11/02/2018 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


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11/02/2018

Sarah Smith and Mark Carruthers's guests are Seema Malhotra MP, Daniel Hannan MEP and shadow secretary of state for transport Andy McDonald MP.


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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

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world of politics.

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After all the waiting we're

finally going to hear

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the Prime Minister's vision

for Britain's future relationship

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with the European Union,

but not for another couple of weeks.

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We'll look at what she might say.

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Key to any agreement will be

whether we should bind our customs'

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arrangements closely to the EU,

or strike out on our own.

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We'll speak to leading figures

from both sides of the argument.

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And Labour argue public

ownership of services

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like the railways are

an "economic necessity".

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We'll look at how

the policy could work

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And coming up here -

amid speculation that a Stormont

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deal is getting ever closer,

I'll be talking live

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to the newly elected

president of Sinn Fein,

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Mary-Lou McDonald.

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Join me in half an hour.

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Who needs the Winter Olympics

when there's plenty

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of thrills, spills and potential

wipeouts in the world

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of Westminster.

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And with me today are three experts

who may very well go off piste:

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Tom Newton Dunn from the Sun,

the Guardian's Zoe Williams

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and Iain Martin from the Times.

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So we hear that Theresa May

will finally be giving her

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vision of a Brexit deal

in the next few weeks.

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The news follows Mrs May hosting two

Brexit cabinet meetings this week

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in an attempt to thrash out

the government's

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negotiating position.

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If reports are to be believed

not much was decided,

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and so there will now have to be

a team building session

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at the prime minister's

country residence Chequers.

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Maybe a few trust exercises

will be in order.

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At the moment however we're none

the wiser and the EU's Chief

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Negotiator Michel Barnier seems

less than impressed.

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To start the week the EU chief

negotiator, Michel Barnier,

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made a trip to Downing Street

with Brexit secretary David Davis.

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Pleasantries with the PM,

but the warning was clear.

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Time has come to make choice.

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All week the question was,

are the Cabinet running

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away from making tough

decisions on Brexit?

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As America woke up, the President

took a pop at the

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National Health Service on Twitter.

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But was it all fake news?

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The Health Secretary hit back.

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The Transport Secretary,

Chris Grayling, told the Commons

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that yet again the East Coast

mainline franchise had failed,

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with renationalisation an option.

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While tensions in the

Conservative Party on Brexit

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were on full display.

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One leading Tory Remainer

did not hold back.

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35 hard ideological Brexiteers

who are not Tories.

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It's about time Theresa May stood up

to them and slung them out.

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On Tuesday, deeds and words,

MPs celebrated 100 years since

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some women were given the vote.

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Westminster awash with suffragette

colours purple, green, and white.

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Wednesday and Thursday,

the Brexit War Cabinet settled

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in for crunch talks.

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They were meant to decide

what the end state should look like.

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Breakthrough?

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Not yet.

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Also on Thursday, a leaked EU paper

warned that the UK's single market

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access in the Brexit transition

period could be revoked

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in the event of a dispute.

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Discourteous?

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The Brexit secretary thought so.

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It's not in good faith.

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We think it's unwise

to publish that.

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The week ended as it

began, with more warnings

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from Michel Barnier on Ireland,

the customs union,

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and continuing EU UK disputes.

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If this disagreement persists,

the transition is not a given.

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So, at the end of a busy week why

not let off steam with a glass

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or two of Brexit juice,

that's English sparkling wine

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to you and me, at the annual

Conservative fundraiser the black

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and white ball.

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The highest bid of the night?

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£55,000 to spend a day with the PM.

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We could not afford to get her on to

this programme but we will talk to

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our panel of experts to find out

what is going on behind the

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headlines. Iain Martin, by now we

thought we would know more about the

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government's final negotiating

position. We had two Brexit

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subcommittee meetings this week.

They were meant to come to a

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conclusion I thought. Are we any

further forward?

No. It is possible

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this is a cunning baldric style plan

to make Britain look as confused as

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possible.

A very, very cunning plan.

Very cunning. But the chances of

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that are highly unlikely. It seems

the meeting has happened, there was

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discussion, the Prime Minister did

not express an opinion. The Prime

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Minister was more interested in

secrecy and in fear of a leak, but

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it seems there was not much to leak

anyway, because there was not a

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decision. Actually, the UK's closer

to a position than people commonly

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understand, definitely out of the

single market, but on this crucial

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question of the customs union, or a

customs agreement after, there is

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still no decision taken. I think the

feeling at Westminster, people on

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both sides of the argument seems to

be will someone decide, make the

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case and then get stuck into the

talks which lets remember our

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supposed to begin in six or seven

weeks' time.

This Brexit

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subcommittee is split between

Brexiteers and Remainers. The Prime

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Minister sits in the middle we

understand not really expressing a

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view, that is put together for

careful political reasons but it

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cannot continue, can it?

I think the

presentation at the minute cannot

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come to a decision because they have

not done their homework, student

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essay style crisis conclusion and in

the case of David Davis you could

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believe that is true but the main

reason they cannot come together is

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because of an implacable deadlock.

There is no compromise between in

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the customs union or not in the

customs union. One side has to

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vanquish the other. The Remainers

really have to think it would be

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economic suicide to leave the

customs union but they are also

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really aware that this deadlock is

grinding government to halt. It is

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national duty pulling them in two

directions. They will ultimately be

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the ones to say I do not want to cut

the baby in half, you have the baby.

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At some point it will have to go to

the country because it is a stupid

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idea to cut a baby in half expect

what will happen for the Prime

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Minister who will have to make a

decision for the kind Brexit she has

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advocated?

She will do that and the

danger is huge. She will have to get

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off the perch at some point. We have

been sitting in these chairs for 20

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months saying the Prime Minister has

to choose between prioritising

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market access and prioritise and

sovereignty. That is the simple

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case. You may get a bit of both out

of the EU but you will get more of

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one than the other. I think

interestingly, there is a lot of

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movement going on under the surface

which Number Ten are desperate not

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to show any of the machinations of

it because they want to present a

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complete finished article. There is

some sense of consensus growing in

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the Brexit community I am told, not

to sign off on a customs union but

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to sign off on a semi-single market

alignment, soap aligning with all

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the single market rules on

manufactured goods is what I am told

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they are beginning to agree to do,

which they feel they should do

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because British companies will go

ahead and stand by all the EU

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regulations because that is what

they want to continue to sell into

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the EU. There are some members of

the committee who are opposed to

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this. Boris Johnson is the main one.

