03/11/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


03/11/2013

Mark Carruthers looks at the political developments of the week and questions policy makers on key issues.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as

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Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to

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MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate

:00:57.:01:00.

the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that

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capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong

:01:06.:01:10.

arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be

:01:11.:01:15.

sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they

:01:16.:01:17.

should be covered up. And she'll: We talked to some of

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those who have been at the table this week and ask what the chances

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investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on

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its staff. With me as always, the best and the

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brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt

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who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they

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got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to

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a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home

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Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the

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treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met

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him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was

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prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates.

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But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting.

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Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee.

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The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there

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enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the

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police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad

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and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for

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contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to

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prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what

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is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try

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to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from

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day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I

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knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me.

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And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as

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to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not

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will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the

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Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can

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say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under

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statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This

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is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy

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of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will

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keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung

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the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like

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his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the

:04:17.:04:19.

report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in

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Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as

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deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len

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McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out

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the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a

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petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the

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Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come

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under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance

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demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of

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a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy

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the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems

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to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in

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deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him

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as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of

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labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend

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of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any

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wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len

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McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is

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in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion,

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trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved

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in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing

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new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in

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the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had

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done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in

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Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says

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you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to

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fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you

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thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the

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Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then

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instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and

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during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened

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and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I

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was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent

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enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing

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because the people who originally complained changed their evidence

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and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to

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rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true.

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We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that

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all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting

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the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are

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allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were

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put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they

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doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations

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that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea

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that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families

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has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They

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clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved

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in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important.

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Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they

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are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position

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is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw

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their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his

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family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full

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weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to

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Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an

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independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

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office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail,

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the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks

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for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since

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when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to

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the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and

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it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making

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decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift

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back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent

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protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was

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not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling

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everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had

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loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to

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join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the

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Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going

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to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were

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loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the

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Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have

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used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at

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people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to

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look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an

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absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the

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21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the

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wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever

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it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk

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constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your

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opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con

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trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your

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legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of

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trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband

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wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way

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ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company

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started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager,

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that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called

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INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring

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Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to

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a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who

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says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it

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in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make

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that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You

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instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what

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Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the

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petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due

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introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was

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being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost

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Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was

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saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and

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humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len

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McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with

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INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop

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stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns

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and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has

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condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have

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you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour

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Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested

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in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the

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requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last

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Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will

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continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they

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are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights.

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You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights.

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We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company

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to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking

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unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive

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industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all

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Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to

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implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is

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what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our

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members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not

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be cowed by media attacks on us. Is your leadership not proving to be as

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disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My

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membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are

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executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me

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standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I

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will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us

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by the media. "A country ready to welcome your

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investment which values your friendship and will never exclude

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anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The

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words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which

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was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm

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words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a

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spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the

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wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of

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some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the

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Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad.

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First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east

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London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain,

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one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it

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frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the

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British Muslim community. There are so many different sects,

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traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate

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to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one

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question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to

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address some challenging issues? Are they willing to confront

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radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of

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sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not

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nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young

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Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using

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Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this

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work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has

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been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public

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to please people but in private something very different is being

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said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people,

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it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for

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radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's

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faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if

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rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some

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sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain,

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and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and

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it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially

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when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to

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talk about grooming for example, or discrimination against women. There

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is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the

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one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist

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perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of

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minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public

:20:37.:20:52.

places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy

:20:53.:21:03.

of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and

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that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the

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preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council

:21:10.:21:15.

of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating

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sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved

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predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for

:21:26.:21:32.

some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We

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need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the

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normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and

:21:47.:21:49.

chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that

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actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible

:21:58.:22:02.

with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to

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women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures

:22:10.:22:13.

of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain

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itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they

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are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to

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are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are

:22:35.:22:34.

experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages,

:22:35.:22:39.

what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not

:22:40.:22:42.

being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance

:22:43.:22:48.

rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been

:22:49.:22:50.

found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in

:22:51.:22:55.

this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what

:22:56.:23:01.

are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem

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of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be

:23:08.:23:11.

exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many

:23:12.:23:16.

Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a

:23:17.:23:21.

big cultural gap will exist between the two.

:23:22.:23:28.

And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq

:23:29.:23:31.

Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the

:23:32.:23:40.

veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible

:23:41.:23:47.

to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory

:23:48.:23:55.

requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting

:23:56.:23:57.

themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst

:23:58.:24:11.

wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life

:24:12.:24:14.

successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red

:24:15.:24:19.

herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim

:24:20.:24:25.

girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point

:24:26.:24:35.

of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the

:24:36.:24:39.

public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones

:24:40.:24:48.

who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a

:24:49.:24:56.

practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour

:24:57.:25:02.

it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women

:25:03.:25:08.

should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the

:25:09.:25:13.

veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is

:25:14.:25:18.

important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free

:25:19.:25:25.

choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their

:25:26.:25:28.

free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it

:25:29.:25:34.

helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away

:25:35.:25:39.

from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad

:25:40.:25:44.

thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim

:25:45.:25:48.

preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim

:25:49.:25:54.

women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim

:25:55.:26:00.

women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being

:26:01.:26:08.

forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and

:26:09.:26:13.

what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,

:26:14.:26:18.

very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is

:26:19.:26:23.

wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other

:26:24.:26:30.

Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider

:26:31.:26:33.

that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any

:26:34.:26:43.

Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an

:26:44.:26:47.

organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not

:26:48.:26:53.

coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by

:26:54.:26:59.

individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that

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would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would

:27:04.:27:09.

not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires

:27:10.:27:21.

children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you

:27:22.:27:28.

agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have

:27:29.:27:37.

just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a

:27:38.:27:46.

black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on

:27:47.:27:52.

anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.

:27:53.:28:03.

I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think

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it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would

:28:10.:28:15.

wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some

:28:16.:28:26.

muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the

:28:27.:28:33.

start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I

:28:34.:28:37.

would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic

:28:38.:28:46.

girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the

:28:47.:28:51.

top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.

:28:52.:29:00.

But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those

:29:01.:29:03.

girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I

:29:04.:29:11.

am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.

:29:12.:29:18.

There is a very conservative movement from the continent on

:29:19.:29:30.

Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their

:29:31.:29:34.

website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged

:29:35.:29:41.

to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should

:29:42.:29:45.

not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you

:29:46.:29:50.

think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They

:29:51.:29:55.

are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree

:29:56.:30:05.

with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is

:30:06.:30:13.

what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is

:30:14.:30:18.

quite the contrary. Let me show you another one. Another Fatwa. Do you

:30:19.:30:40.

agree with that? These have been picked out from material dating back

:30:41.:30:44.

to different cultural settings and in practice they are not applied.

:30:45.:30:50.

This is advice being given as we speak. This is not being practised.

:30:51.:30:57.

Do you agree with it? No, not at all. These are from the DL Monday

:30:58.:31:05.

mosques, how come 72 of these mosques are affiliated to your

:31:06.:31:16.

counsel? There may be publications from one of their scholars, but they

:31:17.:31:26.

have been written in countries abroad and translated. This is

:31:27.:31:31.

advice being given to young women now. They are affiliated to the

:31:32.:31:37.

Muslim Council of Britain. Do you ever speak to them about that? The

:31:38.:31:43.

Muslim Council is a very broad organisation. We are working on lots

:31:44.:31:50.

of common issues to create a community which positively

:31:51.:31:58.

integrates. Did you ever speak to them to say this is not appropriate

:31:59.:32:05.

for British Muslims? There may be certain ad buys and publications

:32:06.:32:08.

available, but people make their choices. So it is OK for your

:32:09.:32:16.

organisation to issue things like that? Many of these things will fall

:32:17.:32:26.

under scrutiny and we need to create that. Why do only 26% of British

:32:27.:32:36.

mosques have facilities for women? If you go back to the requirement of

:32:37.:32:42.

prayer, it was not obligatory for women to come to the masks to

:32:43.:32:48.

prayer. When a poorer community began putting up mosques at the very

:32:49.:32:54.

beginning in terraced houses... Did you have a policy to encourage them?

:32:55.:33:02.

Is it on your website? It is in our practices that 20% of the council

:33:03.:33:12.

have to be female. Coming out of this movement there is a conscious

:33:13.:33:17.

stream of superiority between Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at

:33:18.:33:24.

this quote. He is a well-known picture in this country.

:33:25.:33:41.

