30/06/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Another road in the way forward for post primary education here, this

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1921 seconds

time in the Craigavon area. Join me in Northern Ireland. School may be

out, but may be a way forward for post primary education? There has

been no end of terror and cheer for politicians who feel this may be the

end of schools in the Craigavon area. Joining me is Mervyn Storey

and Chris Hazzard. And in the Republic, tensions rise as TDs

prepare to vote on abortion legislation. Discussing that are

Dearbhil McDonald from the Irish Independent and public relations

consultant Nick Garbutt. Is a proposal to merge several post

primary schools in County Armagh an attempt to end selection by the back

door? The Dickson Plan has been used in Craigavon for the last 40 years.

Children are selected to go to a grammar or high school at 14 instead

of 11. The decision to merge the two grammar schools - Portadown College

and Lurgan College - with their neighbouring high schools has

sharply divided the community. Joining me is Mervyn Storey and Sinn

Fein's Chris Hazzard. Thank you for joining us. Mervyn Storey, this is a

decision taken by the southern education board, southern -- subject

to further consultation. The minister says he will listen to all

representations before he makes the final call. What is the problem? The

problem is the Minister has nailed his colours to the mast this week.

In terms of the Dickson Plan, he sees it as part of the problem

rather than the solution. There is a serious question mark over the

integrity of the process, the discussions it would seem that took

place in the Department for Education prior to the board taking

its decision in relation to this matter, so the independence of this

process is questionable. There is a clear majority of parents, 87% of

parents in the Dickson Plan area, who want it to remain. Clearly the

Minister and the board have not listened to that expression of the

opinion. The Minister has been very clear about this, he said he wants

the best possible education for every child in the area. He does not

deny that some children do well in the current system but he wants

every child to have that opportunity. And so do we, we want

the same for all children. If there has to be elements of

change to the system, no system of change -- no system is perfect,

however, what is very clear is that we have a situation now where we are

basically being told that, despite what the public opinion is, despite

the other issues of real concerns, it seems as though the control

sector is being bullied into following the line of the maintained

sector, when the maintained sector is unhappy with following the

direction the bishops have given in academic selection. The controlled

sector should not be treated in that way because of others. What about

the notion of parental choice? Mervyn Storey says 87% of parents

want the system to stay the way it This is the south-eastern border,

and we must remember that five of the seven schools Mervyn Storey is

referring to have supported the move is. -- the moves. The Catholic

sector have proposed an nonvoluntary, all-inclusive grammar

school, so this does not have to be the end of grammar schools. There is

a question on the controlled sector, why do you not open up to every

child in this area? It is the southern board area, Doucet

south-eastern. There is now -- you said south-eastern. There is now

consultation. The question is, will the Minister will listen to Michael

and if he can be persuaded by Mervyn Storey and others that he has got

this wrong, Mickey be persuaded to not go down this road? -- might he

be persuaded? I have said that he will listen to

all arguments from the table, but he cannot argue with statistics.

you can argue with statistics, Mervyn Storey will produce other

statistics. 43% of children are underachieving in the Dickson Plan.

That is far worse than the average rate across the North. Where is the

evidence that changing the system will address that problem? Clearly

we do not have that evidence, because the Ofsted report last week

from England clearly demonstrated that children are not performing

well in a comprehensive system. The use of this figure, 43%, is an

absolute misnomer. What we are doing is putting all of the schools in the

Dickson Plan. They are maintained, integrated and controlled, -- the

maintained, the integrated and the controlled, they are put altogether

and it is a very different picture. The bishops have failed in terms of

persuading the Roman Catholic community in Northern Ireland that

there is merit in moving away from high academic achieving schools.

They have not completely failed. if you talk to parents in the

Craigavon area, they are not convinced the plan for the

maintained sector is the way in which they should proceed, because

now we have parents in the Catholic sector looking for places in

nondenominational grammar schools. I think that is an issue that Catholic

bishops need to take seriously. What do you want to see happening

now to Michael you have tried to go over the head of the education

minister. You have asked the First Minister to allow the decision

ultimately to be taken by the Assembly? Queer as the democracy in

that? -- where is the democracy in that? The Minister himself has

unfortunately muddied the waters in the comments he made this week where

he was critical of the Dickson Plan. He is the person who tells us this

plan will have to come to him, and he will in a dispassionate and

independent way make a decision. He has already decided and that is why

I believe the executive has to call this decision into question. What

happens if we go down that road, where the power is taken out of

Europe Party colleagues' hands to make the decision? The education

minister is responsible for the education attainment of all the

children in the north. We have a situation where 43%, nearly half of

the children at GCSE level, are not achieving five GCSEs. That indicates

to us change is needed and is needed right now. Mervyn Storey, before we

move on, I need to ask you for your response to comments from Donal

McKeown, the auxiliary Bishop of Conor Ryan down. He said your Party

leader's -- corner -- Down and Connor. He said your Party leader's

comments were nakedly sectarian. This is not the first time my Party

leader has been misquoted and misrepresented. Donal McKeown came

out and said that in a very negative attitude. Ten days later he had to

change his tune because he was on the wrong side of the argument. The

debate about education was commenced by my Party leader and is now

continuing, and I think the bishop needs to listen to his own

community, see what is happening within his own community and

recognise that the apartheid in terms of educational provision

cannot continue and we need a resolution. I think that that is

where the bishops, rather than protecting their own side, need to

come into the 21st-century. Thank you both very much indeed for now.