If they do agree to allow heavily on

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manufactured goods but not on

services, in other words they choose

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what to Jerry picked and can agree

what to cherish pick -- cherry pick,

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but if they choose what to align on

Ben Boris Johnson has do make a

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decision himself.

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decision himself. We could

potentially see some Cabinet

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resignations and I put Boris Johnson

at the head of it in two or three

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weeks' time. That is the root of the

potential compromise.

On services,

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on financial services, there is not

a functioning single market. The

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question comes down to manufactured

goods. A lot of the regulations have

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their origins in global standards,

something like the car industry. Is

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Boris Johnson going to find himself

in a position where he will die in a

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ditch over trying to make the UK

diverged from globally set standards

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on carburettors? It would be an

interesting position if he does.

It

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sounds ridiculous but it also sounds

like the sort of thing he will do.

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We will come back to this later in

the programme.

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As it's still not clear

what the government wants its final

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relationship with the EU will look

like, we thought we'd

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try to help out by looking

in detail at the key dilemma,

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when it comes to working out

a customs arrangement,

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should we hug the EU close,

or break out on our own?

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We've lined up two politicians

from either side of the argument

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and, just for a change,

they'll be asking

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the questions not me.

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So I'm joined by the soon to be

former Conservative MEP and leading

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figure in the Leave campaign

Daniel Hannan and by the former

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Labour frontbencher and supporter

of Open Britain Seema Malhotra.

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Earlier this morning we tossed

a coin to see who would go first.

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Daniel Hannan won and he agreed that

he would go first.

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So here with thoughts

on what our end

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relationship should be.

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90% of the world's economic growth

over the next 15 years will come

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from outside the European Union.

Britain is a maritime nation, linked

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to the world's fastest-growing

economies by language, law, culture

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and kinship. But we cannot sign

trade deals, not while we are in the

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EU's customs union. Staying in the

customs union after we leave, would

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be the worst of all worlds. It would

give Brussels 100% of our trade

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policy with 0% input from us. In

order to take advantage of Brexit,

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we need to set our own regulations.

Sometimes, for reasons of economies

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of scale, we might want to match

what the EU is doing. If we do want

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to keep elements of the single

market, it must be through agreement

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and on a case-by-case basis. In

1980, the states now in the European

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Union counted for 30% of the world's

GDP. Today that figure is 15% and

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falling. Britain needs to raise its

size. Our future bright, our future

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is global.

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Well, Seema and Dan are with me now.

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And just to explain the rules.

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Seema Malhotra has five minutes to

interrogate down.

This week a Tory

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MP said I think the real concern

about the direction of travel when

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it comes to Brexit, we are to real

crunch point and the government has

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not worked out 19 months on what the

endgame is and we need to know. That

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is pretty clear, isn't it? You and

others said Brexit will be easy so

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why is this the case?

Nothing

worthwhile is ever easy. I do not

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accept that the government has not

made it position clear. It made it

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clear in Lancaster House beach and a

series of white papers since. As

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Theresa May says we want to keep

control of our laws, taxes and

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borders. But within that, we want to

have the closest possible

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relationship with the rest of the

EU, compatible with being a

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sovereign country. We want to be its

best friend and ally. We will align

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with other countries but on our own

terms.

Things are not going

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according to plan. You and others

said we will be keeping key

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agencies. David Davis said we would

keep the agencies but now they are

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leaving. The European medicines

agency is heading for Amsterdam, the

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European banking agency will go to

Paris. That is 2000 highly skilled

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jobs being lost from the capital.

Isn't this a high price we are

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paying for certainty?

If you're that

fixated on Eurocrats jobs then you

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there is something wrong with your

priorities. All of the worries we

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had about job losses turned out to

be nonsense. Instead of losing half

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a million, we have gained half a

million. More people are working

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than ever before. I never claimed we

would be keeping these Euro agencies

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in the UK. Of course if you leave

the EU you leave these Euro agencies

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and you no longer have them on our

soil. We will make our own

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regulations.

You are calling these

agencies Eurocrats, these are people

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helping with key sectors of our

economy, scientists, those who are

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experts in finance and other

sectors. I agree that Britain could

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trade more with the world and we

need to, but evidence of leaks from

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the government this week shows that

the impact of free trade deals

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around the world will no way

compensate for the loss of trade

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with the EU which a hard Brexit

would do for the UK. If you don't

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believe me, you can listen to the

words of the Prime Minister who said

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during the referendum we export more

to Ireland than we do to China,

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twice as much to Belgium as we do to

India, it is not realistic to think

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we could replace European trade than

these markets.

We export more to

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Ireland than China, that is our

problem! Which is the better

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long-term growth prospects?

Don't

you agree that there will be an

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impact on British businesses and

families even in the short term and

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isn't it right that you raise that

risk with the British people?

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Obviously we want free and

frictionless trade with the EU and

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the freedom to my trade deals

further of broad. EU does not have a

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trade deal with US, with India and

old friends like Australia, the idea

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that we cannot do trade deals and

bring benefits to this country I

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think is incredibly defeatist. Are

we really saying it is a good idea

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to sell more to Ireland with five

mil in people than to China with

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more than a billion. -- 5 million

people.

Their study after study

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which shows the proximity we have

two nations goes a long way to

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determining our economic links, that

is not just the case for us but for

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countries around the world. Of

course we can do more. We have a

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trade surplus with the US already. I

have spoken to investors from other

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countries who say they want to come

and do more in the UK but the point

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is, part of the reason they do that

is because we have access and they

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have access to the European markets

of 500 million people to sell those

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goods as well. What do you say to

the genuine concerns from Nissan and

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Honda, now even the Japanese

ambassador talking about a challenge

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to the profitability of those

companies in the UK, and the threat

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they may have to leave those

operations and go elsewhere?

