07/07/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


07/07/2013

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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And coming up here: A damning report followed by a declaration of no

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confidence. What does the future hold for the Historical Enquiries

:01:17.:01:21.

Team? We hear from Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly and Tom Elliott from the

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2167 seconds

:01:31.:37:38.

in Northern Ireland. A damning report followed by a

:37:38.:37:41.

declaration of no confidence from the Policing Board. What does the

:37:41.:37:44.

future hold for the Historical Enquires Team? We'll be asking two

:37:44.:37:48.

senior MLAs if the HET will survive the current crisis.

:37:48.:37:51.

Also today, it's been hailed as a huge opportunity to showcase

:37:51.:37:55.

Northern Ireland. So can the World Police and Fires Games live up to

:37:55.:37:59.

the hype? We'll hear from chair of the games, Judith Gillespie.

:37:59.:38:03.

To discuss all of that and more, my guests today are the journalist,

:38:03.:38:13.
:38:13.:38:17.

Steven McCaffery, and the financial commentator Paul Gosling.

:38:17.:38:20.

Tomorrow the head of the Historical Enquiries, Dave Cox, is due to meet

:38:20.:38:23.

the Chief Constable for the first time since the Policing Board

:38:23.:38:26.

declared it had no confidence in the team's leadership. It follows a

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damning report, which strongly criticised the HET for dealing with

:38:28.:38:31.

killings by soldiers with 'less rigour' than those with no state

:38:31.:38:34.

involvement. So, with the body under increasing pressure, does the crisis

:38:34.:38:37.

re-open the debate about how best to deal with the past? I'm joined now

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by Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly and Tom Elliott from the Ulster Unionists.

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The head of the HET, Dave Cox, is due to meet the Chief Constable

:38:48.:38:55.

tomorrow. What needs to happen at that meeting? I think it is

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important that there is no confidence in the leadership of the

:39:02.:39:08.

HET and Dave Cox clearly is in the leadership of that. We are talking

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about a different approach to state cases and non-state cases as a

:39:13.:39:19.

matter of written down policy and guidelines, and somebody has to take

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responsibility for that. When the person who led the inquiry was

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direct -- directly asked by the Policing Board he was responsible,

:39:28.:39:33.

he said it was the Chief Constable. The Chief Constable has said that

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the wrongful policy was a matter of the HET. What is very, very clear is

:39:39.:39:45.

that a policy decision was made and it was illegal, which is the other

:39:45.:39:51.

important thing to say. It was actually unlawful to do this. It was

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unlawful and untenable, so someone has to tell us what is going to

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happen to whoever was responsible. Would you like to see Dave Cox

:39:59.:40:07.

resigning? If he is the leader and you have no confidence, does he have

:40:07.:40:13.

to go? My position is very clear. There is no way that I can see Dave

:40:13.:40:18.

Cox staying. Does it stop at bats or does it have ramifications for the

:40:18.:40:24.

Chief Constable as well. -- does it stop at that or does it have

:40:24.:40:29.

ramifications for the Chief Constable as well? We are setting up

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with the Policing Board in charge 18 to implement the 20 recommendations

:40:39.:40:49.
:40:49.:40:49.

-- with the Policing Board 18 two implement the 20 recommendations

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that have been made. League-macro you cannot blame everything on the

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establishment. -- you cannot blame everything on the establishment.

:41:01.:41:05.

did not believe they were carrying out a proper review process of many

:41:05.:41:09.

of the murders. I think we are getting into a system that appears

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to be blaming the state for everything. Let's not forget that

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ever 90% of the murders in Northern Ireland were by terrorists, not by

:41:19.:41:24.

the state. That does not what this investigation was about. That is not

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what we are discussing. This investigation and this particular

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room port is very narrow in its focus. Look at the 31 cases, a vast

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majority of them were cases that the state was involved in. The state was

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involved in less than 10% of the overall murders in Northern Ireland.

