10/11/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


10/11/2013

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news. With deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman, UKIP leader Nigel Farage, and a look at calls to remove the Sun's Page 3.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on

:00:37.:00:42.

the war path over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls

:00:43.:00:47.

the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls

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don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's

:00:53.:00:55.

Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage

:00:56.:01:00.

won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be

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talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page

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three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with

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some balls. Stay. It is good fun for the guys.

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And coming up here: Alasdair the guys. What

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And coming up here: Alasdair McDonnell joins me to discuss his

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attack on the DUP and Sinn Fein and moving into opposition. Plus, the

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Tanaiste, Eamon Gilmore, on engaging with Northern Ireland. Join me

:01:34.:01:35.

later. row over the super sewer rumbles on.

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And with me, fresh from their success at yesterday's Star Wars

:01:47.:01:50.

auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on

:01:51.:01:55.

your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.

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First, the talks with Iran in Geneva. They ended last night

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without agreement despite hopes of a breakthrough. America and its allies

:02:04.:02:14.

didn't think Iran was prepared to go far enough to freeze its nuclear

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programme. But some progress has been made and there's to be another

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meeting in ten days' time, though at a lower level. The Foreign

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Secretary, William Hague, had this to say a little earlier. On the

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question of, or will it happen in the next few weeks? There is a good

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chance of that. We will be trying again on 20th, 21st of November and

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negotiators will be trying again. We will keep an enormous amount of

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energy and persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal

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which will please everyone? No, it will not. Compromises will need to

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be made. I had discussions with Israeli ministers yesterday and put

:03:01.:03:05.

the case for the kind of deal we are looking

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the case for the kind of deal we are interests of the whole world,

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including interests of the whole world,

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the world, to reach a diplomatic agreement we can be confident in in

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this issue. This otherwise will threaten the world with nuclear

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proliferation and conflict in the future. The interesting thing about

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this is that it seems future. The interesting thing about

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prepared to go far enough over the Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor

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it is building. The people who took the toughest line - the French.

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France has always had a pretty tough line on Iran. They see it as a

:03:54.:04:00.

disruptive influence in Lebanon. I am reasonably optimistic a deal will

:04:01.:04:05.

be done later this month when the talks reconvene. Western economic

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sanctions have had such an impact on Iran domestic league. They have

:04:10.:04:16.

pushed inflation up to 40%. Dashes-macro domestically. The new

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president had a campaign pledge saying, I will deal with sanctions.

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I actually think, by the end of this year, we will see progress in these

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talks. Should we be optimistic? The next round of talks will be at

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official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which

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has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly

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defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to

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go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they

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cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows

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the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that

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with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the

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Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could

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still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are

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interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are

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trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who

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are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is

:06:00.:06:05.

that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is

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prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about

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Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who

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is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel

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Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card

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list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp

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rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November

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the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt

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to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the

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Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all

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of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again - you

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talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.

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The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have

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not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are

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doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures

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you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the

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Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a

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rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly

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opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel

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Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had

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to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it

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will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is

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now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you

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say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on

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Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband

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offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on

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Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading

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towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I

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cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get

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over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there

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will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are

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going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which

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constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly.

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Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a

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realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will

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have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the

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May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as

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well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.

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Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has

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tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.

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The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP

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conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party

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is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with

:09:54.:09:58.

the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be

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joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's

:10:06.:10:12.

accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that

:10:13.:10:16.

would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no

:10:17.:10:24.

risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.

:10:25.:10:32.

There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this. We

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will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will

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have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the

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world and they will create jobs. The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi

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and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed

:11:00.:11:06.

concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we

:11:07.:11:12.

should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this

:11:13.:11:22.

a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was

:11:23.:11:28.

a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made

:11:29.:11:33.

the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say

:11:34.:11:37.

is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big

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businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we

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did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they

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wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI,

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there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what

:11:57.:12:01.

the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation

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is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It

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depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are

:12:13.:12:18.

beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses

:12:19.:12:23.

are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any

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potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does

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repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the

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Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions

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to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1975,

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the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a

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renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered

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around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will

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happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by

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Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but

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they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going

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to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ

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them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will

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be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to

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break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader.

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-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am

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not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the

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referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum.

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Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining

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sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29

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million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is

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technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open

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door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29

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million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29

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million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million

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people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will

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do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70

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million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say

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that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 74

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without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another

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massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such

:15:46.:15:50.

a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your

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anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was

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representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it

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was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place

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this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won

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the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that

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doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put

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together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows

:16:25.:16:29.

that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped

:16:30.:16:33.

it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we

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are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.

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Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible

:16:42.:16:46.

and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and

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crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and

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subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration

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issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the

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European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians

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flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.

:17:05.:17:08.

Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good

:17:09.:17:12.

for you, it will stir things up? If you say to people in poor countries,

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you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system,

:17:18.:17:22.

claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You

:17:23.:17:25.

are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if

:17:26.:17:31.

only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk

:17:32.:17:34.

and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European

:17:35.:17:37.

election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.

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The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his

:17:42.:17:45.

leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He

:17:46.:17:48.

bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,

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delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech

:17:53.:17:56.

of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and

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promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The

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next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about

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how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the

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Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and

:18:19.:18:27.

character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between

:18:28.:18:31.

me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was

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Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the

:18:37.:18:41.

tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the

:18:42.:18:45.

tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the

:18:46.:18:50.

bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,

:18:51.:18:53.

here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime

:18:54.:18:57.

Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who

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repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party

:19:07.:19:12.

faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's

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Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the

:19:18.:19:26.

bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off

:19:27.:19:31.

Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was

:19:32.:19:35.

stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think

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that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be

:19:40.:19:43.

justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually

:19:44.:19:47.

help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes

:19:48.:19:52.

that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being

:19:53.:19:57.

incentivised by the bedroom tax, so basically if you are a council

:19:58.:20:00.

tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,

:20:01.:20:05.

then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.

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That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96% of

:20:10.:20:12.

the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a

:20:13.:20:15.

smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore

:20:16.:20:19.

they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one

:20:20.:20:23.

spare bedroom, they are hit by ?700 a year extra to pay and that is

:20:24.:20:30.

completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for

:20:31.:20:34.

their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not

:20:35.:20:38.

depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that?

:20:39.:20:43.

Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working.

:20:44.:20:48.

What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of

:20:49.:20:53.

Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've

:20:54.:20:58.

come off benefits, of the 233,000 affected, it's about 11%. These

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people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit

:21:02.:21:05.

in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits

:21:06.:21:10.

who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them

:21:11.:21:13.

will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find

:21:14.:21:18.

work, or who find work where it's low-paid and need help with their

:21:19.:21:22.

rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their

:21:23.:21:26.

family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to

:21:27.:21:30.

move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,

:21:31.:21:34.

or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are

:21:35.:21:38.

low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because

:21:39.:21:43.

of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was

:21:44.:21:46.

commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change

:21:47.:21:51.

and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,

:21:52.:21:54.

some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have

:21:55.:21:57.

waited until you have got the independent research, that

:21:58.:22:00.

independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In

:22:01.:22:03.

fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their

:22:04.:22:08.

independent research before they bought into effect something and

:22:09.:22:11.

imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have

:22:12.:22:18.

known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could

:22:19.:22:21.

have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into

:22:22.:22:26.

smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from

:22:27.:22:29.

councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move

:22:30.:22:32.

into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should

:22:33.:22:36.

have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are

:22:37.:22:40.

absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into

:22:41.:22:44.

rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you

:22:45.:22:47.

can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies

:22:48.:22:52.

to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The

:22:53.:22:56.

justification for it, which is people will move, is completely

:22:57.:23:00.

bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare

:23:01.:23:06.

reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's

:23:07.:23:09.

welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are

:23:10.:23:14.

you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own

:23:15.:23:17.

supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job

:23:18.:23:21.

actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said

:23:22.:23:26.

that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a

:23:27.:23:29.

young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a

:23:30.:23:33.

job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as

:23:34.:23:38.

somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of

:23:39.:23:42.

unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue

:23:43.:23:46.

about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need

:23:47.:23:51.

support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't

:23:52.:23:54.

have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts

:23:55.:23:59.

the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --

:24:00.:24:03.

substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of

:24:04.:24:08.

benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour

:24:09.:24:13.

must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,

:24:14.:24:18.

redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and

:24:19.:24:22.

the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off, we

:24:23.:24:26.

are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me

:24:27.:24:28.

saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think

:24:29.:24:33.

that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've

:24:34.:24:37.

been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take

:24:38.:24:40.

them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we

:24:41.:24:46.

showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles

:24:47.:24:50.

have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the

:24:51.:24:54.

Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own

:24:55.:24:58.

personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to

:24:59.:25:03.

disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody

:25:04.:25:08.

else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you

:25:09.:25:11.

the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the

:25:12.:25:17.

Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those...

:25:18.:25:23.

But you're... All those who've won their seats against the

:25:24.:25:25.

Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't

:25:26.:25:29.

always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected,

:25:30.:25:34.

the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and

:25:35.:25:41.

these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy

:25:42.:25:46.

grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody,

:25:47.:25:50.

private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming

:25:51.:25:54.

year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow

:25:55.:25:58.

faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was

:25:59.:26:01.

flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow?

:26:02.:26:06.

Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit

:26:07.:26:11.

on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding

:26:12.:26:14.

the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that

:26:15.:26:18.

what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the

:26:19.:26:22.

recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I

:26:23.:26:25.

understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are

:26:26.:26:32.

no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the

:26:33.:26:35.

growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and

:26:36.:26:39.

living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next

:26:40.:26:43.

year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to

:26:44.:26:46.

rise with that amount of growth. What do you do then? We have not

:26:47.:26:50.

switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way

:26:51.:26:53.

along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and

:26:54.:26:58.

we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic

:26:59.:27:02.

policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns

:27:03.:27:07.

people have and recognise that they are struggling with the

:27:08.:27:10.

cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of

:27:11.:27:14.

living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I

:27:15.:27:20.

hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership,

:27:21.:27:25.

for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are

:27:26.:27:28.

worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader

:27:29.:27:33.

measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that

:27:34.:27:35.

decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the

:27:36.:27:40.

country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living

:27:41.:27:47.

standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line?

:27:48.:27:51.

There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National

:27:52.:27:53.

Health Service, about the problems that there is in A, which caused

:27:54.:27:59.

-- are caused by the organisation. I can put forward other lines. All

:28:00.:28:05.

right. Let me ask you one other question If no newspapers have

:28:06.:28:10.

signed up to the Government-backed Labour-backed Royal Charter on press

:28:11.:28:14.

regular lace by 2015 and it looks like the way things are going none

:28:15.:28:19.

will have, if you are in power, will a Labour Government legislate to

:28:20.:28:23.

make them? They don't have to sign up to the Royal Charter, that's not

:28:24.:28:27.

the system. What the Royal Charter does is create a recogniser and

:28:28.:28:30.

basically says it's for the newspapers to set up their own

:28:31.:28:34.

regulator. They are doing that. My question is... Let me finish. If

:28:35.:28:38.

they decide to have nothing to do with the Royal Charter that was

:28:39.:28:42.

decided in Miliband's office in the wee small hours, will you pass

:28:43.:28:46.

legislation to make them? The newspapers are currently setting up

:28:47.:28:50.

what they call... I know that, Harriet Harman. Just let me finish.

