10/02/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

And coming up on Sunday politics in that Northern Ireland...

Basil McPhail and being found guilty of indiscipline. Three MEPs

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2465 seconds

on the latest Brussels budget. Join Welcome to Sunday politics in

Northern Ireland. As a McGhee was found guilty of two counts of and

disciplined. Is everything rosy indeed DUP garden?

After more than 24 hours of gruelling budget talks, EU leaders

have agreed a compromise deal. David Cameron might be happy that

spending might be reduced. It looks like the EU peace programme budget

for Northern Ireland will be cut by 75 million euros. I will be talking

to our three local MEPs. Joining me with insights into the state of

Europe by am joined by eight Nick Lagan Valley MLA Basil McCrae has

been found guilty of indiscipline by an Ulster Unionist Party

committee and given them a formal warning. He spoke out last week

against party policy. The two complaints against him were upheld,

so does the decision to give them a slap on the wrist rather than expel

him mean an end to the matter? He is with us now, thank you for

joining us. You must be disappointed he did not throw the

book at you? I am disappointed they did not find

in my favour. A spokes on party policy, I did not attack anybody

come at I acted in the best interests of the party and I

provided them with lots of detail on the record to see this was what

was said, so why am at a loss to how they have come to that

conclusion. They handed out the most lenient punishment available

to them. The fine you guilty but gave you a formal warning. Has that

row fitted you? A lot of people said that you wanted to be made a

martyr. If you'd -- they had thrown you out of the party you could have

moved on. I do not know what a formal warning

implies. Does that mean I am only slightly guilty or that I was not

guilty at all of there are other issues? The you are absolutely

guilty, they are clear about that. The I don't understand the

conclusions, you were guilty but we're not going to throw the book

at you. This seems strange. My ultimate responsibility is to the

electorate. The people that put me into power, the people that Ford

for me... What exposition of the party's

position do you have at this stage? Have they gone through it point by

point in great detail? One of the really disappointing

things about this process is that I have had no detail about the way

they are thinking. You would have thought a party that has been

around for 100 years with lots of experience in disciplinary

procedures would have a better procedure than this.

This is what I have. This is one page, handwritten. This is the

investigative report, all there is. There is nothing else. That is not

the finding, is it? No Mac, that is the investigative

reporter that decides whether I have a case to answer or not. It is

half a page of A4 paper, handwritten. It provides no detail,

and until they are able to explain to me and the public what is going

on, then I have to say I still think I have a good case. Do you

dispute the findings? You still maintain that the evidence you gave

points to one conclusion only, that they were not guilty of the two

charges you were facing? That is correct. It is not a matter of

opinion, this is fact. This is tram scripted. You can beat this. With

respect, you're the defendant, not the judge. You are standing in the

dock, the judges, your fellow party members, listens to the evidence

and looked at the facts, and they made a ruling that you may not like

but it disagrees with your point of view.

I do not understand how they have reached their conclusions. Also,

they seem to have something of a problem in this regard. There is a

pattern emerging about dealing with disciplinary procedures. The number

of people that have left the party in the last number of years, we do

not appear to have got this right. A am confused about how they are

thinking, I do not think I have done anything wrong and would stand

by my case. If you still maintain your

innocence and none of us are any the wiser because we have not seen

the details of what precisely you have been charged with and how you

answered those charges, while good do not call their bluff by

publishing the evidence that you say makes you innocent, put it in

the public domain and let voters decide for themselves who is right?

The first thing I am going to do is speak to my local association and

explain to them what is going on, and I will give them all of the

details, the document I have and the charges against me. I am also

of a mind because of the electorate being the ultimate arbiter of need,

that I will publish what I have and invite the party to publish what

they have. I am not an employee, I am an elected representative. The

public have a right to know, I will stand by my case and put it out

there, and I will -- ask them to do the same.

If you publish your side of the story, people will find in your

favour? Do I have been clear to the party,

they asked me to sign a confidentially -- confidentiality

agreement twice and I refused. I intend to tell the electorate and I

will publish it. Will you pull this decision?

I certainly want to address the issue.

-- will you appeal this decision? I reiterate that I have at all

times acted in the best interests of the party...

Are you going to sit down and appealed this or let it go? You

must have a view of the longer term, whether or not Basil McCrae will

remain in the party or not? I will take advice, but I am not

happy with the decision that has come out, and an appeal is

certainly open to me. It is most unfortunate party officers are

making public statements already that seemed to prejudice the case.

The entire process is compromised, and that is part of the problem.

The party has to find a better way of dealing with it and I hope I

will be able to help them deal with that.

We will leave it there for now, thank you for joining us.

We will hear the views of my guests on the state of the Ulster

Unionists shortly, but first, from horse making beefburgers to Adam

and Eve, it is all in the week in He meet and what we eat made

headlines again and it came with a warning.