Let's hear from Dearbhil McDonald and Nick Garbutt, today's

commentators. First of all, divisions over postprimary education

in this part of the world simply will not go away. They will not come

it will be difficult to resolve. To look at it coldly and

objectively, we have a real crisis in our education system, because we

have too many young people in -- leaving school who are not fit for

the workplace. At the same time we have too many schools, because you

are dividing by academic selection but also along religious lines. It

is expensive to educate its at the moment, and unless there is

something of rationalisation, we are not ever going to get any better. It

is a huge issue for politicians to grapple with, and that is probably

why we have not made a great deal of progress in the past few years.

Dearbhil McDonald, what is your interpretation? You went through

education in this part of the world, but you now live outside the area,

what do you think? I benefited from the selection in Northern Ireland,

the 11 plus, which is a grotesque example in my view in the Republic,

it was streamlined later, and also on a faith basis, I attended a

Catholic maintained grammar school and did very well from it. But there

is an apartheid in education in the north. If you think in terms of a

shared future, this is something that has to be grappled across

Ulster. We are having a different debate in the Republican terms of

primary schools, 90% of which are Catholic maintained. A lot of people

are Catholic by default in Republic of Ireland, virtual -- by virtue of

the need to get their children into the education facility of their

choice. There are some schools in Dublin where there are no white

children, for example. On both sides of the border we are struggling with

this need. It is an apartheid that needs to be addressed. The education

system is one of the main prisons we have to get through to a shared

future. It is contributed, we believe it there now. There was a

time in the Republic when the church and the state had a close

relationship but times have certainly changed as DD is prepared

to vote this week on the controversial Abortion Bill.

The government is ignoring the Catholic Church's objections. -- as

TDss prepare to vote. There was a time when the church and the state

had a cosy relationship, but the revelations of child sex abuse by

priests and the cover-ups by bishops more worried about the church's

reputation than the plight of victims changed all that.

I am proud to stand here as a public representative, as Taoiseach who

happens to be Catholic, but not a catholic Taoiseach.

Abortion as an issue arouses strong passions and the Taoiseach made

those remarks in ranch -- answer to a question on the subject. The

government's proposal is divisive, to allow terminations when three

medics all agreed a mother is suicidal because of her pregnancy.

Anti-abortion campaigners say the Bill will for the first time allow

for the intentional killing of the unborn in the Republic. For them it

is not just a religious but human rights issue, as the mother and

foetus have equal rights to life. I feel everyone has a right to life,

especially those in the womb of a mother. No matter how much oil has

been conceived it has a right to life. As Catholics, as catholic

priests and a catholic nation, we have a human rights to highlight the

importance of life from the womb to the tomb.

Eamon Martin, the incoming Catholic Primate, said that those TDss and

senators who voted for the Abortion Bill will excommunicate themselves.

Senator Ronan Mullen, who has strong pro-life views, says excommunication

is a red herring. Politicians like to say down here that they are

somehow standing up to the Catholic Church. That is kind of juvenile at

this stage. This is an issue about a child's life and the mother's best

interests. The value shared by the genteel manner born novelist here.

In her newspaper column she praised the Taoiseach for not bending the

knee to the church on abortion and for ignoring excommunication.

There is talk about it being a red herring, but it was a red herring

tangled by Seaview -- senior clerics and it has beaten the Calcutta and

politicians back into line before, but not any more. -- recalcitrant

politicians. The Doyle is due to have the first of the votes on the

Bill in the coming days, with the legislation expected to pass

comfortably, another sign of the changing structure and state

relationship. -- church and state relationship.

Joining me now is Father Tim Bartlett.

Don't you have to accept at this stage that the Catholic Church is

not bigger than the democratic process? I think this issue of

abortion cannot be reduced to an issue of church and state. That is a

hackneyed, 70s, 80s debate in the Republic. A priest of my generation

comes to this debate as a citizen, who with other citizens, in fact

40,000 citizens who gathered for a pro-life rally, two weeks ago. It

was not organised by the church. Those who were there included

bishops who came voluntarily, but they were surrounded by people of

every age who had no connection to the church because they share a

commitment to the gym in principle that it is never right to directly

and intentionally kill an innocent person. -- to the human principle.

Forget the church-state side of that, it is not about flat any more.

It is not just Catholics, despite your carefully chosen clips. It may

be it is not just Catholics, and it may be that you don't like to

characterise it as church against state, but whether you like that or

not it is how many people see it. Martina Devlin said this effectively

comes down to democracy against theocracy.

