05/11/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


05/11/2017

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning, everyone,

and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is your guide to everything

that's happening in the world

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of politics this Sunday morning.

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On today's show:

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Theresa May's right-hand man

Damian Green has denied claims that

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police found pornography

on a computer in his office in 2008.

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He says the allegations by a former

police chief are "political smears."

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With claims of sexual harassment

at Westminster growing by the day,

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can either Theresa May

or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

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to grips with a scandal

threatening to engulf

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the entire political class?

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We'll ask a minister and senior

member of the Shadow Cabinet.

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And some on the left of politics

have been gathering to mark 100

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And coming up here:

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The DUP wants direct rule ministers

in place within weeks we'll hear

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from the shadow Secretary of State,

and find out how frustrating

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the stalemate is for

Stormont's smaller parties.

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So there's plenty of

explosive political news

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to get you in the mood

for bonfire night -

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and with me as usual,

three journalists who know quite

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a bit about parliamentary plots -

if rather less about

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gunpowder and treason.

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It's Tom Newton Dunn,

Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

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So what are the big political

stories making the news this Sunday?

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Well, the papers are brimming

with further allegations against MPs

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in the sexual harassment scandal,

which according to one newspaper has

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left Westminster frozen in fear.

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First Secretary of State Damian

Green, already under

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investigation over allegations -

which he strongly denies -

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of propositioning a female activist,

is the subject of new claims that

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police discovered pornography

on a computer in his Westminster

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office in 2008.

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Mr Green denies the allegation,

made by former senior

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police officer Bob Quick,

saying it is "completely untrue,"

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and adding that he is the victim

of disreputable "political smears."

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Michael Fallon, who resigned

as Defence Secretary this week

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over his past behaviour,

is also subject to fresh claims

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he lunged at a female journalist

in 2003 after a lunch.

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Labour is facing questions

over its handling of sexual

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misconduct allegations.

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This morning Shadow Cabinet minister

Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

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on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew

about alleged misconduct by MP

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Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted

to the Shadow Cabinet.

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And there is a reminder that normal

political life goes on,

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with reports that the Cabinet has

agreed to put housing at the heart

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of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

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Well, let's hear from

Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

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she was on the Andrew Marr Show

earlier talking about the claims

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against her Cabinet colleague Damian

Green.

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Absolutely not. I think it is

something that will take place in

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terms of clearing out Westminster of

that sort of behaviour, and I think

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that Westminster afterwards,

including the Government, will be

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better for it. When we are confident

that men and women can work any

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respectful environment and people on

the receiving end of abuse of power

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can come forward. That will be a

positive thing.

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Let's see what our panel make of

this fairly explosive week. Good

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morning to all of you. Starting with

you, Steve. Not a party political

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issue but the Tories are in

Government. How much harder for them

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is it an Labour?

Always harder when

you are in Government because it

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makes governing almost impossible.

And the wider context is a Prime

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Minister who lost her overall

majority a few months ago and

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actually that is the context of

everything. When you are having to

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deal with the scandal of such

unpredictability, where the

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terms are so imprecise, it is a

"lunge", a resignation issue, to use

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that term, and nightmare. I don't

think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

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bring down governments, but it makes

governing for Theresa May a form of

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political health.

Isabel Oakeshott,

Damian Green has denied all

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allegations made against him, but

there are more this morning. He is

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being investigated by the Cabinet

Office at the moment. If Theresa May

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were to effectively lose her Deputy

Prime Minister, has serious without

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the?

I think very serious indeed. I

think it is very significant and

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strange he was not defended in the

Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

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clip we saw today, she didn't say I

am certain he will survive, and I am

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beginning to feel that Damian may

not survive this. We don't know

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whether it is the last of the

allegations that may come out in

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relation to him. It seems to me that

the allegations were previously of a

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rather minor order, but this seems

to have escalated. And I think one

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of the big problems for Theresa May,

and there are the many at the

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moment, for months we have been

saying that this Government has no

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bandwidth to do anything except

Brexit and right now she can't even

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do Brexit. What is the point of it

all?

It is important to make clear

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not only that Damian Green denies

all of these allegations, but the

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computer mentioned was in a shared

office so there is no reason it

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would definitely be his

# No guarantee it would definitely

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be his. But we have had two MPs on

television this morning, Anna

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Soubry, saying he should stand down.

There is an awful lot going on here.

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It is not just a pretty awful sexual

harassment scandal. There are also

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without a doubt MPs, police

officers, going about settling

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scores. For me I have to say for our

pretty discredited police officer

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Bob Quick, to make accusations

against serving Cabinet minister, to

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suggest he should go for extreme

pornography on computers he may or

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may not have known, it may be

extremely distasteful but it is

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alarming for democracy to have

ex-police officers like this coming

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in and trying to play with

democracy. Some politicians are also

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meeting claims, some for the right

reasons to get the allegations out

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there and so on but others for their

own agendas and all of this puts the

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Prime Minister in an unbelievably

hard situation. I agree with Steve

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and Isabel, she desperately needs

two show leadership in all this, but

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every way she could turn there are

incredible downfalls, people blaming

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her for trying to get to the bottom

of all this. It is very people who

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she is relying on for her

leadership, the very Tory MPs the

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support she can't lose.

It is not

just the Tory party and of course

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Jeremy Corbyn will be making a

speech later today where this will

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inevitably and there are accusations

about how the senior leadership in

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the Labour Party have handled this.

What about that situation?

Yes, but

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the Government is much harder

because you are meant to be doing

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10,000 other things at the same

time. This is about a deregulated

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work environment. For all those who

say, I hate the way Britain is too

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regulated, this is what happens in a

deregulated work environment. The

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House of Commons has no HR or

whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

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actually don't have much power but

they do have power over who the

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point and how to treat them. I think

this is the way forward in terms of

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the practical outcome, but it is

across the political spectrum.

But

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it is unclear what it will be. Can

the party sort this out?

I'm not

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sure I entirely agree, Steve, you

cannot regulate all human

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interaction and a lot of these

stories have been about interactions

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between politicians and journalists

alike, who have gone out for lunch,

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chosen to drink, presumably to

create an informal atmosphere, and

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at what point is a step towards

somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

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the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You

can't regulate that sort of thing.

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Throughout the programme will come

back to some of these things and how

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they might be regulated.

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Now, the Home Secretary has

also today been talking

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about what she calls the "moral

duty" of social media companies

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to stop child sexual exploitation,

ahead of a meeting with her US

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counterparts this week.

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We're joined now by the Home Office

minister Sarah Newton -

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she's in our Truro studio.

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Thanks very much for coming in to

speak the first night. I want to

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talk to you about the Government's

efforts to tackle child pornography,

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but let's pick up on some of the

sexual harassment issues at

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Westminster first. Two of your

parliamentary colleagues this

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morning saying they think the first

Secretary of State Damian Green

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should step down whilst being

investigated. Do you agree?

Look, he

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has vigorously denied these

accusations, and the Cabinet Office

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is investigating these accusations,

so we do have processes for when

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ministers have these accusations

made against them so they are

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properly investigated. And that is

what is going on at the moment.

Is

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that process people can be confident

in? He is effectively being

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investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one

of his colleagues.

This is a tried

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and tested process that has stood

the test of time, and it is

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important...

Has it? Surely what we

are learning is it has not stood the

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test of time and that in fact

allegations like this have been

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swept under the carpet and ignored

for years and years in Westminster,

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exactly what we are learning right

now.

I think you are conflating two

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things they are, and what we really

do need to do is look at the whole

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range of allegations people have

been making, and make sure

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Parliament is a safe place for

people to work, a respectful

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environment for people who have been

subjected to harassment or bullying

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or inappropriate behaviour, so that

they feel confident to come forward

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knowing they will be listened to,

that there will be an open and

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transparent and fair to everyone

concerned process for getting to the

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bottom of it, and that is exactly

what the Prime Minister and the

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Leader of the Cows have set out,

Prime Minister's meeting with all

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the leaders of the parties tomorrow

to set out a proper process so we

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can modernise the work environment

at Westminster -- leader of the

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House have set out.

You think Damian

Green should remain in the Cabinet

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well being investigated?

