Browse content similar to 01/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics. | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
The Assembly is preparing to debate same-sex marriage | 0:00:37 | 0:00:39 | |
for the fifth time in recent years. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
But should it be a matter of conscience rather than party policy? | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
I'll be asking the Alliance Party and the SDLP | 0:00:44 | 0:00:47 | |
why it's such a difficult issue for some of their members. | 0:00:47 | 0:00:50 | |
Plus, as Emma Pengelly is made a minister | 0:00:50 | 0:00:52 | |
just a month after becoming an Assembly member, | 0:00:52 | 0:00:55 | |
is there a better way to replace MLAs than co-option? | 0:00:55 | 0:00:58 | |
And with me throughout are the journalist Allison Morris | 0:00:58 | 0:01:00 | |
and the academic Professor Peter Shirlow. | 0:01:00 | 0:01:03 | |
The Assembly will vote on same-sex marriage tomorrow | 0:01:09 | 0:01:12 | |
for the fifth time in recent years | 0:01:12 | 0:01:13 | |
and, for the fifth time, the proposal is destined to fail | 0:01:13 | 0:01:17 | |
after the DUP lodged a petition of concern. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:19 | |
However, it's not just the DUP which has a problem with the issue. | 0:01:19 | 0:01:23 | |
Members of the Alliance Party and the SDLP | 0:01:23 | 0:01:25 | |
have both either abstained or voted no on previous occasions. | 0:01:25 | 0:01:28 | |
So, should it be a matter of personal conscience? | 0:01:28 | 0:01:31 | |
With me are the SDLP's Claire Hanna, and the Alliance Party's Trevor Lunn. | 0:01:31 | 0:01:35 | |
We did ask the DUP to send someone along today, but the party declined. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:38 | |
Welcome to you both. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:40 | |
Claire Hanna, this motion isn't going to pass tomorrow. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
It can't with the petition of concern. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:45 | |
But how will your members vote? | 0:01:45 | 0:01:47 | |
I think it's unfortunate that it won't be debated fully, | 0:01:47 | 0:01:49 | |
that the outcome is pre-supposed. | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
But I understand that some of my colleagues | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
who did have a problem with it before | 0:01:54 | 0:01:56 | |
are likely to change their mind, and at least one isn't. | 0:01:56 | 0:02:00 | |
And I think at least the issue will be debated. | 0:02:00 | 0:02:04 | |
The referendum in the South, I think, | 0:02:04 | 0:02:06 | |
moved people on tremendously | 0:02:06 | 0:02:08 | |
and the arguments were aired and were played out | 0:02:08 | 0:02:11 | |
in a constructive fashion. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:13 | |
And, clearly, a lot of people changed their mind. | 0:02:13 | 0:02:15 | |
If you look how far we've come, it wasn't five years ago | 0:02:15 | 0:02:18 | |
that people were using terms like "abomination" and "repulsed", | 0:02:18 | 0:02:21 | |
and we don't hear that any more, and if you look at... | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
As I say, in the Republic, | 0:02:24 | 0:02:25 | |
the polling initially wasn't encouraging. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:27 | |
People like Enda Kenny, who weren't enthusiastic, | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
and by the end of it became strong campaigners on the issue. | 0:02:30 | 0:02:33 | |
And I think that we will see some movement in the Assembly. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:36 | |
That's interesting. So, just to be clear, in April, | 0:02:36 | 0:02:39 | |
when this was last voted on in the Assembly, | 0:02:39 | 0:02:41 | |
five members of the SDLP abstained, nine voted yes. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:45 | |
But the five who abstained, you're saying some of them | 0:02:45 | 0:02:48 | |
may have changed their positions and may vote yes tomorrow? | 0:02:48 | 0:02:50 | |
Well, that's my understanding. Do you know how many? | 0:02:50 | 0:02:53 | |
I don't want to put an exact number on it. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:55 | |
But it has been discussed, and I think a number of things... | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
Have they been threatened with disciplinary action? | 0:02:58 | 0:03:01 | |
No, they haven't been threatened. | 0:03:01 | 0:03:02 | |
I don't think that's the type of debate that we want to have. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
I certainly don't want to be in a party where people are coerced, | 0:03:05 | 0:03:08 | |
that doesn't allow dissent. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:10 | |
I don't want to be in a society that doesn't allow dissent. | 0:03:10 | 0:03:12 | |
I think people are balancing up, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:13 | |
people are struggling to reconcile it with their faith. | 0:03:13 | 0:03:16 | |
Although I personally was very encouraged, | 0:03:16 | 0:03:19 | |
and I know other members have been, | 0:03:19 | 0:03:20 | |
by the likes of organisations, Faith in Marriage, | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
that talk about what a great institution marriage is | 0:03:23 | 0:03:25 | |
and how it's helpful to extend it. | 0:03:25 | 0:03:27 | |
