07/05/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


The local election results made grim reading for Labour.


With just a month to go until the general election,


will promising to rule out tax rises for all but the well off help


The Conservatives have their own announcement on mental health,


as they strain every sinew to insist they don't think they've got


But is there still really all to play for?


And tonight we will find out who is the next


President of France - Emmanuel Macron or Marine Le Pen -


after an unpredictable campaign that ended with a hack attack


The starting gun has been fired in the general election,


but what issues will dominate the campaign here?


We'll hear from the Green Party and People Before Profit.


Join me in half an hour. potential impact in marginals next


month. If Ukip support continues to evaporate...


And joining me for all of that, three journalists ready


to analyse the week's politics with all the forensic


focus of Diane Abbott preparing for an interview,


and all the relaxed, slogan-free banter of Theresa May


It's Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.


So, the Conservatives are promising, if re-elected, to change mental


health laws in England and Wales to tackle discrimination,


and they're promising 10,000 more staff working in NHS mental health


treatment in England by 2020 - although how that's to be


Here's Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt speaking


There is a lot of new money going into it.


In January, we said we were going to put an extra ?1 billion


Does this come from other parts of the NHS, or is it


No, it is new money going into the NHS


It's not just of course money, it's having the people


who deliver these jobs, which is why we need


Well, we're joined now from Norwich by the Liberal Democrat health


This weekend, they've launched their own health announcement,


promising a 1% rise on every income tax band to fund the NHS.


Do you welcome the Conservatives putting mental health onto the


campaign agenda in the way that they have? I welcome it being on the


campaign agenda but I do fear that the announcement is built on thin


air. You raised the issue at the start about the 10,000 extra staff,


and questions surrounding how it would be paid for. There is no


additional money on what they have already announced for the NHS. We


know it falls massively short on the expectation of the funding gap


which, by 2020, is likely to be about 30 billion. That is not


disputed now. Anyone outside of the government, wherever you are on the


political spectrum, knows the money going in is simply not enough. So,


rather like the claim that they would add 5000 GPs to the workforce


by 2020, that is not on target. Latest figures show a fall in the


number of GPs. They make these claims, but I'm afraid they are


without substance, unless they are prepared to put money behind it.


Your party's solution to the money problem is to put a 1% percentage


point on all of the bands of income tax to raise more money 20-45. Is


that unfair? Most pensioners who consume 40% of NHS spending, but


over 65s only pay about 20% of income tax. Are you penalising the


younger generations for the health care of an older generation? It is


the first step in what we are describing as a 5-point recovery


plan for the NHS and care system. So, for what is available to us now,


it seems to be the fairest way of bringing in extra resources, income


tax is progressive, and is based on your ability to pay for your average


British worker. It would be ?3 per week which is the cost of less than


two cups of coffee per week. In the longer run, we say that by the end


of the next Parliament, we would be able to introduce a dedicated NHS


and care tax. Based, probably, around a reformed national insurance


system, so it becomes a dedicated NHS and care tax. Interestingly, the


former permanent secretary of the Treasury, Nick MacPherson, said


clearly that this idea merits further consideration which is the


first time anyone for the Treasury has bought into the idea of this.


Let me ask you this. You say it is a small amount of tax that people on


average incomes will have to pay extra. We are talking about people


who have seen no real increases to their income since 2007. They have


been struggling to stand still in terms of their own pay, but you are


going to add to their tax, and as I said earlier, most of the health


care money will then go to pensioners whose incomes have risen


by 15%. I'm interested in the fairness of this redistribution?


Bearing in mind first of all, Andrew, that the raising of the tax


threshold that the Liberal Democrats pushed through in the coalition


increased the effective pay in your pocket for basic rate taxpayers by


about ?1000. We are talking about a tiny fraction of that. I suppose


that you do have to ask, all of us in this country need to ask


ourselves this question... Are we prepared to pay, in terms of the


average worker, about ?3 extra per week to give us a guarantee that


when our loved ones need that care, in their hour of need, perhaps


suspected cancer, that care will be available for them? I have heard two


cases recently brought my attention. An elderly couple, the wife has a


very bad hip. They could not allow the weight to continue. She was told


that she would need to wait 26 weeks, she was in acute pain. They


then deduct paying ?20,000 for private treatment to circumvent


waiting time. They hated doing it, because they did not want to jump


the queue. But that is what is increasingly happening. Sorry to


interrupt, Norman Lamb comedy make very good points but we are short on


time today. One final question, it looks like you might have the chance


to do any of this, I'm told the best you can hope to do internally is to


double the number of seats you have, which would only take you to 18. Do


you think that promising to raise people's income tax, even those on


average earnings, is a vote winner? I think the people in this country


are crying out for politicians to be straight and tenet as it is. At the


moment we heading towards a Conservative landslide... -- tell it


as it is. But do we want a 1-party state? We are electing a government


not only to deal with the crucial Brexit negotiations, but oversee the


stewardship of the NHS and funding of our schools, all of these


critical issues. We need an effective opposition and with the


Labour Party having taken itself off stage, the Liberal Democrats need to


provide an effective opposition. Norman Lamb, thank you for joining


us this morning. Thank you. Labour and Tories are anxious


to stress the general election result is not a foregone conclusion,


whatever the polls say. Order you just heard Norman Lamb say


there that he thought the Conservatives were heading for a


landslide... But did Thursday's dramatic set


of local election results in England, Scotland and Wales give


us a better idea of how the country Here's Emma Vardy with


a behind-the-scenes look at how Good morning, it's seven o'clock


on Friday, May 5th... The dawn of another results day.


Anticipation hung in the air. Early results from the local


elections in England suggest there's been a substantial swing


from Labour to the Conservatives. While the pros did their thing,


I needed breakfast. Don't tell anyone, but I'm


going to pinch a sausage. The overnight counts had delivered


successes for the Tories. But with most councils


only getting started, there was plenty of action


still to come. It's not quite the night


of Labour's nightmares. There's enough mixed news


in Wales, for example - looks like they're about to hold


Cardiff - that they'll try and put But in really simple terms,


four weeks from a general election, the Tories are going forward


and Labour are going backwards. How does it compare being


in here to doing the telly? Huw, how do you prepare yourself


for a long day of results, then? We're not even on air yet,


as you can see, and already in Tory HQ this morning,


there's a kind of, "Oh, I'm scared this will make people


think the election's just I think leave it


like that - perfect. I want the Laura look.