That will

be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

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thinks the misdemeanours have a

basis, that he should stand aside,

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that will be the recommendation. I

will not second the inquiry on what

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Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.

You were

in the Whips' Office yourself for a

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year. And much has been said this

week of the whips being in receipt

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of a lot of information about bad

behaviour, and instead of reporting

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it to authorities they were using it

as ammunition. Was that your

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experience?

Absolutely not. I was at

the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

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yes, I heard about the rumours of a

black spreadsheet, and I can

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certainly say I never saw such a

thing. How I went about my business

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as a whip is really twofold. It is

quite a technical job in many ways,

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about of the Government through the

House, working with the House

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authorities, the opposition. Also...

Did you ever hear rumours of these

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people's bad behaviour?

Sorry?

Did

you ever hear rumours of MPs

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misbehaving, sexual harassment,

allegations are that?

If anybody had

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brought a complaint to me about the

behaviour of one of the MPs who were

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in my flock, I would take that

really seriously, but bull-mac, that

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didn't happen.

You said nobody

brought you a complaint. Did you

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hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't

happen.

About the members of my

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flock? Absolutely not.

Is that the

MPs you were specifically in charge

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of?

I did not have that experience

at all.

Let's move on and talk about

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the Home Secretary's trip to

Washington this week, where she will

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urge tech companies to go further

and faster on online child abuse. We

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have heard a lot from this

Government urging these companies to

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do something. One specific ideas of

what they could do, do you have a

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clear idea of what you are asking

from tech companies?

Absolutely

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right. As you know, this horrendous

crime of child sexual exploitation

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and grooming is constantly evolving

as the opportunities for the

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perpetrators arise. They are now

using live streaming, different

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sorts of platforms, which are

largely controlled by the big

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companies in America. What we really

want them to do is to step up and

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use their huge expertise, used the

huge money they have got, to help

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find technological solutions to read

their sites and rid the opportunity

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of these paedophiles to be able to

groom young people. We need the

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politicians in America to exert

pressure, as well as other

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companies, because these are global

problems. We are not going to solve

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this problem in the UK alone. We

have made a lot of progress, working

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with Facebook and other companies as

well, but we really need to keep one

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step ahead of the technology, one

step ahead of the perpetrators, who

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are using these opportunities to

commit horrendous crimes.

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It was back in 2014 Theresa May for

the Internet companies to do more in

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terms of child abuse online and we

have not seen significant action,

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and it does not appear these kind of

calls from the Government actually

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make difference.

Well, at the moment we are seeing

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the police being able to make about

400 arrests per month, about 500

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children being safeguarded. The

Government itself is investing a lot

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of money in new technology like the

project Arachnid, and making sure

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the police have the specialist

resources they need to go

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undercover, and absolutely find

these perpetrators and bring them to

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justice, but we do need to

constantly have the engagement and

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support of the companies themselves

to invest in further technologies to

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prevent this from happening. As you

say, we have made progress but we

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need to see yet more.

Sarah Newton,

thank you very much for speaking to

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us today.

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Michael Fallon's decision

to resign this week,

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saying his past conduct with women

fell short of the standard expected

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of the Armed Forces, led

to something of a minor reshuffle.

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And the Prime Minister took

Westminster by surprise

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when she announced his replacement,

former Chief Whip and relative

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newcomer to the ministerial

ranks, Gavin Williamson.

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Here he is speaking on the day

of his appointment.

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It's an immense privilege to have

been appointed Secretary

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of State for Defence,

and what we need to be doing

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is continuing to focus

on countering Daesh,

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making sure that our national

security is at the forefront

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of everything that we do,

and we have some of the world's

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greatest armed services,

and it's such a privilege to be able

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to work with them.

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Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,

arrives at the Ministry of Defence

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at a challenging time

for UK defence.

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The Government has promised

an above-inflation increase

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in spending every year

but the Ministry of Defence

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is already committed to finding

£20 billion of savings

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over the next ten years.

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The Cabinet Office is currently

conducting a security review

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which will look at military

capabilities and funding up to 2022,

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while there are continuing

reports of shortages

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of manpower and equipment.

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And if Labour were to win power,

questions persist over

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what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership

would mean for defence budget

0:16:120:16:15

and the traditional cornerstones

of UK defence policy

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like Trident and Nato.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

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secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

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secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Let's talk about defence spending

first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:300:16:35

same thing this Government has which

is an above inflation increase in

0:16:350:16:39

spending every year?

We've been

absolutely clear about that. First

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and foremost we'd meet our

commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:430:16:48

of GDP on defence as is our Nato

commitment and we would match the

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Government's year-on-year 0.5%

increase above inflation. This is

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really important. Labour's always

had a good strong track record of

0:16:570:17:01

spending on defence.

Jeremy Corbyn

seems to have a different view.

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Speaking at a protest in 2010 he

said Labour wanted to fight all the

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cuts except those in the Armed

Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:100:17:14

more cuts taking place. He doesn't

seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:140:17:18

In the manifesto for this year's

election, 2017, he and John

0:17:180:17:23

McDonnell have been absolutely clear

we support the exact words I've been

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using now, at least 2% of the spend

of GDP spent on defence.

Jeremy

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Corbyn's changed his mind on that?

He's been very clear about that and

0:17:320:17:37

it was in our manifesto this year.

You criticised the Government on

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whether they meet their 2%

commitment on defence. You saying

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they were fiddling the figures

because they were including

0:17:470:17:50

pensions. You would strip that out

and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:500:17:55

on defence which doesn't include

pensions?

Technically, the

0:17:550:17:59

Government would argue you are

allowed to include pensions by the

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Nato rules. But we've been very

clear, really, when you're talking

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about defence spending it should

mean defence. When you look at the

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last year of the Labour Government

we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

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very much committed to looking at

what we need in our defence budget

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and looking to the problems they

have now where they can't meet the

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commitments they've made.

You would

sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:260:18:30

In order to live up to these

commitments you have to find an

0:18:300:18:36

extra billion for the defence

budgets because we're not

0:18:360:18:40

calculating pensions anymore?

John

McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:400:18:43

are doing. Putting in the conflict

resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:430:18:48

kept separate. He is well aware of

the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:480:18:53

are certainly very committed to a

defence budget that really does make

0:18:530:18:57

a difference.

I'm not clear whether

you're telling me it will be 2% 69

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spending, excluding pensions?

We

want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:020:19:08

way Labour always calculate it had

up until 2010, not including

0:19:080:19:12

pensions.

A significant increase in

military spending?

We are talking

0:19:120:19:16

about making sure the spending we

need is there because, at the

0:19:160:19:21

current situation, we have with the

current Government, they are

0:19:210:19:24

overstretched. Even the very caution

National Audit Office says they are

0:19:240:19:29

at immense risk of not being able to

meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:290:19:35

they have made. Others talk about a

black hole. You mentioned it that

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£20 billion. There is a real issue

we have to address.

To you know what

0:19:400:19:47

it will cost, how muchedingsal funds

will have to be found?

We have to

0:19:470:19:51

rook at what are the needs at the

time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:510:19:57

make that 2% commitment not

including things which have just

0:19:570:20:01

been brushed in now by the

Conservative Government.

Let's move

0:20:010:20:04

on to a different aspect of defence.

There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:040:20:11

weapons opened at the UN for

signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:110:20:14

already signed it. Would an incoming

Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:140:20:20

The important point here is there

was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:200:20:23

there to be observers from the UK.

There should have been at that

0:20:230:20:28

treaty talks.

That doesn't change

the calculation whether or not an

0:20:280:20:33

incoming Labour Government would

sign that treaty?

We are committed

0:20:330:20:40

to a strong multi-lateral disarming

programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:400:20:45

missing.

This is a multilateral

approach to try to get rid of

0:20:450:20:48

nuclear weapons. What you say you

want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:480:20:53

that treaty?

You we have to look at

how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:530:20:57

somebody clear we want to

de-escalate tensions across the

0:20:570:21:01

world. Work with other nuclear

partners to help stop the

0:21:010:21:06

proliferation of nuclear weapons. We

want to work with those countries

0:21:060:21:10

who feel very strongly about the

treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:100:21:15

have to do that in a multilateral

framework.