:28:51.:28:55.

OK. Because the newspapers are setting up the independent Press

:28:56.:28:58.

Standards Organisation. Right. If it is independent, as they say it is,

:28:59.:29:03.

then the recogniser will simply say, we recognise that this is

:29:04.:29:06.

independent and the whole point is that, in the past when there's been

:29:07.:29:10.

skaen deals a tend press have really turned people's lives upside down

:29:11.:29:13.

and the press have said OK we'll sort things out, leave it to us,

:29:14.:29:19.

then they have sorted things out but a few years later they have slipped

:29:20.:29:22.

back, all this recogniser will do is check it once every three years and

:29:23.:29:26.

say yes, you have got an independent system and it's remained independent

:29:27.:29:30.

and therefore that is the guarantee things won't slip back. Very

:29:31.:29:34.

interesting. Thank you for that. That's really interesting that if

:29:35.:29:38.

they get their act right, you won't force the alternative on them. We

:29:39.:29:43.

want the system as set forward by Leveson which is not statute and

:29:44.:29:49.

direct regulation. I want to stick with the press because I want to

:29:50.:29:53.

ask, is this a British institution or an out-of-date image for a by

:29:54.:29:57.

gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been dividing the nation since it first

:29:58.:30:02.

appeared way back in 1970. That's 43 years ago. Harriet Harman's called

:30:03.:30:07.

for it to be removed, so we sent Adam out to ask whether the topless

:30:08.:30:24.

photographs should stay or go. We have asked people if page three

:30:25.:30:36.

should stay or go. Page three. What do you think? Nothing wrong with it

:30:37.:30:46.

at all. I think it is cheap and exploits women. It is a family

:30:47.:30:58.

newspaper. Should it stay or go? Go. I will look like the bad guy. It

:30:59.:31:08.

should go. You have changed your mind. It is free choice. Girls do

:31:09.:31:18.

not have to be photographed. Old men get the paper just for that. Know

:31:19.:31:31.

when your age does that? Not really. Dashes-macro know what your age.

:31:32.:31:36.

Page three girls, should they stay or go? I am not bothered. There are

:31:37.:31:46.

other ways of getting noticed. Page three of the Sun newspaper every

:31:47.:31:50.

day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40

:31:51.:31:59.

years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been

:32:00.:32:07.

long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to

:32:08.:32:12.

encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my

:32:13.:32:18.

children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see

:32:19.:32:25.

the day when they get rid of it? Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can

:32:26.:32:31.

turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I

:32:32.:32:44.

think the council should do something about their car parks!

:32:45.:32:50.

Mother nature, the human body. It should stay. Is some people like it,

:32:51.:32:59.

that is fine. I have nothing against it. You know what has surprised me,

:33:00.:33:05.

lots of women saying it should stay. Maybe they are seeing it as

:33:06.:33:12.

empowering. As I have a baby daughter in there, I am happy to see

:33:13.:33:20.

it go. Imagine my grandad opening up his paper and they're being my bats!

:33:21.:33:29.

It should go. There is nothing wrong with it. He wants it to go. What

:33:30.:33:37.

about people who think that page three should be banned? Idiots. Do

:33:38.:33:46.

you know a girl called Lacey, aged 22, from Bedford? Good luck to her.

:33:47.:33:55.

I do not know her as a person that I have heard she is nice. What about

:33:56.:34:02.

her decision to be on page three? Nothing to lose. Do you think she

:34:03.:34:10.

has made Bedford proud? That is not hard. What have we learned? More

:34:11.:34:17.

people want page three to stay down for it to go. Most people do not

:34:18.:34:27.

really seem to care, do they? You have heard a range of views. I am

:34:28.:34:33.

not arguing it should be banned. I have not argued for it to be banned

:34:34.:34:39.

but I have disapproved of it since the 1970s. You do not think it

:34:40.:34:51.

should be banned? I do not think there should be dictating content

:34:52.:34:56.

but I do think, if you arrive from outer space in this country in

:34:57.:35:00.

21st-century Britain, and asked yourself what was the role of women

:35:01.:35:05.

in society... To stand in their knickers and nothing else, I think

:35:06.:35:09.

women have more to aspire to than to be able to take their clothes off in

:35:10.:35:20.

public. The sun no longer has the circulation, or the political

:35:21.:35:24.

importance, that it had in the 1980s when page three was at its height.

:35:25.:35:28.

Aren't people just voting with their feet anyway? The market is sorting

:35:29.:35:35.

this out. Half the number of people buy it now than they did 20 years

:35:36.:35:41.

ago. Until the time the sun does not have page three any more, I am

:35:42.:35:45.

entitled to my view that it is outdated and wrong. I am happy to

:35:46.:35:52.

establish that you do not want to ban it. What should happen? Should

:35:53.:36:03.

people boycott the paper? I have never implied or said it should be

:36:04.:36:08.

banned. I have always been forthright. Should people boycott

:36:09.:36:15.

the paper? I have not called for a boycott. The women's movement, of

:36:16.:36:20.

which I am part, and this is not about politicians censoring the

:36:21.:36:25.

press. I am part of the movement which says women can do better than

:36:26.:36:31.

taking off their clothes and being in their knickers in the newspapers.

:36:32.:36:38.