This is really good, isn't it? Usually, we're in here


for the Daily Politics. But it's been transformed


for the Election Results programme. But hours went by without Ukip


winning a single seat. The joke going around


Lincolnshire County Council today from the Conservatives


is that the Tories have eaten We will rebrand


and come back strong. Morale, I think, is inevitably


going to take a bit of a tumble. Particularly if Theresa May starts


backsliding on Brexit. And then I think we will be


totally reinvigorated. There are a lot of good people


in Ukip and I wouldn't want to say anything unkind,


but we all know it's over. Ukip press officer.


Difficult job. Ukip weren't the only ones


putting a brave face on it. Labour were experiencing


their own disaster day too, losing hundreds of seats


and seven councils. If the result is what these


results appear to indicate, Can we have a quick word


for the Sunday Politics? A quick question for Sunday Politics


- how are you feeling? Downhearted or fired up for June?


Fired up, absolutely fired up. He's fired up.


We're going to go out there... We cannot go on with another


five years of this. How's it been for you today?


Tiring. It always is, but I love elections,


I really enjoy them. Yes, you know, obviously we're


disappointed at some of the results, it's been a mixed bag,


but some opinion polls and commentators predicted we'd be


wiped out - we haven't. As for the Lib Dems,


not the resurgence they hoped for, After a dead heat in Northumberland,


the control of a whole council came The section of England


in which we had elections yesterday was the section of England


that was most likely to vote Leave. When you go to sleep at night,


do you just have election results The answer is if that's still


happening, I don't get to sleep. There we go.


Maybe practice some yoga... Thank you very much


but I have one here. With the introduction


of six regional mayors, Labour's Andy Burnham


became Mr Manchester. But by the time Corbyn came


to celebrate, the new mayor We want you to stay for a second


because I've got some I used to present news,


as you probably know. I used to present BBC


Breakfast in the morning. The SNP had notable successes,


ending 40 years of Labour What did you prefer -


presenting or politics? And it certainly had been a hard day


at the office for some. Ukip's foothold in local government


was all but wiped out, leaving the Conservatives


with their best local So another election results


day draws to a close. But don't worry, we'll be doing it


all again in five weeks' time. For now, though, that's your lot.


Now let's look at some of Thursday's results in a little more detail,


and what they might mean for the wider fortunes


In England, there were elections for 34 councils.


The Conservatives took control of ten of them,


gaining over 300 seats, while Labour sustained


While the Lib Dems lost 28 seats, Ukip came close to extinction,


and can now boast of only one councillor in the whole of England.


In Scotland, the big story was Labour losing


a third of their seats, and control of three councils -


while the Tories more than doubled their number of councillors.


In Wales, both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru made gains,


There was some encouraging news for Jeremy Corbyn's party


after Liverpool and Manchester both elected Labour mayors,


although the Tories narrowly won the West Midlands mayoral race.


We're joined now by who else but elections expert John Curtice.


You saw him in Emma's film, he's now back in Glasgow.


In broad terms, what do these local election results tell us about the


general election result? First we have to remember what Theresa May


wants to achieve in the general election is a landslide, and winning


a landslide means you have to win big in terms of votes. The local


election results certainly suggest Theresa May is well on course to win


the general election, at least with four weeks to go, and of course


people could change their minds. We all agree the Conservatives were


double-digit figures ahead of Labour in these elections. However, whereas


the opinion polls on average at the moment suggest there is a 17 point


Conservative lead, and that definitely would deliver a


landslide, it seems the local election figures, at least in


England, are pointing to something close to an 11 point Conservative


lead. That increase would not necessarily deliver a landslide that


she wants. The truth is, the next four weeks are probably not about


who wins this election unless something dramatic changes, but


there is still a battle as to whether or not Theresa May achieves


her objective of winning a landslide. She has to win big. The


local elections as she is not sure to be there, and therefore she is


going to have to campaign hard. Equally, while Labour did have most


prospect of winning, they still at least at the goal of trying to keep


the conservative majority relatively low, and therefore the Parliamentary


Labour Party are alive and kicking. Interesting that the local election


results don't produce a landslide if replicated on June 8th, but when I


looked at when local elections had taken place a month before the


general election, it was in 1983 and 1987. The Tories did well in both


local elections in these years, but come the general election, they


added five points to their share of the vote. No reason it should happen


again, but if it did, that would take them into landslide territory.


Absolutely right, if they do five points better than the local


elections, they are in landslide territory. We have to remember, in


1983, the Labour Party ran an inept campaign and their support ballet.


In 1987, David Owen and David Steele could not keep to the same lines. --


their support fell away. That underlines how well the opposition


campaign in the next four weeks does potentially matter in terms of


Theresa May's ability to achieve their objective. It is worth


noticing in the opinion polls, two things have happened, first, Ukip


voters, a significant slice going to the Conservatives, which helped to


increase the Conservative leader in the bowels. But in the last week,


the Labour vote seems to have recovered. -- in the polls. So the


party is not that far short of what Ed Miliband got in 2015, so the


Conservative leader is back down to 16 or 17, as we started. So we


should not necessarily presume Labour are going to go backwards in


the way they did in 1983. I want to finish by asking if there are deeper


forces at work? Whether the referendum in this country is


producing a realignment in British politics. The Scottish referendum


has produced a kind of realignment in Scotland. And in a different way,


the Brexit referendum has produced a realignment in England and Wales. Do


you agree? You are quite right. Referendums are potentially


disruptive in Scotland, they helped to ensure the constitutional


question became the central issue, and the 45% who voted yes our been


faithful to the SNP since. Although the SNP put in a relatively


disappointing performance in Scotland on Thursday. Equally, south


of the border, on the leave side, in the past 12 months and particularly


the last few weeks, the Conservatives have corralled the


leave vote, about two thirds of those who voted leave now say they


will vote Conservative. Last summer, the figure was only 50%. On the


remain side, the vote is still fragmented. The reason why Theresa


May is in the strong position she is is not simply because the leave vote


has been realigned, but the remain vote has not. Thank you for joining


us. You can go through polls and wonder who is up and down, but I


wonder whether the Scottish and Brexit referendums have produced


fundamental changes. In Scotland, the real division now is between the


centre-left Nationalist party and the centre-right Unionist party.