This is a multi-lateral

0:21:150:21:21

disarmament framework. Under the

auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:210:21:26

else it could be organised. This is

a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:260:21:29

have been a lifelong campaigner for

disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:290:21:34

will be the first nuclear power to

do so, sign it and lead the way.

We

0:21:340:21:40

need to use our position to be

responsible and call for responsible

0:21:400:21:45

multi-lateral disarmamentment there

was progress made on this in the

0:21:450:21:48

eighties and nineties with

considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:480:21:51

to one side and destroyed. We need

to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:510:21:55

I don't see any presence by the UK

Government at the moment on that

0:21:550:21:58

aagain da. It is not helpful for the

nukes leer nations to be separated

0:21:580:22:03

from the non-nuclear nation in the

these debates.

That's why I don't

0:22:030:22:09

understand why you're not taking the

opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:090:22:13

Government would Take The Stand.

We

should wok together and we should

0:22:130:22:17

use our position as a nuclear power

to work for a multilateral

0:22:170:22:22

disarmament programme.

You were very

clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:220:22:26

Labour Party would keep Trident for

the meantime.

Abs will yously.

We

0:22:260:22:30

know throughout his life, Jeremy

Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:300:22:33

it. He signed up to the manifesto

saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:330:22:40

changed his minds?

The important

thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:400:22:45

Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.

We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:450:22:49

is the Labour Party position.

Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:490:22:54

Leader really believes in that

position?

He believes in democracy

0:22:540:22:57

in the party. That is the Labour

Party position. I don't see that

0:22:570:23:00

position changing at all. He has

said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:000:23:04

that is our Labour Party position.

And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:040:23:08

stood on and will continue to stand

on.

I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:080:23:13

sexual harassment in Westminster. It

is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:130:23:18

Party as the Conservative. It was

not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:180:23:22

your colleague on The Andrew Marr

Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:220:23:25

whether or not the leadership knew

about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:250:23:29

Do you know?

I absolutely do not

know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:290:23:34

why there has to be an

investigation. It is extremely

0:23:340:23:36

important to find out what the

allegations were, exactly what

0:23:360:23:41

happened, who was told and who told

what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:410:23:46

position to see what the situation

is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:460:23:50

has been suspended which is the

cricket thing to do.

Rosie Winterton

0:23:500:23:57

has been outspoken about what she

let the leadership know. If it is

0:23:570:24:02

the case the leadership did know

about these allegations should he

0:24:020:24:05

have been put into the Shadow

Cabinet?

The real question is who

0:24:050:24:09

did know what when.

But what I'm

asking you is...

I am anot going to

0:24:090:24:15

speculate whether there was an if or

whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:150:24:20

information was transmitted. Was it

put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:200:24:24

who was told what, when. Until we

have a full investigation it would

0:24:240:24:28

be inappropriate to comment. What is

absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:280:24:32

this right for the future. We must

have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:320:24:36

with incidents as and when they

occur. And we deal with them

0:24:360:24:41

prepperly in a way which gets to the

bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:410:24:44

it properly.

Why should anyone have

confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:440:24:49

treat issues that seriously when,

firstly there's a question whether

0:24:490:24:53

they knew about Kelvin hop kips and

others have been dissuaded from

0:24:530:24:58

making complaints. Knots just Bex

Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:24:580:25:03

was harassed at a party senior

figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:030:25:07

it was her own fault. It seems as if

there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:070:25:14

Labour to make a complaint.

That's

why we're having a thorough review

0:25:140:25:20

of procedures. We brought in new

procedures in July. We need to

0:25:200:25:24

ensure there's a proper helpline

available. We are appointing an

0:25:240:25:30

independent organisation which will

deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:300:25:32

nobody has to go to somebody they

think might know other people, be

0:25:320:25:36

friends with other people. They can

go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:360:25:41

and private. These are often things

you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:410:25:46

friends about. We will appoint that

organisation and make sure people

0:25:460:25:50

can go there and access to it is

made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:500:25:55

important when people come into a

job, they know if anything does

0:25:550:25:58

happen, they will be able to

complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:25:580:26:02

party members or working in

Westminster.

Thank you for talking

0:26:020:26:08

to us

0:26:080:26:08

For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:080:26:10

on the left of politics,

0:26:100:26:12

this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:120:26:14

to mark the anniversary

of the failed gunpowder

0:26:140:26:16

plot here in Britain,

but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:160:26:18

ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries

led by Lenin seized power

0:26:180:26:21

and ushered in seven

decades of Communist rule.

0:26:210:26:23

For critics, that's something

to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:230:26:24

Elizabeth Glinka went to one event

in London to find out more.

0:26:240:26:26

The 7th November 1917.

0:26:310:26:33

Red Guards under the leadership

of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:330:26:37

Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:370:26:42

This uprising, known

popularly as Red October

0:26:420:26:44

because of the difference

in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:440:26:47

was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:470:26:50

The winds of socialist change had

been blowing for some time.

0:26:500:26:54

The Tsars had resisted reform

and millions toiled in a state

0:26:540:26:59

of almost medieval surfdom.

0:26:590:27:01

Then war.

0:27:010:27:05

Nearly two million

Russians would die.

0:27:050:27:10

The revolution had really begun nine

months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:100:27:15

The world's first socialist

republic was declared.

0:27:150:27:21

October, well that

was the Bolsheviks

0:27:210:27:24

asserting their authority.

0:27:240:27:28

A hundred years on, as this

event at the TUC shows,

0:27:300:27:33

there's still plenty of people

who want to remember and even

0:27:330:27:36

celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:360:27:40

Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:400:27:42

this is an example of historical

development in action,

0:27:420:27:45

the ability of people to club

together and be able to affect

0:27:450:27:49

the discourse of history.

0:27:490:27:50

It was people's first attempt at

trying to build socialism.

0:27:500:27:53

Although there were many terrible

things that happened,

0:27:530:27:56

I think we have to try

and draw from experience.

0:27:560:27:58

Jeremy Corbyn's close friend

and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:27:580:28:01

was chairing the opening session.

0:28:010:28:04

He didn't want to talk to us

but we did manage to speak

0:28:040:28:07

to the daughter of one of the most

famous Communists of all time.

0:28:070:28:13

TRANSLATION:

It's an historic moment

0:28:130:28:16

which opened up possibilities

for further changes

0:28:160:28:19

and allowed other people

to strive for a different world.

0:28:190:28:21

A world, which it seems,

some are still keen to push for.

0:28:210:28:25

We're growing, so there is obviously

a positive reflection.

0:28:250:28:27

There is a lot of negative

propaganda that comes

0:28:270:28:29

from the Cold War period.

0:28:290:28:31

It is harder to talk

to older people maybe.

0:28:310:28:33

But younger people

are quite receptive.

0:28:330:28:35

The events and discussions taking

place here today cover a whole range

0:28:350:28:38

of topics from women's

rights to the Third World

0:28:380:28:41

and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:410:28:44

But there's much less discussion

of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:440:28:48

the purges and the political

repression that would come later.

0:28:480:28:51

We wanted to have this conference

0:28:510:28:54

because we wanted to show it

in a positive light.

0:28:540:28:57

Whatever one's view of what happened

to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:28:570:29:01

the fact is it is important

to understand the process

0:29:010:29:05

of revolutionary change

for its own sake.

0:29:050:29:08

Red October would usher

in 70 years of communism.

0:29:090:29:13

The proletarite would rise,

find respect and security.

0:29:130:29:16

But the suppression of the peoples

of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:160:29:20

camps and the murder of hundreds

of thousands, if not millions

0:29:200:29:24

of people, make it difficult

for many to see that revolution

0:29:240:29:28

as something to celebrate.

0:29:280:29:32

That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:330:29:35

So is the centenary

of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:350:29:37

for celebration, or regret?

0:29:370:29:39

Well, to discuss this I'm

joined by former Labour

0:29:390:29:41

and Respect MP George Galloway,

and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:410:29:47

Good morning. Let me start with you

George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:470:29:51

revolution a cause for celebration?