Why don't you do something about it? I am doing something about it by

:36:39.:36:45.

saying it is outdated. I am not doing anything more about it. Should

:36:46.:36:50.

people buy the paper as long as there is a page three? Would you

:36:51.:36:56.

like to say to viewers, as long as page three is in the sand, you

:36:57.:37:03.

should not buy it? Dashes-macro be Son. I am saying, wake up to what

:37:04.:37:08.

the role of women in society should be, which is more than page three.

:37:09.:37:13.

If they changed it in Australia, which is where Rupert Murdoch came

:37:14.:37:19.

from, why can they not change it in this country? You're watching the

:37:20.:37:24.

Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes... I'll be talking

:37:25.:37:26.

Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. What

:37:27.:37:40.

now for the SDLP as the issue of moving into opposition appears to

:37:41.:37:48.

divide the party? If I had my way, we would be in opposition by

:37:49.:37:53.

Christmas. We had 60 years in opposition and we know what it is

:37:54.:37:58.

like. The party leader, Alasdair McDonnell, joins me live in the

:37:59.:38:01.

studio. Plus, he's described claims the Irish government has become

:38:02.:38:04.

disengaged from the political process here as petty and unhelpful.

:38:05.:38:07.

I'll be joined by the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs and Tanaiste,

:38:08.:38:10.

Eamon Gilmore. To discuss all of that and more, the journalist and

:38:11.:38:13.

author Susan McKay and political blogger Alan Meban are my guests

:38:14.:38:15.

today. Hundreds of SDLP delegates gathered

:38:16.:38:24.

in Armagh this weekend for the party's annual conference. The party

:38:25.:38:29.

leader claimed the DUP and Sinn Fein had let people down, delivering bad

:38:30.:38:32.

politics and poor government, and the SDLP insists it can do better.

:38:33.:38:37.

But will the voters agree? Our political correspondent, Martina

:38:38.:38:40.

Purdy, was at the conference. There are some flashing images in her

:38:41.:38:49.

report. A hug for luck from his daughter, but our voters ready to

:38:50.:38:54.

embrace Alasdair McDonnell and the SDLP? He insist they are, claiming

:38:55.:38:59.

the DUP and Sinn Fein have failed to deliver. People feel badly let down.

:39:00.:39:10.

A lot of people out there, the DUP and Sinn Fein by the parties of

:39:11.:39:14.

disappointment, false promise, of poor government and bad politics.

:39:15.:39:21.

The SDLP leader blamed Eulas for the flanks deadlock and told Republicans

:39:22.:39:26.

the shocking revelations about state collusion with loyalist

:39:27.:39:28.

paramilitaries were no excuse for a violent past. The IRA must tell the

:39:29.:39:35.

truth as well. No IRA atrocity can ever justify Unionist politicians

:39:36.:39:42.

dismissing collusion. Such talk is insulting to victims, survivors and

:39:43.:39:49.

is insulting to the hundreds of honest RUC officers who hunted down

:39:50.:39:52.

loyalist killers as well as IRA killers. As for the SDLP, he told

:39:53.:40:00.

the conference it was ready to confound critics who claimed its

:40:01.:40:04.

best days are behind it. Together, we shall overcome. Alistair

:40:05.:40:12.

McDonnell seized the leadership of the SDLP with a promise to rebuild,

:40:13.:40:16.

and the test of that will come in six months time and European and

:40:17.:40:22.

local government elections. He says success will depend on a new

:40:23.:40:25.

generation of voters, a generation very much in evidence. I joined the

:40:26.:40:32.

SDLP this year because I am a very strong socialist and I was

:40:33.:40:37.

interested in joining a party that was committed to being against

:40:38.:40:43.

balance. When you see the number of motivated people around me today,

:40:44.:40:49.

you can see they are on the rise. This MLA help improve the party's

:40:50.:40:54.

vote and Ward the SDLP must not change course by going into

:40:55.:40:58.

opposition. If you go into opposition without having a clear

:40:59.:41:05.

strategy, to work from a position of influence, you cannot go into the

:41:06.:41:11.

political wilderness. It is a view echoed by one of the party's

:41:12.:41:18.

bounders. No, we had what over 60 years in opposition and know what it

:41:19.:41:23.

is like. This thing is imperfect in the way it is being led but we will

:41:24.:41:28.

stick in there and we take on the issues and the people who are making

:41:29.:41:33.

the issues. But the deputy leader thinks differently. So does the

:41:34.:41:42.

leader for Southdown. That is what a democratic system is based on,

:41:43.:41:45.

opposition leading for change, and if I had my way we would be in

:41:46.:41:51.

opposition by Christmas. Alex Attwood, the party's candidate for

:41:52.:41:55.

Europe, incest the SDLP will prevail. The leader of the SDLP,

:41:56.:42:01.

Alasdair McDonnell, is with me now. You talked about the core values of

:42:02.:42:04.

the SDLP being reconciliation, social justice and prosperity. It's

:42:05.:42:08.

a catchy headline, but what does it actually mean? It means we believe

:42:09.:42:14.

there has to be reconciliation between the people and to define

:42:15.:42:22.

that further, there has to be a reconciliation or a coming together

:42:23.:42:26.

with the North, between the north and South of Ireland and between

:42:27.:42:32.

Ireland and Britain, and old animosities and hostilities must be

:42:33.:42:37.

left behind. It is clear that people don't reconcile easily and we need

:42:38.:42:42.

to create a tolerance and a space for a accommodation and then embrace

:42:43.:42:48.

the change and indifference. What will the SDLP do to facilitate

:42:49.:42:55.

that? I suspect party leaders would disagree with the language. Attack

:42:56.:43:00.

would not disagree, but what will the SDLP do to achieve at? I

:43:01.:43:07.

continuously reach out to people in all walks of life, church leaders

:43:08.:43:12.

and give them the benefit of support, and there is no quick fix.

:43:13.:43:17.

