Browse content similar to 10/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
the war path over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be | :01:01. | :01:08. | |
talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with | :01:13. | :01:22. | |
some balls. Stay. It is good fun for the guys. | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
And coming up here: Alasdair the guys. What | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
And coming up here: Alasdair McDonnell joins me to discuss his | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
attack on the DUP and Sinn Fein and moving into opposition. Plus, the | :01:32. | :01:33. | |
Tanaiste, Eamon Gilmore, on engaging with Northern Ireland. Join me | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
later. row over the super sewer rumbles on. | :01:36. | :01:46. | |
And with me, fresh from their success at yesterday's Star Wars | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
First, the talks with Iran in Geneva. They ended last night | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
without agreement despite hopes of a breakthrough. America and its allies | :02:04. | :02:14. | |
didn't think Iran was prepared to go far enough to freeze its nuclear | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
programme. But some progress has been made and there's to be another | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
meeting in ten days' time, though at a lower level. The Foreign | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
Secretary, William Hague, had this to say a little earlier. On the | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
question of, or will it happen in the next few weeks? There is a good | :02:27. | :02:35. | |
chance of that. We will be trying again on 20th, 21st of November and | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
negotiators will be trying again. We will keep an enormous amount of | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
energy and persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal | :02:47. | :02:54. | |
which will please everyone? No, it will not. Compromises will need to | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
be made. I had discussions with Israeli ministers yesterday and put | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
the case for the kind of deal we are looking | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
the case for the kind of deal we are interests of the whole world, | :03:10. | :03:10. | |
including interests of the whole world, | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
the world, to reach a diplomatic agreement we can be confident in in | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
this issue. This otherwise will threaten the world with nuclear | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
proliferation and conflict in the future. The interesting thing about | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
this is that it seems future. The interesting thing about | :03:28. | :03:36. | |
prepared to go far enough over the Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
it is building. The people who took the toughest line - the French. | :03:42. | :03:53. | |
France has always had a pretty tough line on Iran. They see it as a | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
disruptive influence in Lebanon. I am reasonably optimistic a deal will | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
be done later this month when the talks reconvene. Western economic | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
sanctions have had such an impact on Iran domestic league. They have | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
pushed inflation up to 40%. Dashes-macro domestically. The new | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
president had a campaign pledge saying, I will deal with sanctions. | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
I actually think, by the end of this year, we will see progress in these | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
talks. Should we be optimistic? The next round of talks will be at | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to | :04:55. | :05:04. | |
go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they | :05:05. | :05:13. | |
cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows | :05:14. | :05:23. | |
the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November | :06:37. | :06:45. | |
the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again - you | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment. | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had | :07:48. | :07:56. | |
to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly. | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France. | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has | :09:30. | :09:39. | |
tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father. | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all. | :10:25. | :10:32. | |
There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this. We | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
world and they will create jobs. The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi | :10:51. | :10:59. | |
and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this | :11:13. | :11:22. | |
a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI, | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does | :12:27. | :12:36. | |
repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1975, | :12:48. | :12:56. | |
the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader. | :13:39. | :13:51. | |
-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am | :13:52. | :14:08. | |
not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum. | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29 | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is | :14:29. | :14:39. | |
technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open | :14:40. | :14:50. | |
door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29 | :14:51. | :15:01. | |
million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29 | :15:02. | :15:11. | |
million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70 | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say | :15:30. | :15:37. | |
that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 74 | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your | :15:51. | :16:01. | |
anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things. | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen. | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
for you, it will stir things up? If you say to people in poor countries, | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system, | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage. | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September, | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and | :18:19. | :18:27. | |
character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it, | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who | :18:58. | :19:06. | |
repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the | :19:18. | :19:26. | |
bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
incentivised by the bedroom tax, so basically if you are a council | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms, | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property. | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96% of | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
spare bedroom, they are hit by ?700 a year extra to pay and that is | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that? | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working. | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