That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we

:33:42.:33:54.

live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they

:33:55.:33:59.

have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You

:34:00.:34:04.

would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like

:34:05.:34:11.

that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation

:34:12.:34:18.

to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission's

:34:19.:34:22.

rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law

:34:23.:34:30.

of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger

:34:31.:34:38.

issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul

:34:39.:34:45.

declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it

:34:46.:34:56.

or supported it. One of your leading lights signed it. In the media

:34:57.:35:05.

mainstream he defended his position. You have this associated yourself

:35:06.:35:11.

from it? What is wrong with that? I am not sure about the declaration

:35:12.:35:19.

because we disassociated ourselves. Before reading it? We did not sign

:35:20.:35:28.

it. You have not read it? I do not know all the aspects of the

:35:29.:35:34.

declaration, but at the time in the national newspapers and media there

:35:35.:35:44.

was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not

:35:45.:35:51.

what was meant by the declaration. When did you decide so is the

:35:52.:35:55.

yourself from the declaration? From day one. We never signed it. The

:35:56.:36:05.

East London Mosque which you are personally closely associated with

:36:06.:36:09.

is the venue for a number of extremist speakers, who espoused

:36:10.:36:21.

extremist positions. In 2009 the mosque posted a video and

:36:22.:36:25.

presentation by somebody described by the UN Security Council as an

:36:26.:36:30.

Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another speaker described Christians and

:36:31.:36:35.

Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad is supporter of the Taliban there.

:36:36.:36:40.

Why do you do nothing to stop extremists like that at this mask

:36:41.:36:48.

with which you are associated with? We do not have anything to do with

:36:49.:36:53.

any rhetoric that condones or supported violence. We issue

:36:54.:36:58.

guidelines and the mosque itself is a registered charity which has its

:36:59.:37:03.

own rules and regulations, but it is a very large mosques and lots of

:37:04.:37:07.

organisations book and come and told their gatherings. We rent out the

:37:08.:37:13.

facilities. You were prepared to speak alongside a man who saluted

:37:14.:37:26.

suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy. Why would you

:37:27.:37:31.

share a platform like that? I did not share a platform like that.

:37:32.:37:35.

Different organisations come and have conferences here. Why did you

:37:36.:37:44.

agree? I did not agree with that. I completely reject that. When you add

:37:45.:37:52.

all this up the attitude to women, the alliance with the most

:37:53.:37:58.

fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the toleration of intolerant views, a

:37:59.:38:03.

willingness for you to be counted among them, why should anybody of

:38:04.:38:07.

goodwill, either a Muslim or a non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good

:38:08.:38:16.

force? It is an organisation which embraces different organisations

:38:17.:38:23.

which are affiliated in the Muslim community. You have taken snippets

:38:24.:38:28.

of certain individual views which are not the views of our affiliates.

:38:29.:38:33.

It would be unfair to represent our view based on those which you have

:38:34.:38:38.

highlighted in this programme. The work that we do is quite clear and

:38:39.:38:46.

is on our website. They are all associated with you, but we will

:38:47.:38:52.

have to leave it there. You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming

:38:53.:38:53.

up: I will be talking to joke Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

:38:54.:39:15.

in Northern Ireland. Time to break the deadlock in parades and the

:39:16.:39:24.

past, it is picking up pace. Is in decade about to announce a

:39:25.:39:30.

referendum on same-sex marriage in the Republic? I will reflect on all

:39:31.:39:38.

that. I am joined by two newspaper editors. So, Richard Harris was by

:39:39.:39:50.

in Northern Ireland this week to break the impasse on flags and the

:39:51.:39:56.

leading in the past. This week he has been meeting some of the smaller

:39:57.:40:01.

parties. John McAllister and Stephen Agnew are with us. Also with us is a

:40:02.:40:10.

woman who helped draft the report on dealing with the past. What was your

:40:11.:40:18.

engagement with the team like on Monday? Very encouraging. There were

:40:19.:40:28.

a few key messages. The Good Friday Agreement, it is about getting

:40:29.:40:32.

people back to basics. Northern Ireland does exist, let us break at

:40:33.:40:47.

work. -- let us make it work. It is a crisis we have entirely managed to

:40:48.:40:55.

create with the DUP and Sinn Fein. Were you able to get anything back?

:40:56.:41:03.