That has had the consequence of squeezing out Labour in the


argument, never mind the Greens and the Lib Dems. In London, England,


Wales, the Brexit referendum seems to have produced a realignment of


the right to the Tories' advantage, and some trouble for the Labour blue


vote -- blue-collar vote. It works for the pro Brexit end of the


spectrum but not the other half. In the last century, we had people like


Roy Jenkins dreaming of and writing about the realignment of British


politics as though it could be consciously engineered, and in fact


what made it happen was just the calling of a referendum. It's not


something you can put about as a politician, it flows from below,


when the public begin to think of politics in terms of single issues,


dominant issues, such as leaving the European Union. Rather than a broad


spectrum designed by a political class. I wonder whether now Remain


have it in them to coalesce behind a single party. It doesn't look like


they can do it behind Labour. The Liberal Democrats are frankly too


small in Parliament to constitute that kind of force. The closest


thing to a powerful Remain party is the SNP which by definition has


limited appeal south of the border. It is hard. The realignment. We


don't know if it is permanent or how dramatic it will be, but there is


some kind of realignment going on. At the moment, it seems to be a


realignment that by and large is to the benefit of the Conservatives.


Without a doubt, and that can be directly attributed to the


disappearance of Ukip from the political landscape. I have been


saying since the referendum that I thought Ukip was finished. They


still seem to be staggering on under the illusion... Some people may have


picked up on Nigel Farage this morning saying that Ukip still had a


strong role to play until Brexit actually happens. But I think it's


very, very hard to convince the voters of that, because they feel


that, with the result of the referendum, that was Ukip's job


done. And those votes are not going to delay the party -- to the Labour


Party because of the flaws with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, they are


shifting to the Tories. I agree. The key issue was the referendum. It has


produced a fundamental change that few predicted at the time it was


called. Most fundamental of all, it has brought about a unity in the


Conservative Party. With some exceptions, but they are now off


editing the Evening Standard and other things! This is now a party


united around Brexit. Since 1992, the Tories have been split over


Europe, at times fatally so. The referendum, in ways that David


Cameron did not anticipate, has brought about a united front for


this election. In a way, this is a sequel to the referendum, because


it's about Brexit but we still don't know what form Brexit is going to


take. By calling it early, Theresa May has in effect got another go at


a kind of Brexit referendum without knowing what Brexit is, with a


united Tory party behind her. We shall see if it is a blip or a


long-term trend in British politics. Now let's turn to Labour's big


campaign announcement today, and that was the promise of no


income tax rise for those earning less than ?80,000 -


which of course means those earning more than that could


face an increase. Here's Shadow Chancellor John


McDonell on the BBC earlier. What we are saying today, anyone


earning below ?80,000, we will guarantee you will not have an


increase in income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions.


For those above 80,000, we are asking them to pay a modest bit more


to fund our public services. A modest bit. You will see it will be


a modest increase. Talking about modest increases, so we can have a


society which we believe everyone shares the benefits of.


We're joined now by Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon, in Leeds.


Mr McDonnell stressed that for those earning over 80,000, they would be


paying more but it would be modest. He used the word modest 45 times.


But there is only 1.2 million of them. -- 4-5 times. So that would


not raise much money. This is about the key part of this tax policy for


the many, not the few. We are saying that low earners and middle earners


won't be paying more tax under a Labour government, which is not a


policy the Conservatives have committed to yet. As John McDonnell


also said in his interview earlier, if there is a tax rise on the top 5%


of earners, earning over ?80,000, it would be a modest rise. I am trying


to work out what that would mean in terms of money. If it is too modest,


you don't raise much. What will happen is the Labour Party's


manifesto, published in the next couple of weeks, wilfully set out


and cost it. I can't make an announcement now. -- will fully set


out and cost it. Moving on to the local elections, Mr Corbyn says he


is closing the gap with the Tories. What evidence is there? John Curtis


just said there was an 11% gap in the results, Labour 11% behind. The


polls before that suggested Labour were anything up to 20% behind. Was


it a great day for Labour? Certainly not. Is there a lot to do between


now and June? Sure, but we are relishing every moment of that.


Comparing equivalent elections in 2013, the Tories increased their


share of the vote by 13%. You lost 2%. That's a net of 15%. In what way


is that closing the gap? We have gone down to 11 points behind. Am I


satisfied? Certainly not. Is Labour satisfied? Certainly not. A week is


a long time in politics, 4-5 weeks is even longer. The local elections


are over, the general election campaign is starting, and we want to


put out there the policies that will improve the lives of low and middle


income earners. And also many people looking to be well off as well. You


lost 133 seats in Scotland. Are you closing the gap in Scotland? The


journey back for Labour in Scotland, I always thought, wouldn't be an


easy one. Since the council election results and Scotland that we are


comparing this to, there has been an independence referendum and the


terrible results for Labour in the 2015 general election. So it is a


challenge, but one hundreds of thousands of Labour members are


determined to meet. That is why we're talking about bread and butter


policies to make people's lives better. These local elections took


place midtown. Normally mid-term was the worst time for a government. --


took place midterm. And the best for an opposition. That is a feature of


British politics. So why did you lose 382 councillors in a midterm


election? As Andy Burnham said when he gave his acceptance speech after


his terrific first ballot result win in Manchester, it was an evening of


mixed results for Labour. Generally bad, wasn't it? Why did you lose all


of these councillors midterm? It is not a welcome result for Labour, I


am not going to be deluded. But what I and the Labour Party are focused


on is the next four weeks. And how we are going to put across policies


like free school meals for primary school children, ?10 an hour minimum


wage, the pledge not to increase tax for low and middle earners, 95% of


earners in this country. And saving the NHS from privatisation and


funding it properly. These are just some of the policies, including by


the way a boost in carers' allowance, that will make the lives


of people in Britain better off. Labour are for the many, not for the


few. But people like from political parties aspiring to government is to


be united and to be singing from the same song sheet among the leaders.


You mentioned Andy Burnham. Why did he not join Mr Corbyn when Jeremy


Corbyn went to the rally in Manchester on Friday to celebrate


his victory? First of all, Andy Burnham did a radio interview


straight after his great victory in which he said Jeremy Corbyn helped


him to win votes in that election. Why didn't he turn up? As to the


reason Andy Burnham wasn't there at the meeting Jeremy was doing in


Manchester, it was because, I understand, Andy was booked into


celebrate his victory with his family that night. I don't begrudge


him that and hopefully you don't. The leader has made the effort to


travel to Manchester to celebrate one of the few victories you enjoyed


on Thursday, surely you would join the leader and celebrate together?