They

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made those threats during the

referendum and after the vote was in

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they confirmed that not only were

they staying here but Nissan was

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increasing its productivity and

activity in the UK. I think you

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should look at what they are doing

rather than what they are saying.

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This idea that we are defined by our

geography is an old-fashioned

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18th-century way of looking at

trade. In the modern age where we

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have low freight costs, the Internet

and cheap flights, geographical

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proximity has never mattered less.

We are linked by language, law,

0:17:030:17:09

cultural, legal systems and

accountancy systems to the fastest

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growing con is the planet.

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I would like to ask you, you have

set all your vision for how you

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would like to see our future

relationship with the EU. How

0:17:220:17:25

confident are you the Prime Minister

will outline a clear vision soon and

0:17:250:17:29

it will outline with Ewels?

She's

outlined the broad principles

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already. -- with yours. Fleshing out

issues like how to make the Irish

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border were, how to make the

facilitation of customs work. This

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thing nobody has explained what we

can do in terms of customs is not

0:17:420:17:46

true. The government produced a

lengthy paper talking about how we

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can do things like expand the ...

It's worth noting that both ahead of

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HMR see here and his equivalent in

the Republic of Ireland have said

0:17:580:18:01

there is no need for a Customs

border, that companies can make

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their customs declarations in the

way they make their tax

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declarations. They are now

emphatically not choosing to listen

0:18:100:18:13

to the experts when they say they

don't need a hard order in Ireland.

0:18:130:18:15

Thanks.

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Now it's the turn of Seema

to be grilled but first,

0:18:200:18:23

here's her thoughts on how

our future relationship

0:18:230:18:25

with the EU should look.

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I respect the result of the

referendum. We need to move forward

0:18:260:18:30

to find a deal that protects jobs in

the economy. 43% of all of our trade

0:18:300:18:36

is done with the EU. Staying inside

the customs union gives us tariff

0:18:360:18:42

free trade access to our many new

partners. Issues surrounding

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immigration and sovereignty can be

addressed while staying in the

0:18:460:18:49

customs union and the single market.

But on terms that we negotiate. We

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can also then trade freely with

countries the EU has deals with.

0:18:530:18:59

Deals that we have helped negotiate.

And staying in the customs union is

0:18:590:19:04

key to a solution on Ireland. Our

select committee found that it is

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unclear how we can avoid a hardboard

if we leave the customs union. I

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agree we need reform and greater

controls on the freedom of movement,

0:19:140:19:17

but people did not vote to become

poorer. Let's leave the European

0:19:170:19:21

Union in a way that puts the

prosperity of families and

0:19:210:19:24

businesses first.

0:19:240:19:27

So as before you have five

minutes to give a grilling.

0:19:270:19:29

Off you go.

0:19:290:19:31

Two weeks ago Jeremy Corbyn says

said he was against staying in the

0:19:310:19:36

customs union because it is

protectionist against developing

0:19:360:19:40

countries, do you agree?

It's

important to balance what we do need

0:19:400:19:43

to see change in terms of

international trade and support for

0:19:430:19:47

developing countries. But also to

recognise the contribution that

0:19:470:19:50

being in the customs union and the

European Union has made for our

0:19:500:19:53

prosperity...

Do you agree with

Jeremy Corbyn?

I think that a lot

0:19:530:20:00

has been done to support

development, International

0:20:000:20:03

development...

Forgive me, that's a

different question... We're not

0:20:030:20:06

talking about that, do you agree

that the customs union is

0:20:060:20:10

protectionist against developing

countries?

It can be for those

0:20:100:20:13

countries that are in the customs

union. That's very understood

0:20:130:20:20

economics. It encourages trade

creation and development between

0:20:200:20:25

those countries, but it doesn't

preclude, as has been shown by the

0:20:250:20:30

over 60 trade agreements we have is

a European Union with countries

0:20:300:20:33

around the rolled, from having

strong relationships with other

0:20:330:20:36

countries. That's what I believe. --

countries around the world.

There

0:20:360:20:40

are lots of things we do not produce

ourselves. We have to impose tariffs

0:20:400:20:45

on oranges. In yours and my

constituencies there are not orange

0:20:450:20:50

plantations. Is it a reasonable

thing that to protect Mediterranean

0:20:500:20:55

orange growers we should be

discriminating against producers in

0:20:550:20:58

Africa, the Americas, developing

countries, at a cost our own

0:20:580:21:02

consumers?

I believe what you can do

is negotiate across the world in

0:21:020:21:07

terms of how you encourage greater

free trade and greater ways in which

0:21:070:21:10

we can trade with different nations.

That's what we do also already. We

0:21:100:21:15

had no Norma 's track record in

investing in farmers in Africa...

On

0:21:150:21:20

that point... -- we have had an

enormous track record. That means we

0:21:200:21:25

are giving Brussels total control of

our trade policies but we are no

0:21:250:21:29

longer EU members so we have no

control.

Almost 50% of our trade is

0:21:290:21:33

with the EU. Over 70% of the

companies... Over 70% of companies

0:21:330:21:41

that export to the EU, that is jobs

your constituents and my

0:21:410:21:45

constituents will be dependent on,

over 90% of that being small and

0:21:450:21:49

medium-size enterprises. They

look...

I'm not having much joy

0:21:490:21:53

getting answers to my questions. You

are going off on a tangent. Let me

0:21:530:21:57

have another go.

I'm saying we can

do both and that is what we should

0:21:570:22:02

be doing.

You think leaving the EU

but staying in the customs union so

0:22:020:22:06

Brussels controls 100% of our

0:22:060:22:12

Brussels controls 100% of our trade

but we have zero input... You think

0:22:140:22:15

that gives us more influence in

world trade than taking our own

0:22:150:22:17

voice and vote in the world trade

organisation and be able to do our

0:22:170:22:21

own deals, is that what you are

saying?

When you talk about the WTO

0:22:210:22:25

rules, if you look at the

government's analysis which was an

0:22:250:22:28

average of other studies, it shows

even in the South East if there is a

0:22:280:22:33

withdrawal based on...