Without breaking any confidences of the discussion there were some very

:41:04.:41:11.

probing questions. He was keen to know what we were standing for, what

:41:12.:41:18.

we thought on the three main issues of flags. He was interested that we

:41:19.:41:25.

were supportive of designated days and tackling flags being left for

:41:26.:41:32.

whether to bring down and the demarcation of territory on other

:41:33.:41:38.

issues. We have been supportive and still are supportive of some kind of

:41:39.:41:44.

police committee. It needs to be regulated and he accepted that. What

:41:45.:41:57.

was the Green party pitch? We talked about success, are detox helpful, we

:41:58.:42:03.

believe they are. Something that is key for us. -- the talks. The Good

:42:04.:42:13.

Friday Agreement was the people's agreement. Whatever happened at St

:42:14.:42:19.

Andrews they did so without the people, it took place after an

:42:20.:42:24.

election. I welcome this week that it has been said there will be a

:42:25.:42:30.

mechanism to involve the people. We welcome that the cause we believe

:42:31.:42:36.

that politicians have taken the peace process and made it veers but

:42:37.:42:43.

actually it needs to involve wider society. The protests and troubles

:42:44.:42:54.

we have seen on our streets. Did you get a sense that there is a great

:42:55.:42:57.

understanding of what is happening here? I certainly think the gravity

:42:58.:43:09.

of the role is recognised. It is for politicians to find the solutions

:43:10.:43:17.

but it is for this man to find the encouragement for them. The past is

:43:18.:43:28.

likely to be the most difficult part of the remake, what is the main

:43:29.:43:34.

thrust of your argument? We do see this very much as a people 's

:43:35.:43:39.

process, something where the public and the academics of society can

:43:40.:43:43.

participate. We were generally uneasy about the way the current

:43:44.:43:53.

debate has been framed. It is a very narrow once more to the South

:43:54.:43:58.

African model. We do not think that would work for our variety of

:43:59.:44:04.

reasons. The main reason is that the truth recovery minimises the grief

:44:05.:44:12.

and injury experienced here over the last 40 years and longer. We would

:44:13.:44:18.

argue that are much more rigorous evidence -based look at the past

:44:19.:44:23.

that can be gleaned through the political archives and the

:44:24.:44:28.

government archives and through the marked and unmarked graves of this

:44:29.:44:34.

country and beyond. That would provide us with the opportunity to

:44:35.:44:38.

recover truth but also respect and acknowledge the suffering that has

:44:39.:44:42.

come before the Good Friday Agreement. You were talking about a

:44:43.:45:01.

commission of historic recognition. That sounds very academic. It is

:45:02.:45:07.

academic. Consulting with the archives gives an opportunity to

:45:08.:45:14.

bring together at much more robust and Regulus and principled approach

:45:15.:45:26.

to the past. -- rigorous. Does that mean reducing the role of the

:45:27.:45:32.

politicians? It means opening the archives held in London, Belfast and

:45:33.:45:38.

Dublin. Opening those archives and allowing investigation, assessment

:45:39.:45:43.

and analysis. It means then bringing that analysis or in a much more

:45:44.:45:54.

rigorous way than it has been used. It sounds like a robust academic

:45:55.:45:57.

approach rather than an emotional approach, might that be a good idea?

:45:58.:46:05.

We certainly have to find some way of drawing the elliptical line under

:46:06.:46:12.

hot we were dealing with in the past. -- drawing at political line

:46:13.:46:19.

under what we were dealing with in the past. Has that been helpful in

:46:20.:46:25.

the healing process? I would suggest not. We need to look at what we can

:46:26.:46:32.

do on the ground to help people, to make it there until -- personalised

:46:33.:46:36.

and individual. That is what I would like to see. My concern is that when

:46:37.:46:46.

you look at the archives in London, Belfast and Dublin, what do you do

:46:47.:46:52.

with other main participants in the Troubles, the IRA, the Loyalist

:46:53.:47:01.

paramilitaries. You are still in this 2-tier approach. I still do not

:47:02.:47:07.

see how you get round drawing a political line but carrying on the

:47:08.:47:09.

good work on the ground with victims. How would that work? Other

:47:10.:47:20.

archives would either not be open or do not exist. We would speak to

:47:21.:47:40.

people and have word of mouth. Is there something of interest to you

:47:41.:47:47.

in what we are hearing? I certainly think the academic view is important

:47:48.:47:51.

but we need to move away from a controlled narrative at the top. It

:47:52.:47:56.

needs to be a democratic history and it is not one narrative will stop it

:47:57.:48:01.

needs to come from how people experienced it. We need all of those

:48:02.:48:09.

rather than trying to narrow it down will stop thank you all very much

:48:10.:48:19.