Those people need to be brought to book by the law.

An Ulster said no group open the police and fire jeans.

Ireland's multi-billion debt deal was hailed by some as a success...

Are Government is on doing the disastrous banking policies that

brought this state to the brink of national bankruptcy.

The road to a united Ireland seemed longer than ever.

It looks like one that will lift the spirits of almost everyone in

this House, because we believed in a United Kingdom and we believe in

Northern Ireland been part of that United Kingdom.

Gay weddings got Westminster's blessing but some could not admit.

A In the Garden of Eden, it was adamant and Steve, it was not Adam

and Eve... It was not Adam and Eve. Stephen Walker reporting. Let's

hear for the former director of communications for the Ulster

Unionist Party, Alex Kane and PR consultant and commentator Nick

Garbutt. Welcome. The long-running sketch -- Sagar of bars, Gray's

this entanglement from the Ulster Unionist Party continues. What did

we learn this morning? At do not think we learned anything new.

It was a classic fudge. They found him guilty. The actually passed the

whole thing over to Nisbet. This will now become a clash of two

miniature titans. The whip is the only one who can give this whip

back. He will have conditions, he will DEC, basil, I will give the

whip back but I want a public admission that you will tour the

line. Battle will not give that. The other thing is they said it was

the most lenient punishment they could give him. It was informed by

the fact that Mike has the whip, but also that Basil intends to

leave the Unionist Party no matter what happens in all of this.

Nick Garbutt did you think Basil McCrae is preparing the way to

depart? I think it is inevitable. I do not think this is doing the

party any good at all. Alex Kane is talking about a fudge, they do not

need fat at the moment. If you look at a good successful party, it has

three key element - great organisation, strong leadership and

discipline and compelling messages people can buy into and support.

Sadly, at the moment, the party does not have any of those.

It is difficult to recover from a situation like this, isn't it?

trouble with the Ulster Unionist Party, they need a number of things,

but they also need a clear sense of direction. The problem is, it is a

party of two haves, three thirds, there is no unity and direction. It

does not matter how good the message or organisation is, if you

cannot knock adored and asked people what he Ulster Unionist

Party believes income unless you can get a clear answer it goes to

the party that has the clearest message.

Hope might make -- Mike Nesbitt react to Basil McCrae saying this

morning that he will put in the public domain information that a

punter will now the public has not seen that he says will underscore

his case and undermine the party? The trouble is, it was interesting

for the first few weeks when you had someone saying he was standing

up for party policy. The general public, the media, they have no

good interest in the mind you shy. Most people have accepted, but will

want to leave the Ulster Unionist Party. -- have no interest in the

minute detail. They may as well just cut it and go.

Nick, you are involved in the motion of crisis management, and we

will come onto that as far as Europe and horsemeat is concerned,

but in terms of the party, what advice would you give? It is hard,

because the smaller our party and weaker our party becomes the less

power and influence you can trade with senior members, and the more

difficult it is to control people. If you were talking about Labour in

opposition, you have all the shadow Cabinet posts, a look for people to

lose if they step out of line. But the Ulster Unionists, there are not

be too many cards for Mike Nesbitt to play. It will be interesting to

see what happens when they go back to Stormont tomorrow. We will be

back with you later in the programme.

Europe has agreed to more funding supporting scores of community

groups here, as well as high- profile projects like the Peace

Bridge across the River Foyle and the planned Conflict Resolution

Centre at the form at Maze Prison. But the Peace IV package has been

reduced to 150 million euros, on the back of the first ever real-

terms cut on the eve -- overall EU budget. I am joined by a All-Star

Unionist Jim Nicholson and the DUP's Diane Dodds, and we're joined

from our Foyle's studio by Sinn Fein's Martina Anderson. Diane

Dodds, first of all, let me ask you about the Budget. It is the first

real terms budget cut as far as the he is concerned in these days of

austerity. Is that the right thing for Europe to be doing? First of

all, I welcome the budget negotiation de Prime Minister came

back with. It is an important message we have to send to the

European Commission that they cannot continue to spend while at

home national budgets and family budgets are under severe

restriction. That is an important message. We also have to recognise,

under the very complex funding formula for the European Union,

between what we pay in and get out, the United Kingdom will continue to

contribute more to the EU with a large structural funds going to

eastern Europe. For as at home, we have to continue to fight for an

adequate share of the Common Agricultural Policy budget, support

our farmers and food industry, which has continued to rise in

times of recession. It is very, very important.

What about the fact that Peace IV has been secured, money for

community groups and some of the project I mentioned. That is

secured, and there was a lot of talk that was not going to be the

case. Yes, it has been reduced by 75

million euros. We are 150 million euros better off than we thought we

would have been three years ago when it looked as if they would

have been no Peace Fund. My friends in Europe ask, how long does it

take to make peace in Northern Ireland? This has been going on

since 1994. It is a good question. The UK, I have to say, in the

events of recent weeks, has brought it back to people saying to us,

what is happening? We thought you were moving on. Why have these

things happening on the streets? Bid you think people resent the

fact they are still paying for something they thought had been

resolved and frankly should have been resolved?