I'm going to

have one more go to get an answer

0:22:330:22:36

because you are telling me lots of

interesting things which are nothing

0:22:360:22:38

to do with what I'm asking. Let me

have another go... The highest

0:22:380:22:43

tariffs imposed by the customs union

are on the items that most

0:22:430:22:50

negatively impact people on low

incomes, particularly food,

0:22:500:22:54

clothing, and footwear. They pay a

proportionately higher chunk of

0:22:540:22:58

their weekly Budget on these

commodities, these basic things.

0:22:580:23:00

They are the most badly hit. We are

clobbering poor people in this

0:23:000:23:04

country in order to hurt developing

nations. How can you come as a

0:23:040:23:08

progressive politician with a proud

history of standing up for people

0:23:080:23:12

who are underprivileged, now stand

there and defend a system that

0:23:120:23:16

forces us to give more to wealthy

French farmers than poor African

0:23:160:23:21

farmers, and forces the highest

bills to be paid by the lowest

0:23:210:23:23

income people in Britain?

I will

fundamentally disagree with you. I

0:23:230:23:27

believe being a member of the EU has

been fundamental for our prosperity,

0:23:270:23:32

for families and businesses. What

you fail to highlight is numerous

0:23:320:23:37

studies that show many British

families are worse off as a result

0:23:370:23:42

of us having had the referendum and

now the uncertainty that is

0:23:420:23:46

followed. People have already

suffered. -- that has followed.

You

0:23:460:23:54

are still not answering. Let me have

another crack at this. The countries

0:23:540:23:59

closest to the EU economically. The

countries that have opted to

0:23:590:24:02

parallel or join the single market

Norway, Switzerland, Iceland,

0:24:020:24:07

Liechtenstein, none of them is

interested in joining the customs

0:24:070:24:11

union. Why do you think that is?

They have separate arrangements.

0:24:110:24:15

They have arrangements with each

other. They have ways of resolving

0:24:150:24:19

disputes. It is like a mini European

Union in the way that they work

0:24:190:24:23

together. I believe that we could

consider approaching those countries

0:24:230:24:29

to see whether that would be an

arrangement that could work for

0:24:290:24:31

Britain.

That would mean leaving the

customs union, right?

Potentially

0:24:310:24:37

alongside how we negotiate being in

the customs union. Fundamental for

0:24:370:24:41

peace in Northern Ireland and the

Good Friday Agreement. It's not just

0:24:410:24:44

me saying that, it's the Irish

government, the head of the Irish

0:24:440:24:48

police, and the Irish people.

Time

is up. Thank you for your questions.

0:24:480:24:53

What you are advocating is not

Labour policy. Do you believe you

0:24:530:24:57

will change the mind of Jeremy

Corbyn?

You know there is a debate

0:24:570:25:02

going on in the Labour Party. That

is not unexpected, because as the

0:25:020:25:09

situation changes, as new facts come

to light, as we have to consider

0:25:090:25:13

what life will be like with the end

state post the transition, we will

0:25:130:25:17

have that debate. It is certainly

the case that the range of views

0:25:170:25:21

across the Labour Party are far less

in terms of the spectrum of what's

0:25:210:25:24

going on in the Conservative Party.

The fundamental issue is we have a

0:25:240:25:29

Prime Minister and cabinet that have

no idea about end state. They have

0:25:290:25:33

failed to reach any sort of

agreement after two days away this

0:25:330:25:37

week. And I think it is embarrassing

for us as a nation that 19 months

0:25:370:25:43

after the referendum we are in such

disarray.

Thank you both very much

0:25:430:25:46

for coming in and asking the

questions.

0:25:460:25:49

And those of you in the South

of England will be lucky

0:25:490:25:51

enough to see more of Dan Hannan

as he'll be appearing

0:25:510:25:55

in the Sunday Politics South

in just over ten minutes.

0:25:550:25:56

And you can find

more Brexit analysis

0:25:560:25:58

and explanation on the BBC website,

at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.

0:25:580:26:00

The recent collapse

of Carillion and the ending

0:26:000:26:03

of the East Coast Rail franchise

early has emboldened the

0:26:030:26:05

Labour Party to push its agenda

for renationalising key services

0:26:050:26:07

such as rail, water and energy.

0:26:070:26:09

But that's not all, the party

is looking into supporting local

0:26:090:26:11

economies by helping councils do

things like bringing

0:26:110:26:13

more services in house,

using local small businesses

0:26:130:26:16

where possible and helping to set up

new small scale energy companies.

0:26:160:26:22

So, is the plan workable,

and can it help Labour shed

0:26:220:26:24

the image that more state control

will lead to inefficiency and a lack

0:26:240:26:28

of innovation and investment?

0:26:280:26:29

Elizabeth Glinka has

travelled to Preston,

0:26:290:26:30

a Labour council the party

are championing as a model

0:26:300:26:33

for the future, to find out more.

0:26:330:26:41

When he visited in the 1850s car

Marks said industrial Preston might

0:26:470:26:52

be the staging post for an economic

revolution. It's taken 160 years but

0:26:520:26:56

he may have been onto. -- Karl Marx

said.

Preston described in the press

0:26:560:27:04

as a pilgrimage for London folk.

LAUGHTER

0:27:040:27:10

The Shadow Chancellor just dropping

in this week to heap praise on

0:27:100:27:14

Preston's new locally focused

economic plan. Nowhere is that plan

0:27:140:27:20

more visible than at the city's

trendy undercover market. Traders

0:27:200:27:25

rush to finish their new stalls

ahead of next week's reopening. The

0:27:250:27:30

so-called Preston model borrows

heavily from similar schemes in the

0:27:300:27:34

American rust belt. It installs the

virtues of keeping more services

0:27:340:27:39

in-house using worker let

cooperatives. And when it comes to

0:27:390:27:42

big contracts like the redevelopment

of this beautiful Victorian market,

0:27:420:27:48

they go not to the overextended big

boys like a religion but to smaller,

0:27:480:27:52

local firms, keeping the money in

the area. -- like Carillion but to

0:27:520:28:01

smaller, local firms. Matt Brown, a

local boy motivated by what he saw

0:28:010:28:05

as the continued decline of a once

great city, is behind this.