No, it doesn't. A pluralist, diverse democracy allows space for all

voices. What is really happening is increasingly politicians and so on

are not only marginalising voices that don't suit their agenda,

including the church, which is not pluralist, diverse democracy, but

the Taoiseach and particular and others are -- in particular, are

forcing the issue and forcing people to vote in a particular way. That is

dictatorship, not diverse, pluralist democracy. Give us a free vote and

let us see what democracy, free from the political whip, actually

produces. If what you are saying is correct, why did the incoming

Catholic Primate Eamon Martin say that those TDss who voted in favour

will excommunicate themselves two that is a fact. If they are memories

of the Catholic Church and freely assented to be so, this is an issue

of fundamental importance. -- if they are members of the Catholic

Church. The issue of excommunication is not the right issue in terms of

what might happen if somebody votes for this.

Everyone should be aware that voting for this Bill is, without any

question or doubt, cooperating in a mortal evil. It has serious

consequences for every individual. What about the Catholic elected

representative in the Republic who does not share your view? They have

to explain to everyone why they believe that is not the case.

However, there is no objective or rational way that this Bill can be

squared with the pro-life position. How can you square pro-life view

with the intentional killing of end -- innocent children? This Bill is

medically unjustified and unnecessary. It is legally

unjustified and unnecessary and in our view it is constitutionally

challengeable on a lot of fronts, including the right of individual

politicians to exercise their constitutional rights in relation to

conscience and religious belief to not have any penalty applied to

them. You say that this is a -- not an issue on church and state and it

is cliched and hackneyed to say that, yet you chant -- turn it into

church against state. The Taoiseach said I am a Taoiseach who is

catholic but not a catholic Taoiseach. The irony is that a

Catholic politician should be able to say I am a catholic, I am a

citizen, and my catholic faith informs my human reason about this

value. They should actually have this base to be Catholic, not have

to push that to the side. That is the real dynamic going on in our

society, we want to marginalise all sorts of faith and create a new,

secular orthodoxy. There is no neutral view of society. Everyone

come including catholic politicians, should be able to see what they

believe openly. Thank you, let me bring in Dearbhil McDonald, who

takes a keen interest in this particular subject. But is Father

Tim Bartlett have a point when he says it is not in a point when he

says it is not innocently a surplus extends about church and state?

He is, in this sense. When the original pro-life amendment

came into being the church had a lot of influence at that stage. Over a

30 year period since 1992, the X case, which we are no legislating

for, the influence has waned. They are still a powerful voice, but the

reason it is not a simple democracy-theocracy debate is that

public opinion in rock -- Ireland has changed. We are legislating for

the X case, as far back as 1992. There was a recent opinion poll

commissioned by the Irish Times showing more than eight out of ten

supported lawful termination of pregnancy in circumstances of rape

and incest. Much of the debate in the Republic has been, why are we

not including fatal faecal abnormalities? There have been some

interesting developments since 1980. And since 1992. The Supreme

Court recently had a ruling that addressed the staters of the unborn.

In the context of a frozen embryo, there was a challenge to that. The

protection for the unborn is after -- for the unborn is after

implantation. Within a few years we will have a fatal abnormality case

before our courts and it is arguable on the Supreme Court's bases that

will be allowed under the Constitution. If the church calls

for a referendum I don't know whether... The main issue here is

with suicide, and twice the electorate in the Republic of

Ireland has rejected excluding on grounds of suicide. It is no longer

simply church and state but not for the reasons suggested. What you are

saying is in fact there could be a much wider debate about abortion

being allowed in more circumstances than would be allowed under the

proposed legislation? Absolutely. The same opinion poll showed a huge

drop in support, only four out of ten supported in that case. I have

to say that other people other than the church have expressed concerns

about the issue of suicide. Closing sentence if you would, Father Tim

Bartlett, on that point by Dearbhil McDonald, that it could be about

more than it is? It is interesting that opinion polls show that we are

this debate has focused, on the inclusion of suicide as a grounds

for abortion, that the medical evidence jest this is not the case

for abortion and will lead to mental health difficulties for all women,

where it has focused on that the opinion polls have come down.

debate is only starting and let us have it as equal citizens with an

equal right to be heard. Thank you very much for coming in to join us.

This is a look at the political week gone past in 60 seconds with Gareth

Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly came under fire from Unionists at his behaviour

at a north Belfast parade. Anyone that views the video evidence will

consider him to have been reckless and ill-advised. The Deputy First

Minister backed his fellow MLA and said he was happy to speak to the

Orange order about contentious parades. What people need to do is

set down in a room together and worked out a solution. At

Westminster, Alistair MacDonald was in trouble with the DUP.

The DUP, Mr Speaker, are bigots and sectarians and want to drive a wedge

through our society. And Jimmy Spratt apologised after referring to

opponents of the peace and reconciliation centre at the Maze as

nutters. You know what you said. You do not know what I said. I heard

what you said. Gareth Gordon with the weak and sick

stay seconds, and when the Hansard transcript was published it was

shown that Jimmy Spratt had used the phrase nutters. Nick Garbutt, the

performance of our politicians over the past seven days? It hasn't been

great, has it? We were all in our best behaviour during the G8 summit

and it is all deteriorating. Bad time, as well, with the marching