07/07/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

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And coming up here: A damning report followed by a declaration of no


confidence. What does the future hold for the Historical Enquiries


Team? We hear from Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly and Tom Elliott from the


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2167 seconds


in Northern Ireland. A damning report followed by a


declaration of no confidence from the Policing Board. What does the


future hold for the Historical Enquires Team? We'll be asking two


senior MLAs if the HET will survive the current crisis.


Also today, it's been hailed as a huge opportunity to showcase


Northern Ireland. So can the World Police and Fires Games live up to


the hype? We'll hear from chair of the games, Judith Gillespie.


To discuss all of that and more, my guests today are the journalist,


Steven McCaffery, and the financial commentator Paul Gosling.


Tomorrow the head of the Historical Enquiries, Dave Cox, is due to meet


the Chief Constable for the first time since the Policing Board


declared it had no confidence in the team's leadership. It follows a


damning report, which strongly criticised the HET for dealing with


killings by soldiers with 'less rigour' than those with no state


involvement. So, with the body under increasing pressure, does the crisis


re-open the debate about how best to deal with the past? I'm joined now


by Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly and Tom Elliott from the Ulster Unionists.


The head of the HET, Dave Cox, is due to meet the Chief Constable


tomorrow. What needs to happen at that meeting? I think it is


important that there is no confidence in the leadership of the


HET and Dave Cox clearly is in the leadership of that. We are talking


about a different approach to state cases and non-state cases as a


matter of written down policy and guidelines, and somebody has to take


responsibility for that. When the person who led the inquiry was


direct -- directly asked by the Policing Board he was responsible,


he said it was the Chief Constable. The Chief Constable has said that


the wrongful policy was a matter of the HET. What is very, very clear is


that a policy decision was made and it was illegal, which is the other


important thing to say. It was actually unlawful to do this. It was


unlawful and untenable, so someone has to tell us what is going to


happen to whoever was responsible. Would you like to see Dave Cox


resigning? If he is the leader and you have no confidence, does he have


to go? My position is very clear. There is no way that I can see Dave


Cox staying. Does it stop at bats or does it have ramifications for the


Chief Constable as well. -- does it stop at that or does it have


ramifications for the Chief Constable as well? We are setting up


with the Policing Board in charge 18 to implement the 20 recommendations


-- with the Policing Board 18 two implement the 20 recommendations


that have been made. League-macro you cannot blame everything on the


establishment. -- you cannot blame everything on the establishment.


did not believe they were carrying out a proper review process of many


of the murders. I think we are getting into a system that appears


to be blaming the state for everything. Let's not forget that


ever 90% of the murders in Northern Ireland were by terrorists, not by


the state. That does not what this investigation was about. That is not


what we are discussing. This investigation and this particular


room port is very narrow in its focus. Look at the 31 cases, a vast


majority of them were cases that the state was involved in. The state was


involved in less than 10% of the overall murders in Northern Ireland.


There are people from the community that I represent to our saying that


they are only seeing one side of the report and they want people to get


justice for all of the murders that were caused by terrorists. That


might be the case and that might be an issue that is discussed at


another time. The point is, we are discussing this particular review of


the work of the HET which was tasked with looking after a specific area,


and it has come up with these damning conclusions. Are you not


concerned that the HET -- HET has been found to be operating in a way


that is untenable and unlawful? concerned, just as I was concerned


for years ago about them not approaching those who could have


been of help and assistance in approaching these investigations.


Any number of Sinn Fein, even Sinn Fein collectively, there were any


number of people who could've helped with these cases, and they have not


once. What needs to happen to resolve this issue is to go forward?


If you look at the other inquiries going on, including the police and


coroner inquests, I do not believe the system we have in place can


actually deal with the past. I believe that we have got to a stage


now where there is no confidence in dealing with the past overall


because people from the Unionists agenda -- Unionist party see that


there is an agenda and that they are not getting fairness and equality.


If the vast majority of the people in the country were murdered by


terrorists... Whether you like it or not, it is clearly a view which is


held by a lot of people, and it is part of the difficulty that we all


face as a society. He is giving the impression that this is not fair.


You have to remember what this report is about. It is about the


unfairness of those who were not in the state cases. It is quite the


flip side of what Tom saying. -- Tom is saying. Sinn Fein for a long time


have said that the best way to deal with the past is to go through a


process, and there are many examples of these, and they have been


adapted. It is Unionists who are refusing to go anywhere near a truth


process. I am very much up for it. That is where we need to go. It is


important to say this, Professor Patricia Lundy, as far back as that


point of the difficulties, she was rubbish, her reputation was ruined.