We came

0:28:050:28:09

to the conclusion that a fightback

we've got to do it ourselves. We

0:28:090:28:13

cannot be dependent on central

government that is cutting back on

0:28:130:28:16

money. The public sector is pretty

much buying locally from local

0:28:160:28:22

suppliers. We are looking to form

cooperatives. We're selling our own

0:28:220:28:26

energy in partnership with other

councils. Pensions are invested

0:28:260:28:30

locally. These alternatives around

the world. In American cities like

0:28:300:28:35

York, Cleveland, and Barcelona,

people are waking up to the fact

0:28:350:28:38

that we have an economy that works

for the top 1%. -- like New York and

0:28:380:28:42

Cleveland. And the rest of us are

basically fighting for the scraps.

0:28:420:28:48

Under the model the council has

spent an additional £4 million

0:28:480:28:52

locally since 2012. It has also

persuaded universities and hospitals

0:28:520:28:58

to redirect their spending towards

local suppliers. And it isn't just

0:28:580:29:02

Preston, a number of other Labour

authorities are trying something

0:29:020:29:04

new.

We have local councils now that

have set up energy companies to

0:29:040:29:10

provide cheaper, renewable energy

foot we have others running bus

0:29:100:29:15

networks. -- cheaper, renewable

energy and we have others running

0:29:150:29:22

bus networks. It is a way of getting

best value for money as well as

0:29:220:29:25

Democratic controlled of services.

Your critics might say this is

0:29:250:29:31

cuddly, cooperative windowdressing

for an agenda which, long-term, is

0:29:310:29:36

about mass renationalisation, which

you think the public would not be

0:29:360:29:39

keen on.

CHUCKLES

0:29:390:29:41

How sceptical people can be. I am a

socialist. We should share our

0:29:410:29:45

wealth. We have councillors going

out to get elected. When they get

0:29:450:29:50

elected they say they will use our

council resources locally and in

0:29:500:29:53

that way we can benefit local

people.

Is it back to the future? It

0:29:530:29:59

was revealed this week the

government may be on the brink of

0:29:590:30:02

renationalising the East Coast

mainline. Labour's frontbencher has

0:30:020:30:06

been clear about its aspiration to

renationalise not just a rail but

0:30:060:30:10

energy, the Post Office, and even

water. This weekend the party held a

0:30:100:30:15

conference to discuss the expansion

of the Preston model, but others

0:30:150:30:18

remain less convinced by its wisdom.

This idea is very popular nowadays,

0:30:180:30:24

both on the political right, people

like Trump promoting it, and on the

0:30:240:30:27

political left. But it is a failure

to understand the benefits of trade.

0:30:270:30:33

The idea you can enrich yourself

with the border. I draw a line

0:30:330:30:39

around an area. And somehow that

will make us better off is magical

0:30:390:30:42

thinking. How you become better off

is through becoming more productive.

0:30:420:30:47

These ideas are tricks for becoming

richer that involve boundaries. It

0:30:470:30:53

is an abiding fantasy, but it is a

fantasy.

The doubters may doubt, but

0:30:530:30:58

in a post-Carillion world labour is

convinced public opinion is pulling

0:30:580:31:02

in its direction.

0:31:020:31:05

Well, to help me to understand

more about Labour's

0:31:050:31:07

plans I'm joined by Labour's Shadow

Transport Secretary Andy McDonald

0:31:070:31:10

who's in Newcastle.

0:31:100:31:14

Good morning, thank you for joining

us.

John McDonnell says the plans to

0:31:140:31:22

re-nationalise energy, water and

rail would cost absolutely nothing.

0:31:220:31:25

That sounds too good to be true.

Explain how it could work?

In terms

0:31:250:31:32

of the rail Wales, it would bring

the railways back into public

0:31:320:31:36

ownership at no cost at all. -- in

terms of the railways. We would

0:31:360:31:42

bring them back once the franchises

expire. That would be considerable

0:31:420:31:49

savings of £1 billion per annum.

Then you will have to find £70

0:31:490:31:53

billion for the water industry,

nearly 40 billion for the National

0:31:530:31:57

Grid, how can that cost nothing?

Because you would be acquiring an

0:31:570:32:05

asset, you would be acquiring an

asset, you would be paying back the

0:32:050:32:11

revenues which you derive over the

businesses over time and you would

0:32:110:32:15

keep the costs down for the

consumer.

So you would be adding to

0:32:150:32:19

the national debt and you would have

to pay interest on that debt which

0:32:190:32:23

you would do out of the revenue you

get from the companies, but you also

0:32:230:32:28

say it will cost less from the

consumers that bills would come

0:32:280:32:30

down.

If you have £30.5 billion of

dividends paid out, if you run

0:32:300:32:39

things on a not-for-profit basis, it

can ensure that customers can get

0:32:390:32:44

the best possible returns.

That

profit might be good for customers

0:32:440:32:47

but it does not sound good for

paying back the interest on the

0:32:470:32:50

loans that you took out for buying

the organisations in the first

0:32:500:32:55

place?

You heard John McDonnell

express the analogy of having a

0:32:550:33:00

mortgage over a property. You have

acquired the assets, you have the

0:33:000:33:04

income derived from renting it out,

it pays the gas it and you have

0:33:040:33:08

still got it. It makes consulate

sent to hold those acids and make

0:33:080:33:12

them work for the benefit of the

citizens.

If interest rates rise,

0:33:120:33:18

after you bought that house and you

are renting it out, it is important

0:33:180:33:23

that costs can derive from the

rental income. We know that rates

0:33:230:33:29

can rise. There is every possibility

that the interest you will be paying

0:33:290:33:33

will not cover the profits and cost?

It is no different to the position

0:33:330:33:38

now. If water companies and energy

companies are financed, they have

0:33:380:33:44

those structures in place, the rate

of interest that they pay on their

0:33:440:33:49

financing is passed through to the

consumer ultimately.

