. This is why you cannot trust Ukip. They


are a spent force, a one trick pony. What I have got in my part of the


world is decent people who voted for Ukip who realise they cannot vote


for Ukip again because what they want is a strong Prime Minister who


will deliver Brexit but they also looked at a Labour Party that is


committed to defence jobs being destroyed across Lancashire with a


ban on arms sales and Theresa May is the only person they can put their


vote into. Decent people are rejecting Ukip. Conservative vote is


going to the Tories but in Bury North, a tight marginal


constituency, you are actively telling people to vote Conservative


and you are not standing. When you ask the Tory party to confirm to the


British people that when we leave the EU we will get back control of


the sovereign item such as fishing, you avoid it. I have not avoided


of immigration back? You know fine of immigration back? You know fine


well we will. You know fine well... It is better than on the record, it


is on telly. You know the Conservative Party's position is to


get control of immigration and fishing. 100% control of immigration


and lawmaking? Ukip does not understand the art of negotiation.


That is why we need Theresa May. Let's bring julienne. You would hope


that the predicted demise of Ukip would lead to some of your former


supporters coming back but if they are due to vote for the


Conservatives this is a disaster for Labour isn't it? This is complex.


Where the original support of Ukip came from is a mixture. I


on doorsteps that some of the on doorsteps that some of the


support came from Labour voters, conversations I had yesterday where


people said I voted Ukip last time because I wanted to come out of the


EU. The job has been done, now I am going back to Labour. We have other


people who will go back to being Conservatives. People feel this is a


election on Brexit, as Theresa May wants to make it. People don't have


confidence that Jeremy Corbyn would confidence that Jeremy Corbyn would


definitely take us out of Europe. What I am finding is that people in


Burnley are saying, and I have not on hundreds of doorsteps, and people


are saying that Brexit is behind us and you supported our position, we


are out of it. Is it behind us now? The result was decisive, we accept


that. People across the country and that. People across the country and


especially in my constituency, it's important we get the right deal


going forward and you cannot trust the Tories. Can you trust the Tories


on the promise to reduce the immigration to tens of thousands.


supporters with this? No, because we supporters with this? No, because we


have decent Ukip people who are looking at Theresa May as a strong


Prime Minister who will stand up to the EU 27 and get a good deal for


Britain. We are told it could be bad for the economy, you felt to do it


after promising into macro elections. Wannabe huge differences


is after Brexit you can control your that is one of the fundamental


differences and Prime Minister Theresa May has been clear that we


will have control of borders and she will negotiate get a good deal and I


would ask you, who do you think will get a better deal for Britain,


Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May? I think people out there, though the


answer to that question. Julie, as well as the leaked


manifesto, there were some more local issues for


the Labour Party this week. Steve Rotheram won't stand


again in Liverpool Walton after he was installed as mayor


for the Liverpool City Region, He said he wanted his


successor chosen locally. But the Mayor of the city


of Liverpool, Joe Anderson here, He was passed over for Dan Carden


an aide to the Unite Union's General Local members said they'd resign


and Joe Anderson responded by stating that "today


we are reminded that the Labour So, Julie, we know the public don't


like divided parties. Why parachute someone in like this? You will


understand that I have not been able to give a lot of time to worrying


about the selection of candidates in Liverpool. I have been busy running


my own election campaign. What I would say is that as we go into this


general election, as we left rest minster ready to fight for a Labour


government, we could not have been more united. -- as we left


Westminster. People from all corners of the party visit my constituency


to help pull the campaign and that is because... I had Jeremy Corbyn in


my constituency supporting me. You are one of the only few who does.


Labour Party was not united. Hundreds 70 of your colleagues did


not want Jeremy Corbyn made them. -- 170 of York colleagues did not want


Jeremy Corbyn near them. Aaron Banks saying he is a dead man walking


ahead of this election. He is not the party's biggest donor, he has


not given us any money of any substance for a long time now. Paul


Nuttall said he wanted to target Labour voters in the Northwest.