Well, I don't regard, and I am sure you don't, Andy Burnham a nice time


with his family... -- I don't begrudge. He made it clear Jeremy


Corbyn assisted him. I can see you are not convinced yourself. I am


convinced. The outgoing Labour leader in Derbyshire lost his seat


on Thursday, you lost Derbyshire, which was a surprise in itself... He


said that genuine party supporters said they were not voting Labour


while you have Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Are you hearing that on the


doorstep too? I have been knocking on hundreds of doors this week in my


constituency and elsewhere. And of course, you never get every single


voter thinking the leader of any political party is the greatest


thing since sliced bread. But it's only on a minority of doorsteps that


people are criticising the Labour leader. Most people aren't even


talking about these questions. Most people are talking about Jeremy


Corbyn's policies, free primary school meals, ?10 an hour minimum


wage. Also policies such as paternity pay, maternity pay and


sickness pay for the self-employed, that have been hard-pressed under


this government. So I don't recognise that pitch of despondency,


but I understand that in different areas, in local elections,


perspectives are different. That was Derbyshire. The outgoing Labour


leader of Nottinghamshire County Council said there was concern on


the doorstep about whether Jeremy Corbyn was the right person to lead


the Labour Party, and even Rotherham, loyal to Mr Corbyn, won


the mail contest in Liverpool, he said that the Labour leader was more


might on the doorstep. -- the mayor contest. Does that explain some of


the performance on Thursday? I am confident that in the next four


weeks, when we get into coverage on television, that people will see


further the kind of open leadership Jeremy provides. In contrast to


Theresa May's refusal to meet ordinary people. She came to my


constituency and I don't think that a single person who lives here. And


also she is ducking the chance to debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. She


should do it and let the people decide. I don't know why she won't.


Finally, the Labour mantra is that you are the party of the ordinary


people, why is it the case that among what advertisers call C2s, D


and E', how can you on the pulse of that social group, how can you do


that? Our policy is to assist, protect and improve the living


standards of people in those groups and our policy is to protect the


living standards of the majority... They do not seem to be convinced? We


have four weeks to convince them and I believe that we will. Thank you


for coming onto the programme. But the wooden spoon from Thursday's


elections undoubtedly went to Ukip. Four years ago the party


won its best ever local government performance,


but this time its support just Ukip's share of the vote


plunging by as much as 18 points, most obviously


benefiting the Conservatives. So is it all over for


the self-styled people's army? Well we're joined now


by the party's leader in the Welsh Assembly,


Neil Hamilton, he's in Cardiff. Neil Hamilton, welcome. Ukip


finished local elections gaining the same number of councillors as the


Rubbish Party, one. That sums up your prospects, doesn't


it? Rubbish? We have been around a long time and seemed that I'd go


out, go in again, we will keep calm and carry on. We are in a phoney


war, negotiations on Brexit have not started but what we know from


Theresa May is that in seven years, as Home Secretary and Prime


Minister, she has completely failed to control immigration which was one


of the great driving forces behind the Brexit result. I'm not really


looking for any great success in immigration from the Tories, and a


lot of people who have previously voted for Ukip will be back in our


part of the field again. They don't seem to care about that at the


moment, your party lost 147 council seats. You gain one. It is time to


shut up shop, isn't it? You are right, the voters are not focusing


on other domestic issues at the moment. They have made up their


minds going into these negotiations in Brussels, Theresa May, as Prime


Minister, needs as much support as she can get. I think they are wrong


in this respect, it would be better to have a cohort of Ukip MPs to back


her up. She was greatly helped by the intervention of Mr Juncker last


week as well, the stupidity in how the European Commission has tried to


bully the British government, in those circumstances the British


people will react in one way going the opposite way to what the


Brussels establishment one. She has been fortunate as an acute tactician


in having the election now. I struggle to see the way back for


your party. You aren't a threat to the Tories in the south. Ukip voters


are flocking to the Tories in the south. You don't threaten Labour in


the north. It is the Tories who threaten Labour now in the north.


There is no room to progress, is there? The reality will be is that


once we are back on the domestic agenda again, and the Brexit


negotiations are concluded, we will know what the outcome is. And the


focus will be on bread and butter issues. We have all sorts of


policies in our programme which other parties cannot match us on.


The talk is putting up taxes to help the health service, we would scrap


the foreign aid budget and put another ?8 billion in the health


service, no other party says that. These policies would be popular with


the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the


the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the meltdown of


what happened, no matter who is leader? These are cosmic forces


beyond the control of any individual at the moment, it is certainly not


Paul Nuttall's .com he's been in the job for six months and in half that


time he was fighting a by-election -- certainly not Paul Nuttall's


fault. We have two become more professional than we have been


recently. It has not been a brilliant year for Ukip one way or


another, as you know, but there are prospects, in future, that are very


rosy. I do not believe that the Tories will deliver on other


promises that they are now making. The Welsh assembly elections are not


until 2021, you are a member of that, but at that point you will not


have any MEPs, because we will be out on the timetable. With this


current showing he will have no end', you could be Ukip's most


senior elected representative. That would be a turnout for the books! --


no elected MPs. The Tories are not promoting the policies that I


believe them. You will see that in the Ukip manifesto when it is


shortly publish... Leaders talk mainly about the male genital


mutilation and is -- female and burqas. No, when the manifesto


launched, we have a lot of policies, I spoke moments ago about it, but


also on foreign aid. Scrapping green taxes, to cut people's electricity


bills by ?300 per year on average. There are a lot of popular policies


that we have. We will hear more from that in the weeks to come.


Paul Nuttall said "If the price of written leaving the year is a Tory


advance after taking up this patriarch course, it is a price that


Ukip is prepared to pay". That sounds like a surrender statement?


It is a statement of fact, the main agenda is to get out of the EU and


have full Brexit. That is why Ukip came into existence 20 years ago.


When it is achieved, we go back to the normal political battle lines.


Niall Hamilton in Cardiff, thank you very much for joining us.


It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes - we'll be talking about the French


Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.


With just under five weeks to polling day,


will the election be all about Brexit


or will other issues start to dominate the agenda?


And what are the main concerns of our smaller parties?


We'll hear from the Green Party and People Before Profit


Plus, in another election, the French head to the polls


in the second and decisive round in the Presidential election.