We have been stuck with this for a number of years. There should have

:43:18.:43:22.

been a more robust reconciliation. We depend on the government for a

:43:23.:43:27.

shared integration strategy that has not appeared, or an effective one

:43:28.:43:32.

has not appeared. We have to bring down the barriers between people, I

:43:33.:43:38.

do not want people to be all the same but we have to bring down some

:43:39.:43:41.

barriers that have been thrown up over the last 40 years. You talk

:43:42.:43:48.

about a prosperity process. What is the meat on the bone as far as that

:43:49.:43:51.

is concerned? Where does the money come from? The Irish government does

:43:52.:43:55.

not have much in the British government has made clear everything

:43:56.:43:59.

we get will come from the block grant. You can steal without

:44:00.:44:05.

effectively in isolation. There are young people and we saw plenty of

:44:06.:44:12.

that in loyalist protests last year, young people have no hope in this

:44:13.:44:17.

city. There are young people with no hope, high levels of unemployment

:44:18.:44:22.

and immigration. We have talked about peace and the political

:44:23.:44:26.

process but what we have to do is ensure there are job opportunities

:44:27.:44:29.

for people and that the ordinary people out there get some benefit

:44:30.:44:34.

and derive some benefit from peace. We were promised by the various

:44:35.:44:42.

prime ministers that they would be a fund here, we had all the debate

:44:43.:44:48.

around corporation tax yet nothing has come to pass, there has been no

:44:49.:44:54.

special funding initiative to pump our economy here and boost our

:44:55.:44:59.

economy to a situation where people feel secure. I am deeply concerned

:45:00.:45:04.

about young people on the margins across our society who have no hope

:45:05.:45:07.

and to feel that peace has not brought them much benefit. The issue

:45:08.:45:13.

of opposition seems to be one that is causing a problem to your party.

:45:14.:45:17.

There are mixed messages, demands from some in the party to move into

:45:18.:45:22.

opposition are louder, Margaret Ritchie said the party should be in

:45:23.:45:26.

opposition by Christmas, others like Seamus Mallon and Patsy McGlone said

:45:27.:45:31.

you have to stay and change things from the inside. What is the SDLP's

:45:32.:45:38.

formal position? We are an open, democratic political party, we don't

:45:39.:45:43.

take dictation from the top and I don't want to dictate from the top.

:45:44.:45:47.

This issue has been raised over the last 18 months and there are people

:45:48.:45:53.

in frustration at times who think we would be better disassociation

:45:54.:45:57.

ourselves from the poor government and the failures of the Executive.

:45:58.:46:01.

Do you agree with them? Should you consider our position? There are

:46:02.:46:09.

discussions in the party, I have produced a bit of paper but it is in

:46:10.:46:14.

a very early stage, I have asked others to produce their ideas and

:46:15.:46:18.

over time, the SDLP will come to terms with this, but I am large, we

:46:19.:46:24.

have gone into politics and I agree much with what Seamus Mallon said,

:46:25.:46:29.

we had years in opposition, we went into politics to be constructive and

:46:30.:46:33.

play our part. So your gut feeling is you should stay there are? A week

:46:34.:46:40.

is a long time in politics and you cannot anticipate what stupidity is

:46:41.:46:45.

down the road. What would be the issue that would force you out of

:46:46.:46:49.

government? I cannot anticipate a breaking point down the road, but if

:46:50.:46:53.

the DUP and Sinn Fein continue the route of exclusion where the rest of

:46:54.:47:00.

us are pushed to the margins, where there is little or no consultation

:47:01.:47:04.

on any issue, and a sort of thing that people are very angry about and

:47:05.:47:08.

why it has surfaced again is planning. Would that be distraught

:47:09.:47:15.

that breaks the camel's back? The planning Bill has annoyed the hell

:47:16.:47:19.

out of people and people are saying there was a good planning Bill going

:47:20.:47:24.

through but the public want to be consulted more Ireland planning

:47:25.:47:28.

issues. Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness decided to throw a

:47:29.:47:32.

torpedo in and end up turning a good planning Bill into a toxic Bill

:47:33.:47:39.

where they were taking over control of big planning projects and riding

:47:40.:47:45.

roughshod over ordinary people. But doesn't the SDLP have to take a bit

:47:46.:47:49.

addition, shouldn't you as leaders say we are clear on this, if the

:47:50.:47:52.

following happens we will government, because at the moment it

:47:53.:47:58.

looks like you are not sure. Politics is the art of the

:47:59.:48:02.

possible. Those circumstances have not arrived. I will not make wild

:48:03.:48:07.

threats about leaving government or doing this or that, we will take

:48:08.:48:15.

them as they arise. The danger is, we are in aid talks process at the

:48:16.:48:19.

moment where we are trying to put some past issues to bed and we are

:48:20.:48:24.

trying to deal with them and there is no point of trying to put a gun

:48:25.:48:30.

to someone's head. You lost a broadside against the DUP and Sinn

:48:31.:48:33.

Fein. They will continue to bully you eat as you will not do anything

:48:34.:48:38.

about it tells you don't have a bottom line. That is not true. We

:48:39.:48:45.

will see what they will do. They are pushing hard, aren't they? You are

:48:46.:48:50.

guessing what they will do. We will push hard back and we will push hard

:48:51.:48:54.

on the issues that matter to ordinary people. Whether be a deal

:48:55.:49:00.

done as far as Richard Haass is concerned by Christmas? I think

:49:01.:49:05.

there will be progress. Whether there is a deal done, we are keen

:49:06.:49:12.

that the wider population, this started as a small thing, only a

:49:13.:49:17.

subcommittee at Stormont, and we asked to get the whole public

:49:18.:49:21.

consultation, something like 400 or 500 people. You are optimistic? I am

:49:22.:49:29.

very optimistic. We will leave it there. Alistair MacDonald, thank you

:49:30.:49:33.

for joining us. Now, the Assembly was back this week

:49:34.:49:36.

after its half-term break. Let's take a look at the week gone past in

:49:37.:49:46.