No, I think Europe has been very generous towards Northern Ireland

and understanding, and that is why the fund was brought about all of

those years ago. It has contributed to bringing us to where we are. We

now have to look at the challenge as to where we're going in the

future, and there are still problems, we know that. Because

Europe's Gies has moved towards the east -- Europe's agrees have moved

towards the east, we're not on the screens across BBC World or Sky

News, there are these atrocities happening everywhere no beamed

across the world. Do you take the view that the glass

is half full in that the money is secured, or have empty in that it

is not as great as it has been in the past?

First of all, I fundamentally disagreed with Diane Dodds's

analysis of David Cameron's actions. If it had been up to David Cameron

we would not have had a peace forum. The ministers in the south of

Ireland where the people who picked Peace IV on the table. We also need

to take into account that what happened last week is a bad deal

for Ireland. Agriculture, growth and fisheries is down 47.7 billion

euros. That is going to have a knock-on effect on all of those

parties in Westminster who voted for a cut in the EU budget. They're

going to have to address that between those people here, needing

a single farm paid in -- payments, those people needing the Rural

Development Fund. We do not know the impact of this �47.7 billion --

47.7 billion euros cut. But a we have to live within our budget, in

Ireland, in the UK and in the European Union, as well.

Austerity has kicked in and we cannot keep spending money that we

have -- that we do not have. The contribution from the member-

states amount to 67p per person per day. You pay more for a cup of tea.

The total contribution spread out over a seven-year period, when you

look at the deficit in the USA, it is more for one here and the seven-

year budget for the EU. I think there has been a lot of

scaremongering and unfortunately we are going to see agriculture,

development, fisheries, peace and the cohesion and social funds, the

structural funds, that have also been cut. Regarding peace, we need

to look at what the first and Deputy First Minister would bring

in Brussels last week, showcasing the project that benefit from peace.

22,000 project from 1995 until the present day. At the last round,

900,000 participants. Her baby you respond to that? That

is a very different view from yours. There are others, clearly, within

the European Union, who would share Martina Anderson's analysis?

European Parliament, for example, will continuously vote for budget

rises. It seems to think it lives in a

parallel universe, that what is happening in member states, what is

happening with families is not what happens to them. It will be a

disgrace next session if the European Parliament vote to have a

private vote on whether to support the budget or not. In terms of

peace, it is hugely important that we have got this piece money. This

was by no means certain. This is a result of a huge amount of work at

that has been done since 2009 with the commission, with the committee

in order to secure that. We need to set -- it goes to the real victims

of terrorism and support our young people.

The Quick Word on the horsemeat. I do not know if it is a scandal

order controversy at this stage. We were told it was not a food scare,

but if the day that passes it looked more and more like a food

scare. I think this is becoming a tragedy for the whole food industry.

And there is a big European dimension. Yes, and Europe will

have good deal with this. We have always said you have controlled the

standards of the food we eat and water we drink. Now we do not know

what is going into it. I have set for a long time, there is no such

thing as cheap food. Food costs a lot to produce and people are

cutting corners. If this is criminals, if it is being driven

down by the retailers trying to sell four burgers for a pound, I am

sorry, you cannot get meat as cheap as that.

At how good we sort this problem and it?

When we are told -- we are told that there is a breach in the EU

food labelling laws and that needs sorted. We're also told of the food

is safe to consume, but that is only if the horses themselves have

not had better remain medicine administered. -- veteran any

medicine. -- veterinarian medicine. Our I fear that we're going to get

further news, if we listen to the Secretary of State. We will get

further news on this this week. It is a scandal of mammoth proportions,

but we should differentiate between the traceability systems our

farmers use and quality produced they have in Northern Ireland.

Jim Nicholson, Diane Dodds, Martina Anderson, thank you for joining us.

Let's hear a final thought from Alex Kane and Nick Garbutt.

Can we deal with this food scare? Day by day, this is getting more

worrying for consumers. Yes, and I think they are right, this is a

serious problem. Trust and confidence is what we were trying

to defend. How can you possibly have trust now in what is in that

burka and confidence about how safe it is? We have been told it is a

labelling issue and not a food safety issue, but how do we know

that? Would be these horses come from? We do not know. There has

been evidence of identity theft going on recently. It is also a

problem for Northern Ireland. It is a Europe-wide problem, but it is a

problem for our producers here at. Yes, but what concerns me about

this, all the big suppliers like Tesco, I assumed because they are

the primary be to work they will have checked.

From the main supplier but also from the seven or eight sub-

contractors. That does not seem to have been done. When you are