But I think people have been persuaded by the argument, | 0:03:27 | 0:03:29 | |
they've seen some of the testimony of people in the South | 0:03:29 | 0:03:33 | |
of what it has meant to them to have equal marriage offered to them, | 0:03:33 | 0:03:36 | |
what it has meant to young people | 0:03:36 | 0:03:38 | |
who might have been struggling with their sexuality... OK. ..and the perception of it. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:41 | |
There have been, Trevor Lunn, four votes on this in the past. | 0:03:41 | 0:03:45 | |
You have voted against and you have also abstained. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:48 | |
You've had a change of heart. Are you going to vote yes tomorrow? | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
Yes, Mark, I'll be voting yes, along with five of my colleagues. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:56 | |
We're still talking to two of them. | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
It has been a journey for me, certainly. | 0:03:59 | 0:04:03 | |
I have gone from having misgivings a way back about civil partnerships, | 0:04:03 | 0:04:07 | |
right through the whole spectrum of opinion on this. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:10 | |
I'm now satisfied it's an equality issue. | 0:04:10 | 0:04:13 | |
And if I think that gay people are equal to the rest of us, and I do, | 0:04:13 | 0:04:17 | |
and if I think they're entitled to display that, | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
if I think they're entitled to adopt, as I do, | 0:04:20 | 0:04:22 | |
and I have no problem whatever with gay blood, | 0:04:22 | 0:04:25 | |
in fact, equality right across the board, | 0:04:25 | 0:04:28 | |
then I find it very difficult any more to oppose civil marriage... | 0:04:28 | 0:04:32 | |
civil marriage. | 0:04:32 | 0:04:34 | |
Do you think, then, that you got it wrong in the past? | 0:04:34 | 0:04:36 | |
I think politicians are entitled to change their mind, Mark. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
You mentioned at the top of the programme | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
whether it's equality or conscience. | 0:04:42 | 0:04:44 | |
It's an equality issue for the party. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
It's very difficult to divorce your conscience from an issue like this. | 0:04:47 | 0:04:51 | |
It's very sensitive. | 0:04:51 | 0:04:52 | |
Right across the parties... | 0:04:52 | 0:04:54 | |
All the parties in the Assembly have some problems with this. | 0:04:54 | 0:04:58 | |
What about your party colleagues who, tomorrow, | 0:04:58 | 0:05:01 | |
may abstain or might vote no? | 0:05:01 | 0:05:04 | |
We've had to deal with this... | 0:05:04 | 0:05:06 | |
In particular, the party has had to deal with me in the last five years. | 0:05:06 | 0:05:11 | |
I have not been disciplined. | 0:05:11 | 0:05:13 | |
In our last manifesto, which is really where it goes back to, | 0:05:13 | 0:05:18 | |
same-sex, equal marriage wasn't mentioned. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:22 | |
It wasn't an issue then. | 0:05:22 | 0:05:23 | |
It's since become a firm party policy. | 0:05:23 | 0:05:26 | |
But because it hasn't been endorsed in a manifesto, | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
we're taking a reasonable view with people, | 0:05:30 | 0:05:33 | |
like myself in the past, and with a couple of stragglers now, | 0:05:33 | 0:05:37 | |
who choose to maintain, | 0:05:37 | 0:05:38 | |
for their own personal reasons, a particular point of view. | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
Is that perfectly reasonable that they should do that, | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
those stragglers, as you call them, | 0:05:44 | 0:05:46 | |
who are not singing off the same song sheet as the rest of the party? | 0:05:46 | 0:05:51 | |
Is that reasonable for them to do that on this issue, or not? | 0:05:51 | 0:05:54 | |
I can hardly criticise them personally, Mark, | 0:05:54 | 0:05:58 | |
because of where I've been on this. | 0:05:58 | 0:06:00 | |
I have to respect somebody | 0:06:00 | 0:06:02 | |
who perhaps comes from a devout Catholic background | 0:06:02 | 0:06:04 | |
who just can't reconcile themselves to this, | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
or any other particular religious background. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:09 | |
But I'm comfortable with where I am now on it. | 0:06:09 | 0:06:13 | |
But I have to respect other people's views. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:16 | |
It's a sensitive issue. It is a sensitive issue, obviously. | 0:06:16 | 0:06:19 | |
Do you think, Claire Hanna, that this should be an open vote, | 0:06:19 | 0:06:23 | |
based on conscience, for all of the parties right across the board? | 0:06:23 | 0:06:26 | |
I think it probably should, | 0:06:26 | 0:06:28 | |
and that's how we'll get to an open discussion. | 0:06:28 | 0:06:30 | |
There are going to be people... | 0:06:30 | 0:06:31 | |
There are, I understand, members within the DUP | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
who would like to support it. | 0:06:34 | 0:06:35 | |
I want to be very clear, I'm 100%... I've heard that anecdotally. | 0:06:35 | 0:06:38 | |
Are you sure that is the case? I've only heard it anecdotally. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:41 | |
I haven't heard it from the horse's mouth. | 0:06:41 | 0:06:43 | |