60 seconds with Gareth Gordon. A documentary on the period puts more

:49:47.:49:51.

pressure on Gerry Adams. I had no act or part to play in the killing

:49:52.:49:59.

or the burial. The party that brought this board are more

:50:00.:50:02.

interested in covering up for their paedophile protecting President.

:50:03.:50:08.

Edwin Poots turns it based on his gay blood bank into another attack

:50:09.:50:13.

on Mr Adams and annoys Sinn Fein. I think the Minister's approach was

:50:14.:50:19.

highly unprofessional. And the rule of the Attorney General is the size

:50:20.:50:24.

by a former Stormont minister. A lot of people think the office has got

:50:25.:50:28.

too big and it has gone into places where best not to go. And the

:50:29.:50:34.

regional element minister rebuilds a liking for Lycra. Members were

:50:35.:50:40.

discussing whether I was ready for racing myself in Lycra. I can tell

:50:41.:50:42.

you that I am. Let's hear from our guests, Susan

:50:43.:50:55.

McKay and Alan Meban. Picking up on what Alasdair McDonnell have to say,

:50:56.:51:01.

the big issue as far as opposition for the SDLP is concerned seems to

:51:02.:51:03.

be something the party has to deal with. There are divided issues.

:51:04.:51:11.

Allen, do you accept that the party needs a definitive position? It is

:51:12.:51:15.

something they have been talking about for the last two years, part

:51:16.:51:20.

of the last leadership election, it came up again with Dolores Kelly and

:51:21.:51:24.

this year Margaret Ritchie added, you need to have an internal

:51:25.:51:29.

discussion to decide their strategy otherwise it will become like the

:51:30.:51:37.

DUP and one of those -- like the UUP and drive them apart. My point was

:51:38.:51:43.

the need to state their bottom line or the other parties will push

:51:44.:51:47.

because they think they can get away with anything. You don't have to say

:51:48.:51:52.

your bottom line out loud but you need to know what it is. Do you

:51:53.:51:56.

think the SDLP knows what it's bottom line is? No, I think they are

:51:57.:52:01.

hoping the planning Bill is not the bottom line but the only have one

:52:02.:52:05.

minister and very little power to stand up and fight against the rest

:52:06.:52:10.

was that it is a tricky problem for the party. Yes, I think in the

:52:11.:52:17.

present circumstances where Sinn Fein has gone peaceful, it is

:52:18.:52:20.

difficult for the SDLP to see what it is therefore because in many ways

:52:21.:52:25.

Martin McGuinness sounds more like John Hume then Doctor McDonald, and

:52:26.:52:33.

I think his speech was dull, it was too long, even in his interview

:52:34.:52:37.

today he was clearly caught by the divisions within the party and that

:52:38.:52:40.

just makes the party look weak and confused. There is obviously this

:52:41.:52:46.

gap in the party where there is a generation missing, where there

:52:47.:52:50.

wasn't a proper succession from the early party leaders are the John

:52:51.:52:55.

Hume and Seamus Mallon generation, and now you have young people coming

:52:56.:53:00.

in but not that middle-aged group of people who have been building their

:53:01.:53:05.

positions firmly. Alan, we had that banner headline, reconciliation,

:53:06.:53:10.

social justice, prosperity. It sounds good, it made it onto the

:53:11.:53:17.

news, but what did it mean? There was very little substance that said

:53:18.:53:20.

here are things we will do, things you will see on your doorstep,

:53:21.:53:24.

little about putting money into people's wallops, it did not have

:53:25.:53:28.

those specific things to sell to an electorate. And getting money from

:53:29.:53:36.

the Republic is just unrealistic at the moment. We will talk to you

:53:37.:53:42.

later. On this Remembrance Sunday, leading politicians from the

:53:43.:53:44.

Republic have joined services here to honour the war dead. The

:53:45.:53:47.

Taioseach, Enda Kenny, was in Enniskillen. And earlier this

:53:48.:53:50.

morning, the Tanaiste and Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs joined

:53:51.:53:53.

the Secretary of State and other dignitaries to lay a wreath at the

:53:54.:53:57.

Cenotaph in Belfast. Eamon Gilmore is with me now. Thank you for

:53:58.:54:04.

joining us. Has the public understanding of remembrance and the

:54:05.:54:08.

wearing of the poppy changed in the Republic? I think it has. There is a

:54:09.:54:17.

stronger sense that we need to commemorate our history together.

:54:18.:54:25.

Over 200 people across the island of Ireland fought in the First World

:54:26.:54:30.

War. By 1945, there were 50,000 people from the Republic fighting

:54:31.:54:35.

fascism in the British uniform, and there is a strong sense we need all

:54:36.:54:41.

of us, in our own way, to commemorate what people did and

:54:42.:54:47.

these wars. Can I ask why you and the Taoiseach choose to come north

:54:48.:54:50.

to take part in commemorations rather than fitting part in

:54:51.:54:56.

commemorations in the Republic? We do have a day of commemoration in

:54:57.:55:00.

July when we commemorate all the war dead. But today you were in the

:55:01.:55:08.

North. Yes, we did this last year, we have done so again today because

:55:09.:55:14.

we recognise there is a strong tradition of remembrance in Northern

:55:15.:55:17.