I tell you how

0:33:490:33:54

it is different now, and your system

it would be passed to the taxpayer

0:33:540:33:58

presumably. If any of these

industries started making a loss,

0:33:580:34:03

who picks up the tab for that?

Have

they made a loss since they were

0:34:030:34:08

privatised? They have not, they have

made very great profits.

The reason

0:34:080:34:14

they are giving up the east Coast

franchise is because they have lost

0:34:140:34:20

£200 million.

That shows how the

franchising system is completely and

0:34:200:34:24

utterly flawed and should be

abandoned.

If the government run

0:34:240:34:30

East Coast Mainline lost £2 billion,

who would be on the hook, the

0:34:300:34:35

taxpayer?

When the government last

ran East Coast Mainline they ran it

0:34:350:34:40

at a profit, it brought money into

the Treasury. We have a good history

0:34:400:34:44

of running the railways correctly

and not having this bailout to

0:34:440:34:48

Richard Branson and Brian Souter and

the rest of them or seeing the

0:34:480:34:52

dividends and profits overseas to

the state-owned companies of

0:34:520:34:59

continental Europe. We want to put

an end to that and make sure we run

0:34:590:35:03

our railways for the benefits of the

public.

Let's look at one company,

0:35:030:35:09

Bristol energy which looks like the

kind of company you are advocating.

0:35:090:35:13

It is set up locally and has ethical

behaviour. There are no shareholders

0:35:130:35:19

so nobody is taking a profit out of

it. It has lost 2 million over two

0:35:190:35:23

years and does not expect to be

profitable until 2021. But

0:35:230:35:28

sound like a great deal for the

taxpayer if that is how you're going

0:35:280:35:33

to run the National Grid.

If

0:35:330:35:35

taxpayer if that is how you're going

are recouping the losses and they

0:35:350:35:36

are recouping the losses and they

have the trajectory of growth and

0:35:360:35:38

are recouping the losses and they

greater incomes, they will look at

0:35:380:35:40

that and say to successful.

The

Labour government...

They got tax

0:35:400:35:47

breaks, public capital to set them

breaks, public capital to set them

0:35:470:35:50

up in the first instance, they were

heavily subsidised so they

0:35:500:35:55

up in the first instance, they were

on and enjoy the benefits of private

0:35:550:35:57

enterprise that does not benefit the

consumer or the taxpayer or

0:35:570:36:01

enterprise that does not benefit the

citizens, however you wish

0:36:010:36:02

enterprise that does not benefit the

describe it.

The consumer and the

0:36:020:36:06

taxpayer may be the same person but

0:36:060:36:08

describe it.

The consumer and the

they have a different financial

0:36:080:36:10

they have a different financial

relationship with these companies.

0:36:100:36:12

What comes first, using any profit

or revenue you have used to acquire

0:36:120:36:18

What comes first, using any profit

these assets or cutting bills?

You

0:36:180:36:20

What comes first, using any profit

do both. If you have got that income

0:36:200:36:22

you can use it for those purposes.

you can use it for those purposes.

0:36:220:36:25

Do cut energy bills or do you repay

the debt?

Those who have benefited

0:36:250:36:31

from privatisation of had

0:36:310:36:33

the debt?

Those who have benefited

benefit of not only using that money

0:36:330:36:35

to pay the debt they incurred

0:36:350:36:37

benefit of not only using that money

the assets, they are now using it to

0:36:370:36:38

make dividend payments out to their

shareholders. It clearly can be done

0:36:380:36:43

and we want to be in that position

so it works for the benefit of

0:36:430:36:48

people and not for corporate

entities.

The shareholders are not

0:36:480:36:53

all millionaire individuals. A lot

of this is owned by pension funds to

0:36:530:36:57

which many workers pensions are

held, can you guarantee that you

0:36:570:37:01

will reinforce the Leave reimburse

them at full market value so that

0:37:010:37:10

nobody's pension will lose out?

The

market value is the market value at

0:37:100:37:14

the time these assets are required.

John McDonnell has made it clear

0:37:140:37:19

that they will be acquired at that

rate.

But not for cash, in exchange

0:37:190:37:26

for government bonds?

They are still

in that strong position of having

0:37:260:37:30

the value fully reflected. What is

happening is that not everybody is a

0:37:300:37:35

shareholder. It means there is

greater equity for all of the

0:37:350:37:39

population, not only an narrow

segment of it, surely that has got

0:37:390:37:43

to be for the benefit of everybody.

Thank you for talking to us.

0:37:430:37:48

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:37:480:37:50

Still to come:

0:37:500:37:52

We'll look at the implications

to the charity sector of the latest

0:37:520:37:56

Hello and welcome

to Sunday Politics.

0:37:560:38:00

It's the weekend when the curtain

came down on the extraordinary

0:38:000:38:03

political career of Gerry Adams

as President of Sinn Fein.

0:38:030:38:06

As Mary-Lou McDonald

now takes the stage,

0:38:060:38:08

I'll ask the party's new leader

about the challenges that face her.

0:38:080:38:11

And here with their thoughts on this

big change in republican leadership,

0:38:110:38:15

commentator Chris Donnelly

and Suzanne Breen from

0:38:150:38:17

the Belfast Telegraph.

0:38:170:38:24

So, it's all change at the top

of Sinn Fein with Mary Lou McDonald

0:38:240:38:27

and Michelle O'Neill as President

and Vice-President of Sinn Fein.

0:38:270:38:32

And what a time to take charge -

the possibility of a deal

0:38:320:38:35

at Stormont, the challenge

of winning over more

0:38:350:38:37

voters in the Republic,

and the debate over new abortion

0:38:370:38:39

laws will be dominating their

thoughts over the next few months.

0:38:390:38:43

Mary-Lou McDonald is live

in Dublin - and I'll be

0:38:430:38:46

talking to her in a moment.

0:38:460:38:47

But first, our Dublin Correspondent

Shane Harrison reports

0:38:470:38:49

from the Ard Fheis in south Dublin

yesterday, with a flavour

0:38:490:38:52

of the task that lies ahead.

