07/05/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

The local election results made grim reading for Labour.

With just a month to go until the general election,

will promising to rule out tax rises for all but the well off help

The Conservatives have their own announcement on mental health,

as they strain every sinew to insist they don't think they've got

But is there still really all to play for?

And tonight we will find out who is the next

President of France - Emmanuel Macron or Marine Le Pen -

after an unpredictable campaign that ended with a hack attack

The starting gun has been fired in the general election,

but what issues will dominate the campaign here?

We'll hear from the Green Party and People Before Profit.

Join me in half an hour. potential impact in marginals next

month. If Ukip support continues to evaporate...

And joining me for all of that, three journalists ready

to analyse the week's politics with all the forensic

focus of Diane Abbott preparing for an interview,

and all the relaxed, slogan-free banter of Theresa May

It's Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

So, the Conservatives are promising, if re-elected, to change mental

health laws in England and Wales to tackle discrimination,

and they're promising 10,000 more staff working in NHS mental health

treatment in England by 2020 - although how that's to be

Here's Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt speaking

There is a lot of new money going into it.

In January, we said we were going to put an extra ?1 billion

Does this come from other parts of the NHS, or is it

No, it is new money going into the NHS

It's not just of course money, it's having the people

who deliver these jobs, which is why we need

Well, we're joined now from Norwich by the Liberal Democrat health

This weekend, they've launched their own health announcement,

promising a 1% rise on every income tax band to fund the NHS.

Do you welcome the Conservatives putting mental health onto the

campaign agenda in the way that they have? I welcome it being on the

campaign agenda but I do fear that the announcement is built on thin

air. You raised the issue at the start about the 10,000 extra staff,

and questions surrounding how it would be paid for. There is no

additional money on what they have already announced for the NHS. We

know it falls massively short on the expectation of the funding gap

which, by 2020, is likely to be about 30 billion. That is not

disputed now. Anyone outside of the government, wherever you are on the

political spectrum, knows the money going in is simply not enough. So,

rather like the claim that they would add 5000 GPs to the workforce

by 2020, that is not on target. Latest figures show a fall in the

number of GPs. They make these claims, but I'm afraid they are

without substance, unless they are prepared to put money behind it.

Your party's solution to the money problem is to put a 1% percentage

point on all of the bands of income tax to raise more money 20-45. Is

that unfair? Most pensioners who consume 40% of NHS spending, but

over 65s only pay about 20% of income tax. Are you penalising the

younger generations for the health care of an older generation? It is

the first step in what we are describing as a 5-point recovery

plan for the NHS and care system. So, for what is available to us now,

it seems to be the fairest way of bringing in extra resources, income

tax is progressive, and is based on your ability to pay for your average

British worker. It would be ?3 per week which is the cost of less than

two cups of coffee per week. In the longer run, we say that by the end

of the next Parliament, we would be able to introduce a dedicated NHS

and care tax. Based, probably, around a reformed national insurance

system, so it becomes a dedicated NHS and care tax. Interestingly, the

former permanent secretary of the Treasury, Nick MacPherson, said

clearly that this idea merits further consideration which is the

first time anyone for the Treasury has bought into the idea of this.

Let me ask you this. You say it is a small amount of tax that people on

average incomes will have to pay extra. We are talking about people

who have seen no real increases to their income since 2007. They have

been struggling to stand still in terms of their own pay, but you are

going to add to their tax, and as I said earlier, most of the health

care money will then go to pensioners whose incomes have risen

by 15%. I'm interested in the fairness of this redistribution?

Bearing in mind first of all, Andrew, that the raising of the tax

threshold that the Liberal Democrats pushed through in the coalition

increased the effective pay in your pocket for basic rate taxpayers by

about ?1000. We are talking about a tiny fraction of that. I suppose

that you do have to ask, all of us in this country need to ask

ourselves this question... Are we prepared to pay, in terms of the

average worker, about ?3 extra per week to give us a guarantee that

when our loved ones need that care, in their hour of need, perhaps

suspected cancer, that care will be available for them? I have heard two

cases recently brought my attention. An elderly couple, the wife has a

very bad hip. They could not allow the weight to continue. She was told

that she would need to wait 26 weeks, she was in acute pain. They

then deduct paying ?20,000 for private treatment to circumvent

waiting time. They hated doing it, because they did not want to jump

the queue. But that is what is increasingly happening. Sorry to

interrupt, Norman Lamb comedy make very good points but we are short on

time today. One final question, it looks like you might have the chance

to do any of this, I'm told the best you can hope to do internally is to

double the number of seats you have, which would only take you to 18. Do

you think that promising to raise people's income tax, even those on

average earnings, is a vote winner? I think the people in this country

are crying out for politicians to be straight and tenet as it is. At the

moment we heading towards a Conservative landslide... -- tell it

as it is. But do we want a 1-party state? We are electing a government

not only to deal with the crucial Brexit negotiations, but oversee the

stewardship of the NHS and funding of our schools, all of these

critical issues. We need an effective opposition and with the

Labour Party having taken itself off stage, the Liberal Democrats need to

provide an effective opposition. Norman Lamb, thank you for joining

us this morning. Thank you. Labour and Tories are anxious

to stress the general election result is not a foregone conclusion,

whatever the polls say. Order you just heard Norman Lamb say

there that he thought the Conservatives were heading for a

landslide... But did Thursday's dramatic set

of local election results in England, Scotland and Wales give

us a better idea of how the country Here's Emma Vardy with

a behind-the-scenes look at how Good morning, it's seven o'clock

on Friday, May 5th... The dawn of another results day.

Anticipation hung in the air. Early results from the local

elections in England suggest there's been a substantial swing

from Labour to the Conservatives. While the pros did their thing,

I needed breakfast. Don't tell anyone, but I'm

going to pinch a sausage. The overnight counts had delivered

successes for the Tories. But with most councils

only getting started, there was plenty of action

still to come. It's not quite the night

of Labour's nightmares. There's enough mixed news

in Wales, for example - looks like they're about to hold

Cardiff - that they'll try and put But in really simple terms,

four weeks from a general election, the Tories are going forward

and Labour are going backwards. How does it compare being

in here to doing the telly? Huw, how do you prepare yourself

for a long day of results, then? We're not even on air yet,

as you can see, and already in Tory HQ this morning,

there's a kind of, "Oh, I'm scared this will make people

think the election's just I think leave it

like that - perfect. I want the Laura look.