Her reputation is intact. All I am saying is that it was quite unfair


that but the HET in answer to the report and members of the PSNI


ruined her and she has been being vacated and it needs to be said. --


vindicated. You have said that the recommendations need to be put back


on the table again and that we look at the Legacy Commission led by an


end -- international figure to take over the work of the police


ombudsman and the HET. Is that one of the options? It may be. He talks


about trying to get a truth commission. How are you going to get


a truth commission trying to operate properly when you have some people


think they have no issues of terrorism in the community and they


do not believe there are terrorists in the community? Isn't it to the


point that within a truth commission, people would address


issues in a way that they do not address them at the moment? You have


no idea what anybody might say when they are giving evidence to a truth


commission. But we have to take some example with what Martin McGuinness


did in the bloody Sunday inquiry where he said he could not give


further evidence because of a code. If I could finish this point, that


is a major issue for people from the Unionist community. Those are people


who had friends and colleagues murdered by those terrorists.


are the facts. The facts are that there is something like 400 State


killings during the conflict, that in terms of collusion, that goes way


up past 1000. In terms of people who have gone to jail, there are tens of


thousands of cases of non-state people who have gone through jail,


including myself. There are hundreds of thousands there already. How many


of the state forces? They all get out within a couple of years.


think these recommendations should be back on the table? What I think


we should do in terms of the HET is to try to find a way for them in


terms of truth and hopefully that will be the racks. No matter who you


talk to, people will agree that they want the truth. Give them the


truth, but everybody has to be involved, including state forces.


might hear another word from you in a moment, but I want to get my


guests in. Journalist Steven McCaffery and financial commentator


Paul Gosling. What do you think about what you have heard so far?


was not that long ago that we had the collapse of the police


ombudsman's office. Whether you thought it was a good thing or a bad


thing, we had a decisive row over the reemployment of certain officers


in the PSNI. All of these issues continue to impact on the present


and threaten the future of our institutions. We have police


officers who want to invest but are encouraged or feel as if the past


hangs over them. We asked some prisoners -- former prisoners to


help out with the marching season. We want to invest in the future and


we want these groups to pay for the past. There is also the needs of the


victims. I think with the reports, we will continue to refer back to


it. Do you think it'll find its way back onto the table? It has not been


written off by the two parties but it has not exactly been embraced


either. We have been talking about it and Stormont. Do you think we can


square the circle in terms of dealing with the past, because


clearly, people take very, very different views of where we are and


how we got here. I think we have to give up on achieving justice for the


past. We have to achieve truth for the past and move towards truth and


reconciliation and go back to the reports without -- to the reports


and say that, unfortunately, those things that went wrong during the


Troubles, we cannot punish every single person that was guilty of


that. If we did that, the peace process would collapse. The peace


process and reconciliation are more important than achieving justice for


past evil. So you think it is impossible -- so you think it is


possible to achieve truth but not necessarily alongside justice.


Is that unacceptable from your point of view? I think it is a reasonable


comment, but we have to remember that there is still a lack of


competence. Quite a lot of the state history is documented. There is a


lot of history documented I am not so sure that the things we have in


place can deal with the past. state was involved in terrorism. We


can argue about this all day. I agree with Paul that street is --


truth is not necessarily equal and it doesn't necessarily lead to


justice or reconciliation. We have a conundrum which we can work through,


but I repeat the one thing which is agreed, if that's truth, it may not


help and it might make people better, but let's get the truth. We


have to have some way of dealing with the other issues which are


involved. You cannot wipe it out. Everybody agrees that this is what


it is about. Victims, right cross the board. Therefore everybody needs


to be involved and the difficulties in need to be in the sized that


people are facing. -- emphasized. have to leave it there. Thank you


very much. We will hear more from our commentators admit later in the


programme. Now for a look at the political week in 60 seconds with


Stephen Walker. The Ulster Bank announced it was


cutting jobs and closing branches, much to the anger of an ballet.


Employees were informed of job losses. Reassurance about drug


dealers. The police will go after drug dealers. And ended the -- and


investigation into how the Army treated certain situations during


the Troubles. A storm and committee launched an inquiry and the minister


was called to step aside. -- a Stormont committee. But Nelson has


said he is staying put. I have no intention of stepping aside from


doing the job that I am doing. An opening ceremony at the King's


Hall in Belfast on the first of August will mark the opening of the


World Police and Fire Games. It's a big international event which is


held every two years. At one time it was hoped that as many 10,000


athletes would compete in the Belfast games. While that figure now


looks likely to be closer to 6,000, the organisers are confident the


event will showcase Northern Ireland and deliver a boost to the economy.