But, you know, you would imagine, representative of society, | 0:06:43 | 0:06:46 | |
it's unlikely that 30-plus people are all opposed to it, | 0:06:46 | 0:06:49 | |
and people will have that discussion. | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
I want to be very clear. I'm 100%. | 0:06:52 | 0:06:54 | |
I have no problem supporting this, | 0:06:54 | 0:06:56 | |
and I hope the same would be of my colleagues. | 0:06:56 | 0:06:58 | |
I want them to be persuaded by the arguments. | 0:06:58 | 0:07:00 | |
I think people are balancing up their faith, | 0:07:00 | 0:07:02 | |
but also their conscience, but their duty as a representative as well. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:05 | |
I know I've had literally just shy of 500 e-mails | 0:07:05 | 0:07:09 | |
into my office in the last week asking me to support this, | 0:07:09 | 0:07:12 | |
which I'm happily doing. | 0:07:12 | 0:07:13 | |
And I think others as well are being persuaded | 0:07:13 | 0:07:15 | |
on the strength of feeling among their electorate as well. | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
But I think where people can vote on their conscience | 0:07:18 | 0:07:21 | |
is probably the only way to get it through | 0:07:21 | 0:07:23 | |
and for it not to be a petition of concern. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:25 | |
And it would be good if the Assembly could be ahead of it | 0:07:25 | 0:07:27 | |
and not have to be forced to do it through the courts. | 0:07:27 | 0:07:30 | |
It would be good if people could come to a positive realisation. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:33 | |
I'll come onto that in a moment. | 0:07:33 | 0:07:34 | |
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the courts, | 0:07:34 | 0:07:37 | |
and also on the use of the petition of concern. | 0:07:37 | 0:07:39 | |
But, Trevor, I'm just picking up on Claire Hanna's point there | 0:07:39 | 0:07:42 | |
that she's been deluged with people lobbying her on this issue. | 0:07:42 | 0:07:45 | |
I suspect you've probably had a lot of lobbying as well, | 0:07:45 | 0:07:48 | |
and some of it may have been coming from different quarters. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
Are there people who are disappointed that you have changed your position? | 0:07:51 | 0:07:54 | |
The people who praised me in the past for maintaining a position | 0:07:54 | 0:08:00 | |
are now quite critical because I've changed my position. | 0:08:00 | 0:08:04 | |
And what do you say to them in response? | 0:08:04 | 0:08:06 | |
I say to them that politicians are entitled to change their mind. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
It makes me smile... I hear you talking about, Claire, about the DUP | 0:08:09 | 0:08:14 | |
and whether all their members, for instance, would support this | 0:08:14 | 0:08:17 | |
if they weren't dragooned into acceptance of the party position. | 0:08:17 | 0:08:20 | |
I would be in absolutely no doubt about that. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:23 | |
And I wouldn't be in any doubt that there's members of Sinn Fein | 0:08:23 | 0:08:26 | |
who would not support it if they were given a free vote. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:29 | |
A free vote is the way to go on this. A free vote. | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
That's interesting that you're both saying that. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:34 | |
Are you also both saying that it is wrong | 0:08:34 | 0:08:36 | |
to use a petition of concern in a situation like this? | 0:08:36 | 0:08:38 | |
Well... Do you regard it, Trevor Lunn, as an abuse of that mechanism? | 0:08:38 | 0:08:42 | |
Well, I have long thought that petitions of concern | 0:08:42 | 0:08:45 | |
on Private Members' Motions are a complete nonsense. | 0:08:45 | 0:08:49 | |
And the petition tomorrow | 0:08:49 | 0:08:50 | |
will not change the balance of the vote one iota. | 0:08:50 | 0:08:54 | |
Because the three-line whip by Sinn Fein and by DUP | 0:08:54 | 0:08:57 | |
would have exactly the same effect. | 0:08:57 | 0:08:59 | |
This is an unnecessary use of a mechanism | 0:08:59 | 0:09:03 | |
which I continue to think is unnecessary in the first place. | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
Do you agree with that? It's unnecessary, and it's inappropriate. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
The petition of concern is designed to protect minorities, | 0:09:09 | 0:09:12 | |
and in this case, it's being used to, effectively, oppress a minority. | 0:09:12 | 0:09:15 | |
It's being used to block progress for a minority. | 0:09:15 | 0:09:17 | |
So, it's inappropriate, | 0:09:17 | 0:09:19 | |
and it is using a hammer to crack a nut in this case. | 0:09:19 | 0:09:22 | |
Just a quick answer from each of you. | 0:09:22 | 0:09:24 | |
Will the courts ultimately settle this issue? Yes, they will. | 0:09:24 | 0:09:27 | |
And I think it would send out such a positive message to society | 0:09:27 | 0:09:30 | |
and to young people in particular that we can say | 0:09:30 | 0:09:32 | |
your relationships are valid and to be celebrated | 0:09:32 | 0:09:34 | |
and the same as anybody else's. | 0:09:34 | 0:09:36 | |
It's ridiculous that you can be married | 0:09:36 | 0:09:38 | |
in every other part of this island, but not in Northern Ireland. | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
Where does your marriage become invalid? | 0:09:41 | 0:09:43 | |
The courts are going to clear it up. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:45 | |
