17/11/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

Downing Street announces an inquiry into allegations of hardball

Downing Street announces an inquiry and intimidation by unions in

industrial disputes. That's our top story.

Thousands dead. Hundreds of thousands without homes. Millions

affected. What is Britain doing to help the Philippines in the wake of

Typhoon Haiyan? We'll ask International Development Secretary

Justine Greening. Winter is coming and so, it seems,

is another crisis in England's hospitals. I'll be asking the Shadow

And coming up here, should the to

And coming up here, should the Assembly have the power to alter the

levels of income tax and stamp duty? We'll examine NI21's big ideas and

the SDLP's demand for the return of the Civic Forum. Join

fatalities on the capital's streets, and renewed calls to get lorries off

the roads in peak hours. With me, the best and brightest

political panel that money can buy. Janan Ganesh, Nick Watt and this

week, Zoe Williams, who'll be tweeting their thoughts throughout

the programme. The Government has announced a

review to investigate what the Prime Minister has called "industrial

intimidation" by trade union activists. Bruce Carr QC will chair

a panel to examine allegations of the kind of tactics that came to

light during the Grangemouth dispute, when the Unite union took

their protests - replete with a giant rat - outside the family homes

of the firms' bosses. Earlier this morning the Cabinet office minister,

Francis Maude spoke to the BBC and this is what he had to say. To look

at whether the law currently works and see if it is ineffective in

preventing the kind of intimidatory activity that was alleged to have

taken place around range mouth during the previous disputes --

Grangemouth. We make no presumptions at the beginning of this. I do think

it is a responsible thing for the government to establish what

happened and really do a proper review into whether the law is

adequate to meet the needs. That was Francis Maude. This is a purely

political move, isn't it? Unite did this a couple of times, it is hardly

happening all over the country but the government want to say, we are

prepared to investigate Unite properly, Labour isn't. This seemed

a lot worse when I thought it was a real rat. I thought it was a giant

dead rat. I am not sure if you know much about rats but real rats are

not this big, even the ones in London. The thing is, obviously it

is naked politics but I think it is more intelligent than it looks. They

are trying to taint Miliband as a week union puppet and that doesn't

really wash. They hammer away with it and it might wash for some

people. But it really castrates Miliband in the important issues he

has to tackle. Zero hours, living wage, all of those things in which

he needs to be in concert with the unions, and to use their expertise.

He is making them absolutely toxic to go anywhere near. It keeps the

Unite story alive, have to kill -- particularly since Mr Miller band is

under pressure to reopen the investigation into what Unite are up

to -- Mr Miliband. They are frustrated, not only at the BBC but

the media generally at what they think is a lack of coverage. I see

the political rationale from that respect. There is a risk. There are

union members who either vote Tory or are open to the idea of voting

Tory. All Lib Dem. If the party comes across as too zealous in as --

its antipathy, there is an electoral consequence. Ed Miliband has been

careful to keep a distance. Yes, they depend on vast amounts of

money. When Len McCluskey had a real go at the Blairites, Ed Miliband was

straight out there with a very strong statement. Essentially Len

McCluskey wanted Blairites in the shadow cabinet sacked and Ed

Miliband was keen to distance himself or for that is why it is not

quite sticking. Another story in the Sunday papers this morning, the Mail

on Sunday got hold of some e-mails. When I saw the headline I thought it

was a huge cache of e-mails, it turns out to be a couple. They peel

away the cover on the relationship between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls,

with some of Ed Miliband's cohorts describing what Mr balls is trying

with some of Ed Miliband's cohorts to do as a nightmare. How bad are

the relations? They are pretty bad and these e-mails confirm the

biggest open signal in Westminster, which is that relations are pretty

tense, -- open secret. That Ed Miliband doesn't feel that Ed Balls

is acknowledging the economy has grown that Labour needs to admit to

past mistakes. The sort of great open signal is confirmed. On a scale

of 1-10, assuming that Blair-Brown was ten. I think it is between six

and seven. They occupy this joint suite of offices that George Cameron

and -- David Cameron and George Osborne had. It is not just on the

economy that there were tensions, there were clearly tensions

economy that there were tensions, HS2, Ed Balls put a huge question

over it at his conference. There will be more tensions when it comes

to the third runway because my information is that Mr balls wants

to do it and Ed Miliband almost resigned over it when he was in

government. I don't think Ed Miliband is thinking very

politically because he has tried live without Ed Balls and that is

not tenable either. -- life without. He has defined a way of making it

work. That is where Tony Blair had the edge on any modern politician.