With the, if not for the October

0:29:510:29:56

revolution, we'd been conducting

this interview in German. Though the

0:29:560:30:00

truth is this interview wouldn't be

taking place and we probably

0:30:000:30:03

wouldn't be alive for a variety of

reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:030:30:11

back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill

often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:110:30:14

elsewhere. If not for the Soviet

Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:140:30:22

his successorsness, perhaps until

now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:220:30:27

Portugal.

You say we wouldn't be

able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:270:30:31

former Soviet Union we couldn't have

this office either?

That's also

0:30:310:30:34

true. But even the...

George will be

able to say, that of course.

Even

0:30:340:30:42

the sun has spots on its face as

they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:420:30:46

Union. There is no doubt tremendous

abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:460:30:55

suffering but, if not for the

transformation, then the Soviet

0:30:550:31:05

Union, Russia's GDP increased from

1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:050:31:12

And the strength that defeated

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:120:31:19

Peter Hitchens, does it offend you

there are people celebrating 100

0:31:190:31:22

years since the Russian Revolution?

Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:220:31:28

in which I lived, you would not have

been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:280:31:33

cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but

engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:330:31:35

Government using -- a cynical

putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:350:31:52

was the inauguration of an immensely

long period of repression,

0:31:520:31:58

brutality, secret police,

concentration camps and lies, which

0:31:580:32:02

I am likely to have seen come to an

end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:020:32:06

why anybody looking at that

disastrous country where so much

0:32:060:32:09

misery was needlessly imposed on so

many people for so long could

0:32:090:32:11

possibly celebrate the beginning of

it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:110:32:15

and as I say was truly the result of

the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:150:32:21

intelligence operations of the

Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:210:32:23

to save it skin...

But everyone

including George Galloway

0:32:230:32:27

acknowledges the tyranny and terror

that followed.

He doesn't. He gives

0:32:270:32:32

statistics about GDP but fails to

mention the people murdered in

0:32:320:32:35

labour

0:32:350:32:42

camp... He was of course formerly a

Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:420:32:48

Lenin, which I have not done and

neither have I done today. I have

0:32:480:32:52

never been a Communist, unlike Peter

Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:520:32:56

celebrate that an entirely different

world opened up as a result of the

0:32:560:33:01

events in October 19 17. China, you

have just seen their party congress,

0:33:010:33:05

decorated with the iconography of

the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:050:33:10

is the most powerful, or soon will

be the most powerful country on the

0:33:100:33:13

earth.

With one of the most

repressive government?

I don't think

0:33:130:33:18

that is true. There is repression in

China, but...

Enormous repression in

0:33:180:33:24

China! How can you possibly argue

there is an?

China has taken more

0:33:240:33:28

people out of poverty in the last 30

years than any country, resume,

0:33:280:33:33

system, ever has -- how can you

possibly argue there is not?

All

0:33:330:33:38

despots always argue, trying to

distract your attention from the

0:33:380:33:42

mountains of skulls behind them,

their supposed economic success,

0:33:420:33:45

which generally does not turn out to

be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:450:33:49

Union was an enormous pile of rust

by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:490:33:54

complete catastrophe.

Yes, that is

why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:540:33:58

about the Revolution 100 years ago.

Is it possible to separate the two

0:33:580:34:03

events? A popular overthrowing of a

government is perhaps different from

0:34:030:34:07

the tyranny and terror that

followed.

It was not a popular

0:34:070:34:12

overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein

propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:120:34:16

we see was a film made afterwards.

What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:160:34:21

in the middle of the night in which

hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:210:34:30

mentioned...

That German connection,

a rather more important...

Nobody

0:34:300:34:37

has even mentioned during this year

until now that there was a Russian

0:34:370:34:39

Revolution. There were two. The

first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:390:34:45

overthrowing the old regime, and I

think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:450:34:48

second one was a cynical for --

foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:480:34:55

not deserve to be spoken out.

Is

that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:550:34:58

would have done better than a

Bolshevik one?

It is not my business

0:34:580:35:04

and entirely counterfactual fiction,

if I may...

Unlike how you open this

0:35:040:35:10

discussion.

That is the most

important thing. If not for the

0:35:100:35:14

Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.

Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:140:35:21

world, with its allies -- Adolph

Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:210:35:26

and most of the world...

The effect

of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:260:35:31

Europe was colossal.

Let's bring it

all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:310:35:34

You were saying earlier you have

never been a Leninist, although

0:35:340:35:40

Peter Hitchens confesses he was at

one time.

Absolutely was a

0:35:400:35:46

Trotskyist, and now nor the complete

folly of that particular political

0:35:460:35:53

disposition.

John McDonnell in the

Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:530:35:57

Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a

problem for the Labour Party?

I

0:35:570:36:02

would have thought, arts would be

more respected now than he has been

0:36:020:36:05

for quite some time as capitalism is

collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:050:36:11

2008 the Economist itself, the bible

of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:110:36:17

Marxist economics and analysis, so I

really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:170:36:22

Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only

took them four years, 54...

It is

0:36:220:36:31

not that.

I think we are moving into

an era where Governments like the

0:36:310:36:39

Chinese Government are making plans,

and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:390:36:43

them, and thus transforming their

position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:430:36:49

need to tell you, was just about the

most backward place you could

0:36:490:36:52

possibly imagine. And from 1949 to

now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:520:36:59

is the world's biggest economy...

We

are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:36:590:37:07

by China here.

I have to put this

point in. If China was backward in

0:37:070:37:12

1949 it was far more backward by the

time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:120:37:16

leap forward and starved millions of

people

0:37:160:37:18

leap forward and starved millions of

leap forward and starved millions of

0:37:180:37:18

people to death in the period of

economic lunacy. You just don't

0:37:180:37:24

notice...

What George was saying

they are, and a sense certainly

0:37:240:37:27

amongst younger voters in this

country and others, where they are

0:37:270:37:31

turning against capitalism, they

don't think it has worked or

0:37:310:37:33

delivered for them, that this kind

of Marxist Leninist philosophy is

0:37:330:37:37

becoming more popular?

Let's hope

not. The fact the current system is

0:37:370:37:41

failing does not seem to recommend

the Soviet system, which is

0:37:410:37:47

demonstrably a failure, and even its

own leaders admitted it failed and

0:37:470:37:50

that is why they tried to reform it

in the period I was there and why it

0:37:500:37:54

collapsed. Whatever you might want

to conclude from examining our

0:37:540:37:57

position, the Soviet alternative is

not the thing you want the dues.

0:37:570:38:00

This was a long period of disaster,

and I remember at the end of it

0:38:000:38:05

watching in Moscow said a film which

has never been shown here, and the

0:38:050:38:11

title means approximately we can't

go on living like this, and for the

0:38:110:38:14

first time, the politburo told the

truth about what life was like in

0:38:140:38:19

the dreadful place and everyone in

that cinema was weeping because

0:38:190:38:22

finally they saw the truth being

told about the dreadful

0:38:220:38:25

anti-civilisation in which they had

been taught to live for so long. The

0:38:250:38:29

idea we should celebrate it revive

it seems to me to be verging on the

0:38:290:38:32

obscene.

George, one interesting

question about this of course,

0:38:320:38:38

whilst there are events going on in

London and across the UK to mark

0:38:380:38:41

this centenary, it is not being

celebrated in Russia.

I was in

0:38:410:38:44

Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

is a big debate about whether it

0:38:440:38:48

ought to be, and many people are

celebrating it...

Vladimir Putin is

0:38:480:38:53

not. He would want to ignore it.

But

the Communist Party is the second

0:38:530:38:56

biggest party in Russia. And it is

the ruling party in China, which,

0:38:560:39:04

with respect, is not a separate

thing, because China is continuing

0:39:040:39:07

the Russian Revolution and doing

rather better at it than the

0:39:070:39:10

Russians did, but there are many

people, particularly older, that is

0:39:100:39:16

true, who think that the era of the

Soviet Union was better than the

0:39:160:39:22

very cold period of capitalism that

succeeded it. So half the world

0:39:220:39:26

followed for a time the red flag,

the red banner of Leninism. No one

0:39:260:39:34

will do so again. Leninism of the

kind that Peter used to proselytise

0:39:340:39:40

is certainly not coming back, but

Marxism is going to live on.