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There are people from the community that I represent to our saying that

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they are only seeing one side of the report and they want people to get

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justice for all of the murders that were caused by terrorists. That

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might be the case and that might be an issue that is discussed at

:42:04.:42:08.

another time. The point is, we are discussing this particular review of

:42:08.:42:12.

the work of the HET which was tasked with looking after a specific area,

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and it has come up with these damning conclusions. Are you not

:42:16.:42:21.

concerned that the HET -- HET has been found to be operating in a way

:42:21.:42:29.

that is untenable and unlawful? concerned, just as I was concerned

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for years ago about them not approaching those who could have

:42:34.:42:39.

been of help and assistance in approaching these investigations.

:42:39.:42:43.

Any number of Sinn Fein, even Sinn Fein collectively, there were any

:42:43.:42:46.

number of people who could've helped with these cases, and they have not

:42:47.:42:56.
:42:57.:42:58.

once. What needs to happen to resolve this issue is to go forward?

:42:58.:43:04.

If you look at the other inquiries going on, including the police and

:43:04.:43:08.

coroner inquests, I do not believe the system we have in place can

:43:08.:43:12.

actually deal with the past. I believe that we have got to a stage

:43:12.:43:15.

now where there is no confidence in dealing with the past overall

:43:15.:43:20.

because people from the Unionists agenda -- Unionist party see that

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there is an agenda and that they are not getting fairness and equality.

:43:27.:43:31.

If the vast majority of the people in the country were murdered by

:43:31.:43:35.

terrorists... Whether you like it or not, it is clearly a view which is

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held by a lot of people, and it is part of the difficulty that we all

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face as a society. He is giving the impression that this is not fair.

:43:46.:43:51.

You have to remember what this report is about. It is about the

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unfairness of those who were not in the state cases. It is quite the

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flip side of what Tom saying. -- Tom is saying. Sinn Fein for a long time

:44:03.:44:07.

have said that the best way to deal with the past is to go through a

:44:07.:44:13.

process, and there are many examples of these, and they have been

:44:13.:44:16.

adapted. It is Unionists who are refusing to go anywhere near a truth

:44:16.:44:23.

process. I am very much up for it. That is where we need to go. It is

:44:23.:44:30.

important to say this, Professor Patricia Lundy, as far back as that

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point of the difficulties, she was rubbish, her reputation was ruined.

:44:40.:44:46.

Her reputation is intact. All I am saying is that it was quite unfair

:44:46.:44:53.

that but the HET in answer to the report and members of the PSNI

:44:53.:45:02.

ruined her and she has been being vacated and it needs to be said. --

:45:02.:45:12.
:45:12.:45:12.

vindicated. You have said that the recommendations need to be put back

:45:12.:45:18.

on the table again and that we look at the Legacy Commission led by an

:45:18.:45:20.

end -- international figure to take over the work of the police

:45:20.:45:29.

ombudsman and the HET. Is that one of the options? It may be. He talks

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about trying to get a truth commission. How are you going to get

:45:33.:45:43.

a truth commission trying to operate properly when you have some people

:45:43.:45:47.

think they have no issues of terrorism in the community and they

:45:47.:45:52.

do not believe there are terrorists in the community? Isn't it to the

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point that within a truth commission, people would address

:45:54.:45:57.

issues in a way that they do not address them at the moment? You have

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no idea what anybody might say when they are giving evidence to a truth

:46:02.:46:07.

commission. But we have to take some example with what Martin McGuinness

:46:07.:46:13.

did in the bloody Sunday inquiry where he said he could not give

:46:13.:46:16.

further evidence because of a code. If I could finish this point, that

:46:16.:46:20.

is a major issue for people from the Unionist community. Those are people

:46:20.:46:25.

who had friends and colleagues murdered by those terrorists.

:46:25.:46:31.

are the facts. The facts are that there is something like 400 State

:46:31.:46:36.

killings during the conflict, that in terms of collusion, that goes way

:46:36.:46:42.

up past 1000. In terms of people who have gone to jail, there are tens of

:46:42.:46:47.

thousands of cases of non-state people who have gone through jail,

:46:47.:46:52.

including myself. There are hundreds of thousands there already. How many

:46:52.:46:57.

of the state forces? They all get out within a couple of years.