He didn't want to make Ed Balls his Shadow Chancellor, he had to.

Somebody said to him, if you make Ed Balls Shadow Chancellor, that will

be the last decision you take as leader of the Labour Party. Is it as

bad? I was surprised at how tame the e-mails were. At the FT it is

compulsory, one French word per sentence! To call him a nightmare,

compared to what they are willing to say in briefings, conversations,

bits of frustrations they express verbally come what is documented in

the e-mails is actually pretty light. It has been a grim week for

the people of the Philippines as they count the cost of the

devastation wrought by Typhoon Haiyan. HMS Daring has just arrived

near the worst hit areas - part of Britain's contribution to bring aid

to the country. It has been one of the worst natural

disasters in the history of the Philippines. Typhoon Haiyan hit the

country nine days ago, leaving devastation in its wake. The numbers

involved are shocking. The official death toll is over 3600 people, with

many thousands more unaccounted for. More than half a million people have

lost their homes and the UN estimates 11 million have been

affected. David Cameron announced on Friday that the UK government is to

give an extra ?30 million in aid, taking the total British figure ?250

million. An RAF Sea 17 aircraft landed yesterday with equipment to

help aid workers get too hard to reach areas. HMS Illustrious is on

its way and due to arrive next weekend. The British public have

once again dipped into their pockets and given generously. They have

given more than ?30 million to the Disasters Emergency Committee.

The International Development Secretary, Justine Greening, joins

The International Development me now for the Sunday Interview.

Good morning, Secretary of State. How much of the ?50 million that the

government has allocated has got through so far? All of it has landed

on the ground now. HMS Daring has turned up, that will be able to

start getting help out to some of those more outlying islands that

have been hard to reach. We have seen Save the Children and Oxfam

really being able to get aid out on the ground. We have a plane taking

off today that will not read just carrying out more equipment to help

clear the roads but will also have their staff on board, too. We have

?50 million of aid actually on the ground? We instantly chartered

flights directly from Dubai where we have preprepared human Terry and

supplies, and started humanity work -- humanitarian supplies.

A lot of it has now arrived. I think we have done a huge amount so far.

We have gone beyond just providing humanitarian supplies, to getting

the Royal Air Force involved. They have helped us to get equipment out

there quickly. We have HMS Illustrious sailing over there now.