You'll look at the Supreme Court ruling in the US that says | 0:09:45 | 0:09:48 | |
you can't have inconsistent marriage laws across states. | 0:09:48 | 0:09:50 | |
It will come through, but we shouldn't have to be dragged through the hedge about it. | 0:09:50 | 0:09:54 | |
Do you agree with that? Because as we understand it, | 0:09:54 | 0:09:56 | |
there are a number of cases going through the courts at the moment. | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
Yes, there are cases pending in the courts. | 0:09:59 | 0:10:01 | |
I think it's a sad reflection, frankly, | 0:10:01 | 0:10:05 | |
on our ability to pass legislation in this country, | 0:10:05 | 0:10:08 | |
that we have to leave it to the courts. | 0:10:08 | 0:10:10 | |
But I can't help thinking that some of the people who oppose this now, | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
oppose the principle, | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
would be quite happy to see the courts take a decision on it, | 0:10:15 | 0:10:18 | |
because it gets them off the hook. | 0:10:18 | 0:10:19 | |
It's an abdication of responsibility. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:21 | |
Interesting to hear your thoughts. | 0:10:21 | 0:10:23 | |
It's going to be interesting to hear the debate and to see what the result is. | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
Although I suppose we know what the ultimate result is going to be. | 0:10:26 | 0:10:29 | |
But it will be interesting to see how the numbers stack up. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:32 | |
Let's hear what my guests of the day make of that. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:35 | |
Allison Morris and Professor Pete Shirlow are with me. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:38 | |
Allison, do you think that the tide is changing on this issue? | 0:10:38 | 0:10:42 | |
The tide's definitely changed, and we've seen that with the South. | 0:10:42 | 0:10:45 | |
Who would have thought, you know, in the Republic, | 0:10:45 | 0:10:47 | |
that was once completely controlled by the Church | 0:10:47 | 0:10:50 | |
that you would have had such a sort of swelling | 0:10:50 | 0:10:52 | |
and such support then for gay marriage? | 0:10:52 | 0:10:55 | |
And I think it makes our position seem all the more ridiculous. | 0:10:55 | 0:10:58 | |
And they're right. | 0:10:58 | 0:10:59 | |
The use of the petition of concern in this case is an abuse. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:02 | |
It's an abuse of the process. | 0:11:02 | 0:11:04 | |
And to leave it for the courts to sort out is a cop-out. | 0:11:04 | 0:11:06 | |
And if there was a free debate and if there was a free vote, | 0:11:06 | 0:11:09 | |
I think you would find, probably not with an outstanding majority, | 0:11:09 | 0:11:13 | |
but it would definitely pass through the Assembly | 0:11:13 | 0:11:16 | |
if that was allowed to go ahead. | 0:11:16 | 0:11:17 | |
Although it lost... It was two votes the other way last time round. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:20 | |
But we can hear Trevor's changed his mind. | 0:11:20 | 0:11:22 | |
I think several other people have also changed their mind. | 0:11:22 | 0:11:25 | |
And also, it's interesting to see, | 0:11:25 | 0:11:27 | |
if the Sinn Fein and the DUP both lifted their whip, | 0:11:27 | 0:11:29 | |
who would go either way? | 0:11:29 | 0:11:31 | |
Would some people in Sinn Fein vote against, or would some people in the DUP vote for? | 0:11:31 | 0:11:34 | |
Wouldn't we love to know what people really thought? | 0:11:34 | 0:11:38 | |
Because if I'm voting for someone, | 0:11:38 | 0:11:39 | |
I want to know what they think on certain issues. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:41 | |
I think that's why it should be a free vote. | 0:11:41 | 0:11:44 | |
The electorate have the right to know the people they're voting for | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
and what they think on this issue. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:48 | |
But we're a long way away from that, Pete, at this stage. | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
We're a long way away from a vote like this ever happening | 0:11:51 | 0:11:53 | |
without a petition of concern and a free vote. | 0:11:53 | 0:11:56 | |
Yeah, and we'll probably be back | 0:11:56 | 0:11:57 | |
for the sixth and seventh and eighth debate | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
unless the courts change it. | 0:12:00 | 0:12:01 | |
One of the things we have to realise here is what's happening | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
is a change in attitudes | 0:12:04 | 0:12:06 | |
which has taken place over the last 20 or 30 years. | 0:12:06 | 0:12:08 | |
If you look at the Life and Times survey | 0:12:08 | 0:12:10 | |
and you look at the recent survey we completed with the ESRC funding, | 0:12:10 | 0:12:13 | |
what you find is the vast majority of people support gay marriage. | 0:12:13 | 0:12:16 | |
And amongst those under the age of 30, | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
a significant majority support gay marriage. | 0:12:19 | 0:12:22 | |
So, we're looking at something that has changed dramatically. | 0:12:22 | 0:12:24 | |
One of the big changes that's taken place | 0:12:24 | 0:12:27 | |
when you look at that question that's been asked over 30 years | 0:12:27 | 0:12:29 | |
has been the Protestant community, | 0:12:29 | 0:12:31 | |