This is really good, isn't it? Usually, we're in here

for the Daily Politics. But it's been transformed

for the Election Results programme. But hours went by without Ukip

winning a single seat. The joke going around

Lincolnshire County Council today from the Conservatives

is that the Tories have eaten We will rebrand

and come back strong. Morale, I think, is inevitably

going to take a bit of a tumble. Particularly if Theresa May starts

backsliding on Brexit. And then I think we will be

totally reinvigorated. There are a lot of good people

in Ukip and I wouldn't want to say anything unkind,

but we all know it's over. Ukip press officer.

Difficult job. Ukip weren't the only ones

putting a brave face on it. Labour were experiencing

their own disaster day too, losing hundreds of seats

and seven councils. If the result is what these

results appear to indicate, Can we have a quick word

for the Sunday Politics? A quick question for Sunday Politics

- how are you feeling? Downhearted or fired up for June?

Fired up, absolutely fired up. He's fired up.

We're going to go out there... We cannot go on with another

five years of this. How's it been for you today?

Tiring. It always is, but I love elections,

I really enjoy them. Yes, you know, obviously we're

disappointed at some of the results, it's been a mixed bag,

but some opinion polls and commentators predicted we'd be

wiped out - we haven't. As for the Lib Dems,

not the resurgence they hoped for, After a dead heat in Northumberland,

the control of a whole council came The section of England

in which we had elections yesterday was the section of England

that was most likely to vote Leave. When you go to sleep at night,

do you just have election results The answer is if that's still

happening, I don't get to sleep. There we go.

Maybe practice some yoga... Thank you very much

but I have one here. With the introduction

of six regional mayors, Labour's Andy Burnham

became Mr Manchester. But by the time Corbyn came

to celebrate, the new mayor We want you to stay for a second

because I've got some I used to present news,

as you probably know. I used to present BBC

Breakfast in the morning. The SNP had notable successes,

ending 40 years of Labour What did you prefer -

presenting or politics? And it certainly had been a hard day

at the office for some. Ukip's foothold in local government

was all but wiped out, leaving the Conservatives

with their best local So another election results

day draws to a close. But don't worry, we'll be doing it

all again in five weeks' time. For now, though, that's your lot.

Now let's look at some of Thursday's results in a little more detail,

and what they might mean for the wider fortunes

In England, there were elections for 34 councils.

The Conservatives took control of ten of them,

gaining over 300 seats, while Labour sustained

While the Lib Dems lost 28 seats, Ukip came close to extinction,

and can now boast of only one councillor in the whole of England.

In Scotland, the big story was Labour losing

a third of their seats, and control of three councils -

while the Tories more than doubled their number of councillors.

In Wales, both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru made gains,

There was some encouraging news for Jeremy Corbyn's party

after Liverpool and Manchester both elected Labour mayors,

although the Tories narrowly won the West Midlands mayoral race.

We're joined now by who else but elections expert John Curtice.

You saw him in Emma's film, he's now back in Glasgow.

In broad terms, what do these local election results tell us about the

general election result? First we have to remember what Theresa May

wants to achieve in the general election is a landslide, and winning

a landslide means you have to win big in terms of votes. The local

election results certainly suggest Theresa May is well on course to win

the general election, at least with four weeks to go, and of course

people could change their minds. We all agree the Conservatives were

double-digit figures ahead of Labour in these elections. However, whereas

the opinion polls on average at the moment suggest there is a 17 point

Conservative lead, and that definitely would deliver a

landslide, it seems the local election figures, at least in

England, are pointing to something close to an 11 point Conservative

lead. That increase would not necessarily deliver a landslide that

she wants. The truth is, the next four weeks are probably not about

who wins this election unless something dramatic changes, but

there is still a battle as to whether or not Theresa May achieves

her objective of winning a landslide. She has to win big. The

local elections as she is not sure to be there, and therefore she is

going to have to campaign hard. Equally, while Labour did have most

prospect of winning, they still at least at the goal of trying to keep

the conservative majority relatively low, and therefore the Parliamentary

Labour Party are alive and kicking. Interesting that the local election

results don't produce a landslide if replicated on June 8th, but when I

looked at when local elections had taken place a month before the

general election, it was in 1983 and 1987. The Tories did well in both

local elections in these years, but come the general election, they

added five points to their share of the vote. No reason it should happen

again, but if it did, that would take them into landslide territory.

Absolutely right, if they do five points better than the local

elections, they are in landslide territory. We have to remember, in

1983, the Labour Party ran an inept campaign and their support ballet.

In 1987, David Owen and David Steele could not keep to the same lines. --

their support fell away. That underlines how well the opposition

campaign in the next four weeks does potentially matter in terms of

Theresa May's ability to achieve their objective. It is worth

noticing in the opinion polls, two things have happened, first, Ukip

voters, a significant slice going to the Conservatives, which helped to

increase the Conservative leader in the bowels. But in the last week,

the Labour vote seems to have recovered. -- in the polls. So the

party is not that far short of what Ed Miliband got in 2015, so the

Conservative leader is back down to 16 or 17, as we started. So we

should not necessarily presume Labour are going to go backwards in

the way they did in 1983. I want to finish by asking if there are deeper

forces at work? Whether the referendum in this country is

producing a realignment in British politics. The Scottish referendum

has produced a kind of realignment in Scotland. And in a different way,

the Brexit referendum has produced a realignment in England and Wales. Do

you agree? You are quite right. Referendums are potentially

disruptive in Scotland, they helped to ensure the constitutional

question became the central issue, and the 45% who voted yes our been

faithful to the SNP since. Although the SNP put in a relatively

disappointing performance in Scotland on Thursday. Equally, south

of the border, on the leave side, in the past 12 months and particularly

the last few weeks, the Conservatives have corralled the

leave vote, about two thirds of those who voted leave now say they

will vote Conservative. Last summer, the figure was only 50%. On the

remain side, the vote is still fragmented. The reason why Theresa

May is in the strong position she is is not simply because the leave vote

has been realigned, but the remain vote has not. Thank you for joining

us. You can go through polls and wonder who is up and down, but I

wonder whether the Scottish and Brexit referendums have produced

fundamental changes. In Scotland, the real division now is between the

centre-left Nationalist party and the centre-right Unionist party.