come off benefits, of the 233,000 affected, it's about 11%. These | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
work, or who find work where it's low-paid and need help with their | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood, | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable, | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
waited until you have got the independent research, that | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
independent research before they bought into effect something and | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
justification for it, which is people will move, is completely | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion -- | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well, | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off, we | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me | :24:27. | :24:28. | |
saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those... | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
But you're... All those who've won their seats against the | :25:24. | :25:25. | |
Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected, | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and | :25:35. | :25:41. | |
these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody, | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow? | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
rise with that amount of growth. What do you do then? We have not | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
people have and recognise that they are struggling with the | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership, | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that | :27:34. | :27:35. | |
decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living | :27:41. | :27:47. | |
standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line? | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National | :27:52. | :27:53. | |
Health Service, about the problems that there is in A, which caused | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
-- are caused by the organisation. I can put forward other lines. All | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
right. Let me ask you one other question If no newspapers have | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
signed up to the Government-backed Labour-backed Royal Charter on press | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
regular lace by 2015 and it looks like the way things are going none | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
will have, if you are in power, will a Labour Government legislate to | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
make them? They don't have to sign up to the Royal Charter, that's not | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
the system. What the Royal Charter does is create a recogniser and | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
basically says it's for the newspapers to set up their own | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
regulator. They are doing that. My question is... Let me finish. If | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
they decide to have nothing to do with the Royal Charter that was | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
decided in Miliband's office in the wee small hours, will you pass | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
legislation to make them? The newspapers are currently setting up | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
what they call... I know that, Harriet Harman. Just let me finish. | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
OK. Because the newspapers are setting up the independent Press | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
Standards Organisation. Right. If it is independent, as they say it is, | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
then the recogniser will simply say, we recognise that this is | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
independent and the whole point is that, in the past when there's been | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
skaen deals a tend press have really turned people's lives upside down | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
and the press have said OK we'll sort things out, leave it to us, | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
then they have sorted things out but a few years later they have slipped | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
back, all this recogniser will do is check it once every three years and | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
say yes, you have got an independent system and it's remained independent | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
and therefore that is the guarantee things won't slip back. Very | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
interesting. Thank you for that. That's really interesting that if | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
they get their act right, you won't force the alternative on them. We | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
want the system as set forward by Leveson which is not statute and | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
direct regulation. I want to stick with the press because I want to | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
ask, is this a British institution or an out-of-date image for a by | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been dividing the nation since it first | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
appeared way back in 1970. That's 43 years ago. Harriet Harman's called | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
for it to be removed, so we sent Adam out to ask whether the topless | :30:08. | :30:24. | |
photographs should stay or go. We have asked people if page three | :30:25. | :30:36. | |
should stay or go. Page three. What do you think? Nothing wrong with it | :30:37. | :30:46. | |
at all. I think it is cheap and exploits women. It is a family | :30:47. | :30:58. | |
newspaper. Should it stay or go? Go. I will look like the bad guy. It | :30:59. | :31:08. | |
should go. You have changed your mind. It is free choice. Girls do | :31:09. | :31:18. | |
not have to be photographed. Old men get the paper just for that. Know | :31:19. | :31:31. | |
when your age does that? Not really. Dashes-macro know what your age. | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
Page three girls, should they stay or go? I am not bothered. There are | :31:37. | :31:46. | |
other ways of getting noticed. Page three of the Sun newspaper every | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40 | :31:51. | :31:59. | |
years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been | :32:00. | :32:07. | |
long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
the day when they get rid of it? Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I | :32:32. | :32:44. | |
think the council should do something about their car parks! | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
Mother nature, the human body. It should stay. Is some people like it, | :32:51. | :32:59. | |
that is fine. I have nothing against it. You know what has surprised me, | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
lots of women saying it should stay. Maybe they are seeing it as | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
empowering. As I have a baby daughter in there, I am happy to see | :33:13. | :33:20. | |
it go. Imagine my grandad opening up his paper and they're being my bats! | :33:21. | :33:29. | |
It should go. There is nothing wrong with it. He wants it to go. What | :33:30. | :33:37. | |
about people who think that page three should be banned? Idiots. Do | :33:38. | :33:46. | |
you know a girl called Lacey, aged 22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. | :33:47. | :33:55. | |