What impact will the new President have on the rest of Europe?


And with their thoughts on that and more, my guests of the day


and public affairs consultant Anna Mercer.


At the last Westminster election, issues like abortion,


austerity and same sex marriage dominated a lot of the campaign.


Some argued that sense of 'normality' helped


the Green Party and People Before Profit perform well.


But with Brexit dominating the campaign and stalemate


at Stormont, can they repeat the success of two years ago?


Joining me now are the Green Party's Georgina Milne


and Gerry Carroll from People Before Profit -


and, by the way, we did invite the TUV


to take part in today's discussion,


George, the first of all, you campaign did not get off to the best


of starts, arguably, as your leader seemed to tie himself in knots at


the prospect of a packed with Andy Brexit parties. Have you managed to


put that behind you? I would disagree that the dog of packed boys


in anyway negative. I think discussing the possibility of April


remain alliance was the just and democratic thing to do. Whenever


that came back to the Green party Executive, we decided a pact would


not be right for us but I think we did the right thing in considering


it and we just think it is unfortunate that some parties did


try to sectarian eyes the issue. Any chance of a pact came to a halt when


the SDLP decided to select its sitting LP as its candidate in south


Belfast. Did you really think that he would step aside for Claire


Bailey when he had polled four times her vote to Mike years ago? That is


what Steve Matthew suggested. I think regarding the pact in south


Belfast, one of the most difficult issues for the Green Party, with a


long and unbroken record of championing LGBT and women's rights,


would be asking Green supporters to get behind a candidate who did not


see those issues are the same way the Green Party would. Alistair


MacDonald accused the Green Party of scratching around looking for


relevance at the time of all of the discussion about pact in south


Belfast. Did that hurt? I do not think it hurt. It was the right


thing to do to consider it. The Green Party have long been champions


of grassroots democracy and we did the right thing in considering the


pack. However, we did come to the conclusion it would not work for us


and this time around, we are very pleased to be fielding seven


candidates in the election. So what are the main issues for


those seven candidates? Undoubtedly Brexit is a key, critical priority


issue. Make no mistake, Tory austerity and equality will be key


issues on the agenda and key issues that the Green Party will be


campaigning on. A very powerful, positive and strong message. The


issues. Brexit, equality and social justice issues will be on


everybody's lips. What about those moral issues that


you can bid for strong Lyon on previous elections, they followed by


the wayside? Become an absolutely not, that dive into quality, which


the Green Party have long been champions of. We are proud to listen


to women, stand up for 's rights, LGBT rates, marriage equality. We


were the first party to bring marriage equality to the Assembly


and will not let that poll by the wayside. The Greens are running


seven candidates. So far, People Before Profit have announced two. Is


that it is far as you're concerned? We are on two at the minute and we


are meeting in the next few days to confirm where we are standing and


the full list of candidates will be decided. It is worth seeing, we have


had the elections in a year. We are a small party without corporate


donations, we do not receive donations from rich Irish-American


capitalists and the elections in a year is tough for a party with


limited resources. We will be throwing herself into this election


and providing an alternative, but there may be an election, and


Assembly election, in October as well and that puts pressure on small


parties who do not have the resources of some other big parties


but we are up for standing in this election. Georgina has told us what


the key issues of the Green Party. What are the big issues for People


Before Profit? What will you be discussing with potential voters on


the doorsteps? A lot of things. Talking about Brexit, they should


not be a hard border into limited and Theresa May should not be


allowed to use Brexit as a way to advance her agenda, to further boost


on taxes for corporations, to attack workers' rights and attack other


things. Also this is about austerity, as Georgina said. How


austerity has devastated communities and public services. We will be


providing an alternative voice in the selection that is going to stand


up for voters, communities and public services. I said quite


clearly, they are cutting taxes for corporations and are trying to kill


off that there is no money for public services. It is a question


about priorities and what is more important, cutting taxes for the


rich and corporations are putting money into health and education.


Also the issue of mental health crisis in our society. We will be


providing a strong message on this in our election. Their prime Minster


fundamentally citizens about Brexit. It is likely to come up the


doorsteps, as far as People Before Profit are concerned, if for no


other reason than because you prepared to flip-flop dramatically.


First, you campaigned for Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK to


leave the EU and now plan to fight them on an anti-Tory Brexit


platform. What precisely is People Before Profit's message on Brexit?


Are you pro-Brexit or Andy Brexit? We are against a Tory Brexit.


Theresa May is using it to trying to advance the interests of the British


elite, the rich and the wealthy in society. What does that actually


mean? Never mind Tory Brexit, what is your position on Brexit? You said


it was a good idea and campaigned for it, along with elements on the


Tory party. It is now happening and you do not like the she bothered? We


are for leaving the EU and had a unique position which was arguing


that the EU has created austerity for people in Ireland, people in


Greece. That was our critique and our opposition to the EU. Regardless


of whether people go to remain relief in the EU, the question is


are people going to stand up against the hard border, are against Theresa


May's attacks and her plans to implement further tax cuts for


corporation? We are standing against that and it is worth seeing that


David Cameron would have pursued that, a stronger case for that, if


he had added weight and got to remain on board. In this election,


we are putting forward an anti-Tory Brexit argument and arguing against


what the Tories are pushing. Do you still think Brexit is a good idea? I


think leaving the European Union was the correct decision but what has to


happen now is people should be putting forward a strong argument


against a Tory Brexit. That is what the Tories are trying to do. Theresa


May is trying to shake Brexit in the interests of the capitalists and


ruling elite. Your gritters also, always said that if you put or


delete it could be had Brexit, but despite those warnings, he said it


was a good idea and people voted for it. You said the vote should be


respected and you now seem to be going back on that? We are very


clear. We were always against the Tory Brexit. We were clear in the


referendum campaign that we were against the Tory Brexit and what the


Tory party were pursuing. We were clear enough and against what they


are trying to do now. Stand up against a hard border, stand up


against the austerity agenda and we can still do that whilst critiquing


the EU policies and how the EU has actually implemented the policies on


the rich and only all across Europe and devastated austerity for people


in Ireland and Greece. We want to see a different kind of Europe as


that is not going to come from the EU bureaucrats or the jury party.


Georgina, you're also a candidate. -- the Tory party. Is the issue of


Brexit coming up? Are people concerned from either side of the


fence, depending how they voted and copy the things unfolding, I've


concerned that what might lie ahead in the next couple of years?