0:38:520:38:57

It was a rugby weekend in Dublin.

That most middle class of games. But

0:38:570:39:03

few Irish supporters believed Mary

Lou McDonald, a middle-class South

0:39:030:39:08

Dublin woman taking over the

leadership of Sinn Fein would change

0:39:080:39:12

their view of the party.

There is a

lot of history. I think a lot of us

0:39:120:39:17

are not ready to move on yet from

what we remember that Sinn Fein

0:39:170:39:21

stands for.

They are probably better

off with Mary Lou but it is still

0:39:210:39:27

Sinn Fein.

No interest at all in

Sinn Fein.

I am not a follower of

0:39:270:39:33

Sinn Fein so it doesn't matter if it

is a man or woman but I wish well.

0:39:330:39:37

Inside the main hall as Michelle

O'Neill and Marylou McDonald were

0:39:370:39:44

being elected vice president and

president of Sinn Fein some

0:39:440:39:47

delegates believed the advent of

what was jokingly called girl power

0:39:470:39:50

would help the party appealed to new

voters.

Being a young woman I really

0:39:500:39:56

look up to Marylou, I think she is a

great leader and character. I think

0:39:560:40:00

she will bring a lot of freshness,

something we haven't seen.

The Ard

0:40:000:40:05

Fheis was given to understand that

negotiations at Stormont aimed at

0:40:050:40:09

restoring devolution were at a

crucial stage but one former

0:40:090:40:13

minister stressed the importance of

dealing with an Irish Language Act.

0:40:130:40:17

It has to stand alone. We are happy

to have other languages protected

0:40:170:40:22

but the Irish Language Act needs to

serve the needs of the Irish people

0:40:220:40:25

speaking community.

This weekend's

leadership Ard Fheis didn't deal

0:40:250:40:33

with the Republic's abortion

referendum to repeal the eighth

0:40:330:40:37

Amendment to the Constitution that

gives equal rights to life to mother

0:40:370:40:40

and the unborn. Those who self

described as progressive say they

0:40:400:40:45

favour unrestricted access to

abortion for the first 12 weeks of

0:40:450:40:47

pregnancy. While the party supports

repeal that are different views

0:40:470:40:52

about what should happen with regard

to the 12 week suggestion.

I don't

0:40:520:40:58

think we are ready for that yet.

Current Sinn Fein policy goes far

0:40:580:41:02

enough.

Sinn Fein has that

discussion to have and I will hold

0:41:020:41:07

the council until we have

opportunity to properly engage as a

0:41:070:41:12

party as we do in relation to all

policy positions and that is

0:41:120:41:15

something we will be addressing very

shortly.

It is a highly emotive

0:41:150:41:19

issue. I am on the progressive side

of the party but I abide with

0:41:190:41:25

whatever decision the party mix.

Sinn Fein's 2018 Ard Fheis is

0:41:250:41:30

expected to take place within

months. It is then when the party

0:41:300:41:34

will almost certainly come to its

decision on that most controversial

0:41:340:41:39

of subjects, unrestricted access to

abortion during the first 12 weeks.

0:41:390:41:42

Shane Harrison reporting

from yesterday's

0:41:420:41:43

special Ard Fheis in Dublin.

0:41:430:41:44

And joining me now live

from our studio there

0:41:440:41:46

is the new President

of Sinn Fein, Mary-Lou McDonald.

0:41:460:41:48

Hello - and congratulations

on your elevation.

0:41:480:41:55

Thank you so much.

It is great to be

on with you. Your predecessor Gerry

0:41:550:42:03

Adams was in the job of course for

almost 35 years. You described him

0:42:030:42:07

yesterday as your political mentor

and inspirational leader and great

0:42:070:42:10

friend but you also talked about the

need for innovation, fresh thinking,

0:42:100:42:15

bold ideas. Now with the time for

new leadership you said, so where

0:42:150:42:18

are you planning to take Sinn Fein?

I of course paid tribute to Gerry

0:42:180:42:25

and his many long and very

successful years of leadership of

0:42:250:42:28

our party, and I set out yesterday a

sense, a vision and energy to

0:42:280:42:37

advance Sinn Fein to the next level.

We have grown extraordinarily over

0:42:370:42:41

the last number of years, north and

south, we are a national

0:42:410:42:47

organisation. We have national

objectives, not least securing a

0:42:470:42:50

referendum on unity, the building of

a new Ireland. Our politics is very

0:42:500:42:58

expensive, very ambitious and I am

very clear in the years ahead that

0:42:580:43:00

we need to really have a very strong

sense of purpose as we go about the

0:43:000:43:07

business of building relationships

with unionism. Building

0:43:070:43:10

relationships with new communities,

building international understanding

0:43:100:43:14

and support for the changes that are

happening in Ireland, not least with

0:43:140:43:20

the advent or threat of Brexit. So

it is big politics and I was

0:43:200:43:25

encouraging our base to think big

come to be ambitious and not to be

0:43:250:43:30

afraid of innovation just because we

have always done things in a

0:43:300:43:35

particular way, doesn't mean that we

have to forever think or do things

0:43:350:43:38

in that same way, so we have lots of

new members and I want us to really

0:43:380:43:43

harness that energy of newer

members, younger members, a more

0:43:430:43:51

diverse membership. So that it feeds

into the broader politics that isn't

0:43:510:43:57

just the preserve of Sinn Fein, let

me emphasise, around not just

0:43:570:44:02

imagining our talking about a new

Ireland but getting to work and

0:44:020:44:05

making that happen.

But you need to

connect with those voters that Shane

0:44:050:44:12

Harrison was talking to yesterday

and so far it is about to say they

0:44:120:44:14

are not biting, they are not

persuaded with what Sinn Fein is

0:44:140:44:17

offering them so how do you make

that connection?