I do not know her as a person that I have heard she is nice. What about | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
her decision to be on page three? Nothing to lose. Do you think she | :34:03. | :34:10. | |
has made Bedford proud? That is not hard. What have we learned? More | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
people want page three to stay down for it to go. Most people do not | :34:18. | :34:27. | |
really seem to care, do they? You have heard a range of views. I am | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
not arguing it should be banned. I have not argued for it to be banned | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
but I have disapproved of it since the 1970s. You do not think it | :34:40. | :34:51. | |
should be banned? I do not think there should be dictating content | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
but I do think, if you arrive from outer space in this country in | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
21st-century Britain, and asked yourself what was the role of women | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
in society... To stand in their knickers and nothing else, I think | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
women have more to aspire to than to be able to take their clothes off in | :35:10. | :35:20. | |
public. The sun no longer has the circulation, or the political | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
importance, that it had in the 1980s when page three was at its height. | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
Aren't people just voting with their feet anyway? The market is sorting | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
this out. Half the number of people buy it now than they did 20 years | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
ago. Until the time the sun does not have page three any more, I am | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
entitled to my view that it is outdated and wrong. I am happy to | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
establish that you do not want to ban it. What should happen? Should | :35:53. | :36:03. | |
people boycott the paper? I have never implied or said it should be | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
banned. I have always been forthright. Should people boycott | :36:09. | :36:15. | |
the paper? I have not called for a boycott. The women's movement, of | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
which I am part, and this is not about politicians censoring the | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
press. I am part of the movement which says women can do better than | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
taking off their clothes and being in their knickers in the newspapers. | :36:32. | :36:38. | |
Why don't you do something about it? I am doing something about it by | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
saying it is outdated. I am not doing anything more about it. Should | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
people buy the paper as long as there is a page three? Would you | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
like to say to viewers, as long as page three is in the sand, you | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
should not buy it? Dashes-macro be Son. I am saying, wake up to what | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
the role of women in society should be, which is more than page three. | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
If they changed it in Australia, which is where Rupert Murdoch came | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
from, why can they not change it in this country? You're watching the | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes... I'll be talking | :37:25. | :37:26. | |
Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. What | :37:27. | :37:40. | |
now for the SDLP as the issue of moving into opposition appears to | :37:41. | :37:48. | |
divide the party? If I had my way, we would be in opposition by | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
Christmas. We had 60 years in opposition and we know what it is | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
like. The party leader, Alasdair McDonnell, joins me live in the | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
studio. Plus, he's described claims the Irish government has become | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
disengaged from the political process here as petty and unhelpful. | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
I'll be joined by the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs and Tanaiste, | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
Eamon Gilmore. To discuss all of that and more, the journalist and | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
author Susan McKay and political blogger Alan Meban are my guests | :38:14. | :38:15. | |
today. Hundreds of SDLP delegates gathered | :38:16. | :38:24. | |
in Armagh this weekend for the party's annual conference. The party | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
leader claimed the DUP and Sinn Fein had let people down, delivering bad | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
politics and poor government, and the SDLP insists it can do better. | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
But will the voters agree? Our political correspondent, Martina | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
Purdy, was at the conference. There are some flashing images in her | :38:41. | :38:49. | |
report. A hug for luck from his daughter, but our voters ready to | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
embrace Alasdair McDonnell and the SDLP? He insist they are, claiming | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
the DUP and Sinn Fein have failed to deliver. People feel badly let down. | :39:00. | :39:10. | |
A lot of people out there, the DUP and Sinn Fein by the parties of | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
disappointment, false promise, of poor government and bad politics. | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
The SDLP leader blamed Eulas for the flanks deadlock and told Republicans | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
the shocking revelations about state collusion with loyalist | :39:27. | :39:28. | |
paramilitaries were no excuse for a violent past. The IRA must tell the | :39:29. | :39:35. | |
truth as well. No IRA atrocity can ever justify Unionist politicians | :39:36. | :39:42. | |
dismissing collusion. Such talk is insulting to victims, survivors and | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
is insulting to the hundreds of honest RUC officers who hunted down | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
loyalist killers as well as IRA killers. As for the SDLP, he told | :39:53. | :40:00. | |
the conference it was ready to confound critics who claimed its | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
best days are behind it. Together, we shall overcome. Alistair | :40:05. | :40:12. | |
McDonnell seized the leadership of the SDLP with a promise to rebuild, | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
and the test of that will come in six months time and European and | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
local government elections. He says success will depend on a new | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
generation of voters, a generation very much in evidence. I joined the | :40:26. | :40:32. | |
SDLP this year because I am a very strong socialist and I was | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
interested in joining a party that was committed to being against | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