Why has that taken so long? It was based in the Gulf and is not going

to get there until two weeks after the storm first hit and that is the

one ship we have with lots of helicopters. The first decision we

took was to make sure we could get the fastest vessel out there that

was able to help HMS Daring. HMS Illustrious was just finishing an

exercise and planning to start to head back towards the UK. We have

exercise and planning to start to said to not do that, and diverted

it. Shouldn't it have happened more quickly? We took the decisions as

fast as we were able to, you can't just turn a big warship around like

the HMS Illustrious. We made sure we took those decisions and that is

while it will be taking over from HMS Daring come and that is why HMS

Daring is ready there. It will be able to provide key support and

expertise that has not been there so far. The US Navy is doing the heavy

lifting here. The US Navy had the USS Washington, there is an aircraft

carrier, 80 planes, 5000 personnel and they have the fleet, they are

doing the real work. We obviously helping but the Americans are taking

the lead. It is a big international effort. Countries like the US and

the UK, that have a broader ability to support that goes

the UK, that have a broader ability call humanitarian supplies -- have

made sure we have brought our logistics knowledge, we have sent

out our naval vessels. It shows we are working across government to

respond to this crisis. Why does only just over 4% of your aid budget

go on emergency disaster and response? A lot depends on what

crises hit in any given year. We have done a huge amount, responding

to the crisis in Syria, the conflict there and the fact we have 2 million

refugees who have fled the country. We are part of an international

effort in supporting them. Shouldn't we beginning more money to that

rather than some of the other programmes where it is harder to see

the results question of if we were to give more money to the refugees,

it would be a visible result. We could see an improvement in the

lives of children, men and women. What we need to do is alongside that

is stop those situations from happening in the first place. A lot

of our development spend is helping countries to stay stable. Look at

some of the work we are doing in Somalia, much more sensible. Not

just from an immigration but there is a threat perspective. There is a

lot of terrorism coming from Somalia. You only have to look at

Kenya recently to see that. Which is why you talk about what we do with

the rest of the spend. It is why it is responsible to work with the

government of Somalia. Should we give more, bigger part of the budget

to disaster relief or not? I think we get it about right, we have to be

flexible and we are. This Philippine relief is on top of the work in

Syria. Where can you show me a correlation between us giving aid to

some failed nation, or nearly failed nation, and that cutting down on

terrorism? If you look at the work we have done in Pakistan, a huge

amount of work. Some of it short-term. It is written by

terrorism. That is -- ridden by terrorism. That is not going to fix

it self in a sense. Look at the work that we do in investing in

education. The things that little girls like Malala talk about as

being absolutely key. We are ramping up our aid to Pakistan, it will be

close to half ?1 billion by the time of the election. Why should British

taxpayers be giving half ?1 billion to a country where only 0.5% of

people in Pakistan pay income tax, and 70% of their own MPs don't pay

income tax. It is a good point and that is why we have been working

with their tax revenue authority to help them increase that and push

forward the tax reform. You are right, and I have setup a team that

will go out and work with many of these countries so they can raise

their own revenues. You really think you will raise the amount of tax by

sending out the British HRM see? How many troops I we sending out to

protect them? They don't need troops. We make sure that we have a

duty of care alongside our staff, but we have to respond to any crisis

like the Philippines, and alongside other countries we have two work

alongside them so that they can reinvest in their own public

services. If they can create their own taxes, will we stop paying aid?

We need to look at that but the new Pakistan Government has been very

clear it is a priority and we will be helping them in pursuing that.

Let me show you a picture. Who are these young women? I don't know, I'm

sure you are about to tell me. They are the Ethiopian Spice Girls and

I'm surprised you don't know because they have only managed to become so

famous because your department has financed them to the tune of ?4

million. All of the work we do with women on the ground, making sure

they have a voice in their local communities, making sure they have

some control over what happens to their own bodies in terms of

tackling FGM, female genital mutilation... Did you know your

department has spent ?4 million on the Ethiopian Spice Girls? Yes, I

do, and we have to work with girls and show them there is a life ahead

of them with opportunity and potential that goes beyond what many

of them will experience, which includes early and forced marriage.

It is part of the work we do with local communities to change

attitudes everything you have just said is immeasurable, and they

broadcast on a radio station that doesn't reach most of the country so

it cannot have the impact. It only reaches 20 million people and the

project has been condemned saying there were serious inefficiencies.

That aid report was done a while ago now, and it was talking about the

project when it first got going, and a lot of improvements have happened

since. I would go back to the point that we are working in very

difficult environments where we are trying to get longer term change on

the ground and that means working directly with communities but also

investing for the long-term, investing in some of these girls

start changing attitudes in them and their communities. Why does the

British taxpayers spend ?5 million on a Bangladesh version of Question

Time? We work with the BBC to make sure we can get accountabilities...