indeed. The editor of the Ballymena Guardian and the Irish News are with

:48:20.:48:27.

me. The notion of opening archives and approaching this in at different

:48:28.:48:32.

way, the past is likely to be the most difficult challenge. What you

:48:33.:48:43.

think? Some of the material in the archives might not be suitable. We

:48:44.:48:50.

have to recognise that we have official government security files

:48:51.:48:57.

which are not necessarily connected to the paramilitary organisations so

:48:58.:49:00.

there will be talk of collusion. There are going to be notifying of

:49:01.:49:07.

any worth which will move the whole process or. It is a very difficult

:49:08.:49:17.

and complex area. It is clearly determined to be an inclusive

:49:18.:49:24.

process. People have different ideas about the past and how it should be

:49:25.:49:30.

dealt with. I would be optimistic that it will be teased out with this

:49:31.:49:37.

current process. What about the smaller parties, there have been 400

:49:38.:49:42.

submissions from civil society and other interest groups. Is that part

:49:43.:49:47.

of the solution or does it ultimately come down to the two key

:49:48.:49:57.

parties? We have to hear from as many voices as possible. The two

:49:58.:50:02.

main parties made a mess of the process. It does come down to the

:50:03.:50:07.

two main groups but there has been some talk about a referendum. We

:50:08.:50:11.

need to be cautious about that. Unless it was worded very carefully

:50:12.:50:20.

there is a danger of a circadian headcount which could be damaging in

:50:21.:50:25.

terms of community relations. Politicians have not behaved well

:50:26.:50:31.

over flags, parades and the past. At wider engagement has to be a

:50:32.:50:37.

prospect. It would be great if a sense of mature ditty -- mid surety

:50:38.:50:50.

descends on Stormont. The more views that are on the table the better. I

:50:51.:50:55.

am not quite sure what the endgame is here. Well there be deals with

:50:56.:51:04.

flags, parades and the cast? Is it all or nothing or will progress be

:51:05.:51:15.

made on each aspect? Do you get a sense at all that there will be some

:51:16.:51:22.

resolution by Christmas? It is possible but these issues have been

:51:23.:51:33.

with us forever. There was a good solution which did not down so well

:51:34.:51:37.

at City Hall but surely there is a way of coming round? We could get

:51:38.:51:46.

over parade but the past might take longer. Now, their grandfather was

:51:47.:52:00.

one of the most famous men in Northern Ireland, Edward Carson 's

:52:01.:52:06.

granddaughters were special guests at Stormont. We have always known he

:52:07.:52:19.

was responsible for Northern Ireland existing at all. Every one goes, in

:52:20.:52:32.

places like South Africa, the say grandfather could have been shot as

:52:33.:52:42.

a traitor. This was not really what he wanted? He was eight union man

:52:43.:52:52.

and he wanted Ireland as a whole, that was not how it was to be. I

:52:53.:53:01.

have heard your father was a product of Lord Carson's first marriage. He

:53:02.:53:11.

described them as a wrong lot. I read that too. There were four of

:53:12.:53:22.

them, two girls and two boys. We never knew him. You don't think he

:53:23.:53:29.

directed that comment at your own father, do you? He could have done.

:53:30.:53:40.

He was very much at practical joker. Have you found today overwhelming?

:53:41.:53:46.

Very interesting. Saying we have seen things we have only read about.

:53:47.:53:57.

Edward Carson's granddaughters speaking to our reporter on their

:53:58.:54:09.

first visit to Northern Ireland. It was said there are hopes for a

:54:10.:54:24.

referendum to be held in 2014. I am joined now by the Irish affairs

:54:25.:54:28.

editor. This seems to be a key policy in the government. It is a

:54:29.:54:41.

key policy along with the abortion legislation. Same-sex marriage has

:54:42.:54:49.

been described as a human rights issue. It is very much the key

:54:50.:54:58.

message for Labour. A referendum will be held. What we are less

:54:59.:55:05.

likely to get next week is the dominant party in the quality and

:55:06.:55:10.

telling us where they stand in general. What we are even less

:55:11.:55:15.

likely to get is a potential date for the referendum. We have heard it

:55:16.:55:24.

denied that the Labour Party is split on the matter. How big a job

:55:25.:55:30.

might he have keeping his party together? He may try to get himself

:55:31.:55:37.

personally out of any difficulty. It has been very difficult because he

:55:38.:55:44.