We're this election has changed everything. Let's be truthful. On


June eight we are going to get a Tory government with a large wedge


oratory. In some respects we are not happy about that, we would like more


Ukip MPs -- with a large majority. Quick word on the reality, are you


getting cocky in the Conservative Party? Theresa May bringing up fox


hunting, unnecessary and divisive. We are not getting cocky, which is


why we are going to areas that have never voted Conservative in a


generation. We are taking every vote that is out there to be won. We are


speaking to every electorate as an individual. We are not going to


unite and asking, who do we want as candidate. We're not going to Len


McCluskey to write a manifesto for us. These are the priorities of the


real Conservative Party, that's what we can expect is Theresa May


increases her mandate. Thanks to Julie Cooper,


Mark Menzies and John Bickley. Graham Brady and Lucy Powell will be


among next week's guests. And we'll have candidates


from the Liberal Democrats, Greens and other parties over


the next few weeks as well. Tories are saying. It is a very


emotive subject and we have run out of time.


On Thursday nominations closed in the 650 parliamentary


seats across the country, so now we know exactly who's


We've been analysing the parties' candidates to find out


what they might tell us about the make-up of the House


Well, we know Theresa May is committed to delivering Brexit and


analysis of Conservative candidates has shown that


in their top 100 target seats, 37 candidates supported leave


during last year's referendum campaign


and 20 supported remain; 43 have not made public


In the last parliament, the vast majority of Labour MPs


were hostile to Jeremy Corbyn so how supportive are Labour


Well, of 50 of Labour's top 100 target seats


17 candidates have expressed support for Mr Corbyn.


20 candidates supported Owen Smith in last year's leadership contest


or have expressed anti-Corbyn sentiment, and


If they won those, the Labour benches would be


marginally more sympathetic to Mr Corbyn than they are now.


What do the figures tell us about where the other


Well, the Lib Dems have decided not to stand against the Greens


in Brighton Pavilion, and are fielding 629


candidates this year - that's two fewer than 2015.


The number of Ukip candidates has fallen dramatically.


They are standing in 247 fewer constituencies than 2015,


throwing their support behind solidly pro-Brexit Tories


in some areas such as Lewes and Norfolk North.


The Greens are fielding 103 fewer candidates


than at the last election, standing down to help


other progressive candidates in some places.


The most liking statistic is the demise in Ukip candidates, is this


their swansong? And I think so. It is remarkable how few Ukip


candidates are standing. It is hard to see they will suddenly revive in


the next couple of years. I think this is probably the end. Frank


Luntz mentioned the fragmentation of the left was a feature of this


election, but also there is the consolidation of the right, and if


you take the things together that could explain why the polls are


where they are. Absolutely, that's precisely what happened at the start


of the 1980s, the right was incredibly united and that's when we


started talking about majorities of over 100 or so. No matter what the


size of Theresa May's majority, it will be the total collapse of Ukip,


but not just because we are now leaving the EU and that was their


only reason for being, but a whole lot of people voted for Ukip because


they felt the Tories were no longer listening. Theresa May has given the


impression that she is listening, and that is the biggest possible


thing that could happen to the Tory vote. Fragmentation of the left,


consolidation of the right? It's one of the lessons that is never learnt,


it happened in the 1980s, it doesn't take much for the whole thing to


fracture so now you have on the centre-left the SNP, the Labour


Party, the Greens, the Liberal Democrats all competing for the same


votes and when you have, fleetingly perhaps, large numbers coalescing on


the right in one party, there is only going to be one outcome. It


happens regularly. It doesn't mean the Tories haven't got their own


fragility. Two years ago, David Cameron and George Osborne the


dominant figures, neither are in Parliament now which is a symptom of


the fragility this election is disguising. Mrs May's position in a


way reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in the 1980s, I won't be outflanked on


the right, Nicolas Sarkozy in France, I won't be outflanked on the


right, so the National Front didn't get through either timed he ran to


the second round on like this time, and now Mrs May on Brexit won't be


outflanked Iver and as a result has seen off right flank. And also she


is looking to the left as well with some of the state interventions.


What was interesting about the analysis you showed a few minutes


ago was the number of Tory candidates who have apparently not


declared which way they voted in the referendum, and you would have


thought if this election was all about Brexit, as some would claim,


that would become an unsustainable position, and actually more it's


about leadership. But the point that I'm now hearing from a number of


Labour candidates that they are seeing Tory leaflets that don't even


have the Tory candidate's name on them, it is just about Theresa May.