That is bigger then the BBC Question Time Normal -- budget. That includes

the cost of David Dimbleby's tattoo! We are working to improve

people's prospects but also we are working to improve their ability to

hold their governments to account so that when they are not getting

services on the ground, they have ways they can raise those concerns

services on the ground, they have with the people who are there to

deliver services for them. In your own personal view, should the next

Conservative Government, if there is one, should you continue to ring

fence spending on foreign aid? But it is critical that if we are going

to spend 7.7% of our national income, we should make sure it is in

our national interest and that means having a clear approach to

humanitarian responses, in keeping the country safe, and a clearer

approach on helping drive economic development and jobs so there is a

long-term end of the dependency. Do you believe in an shrine in the

percentage of our GDP that goes on foreign aid in law? Yes, and

percentage of our GDP that goes on a coalition agreement. There have

been a lot of agreements that you are sceptical about ring fencing. We

are focused on shaking up the economy and improving our public

finances. Why haven't you done that? At the end of the day we will be

accountable but we are committed to doing that. You are running out of

time, will you do it? I hope we can find the Parliamentary time, but

even if we don't, we have acted as if that law is in place and we have

already met 0.7% commitment. If you are British voter that doesn't

already met 0.7% commitment. If you believe that we should enshrine that

in by law, which means that with a growing economy foreign aid will

rise by definition, and if you think we should be spending less money on

the Ethiopian Spice Girls, for whom should you wrote in the next

election? I think we have a very sensible approach. I don't know what

the various party manifestoes... The only party who thinks we shouldn't

be doing this is UKIP. I think you have to look at the response to both

the Philippines crisis and Children In Need. Of all the steps we are

taking to get the country back on track, it shows the British people

will respond to need when they need it and it is one of the things that

makes Britain's special. Thank you. "It's always winter but

never Christmas" - that's how doctors describe life inside

accident and emergency. The College of Emergency Medicine have warned

that this year could bring the "worst crisis on record". If that

dire prediction comes, expect a spring of political recriminations,

but how prepared are the NHS in England? And what do they make of

this autumnal speculation? Giles has been to Leeds to find out.

This winter has already come to our hospitals. It had an official start

date, November the 3rd. That is when weekly updates are delivered to the

NHS's most senior planners, alerting them to any sudden changes in

patient numbers coming in. Where do they numbers register most then

A They are the barometer for what is going on everywhere else, and

they are the pressure point, so if the system is beginning to struggle

then it is in the A department that we see the problems. It is not

that the problems are the A departments, but they are the place

where it all comes together. Plans to tackle those problems start being

drawn up in May and they look at trends, even taking notice of any

flu epidemics in New Zealand. They also look at the amount of bets. But

the weather, economic realities, structural reforms, and changes to

the general health of the population, are all factors they

have to consider. We get huge amounts of information through the

winter in order to help the NHS be the best it can be, but we had to

redouble our efforts this year because we expected to be a

difficult winter. We know the NHS is stretched so we are working hard to

be as good as we can be. That means they are looking at winter staffing

levels, plans to ask for help from neighbouring hospitals, and

dovetailing help with GP surgeries, and still having the ability to move

up an extra gear, a rehearsed emergency plan if the NHS had to

face a major disease pandemic. You spend any time in any of our

hospitals and you realise the NHS knows that winter is coming and they

are making plans, but you also get a palpable feeling amongst health

workers across the entire system that they do get fed up of being

used as a political football. Doctors and all health care

professionals are frustrated about the politics that surrounds the NHS

in health care. They go to work to treat patients as best as they can,

and the political knock-about does not help anyone. I find it

frustrating when there is a commentary that suggests the NHS

does not planned, when it is surprised by winter, and wherever

that comes from it is hard to take, knowing how much we do nationally

and how much our hard working front line staff are doing. When the

Coalition have recently tried to open up the NHS to be a more

independent body, it is clear the NHS feel they have had an unhealthy

dose of political wrangling between parties on policy. The NHS is not

infallible or making any guarantees, but they seem confident that they

and their patients can survive the winter.