lost seven Parliamentary members when he pushed through abortion

:55:45.:55:51.

legislation. It was very divisive. He was bruised by the fact he has

:55:52.:55:56.

already lost two referendum in the life of this government. What he may

:55:57.:56:03.

do, even if he decides to hold a referendum, he has been very coy

:56:04.:56:09.

about where he stands on the issue but what he may do is hold a neutral

:56:10.:56:15.

position within the party and allowed people within the party to

:56:16.:56:21.

hold the own views. The women who are being discussed, whose lives

:56:22.:56:26.

were being affected, were not very vocal but there are several members

:56:27.:56:31.

of the Parliamentary party who are openly gay and it would be much more

:56:32.:56:42.

difficult for able to oppose that. We have had some important steps.

:56:43.:56:47.

Three years ago we introduced civil partnership which granted marriage

:56:48.:56:53.

style rights on issues such as tax and social welfare but what it left

:56:54.:56:59.

out was the legal start is, the legal relationship for same-sex

:57:00.:57:06.

couples and their children. The government may attempt to resolve

:57:07.:57:12.

that by producing legislation in advance of the referendum. Perhaps

:57:13.:57:20.

politically to see themselves the type of advice on abortion

:57:21.:57:28.

legislation they might agree to hold a referendum. What about the

:57:29.:57:34.

timescale in terms of clarifying what might or might not happen? If

:57:35.:57:41.

there were to be a referendum when would that be? Some wanted to be run

:57:42.:57:48.

with next year's local and European elections when you might have a

:57:49.:57:55.

better chance of a turnout. If it is pushed out into late 2015 you are

:57:56.:58:00.

then running into a general election. I think we would be

:58:01.:58:08.

unforgiving if the decision to have the referendum was held but not

:58:09.:58:15.

until a general election. Now let us pause the fleet. -- let us pause

:58:16.:58:33.

briefly. I carried a thermometer with me to calculate the mood. A

:58:34.:58:42.

ball and was sent to the secretary of state. For me the fact it had my

:58:43.:58:49.

name on it was not a significant issue. I was just doing my job. And

:58:50.:59:07.

civil servants. We must not worry that civil servants do not take sick

:59:08.:59:18.

days. And Tony Blair's spin doctor. Pushing and one below. -- pushing

:59:19.:59:30.

and envelope. Now a final few thoughts from my guests. That letter

:59:31.:59:37.

bomb addressed to the secretary of state was the latest device of its

:59:38.:59:42.

kind to be made safe. There was a pipe bomb sent to the police. The

:59:43.:59:52.

security situation obviously remains a big concern. A threat remains

:59:53.:59:59.

high. Politicians have been in the firing line on the number of

:00:00.:00:05.

occasions. In fairness to them, they have stood firm and are determined

:00:06.:00:12.

to get on with their own jobs and attending to democracy. It has not

:00:13.:00:20.

gone away, that is for sure. Now it has not what it is no coherent

:00:21.:00:28.

elliptical strategy again. There is a danger that these devices could

:00:29.:00:36.

come through. As we look ahead to what could be a very difficult

:00:37.:00:48.

business period they are worried if one get through. The security cost

:00:49.:00:57.

has to be taken into consideration, people being forced away from the

:00:58.:01:04.

city centre. Some of the figures have been discussed and they are

:01:05.:01:11.

substantially different. At the end of the day it is a survey but if you

:01:12.:01:16.

take into account the security costs, it is a massive development.

:01:17.:01:29.

You had mentioned a figure with a reference to the flags. What is your

:01:30.:01:35.

opinion on what should happen during a busy business season? Many are

:01:36.:01:43.

literally keeping the wolf from the door at the minute. Some businesses

:01:44.:01:51.

did go to the wall last time. I think it is important that the

:01:52.:01:55.

traders do get the normal Christmas this year.