That has had the consequence of squeezing out Labour in the

argument, never mind the Greens and the Lib Dems. In London, England,

Wales, the Brexit referendum seems to have produced a realignment of

the right to the Tories' advantage, and some trouble for the Labour blue

vote -- blue-collar vote. It works for the pro Brexit end of the

spectrum but not the other half. In the last century, we had people like

Roy Jenkins dreaming of and writing about the realignment of British

politics as though it could be consciously engineered, and in fact

what made it happen was just the calling of a referendum. It's not

something you can put about as a politician, it flows from below,

when the public begin to think of politics in terms of single issues,

dominant issues, such as leaving the European Union. Rather than a broad

spectrum designed by a political class. I wonder whether now Remain

have it in them to coalesce behind a single party. It doesn't look like

they can do it behind Labour. The Liberal Democrats are frankly too

small in Parliament to constitute that kind of force. The closest

thing to a powerful Remain party is the SNP which by definition has

limited appeal south of the border. It is hard. The realignment. We

don't know if it is permanent or how dramatic it will be, but there is

some kind of realignment going on. At the moment, it seems to be a

realignment that by and large is to the benefit of the Conservatives.

Without a doubt, and that can be directly attributed to the

disappearance of Ukip from the political landscape. I have been

saying since the referendum that I thought Ukip was finished. They

still seem to be staggering on under the illusion... Some people may have

picked up on Nigel Farage this morning saying that Ukip still had a

strong role to play until Brexit actually happens. But I think it's

very, very hard to convince the voters of that, because they feel

that, with the result of the referendum, that was Ukip's job

done. And those votes are not going to delay the party -- to the Labour

Party because of the flaws with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, they are

shifting to the Tories. I agree. The key issue was the referendum. It has

produced a fundamental change that few predicted at the time it was

called. Most fundamental of all, it has brought about a unity in the

Conservative Party. With some exceptions, but they are now off

editing the Evening Standard and other things! This is now a party

united around Brexit. Since 1992, the Tories have been split over

Europe, at times fatally so. The referendum, in ways that David

Cameron did not anticipate, has brought about a united front for

this election. In a way, this is a sequel to the referendum, because

it's about Brexit but we still don't know what form Brexit is going to

take. By calling it early, Theresa May has in effect got another go at

a kind of Brexit referendum without knowing what Brexit is, with a

united Tory party behind her. We shall see if it is a blip or a

long-term trend in British politics. Now let's turn to Labour's big

campaign announcement today, and that was the promise of no

income tax rise for those earning less than ?80,000 -

which of course means those earning more than that could

face an increase. Here's Shadow Chancellor John

McDonell on the BBC earlier. What we are saying today, anyone

earning below ?80,000, we will guarantee you will not have an

increase in income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions.

For those above 80,000, we are asking them to pay a modest bit more

to fund our public services. A modest bit. You will see it will be

a modest increase. Talking about modest increases, so we can have a

society which we believe everyone shares the benefits of.

We're joined now by Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon, in Leeds.

Mr McDonnell stressed that for those earning over 80,000, they would be

paying more but it would be modest. He used the word modest 45 times.

But there is only 1.2 million of them. -- 4-5 times. So that would

not raise much money. This is about the key part of this tax policy for

the many, not the few. We are saying that low earners and middle earners

won't be paying more tax under a Labour government, which is not a

policy the Conservatives have committed to yet. As John McDonnell

also said in his interview earlier, if there is a tax rise on the top 5%

of earners, earning over ?80,000, it would be a modest rise. I am trying

to work out what that would mean in terms of money. If it is too modest,

you don't raise much. What will happen is the Labour Party's

manifesto, published in the next couple of weeks, wilfully set out

and cost it. I can't make an announcement now. -- will fully set

out and cost it. Moving on to the local elections, Mr Corbyn says he

is closing the gap with the Tories. What evidence is there? John Curtis

just said there was an 11% gap in the results, Labour 11% behind. The

polls before that suggested Labour were anything up to 20% behind. Was

it a great day for Labour? Certainly not. Is there a lot to do between

now and June? Sure, but we are relishing every moment of that.

Comparing equivalent elections in 2013, the Tories increased their

share of the vote by 13%. You lost 2%. That's a net of 15%. In what way

is that closing the gap? We have gone down to 11 points behind. Am I

satisfied? Certainly not. Is Labour satisfied? Certainly not. A week is

a long time in politics, 4-5 weeks is even longer. The local elections

are over, the general election campaign is starting, and we want to

put out there the policies that will improve the lives of low and middle

income earners. And also many people looking to be well off as well. You

lost 133 seats in Scotland. Are you closing the gap in Scotland? The

journey back for Labour in Scotland, I always thought, wouldn't be an

easy one. Since the council election results and Scotland that we are

comparing this to, there has been an independence referendum and the

terrible results for Labour in the 2015 general election. So it is a

challenge, but one hundreds of thousands of Labour members are

determined to meet. That is why we're talking about bread and butter

policies to make people's lives better. These local elections took

place midtown. Normally mid-term was the worst time for a government. --

took place midterm. And the best for an opposition. That is a feature of

British politics. So why did you lose 382 councillors in a midterm

election? As Andy Burnham said when he gave his acceptance speech after

his terrific first ballot result win in Manchester, it was an evening of

mixed results for Labour. Generally bad, wasn't it? Why did you lose all

of these councillors midterm? It is not a welcome result for Labour, I

am not going to be deluded. But what I and the Labour Party are focused

on is the next four weeks. And how we are going to put across policies

like free school meals for primary school children, ?10 an hour minimum

wage, the pledge not to increase tax for low and middle earners, 95% of

earners in this country. And saving the NHS from privatisation and

funding it properly. These are just some of the policies, including by

the way a boost in carers' allowance, that will make the lives

of people in Britain better off. Labour are for the many, not for the

few. But people like from political parties aspiring to government is to

be united and to be singing from the same song sheet among the leaders.

You mentioned Andy Burnham. Why did he not join Mr Corbyn when Jeremy

Corbyn went to the rally in Manchester on Friday to celebrate

his victory? First of all, Andy Burnham did a radio interview

straight after his great victory in which he said Jeremy Corbyn helped

him to win votes in that election. Why didn't he turn up? As to the

reason Andy Burnham wasn't there at the meeting Jeremy was doing in

Manchester, it was because, I understand, Andy was booked into

celebrate his victory with his family that night. I don't begrudge

him that and hopefully you don't. The leader has made the effort to

travel to Manchester to celebrate one of the few victories you enjoyed

on Thursday, surely you would join the leader and celebrate together?