:46:57.:47:01.

think these recommendations should be back on the table? What I think

:47:01.:47:07.

we should do in terms of the HET is to try to find a way for them in

:47:07.:47:14.

terms of truth and hopefully that will be the racks. No matter who you

:47:14.:47:18.

talk to, people will agree that they want the truth. Give them the

:47:18.:47:23.

truth, but everybody has to be involved, including state forces.

:47:23.:47:28.

might hear another word from you in a moment, but I want to get my

:47:28.:47:35.

guests in. Journalist Steven McCaffery and financial commentator

:47:35.:47:41.

Paul Gosling. What do you think about what you have heard so far?

:47:41.:47:45.

was not that long ago that we had the collapse of the police

:47:45.:47:51.

ombudsman's office. Whether you thought it was a good thing or a bad

:47:51.:47:57.

thing, we had a decisive row over the reemployment of certain officers

:47:57.:48:01.

in the PSNI. All of these issues continue to impact on the present

:48:01.:48:05.

and threaten the future of our institutions. We have police

:48:05.:48:12.

officers who want to invest but are encouraged or feel as if the past

:48:12.:48:17.

hangs over them. We asked some prisoners -- former prisoners to

:48:17.:48:21.

help out with the marching season. We want to invest in the future and

:48:21.:48:27.

we want these groups to pay for the past. There is also the needs of the

:48:27.:48:35.

victims. I think with the reports, we will continue to refer back to

:48:35.:48:40.

it. Do you think it'll find its way back onto the table? It has not been

:48:40.:48:43.

written off by the two parties but it has not exactly been embraced

:48:43.:48:50.

either. We have been talking about it and Stormont. Do you think we can

:48:50.:48:53.

square the circle in terms of dealing with the past, because

:48:53.:48:57.

clearly, people take very, very different views of where we are and

:48:57.:49:04.

how we got here. I think we have to give up on achieving justice for the

:49:04.:49:09.

past. We have to achieve truth for the past and move towards truth and

:49:09.:49:17.

reconciliation and go back to the reports without -- to the reports

:49:17.:49:20.

and say that, unfortunately, those things that went wrong during the

:49:20.:49:24.

Troubles, we cannot punish every single person that was guilty of

:49:24.:49:29.

that. If we did that, the peace process would collapse. The peace

:49:29.:49:33.

process and reconciliation are more important than achieving justice for

:49:33.:49:39.

past evil. So you think it is impossible -- so you think it is

:49:39.:49:45.

possible to achieve truth but not necessarily alongside justice.

:49:45.:49:50.

Is that unacceptable from your point of view? I think it is a reasonable

:49:50.:49:53.

comment, but we have to remember that there is still a lack of

:49:53.:50:02.

competence. Quite a lot of the state history is documented. There is a

:50:02.:50:12.
:50:12.:50:16.

lot of history documented I am not so sure that the things we have in

:50:16.:50:22.

place can deal with the past. state was involved in terrorism. We

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can argue about this all day. I agree with Paul that street is --

:50:28.:50:31.

truth is not necessarily equal and it doesn't necessarily lead to

:50:31.:50:37.

justice or reconciliation. We have a conundrum which we can work through,

:50:37.:50:41.

but I repeat the one thing which is agreed, if that's truth, it may not

:50:41.:50:47.

help and it might make people better, but let's get the truth. We

:50:47.:50:50.

have to have some way of dealing with the other issues which are

:50:50.:50:55.

involved. You cannot wipe it out. Everybody agrees that this is what

:50:55.:50:59.

it is about. Victims, right cross the board. Therefore everybody needs

:50:59.:51:06.

to be involved and the difficulties in need to be in the sized that

:51:06.:51:13.

people are facing. -- emphasized. have to leave it there. Thank you

:51:13.:51:18.

very much. We will hear more from our commentators admit later in the

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programme. Now for a look at the political week in 60 seconds with

:51:25.:51:30.

Stephen Walker. The Ulster Bank announced it was

:51:30.:51:39.

cutting jobs and closing branches, much to the anger of an ballet.

:51:39.:51:49.
:51:49.:51:54.