who have actually increasingly become supportive | 0:12:31 | 0:12:33 | |
both of gay marriage and also of mixed marriage, | 0:12:33 | 0:12:35 | |
where you now are talking about a majority | 0:12:35 | 0:12:38 | |
for both of those questions. | 0:12:38 | 0:12:40 | |
So, the tide, what Nesbitt talked about... | 0:12:40 | 0:12:42 | |
Mike Nesbitt talked about the wrong side of history. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:45 | |
They're on the wrong side of public opinion. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:46 | |
And that's crucially important. | 0:12:46 | 0:12:48 | |
And I think that idea of the courts being a fob | 0:12:48 | 0:12:50 | |
is the reality of what we're looking at here. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
We also have to realise this is a debate about righting wrongs. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:55 | |
We're talking about a community that's been criminalised, | 0:12:55 | 0:12:58 | |
that's been exploited, that's been oppressed | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
that's been placed outside society. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:02 | |
It's crucially important that we do show leadership, | 0:13:02 | 0:13:05 | |
that Northern Ireland is a plural, open, liberal, tolerant society. | 0:13:05 | 0:13:09 | |
We'll hear more from both of you a little later in the programme. | 0:13:09 | 0:13:12 | |
For now, thanks very much indeed. | 0:13:12 | 0:13:13 | |
Let's take a look back at the political week gone past | 0:13:13 | 0:13:16 | |
in 60 seconds with Chris Page. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:18 | |
As the Stormont talks approached the endgame, | 0:13:23 | 0:13:26 | |
everyone was discussing deals and deadlines. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:29 | |
I do think that we're talking more about days rather than weeks. | 0:13:29 | 0:13:33 | |
My judgment is that... | 0:13:33 | 0:13:36 | |
if we do not get agreement within the next ten days, | 0:13:36 | 0:13:42 | |
there will be no agreement. | 0:13:42 | 0:13:44 | |
We will remain in the talks at Stormont House. | 0:13:44 | 0:13:47 | |
It looks as if we've got a week or two maximum. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:49 | |
The DUP appointed their recently co-opted MLA, Emma Pengelly, | 0:13:49 | 0:13:54 | |
as a junior minister. | 0:13:54 | 0:13:55 | |
But not everyone in the party was happy. | 0:13:55 | 0:13:58 | |
Giving someone who has earned something the chance, | 0:13:58 | 0:14:01 | |
rather than someone who does not have one solitary vote. | 0:14:01 | 0:14:07 | |
A party grandee endorsed the young pretender | 0:14:07 | 0:14:09 | |
in the SDLP leadership contest. | 0:14:09 | 0:14:12 | |
But the incumbent was still confident. | 0:14:12 | 0:14:14 | |
Seamus is a very distinguished member of the party | 0:14:14 | 0:14:17 | |
and he's entitled to his opinion. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:19 | |
But we've some 300-odd other delegates out there with opinions. | 0:14:19 | 0:14:23 | |
Chris Page looking back over the week, | 0:14:30 | 0:14:32 | |
which included the appointment of Emma Pengelly. | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
That appointment has highlighted the issue of co-option, | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
the system where MLAs who leave their posts | 0:14:38 | 0:14:40 | |
can be replaced by a party colleague without a by-election. | 0:14:40 | 0:14:43 | |
But is that the best way to bring new blood to Stormont? | 0:14:43 | 0:14:46 | |
With me is the independent MLA Claire Sugden | 0:14:46 | 0:14:49 | |
and the former SDLP director of communications, Ruairi O'Kane. | 0:14:49 | 0:14:52 | |
You're both welcome to the programme. | 0:14:52 | 0:14:54 | |
Claire Sugden, you were co-opted to replace your former boss, | 0:14:54 | 0:14:58 | |
David McClarty, the late MLA. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:00 | |
Is the system the best option available to the Assembly? | 0:15:00 | 0:15:04 | |
I think it's the best option available. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
Whether it's the most ideal option's another story. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:08 | |
I wouldn't want to have been in this seat through co-option. | 0:15:08 | 0:15:11 | |
I'd rather be elected. | 0:15:11 | 0:15:12 | |
But I think it's given me now an opportunity | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
to realise that I've been given this opportunity... | 0:15:15 | 0:15:17 | |
It's a huge privilege for me and I know in this past year | 0:15:17 | 0:15:20 | |
I've certainly been trying to earn it, and I'm still earning it. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:23 | |
So, whilst, you know, | 0:15:23 | 0:15:24 | |
we wouldn't have all chosen to have gotten our seats this way, | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
it's the only system, I think, in a single transferable system. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
Is it the only option, in your view, Ruairi? | 0:15:30 | 0:15:33 | |
I think, to be fair to the parties who are elected, | 0:15:33 | 0:15:36 | |
it will be unfair, if they have a by-election, | 0:15:36 | 0:15:38 | |
for a smaller party who can then lose out to a bigger one. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
But I think where the public do have an issue, | 0:15:41 | 0:15:43 | |