Well, I don't regard, and I am sure you don't, Andy Burnham a nice time

with his family... -- I don't begrudge. He made it clear Jeremy

Corbyn assisted him. I can see you are not convinced yourself. I am

convinced. The outgoing Labour leader in Derbyshire lost his seat

on Thursday, you lost Derbyshire, which was a surprise in itself... He

said that genuine party supporters said they were not voting Labour

while you have Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Are you hearing that on the

doorstep too? I have been knocking on hundreds of doors this week in my

constituency and elsewhere. And of course, you never get every single

voter thinking the leader of any political party is the greatest

thing since sliced bread. But it's only on a minority of doorsteps that

people are criticising the Labour leader. Most people aren't even

talking about these questions. Most people are talking about Jeremy

Corbyn's policies, free primary school meals, ?10 an hour minimum

wage. Also policies such as paternity pay, maternity pay and

sickness pay for the self-employed, that have been hard-pressed under

this government. So I don't recognise that pitch of despondency,

but I understand that in different areas, in local elections,

perspectives are different. That was Derbyshire. The outgoing Labour

leader of Nottinghamshire County Council said there was concern on

the doorstep about whether Jeremy Corbyn was the right person to lead

the Labour Party, and even Rotherham, loyal to Mr Corbyn, won

the mail contest in Liverpool, he said that the Labour leader was more

might on the doorstep. -- the mayor contest. Does that explain some of

the performance on Thursday? I am confident that in the next four

weeks, when we get into coverage on television, that people will see

further the kind of open leadership Jeremy provides. In contrast to

Theresa May's refusal to meet ordinary people. She came to my

constituency and I don't think that a single person who lives here. And

also she is ducking the chance to debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. She

should do it and let the people decide. I don't know why she won't.

Finally, the Labour mantra is that you are the party of the ordinary

people, why is it the case that among what advertisers call C2s, D

and E', how can you on the pulse of that social group, how can you do

that? Our policy is to assist, protect and improve the living

standards of people in those groups and our policy is to protect the

living standards of the majority... They do not seem to be convinced? We

have four weeks to convince them and I believe that we will. Thank you

for coming onto the programme. But the wooden spoon from Thursday's

elections undoubtedly went to Ukip. Four years ago the party

won its best ever local government performance,

but this time its support just Ukip's share of the vote

plunging by as much as 18 points, most obviously

benefiting the Conservatives. So is it all over for

the self-styled people's army? Well we're joined now

by the party's leader in the Welsh Assembly,

Neil Hamilton, he's in Cardiff. Neil Hamilton, welcome. Ukip

finished local elections gaining the same number of councillors as the

Rubbish Party, one. That sums up your prospects, doesn't

it? Rubbish? We have been around a long time and seemed that I'd go

out, go in again, we will keep calm and carry on. We are in a phoney

war, negotiations on Brexit have not started but what we know from

Theresa May is that in seven years, as Home Secretary and Prime

Minister, she has completely failed to control immigration which was one

of the great driving forces behind the Brexit result. I'm not really

looking for any great success in immigration from the Tories, and a

lot of people who have previously voted for Ukip will be back in our

part of the field again. They don't seem to care about that at the

moment, your party lost 147 council seats. You gain one. It is time to

shut up shop, isn't it? You are right, the voters are not focusing

on other domestic issues at the moment. They have made up their

minds going into these negotiations in Brussels, Theresa May, as Prime

Minister, needs as much support as she can get. I think they are wrong

in this respect, it would be better to have a cohort of Ukip MPs to back

her up. She was greatly helped by the intervention of Mr Juncker last

week as well, the stupidity in how the European Commission has tried to

bully the British government, in those circumstances the British

people will react in one way going the opposite way to what the

Brussels establishment one. She has been fortunate as an acute tactician

in having the election now. I struggle to see the way back for

your party. You aren't a threat to the Tories in the south. Ukip voters

are flocking to the Tories in the south. You don't threaten Labour in

the north. It is the Tories who threaten Labour now in the north.

There is no room to progress, is there? The reality will be is that

once we are back on the domestic agenda again, and the Brexit

negotiations are concluded, we will know what the outcome is. And the

focus will be on bread and butter issues. We have all sorts of

policies in our programme which other parties cannot match us on.

The talk is putting up taxes to help the health service, we would scrap

the foreign aid budget and put another ?8 billion in the health

service, no other party says that. These policies would be popular with

the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the

the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the meltdown of

what happened, no matter who is leader? These are cosmic forces

beyond the control of any individual at the moment, it is certainly not

Paul Nuttall's .com he's been in the job for six months and in half that

time he was fighting a by-election -- certainly not Paul Nuttall's

fault. We have two become more professional than we have been

recently. It has not been a brilliant year for Ukip one way or

another, as you know, but there are prospects, in future, that are very

rosy. I do not believe that the Tories will deliver on other

promises that they are now making. The Welsh assembly elections are not

until 2021, you are a member of that, but at that point you will not

have any MEPs, because we will be out on the timetable. With this

current showing he will have no end', you could be Ukip's most

senior elected representative. That would be a turnout for the books! --

no elected MPs. The Tories are not promoting the policies that I

believe them. You will see that in the Ukip manifesto when it is

shortly publish... Leaders talk mainly about the male genital

mutilation and is -- female and burqas. No, when the manifesto

launched, we have a lot of policies, I spoke moments ago about it, but

also on foreign aid. Scrapping green taxes, to cut people's electricity

bills by ?300 per year on average. There are a lot of popular policies

that we have. We will hear more from that in the weeks to come.

Paul Nuttall said "If the price of written leaving the year is a Tory

advance after taking up this patriarch course, it is a price that

Ukip is prepared to pay". That sounds like a surrender statement?

It is a statement of fact, the main agenda is to get out of the EU and

have full Brexit. That is why Ukip came into existence 20 years ago.

When it is achieved, we go back to the normal political battle lines.

Niall Hamilton in Cardiff, thank you very much for joining us.

It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes - we'll be talking about the French

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

With just under five weeks to polling day,

will the election be all about Brexit

or will other issues start to dominate the agenda?

And what are the main concerns of our smaller parties?

We'll hear from the Green Party and People Before Profit

Plus, in another election, the French head to the polls

in the second and decisive round in the Presidential election.