:01:56.:01:57.

traders do get the normal Christmas Thank you for coming,

:01:58.:01:58.

traders do get the normal Christmas this year. Thank

:01:59.:01:58.

traders do get the normal Christmas Thank you for coming, great to see

:01:59.:02:10.

you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's relationship with Unite and other

:02:11.:02:18.

issues all to be discussed in the Week Ahead and we're joined now by

:02:19.:02:30.

the shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna. First I would like to get

:02:31.:02:34.

your reaction to the interview I did earlier with the General Secretary

:02:35.:02:37.

of the union Unite - Len McCluskey. Let's look at what he said. This is

:02:38.:02:40.

a trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all of the

:02:41.:02:44.

demands and the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, are you telling me

:02:45.:02:49.

they are not the conservative mouthpiece in the media? They are

:02:50.:02:53.

laying traps for Ed Miliband and he should not fall into them. Though it

:02:54.:02:59.

is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey denies a lot of the allegations put,

:03:00.:03:05.

but let me be clear in an industrial dispute, the use of aggressive or

:03:06.:03:11.

intimidatory tactics by either side is totally unacceptable. Do you

:03:12.:03:15.

think it is wrong for Unite to send its members to the homes of

:03:16.:03:20.

managers? I don't know what happened in that particular case, but I think

:03:21.:03:25.

you should keep people 's families out of these things and if you are

:03:26.:03:29.

doing something that can upset particularly children, that is a bad

:03:30.:03:33.

thing. I know he denied a number of things you put to him. We now know

:03:34.:03:40.

some of the content of Labour 's own report into what happened at Falkirk

:03:41.:03:45.

and they found all sorts of things - forgery, coercion, trickery and even

:03:46.:03:48.

that their own investigation was being thwarted by Unite. What should

:03:49.:04:01.

Labour do next? I have not read the report. We are told that the latest

:04:02.:04:10.

allegations that have been made is something that the police are

:04:11.:04:13.

looking into so that is not something I think would be

:04:14.:04:24.

appropriate for me to comment on. We learned Labour Party members in the

:04:25.:04:28.

Falkirk constituency have complained to the leader of the Scottish party

:04:29.:04:33.

about a lack of action by the Labour Party on what happened in Falkirk. I

:04:34.:04:44.

am not part of the Scottish party and that is news to me. But the

:04:45.:04:47.

police have indicated they are looking at the new information that

:04:48.:04:51.

has come to light. It is a bit like the 1980s and there was an

:04:52.:04:55.

electrifying moment when Neil Kinnock took on the militant

:04:56.:05:00.

tendency in Bournemouth in 1985. Ed Miliband has sort of tried to take

:05:01.:05:05.

on the Unite union, but it has not worked. Does then not need to be an

:05:06.:05:12.

electrifying moment for Ed Miliband? Your own paper has praised him for

:05:13.:05:16.

seeking to address the issues we have in politics and the

:05:17.:05:20.

disconnection from people. In many respects the situation in Falkirk

:05:21.:05:26.

categorises the process of further ongoing change where we are trying

:05:27.:05:30.

to establish a better relationship with individual trade union members.

:05:31.:05:38.

In parts of my constituency, some of the most deprived parts, we had

:05:39.:05:41.

people queueing round the block to vote. I do not think the issue is

:05:42.:05:47.

that people are not political, but they have never felt so far from

:05:48.:05:52.

party politics as they do now and that is why Ed Miliband announced

:05:53.:05:56.

this big chains about how we do things in the Labour Party, so we

:05:57.:06:00.

change structures in the Labour Party that were set up in the 20th

:06:01.:06:05.

century. The reform of the way in which we connect and our

:06:06.:06:10.

relationship with the union puts us in a good position because we have

:06:11.:06:14.

this relationship between the 3 million working people who ensure

:06:15.:06:25.

our public services function. At Grangemouth INEOS stood up to

:06:26.:06:30.

unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk Labour rolled over to the Unite

:06:31.:06:36.

union. I do not agree with that. I'd just explained the reason. I do not

:06:37.:06:44.

think it is fair to ask people to give evidence in an enquiry on the

:06:45.:06:50.

basis of the report will be confidential and then to publish it

:06:51.:06:55.

after. But if somebody is trying to take over a Labour constituency to

:06:56.:07:01.

send an MP of their choice to our Parliament, that should not be

:07:02.:07:07.

secret, that should be public. Ed Miliband acted very decisively. That

:07:08.:07:12.

constituency party is still in special measures as I understand it.

:07:13.:07:18.

This idea that somehow the Unite union runs the Labour Party, they do

:07:19.:07:24.

not. The special measures mean according to Eric Joyce, that an

:07:25.:07:30.

ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the meeting. I am interested in the Tory

:07:31.:07:38.

suggestion that they would offer free Tory party membership to union

:07:39.:07:42.

members. I then moving onto your turf? We do not know exactly all the

:07:43.:07:50.

facts and the truth of the allegations that have been made. On

:07:51.:07:59.

your point I think it is healthy the Conservatives are looking to recruit

:08:00.:08:04.

trade union members. A lot of their rhetoric is very negative in respect

:08:05.:08:12.

of trade unions. If you look at Unison a third of the members vote

:08:13.:08:18.