Let's

0:39:400:39:45

hope not.

Thank you both, gentlemen,

for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:450:39:49

It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:490:39:50

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:500:39:51

Coming up on the programme:

0:39:510:39:55

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:550:39:58

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:39:580:40:00

It wasn't just Westminster

that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:000:40:03

We're asking people in Guildford

in Surrey,

0:40:030:40:05

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

in Northern Ireland.

0:40:130:40:17

With no deal between the DUP

and Sinn Fein and a call for direct

0:40:170:40:22

rule ministers to be appointed

within weeks,

0:40:220:40:24

is devolution about to disappear?

0:40:240:40:25

We'll hear from the Shadow Secretary

of State, Owen Smith,

0:40:250:40:27

and we'll get the thoughts

of the Green Party leader,

0:40:270:40:30

Steven Agnew, Gerry Carroll

from People Before Profit

0:40:300:40:32

and the Independent

MLA, Claire Sugden.

0:40:320:40:36

And with their thoughts

on that and more, my guests

0:40:360:40:38

of the day are Allison Morris

from the Irish News

0:40:380:40:40

and the News Letter's Sam McBride.

0:40:400:40:45

The DUP has called for direct

rule Ministers to be

0:40:480:40:50

in place within weeks.

0:40:500:40:52

Mr Dodds told the Inside Politics

programme on Radio Ulster that

0:40:520:40:56

Ministers from London could make

decisions in conjunction

0:40:560:40:57

with the parties at Stormont.

0:40:570:41:00

The Shadow Secretary of State,

Owen Smith, said the focus needs

0:41:000:41:05

to be on getting a successful

outcome to the negotiations before

0:41:050:41:08

moving to appoint London Ministers

and Mr Smith joins me now

0:41:080:41:11

from our Cardiff studio.

0:41:110:41:18

Thank you for joining us.

0:41:180:41:19

What is your understanding of where

the talks process is at the moment?

0:41:190:41:22

On Thursday night Gregory Campbell

said there was no reason for talks

0:41:220:41:25

not to happen again on Friday -

but John O'Dowd said this phase

0:41:250:41:30

of the process is over

because the budget.

0:41:300:41:34

I think the secretary of state was

clear. That is going to be a budget

0:41:340:41:39

in ten days. There is also an

opportunity for the parties to

0:41:390:41:43

continue talking. He said the

parties where continuing to talk on

0:41:430:41:48

Thursday and Friday last week. I

think where we are is there is one

0:41:480:41:52

last season over the next couple of

months to try and get things back up

0:41:520:41:57

and running. There is going to be a

parallel process where there is

0:41:570:42:01

going to be a budget. Otherwise, the

money for Northern Ireland.

You'd

0:42:010:42:07

want to see James Brooke and Shire

painting direct rule ministers?

I

0:42:070:42:15

think he should give it until

Christmas. I talked about the new

0:42:150:42:18

year putting in ministers is going

to be inevitable. You can afford to

0:42:180:42:25

have one last crack at trying to get

the parties to come back together in

0:42:250:42:29

the next couple of months, unless he

decides, and he is closer to this,

0:42:290:42:34

unless you

0:42:340:42:35

unless you decide the parties have

decided themselves and they are not

0:42:350:42:37

going to do a deal. In which case,

he needs to cockpit sooner.

0:42:370:42:43

Interesting that the DUP seems to

want it sooner rather than later.

0:42:430:42:49

Yes, that indicates perhaps that

they cannot do a deal or they think

0:42:490:42:52

the other side is not prepared to do

a deal. I suspect, both parties in

0:42:520:42:59

the negotiation see more risks than

benefits of getting back in

0:42:590:43:04

partnership together and may have

decided a period of direct rule is

0:43:040:43:09

what they are prepared to accept. In

that case, the secretary of state

0:43:090:43:15

needs to recognise that and the

Government needs to note that is his

0:43:150:43:19

opinion and we will see direct rule.

He will -- it will be harder to get

0:43:190:43:29

them back together.

What do you

think of Nigel Dodds's thoughts that

0:43:290:43:34

the good work in conjunction with

the Stormont parties? How would that

0:43:340:43:39

work, in your view?

My understanding

is James has been talking to the

0:43:390:43:45

parties about that. I do know some

of the smaller parties have been

0:43:450:43:49

discussing that with him. There are

models have been used before. At the

0:43:490:43:54

beginning of the Welsh Assembly,

there was a shadow Assembly. The did

0:43:540:43:58

not have the full devolution but an

Assembly grouping to which people

0:43:580:44:02

were collected and these good and

wise decisions being taken by

0:44:020:44:07

ministers. It has got to be

something around that sort of area

0:44:070:44:11

that they are discussing, whether

that is being back scrutiny

0:44:110:44:17

committees, having Assembly is set

in a binary session. I suspect that

0:44:170:44:21

is less likely. Some form of hybrid

situation might be advisable and

0:44:210:44:30

better than simply going to direct

rule because it makes it easier

0:44:300:44:34

perhaps for the parties to continue

talking and for us to revive

0:44:340:44:38

devolution proper.

You floated the

idea of some kind of scrutiny

0:44:380:44:46

Assembly. Do you have any sense to

whether the parties think that is a

0:44:460:44:52

good idea? That, surely, is an

admission that devolution as we have

0:44:520:44:56

known it, has not worked.

Yes, it

would be the conference league, in

0:44:560:45:02

comparison. It would be a big step

backwards. It is something I have

0:45:020:45:07

raised and I have raised it knowing

that the parties are talking about

0:45:070:45:11

it with the secretary of state and

it is something that has possibly

0:45:110:45:15

been talked about in the talks. The

truth is, this is out there and

0:45:150:45:20

being discussed between the

governments and the Secretary of

0:45:200:45:22

State and is something I think is

likely to be pushed for more broadly

0:45:220:45:26

over the next couple of weeks.

Another couple of things to

0:45:260:45:30

consider, we know the Alliance party

has called for an external

0:45:300:45:36

negotiator to push the process

forward. Is that worth giving

0:45:360:45:41

consideration to?

Yes, that is

something I mentioned last week to

0:45:410:45:45

be secretary of state. I do not know

why he has not been in favour. Under

0:45:450:45:52

the last Labour Government, notable

incidents of outside negotiators

0:45:520:46:03

bringing things forward. It did work

on occasion. The fresh pair of eyes

0:46:030:46:08

can be a helpful thing to bring

things to be. If people think the

0:46:080:46:13

Government are not facilitating

things efficiently, or are not

0:46:130:46:15

making things easier, and outside

Audie meet the where to look for

0:46:150:46:22

progress.

-- and outside body. The

secretary of state is going to seek

0:46:220:46:28

outside advice in terms of salaries.

Do you welcome that? You are not is

0:46:280:46:34

a port of drastic action being taken

in the short time? This delay shows

0:46:340:46:38

that drastic action does not work.

John Reid cut salaries in 2002 and

0:46:380:46:45

they work at again in 2003 and again

in 2005. It is hardly the quick fix

0:46:450:46:52

that we sometimes imagine it might

be. Getting outside advice and

0:46:520:46:57

looking at what point he would make

that decision is well worth him

0:46:570:47:02

doing. Clearly, if you have a role

for the Assembly that is short of

0:47:020:47:08

full scale devolution, support of

parties is something to look at. As

0:47:080:47:17

it will always be popular to cut any

politician's salary, it is a side

0:47:170:47:23

bar issue versus the really big

question we have got hanging over

0:47:230:47:27

the future of services in Northern

Ireland, moral questions, really

0:47:270:47:32

pressing stuff that should be

devolved ministers. --. -- devolved

0:47:320:47:43

Minister's response ability.

0:47:430:47:50

Weird you think we are? The DUP says

it could continue and they could

0:47:500:47:57

have direct rule ministers

appointed. Sinn Fein seem to be

0:47:570:48:00

suggesting it is dead in the water.