Ireland and want to associate the arrows to Vermont with that. Can we

:55:18.:55:22.

move on to broader politics? You have been criticised for not being

:55:23.:55:25.

as fully engaged with the political process here as you might be a high

:55:26.:55:31.

amongst others, Micheal Martin and other commentators like Brian Feeney

:55:32.:55:34.

and Denis Bradley. Do you take those criticisms seriously? I think

:55:35.:55:40.

criticism by opposition leaders in the South are just that, there has

:55:41.:55:45.

been a tradition in the size that we would have an all-party approach to

:55:46.:55:48.

Northern Ireland and I regret that Bain of oil appear to be playing it

:55:49.:55:55.

for party advantage. -- Fianna Fail we have representatives in Northern

:55:56.:55:59.

Ireland, both in Belfast and Armagh. I was here on Friday, the

:56:00.:56:04.

North-South ministerial Council discussing issues relating to the

:56:05.:56:08.

economy and health services, things that matter, I was here at the SDLP

:56:09.:56:16.

conference with the Secretary of State and I am here today. You will

:56:17.:56:22.

have heard Alasdair McDonnell say yesterday that any Richard Haass

:56:23.:56:24.

deal that is forthcoming needs to be jointly guaranteed by the two

:56:25.:56:33.

governments. You accept that? The two governments are the guarantors

:56:34.:56:36.

of the agreements and we have to guarantee what emerges from the

:56:37.:56:41.

house talks. I have met with Richard Haass on a number of occasions, I've

:56:42.:56:46.

met last week in Dublin and previously in New York and we are

:56:47.:56:53.

keeping in close contact, but he cannot deliver miracles. There has

:56:54.:56:57.

to be engagement and I believe there is engagement either political

:56:58.:57:02.

parties in Northern Ireland, and also by wider society because this

:57:03.:57:06.

is not just a political process, it is also a process that business and

:57:07.:57:13.

committee organisations and people in wider society need to be part of

:57:14.:57:18.

this process. You agree that the sticking point in the process is

:57:19.:57:22.

likely to be the past? That is the difficult issue to sort out? I think

:57:23.:57:28.

it is important that agreement is reached on flags and parades and

:57:29.:57:32.

that is important because of what we saw this summer and last year. The

:57:33.:57:36.

issue of the past has to be addressed and they way has to be

:57:37.:57:40.

found of dealing with the past because so many people in Northern

:57:41.:57:44.

Ireland are attacked by the past and it continues to invade the political

:57:45.:57:52.

process and discussions here. The plight of the Disappeared has been

:57:53.:57:56.

at the top of the agenda because of the BBC RTE programme on Monday. Do

:57:57.:58:01.

you think Gerry Adams has been damaged by the claim he was

:58:02.:58:04.

responsible for the murder of Jean McConville? First we have to see the

:58:05.:58:10.

bodies return. I met relatives of the Disappeared yesterday and today

:58:11.:58:15.

and relatives of people affected by the atrocities described and they

:58:16.:58:20.

need to have closure. I don't think there is a democracy in the world

:58:21.:58:26.

where a programme of that kind was made about a political leader, the

:58:27.:58:29.

leader would not have to address questions, but the immediate thing

:58:30.:58:33.

is that the families get back the bodies and are able to conclude

:58:34.:58:36.

their grieving. Thank you for joining us. Let's hear the final

:58:37.:58:47.

thoughts of our commentators. Susan. I am pleased to hear the Tanaiste

:58:48.:58:50.

talking in terms of the need for some kind of Comber fans of approach

:58:51.:58:54.

to what happened in the past because it is every week now, some painful

:58:55.:59:00.

scandal is emerging in relation to what happened to people, but it is

:59:01.:59:05.

tremendously moving to see interviews with people who were

:59:06.:59:09.

victims and as Eamon Gilmore said, the week before last we had victims

:59:10.:59:13.

of collusion coming forward, last week we heard from families of the

:59:14.:59:18.

Disappeared, but we knew about these families at the time that we signed

:59:19.:59:22.

up to the Good Friday Agreement. We have known for a long time that the

:59:23.:59:26.

accusation was out there that Gerry Adams was responsible. Nobody

:59:27.:59:30.

believes Gerry Adams was not in the IRA, so if we don't deal with this

:59:31.:59:37.

it will keep on coming back and it is intensely painful for the

:59:38.:59:39.

families involved. We are being dishonest about it. We knew about

:59:40.:59:43.

this when the Good Friday Agreement was signed. We need to move to the

:59:44.:59:50.

next phase. Alan, you have a finger on the pulse of the political mood.

:59:51.:59:54.

Do you think Gerry Adams was damaged? I don't think so, I think

:59:55.:00:00.

it added to the material that suggests he is uncomfortable talking

:00:01.:00:04.

about his past but I don't think it added anything new. He is a man who

:00:05.:00:10.

things do not stick to, and if he says the same line, I don't think he

:00:11.:00:14.

will change, I don't think the programme damaged him but I don't

:00:15.:00:18.

think it helped them. Do you think he will continue to lead Sinn Fein?

:00:19.:00:24.

I think he will wait until a quiet moment and then slide away. He will

:00:25.:00:26.

not let himself be pushed. more equipment so they can see

:00:27.:00:28.

cyclists. Back to you, Andrew. We learned this week that no more

:00:29.:00:42.

warships will be built at Portsmouth, the home of the Royal

:00:43.:00:45.

Navy since the days of the Mary Rose and Francis Drake. But has the city

:00:46.:00:49.

been sacrificed to save jobs on the Clyde in Scotland? Is England the

:00:50.:00:52.

loser in an effort to keep the United Kingdom intact? Let's speak

:00:53.:00:56.

to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign for an English Parliament. Is

:00:57.:01:08.

England the loser in this attempt to keep the

:01:09.:01:08.

doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English

:01:09.:01:17.

Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to

:01:18.:01:21.

stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best

:01:22.:01:27.

outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?

:01:28.:01:31.

We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is

:01:32.:01:35.

an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the

:01:36.:01:41.

people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for

:01:42.:01:46.

independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be

:01:47.:01:52.

dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without

:01:53.:02:00.

true representation. The union continues but it continues without

:02:01.:02:05.

Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional

:02:06.:02:09.

position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional

:02:10.:02:14.

position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year? We

:02:15.:02:20.

want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained

:02:21.:02:26.

or England can have a fair deal, within the union, that is brilliant.

:02:27.:02:30.

Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally. If

:02:31.:02:34.

that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,

:02:35.:02:43.

it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the

:02:44.:02:48.

union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by

:02:49.:02:52.

England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,

:02:53.:02:58.

wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny

:02:59.:03:05.

list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to

:03:06.:03:09.

the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very

:03:10.:03:14.

concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched

:03:15.:03:19.

British come English Parliament, the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable

:03:20.:03:23.

situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with

:03:24.:03:28.

Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about

:03:29.:03:31.

trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile

:03:32.:03:36.

situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation

:03:37.:03:41.

separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and

:03:42.:03:46.

Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I

:03:47.:03:51.

want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were

:03:52.:03:58.

sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to

:03:59.:04:05.

remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.

:04:06.:04:14.

Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become

:04:15.:04:20.

a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England

:04:21.:04:24.

to have their representation - representation that looks at

:04:25.:04:29.

policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern

:04:30.:04:32.

Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way

:04:33.:04:37.

forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system

:04:38.:04:48.

might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you

:04:49.:04:56.

want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is

:04:57.:05:03.

implement the process is to get their representation for England. I

:05:04.:05:08.

would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way

:05:09.:05:14.

to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.

:05:15.:05:19.

Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the

:05:20.:05:21.

British government is trying desperately to save the union by

:05:22.:05:27.

giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this

:05:28.:05:33.

business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been

:05:34.:05:37.

pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the

:05:38.:05:41.

union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a

:05:42.:05:47.

disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a

:05:48.:05:51.

minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow

:05:52.:05:54.

its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to

:05:55.:05:59.

admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be

:06:00.:06:04.

dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a

:06:05.:06:09.

Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a

:06:10.:06:14.

killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in

:06:15.:06:19.

this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.

:06:20.:06:25.

And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial

:06:26.:06:30.

area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has

:06:31.:06:34.

backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in

:06:35.:06:38.

Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English

:06:39.:06:42.

nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist

:06:43.:06:47.

in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed

:06:48.:06:51.

to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to

:06:52.:06:55.

win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to

:06:56.:07:01.

imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more

:07:02.:07:09.

autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David

:07:10.:07:14.

Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any

:07:15.:07:19.

vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,

:07:20.:07:25.

you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is

:07:26.:07:29.

economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the

:07:30.:07:33.

United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this

:07:34.:07:36.

government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of

:07:37.:07:40.

being in the United Kingdom and, under their breath, or in the case

:07:41.:07:45.

of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave!

:07:46.:07:51.

That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you

:07:52.:07:55.

like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you

:07:56.:07:59.

happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last

:08:00.:08:01.

week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He

:08:02.:08:05.

said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,

:08:06.:08:08.

what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll

:08:09.:08:12.

hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I

:08:13.:08:21.

have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?

:08:22.:08:26.

Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used

:08:27.:08:32.

drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years

:08:33.:08:39.

ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few

:08:40.:08:45.

times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine? I

:08:46.:08:52.

tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around

:08:53.:09:17.

you who took cocaine, they went... Is it better to confess or the that

:09:18.:09:24.

get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession

:09:25.:09:30.

by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once

:09:31.:09:37.

smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that

:09:38.:09:42.

she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about

:09:43.:09:46.

them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not

:09:47.:09:52.

deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant

:09:53.:10:03.

to be regarded as a rising star, turns out he was claiming to heat

:10:04.:10:09.

his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a

:10:10.:10:14.

generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went

:10:15.:10:17.

through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables

:10:18.:10:21.

and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely

:10:22.:10:27.

honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy

:10:28.:10:35.

is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was

:10:36.:10:40.

saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet

:10:41.:10:45.

Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,

:10:46.:10:49.

you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you

:10:50.:10:57.

cannot have a front line career. There is the politician confessing

:10:58.:11:00.

and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is

:11:01.:11:04.

enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair

:11:05.:11:09.

or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be

:11:10.:11:14.

mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There

:11:15.:11:19.

was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine. He

:11:20.:11:25.

was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the

:11:26.:11:33.

line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.

:11:34.:11:38.

Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will

:11:39.:11:41.

surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes

:11:42.:11:44.

on this scheme in the benefiting from buying their homes

:11:45.:11:46.

on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those

:11:47.:11:51.

who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.

:11:52.:11:56.

The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 2014,

:11:57.:12:03.

early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages

:12:04.:12:09.

will have two find an extra ?400 a month to pay them off. I would not

:12:10.:12:14.

be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this

:12:15.:12:26.

trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very

:12:27.:12:35.

careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a

:12:36.:12:39.

certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled

:12:40.:12:43.

before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory

:12:44.:12:47.

strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement

:12:48.:12:51.

or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.

:12:52.:13:01.

-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions

:13:02.:13:05.

about it, it is senior figures - people in senior economic positions.

:13:06.:13:12.

They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be

:13:13.:13:15.

surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it

:13:16.:13:20.

is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be

:13:21.:13:26.

cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two

:13:27.:13:30.

at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.

:13:31.:13:33.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:34.:13:44.

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