Conservative. In Unite union some of their members vote Tory. I think

:08:19.:08:22.

trade unions have a lot to bring to our country. It is one of the things

:08:23.:08:28.

many up and down the country will find very frustrating, a lot of the

:08:29.:08:34.

good work that unions do if it gets tarnished with all the negative

:08:35.:08:37.

stuff you see... Unite are working in partnership with GM and the

:08:38.:08:43.

senior management in Ellesmere Port and the government ensured that we

:08:44.:08:48.

kept that plant open. That gets overlooked by all of this. Do you

:08:49.:08:56.

not think the bolshie behaviour from unions are motivated not by

:08:57.:09:01.

strength, but by weakness. Unite know they cannot paralyse the

:09:02.:09:05.

country in the way their forebears used to be able to do. Their

:09:06.:09:10.

penetration rates in the private sector is 11%. The union movement is

:09:11.:09:16.

weaker than it was before I was born. Some of that truck killers and

:09:17.:09:20.

bad behaviour either death spasms of their movement rather than something

:09:21.:09:25.

that is motivated by the fact they can't paralyse the country. You have

:09:26.:09:34.

two increase the membership. But there is an issue about the public

:09:35.:09:39.

perception of trade unions. It is right they should be a voice of

:09:40.:09:44.

protest and anger and stand up for their members when it is necessary.

:09:45.:09:49.

But people join unions for their aspiration. The unions do a lot so

:09:50.:09:55.

that people can move up in their workplace. That profile needs to

:09:56.:10:00.

come across as strongly as the protest part. I want to move on to

:10:01.:10:07.

business. The head of the CBI has said that Labour's pro-enterprise

:10:08.:10:14.

credentials have suffered a setback. He said that in relation to Ed

:10:15.:10:20.

Miliband's speech. I was on the radio earlier. If you look at the

:10:21.:10:24.

things in the speech, some of that was going to be uncomfortable for

:10:25.:10:28.

some of the countries and they tend to be companies represented by the

:10:29.:10:32.

CBI, like energy companies, like land developers, a lot of the big

:10:33.:10:39.

business lose out from is not doing the corporate tax cut. The energy

:10:40.:10:46.

freeze is going to help over 2.4 million businesses that have been

:10:47.:10:51.

hit by high energy bills. The business community has said we had

:10:52.:10:55.

to bring the public sector finances back into balance. That is why we

:10:56.:11:01.

decided to switch the money being used to reduce corporation tax and

:11:02.:11:07.

use that to help a much greater variety of businesses by doing a

:11:08.:11:11.

business rate cut. It is all pro enterprise. They also seem to be

:11:12.:11:20.

critical of your new idea of a living wage. They are not critical.

:11:21.:11:26.

It would not be compulsory, but there would be a tax credit if they

:11:27.:11:32.

paid it. It is good for business because if people are earning more

:11:33.:11:37.

than they are more productive. It is good for the employee and good for

:11:38.:11:43.

us as well because it means we are not having to subsidise people to be

:11:44.:11:50.

paid to the extent we have with tax credits and benefits. Everybody

:11:51.:11:58.

benefits from this. We all know after 2009 we need to have bold

:11:59.:12:05.

change. Does Labour paid a living wage? We have got over 20 of our

:12:06.:12:12.

councils signed up to doing so and we have made commitments in respect

:12:13.:12:18.

to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party pay it? I believe so. Would it not

:12:19.:12:27.

be worth checking? Do you get a living wage? Yes, of course I do. I

:12:28.:12:41.

understand we paid a living wage. What does it feel like for Tristram

:12:42.:12:46.

Hunt who has taken over your mantle as Labour's next leader? Is that a

:12:47.:12:53.

relieved or are you angry? He is one of my best friends and at the end of

:12:54.:12:58.

the day if we got obsessed with this soap opera stuff we would never get

:12:59.:13:03.

anything done and we are working together to make sure we have got

:13:04.:13:11.

the right skills in our workforce. That is all for today. The daily

:13:12.:13:18.

politics is on all week. I will be here again next weekend at 12:25pm

:13:19.:13:27.

after the Remembrance Day service at the Cenotaph. Remember if it is

:13:28.:13:30.

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:31.:13:37.

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