I think Sinn Fein's position is

0:48:000:48:06

over... What does that mean? Both of

those parties want to get the party

0:48:060:48:11

conferences out of the way. That is

the thing that is for most on their

0:48:110:48:15

mind. Neither of them is going to go

into the party conference not having

0:48:150:48:19

done a U-turn. I think even the

Secretary of State has two recognise

0:48:190:48:24

they have to let them get that out

of the way first and eighth period

0:48:240:48:27

of talks after that. An Smith is

right, he needs to bring in an

0:48:270:48:32

independent person. -- Owen Smith.

No conclusion by Christmas and then

0:48:320:48:41

direct rule ministers by January,

you are prolonging the process

0:48:410:48:44

unless there is structure in place.

Do you agree with that timescale? I

0:48:440:48:49

wonder what you make of what the

parties think they are actually

0:48:490:48:54

discussing. Again, on Thursday night

they could not seem to agree on what

0:48:540:48:58

the process was dealing with.

I

thought Thursday's night programme

0:48:580:49:03

was fascinating. It was the first

time that Gregory Campbell was open

0:49:030:49:07

to compromise any TVs juju. Is it a

case you're not going to get

0:49:070:49:11

everything you want and he said,

yes. -- TVs juju. Compromise, why

0:49:110:49:18

would we compromise on what are

compromising. That begs the

0:49:180:49:24

question, what on earth are Sinn

Fein negotiating? If they have

0:49:240:49:29

decided there is nothing to

compromise, what have they been

0:49:290:49:33

spending months talking to them

about? Clearly, that is not the

0:49:330:49:37

case. The are both willing to move

but there is no transparency to the

0:49:370:49:42

public.

Why do they want direct rule

so quickly?

We have massive

0:49:420:49:49

influence at Westminster, the DUP.

It also moves on this 1 million

0:49:490:49:54

pounds. Also, it is a recognition of

what people in the streets and

0:49:540:50:01

villages across Northern Ireland are

saying, if there is no one in

0:50:010:50:03

charge, we need someone in charge.

It was significant that Owen Smith

0:50:030:50:08

is moving to put pressure on the

secretary of state to see around

0:50:080:50:12

Christmas time there needs to be

ministers in place.

As any

0:50:120:50:15

circumstance that you think Sinn

Fein would sign up to a shadow

0:50:150:50:20

scrutiny Assembly?

The model...

Foxhall conference is what an Smith

0:50:200:50:31

would call it.

It is like a large

City Council and to pay that money

0:50:310:50:36

for people to be glorified

councillors would be a waste of

0:50:360:50:39

money.

I will speak to you again

later. Thank you for now.

0:50:390:50:44

As we know very well,

the negotiations have been primarily

0:50:440:50:46

between the DUP and Sinn Fein,

with the other main parties left

0:50:460:50:49

to watch from the sidelines -

and standing behind them trying

0:50:490:50:52

to get a glimpse of the action

are the even smaller parties

0:50:520:50:55

and Stormont's sole independent MLA,

Claire Sugden.

0:50:550:50:57

She joins me now along

with Steven Agnew, the Green Party

0:50:570:50:59

leader, and People Before

0:50:590:51:00

Profit's Gerry Carroll.

0:51:000:51:01

We asked Jim Allister of the TUV

to join us, by the way,

0:51:010:51:04

but he didn't want to.

0:51:040:51:08

Stephen, you said it is now time for

the Secretary of State to consider

0:51:080:51:13

different approaches if he is

serious about breaking the deadlock.

0:51:130:51:18

I think we'd stick these dishes away

from the parties. I have proposed

0:51:180:51:24

that we open them up to a citizen'

Assembly. As has been trialled in

0:51:240:51:32

Manchester, around issues of Brexit.

Put it to the citizens to test what

0:51:320:51:36

they think.

The parties tested what

they thought in March and June.

No,

0:51:360:51:40

we tested to the want to vote for.

On these issues, how important are

0:51:400:51:47

the two citizens? No party in

Northern Ireland can save you speak

0:51:470:51:50

for the majority. We are all

minority parties. That is why there

0:51:500:51:54

is equality. It it was the dozens.

It has been done in the Republic and

0:51:540:52:00

in places like British Columbia and

actually test the will of the

0:52:000:52:03

people. I think we are beyond the

point of representing people, they

0:52:030:52:09

are representing their own vested

interests.

In March of this year,

0:52:090:52:14

56% of people voted for the DUP and

Sinn Fein.

It is not clear because

0:52:140:52:20

if you divide that up, it is a split

population because of the views of

0:52:200:52:24

those parties are very dissimilar.

If we are to bring that into users

0:52:240:52:29

and Assembly, we can sort out the

dishes. It is not about taking in a

0:52:290:52:35

poke, it is about presenting the

evidence, letting lobby groups on

0:52:350:52:40

both sides making their case and

having a proper form of democracy

0:52:400:52:45

where citizens feed into decision

making and politicians follow the

0:52:450:52:49

people.

Are you agreeing with Steven

Agnew?

The key way to break what is

0:52:490:52:57

happening. For us, look at the last

year. We saw service is being

0:52:570:53:02

slashed, February and March this

year. Massive mobilisation of

0:53:020:53:07

people, trade unions on the

streets...

How long is it we have

0:53:070:53:12

seen people on the streets?

£7

million is being cut from the health

0:53:120:53:18

service, we sought mobilisation from

trade unions and people saying the

0:53:180:53:23

health service should be invested in

more rather than being cut back on.

0:53:230:53:27

People are being organised in their

communities and workplaces to push

0:53:270:53:31

back and curtail some of the

cutbacks in the health services.

0:53:310:53:35

Rather than waiting for Stormont to

deliver or a deal to be concocted

0:53:350:53:41

up, we are getting people organised

in the own communities and sing that

0:53:410:53:44

is essential and important and I

would advocate that for a week

0:53:440:53:48

forward. There needs to be a deal

that represents real change for

0:53:480:53:52

people in the north.

Does anything

ring true for you, without mandate

0:53:520:53:58

from March and June to reach

agreement on these key issues, what

0:53:580:54:02

chance is there for hundreds of

thousands of people being able to

0:54:020:54:05

reach an agreement on such difficult

issues?

Think under the current

0:54:050:54:10

structures of the Good Friday

Agreement, you get to you vote for

0:54:100:54:14

and it is Sinn Fein and DUP on this

occasion. They have mandate is not

0:54:140:54:22

to compromise. People vote for them

on the mandates and the behaviour

0:54:220:54:25

that they have demonstrated to date.

The only way we can legitimately

0:54:250:54:29

address this is to either change the

structure of the Good Friday

0:54:290:54:33

Agreement or go to another election

and let the people decide to book

0:54:330:54:36

for someone else.

Is that your

preferred option at this stage, and

0:54:360:54:41

other Stormont collection?

No,

because if we were to have another

0:54:410:54:45

election we would end up with the

same as what we have now because

0:54:450:54:48

there does not seem to be a credible

alternative. Unfortunately, politics

0:54:480:54:52

in Northern Ireland is based on the

issues of unionism and nationalism

0:54:520:54:58

and that is how people tend to vote.

I would put it to the people, go out

0:54:580:55:01

there and start thinking of other

issues, health care, education and

0:55:010:55:05

start thinking about who you are

voting for and can those people

0:55:050:55:09

deliver? For ten months, they have

not been able to. I think we need to

0:55:090:55:13

change what we are electing to.

2013, we need to revitalise the Good

0:55:130:55:21

Friday Agreement. Sinn Fein,

ironically, I was resistant to

0:55:210:55:25

change. I think we will not go back

to the status quo. I think the

0:55:250:55:29

Assembly as we know it is dead and I

think we now need to look at a

0:55:290:55:34

process for change. I think that is

through a process involving

0:55:340:55:39

citizens. It was the People's

agreement in 1998. Politicians have

0:55:390:55:45

now changed it without the people's

consent. I think we need to devolve

0:55:450:55:52

power back to citizens. I think it

has been shown to work with

0:55:520:55:56

difficult decisions in the Republic

of Ireland and there is no reason

0:55:560:55:59

why it could not work in Northern

Ireland.