balance. When you see the number of motivated people around me today, | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
you can see they are on the rise. This MLA help improve the party's | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
vote and Ward the SDLP must not change course by going into | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
opposition. If you go into opposition without having a clear | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
strategy, to work from a position of influence, you cannot go into the | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
political wilderness. It is a view echoed by one of the party's | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
bounders. No, we had what over 60 years in opposition and know what it | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
is like. This thing is imperfect in the way it is being led but we will | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
stick in there and we take on the issues and the people who are making | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
the issues. But the deputy leader thinks differently. So does the | :41:34. | :41:42. | |
leader for Southdown. That is what a democratic system is based on, | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
opposition leading for change, and if I had my way we would be in | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
opposition by Christmas. Alex Attwood, the party's candidate for | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
Europe, incest the SDLP will prevail. The leader of the SDLP, | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
Alasdair McDonnell, is with me now. You talked about the core values of | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
the SDLP being reconciliation, social justice and prosperity. It's | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
a catchy headline, but what does it actually mean? It means we believe | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
there has to be reconciliation between the people and to define | :42:15. | :42:22. | |
that further, there has to be a reconciliation or a coming together | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
with the North, between the north and South of Ireland and between | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
Ireland and Britain, and old animosities and hostilities must be | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
left behind. It is clear that people don't reconcile easily and we need | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
to create a tolerance and a space for a accommodation and then embrace | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
the change and indifference. What will the SDLP do to facilitate | :42:49. | :42:55. | |
that? I suspect party leaders would disagree with the language. Attack | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
would not disagree, but what will the SDLP do to achieve at? I | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
continuously reach out to people in all walks of life, church leaders | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
and give them the benefit of support, and there is no quick fix. | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
We have been stuck with this for a number of years. There should have | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
been a more robust reconciliation. We depend on the government for a | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
shared integration strategy that has not appeared, or an effective one | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
has not appeared. We have to bring down the barriers between people, I | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
do not want people to be all the same but we have to bring down some | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
barriers that have been thrown up over the last 40 years. You talk | :43:42. | :43:48. | |
about a prosperity process. What is the meat on the bone as far as that | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
is concerned? Where does the money come from? The Irish government does | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
not have much in the British government has made clear everything | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
we get will come from the block grant. You can steal without | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
effectively in isolation. There are young people and we saw plenty of | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
that in loyalist protests last year, young people have no hope in this | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
city. There are young people with no hope, high levels of unemployment | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
and immigration. We have talked about peace and the political | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
process but what we have to do is ensure there are job opportunities | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
for people and that the ordinary people out there get some benefit | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
and derive some benefit from peace. We were promised by the various | :44:35. | :44:42. | |
prime ministers that they would be a fund here, we had all the debate | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
around corporation tax yet nothing has come to pass, there has been no | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
special funding initiative to pump our economy here and boost our | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
economy to a situation where people feel secure. I am deeply concerned | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
about young people on the margins across our society who have no hope | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
and to feel that peace has not brought them much benefit. The issue | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
of opposition seems to be one that is causing a problem to your party. | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
There are mixed messages, demands from some in the party to move into | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
opposition are louder, Margaret Ritchie said the party should be in | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
opposition by Christmas, others like Seamus Mallon and Patsy McGlone said | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
you have to stay and change things from the inside. What is the SDLP's | :45:32. | :45:38. | |
formal position? We are an open, democratic political party, we don't | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
take dictation from the top and I don't want to dictate from the top. | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
This issue has been raised over the last 18 months and there are people | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
in frustration at times who think we would be better disassociation | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
ourselves from the poor government and the failures of the Executive. | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
Do you agree with them? Should you consider our position? There are | :46:02. | :46:09. | |
discussions in the party, I have produced a bit of paper but it is in | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
a very early stage, I have asked others to produce their ideas and | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
over time, the SDLP will come to terms with this, but I am large, we | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
have gone into politics and I agree much with what Seamus Mallon said, | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
