23/06/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Ministers want the power to make planning decisions. Is it a power

grab? Or does it make economic sense? We'll hear from the Planning

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2107 seconds

Minister, the chair of the committee Politics in Northern Ireland.

Planning decisions always have the potential to cause controversy. But

now a row is brewing over who will make major economic planning

decisions. A proposal by the DUP and Sinn Fein to take away powers from

the Department of the Environment and give them to the office of the

First and Deputy First Ministers will go before the Assembly

tomorrow. Alex Attwood, the Minister with responsibility for planning

joins me. And we'll also hear from the chair of the Environment

Committee, Anna Lo, and the DUP's Peter Weir. Also today - the world's

most powerful leaders have come and gone, but what will be the legacy of

the G8 in Fermanagh? We'll have the views of PR expert Sheila Davidson

and Jim Flanagan of the Ballymena conservation groups and the chair of

the Environment Committee about his proposed Planning Bill, which his

critics claim favours economic factors rather than the protection

of the environment. But now the DUP and Sinn Fein have tabled amendments

to the legislation which would take power away from the Minister and

also make it harder to challenge planning decisions in the courts.

The Environment Minister, Alex Attwood, joins me. Thank you for

joining us, do you see this as an attempted power-grab by Sinn Fein

the the DUP? I think in law and politics this is folly. In law I

don't think they can do this. Because the amendments are hostile

and do violence to Northern Ireland and European legislation. But it is

also is bad politics, because we have seen over the last couple of

years where First Minister and deputy First Minister took power on

to themselves with a neighbourhood renewal project ap it has fallen

flat on its face. How much worse if you had another planning authority

that don't have the resources, the capacity, or the history of doing

planning, what catastrophe this could be at a time when planning has

turned many corners. Their view is planning decisions are slow and this

is designed to speed things up. you Fawlkes to the development

community, they will tell you, unlike two years ago applications by

the minister, articles 31s, they are being made more quick Liverpool look

at the -- more quickly. Look at the football ground and others, and we

are meeting our targets for ordinary application and we are making more

decisions is. So I have demonstrated, the planned system can

turn corners. What First Minister and deputy First Minister is they

want to put it back down a dead end. We have had the G8 leaders here and

talked about a new future and a conference that will take place here

in October of this year. This ties in with that. What is wrong with a

fast track approach to planning decisions in economically

significant areas. More and more there is a fast track approach to

planning in Northern Ireland. More and people people are recognising

that. Look at John Lewis...It is also the case that unther the law at

the moment -- under the law at the moment we can have special planning

zones, why would FM and DFM beat their chest about them becoming the

planning authority when they don't have the legal authority or the ka

pas difficult I want to get -- capacity to do it. What they would

argue and they're not here, but we have Peter Weir, what they would say

is they want to make sure there is no at repeat of the slow de-Igs --

decision making process that surrounded the John Lewis

application at Sprucefield. That is the something I inherited. There was

a lot of delay in the planning system. What I have done and what I

think others can do in the future is ensure that planning is fit for

purpose and John Lewis is a case in point, as is Runkerry. Let's not

give authority to those who don't have is competence to do the job and

have demonstrated, be it on a shared future or the functions that they

now have they sometimes fall flat on their face. This is bad policy, bad

politics and in a situation where we are getting planning better. How do

you think they can't do this? This is democracy at work, this is the

cut and thrust of politics at Stormont F they get a majority in

the House, they will get it through. And they will get a majority,

because between them Sinn Fein and the DUP can do that. Democracy can

come up with bad law and can express bad politics. The issue is that for