The Deputy Chief Constable, Judith Gillespie, is chair of the games and


she's with me this morning. What are the latest figures you have about


how many competitors there will be? Even today we have over 6100


athletes formally registered, and we remain hopeful that we will get near


to 7000 athletes coming over. Whilst we would say, yes, the original


target was 10,000 athletes and we are likely to fall short of that, if


I had said to you a couple of years ago that you would have 7000 people


from 60 different countries to take part in an international sporting


event in Belfast, you would have thought it was fantastic, so I feel


it will still be a great opportunity for Northern Ireland. Do you think


it has caught the public imagination? It is clearly very


exciting for the people who are involved. But out there in the


community, when you talk to people, you do not hear too many people


saying that they are looking forward to the 1st of August, do you?


would disagree with you on that point. Around 6000 people have


volunteered to be part of the games makers on the back of a very


successful London Olympics, and we are going to be using around 3600 of


those people in the ten days of the games. We have exceeded our


sponsorship target in a very challenging economic climate in


Northern Ireland, and that is fantastic to have some companies on


board who want to associate with the games, and we have people coming


from 60 companies all over the world, really remote parts of the


world like Mongolia and Ecuador. Many people are catching the spirit.


What will be the economic benefit? The cost to the public is just under


�40 million. What is the potential benefits in return for that


investment? -- just under �14 million. There is the benefit for


the hotels, the pubs and the venues all around Northern Ireland in which


these visitors will be interested in going. It is also the legacy of the


games. The relationships between our services and the community, the


relationships between some of the schools and international teams, for


example, we have a buddy scheme where some of our primary schools


have been but eat up with some teams coming from across the world, and it


will be a fantastic opportunity for the volunteer -- Olympics -- for the


volunteers, who may be going on to volunteer at the Commonwealth games.


But the economic benefit was talked up at the start of the process.


There were huge figures bandied around for the economic benefit for


Northern Ireland over a period of time in relation to the G8 summit


happening. Do you think you over and the pudding at the outset? Bear in


mind that the games are paid for by the athletes themselves. These are


retired police officers and fire service workers who are coming to


participate in these games. It is very different from the Commonwealth


games and Olympic Games where there is a significant sponsorship. These


people are coming out of their own money. The global recession has had


an impact on the games, but bear in mind, even now, we have 6100 people


who have indicated that they are coming and they have booked


accommodation and they are coming, so it is going to be a great


opportunity for Belfast and the whole of Northern Ireland. I am sure


a lot of people would agree with you. But some people might see a


difficulties in the fact that this time last year, we were looking


forward to the Olympics, and that was the pinnacle of athletic


achievement, said people have that fresh in their minds. They are


watching Wimbledon at the moment. We know there is so much excellent


sport out there. These are not professional sportsmen and women. I


just wonder is there the public interest to the same extent. It is


not likely, is it? It is true to say that the ethos of the World Police


and Fire Games is not about world-class sport, although there


are some world-class athletes who take part. We have some excellent


athletes who have taken part at a national and international level.


But the whole ethos of the games is about the timeliness of them --


friendliness of them. I think the local people want to be involved in


that. There will be links to all of the things that are going on at the


same time. It is a fantastic opportunity for the local community


to reengage with their local services. I cannot let you go


without asking about the earlier discussion that we had today, the


HET and quite what happens to it. Is it not usually embarrassing for the


PSNI that an organisation that it is responsible for has been found by


inspectors to be operating in a way deemed to be untenable and illegal


and have misinterpreted the very law? I think the Chief Constable has


dealt competently with this in the last couple of days. We have


recognised the gravity of the situation. The recommendations in


the report will be moving quickly to implement with the oversight of the


Policing Board. This has to be viewed with the wider context of the


past. If this report does nothing else but to re-energize that


conversation about the wider legacy issues and how we deal with them as


a society, that is very welcome. will be a very difficult


conversation tomorrow between mats Baggett and Dave Cox tomorrow


afternoon. And that is one that needs to take place. We need to talk


about how we will re-energize the Policing Board of the longer term.


It is a Constable -- conversation between the Chief Constable and the


HET. I think the Chief Constable will be looking for Dave's


insurances about -- assurances about the commenting these as soon as


possible. Just time for a final word with our guests Steven McCaffery and


Paul Gosling. Looking forward to them? It means nothing to me, I am


afraid. I had never even heard of the Historical Enquires Team before.


We have the -- the City of Culture is magnificent and has turned the


city around, but I will not even be switching the television on for the


World Police and Fire Games. It'll hopefully be part of a quiet and


positive summer. The recall of the Assembly tomorrow to debate the


allegations made about political interference in the running of the


NI Housing Executive? I think it is going to be a very heated meeting.


There has been an absence of scrutiny from the point of view of


the public. There were some damning allegations brought to the table


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