we had years in opposition, we went into politics to be constructive and | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
play our part. So your gut feeling is you should stay there are? A week | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
is a long time in politics and you cannot anticipate what stupidity is | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
down the road. What would be the issue that would force you out of | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
government? I cannot anticipate a breaking point down the road, but if | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
the DUP and Sinn Fein continue the route of exclusion where the rest of | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
us are pushed to the margins, where there is little or no consultation | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
on any issue, and a sort of thing that people are very angry about and | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
why it has surfaced again is planning. Would that be distraught | :47:09. | :47:15. | |
that breaks the camel's back? The planning Bill has annoyed the hell | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
out of people and people are saying there was a good planning Bill going | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
through but the public want to be consulted more Ireland planning | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
issues. Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness decided to throw a | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
torpedo in and end up turning a good planning Bill into a toxic Bill | :47:33. | :47:39. | |
where they were taking over control of big planning projects and riding | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
roughshod over ordinary people. But doesn't the SDLP have to take a bit | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
addition, shouldn't you as leaders say we are clear on this, if the | :47:50. | :47:52. | |
following happens we will government, because at the moment it | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
looks like you are not sure. Politics is the art of the | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
possible. Those circumstances have not arrived. I will not make wild | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
threats about leaving government or doing this or that, we will take | :48:08. | :48:15. | |
them as they arise. The danger is, we are in aid talks process at the | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
moment where we are trying to put some past issues to bed and we are | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
trying to deal with them and there is no point of trying to put a gun | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
to someone's head. You lost a broadside against the DUP and Sinn | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
Fein. They will continue to bully you eat as you will not do anything | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
about it tells you don't have a bottom line. That is not true. We | :48:39. | :48:45. | |
will see what they will do. They are pushing hard, aren't they? You are | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
guessing what they will do. We will push hard back and we will push hard | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
on the issues that matter to ordinary people. Whether be a deal | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
done as far as Richard Haass is concerned by Christmas? I think | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
there will be progress. Whether there is a deal done, we are keen | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
that the wider population, this started as a small thing, only a | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
subcommittee at Stormont, and we asked to get the whole public | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
consultation, something like 400 or 500 people. You are optimistic? I am | :49:22. | :49:29. | |
very optimistic. We will leave it there. Alistair MacDonald, thank you | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
for joining us. Now, the Assembly was back this week | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
after its half-term break. Let's take a look at the week gone past in | :49:37. | :49:46. | |
60 seconds with Gareth Gordon. A documentary on the period puts more | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
pressure on Gerry Adams. I had no act or part to play in the killing | :49:52. | :49:59. | |
or the burial. The party that brought this board are more | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
interested in covering up for their paedophile protecting President. | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
Edwin Poots turns it based on his gay blood bank into another attack | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
on Mr Adams and annoys Sinn Fein. I think the Minister's approach was | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
highly unprofessional. And the rule of the Attorney General is the size | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
by a former Stormont minister. A lot of people think the office has got | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
too big and it has gone into places where best not to go. And the | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
regional element minister rebuilds a liking for Lycra. Members were | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
discussing whether I was ready for racing myself in Lycra. I can tell | :50:41. | :50:42. | |
you that I am. Let's hear from our guests, Susan | :50:43. | :50:55. | |
McKay and Alan Meban. Picking up on what Alasdair McDonnell have to say, | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
the big issue as far as opposition for the SDLP is concerned seems to | :51:02. | :51:03. | |
be something the party has to deal with. There are divided issues. | :51:04. | :51:11. | |
Allen, do you accept that the party needs a definitive position? It is | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
something they have been talking about for the last two years, part | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
of the last leadership election, it came up again with Dolores Kelly and | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
this year Margaret Ritchie added, you need to have an internal | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
discussion to decide their strategy otherwise it will become like the | :51:30. | :51:37. | |
DUP and one of those -- like the UUP and drive them apart. My point was | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
the need to state their bottom line or the other parties will push | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
because they think they can get away with anything. You don't have to say | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
your bottom line out loud but you need to know what it is. Do you | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
think the SDLP knows what it's bottom line is? No, I think they are | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
hoping the planning Bill is not the bottom line but the only have one | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
minister and very little power to stand up and fight against the rest | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
was that it is a tricky problem for the party. Yes, I think in the | :52:11. | :52:17. | |
present circumstances where Sinn Fein has gone peaceful, it is | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
difficult for the SDLP to see what it is therefore because in many ways | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