What impact will the new President have on the rest of Europe?

And with their thoughts on that and more, my guests of the day

and public affairs consultant Anna Mercer.

At the last Westminster election, issues like abortion,

austerity and same sex marriage dominated a lot of the campaign.

Some argued that sense of 'normality' helped

the Green Party and People Before Profit perform well.

But with Brexit dominating the campaign and stalemate

at Stormont, can they repeat the success of two years ago?

Joining me now are the Green Party's Georgina Milne

and Gerry Carroll from People Before Profit -

and, by the way, we did invite the TUV

to take part in today's discussion,

George, the first of all, you campaign did not get off to the best

of starts, arguably, as your leader seemed to tie himself in knots at

the prospect of a packed with Andy Brexit parties. Have you managed to

put that behind you? I would disagree that the dog of packed boys

in anyway negative. I think discussing the possibility of April

remain alliance was the just and democratic thing to do. Whenever

that came back to the Green party Executive, we decided a pact would

not be right for us but I think we did the right thing in considering

it and we just think it is unfortunate that some parties did

try to sectarian eyes the issue. Any chance of a pact came to a halt when

the SDLP decided to select its sitting LP as its candidate in south

Belfast. Did you really think that he would step aside for Claire

Bailey when he had polled four times her vote to Mike years ago? That is

what Steve Matthew suggested. I think regarding the pact in south

Belfast, one of the most difficult issues for the Green Party, with a

long and unbroken record of championing LGBT and women's rights,

would be asking Green supporters to get behind a candidate who did not

see those issues are the same way the Green Party would. Alistair

MacDonald accused the Green Party of scratching around looking for

relevance at the time of all of the discussion about pact in south

Belfast. Did that hurt? I do not think it hurt. It was the right

thing to do to consider it. The Green Party have long been champions

of grassroots democracy and we did the right thing in considering the

pack. However, we did come to the conclusion it would not work for us

and this time around, we are very pleased to be fielding seven

candidates in the election. So what are the main issues for

those seven candidates? Undoubtedly Brexit is a key, critical priority

issue. Make no mistake, Tory austerity and equality will be key

issues on the agenda and key issues that the Green Party will be

campaigning on. A very powerful, positive and strong message. The

issues. Brexit, equality and social justice issues will be on

everybody's lips. What about those moral issues that

you can bid for strong Lyon on previous elections, they followed by

the wayside? Become an absolutely not, that dive into quality, which

the Green Party have long been champions of. We are proud to listen

to women, stand up for 's rights, LGBT rates, marriage equality. We

were the first party to bring marriage equality to the Assembly

and will not let that poll by the wayside. The Greens are running

seven candidates. So far, People Before Profit have announced two. Is

that it is far as you're concerned? We are on two at the minute and we

are meeting in the next few days to confirm where we are standing and

the full list of candidates will be decided. It is worth seeing, we have

had the elections in a year. We are a small party without corporate

donations, we do not receive donations from rich Irish-American

capitalists and the elections in a year is tough for a party with

limited resources. We will be throwing herself into this election

and providing an alternative, but there may be an election, and

Assembly election, in October as well and that puts pressure on small

parties who do not have the resources of some other big parties

but we are up for standing in this election. Georgina has told us what

the key issues of the Green Party. What are the big issues for People

Before Profit? What will you be discussing with potential voters on

the doorsteps? A lot of things. Talking about Brexit, they should

not be a hard border into limited and Theresa May should not be

allowed to use Brexit as a way to advance her agenda, to further boost

on taxes for corporations, to attack workers' rights and attack other

things. Also this is about austerity, as Georgina said. How

austerity has devastated communities and public services. We will be

providing an alternative voice in the selection that is going to stand

up for voters, communities and public services. I said quite

clearly, they are cutting taxes for corporations and are trying to kill

off that there is no money for public services. It is a question

about priorities and what is more important, cutting taxes for the

rich and corporations are putting money into health and education.

Also the issue of mental health crisis in our society. We will be

providing a strong message on this in our election. Their prime Minster

fundamentally citizens about Brexit. It is likely to come up the

doorsteps, as far as People Before Profit are concerned, if for no

other reason than because you prepared to flip-flop dramatically.

First, you campaigned for Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK to

leave the EU and now plan to fight them on an anti-Tory Brexit

platform. What precisely is People Before Profit's message on Brexit?

Are you pro-Brexit or Andy Brexit? We are against a Tory Brexit.

Theresa May is using it to trying to advance the interests of the British

elite, the rich and the wealthy in society. What does that actually

mean? Never mind Tory Brexit, what is your position on Brexit? You said

it was a good idea and campaigned for it, along with elements on the

Tory party. It is now happening and you do not like the she bothered? We

are for leaving the EU and had a unique position which was arguing

that the EU has created austerity for people in Ireland, people in

Greece. That was our critique and our opposition to the EU. Regardless

of whether people go to remain relief in the EU, the question is

are people going to stand up against the hard border, are against Theresa

May's attacks and her plans to implement further tax cuts for

corporation? We are standing against that and it is worth seeing that

David Cameron would have pursued that, a stronger case for that, if

he had added weight and got to remain on board. In this election,

we are putting forward an anti-Tory Brexit argument and arguing against

what the Tories are pushing. Do you still think Brexit is a good idea? I

think leaving the European Union was the correct decision but what has to

happen now is people should be putting forward a strong argument

against a Tory Brexit. That is what the Tories are trying to do. Theresa

May is trying to shake Brexit in the interests of the capitalists and

ruling elite. Your gritters also, always said that if you put or

delete it could be had Brexit, but despite those warnings, he said it

was a good idea and people voted for it. You said the vote should be

respected and you now seem to be going back on that? We are very

clear. We were always against the Tory Brexit. We were clear in the

referendum campaign that we were against the Tory Brexit and what the

Tory party were pursuing. We were clear enough and against what they

are trying to do now. Stand up against a hard border, stand up

against the austerity agenda and we can still do that whilst critiquing

the EU policies and how the EU has actually implemented the policies on

the rich and only all across Europe and devastated austerity for people

in Ireland and Greece. We want to see a different kind of Europe as

that is not going to come from the EU bureaucrats or the jury party.

Georgina, you're also a candidate. -- the Tory party. Is the issue of

Brexit coming up? Are people concerned from either side of the

fence, depending how they voted and copy the things unfolding, I've

concerned that what might lie ahead in the next couple of years?