Joining me now from Salford in the Shadow Health Secretary, Andy

Burnham. Tell me this, if you were health secretary now, you just took

over in an emergency election, what would you do to avoid another winter

crisis? I would immediately halt the closure of NHS walk-in centres. We

heard this week that around one in four walk-in centres are closed so

it makes no sense whatsoever for the Government to allow the continued

closure of them. I would put nurses back on the end of phones and

restore an NHS direct style service. The new 111 service is not in a

position to provide help to people this winter. I think the time has

come to rethink how the NHS care is particularly for older

come to rethink how the NHS care is propose the full integration of

health and social care. It cannot make any sense any more to have this

approach where we cut social care and let elderly people drift to

hospitals in greater numbers. We have two rethink it as a whole

service. So you would repeal some of the Tory reforms and move

commissioning to local authorities so the NHS should brace itself for

another major top-down health reorganisation? No, unlike Andrew

Lansley I will work with the organisations ie inherit. He could

work with primary care trusts but he turned it upside down when it needed

stability. I will not do that but I will repeal the health and social

care act because last week we heard that hospitals and health services

cannot get on and make sensible merger collaborations because of

this nonsense now that the NHS is bound by competition law. Let me get

your views on a number of ideas that have been floated either by the

press or the Coalition. We haven't got much time. Do you welcome the

plan to bring back named GPs for over 75s? Yes, but it has got harder

to get the GP appointment under this Government because David

to get the GP appointment under this scrapped the 48-hour guarantee that

Tony Blair brought in. He was challenged in the 2005 election

about the difficulty of getting a GP appointment, and Tony Blair brought

in the commitment that people should be able to get that within 48

hours. That has now been scrapped. Do you welcome the idea of allowing

everyone to choose their own GP surgery even if it is not in our

traditional catchment area? I proposed that just before the last

election, so yes. Do you welcome the idea of how a practice is being

rated being a matter of public record, and of us knowing how much,

at least from the NHS, our GP earns? Of course, every political party

supports transparency in Of course, every political party

More information for the public of that kind is a good thing. Do you

welcome this plan to make it will form the collect in an NHS hospital

-- make wilful neglect a criminal offence. It is important to say you

can't pick and mix these recommendations, you can't say we

will have that one and not the others. It was a balanced package

that Sir Robert Francis put forward. My message is that it must be

permitted in full. If we are to learn the lessons, the whole package

must be addressed, and that includes safe staffing levels across the NHS.

Staff have a responsible to two patients at the government also has

responsible at T2 NHS staff and it should not let them work in

understaffed, unsafe conditions -- a responsibility to NHS staff. Is

there a part of the 2004 agreements that you regret and should be

undone? A lot of myths have been built up about the contract. When it

came in, there was a huge shortage of GPs across the country. Some

communities struggle to recruit. This myth that the government have

built, that the 2004 GP contract is responsible for the AM decries is,

it is spin of the worst possible kind -- the A crisis. You would

redo that contract? It was redone under our time in government and

change to make it better under our time in government and

money. GPs should be focused on improving the health of their

patients and that is a very good principle. Not so great if you can't

get 24-hour access. I agree with that. We brought in evening and

weekend opening for GPs. That is another thing that has gone in

reverse under Mr Cameron. It is much harder to get a GP appointment under

him and that is one of the reasons why A is an oppressor. -- under

pressure. What do you make of the review into intimidatory tactics by

unions? If there has been intimidation, it is unacceptable,

and that should apply to unions as well as employers. Was Unite wrong

to turn up and demonstrate? I don't well as employers. Was Unite wrong

know the details, this review will look into that presumably. I need

reassurance that this is not a pretty cool call by Mr Cameron on

the designed to appear near the election -- that this is not a

political call. Are you sponsored by unite? No. Do you get any money from

Unite? No. What have you done wrong? It seems others are getting money

from Unite. Can I tell you what I think is the scandal of British

party political funding, two health care companies have given ?1.5

million in donations to the Tory party, they have ?1.5 billion in NHS

contracts. I wonder why you don't spend much time talking about that

and obsess over trade union funding. We are happy to talk about that. We

see from e-mails that Mr Miliband's closest advisers regard Mr Ed Balls

as a bit of a nightmare, do you see a bit of a nightmare about him as

well? I don't at all, he is a very good friend. I can't believe that

you are talking about those e-mails on a national political programme.

My goodness, you obviously scraping the barrel today. I have been in

front-line labour politics for 20 years. I can't remember the front

bench and the wider party being as united as it is today and it is a

great credit to Ed Miliband and Ed Balls. We are going into a general

election and we are going to get rid of a pretty disastrous coalition

government. It was worth spending a few seconds

government. It was worth spending a having nightmares. Thank you for

joining me. It's just gone 11:30am. You're

watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be

talking to the MP accused of using his

Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. It's

the newest party on the block, but can NI21 deliver realistic

alternatives? Its leader Basil McCrea says Stormont should be given

more tax powers. It will increase accountability, it will make a

greater propensity for local parties to work together, it will make them

more accountable and I think it will make for better government.