Martin McGuinness sounds more like John Hume then Doctor McDonald, and | :52:26. | :52:33. | |
I think his speech was dull, it was too long, even in his interview | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
today he was clearly caught by the divisions within the party and that | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
just makes the party look weak and confused. There is obviously this | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
gap in the party where there is a generation missing, where there | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
wasn't a proper succession from the early party leaders are the John | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
Hume and Seamus Mallon generation, and now you have young people coming | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
in but not that middle-aged group of people who have been building their | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
positions firmly. Alan, we had that banner headline, reconciliation, | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
social justice, prosperity. It sounds good, it made it onto the | :53:11. | :53:17. | |
news, but what did it mean? There was very little substance that said | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
here are things we will do, things you will see on your doorstep, | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
little about putting money into people's wallops, it did not have | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
those specific things to sell to an electorate. And getting money from | :53:29. | :53:36. | |
the Republic is just unrealistic at the moment. We will talk to you | :53:37. | :53:42. | |
later. On this Remembrance Sunday, leading politicians from the | :53:43. | :53:44. | |
Republic have joined services here to honour the war dead. The | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
Taioseach, Enda Kenny, was in Enniskillen. And earlier this | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
morning, the Tanaiste and Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs joined | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
the Secretary of State and other dignitaries to lay a wreath at the | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
Cenotaph in Belfast. Eamon Gilmore is with me now. Thank you for | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
joining us. Has the public understanding of remembrance and the | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
wearing of the poppy changed in the Republic? I think it has. There is a | :54:09. | :54:17. | |
stronger sense that we need to commemorate our history together. | :54:18. | :54:25. | |
Over 200 people across the island of Ireland fought in the First World | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
War. By 1945, there were 50,000 people from the Republic fighting | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
fascism in the British uniform, and there is a strong sense we need all | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
of us, in our own way, to commemorate what people did and | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
these wars. Can I ask why you and the Taoiseach choose to come north | :54:48. | :54:50. | |
to take part in commemorations rather than fitting part in | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
commemorations in the Republic? We do have a day of commemoration in | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
July when we commemorate all the war dead. But today you were in the | :55:01. | :55:08. | |
North. Yes, we did this last year, we have done so again today because | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
we recognise there is a strong tradition of remembrance in Northern | :55:15. | :55:17. | |
Ireland and want to associate the arrows to Vermont with that. Can we | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
move on to broader politics? You have been criticised for not being | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
as fully engaged with the political process here as you might be a high | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
amongst others, Micheal Martin and other commentators like Brian Feeney | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
and Denis Bradley. Do you take those criticisms seriously? I think | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
criticism by opposition leaders in the South are just that, there has | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
been a tradition in the size that we would have an all-party approach to | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
Northern Ireland and I regret that Bain of oil appear to be playing it | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
for party advantage. -- Fianna Fail we have representatives in Northern | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
Ireland, both in Belfast and Armagh. I was here on Friday, the | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
North-South ministerial Council discussing issues relating to the | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
economy and health services, things that matter, I was here at the SDLP | :56:09. | :56:16. | |
conference with the Secretary of State and I am here today. You will | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
have heard Alasdair McDonnell say yesterday that any Richard Haass | :56:23. | :56:24. | |
deal that is forthcoming needs to be jointly guaranteed by the two | :56:25. | :56:33. | |
governments. You accept that? The two governments are the guarantors | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
of the agreements and we have to guarantee what emerges from the | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
house talks. I have met with Richard Haass on a number of occasions, I've | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
met last week in Dublin and previously in New York and we are | :56:47. | :56:53. | |
keeping in close contact, but he cannot deliver miracles. There has | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
to be engagement and I believe there is engagement either political | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
parties in Northern Ireland, and also by wider society because this | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
is not just a political process, it is also a process that business and | :57:07. | :57:13. | |
committee organisations and people in wider society need to be part of | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
this process. You agree that the sticking point in the process is | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
likely to be the past? That is the difficult issue to sort out? I think | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
it is important that agreement is reached on flags and parades and | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
that is important because of what we saw this summer and last year. The | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
issue of the past has to be addressed and they way has to be | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
found of dealing with the past because so many people in Northern | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
Ireland are attacked by the past and it continues to invade the political | :57:45. | :57:52. | |
process and discussions here. The plight of the Disappeared has been | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
at the top of the agenda because of the BBC RTE programme on Monday. Do | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
you think Gerry Adams has been damaged by the claim he was | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
responsible for the murder of Jean McConville? First we have to see the | :58:05. | :58:10. | |