Absolutely. When David Cameron and the Tory Government machine brought

us to the polls last year for this referendum, nobody knew what we were

voting for. For that reason, the Green Party are campaigning for a

referendum on the terms of the final Brexit deal. That will essentially

mean that all people can have their say on what their vision of Brexit

is, as opposed to blindly following Theresa May and the Tory vision of a

hard Brexit said she is hell-bent on. I wonder how much common ground

there is between your party and People Before Profit. He says he

does not want a Theresa May Stell Brexit. You do not want a Theresa

May style Brexit either. Though Jerry Carroll says he still thinks

we should leave the EU, you think, despite not wanting a hard Brexit,

we need to find some alternative way. It is very confusing for

people, let's be honest. Absolutely. The Green Party campaigned to remain

and we would very much like to see what, -- like to see, whatever

happens, that people get their final say on that deal. A hard border

would be disastrous for the communities that live around that

and for the agricultural industry. I want a quick word about Stormont,

because this is a Westminster general election. Jerry, you were

returned as an MLA at the last Assembly election a few short weeks

ago, it has to be said. We may have another before too long, perhaps in

the autumn. Is it very, very hard for the small parties to find

relevance in a general election, when Stormont is in stalemate?

Obviously it is difficult circumstances but in terms of the

Westminster election, we can provide an alternative voice. We can be a

voice for the voiceless and can represent the millions and not the

millionaires in this election. By raising these issues, but not

seriously by winning there? It is possible. People did not predict the

EU referendum... It is possible but not probable. Polls cannot be

everything. What people are looking for is an alternative voice. In this

election, I would be the only viable candidate.

If you want your seat, would you take it? I would. How relevant is

the politics of the Green Party during a general election, where

you're running seven candidates, it is not impossible but unlikely that

you will win a Westminster seat. Let's be clear. We are running seven

candidates, four of whom are women. Over 50% of our poster presenters

will be women and we are open other parties will take early. The Green

Party have never been in a better position regarding money, resources,

people to contest a general election. Our vote share has

increased the last number of elections and we are optimistic and

hopeful. We need to leave it there. Thank you both for coming in

joiners. -- coming into joiners. Let's hear from our guests

of the day, Professor Rick Wilford

and Anna Mercer. Both parties confident

of continued growth, It is a difficult time. They will

have some impact, obviously. If only in shipping the agenda of the

narrative, if you like, of the election campaign. There is quite a

lot of common ground between the Green Party and People Before Profit

on a number of issues, but electorally, I think they are going

to be squeezed, not least because the unionist electorate has been

absolutely galvanised for this election by the outcome of the

Assembly election back in March. I suspect that this election is going

to be, if anything, even more pro-sectarian than the person that

will have a detrimental effect, I suspect, literally on the smaller

parties. The last general election, the big five to just under 90% of

the vote. The remainder was spread across the smaller, minor parties

and a range of independence. They are only going to have a marginal

impact in terms of, certainly I do not see them winning any seeds,

perhaps with the exception And Alliance. With all of the issues

confronting Northern Ireland, I think they have a key role to play.

What do you think this election is likely to be about from a voter 's

perspective? I think Brexit obviously is the context we are

going into this election under. Northern Ireland did vote to remain,

however the DUP in particular and the Ulster Unionist Party afterwords

have taken a pretty strong parolees approach. I think we cannot sort of

disassociates that from the last Assembly election. -- a pretty

strong lead approach. It will be very much in their minds that they

came within one seat of Sinn Fein. They will be wanting to consolidate

their position and thinking about how they want to do this without

increasing the Nationalist vote as per the last election. We may have

to wait and see whether there will be a unionist Pact, because the

parties have got until 4pm Thursday afternoon to actually, when

nominations close, so the DUP and UUP have only got four days to come

up with a pact, if there is to be one. And of course, it is

distinguished possible that we will see some tactical voting in some of

those constituencies, which could be very much to the detriment of the

smaller parties. If people decide that this is about Brexit, for or

against, they will perhaps focus on the two main candidates on either

side of the fence. Yes, and it is first past the post. The Assembly

elections you voted on the ticket, to get one drowsiness, so that

probably will mean people will go towards the safer bet. The smaller

parties will be looking to use this opportunity to prove themselves and

set out their stall. But ultimately, first past the post favours the

larger parties. That is what makes a very interesting. Thanks very much.

We will talk to you both later. and take a look at the week

gone past in 60 seconds, Sinn Fein's Michelle O'Neill

defended her attendance at a commemoration for eight IRA men shot

dead by the SAS. I see no contradiction whatsoever in

commemorating a republican dead whilst reaching out to our Unionist

neighbours. I do not think yesterday did anything to reach out to

unionism. Belfast City Council 's back a

position to create an Irish language officer, and one Alliance member

welcomed the move in Irish. As a member of the Presbyterian

Church in Ireland, I am delighted to support a new language policy. The

EU said it sold over Brexit negotiations and Northern Ireland

made the headlines. I will pay great attention to the situation in

Ireland, and I will go to Ireland next week.