Employees were informed of job losses. Reassurance about drug

:51:54.:52:01.

dealers. The police will go after drug dealers. And ended the -- and

:52:01.:52:03.

investigation into how the Army treated certain situations during

:52:03.:52:13.
:52:13.:52:14.

the Troubles. A storm and committee launched an inquiry and the minister

:52:14.:52:19.

was called to step aside. -- a Stormont committee. But Nelson has

:52:20.:52:24.

said he is staying put. I have no intention of stepping aside from

:52:24.:52:34.
:52:34.:52:36.

doing the job that I am doing. An opening ceremony at the King's

:52:36.:52:39.

Hall in Belfast on the first of August will mark the opening of the

:52:39.:52:44.

World Police and Fire Games. It's a big international event which is

:52:44.:52:48.

held every two years. At one time it was hoped that as many 10,000

:52:48.:52:55.

athletes would compete in the Belfast games. While that figure now

:52:55.:52:58.

looks likely to be closer to 6,000, the organisers are confident the

:52:58.:53:01.

event will showcase Northern Ireland and deliver a boost to the economy.

:53:01.:53:04.

The Deputy Chief Constable, Judith Gillespie, is chair of the games and

:53:04.:53:07.

she's with me this morning. What are the latest figures you have about

:53:07.:53:13.

how many competitors there will be? Even today we have over 6100

:53:14.:53:19.

athletes formally registered, and we remain hopeful that we will get near

:53:19.:53:22.

to 7000 athletes coming over. Whilst we would say, yes, the original

:53:22.:53:26.

target was 10,000 athletes and we are likely to fall short of that, if

:53:26.:53:30.

I had said to you a couple of years ago that you would have 7000 people

:53:30.:53:34.

from 60 different countries to take part in an international sporting

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event in Belfast, you would have thought it was fantastic, so I feel

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it will still be a great opportunity for Northern Ireland. Do you think

:53:42.:53:46.

it has caught the public imagination? It is clearly very

:53:46.:53:50.

exciting for the people who are involved. But out there in the

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community, when you talk to people, you do not hear too many people

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saying that they are looking forward to the 1st of August, do you?

:53:58.:54:03.

would disagree with you on that point. Around 6000 people have

:54:03.:54:07.

volunteered to be part of the games makers on the back of a very

:54:07.:54:11.

successful London Olympics, and we are going to be using around 3600 of

:54:11.:54:17.

those people in the ten days of the games. We have exceeded our

:54:17.:54:21.

sponsorship target in a very challenging economic climate in

:54:21.:54:24.

Northern Ireland, and that is fantastic to have some companies on

:54:24.:54:28.

board who want to associate with the games, and we have people coming

:54:28.:54:32.

from 60 companies all over the world, really remote parts of the

:54:32.:54:38.

world like Mongolia and Ecuador. Many people are catching the spirit.

:54:38.:54:42.

What will be the economic benefit? The cost to the public is just under

:54:42.:54:49.

�40 million. What is the potential benefits in return for that

:54:50.:54:55.

investment? -- just under �14 million. There is the benefit for

:54:55.:55:01.

the hotels, the pubs and the venues all around Northern Ireland in which

:55:01.:55:04.

these visitors will be interested in going. It is also the legacy of the

:55:04.:55:09.

games. The relationships between our services and the community, the

:55:09.:55:12.

relationships between some of the schools and international teams, for

:55:12.:55:17.

example, we have a buddy scheme where some of our primary schools

:55:17.:55:22.

have been but eat up with some teams coming from across the world, and it

:55:22.:55:31.

will be a fantastic opportunity for the volunteer -- Olympics -- for the

:55:31.:55:37.

volunteers, who may be going on to volunteer at the Commonwealth games.

:55:37.:55:42.

But the economic benefit was talked up at the start of the process.

:55:42.:55:45.

There were huge figures bandied around for the economic benefit for

:55:45.:55:53.