Absolutely. When David Cameron and the Tory Government machine brought


us to the polls last year for this referendum, nobody knew what we were


voting for. For that reason, the Green Party are campaigning for a


referendum on the terms of the final Brexit deal. That will essentially


mean that all people can have their say on what their vision of Brexit


is, as opposed to blindly following Theresa May and the Tory vision of a


hard Brexit said she is hell-bent on. I wonder how much common ground


there is between your party and People Before Profit. He says he


does not want a Theresa May Stell Brexit. You do not want a Theresa


May style Brexit either. Though Jerry Carroll says he still thinks


we should leave the EU, you think, despite not wanting a hard Brexit,


we need to find some alternative way. It is very confusing for


people, let's be honest. Absolutely. The Green Party campaigned to remain


and we would very much like to see what, -- like to see, whatever


happens, that people get their final say on that deal. A hard border


would be disastrous for the communities that live around that


and for the agricultural industry. I want a quick word about Stormont,


because this is a Westminster general election. Jerry, you were


returned as an MLA at the last Assembly election a few short weeks


ago, it has to be said. We may have another before too long, perhaps in


the autumn. Is it very, very hard for the small parties to find


relevance in a general election, when Stormont is in stalemate?


Obviously it is difficult circumstances but in terms of the


Westminster election, we can provide an alternative voice. We can be a


voice for the voiceless and can represent the millions and not the


millionaires in this election. By raising these issues, but not


seriously by winning there? It is possible. People did not predict the


EU referendum... It is possible but not probable. Polls cannot be


everything. What people are looking for is an alternative voice. In this


election, I would be the only viable candidate.


If you want your seat, would you take it? I would. How relevant is


the politics of the Green Party during a general election, where


you're running seven candidates, it is not impossible but unlikely that


you will win a Westminster seat. Let's be clear. We are running seven


candidates, four of whom are women. Over 50% of our poster presenters


will be women and we are open other parties will take early. The Green


Party have never been in a better position regarding money, resources,


people to contest a general election. Our vote share has


increased the last number of elections and we are optimistic and


hopeful. We need to leave it there. Thank you both for coming in


joiners. -- coming into joiners. Let's hear from our guests


of the day, Professor Rick Wilford


and Anna Mercer. Both parties confident


of continued growth, It is a difficult time. They will


have some impact, obviously. If only in shipping the agenda of the


narrative, if you like, of the election campaign. There is quite a


lot of common ground between the Green Party and People Before Profit


on a number of issues, but electorally, I think they are going


to be squeezed, not least because the unionist electorate has been


absolutely galvanised for this election by the outcome of the


Assembly election back in March. I suspect that this election is going


to be, if anything, even more pro-sectarian than the person that


will have a detrimental effect, I suspect, literally on the smaller


parties. The last general election, the big five to just under 90% of


the vote. The remainder was spread across the smaller, minor parties


and a range of independence. They are only going to have a marginal


impact in terms of, certainly I do not see them winning any seeds,


perhaps with the exception And Alliance. With all of the issues


confronting Northern Ireland, I think they have a key role to play.


What do you think this election is likely to be about from a voter 's


perspective? I think Brexit obviously is the context we are


going into this election under. Northern Ireland did vote to remain,


however the DUP in particular and the Ulster Unionist Party afterwords


have taken a pretty strong parolees approach. I think we cannot sort of


disassociates that from the last Assembly election. -- a pretty


strong lead approach. It will be very much in their minds that they


came within one seat of Sinn Fein. They will be wanting to consolidate


their position and thinking about how they want to do this without


increasing the Nationalist vote as per the last election. We may have


to wait and see whether there will be a unionist Pact, because the


parties have got until 4pm Thursday afternoon to actually, when


nominations close, so the DUP and UUP have only got four days to come


up with a pact, if there is to be one. And of course, it is


distinguished possible that we will see some tactical voting in some of


those constituencies, which could be very much to the detriment of the


smaller parties. If people decide that this is about Brexit, for or


against, they will perhaps focus on the two main candidates on either


side of the fence. Yes, and it is first past the post. The Assembly


elections you voted on the ticket, to get one drowsiness, so that


probably will mean people will go towards the safer bet. The smaller


parties will be looking to use this opportunity to prove themselves and


set out their stall. But ultimately, first past the post favours the


larger parties. That is what makes a very interesting. Thanks very much.


We will talk to you both later. and take a look at the week


gone past in 60 seconds, Sinn Fein's Michelle O'Neill


defended her attendance at a commemoration for eight IRA men shot


dead by the SAS. I see no contradiction whatsoever in


commemorating a republican dead whilst reaching out to our Unionist


neighbours. I do not think yesterday did anything to reach out to


unionism. Belfast City Council 's back a


position to create an Irish language officer, and one Alliance member


welcomed the move in Irish. As a member of the Presbyterian


Church in Ireland, I am delighted to support a new language policy. The


EU said it sold over Brexit negotiations and Northern Ireland


made the headlines. I will pay great attention to the situation in


Ireland, and I will go to Ireland next week.