And the demand for special EU status continued. Northern Ireland is one

part of the UK that can rejoin the EU in future, but without an Article

49 negotiation. Now, French voters go to the polls

to elect a new President today. So will they go for

a pro-European liberal who's still something

of an unknown entity, or a far-right challenger

to the establishment, who has vowed to take

on globalisation and France's relationship

with the EU? Whoever wins - Emmanuel Macron

or Marine Le Pen - what impact will it have

on the rest of Europe? who's Professor of European Politics

at Queen's University. David, hello. Thank you for joining

us. The last two weeks of the campaign have been quite brutal. The

country is very divided. How difficult will it be for whoever

wins to unite the French people? I think it is going to be very

difficult for them to unite the French people. Because also

following the presidential elections we will have a parliamentary

election as well so you will see competition there as well. I think

there is obviously an expectation that Macron will probably win, given

that the opinion polls, and there is a sense that he will get some degree

of continuity in France's European policy with that. But obviously, if

Marine Le Pen wins, then everything is up for question. I think the

other thing to remember is that Marine Le Pen getting just over 20%

of the vote, that are left it in just over 20% of the vote, so come

the next presidential election, you probably still got that split within

the French public over what their preferences are for the future of

France. A lot of commentators have been saying that turnout could have

a very big impact on the final result, but if Marine Le Pen were to

be successful and overturn the huge lead in the polls that Emmanuelle

Macron has, just how remarkable would that be in your view? I think

it would be, well, it creates a enormous uncertainty as to what the

French position is going to be. She would still need to get an amazing

result in the parliamentary elections to secure a majority

support within the parliament, and there is the view that without that

Parliamentary support, she is going to be hamstrung. But I think she is

still necessarily going to be very vocal in her opposition to the euro

and there is going to be a debate here as to whether French should

stay in the EU. It's created an enormous degree of uncertainty, and

I think it is fair to say that the last majority of the other EU member

states are desperately praying for a Emmanuel Macron victory. If that is

what happened, what you think the impact will be over the course of

discussions over the next two years as far as is concerned? Is Macron

wins, we will likely see the unity of the EU 27 consolidated. He will

be wanting to ensure that the EU comes out of this exceedingly well,

that it remains and you can actually continue the process of European

integration and he is keen to revive it. It is very unclear what will

actually happen if Marine Le Pen wins. I think she is going to be

very sympathetic to the British desire to leave and will probably

not stand in the way of it at all. Which is a very strange conundrum,

is it not, from Downing Street's perspective? For that reason, they

might want Marine Le Pen to win, but probably for every other reason

would not want her to win. Let's assume that Macron is successful.

Does that been that it is going to be a much tougher negotiation, is

what you are saying, as far as Theresa May is concerned? She may

get a lot less of what she wants? It is going to be a tough negotiation

either way. The one thing we have noticed over the last nine months is

the unity of the 27. That has been quite remarkable for a lot of

people. And that will not change if Macron is in there? No, I think that

will become stronger. We got a German election coming up in the

autumn as well but both of the leading candidates they are are

equally as pro-EU as Macron. We had this final twist on Friday evening,

when Mr Macron political movement ended up being the victim of a

massive hack with documents released online. We have not, for reasons to

do with how the media has dealt with this in France, we have not seen the

details. They have not been widely reported. Do you think that is

unlikely to have a huge impact on the final outcome, or could that

produce the real surprise? It could go both ways. One, there are these

allegations out there which will reinforce Marine Le Pen's vote for

the people who but equally we are deeply suspicious of the origins, or

alleged origins of a lot of these leaks and suggest there is an

interference with it, and that would have been designed to help Marine Le

Pen. Figures have pointed in Russia's direction. It had been

predicted that this might happen -- this happen. As far as Europe is

concerned, we should not underplay the significance of this report for

the European project over the next two years and beyond? It is a very

significant day today. two years and beyond? It is a very

significant. You are faced with a high level of disruption if Marine

Le Pen wins or a far greater continuity in the French position.

We also need to note that Macron is Europhile and he has got ideas about

pushing for further integration further down the line, and so I

could actually see greater cooperation between the EU,

particularly around the Eurozone, which on the one hand could

consolidated but equally good open up some of the divisions within the

EU longer term. It is a fascinating situation. We should get a better

picture of that final outcome this evening, when polls close.

Rick Wilford and Anna Mercer are still with me.

Just a very quick word about that. What bearing to the two have --

tonight might have on the Northern Ireland in particular? Immense. I

think Ukip will be wanting Marine Le Pen to win and I think I agree with

David in the sense that for them, that would be an easier proposition

in relation to Brexit. Macron is a reconstructed Europhile and I think

he has already said, I think, that he would be looking for really tough

negotiation with the UK. Mrs may paradoxically perhaps would rather

not have a liberal minded person in the early is a palace! For us, well,

goodness knows. We do not know where we are, the UK does not know where

we are, there are so many options and possibilities. What Macron will

do will push hard for pretty tough negotiation with the UK and that

could have a detrimental effect on us. It is going to be very

interesting because we have got the EU's chief negotiator addressing the

doll later this week. We have also got Tony Blair coming over to be a

guest speaker at a conference. The European focus is going to be very

close to our own door. It'll be interesting to see what some of

these key figures have to say. Absolutely. To me, it has been the

contrast in the approach of the UK Government and Irish Government. We

have seen a much more partnership approach from the Irish government,

the nod to the EU diplomacy style. And engaging with other politicians

across Europe. The British government have been very forthright

and very assertive in making a set of demands, which is much closer to

the US model of diplomacy. I think if they want to learn anything from

Northern Ireland, they need to build partnerships. What underpins

partnership is trust and wherever that is not there, things fall apart

and we do not need to look too far to see an example of that. They have

got off on the wrong footing and need to put their heads together

again. Very interesting situation unfolding before our eyes. Thank you

again. Very interesting situation housing associations and investment,

but unfolding before our eyes. Thank you

both unfolding before our eyes. Thank you

but we unfolding before our eyes. Thank you

both very unfolding before our eyes. Thank you

but we have unfolding before our eyes. Thank you

both very much indeed. Four weeks to go until polling day

on the 8th of June, what will the party strategies be for the

remaining four weeks? Let's begin with the Conservatives. Do they just

try to continue to play it safe for four weeks? Yes, with this important

qualification. Theresa May Corp this election to get her own personal

mandate partly, partly because she thought she would win big but to get

her own personal mandate. Therefore, she needs to define it. In her own

interests and to do with accountability to the country. So

clearly, they will not take risks when they are so far ahead in the

polls. What they do say in the manifesto matters in

terms of the space that she has in the coming years to define her

leadership against David Cameron 's. She is a free figure, partly on the

basis of what she says as to how big she wins. They cannot just play it

safe and repeat their mantra of strong and stable leadership, if she

is going to claim her own mandate, they need the top policy? Yes, and

what is unusual about this is that the manifesto matters far more

because of what they need to do with it afterwards, than in terms of

whether it is going to win anybody over now. Clearly, the strategy is

yes, we do have two layout out a few things, there are interesting

debates as to whether, for example, they will still commit to this

ambition of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands, we do not

know the answer yet. It is a question on whether she is setting

herself up for difficulties later on. It will be a short manifesto, I

would venture to guess? It is in her interests to be as noncommittal as

possible, that argues for a short manifesto but what does strike me

about the Conservative campaign, aside from the ambiguity on policy,

is how personal it is. I think Theresa May, in her most recent

speech, referred to "My local candidates", rather than

Parliamentary candidates, very much framing it as a presidential

candidate in France or the USA. Not a rational on her part. Everything I

hear from the MPs on the ground and the focus groups being done by the

parties, is that a big chunk of the population personally identify with

her. If you can wrap up Middle England into a physical object and

embody it in a person, it would be her. Although Jeremy Corbyn's

unpopularity accounts for a big slice of her popularity, she has

done a good job of bonding with the public. We never saw that coming!