What about a shadow

0:55:590:56:04

Assembly. We floated the idea with

Owen Smith today that direct rule

0:56:040:56:09

ministers could be appointed by

London but you would have checks and

0:56:090:56:14

balances Assembly in Stormont

keeping an eye on decisions as they

0:56:140:56:16

are made. Does that hold any

attraction?

The have

0:56:160:56:25

institutionalised sectarianism in

Stormont. That has been the case

0:56:250:56:28

since 1998. There is an attempt and

we are not weighted to those

0:56:280:56:31

structures. It is an attempt to try

and circumvent issues like equal

0:56:310:56:38

marriage, the right to an Irish

language act by talking about

0:56:380:56:42

structures and changing structures

and a shadow Assembly. Any change to

0:56:420:56:46

structure, does it implement real

change or is it used to block those

0:56:460:56:53

changes to society? That is our

business to judging those changes.

0:56:530:56:57

You are the sole independent MLA,

Claire Sugden, at Stormont. The

0:56:570:57:03

smaller parties met with yourself to

talk about how the process could be

0:57:030:57:08

moved forward. Did anything positive

come out of that? I assume everyone

0:57:080:57:12

was there apart from the Sinn Fein

and the DUP.

The parties outside of

0:57:120:57:16

the two parties were willing to come

together and have a discussion...

0:57:160:57:24

Was a fruitful? To be honest, no.

The power lies with the two main

0:57:240:57:28

parties. I would like to be part of

this process and put ideas forward.

0:57:280:57:33

I would like the secretary of state,

who I believe he has

0:57:330:57:38

irresponsibility to be small parties

because we have a mandate, he has to

0:57:380:57:41

talk to us and he has not up until

now. Until the two main parties can

0:57:410:57:46

work together, ultimately this is

what this is about, not an Irish

0:57:460:57:51

language act, marriage equality,

this is about working with one

0:57:510:57:53

another. The two cannot exist

without one another but they have to

0:57:530:58:01

sell it to the voters.

We need to

change the structures that allow

0:58:010:58:04

them to have so much power.

The Good

Friday Agreement structures...

0:58:040:58:10

Parties who are resistant to change

our ensuring that direct rule

0:58:100:58:14

happens. By the resistant to change

to the Good Friday Agreement, we

0:58:140:58:20

voted and the Green Party campaigned

for it, it is 20 years on now and we

0:58:200:58:25

are facing the anniversary with no

Assembly. We have to change the

0:58:250:58:29

structures and make them sustainable

and move the -- remove the B-2 of

0:58:290:58:36

them.

The majority of MLAs and

parties and is huge section of

0:58:360:58:42

parties are in favour of those.

The

DUP mac believe they have a mandate.

0:58:420:58:49

The majority of the assemblies are

in favour of those issues.

Any deal

0:58:490:58:54

in Stormont should take those into

consideration. If that is not action

0:58:540:58:58

on those issues, it will be seen as

a sell out.

That could be dealt with

0:58:580:59:03

at Stormont if the Assembly got up

and running again.

Potentially, but

0:59:030:59:10

these negotiations that are ongoing

and none of us are involved in them

0:59:100:59:13

and we just don't let -- we are not

involved in them and we do not know

0:59:130:59:21

what is going on.

You have a unique

insight into all of these. One year

0:59:210:59:26

ago, you were in the Executive

serving as justice minister. Did you

0:59:260:59:33

have any sense at all that the whole

point was built on such a fragile

0:59:330:59:41

foundation? That 12 months on, the

whole thing could have collapsed?

0:59:410:59:46

No, I may beat would not have

accepted the job. That said, I would

0:59:460:59:52

not go back on that belief that the

parties did work well together and

0:59:520:59:57

there did seem that the Government

could work forward around the issues

0:59:571:00:03

that do matter to people on the

ground.

What is your analysis on why

1:00:031:00:07

that fell apart so quickly?

I think

there was this misconception that

1:00:071:00:12

the DUP were walking over Sinn Fein.

What Sinn Fein did was that one

1:00:121:00:16

cannot exist without the other. I

think this is about them working

1:00:161:00:20

together and fighting a way to work

together. Yes, I agree with Jerry on

1:00:201:00:25

terms of the issues that can be

dealt with at Stormont. These issues

1:00:251:00:28

are not the issues. It is a form of

words. Each of them... Both have to

1:00:281:00:36

go back to their voter base and say

we have one.

It is interesting to

1:00:361:00:40

hear your perspectives on it. It is

very revealing. Thank you for

1:00:401:00:45

joining us.

1:00:451:00:48

Let's take a look at the week in 60

seconds. The secretary of state

1:00:481:00:58

stepped in for plans for a budget.

It is now very unlikely that an

1:00:581:01:02

executive will be in place within a

timetable to pass a budget.

But that

1:01:021:01:08

does not necessarily mean the talks

process is over.

We did our best. We

1:01:081:01:12

did our best to be flexible. We were

prepared to stretch ourselves.

That

1:01:121:01:18

does not stop us to continue to

engage with Sinn Fein in trying to

1:01:181:01:22

find a solution.

An SDLP MLA once

Sinn Fein to encourage more National

1:01:221:01:29

is to join the police.

That was too

much ambiguity around a statement.

1:01:291:01:33

You need to be stronger. People who

join the police are brave.

The

1:01:331:01:38

Defence Secretary was the first

casualties of the Westminster sexual

1:01:381:01:43

harassment casual.

What might have

been acceptable 15 or ten years ago

1:01:431:01:48

is clearly not acceptable now.

The

DUP Nigel Dodds what it off with

1:01:481:01:55

negotiator of the year.

1:01:551:02:00

-- negotiator of the year award.

1:02:001:02:02

Stephen Walker reporting.

1:02:021:02:03

And let's have a final word

with Sam and Allison.

1:02:031:02:07

A citizens Assembly, another

collection? I cannot be the thought

1:02:071:02:11

of another election. If we had

another election, the results would

1:02:111:02:17

be similar and if not the Ulster

Unionist Party might feel to exist

1:02:171:02:21

after another election. It was

interesting what she said about how

1:02:211:02:24

they were getting along really well

up until the breaking point. With

1:02:241:02:30

more good will, in maybe could have

worked. They would have stumbled on

1:02:301:02:34

a link collapsed anyway.

I think she

is right about that. There has been

1:02:341:02:39

revisionism, particularly from Sinn

Fein. These are parties who

1:02:391:02:43

appointed a joint spokesman to

promote their message. We knew they

1:02:431:02:47

had to work together. The most

interesting thing was that Steven

1:02:471:02:51

Agnew leading the charge on the

issue of a voluntary collagen. That

1:02:511:02:55

was dead and buried. Nobody would

lead talking about that. There is

1:02:551:03:02

the thought that Sinn Fein have

overplayed their hand and people who

1:03:021:03:05

were not energised by that to the

fore now.

1:03:051:03:07

We will leave

1:03:071:03:07

All right, and at that point

we have to end it there.

1:03:071:03:10

My thanks to Rosena and Andrew,

and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:101:03:12

It's been a tricky

week for Theresa May -

1:03:121:03:15

again, you might think.

1:03:151:03:15

She's lost a Cabinet minister

and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:151:03:18

which did little for party unity,

to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:181:03:21

vote on Brexit and yet more reports

of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:211:03:24

this time apparently over housing.

1:03:241:03:26

So, is the Prime Minister's time

in office going with a bang

1:03:261:03:28

or more of a whimper?

1:03:281:03:30

Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:301:03:31

and the entirely unscientific

Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:311:03:33

to Conservative-held Surrey,

to find out.

1:03:331:03:35

ALL:

Three, two, one.

1:03:351:03:38

# Ignite the light

and let it shine...#

1:03:381:03:44

It's a tale of lit fuses, plots,

conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:441:03:48

but enough of the recent goings

on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:481:03:52

it's firework night here

in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:521:03:56

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

1:03:561:03:58

Yes or no?

1:03:581:03:59

# Baby you're a firework...#

1:03:591:04:05

With all the scandals in Government

at the moment

1:04:051:04:07

and Brexit seems to be dragging on

a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:071:04:10

So, at the moment, I don't think

she is in control.

1:04:101:04:14

She's too many people sniping

at her back, really.

1:04:161:04:20

Do you think Theresa

May's in control?