example in one of their amendments tabled by the DUP on behalf of Peter

Robinson and Martin McGuinness, it is mainly Peter Robinson. He is not

here to defend himself, but he is the First Minister, it is being done

in the name of his party and Sinn Fein. Whether you like it or not, it

is a Sinn Fein o'/DUP amendment. Yes, butt #i9 is being driven by the

DUP and Peter Robinson. Meys Most things are driven by the DUP. Under

European law and thankfully we are still members of the European Union,

there are certain areas in the North that are designated when you come to

applications, you have to go through certain procedures. This law

proposes you don't do that. That is bad law and hostile to European

requirements. You don't like it, because it exposes you as a puppet

in the Executive. They can pull your strings. You know, that is the

reality. I make one judgment, are they in government, are they in

power. I would like to think I for one around the Executive table has

demonstrated a difference. The problem is that you can end up with

politicians in power who have bad policy and bad politics as part of

their story. That will be bad for Northern Ireland and the economic

aye hope the DUP and Sinn Fein think again. Stay us with. I want to hear

more for you. Peter Weir has proposed the amendments for the DUP

and Anna Lo chairs the Environment Committee at Stormont. Fear Weir --

Peter Weir, he says it has been driven by the DUP and Peter

Robinson? It has been driven by both. We are seeing a knee-jerk

reaction. This is adding to what is there. If Northern Ireland is going

to show a signal that it is open for business, it will need every

economic tool. Without taking power from the minister. We are not

creating a new planning authority, we are enabling the authority to

make application for economically significant planning zones. The work

will Gou through planning service -- go through planning service and at

the end it requires the approval of the planning service or the

Assembly. So you know, Alex is wrong in relation to that. He mentioned

about the European law, but within the amendments we have put in

provision that in terms of judiciary review that any planning decision is

still challengeable on the ground of breach of European law. That side is

protected. This is about trying to give the maximum amount of economic

too manies to Northern Ireland. We have an investment conference coming

up. If we're saying we are ambitious for investment and jobs. But other

people see it as you being ambitious for you. Sinn Fein and the DUP being

ambitious for their own parties. we are ambitious for the people of

Northern Ireland. The biggest challenge is the economy and lack of

investment, lack of jobs. We are making no apology for ambition in

trying to grasp every aspect we can. We want to use the current system

and add to it where necessary. I don't see a great deal wrong with

that. The minister sees a great deal wrong with it. Well he is having his

nose put out of joint. Do you have no sympathy with that? I'm sure if I

was a minister and saw a role for the Executive to hold in my

department, tinge reaction -- I think the reaction is natural. But

it is not looking at the wider issues. And a lot of parties such as

the Alliance Party, they will be, they will talk the talk about

supporting the economy, but when it comes to taking action to Su fort

economy, they are not prepared to do that. Let's hear from Anna Lo. You a

chair the environment Committee, you're not happy with the proposals

being put forward. Why not? Absolutely no. This if it goes

through it is very bad law. I don't always see eye to eye with the

minister, particularly on Runkerry. But I support the minister this time

and it is setting a very bad precedent of taking away power. This

is really power-grabbing. This is taking power. Any proposal can only

take effect if it is endorsed by the DOE or the Assembly as in relation

to any application, it will have to have that approval. How is it taking

power away? No ministers now outside of DUP and Sinn Fein should feel

safe and nowhere in Northern Ireland will be safe when this planning

amendments go through. If and when they go through. What needs to

happen tomorrow? Alex Attwood said he doesn't think they can go

through. Do you think they can? I am asking the minister to postpone for

this for us to look at it. The committee of the environment has not

scrutinised this. This is our role to scrutinise planning role to see

that we also talk to our stake holders and ask for their view.