bodies return. I met relatives of the Disappeared yesterday and today | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
and relatives of people affected by the atrocities described and they | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
need to have closure. I don't think there is a democracy in the world | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
where a programme of that kind was made about a political leader, the | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
leader would not have to address questions, but the immediate thing | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
is that the families get back the bodies and are able to conclude | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
their grieving. Thank you for joining us. Let's hear the final | :58:37. | :58:47. | |
thoughts of our commentators. Susan. I am pleased to hear the Tanaiste | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
talking in terms of the need for some kind of Comber fans of approach | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
to what happened in the past because it is every week now, some painful | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
scandal is emerging in relation to what happened to people, but it is | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
tremendously moving to see interviews with people who were | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
victims and as Eamon Gilmore said, the week before last we had victims | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
of collusion coming forward, last week we heard from families of the | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
Disappeared, but we knew about these families at the time that we signed | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
up to the Good Friday Agreement. We have known for a long time that the | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
accusation was out there that Gerry Adams was responsible. Nobody | :59:27. | :59:30. | |
believes Gerry Adams was not in the IRA, so if we don't deal with this | :59:31. | :59:37. | |
it will keep on coming back and it is intensely painful for the | :59:38. | :59:39. | |
families involved. We are being dishonest about it. We knew about | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
this when the Good Friday Agreement was signed. We need to move to the | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
next phase. Alan, you have a finger on the pulse of the political mood. | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
Do you think Gerry Adams was damaged? I don't think so, I think | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
it added to the material that suggests he is uncomfortable talking | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
about his past but I don't think it added anything new. He is a man who | :00:05. | :00:10. | |
things do not stick to, and if he says the same line, I don't think he | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
will change, I don't think the programme damaged him but I don't | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
think it helped them. Do you think he will continue to lead Sinn Fein? | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
I think he will wait until a quiet moment and then slide away. He will | :00:25. | :00:26. | |
not let himself be pushed. more equipment so they can see | :00:27. | :00:28. | |
cyclists. Back to you, Andrew. We learned this week that no more | :00:29. | :00:42. | |
warships will be built at Portsmouth, the home of the Royal | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
Navy since the days of the Mary Rose and Francis Drake. But has the city | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
been sacrificed to save jobs on the Clyde in Scotland? Is England the | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
loser in an effort to keep the United Kingdom intact? Let's speak | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign for an English Parliament. Is | :00:57. | :01:08. | |
England the loser in this attempt to keep the | :01:09. | :01:08. | |
doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English | :01:09. | :01:17. | |
Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year? | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without | :01:53. | :02:00. | |
true representation. The union continues but it continues without | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year? We | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
or England can have a fair deal, within the union, that is brilliant. | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally. If | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes, | :02:35. | :02:43. | |
it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament, | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
British come English Parliament, the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly. | :04:06. | :04:14. | |
Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
to have their representation - representation that looks at | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system | :04:38. | :04:48. | |
might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you | :04:49. | :04:56. | |
want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
implement the process is to get their representation for England. I | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education. | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the | :05:20. | :05:21. | |
British government is trying desperately to save the union by | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two. | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde, | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
being in the United Kingdom and, under their breath, or in the case | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave! | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last | :08:00. | :08:01. | |
week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So, | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I | :08:13. | :08:21. | |
have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it? | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine? I | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around | :08:53. | :09:17. | |
you who took cocaine, they went... Is it better to confess or the that | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant | :09:53. | :10:03. | |
to be regarded as a rising star, turns out he was claiming to heat | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy | :10:28. | :10:35. | |
is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot, | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
cannot have a front line career. There is the politician confessing | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine. He | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the | :11:26. | :11:33. | |
line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him. | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
on this scheme in the benefiting from buying their homes | :11:45. | :11:46. | |
on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised. | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 2014, | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
will have two find an extra ?400 a month to pay them off. I would not | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this | :12:15. | :12:26. | |
trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very | :12:27. | :12:35. | |
careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates. | :12:52. | :13:01. | |
-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
about it, it is senior figures - people in senior economic positions. | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am. | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:34. | :13:44. |