the sheer volume of unelected MLAs we have at the minute. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:46 | |
There's almost a fifth, and there's a couple of reasons for that. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:49 | |
First, this Assembly has gone on a year longer than it was supposed to, | 0:15:49 | 0:15:52 | |
so we've talked a lot about people who have only mandates for four years instead of five. | 0:15:52 | 0:15:56 | |
And the second, the double jobbing has been phased out as well, | 0:15:56 | 0:15:59 | |
so we've seen more. | 0:15:59 | 0:16:00 | |
But we can perhaps tweak the system. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:02 | |
If people are going to be elected, if they were to provide a list, | 0:16:02 | 0:16:05 | |
and so people knew publicly | 0:16:05 | 0:16:07 | |
that if someone was to step down during the next period of a mandate, | 0:16:07 | 0:16:10 | |
they know who would be their substitute. | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
We've had that before, except it was done privately. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:15 | |
Parties had no control over it. | 0:16:15 | 0:16:16 | |
You look at how they do it in Scotland with the list system. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:19 | |
The SNPs, for example, | 0:16:19 | 0:16:20 | |
have already published up to 12 candidates in each constituency. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:23 | |
So, if you're in Glasgow | 0:16:23 | 0:16:25 | |
and you don't get Nicola Sturgeon as your constituency MSP, | 0:16:25 | 0:16:28 | |
you know she's coming as a list MSP. | 0:16:28 | 0:16:29 | |
That might be a bit more open. | 0:16:29 | 0:16:30 | |
At least people know then what they're getting. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:33 | |
Take a constituency like South Belfast. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:35 | |
Four of the six MLAs in South Belfast currently are co-optees. | 0:16:35 | 0:16:39 | |
Anna Lo said she's not standing again. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:41 | |
I don't know what's going to happen. | 0:16:41 | 0:16:43 | |
But if she resigns and is replaced by another candidate before next May, | 0:16:43 | 0:16:46 | |
which might or might not happen, | 0:16:46 | 0:16:47 | |
that would mean five out of the six weren't elected. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
That's quite astonishing. It is quite astonishing. | 0:16:50 | 0:16:53 | |
But we are coming towards the end of a mandate. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:55 | |
If there are going to be new candidates put in place, | 0:16:55 | 0:16:57 | |
it should happen with an election, which is less than six months away. | 0:16:57 | 0:17:00 | |
I would certainly be disappointed if some candidates ran | 0:17:00 | 0:17:03 | |
and then after the election they co-opted, | 0:17:03 | 0:17:05 | |
because they've five years ahead of them, and that's not right. | 0:17:05 | 0:17:08 | |
In situations where we've got less than a year, | 0:17:08 | 0:17:10 | |
then perhaps this is an option. | 0:17:10 | 0:17:12 | |
It is a difficult one and we would prefer it not to happen that way. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:15 | |
But it is what it is in respect of single transferable voting. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:19 | |
Yeah, I suppose the question, Ruairi, is, | 0:17:19 | 0:17:21 | |
is there now a system which has developed | 0:17:21 | 0:17:23 | |
of, effectively, party political patronage? | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
We talked there about Emma Pengelly being brought in, | 0:17:26 | 0:17:29 | |
a former special adviser, brought in as an MLA, | 0:17:29 | 0:17:32 | |
now promoted to be a minister. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:34 | |
There was quite a bit of movement within Sinn Fein | 0:17:34 | 0:17:37 | |
when Mairtin O Muilleoir was drafted into South Belfast, | 0:17:37 | 0:17:39 | |
that involved Alex Maskey moving from South Belfast to West Belfast. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:43 | |
The system was never really designed for that. | 0:17:43 | 0:17:45 | |
No, that's exactly right. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:47 | |
I mean, the spirit of the law has perhaps been bent there. | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
And I think that's when you look at each individual co-option. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:53 | |
Most are for very legitimate reasons. | 0:17:53 | 0:17:55 | |
But when you see a sort of stroke played | 0:17:55 | 0:17:57 | |
like when Alex Maskey moved to West | 0:17:57 | 0:17:59 | |
and Mairtin O Muilleoir went to South for electoral purposes, | 0:17:59 | 0:18:01 | |
that's when people begin to raise their eyebrows. | 0:18:01 | 0:18:04 | |
Emma Pengelly, as a new MLA, probably would have been better | 0:18:04 | 0:18:07 | |
turning down the offer of being put into the junior ministry | 0:18:07 | 0:18:09 | |
and spending more time in her constituency. | 0:18:09 | 0:18:11 | |
I think what this does, | 0:18:11 | 0:18:12 | |
it adds to a public kind of mood of disdain towards politics here, | 0:18:12 | 0:18:15 | |
and that's not helping. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:16 | |
To be clear, in both of those instances that we've talked about, | 0:18:16 | 0:18:20 | |
nothing was done that was against the rules. | 0:18:20 | 0:18:22 | |
No. Letter of the law, spirit of the law, | 0:18:22 | 0:18:24 | |