Northern Ireland over a period of time in relation to the G8 summit

:55:53.:55:58.

happening. Do you think you over and the pudding at the outset? Bear in

:55:58.:56:04.

mind that the games are paid for by the athletes themselves. These are

:56:04.:56:10.

retired police officers and fire service workers who are coming to

:56:10.:56:14.

participate in these games. It is very different from the Commonwealth

:56:14.:56:16.

games and Olympic Games where there is a significant sponsorship. These

:56:16.:56:21.

people are coming out of their own money. The global recession has had

:56:21.:56:27.

an impact on the games, but bear in mind, even now, we have 6100 people

:56:27.:56:29.

who have indicated that they are coming and they have booked

:56:29.:56:33.

accommodation and they are coming, so it is going to be a great

:56:33.:56:37.

opportunity for Belfast and the whole of Northern Ireland. I am sure

:56:37.:56:42.

a lot of people would agree with you. But some people might see a

:56:42.:56:45.

difficulties in the fact that this time last year, we were looking

:56:45.:56:48.

forward to the Olympics, and that was the pinnacle of athletic

:56:49.:56:51.

achievement, said people have that fresh in their minds. They are

:56:51.:56:56.

watching Wimbledon at the moment. We know there is so much excellent

:56:56.:57:00.

sport out there. These are not professional sportsmen and women. I

:57:00.:57:03.

just wonder is there the public interest to the same extent. It is

:57:03.:57:08.

not likely, is it? It is true to say that the ethos of the World Police

:57:08.:57:10.

and Fire Games is not about world-class sport, although there

:57:11.:57:17.

are some world-class athletes who take part. We have some excellent

:57:17.:57:20.

athletes who have taken part at a national and international level.

:57:20.:57:27.

But the whole ethos of the games is about the timeliness of them --

:57:27.:57:29.

friendliness of them. I think the local people want to be involved in

:57:29.:57:35.

that. There will be links to all of the things that are going on at the

:57:35.:57:39.

same time. It is a fantastic opportunity for the local community

:57:39.:57:44.

to reengage with their local services. I cannot let you go

:57:44.:57:47.

without asking about the earlier discussion that we had today, the

:57:47.:57:51.

HET and quite what happens to it. Is it not usually embarrassing for the

:57:51.:57:57.

PSNI that an organisation that it is responsible for has been found by

:57:57.:58:01.

inspectors to be operating in a way deemed to be untenable and illegal

:58:01.:58:07.

and have misinterpreted the very law? I think the Chief Constable has

:58:07.:58:11.

dealt competently with this in the last couple of days. We have

:58:11.:58:14.

recognised the gravity of the situation. The recommendations in

:58:14.:58:19.

the report will be moving quickly to implement with the oversight of the

:58:19.:58:23.

Policing Board. This has to be viewed with the wider context of the

:58:23.:58:27.

past. If this report does nothing else but to re-energize that

:58:27.:58:31.

conversation about the wider legacy issues and how we deal with them as

:58:31.:58:36.

a society, that is very welcome. will be a very difficult

:58:36.:58:39.

conversation tomorrow between mats Baggett and Dave Cox tomorrow

:58:39.:58:48.

afternoon. And that is one that needs to take place. We need to talk

:58:48.:58:53.

about how we will re-energize the Policing Board of the longer term.

:58:53.:58:56.

It is a Constable -- conversation between the Chief Constable and the

:58:56.:59:03.

HET. I think the Chief Constable will be looking for Dave's

:59:03.:59:08.

insurances about -- assurances about the commenting these as soon as

:59:09.:59:13.

possible. Just time for a final word with our guests Steven McCaffery and

:59:13.:59:20.

Paul Gosling. Looking forward to them? It means nothing to me, I am

:59:20.:59:25.

afraid. I had never even heard of the Historical Enquires Team before.

:59:25.:59:35.
:59:35.:59:36.

We have the -- the City of Culture is magnificent and has turned the

:59:36.:59:43.

city around, but I will not even be switching the television on for the

:59:43.:59:46.

World Police and Fire Games. It'll hopefully be part of a quiet and

:59:46.:59:56.
:59:56.:59:56.

positive summer. The recall of the Assembly tomorrow to debate the

:59:56.:59:58.

allegations made about political interference in the running of the

:59:58.:00:02.

NI Housing Executive? I think it is going to be a very heated meeting.

:00:02.:00:06.

There has been an absence of scrutiny from the point of view of

:00:06.:00:10.

the public. There were some damning allegations brought to the table

:00:10.:00:15.

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