Dropping this like a bombshell on the Friday morning, to let us know,

it not right. I have been open with my colleagues in the committee that

I oppose the clauses two and six, they haven't the courtesy to tell us

that they have have been working on this. The alliance put down eleven

amendment, most haven't been discussed. But not as dramatic as

those put forward by yourself. the esigned to put two fingers up to

the Runkerry development. Let's not get into that. Minister, there is a

clear plea from the chair of the environment Committee, that you not

bring this to the House tomorrow. That is one way of trying to deal

with it. So everyone gets a chance to draw breath at look at the

implications of the proposals. DUP/Sinn Fein amendments are about

bad law and bad politics. If somebody tomorrow should not move

amendments understand it should be the DUP and Sinn Fein. Because they

have created the problems. They can't move amendments if you don't

move the main body of the legislation. The authorities of the

Northern Ireland Assembly, which has been diminished by the way this has

been handled, I'm not going to say to the people of Northern Ireland,

let's abandon the law, let's abandon politics, because of the conduct of

others. This is the fundamental point, the DUP and Sinn Fein for

four and five years have had responsibility for the office of

first and deputy First Minister and stumbled around. You have made that

point. Why would you want to give to those who have stumbled around on a

range of issues more responsibility to stumble around planning? What do

you do tomorrow, will you ignore the call from Anna Lo to draw breath and

think about it again, will you move the motion tomorrow? I intend to

move the bill tomorrow. Which is my responsibility as a minister further

to the committee stage of the bill. Even though you're not happy and you

know what is coming down the tracks? Yes, it may be as weight of numbers

as often happens is greater than the weight of argument. Maybe that will

happen again. If that were to happen, I would make one guess and

that is that this law will be challenged all the way to the

Supreme Court if not beyond on the basis that you cannot do what they

are proposing to do under the Northern Ireland Act and around

European convention. You will see them in court, that is what you're

saying? Somebody will see them in court if they don't pull back and

let good argument prevail and good planning prevail, the way it has

been in the last two years. Peter Weir, what are the chances of that

happening? I don't think that challenge would be successful. We

have made provision where any application is incompatible with

European law, it can be challenged. We will move our amendments, because

we want to see investment and all the tools that can be there to bring

jobs. Although there has been no proper consultation. That is the

same with every amendment that has been put and that is the nature of

consideration stage. Its not as dra mat yibgt as your -- dramatic as

your amendments. Others have put forward amendments that have not

gone forward. It is there to make law. This is the point. First, the

First Minister says he won't take your advice. I think we will have a

debate on Monday. Nobody would say that they do not support economic

development. But we are not going to give developers blank cheques. We

need sustainable development. need to leave it there. We will hear

more about this in the days and weeks ahead. Thank you all very much

indeed. For two days this week Northern Ireland was the focus of

international attention for the G8 summit. From President Obama's

speech in Belfast to David Cameron's early morning dip in Lough Erne,

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here's a look back at some of those Davidson and Jim Flanagan. Let's

talk about planning first. Clearly there is a row brewing in the

Assembly tomorrow one would imagine. Fouled FFDFM be trying to muscle in

on the Environment Minister? there are issues around planning and

they have been rehearsed for years, I have been involved in a number of

thing, such as an insit rater in my area. -- incinerator. One thing that

come out of the row, the biggest deficit is for ordinary people who

don't have the resources to be able to appeal anything. The problem is

there is no overview for what guidance there is for developers or

communities. So this kind of debate about how will take control over an

ultimate decision is for me a way from where ordinary people are. They

will want to watch a debate that has nothing do with them. Do you have

any sympathy for the minister, he is feeling bruised at the possibility

of the First Minister and deputy First Minister taking decisions over

his head. Some may say fair enough. The whole debate shows the

difficulties when you have five-party coalition government. We

have three parties all disagreeing with the way ahead. I will predict

it will all end up in the court. Because there doesn't appear to be a

meeting of minds. The sooner the question of planning is devolved to

the new super councils in 2015 and local people will take decisions,

the sooner the better that happens. The last thing people would want is

for the this to get mired in the courts again. That is what often

happens with planning. That is where it will always end up, because

people have a right to their opinion and a right to be able to express

what they want in their own backyard. But you have to give

people that opportunity and you have to have clarity in where they are

going. If its not one First Minister and it is go to another #2k79, there

is no -- department, there is no sclarty. It -- clarity. Anna Lo's

point that no other minister other than a DUP or Sinn Fein minister can

feel safe is the biggest message from this. Thank I yochlt Now for a

look back at what proved to be one of the more entertaining weeks in

political life here with Stephen Walker. -- thank you now for a look

at what proved to be one of the more entertaining weeks in political life

with Stephen Walker. As for how to prepare for a hard day's

negotiatation, I can recommend a swim in the Loch. In Belfast the

president and the first lady took centre stage. To those who take the

path of peace, I promise you, the United States will support you every

step of the way, we will always be a wind at your back. Similary Wilson

and Gerry Adams got up close and personal. We get with the guy with

no talent on the football field goes and kicks everyone. I have been on

the pitch longer than you. Japanese company said they would

create 400 job, but one minister was asked to fund a flute band.

haven't any money on me, but... Stephen Walker reporting. A few

final thoughts. Jim Flanagan, your thoughts on G8, as successful as we

might have expected. Yes it is only good that we are here. The new

teenager stole the show and took the spotlight from the world leaders,

her speech was positive and talking to want to live for the future was a

powerful message. So I predict she will be at the White House next

March. What about the legacy, we have got this G8 economic investment

conference in October. A thought on that? I think this a positive and we

need to get behind, whether you're in the business community or