are the two differences here, | 0:18:24 | 0:18:26 | |
and I think when the public are turning their nose up at Stormont | 0:18:26 | 0:18:29 | |
and seeing the dysfunctionality, | 0:18:29 | 0:18:31 | |
it just adds to that sort of perception. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:33 | |
I think the parties could perhaps play it a little bit smarter. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:36 | |
As Claire rightly said, the system hasn't been abused that much. | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
There's only two instances | 0:18:39 | 0:18:41 | |
where people can say it's been controversial. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:43 | |
But I think next year, when you have people running for election... | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
If people aren't running for election and were to stand down now, | 0:18:46 | 0:18:49 | |
and allow people six months in, I think that's different. | 0:18:49 | 0:18:52 | |
But I think those who are in, such as Emma Pengelly, | 0:18:52 | 0:18:54 | |
might have been better saying no to a ministry | 0:18:54 | 0:18:56 | |
and getting into constituency work. | 0:18:56 | 0:18:58 | |
It certainly is overwhelming, the level at which it's happening. | 0:18:58 | 0:19:01 | |
We're now into double figures | 0:19:01 | 0:19:03 | |
of people who've been co-opted in this mandate. | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
But if you look at the current 108 MLAs, | 0:19:07 | 0:19:09 | |
about a fifth of current members | 0:19:09 | 0:19:12 | |
had their first taste of Stormont and through co-option, | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
either this mandate, | 0:19:15 | 0:19:16 | |
or in the previous mandate and then were subsequently elected. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:20 | |
That is quite astonishing, isn't it? | 0:19:20 | 0:19:22 | |
Yeah, it is quite a lot, but then I think | 0:19:22 | 0:19:24 | |
it's one of the negatives of a single transferable vote system. | 0:19:24 | 0:19:27 | |
I do think that when you're in this position, you have to earn it. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:31 | |
Is one month an opportunity to earn it? | 0:19:31 | 0:19:33 | |
I don't think so. It's taken me a year and I'm still earning it. | 0:19:33 | 0:19:35 | |
I think we need to move forward | 0:19:35 | 0:19:37 | |
and we need to look at people who are in the job | 0:19:37 | 0:19:39 | |
and give them what they deserve. | 0:19:39 | 0:19:40 | |
Yeah, but it's across the board. | 0:19:40 | 0:19:42 | |
We've talked about Emma Pengelly because it's an interesting example, | 0:19:42 | 0:19:45 | |
but it's not right to just single out the DUP | 0:19:45 | 0:19:47 | |
or, indeed, Sinn Fein, because pretty much all of the parties | 0:19:47 | 0:19:50 | |
have been involved in co-option. | 0:19:50 | 0:19:52 | |
You're an independent, so it's affected independents as well. | 0:19:52 | 0:19:55 | |
I agree, but the system itself is not necessarily wrong. | 0:19:55 | 0:19:58 | |
It's the only option we have, | 0:19:58 | 0:19:59 | |
but it is the parties who have chosen to abuse it | 0:19:59 | 0:20:01 | |
and to maybe put forward their own arrogance | 0:20:01 | 0:20:03 | |
and maybe put the party first | 0:20:03 | 0:20:05 | |
instead of the people, and that's wrong. | 0:20:05 | 0:20:07 | |
Hopefully, the people can decide that | 0:20:07 | 0:20:09 | |
when we come to an election next May. | 0:20:09 | 0:20:11 | |
You're a politician and you've worked with politicians a lot. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:14 | |
Politicians will always do | 0:20:14 | 0:20:15 | |
what politicians think is best for them, isn't that right? | 0:20:15 | 0:20:18 | |
They'll work the system. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:19 | |
I suppose what we do see is some parties use it differently. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:22 | |
I know from my experience with the SDLP, | 0:20:22 | 0:20:24 | |
when an opening arises, it's put to an internal vote, | 0:20:24 | 0:20:26 | |
so there's an internal contest, where some others decide | 0:20:26 | 0:20:29 | |
that they will bestow that sort of patronage on them. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:32 | |
But I do think that if the parties were honest before an election | 0:20:32 | 0:20:35 | |
and said, "Here's our candidates for the vote, | 0:20:35 | 0:20:37 | |
"but should anything happen, here's a list of ten people | 0:20:37 | 0:20:40 | |
"who may well take their place," | 0:20:40 | 0:20:41 | |
that might get round that sort of thing. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:43 | |
Also, can you tell someone if they step down from one constituency during an Assembly, | 0:20:43 | 0:20:47 | |
that's them barred from going into another? | 0:20:47 | 0:20:49 | |
That would stop the switching or the boomerang representatives who've come back in. | 0:20:49 | 0:20:53 | |
Would you support those ideas? | 0:20:53 | 0:20:55 | |
Yeah, sure, I know when David put forward my name, | 0:20:55 | 0:20:57 | |
he did it shortly after he was elected in 2011, | 0:20:57 | 0:21:00 | |
and I myself, when I was co-opted. | 0:21:00 | 0:21:02 | |
If you want to get a freedom of information, | 0:21:02 | 0:21:04 | |
you'll see whose names are on those lists. | 0:21:04 | 0:21:06 | |
I'd have no issue with that. | 0:21:06 | 0:21:07 | |
