04/03/2012 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

In Northern Ireland are we hear from the justice minister David

Ford as another supergrass trial collapses.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1773 seconds

A are struggling homeowners here Welcome to the programme.

Are we ready for the benefit changes coming down the line from

London? Is it fair to treat the whole of the UK the same way?

hoping the Executive will take the opportunity to include some

commitment to initiatives which will help to manage the situation

for people here. Happiest in the UK, apparently. We will be finding out

from two of our MLA is what keeps them smiling.

We start today with justice, and the Department lives to fight

another day after the Assembly back to its survival beyond May's sunset

clause. Friday saw the collapse of yet another loyalist court case

after four men walked free after that prosecution failed to present

any evidence. The judge rejected testimony saying it was infected

with lies. David Ford is worth a. Let's start with that child. The

lack of conviction has been described as supergrass Mark two.

Since the law was changed in 2005 there have to be reasons why

assisting offenders get reductions in sentences. It is clear, open and

transparent. The judge in this case said there was a case to answer

because when the prosecution evidence closed there was an

application by the defence to have the case thrown out. And he

proceeded at that stage, so clearly there were issues to be determined.

The conviction was not on the base of the supergrass evidence. No. But

the issue is not about whether we're talking simply about

supergrasses, it is if we have an open and transparent way that shows

how it defendants are being treated. But the outcome is the same. It did

not work in the 1980s because a discredited the justice system, and

surely it is in danger of doing it this time. The judge except at the

operation of the law as it currently is. He made no

recommendations for changes in the law. What he said was the evidence

did not stand up to prove that it be for all reasonable doubt. The

Public Prosecution Service determine whether they think there

is a case to answer, up one which is worth putting before a judge and

the judge determines. That is the way the system works. There are

other cases in the pipeline using this accomplice evidence. Is there

anything you can do us justice minister to sure we're not back in

his position in two or three years' time? It is not my job to second

guess the job of the police, or to second-guess what a judge

determines. It would be my job to go to the Assembly if there were

regions to -- reasons to change that law. If more cases fail, do

you think there would be more reason to change the law? They cost

an enormous amount of money. have seen a conviction using this

evidence. The case of Brown were eight conviction was upheld on

appeal. The judge in that occasion said the law worked. We have had

similar cases under the same lob. These have carried through across

the water as well. It is not that the law was wrong, it is that the

evidence did not persuade a judge beyond all reasonable doubt. Given

the hundreds of interviews that were carried out with these

brothers, are there not people you could look in and say, that was

never going to persuade a judge? You are now asking me to be the

Director of Public Prosecutions, that is not my job. But it is your

job to make sure we all have faith in the justice system, is it not?

Then you should listen to what the judge said. The legislation works.

The evidence did not add up. What about what the director of

prosecutions has been saying this week. 50% of cases they get from

the police have to go back. Some of them in very serious cases. Is

there nothing you can do about that to try and speed up the system and

make the process better, the police files more robust? As I understand,

he did not say 50% of all cases, where he said 50% of serious cases.

That is why I am making the issue of speeding up just as one of my

priorities. That is why I went to the Criminal Justice Board and my

second week in of us whether senior officers of all the agencies come

together, that is why I have set up a group which we have had judicial

involvement with to see how we address this issue of the delay.

One of the key issues is getting better working between the police

and the PPS. We have greater engagement between them, and we

have much more constructive and positive atmosphere. At think the

new director and then the assistant chief constable are helping it in

that respect. There is a lot still to do, but I believe we are

starting to see improvements. is a review going on about the

relationship between the BPs and the Department of Justice.

Obviously we have to wait to find out, but do you need more powers as

the minister of justice? One of the things not in the review his powers

for the minister. It looks at things out the role of the

Attorney-General. I do not think there is any question that the

Ministry of Justice would have any direct role in the decisions of the

DPP. The issues are with the work we're doing and with the Criminal

Justice Board to speed things up, to enhance co-operation and find

better ways of working. That has a knock-on effect right the way

through the system. Almost a third of those in prison are there on

demand because it has taken so long to get them to trial. That means it

is more difficult to work with them. I want to ask you about divided

societies. Since you have been justice minister we have had a

Peace Wall come down. What else is coming up in the future? There's a

lot of work going on in different areas. You may have seen a couple

of weeks ago that its significant amount of money has been given to

reduce tensions in communities. We have now got into the programme for

government a specific proposal for working to reduce tensions, to

remove these barriers. That is a sign of partnership between local

communities, my department, and number of agencies we are all

working together to bring about the circumstances were barriers can be

opened. We have seen a lot of progress in the last few months.

There are other programmes on the way. Let's bring on our guests,

Caitriona Ruane and, obviously you colleague was giving his operation

-- opposition to the supergrass trials. What is Sinn Fein's

alternative? The minister spoke about the supergrass trial, saying

they stood up in court. I would question the legislation that

underpins these trials. We saw in the past what happened when we had

supergrass trials. It undermined the legal system. Using this

legislation has the potential to further undermine the legal system.

The alternatives are a good policing, good court work, and

making sure that the hard graft is done in building up evidence. Not

being expedient, not taking short cuts. The other point here is that

the minister mentioned Mark Haddock. The victims of the UVF did not get

just as this week. The justice they will get is when we get absolute

truth. One of the big factors in all this is the role of agents of

the state and the role it played. When you get into the realms of the

murky world of criminals, it is difficult to get evidence from

people. Surely it worked in the case in Dublin with that of a case

of the murdered journalist. It has been used in other jurisdictions.

Are they not occasions when it can bring successful prosecutions?

not believe we should be taking short cuts in relation to the

gathering of evidence. I have been a human rights activist all my life.