But you may well be right. That is happening now. Labour say it wants

the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell to play a more prominent role in the

Labour campaign, he was on The Andrew Marr Show this morning and he

was asked if he was a Marxist, he denied that he was. It surprised me

as I had seen tape from before saying that he was proud of it.

Let's look now and then. Are you a Marxist? I believe that there is a

lot to learn... Yes or no? I believe that there is a lot to learn from

reading capital, that is recommended not only by me but measuring

economists as well. I also believe that in the long tradition of the

Labour Party... We need to demand systemic change. I am a Marxist.

This is a classic crisis of the economy. A capitalist crisis. I've

been waiting for this for a generation! That was from about four

years ago. No, I'm not a Marxist, yes, I am a Marxist... I've been

waiting for the Marxist revolution my whole life... Does this kind of

thing matter? Yes, but in fairness, I think he is a really good

interviewee. The Shadow Cabinet have untested figures in a national

campaign. None have ever been exposed at any level to a national

media campaign that they are about to experience. He is the best

interviewee. In fairness to him, when he gave that clip four years

ago, I bet he never dream that he would be in a senior front bench

position. But the background is clear. They are of the left, and I

think they would all have described it. Jeremy Corbyn would have done,

he is close to being like Tony Benn. There are about four Labour campaign

is being fought in this election. Their campaign, the old Shadow

Cabinet, campaigning in constituencies, but not identifying

with that campaign. There is the former Labour leader Tony Blair. Is

it damaging? I think so, if they could be damaged any further, I

could see all of the Labour MPs with their heads in their hands. What I

am hearing from Labour MPs is that there is not one of them who do not

feel that they have a horrendous battle on their hands. These will be

very individual local campaigns, where local MPs are winning despite

the party leadership and not because of it. Already, talk is turning to

what happens next. Is there anyway that Jeremy Corbyn, giving a

horrendous set of general election results as many anticipate, may stay

on all the same? It is not clear that even if the polls are right,

that Mr Corbyn will go? John McDonnell implied it might not be

the case but previously, he said it would be. What do you make of

reports that the Labour strategy is not, I cannot quite believe I am

saying this, not to win seats but maximise a share of the vote. If

they do better than Ed Miliband with 30.5% of the vote, they believe they

live to fight another day? Yes, it reminded me of Tony Benn's speech

after the 1983 election where they said as bad as the Parliamentary

defeat was there were 8 million votes for socialism. A big section

of public opinion voted for that manifesto. I wonder whether that is

Corbyn's supporters best chance of holding onto power. Whether they can

say that those votes are a platform on which we can build. That said,

even moderate Labour MPs and desperate for a quick leadership

contest. I hear a lot of them say that they would like to leave it for

one year. Maybe have Tom Watson as an acting Labour leader. He would

still have a mandate. Give the top party a chance to regroup and get

rid of some of its problems and decide where it stands on policy.

Most importantly, for potential candidates to show what they are

made of, rather than lurching straight into an Yvette Cooper

Coronation. 30 seconds on the Liberal Democrats, their strategy

was to mop up the Remain vote. Uncertain about the Brexit party in

demise. Ukip. The remain as have a dilemma, the little Democrats are

not a strong enough vessel with 89 MPs to risk all ongoing for them --

the Liberal Democrats. Labour do not know where they stand on Brexit.

There is not a robust alternative vessel for what is now a pro-Brexit

Conservative Party. At the moment. Four weeks to go, but not for

France... France has been voting since early

this morning, and we should get a first estimate of who will be

the country's next President Just to warn you there are some

flashing images coming up. The choice in France

is between a centre-left liberal reformer Emmanuel Macron

and a right-wing nationalist Marine Le Pen - both have been

casting their votes this morning. The two candidates topped

a field of 11 presidential hopefuls in the first

round of elections last month. The campaign has been marked

by its unpredictability, and in a final twist on Friday

evening, just before campaigning officially ended,

Mr Macron's En Marche! group said it had been the victim

of a "massive" hack, with a trove of documents

released online. The Macron team said real documents

were mixed up with fake ones, and electoral authorities warned

media and the public that spreading details of the leaks would breach

strict election rules. I'm joined now from

Paris by the journalist As I left Paris recently, everybody

told me that there was the consensus that Mr Macron would win, and win

pretty comfortable you. Is there any reason to doubt that? -- pretty

comfortably. I don't think so, there have been so many people left and

right, former candidates who have decided that it was more important

to vote for Macron, even if it was agreed with him, then run the risk

of having Marine Le Pen as president. I think the spread is now

20 points, 60% to Macron, 40% to Le Pen. So outside of the margin of

error that it would take something huge for this to be observed. If the

polls are right and Mr Macron wins, he has to put together a government,

and in May there is a Coronation, then he faces parliamentary

elections in June and could face a fractured parliament where he does

not have a clear majority for his reforms. He could then faced

difficulties in getting his programme through? I think that

right now, with how things are looking, considering you have one

half of the Republican party, the Conservative Party, they are making

clear sides, not only that they want to support Macron but are supporting

him actively. It means looking at the equivalent of the German party,

the great coalition. Depending on how many seats established parties

keep in the house committee may very well have a Republican Prime

Minister, rather than having an adversarial MP, he may have someone

who is relatively unknown outside of France, and a young woman. Contended

that lost the Parez mayorship three years ago. She is a scientist and

has been secretary of state. She would be an interesting coalition

Prime Minister. Finally, Marine Le Pen, if she goes down to defeat a

night, does she have the stomach and ambition, and the energy, to try it

all again in 2022? She has all of that. The question is, would they

let her? How badly would she lose? Her niece, now 27, a hard-working

and steady person, unlike Marine Le Pen, who flunked her do paid --

debate, her niece may decide that 2022 is her turn. Yet another Le

Pen! All right, we will see. Just five years to wait, but only a few

hours until the results of the election tonight.

And we will get the exit polls here on the BBC. Given the exit polls

will give as a pretty fair indication of what the result is

going to be tonight. That will be on BBC news. That's all for today.

The Daily Politics will cover every turn of this election campaign,

And we're back here on BBC One at our usual time Next Sunday.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.