But that's something you have opted to do, you are not required to do. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:10 | |
No, I'm not required. I could have left that list blank. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:14 | |
Is that equally as fair? No, because in my own constituency, | 0:21:14 | 0:21:17 | |
we'd have got a candidate that would have never got into that position | 0:21:17 | 0:21:20 | |
had it been run through the transferable system. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:22 | |
It's trying to weigh up what's best for the people I represent. | 0:21:22 | 0:21:25 | |
It's complicated, there's no doubt about that. It is. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
Let's just have a final word from Allison and Pete. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:31 | |
What do you make of it? There's no easy answer, really. | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
A lot of people feel uncomfortable about elements of this, | 0:21:34 | 0:21:37 | |
but it's hard to fix it. | 0:21:37 | 0:21:38 | |
The co-option itself I don't think is the controversial thing, | 0:21:38 | 0:21:41 | |
especially as we are coming up to an election | 0:21:41 | 0:21:43 | |
and Emma Pengelly will have to be tested, you know, | 0:21:43 | 0:21:46 | |
by the electorate when we do come to an election next year. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:48 | |
I think the controversial aspect of that appointment | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
was her rapid rise through the ranks to junior minister, | 0:21:51 | 0:21:54 | |
and I think that's when eyebrows were raised. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
I agree, she probably would have been wiser to turn that down | 0:21:57 | 0:21:59 | |
and maybe do some work in her constituency... | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
She's ambitious, she wants to be a minister. | 0:22:02 | 0:22:04 | |
Who doesn't want to be a minister, if you get involved in politics? | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
She is, and I think the reason... | 0:22:07 | 0:22:08 | |
You know, people, the cynics, would say it's Peter Robinson, | 0:22:08 | 0:22:12 | |
who's under fire from within his own party, | 0:22:12 | 0:22:14 | |
and people who are loyal to him in positions of authority | 0:22:14 | 0:22:17 | |
to watch his back, as it was. | 0:22:17 | 0:22:19 | |
OK, well, that's one interpretation. | 0:22:19 | 0:22:21 | |
I'm not sure if necessarily those in the DUP would agree. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:24 | |
Pete, what do you make of it? | 0:22:24 | 0:22:26 | |
Let's get back to the issue of co-option in the first place. Is there a better way of doing it? | 0:22:26 | 0:22:29 | |
The Belfast Agreement, which created the Assembly, | 0:22:29 | 0:22:32 | |
created something which was coming out of conflict. | 0:22:32 | 0:22:34 | |
It created all these checks and balances | 0:22:34 | 0:22:36 | |
which were there to create some stability. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
Didn't work, given the fact it's fallen so many times | 0:22:39 | 0:22:41 | |
and the nature of the talks we're having at present. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:44 | |
But the idea was to protect the institution in some ways. | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
I think after the next election, we have to have a radical overhaul | 0:22:47 | 0:22:50 | |
of what the Assembly is and how it operates. | 0:22:50 | 0:22:52 | |
It needs to start functioning in a much more normal pattern and style. | 0:22:52 | 0:22:55 | |
In a sentence, are we going to see a resolution to the talks issue this week? | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
We were told that we had a two-week deadline before doomsday | 0:22:59 | 0:23:03 | |
and we went to direct rule. | 0:23:03 | 0:23:04 | |
They've been very quiet as to what sort of agreement has been reached. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:07 | |
I doubt very much it's going to be this week. | 0:23:07 | 0:23:09 | |
I'd say we're going to have to extend that deadline somewhat. | 0:23:09 | 0:23:12 | |
You agree? It's so quiet, they're getting on with each other. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:15 | |
Therefore, there must be something coming out of the pipeline somewhere. | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
You're suspicious? OK, all right. Interesting to hear your thoughts. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:22 | |
Thanks both very much. Thanks to my other guests. | 0:23:22 | 0:23:24 | |
That's it from Sunday Politics for this week. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:26 | |
Stormont Today is back tomorrow after the mid-term break. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:29 | |
That's on BBC Two at 11.15. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
For now, from everyone in the team, thanks for watching. Bye-bye. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
There's an extra special line-up on Nolan Live this week. | 0:24:12 | 0:24:15 | |
We'll be linking up with RTE to bring you debates | 0:24:15 | 0:24:17 | |
from studios in Belfast and Dublin. | 0:24:17 | 0:24:20 | |
And revealing the results of our cross-border survey | 0:24:20 | 0:24:23 | |
on a range of political and social issues. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:25 | |
Join me in Belfast. Join me, Miriam O'Callaghan, in Dublin. | 0:24:25 | 0:24:28 |