And the demand for special EU status continued. Northern Ireland is one


part of the UK that can rejoin the EU in future, but without an Article


49 negotiation. Now, French voters go to the polls


to elect a new President today. So will they go for


a pro-European liberal who's still something


of an unknown entity, or a far-right challenger


to the establishment, who has vowed to take


on globalisation and France's relationship


with the EU? Whoever wins - Emmanuel Macron


or Marine Le Pen - what impact will it have


on the rest of Europe? who's Professor of European Politics


at Queen's University. David, hello. Thank you for joining


us. The last two weeks of the campaign have been quite brutal. The


country is very divided. How difficult will it be for whoever


wins to unite the French people? I think it is going to be very


difficult for them to unite the French people. Because also


following the presidential elections we will have a parliamentary


election as well so you will see competition there as well. I think


there is obviously an expectation that Macron will probably win, given


that the opinion polls, and there is a sense that he will get some degree


of continuity in France's European policy with that. But obviously, if


Marine Le Pen wins, then everything is up for question. I think the


other thing to remember is that Marine Le Pen getting just over 20%


of the vote, that are left it in just over 20% of the vote, so come


the next presidential election, you probably still got that split within


the French public over what their preferences are for the future of


France. A lot of commentators have been saying that turnout could have


a very big impact on the final result, but if Marine Le Pen were to


be successful and overturn the huge lead in the polls that Emmanuelle


Macron has, just how remarkable would that be in your view? I think


it would be, well, it creates a enormous uncertainty as to what the


French position is going to be. She would still need to get an amazing


result in the parliamentary elections to secure a majority


support within the parliament, and there is the view that without that


Parliamentary support, she is going to be hamstrung. But I think she is


still necessarily going to be very vocal in her opposition to the euro


and there is going to be a debate here as to whether French should


stay in the EU. It's created an enormous degree of uncertainty, and


I think it is fair to say that the last majority of the other EU member


states are desperately praying for a Emmanuel Macron victory. If that is


what happened, what you think the impact will be over the course of


discussions over the next two years as far as is concerned? Is Macron


wins, we will likely see the unity of the EU 27 consolidated. He will


be wanting to ensure that the EU comes out of this exceedingly well,


that it remains and you can actually continue the process of European


integration and he is keen to revive it. It is very unclear what will


actually happen if Marine Le Pen wins. I think she is going to be


very sympathetic to the British desire to leave and will probably


not stand in the way of it at all. Which is a very strange conundrum,


is it not, from Downing Street's perspective? For that reason, they


might want Marine Le Pen to win, but probably for every other reason


would not want her to win. Let's assume that Macron is successful.


Does that been that it is going to be a much tougher negotiation, is


what you are saying, as far as Theresa May is concerned? She may


get a lot less of what she wants? It is going to be a tough negotiation


either way. The one thing we have noticed over the last nine months is


the unity of the 27. That has been quite remarkable for a lot of


people. And that will not change if Macron is in there? No, I think that


will become stronger. We got a German election coming up in the


autumn as well but both of the leading candidates they are are


equally as pro-EU as Macron. We had this final twist on Friday evening,


when Mr Macron political movement ended up being the victim of a


massive hack with documents released online. We have not, for reasons to


do with how the media has dealt with this in France, we have not seen the


details. They have not been widely reported. Do you think that is


unlikely to have a huge impact on the final outcome, or could that


produce the real surprise? It could go both ways. One, there are these


allegations out there which will reinforce Marine Le Pen's vote for


the people who but equally we are deeply suspicious of the origins, or


alleged origins of a lot of these leaks and suggest there is an


interference with it, and that would have been designed to help Marine Le


Pen. Figures have pointed in Russia's direction. It had been


predicted that this might happen -- this happen. As far as Europe is


concerned, we should not underplay the significance of this report for


the European project over the next two years and beyond? It is a very


significant day today. two years and beyond? It is a very


significant. You are faced with a high level of disruption if Marine


Le Pen wins or a far greater continuity in the French position.


We also need to note that Macron is Europhile and he has got ideas about


pushing for further integration further down the line, and so I


could actually see greater cooperation between the EU,


particularly around the Eurozone, which on the one hand could


consolidated but equally good open up some of the divisions within the


EU longer term. It is a fascinating situation. We should get a better


picture of that final outcome this evening, when polls close.


Rick Wilford and Anna Mercer are still with me.


Just a very quick word about that. What bearing to the two have --


tonight might have on the Northern Ireland in particular? Immense. I


think Ukip will be wanting Marine Le Pen to win and I think I agree with


David in the sense that for them, that would be an easier proposition


in relation to Brexit. Macron is a reconstructed Europhile and I think


he has already said, I think, that he would be looking for really tough


negotiation with the UK. Mrs may paradoxically perhaps would rather


not have a liberal minded person in the early is a palace! For us, well,


goodness knows. We do not know where we are, the UK does not know where


we are, there are so many options and possibilities. What Macron will


do will push hard for pretty tough negotiation with the UK and that


could have a detrimental effect on us. It is going to be very


interesting because we have got the EU's chief negotiator addressing the


doll later this week. We have also got Tony Blair coming over to be a


guest speaker at a conference. The European focus is going to be very


close to our own door. It'll be interesting to see what some of


these key figures have to say. Absolutely. To me, it has been the


contrast in the approach of the UK Government and Irish Government. We


have seen a much more partnership approach from the Irish government,


the nod to the EU diplomacy style. And engaging with other politicians


across Europe. The British government have been very forthright


and very assertive in making a set of demands, which is much closer to


the US model of diplomacy. I think if they want to learn anything from


Northern Ireland, they need to build partnerships. What underpins


partnership is trust and wherever that is not there, things fall apart


and we do not need to look too far to see an example of that. They have


got off on the wrong footing and need to put their heads together


again. Very interesting situation unfolding before our eyes. Thank you


again. Very interesting situation housing associations and investment,


but unfolding before our eyes. Thank you


both unfolding before our eyes. Thank you


but we unfolding before our eyes. Thank you


both very unfolding before our eyes. Thank you


but we have unfolding before our eyes. Thank you


both very much indeed. Four weeks to go until polling day


on the 8th of June, what will the party strategies be for the


remaining four weeks? Let's begin with the Conservatives. Do they just


try to continue to play it safe for four weeks? Yes, with this important


qualification. Theresa May Corp this election to get her own personal


mandate partly, partly because she thought she would win big but to get


her own personal mandate. Therefore, she needs to define it. In her own


interests and to do with accountability to the country. So


clearly, they will not take risks when they are so far ahead in the


polls. What they do say in the manifesto matters in


terms of the space that she has in the coming years to define her


leadership against David Cameron 's. She is a free figure, partly on the


basis of what she says as to how big she wins. They cannot just play it


safe and repeat their mantra of strong and stable leadership, if she


is going to claim her own mandate, they need the top policy? Yes, and


what is unusual about this is that the manifesto matters far more


because of what they need to do with it afterwards, than in terms of


whether it is going to win anybody over now. Clearly, the strategy is


yes, we do have two layout out a few things, there are interesting


debates as to whether, for example, they will still commit to this


ambition of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands, we do not


know the answer yet. It is a question on whether she is setting


herself up for difficulties later on. It will be a short manifesto, I


would venture to guess? It is in her interests to be as noncommittal as


possible, that argues for a short manifesto but what does strike me


about the Conservative campaign, aside from the ambiguity on policy,


is how personal it is. I think Theresa May, in her most recent


speech, referred to "My local candidates", rather than


Parliamentary candidates, very much framing it as a presidential


candidate in France or the USA. Not a rational on her part. Everything I


hear from the MPs on the ground and the focus groups being done by the


parties, is that a big chunk of the population personally identify with


her. If you can wrap up Middle England into a physical object and


embody it in a person, it would be her. Although Jeremy Corbyn's


unpopularity accounts for a big slice of her popularity, she has


done a good job of bonding with the public. We never saw that coming!