1:04:201:04:21

I think she's in control.

1:04:211:04:23

She's in a good job

having a tough time.

1:04:231:04:25

No, I don't.

1:04:251:04:26

I think she's a mess.

1:04:261:04:27

Even when you read her body language

when she's being interviewed

1:04:271:04:30

by people, she doesn't

seem like she's in control.

1:04:301:04:33

I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:331:04:37

I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:391:04:43

I do think she's struggling but,

I still hope, still think she has

1:04:431:04:46

a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:461:04:49

The Queen is England's role.

1:04:491:04:51

It's her birth right.

1:04:511:04:54

She is England's role

of this country.

1:04:541:04:57

I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:04:571:05:00

I don't think there's anyone

who could do a better job.

1:05:001:05:03

I think she's had a bit of

a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:031:05:06

I think she could have done better.

1:05:061:05:08

The money's not going

to where it needs to go.

1:05:081:05:10

I think she should resign, really.

1:05:101:05:12

I feel a bit sorry

for her, actually.

1:05:121:05:15

I think she's been witch-hunted

a little bit.

1:05:151:05:16

She's doing her best.

1:05:161:05:20

With everything that's

going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:201:05:22

moment, I think the Conservative

Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:221:05:26

Very disappointed.

1:05:261:05:28

Well, you get bickering in all parts

not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:281:05:34

And that's just sort

of par for the course.

1:05:341:05:36

But I'm sure she'll

hold everybody together

1:05:361:05:39

despite the current difficulties.

1:05:391:05:41

The Tories weren't in control

when they had the referendum

1:05:411:05:43

in the first place for the euro.

1:05:431:05:46

We've had two years

of complete chaos.

1:05:461:05:48

I don't see an end to it.

1:05:481:05:52

Well, I seem to have

acquired a few new friends.

1:05:521:05:54

The oohs and ahs are

over and so the moodbox

1:05:541:05:57

and the result is...

1:05:571:06:01

No.

1:06:011:06:02

The majority of people

here in Guildford

1:06:021:06:04

don't think Theresa May

is in control.

1:06:041:06:06

CHEERING

1:06:071:06:10

That was Ellie with the entirely

unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:101:06:13

to Bushy Hill Junior School

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:131:06:20

Let's put the Sorbol question to our

panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:201:06:24

seasoned Westminster watchers. Is

Theresa May in control of her

1:06:241:06:27

Government at the moment or is all

of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:271:06:32

swimming around loosening her grip?

Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:321:06:37

All Prime Ministers have a degree of

control. They retain the power much

1:06:371:06:44

tat wrongage as we saw with her

reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:441:06:48

her MPs but she did it. You can't be

fully in control of these situations

1:06:481:06:53

in effectively what is a hung

Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:531:06:56

in the election she would have the

authority to do what she wanted. She

1:06:561:07:00

could float over something like

this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:001:07:04

say she's perfectly suited for it,

the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:041:07:08

goer, to sort it out. It is much

more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:081:07:12

think she will be able to get a full

grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:121:07:15

things that need to happen that will

happen. I remember with back to

1:07:151:07:20

basics and John Major, that equally

vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:201:07:24

basics about? It was still running

months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:241:07:30

minister having an affair. This is

different. I can see it will be

1:07:301:07:34

impossible for her to fully get to

grips with it.

Does it provide an

1:07:341:07:38

opportunity for Theresa May to be

seen to be taking really serious

1:07:381:07:41

action, trying to root out a bad

culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:411:07:45

get some political credit for it?

That opportunity was available to

1:07:451:07:49

her all of last week and she hasn't

taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:491:07:55

is the near complete breakdown in

discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:551:07:58

Tory Party. It is extraordinary you

have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:07:581:08:03

not supporting their colleagues.

Ministers and former ministers

1:08:031:08:07

giving interviews in which they slag

off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:071:08:10

an absolute unholy mess. There is no

sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:101:08:15

has any particular solution. I think

we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:151:08:19

her in terms of finding a solution.

How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:191:08:23

like this where you're talking about

apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:231:08:31

retrospective examination of

potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:311:08:34

longer too historic for somebody to

dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:341:08:38

or may not have happened to them. It

is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:381:08:42

being battered around by events.

Where does this story go next?

I

1:08:421:08:49

think the whip's office on every

party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:491:08:53

Democrats, SNP all have their own

whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:531:08:56

be the place of it really. This is

because, where do we draw the line?

1:08:561:09:01

Going forward what mechanisms are

put in place to top this helping

1:09:011:09:05

again. To take allegations

seriously, report them and

1:09:051:09:09

investigate them independently. Or

is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:091:09:14

into the past retrospective, who

knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:141:09:18

Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow

Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:181:09:23

the Labour Party leader know about

Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:231:09:28

promoted him? Theresa May is unable

to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:281:09:32

simply too weak. I asked this of

Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:321:09:37

not more front-foot the on this.

They said they would be if they

1:09:371:09:41

possibly could be. She's running a

minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:411:09:45

seen to be going after a witch-hunt

on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:451:09:49

goes on. Enof thebly what the whips

new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:491:09:58

knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did

the same thing on Andrew Marr.

They

1:09:581:10:07

are being precise about the fact

they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:071:10:13

Newton said she heard no allegations

about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:131:10:17

in charge of rather than rumours

about any other Tories.

Amber Rudd

1:10:171:10:23

say, I do not recognise the more

lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:231:10:29

less lurid once? So, this smells

very, very bad indeed.

Jeremy

1:10:291:10:33

Corbyn's going to have to answer

some of these questions as well?

1:10:331:10:39

Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red

herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:391:10:44

vote out for the Government

fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:441:10:46

They are not there, it is one of the

problems. They are not there to be

1:10:461:10:50

moral guides to these MPs. They are

there to win votes for the

1:10:501:10:54

Government or the opposition if that

becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:541:10:59

with MPs to make sure they get out

and vote. Of course they knew

1:10:591:11:02

virtually everything. But whether

they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:021:11:07

guard yawns in these situations, I

don't think they were. It was not

1:11:071:11:11

part of their job. Maybe you need

moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:111:11:15

whips.

Normally, less than

three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:151:11:20

what we'd been talking about.

Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:201:11:23

that's set for November 22nd, is

that an opportunity for the

1:11:231:11:26

Government to seize back control of

the story?

Philip Hammond may be

1:11:261:11:31

glad we're not spending too much

time talking about the budget. It

1:11:311:11:34

should be an opportunity for the

Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:341:11:39

a line under all of this. I think

one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:391:11:43

of this so-called scandal for the

Government to manage is knowing

1:11:431:11:47

quite how long it will run. In the

normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:471:11:50

steam after a couple of weeks. But

there are so many potential gayses

1:11:501:11:55

that could come out, it might run

longer than that. Rather like the

1:11:551:11:59

expenses scandal. But there is an

opportunity at the budget to reset

1:11:591:12:03

the' again da. I just don't think

Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:031:12:08

he's a very caution Chancellor. At

the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:081:12:11

Theresa May's leadership is so weak

it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:111:12:17

do anything particularly dram attic

why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:171:12:22

budget where they will be hoping not

to make any mistakes.

You say there

1:12:221:12:26

is disagreement in the Cabinet about

what should be in the budget?

1:12:261:12:32

Disagreement between the Chancellor

and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:321:12:38

witch-hunt is hiding a huge story

which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:381:12:42

between Number Ten and number 11.

Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:421:12:45

bear to be in the same room with

each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:451:12:50

in the budget. It is coming down to

housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:501:12:54

be the centrepiece of the budget.

They have to get more houses built.

1:12:541:13:00

Philip Hammond wands that bee

1:13:001:13:01

They have to get more houses built.

Philip Hammond wands that bee

1:13:011:13:02

deregulation. Theresa May wants to

are borrow up to 50 billion

1:13:021:13:07

merchandise more for the Government

to build for themselves.

1:13:071:13:09

That's all for today.

1:13:091:13:11

There's no Sunday Politics

next weekend

1:13:111:13:13

while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:131:13:15

but I'll be back here at 11am

on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:151:13:18

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:181:13:22

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