If you look at where we have good justice systems, it is where you

abide by the rule of law. Where you have good standards of human rights

compliance legislation. The legislation these trials were

carried out under his flawed legislation. What are your

constituents saying about the supergrass trials? I do not often

find myself in a position where I agree with Katrina Rwanda, but I

agree with her on this case. -- Katrina row man. I believe that

that supergrass trials are easily discredited. I believe there has to

be a better way of bringing in these people to justice. Minister,

a final word from you. It does appear that people are unhappy

across this across the political divide. Just to remind David, we

did have a successful case a couple of years ago. The two dreadful

murders were brown was convicted on the evidence of an accomplice who

got a reduced sentence for his part. He was a credible witness who stood

up in court. But it does not happen often enough, and that is the

problem. Clearly there is difficulty, but when you have

circumstances were two people took part in criminal activity and are

prepared to give evidence, we have to treat that very seriously.

Unlike what happened previously, there are real issues about

insuring that the director has referred back the lenient sentences

for consideration as to whether the Stuart brothers should have

received those lenient sentences. That is something which do not

happen previously. We will have to leave it there.

House prices and incomes are falling and repossessions are

rising. That is the reality for thousands of homeowners struggling

to pay their mortgage. What are local politicians doing to help

those who face using their homes. - Property auctions are for the quick

and of the brave. For those who hold their nerve, there are Burke -

- bargains to be had. At this auction most of the properties were

repossessions. Houses are being sold a 20,000, 25,000. We're

attempting to hold four auctions this year. We advertise this three

weeks ago, and the response we have got has been tremendous. Many of

the homes were snapped up by cash rich investors. I do not think the

banks want to lend anyone money, let alone the young people. Young

people are less likely to hold down a job. What did you think of the

prices? Brilliant. I could not get over it. Houses were going for

nothing. Houses you could very easily turn into a dream home.

person's dream is another's nightmare. The programme has spoken

to David who missed his mortgage payments when he was injured and

unable to work. Everything went pear-shaped. Instead of getting in

touch with that mortgage company, I buried my head in the ground

thinking the problems would go wave. I was getting depressed and not

sleeping. Eventually the letters were coming in about repossessions.

You are up in court and then it is repossession. Dividend up in the

High Court, but thanks to the help of charities he was able to keep

his home and reduce his mortgage repayments. Between April and 20th

September 10 Mortgage lenders made a lot of money. The number of cases

that went as far as repossession surged to nearly 1000. An increase

of nearly 50%. It used to take a year from one an

order was granted to when a householder could be evicted. Signs

to the allocation of resources to the enforcement of judgment offers

that time has come down to six months. Northern Ireland has the

highest level of repossession activity compared to anywhere in

the UK. What we really need to see is some collective action on behalf

of our Executive here locally. That is what we have been asking for.

Also the programme for government is due very shore leave. We are

hoping that the Executive will take the opportunity there to conclude

some commitment to initiatives that would help to manage the situation

for people here and mitigate the impact. The minister has previously

expressed support for the idea of a mortgage rescue scheme here, but to

DST told us in a statement they believe there would only help a

small proportion of those facing repossession or would be extremely

expensive to operate. It seems unlikely the department will

replicate the scheme is currently Grim news for people who are

struggling to pay these mortgages. It is indeed. Than the news

yesterday were some other banks and building societies are about to

increase their mortgage lending rates, if they start others will

follow. This will exacerbate the problem. There are so many people

out there and the figures that had just been given indicate that they

have risen in 2011 by 50%. Katrina Rwanda, your party is one of the

strongest in the Executive. This issue of parity keeps coming out.

Here is a classic example of where we are losing out. What we need to

do is everything we can do to support people who are suffering

dreadfully during these difficult economic times. This comes under

two ministers in the Executive. Margaret Ritchie told us she was

going to bring a mortgage relief scheme and we are still awaiting

that. It looks like it will not happen. Should Sinn Fein not be

putting more pressure on? We are very clear that housing

associations should be given the power to buy some of the houses

that are being repossessed and then ran them back to people. David Ford

was just here, his department also has a responsibility. They do give

advice to people going to court. But in England there is funding for

legal-aid, here in the north of Ireland there is not that same

funding. People are the disadvantaged taking on big banks.

We have to look at the role of banks in our economic situation.

They are putting some of the most vulnerable in court without legal

advice. I do want to pay tribute to the housing rights associations,

they are doing good work but not getting the support they deserve.

It has finally been confirmed, despite the recession, we are the

happiest area in the UK. Or are we? The week began with the First

Minister explaining one idea at on how to deal with the past. There

should be a storytelling archive, we have talked about that even at

the new centre we are building. MLA even had trouble remembering

the past. The member of the Covent was signed this year, 100 years ago.

Pensioners are told their free bus passes might have to go.

Terry George arrived in style in Holywood, picking up an Oscar. Back

home we were told we were the happiest in the UK, but David

Cameron needed some convincing. am delighted to hear the people of

Northern Ireland are the happiest in the UK, I have to say to the

honourable gentleman, their representatives in this House do

not always give that impression. David McClarty, are we really happy

or rather rest of the UK even more miserable than us? We are a happy

people, but some of us do not tell our faces that we are. The people

here have a wonderful sense of humour, and even in hard times we

see the humour in it. That is the great thing about being from

Northern Ireland. You mentioned being a human rights activists,

that obviously means a lot of problems you're looking at. What

keeps you smiling? We live in a beautiful island, it is green.

We're coming up to St Patrick's Day and everyone is celebrating. After

I leave here I'm going to plant my potatoes. And my little grandchild