But you may well be right. That is happening now. Labour say it wants


the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell to play a more prominent role in the


Labour campaign, he was on The Andrew Marr Show this morning and he


was asked if he was a Marxist, he denied that he was. It surprised me


as I had seen tape from before saying that he was proud of it.


Let's look now and then. Are you a Marxist? I believe that there is a


lot to learn... Yes or no? I believe that there is a lot to learn from


reading capital, that is recommended not only by me but measuring


economists as well. I also believe that in the long tradition of the


Labour Party... We need to demand systemic change. I am a Marxist.


This is a classic crisis of the economy. A capitalist crisis. I've


been waiting for this for a generation! That was from about four


years ago. No, I'm not a Marxist, yes, I am a Marxist... I've been


waiting for the Marxist revolution my whole life... Does this kind of


thing matter? Yes, but in fairness, I think he is a really good


interviewee. The Shadow Cabinet have untested figures in a national


campaign. None have ever been exposed at any level to a national


media campaign that they are about to experience. He is the best


interviewee. In fairness to him, when he gave that clip four years


ago, I bet he never dream that he would be in a senior front bench


position. But the background is clear. They are of the left, and I


think they would all have described it. Jeremy Corbyn would have done,


he is close to being like Tony Benn. There are about four Labour campaign


is being fought in this election. Their campaign, the old Shadow


Cabinet, campaigning in constituencies, but not identifying


with that campaign. There is the former Labour leader Tony Blair. Is


it damaging? I think so, if they could be damaged any further, I


could see all of the Labour MPs with their heads in their hands. What I


am hearing from Labour MPs is that there is not one of them who do not


feel that they have a horrendous battle on their hands. These will be


very individual local campaigns, where local MPs are winning despite


the party leadership and not because of it. Already, talk is turning to


what happens next. Is there anyway that Jeremy Corbyn, giving a


horrendous set of general election results as many anticipate, may stay


on all the same? It is not clear that even if the polls are right,


that Mr Corbyn will go? John McDonnell implied it might not be


the case but previously, he said it would be. What do you make of


reports that the Labour strategy is not, I cannot quite believe I am


saying this, not to win seats but maximise a share of the vote. If


they do better than Ed Miliband with 30.5% of the vote, they believe they


live to fight another day? Yes, it reminded me of Tony Benn's speech


after the 1983 election where they said as bad as the Parliamentary


defeat was there were 8 million votes for socialism. A big section


of public opinion voted for that manifesto. I wonder whether that is


Corbyn's supporters best chance of holding onto power. Whether they can


say that those votes are a platform on which we can build. That said,


even moderate Labour MPs and desperate for a quick leadership


contest. I hear a lot of them say that they would like to leave it for


one year. Maybe have Tom Watson as an acting Labour leader. He would


still have a mandate. Give the top party a chance to regroup and get


rid of some of its problems and decide where it stands on policy.


Most importantly, for potential candidates to show what they are


made of, rather than lurching straight into an Yvette Cooper


Coronation. 30 seconds on the Liberal Democrats, their strategy


was to mop up the Remain vote. Uncertain about the Brexit party in


demise. Ukip. The remain as have a dilemma, the little Democrats are


not a strong enough vessel with 89 MPs to risk all ongoing for them --


the Liberal Democrats. Labour do not know where they stand on Brexit.


There is not a robust alternative vessel for what is now a pro-Brexit


Conservative Party. At the moment. Four weeks to go, but not for


France... France has been voting since early


this morning, and we should get a first estimate of who will be


the country's next President Just to warn you there are some


flashing images coming up. The choice in France


is between a centre-left liberal reformer Emmanuel Macron


and a right-wing nationalist Marine Le Pen - both have been


casting their votes this morning. The two candidates topped


a field of 11 presidential hopefuls in the first


round of elections last month. The campaign has been marked


by its unpredictability, and in a final twist on Friday


evening, just before campaigning officially ended,


Mr Macron's En Marche! group said it had been the victim


of a "massive" hack, with a trove of documents


released online. The Macron team said real documents


were mixed up with fake ones, and electoral authorities warned


media and the public that spreading details of the leaks would breach


strict election rules. I'm joined now from


Paris by the journalist As I left Paris recently, everybody


told me that there was the consensus that Mr Macron would win, and win


pretty comfortable you. Is there any reason to doubt that? -- pretty


comfortably. I don't think so, there have been so many people left and


right, former candidates who have decided that it was more important


to vote for Macron, even if it was agreed with him, then run the risk


of having Marine Le Pen as president. I think the spread is now


20 points, 60% to Macron, 40% to Le Pen. So outside of the margin of


error that it would take something huge for this to be observed. If the


polls are right and Mr Macron wins, he has to put together a government,


and in May there is a Coronation, then he faces parliamentary


elections in June and could face a fractured parliament where he does


not have a clear majority for his reforms. He could then faced


difficulties in getting his programme through? I think that


right now, with how things are looking, considering you have one


half of the Republican party, the Conservative Party, they are making


clear sides, not only that they want to support Macron but are supporting


him actively. It means looking at the equivalent of the German party,


the great coalition. Depending on how many seats established parties


keep in the house committee may very well have a Republican Prime


Minister, rather than having an adversarial MP, he may have someone


who is relatively unknown outside of France, and a young woman. Contended


that lost the Parez mayorship three years ago. She is a scientist and


has been secretary of state. She would be an interesting coalition


Prime Minister. Finally, Marine Le Pen, if she goes down to defeat a


night, does she have the stomach and ambition, and the energy, to try it


all again in 2022? She has all of that. The question is, would they


let her? How badly would she lose? Her niece, now 27, a hard-working


and steady person, unlike Marine Le Pen, who flunked her do paid --


debate, her niece may decide that 2022 is her turn. Yet another Le


Pen! All right, we will see. Just five years to wait, but only a few


hours until the results of the election tonight.


And we will get the exit polls here on the BBC. Given the exit polls


will give as a pretty fair indication of what the result is


going to be tonight. That will be on BBC news. That's all for today.


The Daily Politics will cover every turn of this election campaign,


And we're back here on BBC One at our usual time Next Sunday.


Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


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