I am glad they are keeping to the law because by law they have to put


it on. It has been harder for some of the smaller parties too because


of the speed of the election being called. We have the manifesto is


coming out this week. I think Labour Forshaw on Tuesday, we are not yet


sure when the Tories will bring bears out. I suggest one thing, it


will at least for people like me bring an end to the question you


will have to wait for the manifesto. And Rebecca Long baby will never


have that excuse again, isn't it wonderful! She is not the only one.


When you are trying to take the north and Midlands from Labour, I


would go to one or the other. For me, I can barely hold back my


excitement over the Tory manifesto. This will be, I think, the most


important day for the British government for the next five years.


That wasn't irony there? You actually meant that? I'm not even


being cynical at all on Sunday Politics! This is a huge day and


it's because I think we will see... I don't think Mrs May will play it


safe and I don't think we will get the broadbrush stuff that she might


be advised to do. I think she will lay out precisely what you want to


do over the next five years and take some big risks. Then finally after a


year of this guessing and theorising, we will finally work out


what Mrs May is all about. She will say she doesn't want the next


parliament to be all about Brexit, though she knows that's the next


important thing she has to deliver in some way, so she gets a mandate


for that if the polls are right but she


does have very different ideas from Mr Cameron about how to run a


country. She will I assume one to mandate for what these different


ideas are. Otherwise there is no point in holding an early election.


You will get a majority, but if you get a mandate to carry on


implementing the Cameron and Osborne manifesto it would be utterly


pointless. I agree, it is the pivotal event of the election and it


will be interesting to see the degree to which she expands on the


line which interests me about its time to look at the good that


government can do. Because in a way this moves the debate on in UK


politics from, from 97 the Blair Brown governments were insecure


about arguing about the role of government. Cameron Osborne


government similarly so, so here you have a Labour Party talking about


the role of government and the state, and Tory leader apparently


doing so was well. I think that will be really interesting to see whether


it is fleshed out in any significant way. And it is not a natural Tory


message. Harold Macmillan talked about the role of the state, Ted


Heath Mark two was pretty big on the state, the industrial policy and so


on, and even if it is not thought to be that Tory, does she get away with


it because she deliver such a big victory if that's what she does


deliver? Just inject a little note of scepticism, I wonder how much of


this is authentically Theresa May. I was interested to and talk to


someone who used to sit in cabinet meetings during which Theresa May


never expressed an opinion on anything outside the Home Office


briefs. Other ministers were roving all over their colleagues' briefs.


So where are the ideas coming from? I think we can point to Nick


Timothy. One of her closest advisers in Downing Street. It will be


interesting to see how that evolves. On Thursday I think we will all be


talking about something called Urdington Toryism. Urdington is the


suburb of Birmingham where Nick Timothy comes from, who is very much


Theresa May's policy brain and leading inspiration. Urdington


Toryism is about connecting the party with traditional working class


voters, and their belief to do that is not just taking away government


out of their lives but showing them that government can actually help


their lives. It can be a force for good to rebuild the trust. A lot of


what Mrs May talks about is all... It is talk and then a lot of it


suddenly goes by the wayside. What happened to worker directors on the


boards. It is designed to appeal to that constituency and then nothing


happens. She had an excuse before in the sense that it wasn't in the 2015


manifesto and she had a small majority so therefore she arguably


had to water down some of the stuff for example in her Tory conference


speech, which had a lot of this active government material in it. If


she puts it in the manifesto, it is a sign she plans to do it and will


have no excuse if she then gets nervous afterwards because it will


be in there. If it wasn't for Brexit, this great overwhelming


issue, I think this election will be seen as quite a significant


development in terms of an argument around the role of government,


much-needed. But Brexit unfortunately overshadows it all. As


much as we like our arguments over the role of government we will hear


strong and stable, stable and strong ad nauseam, aren't we? Absolutely,


and we heard the same old lines from the Labour Party as well so they are


all at it. It will be a fascinating week, stop talking it down! Thanks


to our panel. The Daily Politics will be


back on BBC Two at noon I'll be back here at the same time


on BBC One next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics. When it came to my TV habits,


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Andrew Neil is joined by shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey and Home Office minister Brandon Lewis to discuss the party manifestos for the forthcoming general election. Plus American political pollster Frank Luntz, and a chat with undecided voters in Leeds. Journalists Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards review the papers.