Also up for discussion today - its last incarnation was in 2002, but

now the SDLP wants to see a return of the Civic Forum. Alex Attwood

will be telling me why. The economy is starting to grow, but when will

people's standard of living increase? We'll be asking if we're

finally beginning to emerge from the economic downturn. And to discuss

all of that and more, I'm joined by the political correspondent of the

News Letter, Sam McBride, and the University of Ulster's Dr Cathy

Gormley-Heenan. The party political conference season is well and truly

upon us. Yesterday it was the turn of the newest party here, NI21. Its

leader, Basil McCrea, wants Westminster to allow local

politicians the authority to raise or reduce the levels of income tax

and stamp duty. He set up the party this year, along with John

McCallister, after the two men left the Ulster Unionist Party. Stephen

Walker went along to the party's inaugural conference for Sunday

Politics. Outside Belfast's Europe Hotel, NI21 show their colours.

Inside they claimed to have found a new political formula. This marks

the first opportunity for NI21 to map out in detail some of their

policies. But what do their activists and supporters make of

their plans, in particular the idea that the Executive could control

levels of income tax? I think it is an aspiration. If we want to grow up

as a party and the country, we should be looking at saying we need

responsibility for ourselves. I am happy in my income tax that I am

contributing, it involves local people. Income tax is where the

finances come from, and if you control how you tax people, the more

power that comes to Stormont the better and the more effective

parliament can be. Basil McCrea believes greater fiscal powers will

make devolution stronger. It will increase accountability, it will

help Northern Ireland parties to work together, and I think it will

make for better government. What do the Business Committee think? We

need to be cautious in the steps we take in that. We have been at the

forefront of the devolution of corporation tax. If you go into more

broad measures such as income tax, it requires a lot more to be done

before we can be sure where that path will go. Other policies

included an official opposition at Stormont and the First and Deputy

First Minister becoming Stormont and the First and Deputy

ministers. Peter and Martin are joined. One cannot order a fish

supper without the other one. Let's call it what it is, a joint office.

So how should we now view NI21? You look at people around the room, this

is the first time they have come to politics. But are they ready for the

hard slog of standing in elections, pounding the puck past and knocking

on doors? That will be a challenge to get past this idealism and a

vague feeling that things aren't right and translated into commitment

to do something. So their first conference is over but another first

is on the horizon. Next to me the Council and European elections

resent NI21 with their first electoral test.

Let's get some reaction from my guests, Cathy Gormley-Heenan and Sam

McBride. Cathy, Basil's big thought, local politicians being

able to set income tax and stamp levelled levels. Good idea? Yes, I

am glad he rated because Northern Ireland has declared itself from the

debate on tax, up to this point we have had some tentative

conversations about fiscal devolution and autonomy but nothing

more substantial. Sam, is that how you see it? People talk about this

before but it never happens. The argument for work which was made

yesterday is that it helps Stormont grow up, it lets them raise their

own taxes so grow up, it lets them raise their

about cuts here or there, they need to take responsibility themselves

and that is a good argument. The problem is that Northern Ireland

gets a huge help from Westminster, millions of pounds each year. If

Northern Ireland races all its own income tax, it would be obvious how

much we get from Westminster. Those sorts of questions weren't really

addressed. Another notion was getting rid of the office of First

Minister and Deputy First Minister and calling it it is -- what it is,

a joint office. I imagine that would inflame matters in some quarters.

This would raise by the Alliance in 2007 and Martin McGuinness had asked

the Hansard team to change the D in OFMDFM to a small deed to signify

that it is a joint office, so there have been some moves at signifying

that this is a joint office, which it is but it has never been

explicitly said, and I think the NI21 remarks shine a spotlight on

that. The issue of an opposition was raised. John McCallister's pitch to

be leader of the Austrian party was about going into opposition. That is

what differentiates them from the Alliance Party, which is their big

task. There was some meat on the bones of what the opposition stuff

would mean but also the role of the speaker, which is technical but

crucial in making the speaker more like the speaker at

crucial in making the speaker more where they have less control, the

parties have less control of that process. Did you get the sense it

was a successful conference or will it weather on the vine? It was a

successful conference in the short space of time they had. A lot of

young people, energy, Basil McCrea's speech was a bit rambling

but there were things that enthused people. Liam Clarke's point, lots of

youthful enthusiasm but will it translate to political commitment? I

think it will. One strapline was a post-agreement party for a

post-agreement generation, and most people voting for the first time in

the next elections were born as the agreement was signed, so there is an

appetite there. Thank you both for now.

There's been a lot of talk over now.

past week about jobs and business in general, and mention even of the

"green shoots" of recovery. But is that too optimistic? In a moment

I'll be talking to the chair of the Assembly's Finance Committee, Daithi

McKay, and David McIlveen, who sits on the Enterprise Trade and

Investment Committee. But first, our economics and business editor, John

Campbell, assesses if things are really improving, and if there are

hard facts to back up the feel-good factor. The economy is recovering

but the pace of growth is slow. We have a long way to go before we get

back to where we were before the recession. There were a couple of

bits of good news, the decline in unemployment is continuing and some

evidence that job creation has picked up. Inflation also fell this

week but other figures show the service sector, the biggest part of

the local economy, shrank during the year, but most economists say the

growth we have seen it not pick up until the third quarter during the

summer months. Next week, with the new instalment of the house price

index, expect that to show an increase in transaction but not

prices, we also get a survey of earnings which will show how much

pressure household budgets are under, because a question for the

economy is how can it grow if people's wages are falling in real

terms? John Campbell setting out the stall there. The Sinn Fein MLA

Daithi McKay is the chair of the Assembly's Finance Committee. He's

with me now, along with the DUP's David McIlveen, who's private

secretary to the Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton. John ended his

comments with an interesting assessment, which may be a good

place to dart. How can the economy grow if wages are static or

place to dart. How can the economy in real terms? Over the past nine

months, there has been a continuing fall in the employment rate. We have

seen more good news stories, more direct foreign investment and

exports are up, which indicates indigenous businesses are doing

well, so the elephant in the room is the cost of living. People go to the

shops on a weekly basis and spend over ?100 each time, the cost of

goods is another issue, and a lot of these issues can be dealt with if

you take control of fiscal powers, as was referred to in your previous

peace. Are you backing Basil McCrea in that demand? They are backing us

because we raised the issue, but income tax and stamp duty were two

issues raised a couple of weeks ago on some commission recommendations

so it is limited in terms of their scope. Do you agree, David McIlveen,

that the parties at Stormont and Simon Hamilton has to get his hands

on the real evils of power, the capacity to raise or lower income

tax? The term green shoots of recovery I would hope is permanently

etched from vocabulary, because we have to realise whom and bust did

not work and we now need a level head to ensure our economy grows at

a sustainable rate. I do not believe devolving fiscal powers to Stormont

is the best way forward, surely because it is fantasy politics.

Conservative estimations indicate we received ?11 billion more each year

then what we sent in tax receipts. That is around ?6,500 for every

citizen of Northern Ireland. I don't know about Sinn Fein or NI21, but if

they want to go to the electorate and tell them they will give them a

?6,500 greater tax bill, they are braver amend alive. What about stamp

duty? These things come as a part -- at a cost. We have targeted requests

for fiscal powers to areas where we believe we can gain an overall

economic benefit. Corporation tax, air traffic duty. So should we just

soak it up? Wages are static or falling, you don't want the levers

of power to change things, which some people think would be an

important asset. We just have to get on with it? There are two things we

can do. We can keep household taxes low and this Assembly has delivered

that. Second, we can create better higher paid jobs. We know our

economy is too reliant on the public sector. There have been more

private-sector jobs created in the last two years then in the history

of Northern Ireland. That is good news. Daithi McKay, so you are

engaged in in fantasy politics? Dublin had chances in terms of the

taxes down there. We don't have that here, we have guesses based on the

surveys 's David referred to. They are not based on actual figures.

Dublin is a sovereign state in control of its own affairs, the

reality for us is that we are part of the UK economy. You have to

accept that. I don't accept that. It is backed at the moment. But to get

back to fiscal powers, what we are entitled to is accurate figures in

terms of taxes we raise so we can go to London with a stronger hand when

it comes to the economy. But look at corporation tax. That was trailed as

a great panacea but it hasn't happened and now we are told it is

on the long finger and will come at a cost. It is a risky thing to

engage. We have to take risks. You cannot keep throwing out estimates

and scaring people off because ultimately this economy will not go

anywhere. In terms of moving this issue forward, we need a proper,

mature debate as is happening in Wales and Scotland. The real problem

is the dogma that has been introduced by Unionist politicians

because when Sammy Wilson, the previous Finance Minister, was

questioned about devolution, he said he would be opposed to it because he

is a Unionist. That does not cut it with the Business Committee. -- with

the people who want to see this happen. You should be practical, not

dogmatic? We have to use devolution to our best advantage and it is

ironic we have a Sinn Fein representative saying we should be

more like what is happening across the border. I struggle to find

anyone in Northern Ireland today who would want to be in an economy which

has undergone such extreme austerity as Republic of Ireland has had to

face. Briefly, can you comment on the petrol bomb attack on an

Alliance Party office in East Belfast last night? Naomi Long says

it's an attack on democracy. Is she right? I agree entirely with that.

We have experienced many attacks on our people on property we are no

stranger to how that feels. This is an attack on democracy. It's not

only was an attack on an elected representative's office but it could

have damaged adjoining premises. I don't see how that is good for East

Belfast. Our thoughts should be with Naomi and all their elected

representatives working in that office and their families because

this has a huge impact that people do not realise, but in terms of

Belfast, we do not want to do not realise, but in terms of

repeat of what happened here before. We want to see a happy and

productive Christmas and see businesses grow and flourish as they

should have done this year. Thank you both. Time now for a look at

what's been making the headlines in the political week gone past.

Tributes were paid to one of the SDLP's founders. From Cranfield to

Crossgar, everyone had the highest respect for Edinburgh they. Stormont

was told to hurry up welfare reform. ?400 million a month does not sound

a lot but it will be 60 million in the first year. Another bill was

killed by Mark H Durkan. I am not scrapping the national parks built

but I am shelving it. Parading talks continued but there was no

breakthrough. They were helpful meetings. That does not mean there

was a miracle. And Edwin Poots gave us some marriage guidance. Many

people who are heterosexual desire lots of other folks. Those of us who

are married should not be doing that, so people can resist urges.

Now, if you've been a keen follower of local politics for a while,

you'll very probably recall the Civil Forum. It was set up in 2000

to address pressing social economic and cultural matters. However, its

life was short-lived, and it hasn't met since 2002. Tomorrow, the

Assembly will debate an SDLP motion to recall it by as soon as the end

of January. Let's hear more from Alex Attwood, who's proposed the

motion. Thank you for joining us. It met 12 times between 2000 and 2002,

and then slipped away into the shadows. Doesn't it look a bit like

a relic of the past at this stage? I think the greater strength of

society today and over the last ten or 20 years has been the party of

our civic groups. They held this place together during the years of

conflict and they are the people, and Richard Haass could tell you

this, who have given the wisest advice to this new talks process. I

think it is time now to scale up the input of civic society into our

politics, and doing so will make politics more honest than we have

seen recently. Do we really need a Civic Forum to do that, because you

have said there have been hundreds of submissions from civic society to

the house is all talks without this form? Lets take as an example the

victims form, add all the indications are that while its work

is challenging, it has shaken up well and that creates a better

understanding of the issues around victims and helps politicians to do

what has to be done on their behalf. In respect of civic groups,

we need to build an inclusive society, we need to capture all

those who give good authority and advice. Creating a new Civic Forum

is one way of doing so, and in my view will create a great point of

contrast between the failure of party politics and the strength of

civic groups. But isn't this a spectacular own goal on your part

because by calling for the reintroduction of the Civic Forum,

you are admitting our politicians have failed us. Yes, we have. Look

around us at the flags and parades dispute, look at politics degrading.

Some parties clearly had a bigger responsibility to govern and they

have the biggest failure in not leading or governing. But your party

has failed to. It is part of that overall failure? I think politics

has failed people in Northern Ireland. I think it is more true for

some parties than others, but how are we going to have the image of