Well, our mandate

0:44:170:44:22

here in the South, as you call it,

has grown substantially over the

0:44:220:44:29

last number of years. Sinn Fein now

is regarded as one of the big three

0:44:290:44:32

political parties in politics in

this jurisdiction and we are only

0:44:320:44:39

starting. I don't pretend for a

second that we don't have a lot of

0:44:390:44:42

work to do. I don't pretend for a

second that there aren't sections of

0:44:420:44:46

our people and sections of society

that we don't need to reach out to

0:44:460:44:51

to have more contact with, to

convince them that the merit of

0:44:510:44:56

social equality and social justice,

to convince them of the merit of a

0:44:560:45:00

prosperous Ireland but where

prosperity is shared. To convince

0:45:000:45:06

them of the opportunity of new

Ireland. Of as you appreciate I only

0:45:060:45:11

in the 24 hours so I am guessing

you're going to give me a little bit

0:45:110:45:16

more breathing space to actually set

dollar that in train. We are after a

0:45:160:45:20

great start but we have a lot of

work do.

Do you think it will be

0:45:200:45:24

easier for you to connect with those

individuals because you are yourself

0:45:240:45:28

the product of a middle-class home,

very different in terms of your

0:45:280:45:31

background and perhaps your style

from your immediate predecessor?

0:45:310:45:37

Obviously I am different to Gerry in

many ways, generational latecomer

0:45:370:45:41

geographically, gender, all of that,

I bring my own approach and my own

0:45:410:45:49

style and own sense of myself and my

own personality, but whatever way

0:45:490:45:54

you go about this thing in political

life, it is all about people knowing

0:45:540:46:02

you, people having a sense of view,

people having trust in you and also

0:46:020:46:07

having confidence in your policy

platform and finally in your ability

0:46:070:46:12

to deliver on that policy platform.

So I don't underestimate my task for

0:46:120:46:17

a second. I am a great believer in

hard work, and effort, and as I was

0:46:170:46:27

saying yesterday that the Ard Fheis,

some things that are having with

0:46:270:46:30

achieving, it is worth maybe working

for and that is what I am doing I am

0:46:300:46:34

not taking anything for granted but

I think we have a very strong

0:46:340:46:40

progressive, hopeful, mother and

message for modern Ireland and I

0:46:400:46:43

believe that it transcends, we are a

party of working people and social

0:46:430:46:49

justice. I believe the middle

classes have an interest in that as

0:46:490:46:54

well.

We have got a lot to cover

here in a short period of time. I

0:46:540:46:59

will try and keep my questions you

would if you can try and keep your

0:46:590:47:03

answers short as well. The

leadership of Sinn Fein committee of

0:47:030:47:07

the president, Michelle O'Neill is

the vice president, how will you

0:47:070:47:10

divide the responsibility of the

Republic of Ireland and also for

0:47:100:47:13

what is happening at this critical

stage in Northern Ireland at the

0:47:130:47:18

moment? Do you believe that Michelle

O'Neill will be back or will be

0:47:180:47:22

serving as Deputy First Minister in

Northern Ireland sooner rather than

0:47:220:47:24

later? Is a deal imminent in your

view?

I will be back in Belfast

0:47:240:47:29

tomorrow morning. I believe a deal

can be done and we have said

0:47:290:47:36

repeatedly on the public record and

privately that we won the

0:47:360:47:40

institutions to work and we want

genuine grounded power-sharing that

0:47:400:47:45

delivers everybody right across the

community and for that to happen it

0:47:450:47:49

has to be on the basis of mutual

respect. It has to be genuine and

0:47:490:47:54

enthusiastic engagement with

power-sharing and I believe that our

0:47:540:48:00

universe -- unionist friends need to

come with the new dispensation in

0:48:000:48:04

that spirit and that way, we are

certainly willing to do that.

We are

0:48:040:48:09

proud rising comprises well because

you can't have a 10-0 win to the DUP

0:48:090:48:13

were Sinn Fein, do you accept your

idea of an Irish Language Act might

0:48:130:48:17

look a bit different from what you

would like and you make have to go

0:48:170:48:20

back on your previously stated

position that you would go back into

0:48:200:48:23

an Executive with Arlene Foster as

First Minister this side of the RHI

0:48:230:48:29

enquiry, reporting Michelle O'Neill

has been crystal clear about that.

0:48:290:48:33

This isn't a football match so it is

not a case of 10-0 or 5-0 or marking

0:48:330:48:38

up the scoresheet, this is issues

that referred to people's rights,

0:48:380:48:45

the right to marriage equality,

language rights, the issue around a

0:48:450:48:49

Bill of Rights, the issue around

funding for legacy and quests which

0:48:490:48:53

I don't believe anybody, I don't

care which party you are in, you can

0:48:530:48:58

stand over a situation where

families of survivors are left

0:48:580:49:03

decades waiting for something, a

standard norm of an inquest. I think

0:49:030:49:06

that is outrageous. I figured that

they just weary and discussing the

0:49:060:49:10

release of funding for those legacy

inquest.

These are contested issues

0:49:100:49:17

and my point is that across the

board in all of these issues, in

0:49:170:49:20

legacy, Irish Language Act, in who

serves as the DUP First Minister,

0:49:200:49:23

there needs to become the rise and

needs to become arise but going from

0:49:230:49:26

Sinn Fein and from the DUP.

This we

are a party that understand the

0:49:260:49:32

necessity for dialogue and to

accommodate others as well, maybe

0:49:320:49:38

better than others, there is no

issue there. We have said progress

0:49:380:49:43

but I want to make the point back to

you and I think this is where

0:49:430:49:45

politics needs to go, we need to

stop seeing things in those kind of

0:49:450:49:51

polarised sense, a win for me, a

loose preview, at the end of the day

0:49:510:49:57

whatever we are elected from we are

charged with shaping public policies

0:49:570:50:01

and legislation and frameworks that

actually serve a happy life, a

0:50:010:50:06

productive life and the rights of

people. I don't care if there are

0:50:060:50:11

orange or green, I am not willing to

get into Abe political dialogue with

0:50:110:50:15

anybody that is as crude as a win

for me and loss for you, and decided

0:50:150:50:21

the issue of legacy and dealing with

the past very specifically because I

0:50:210:50:24

am very aware of the fact that we

need to start in substantive ways

0:50:240:50:29

demonstrating leadership on these

issues. We are not going to agree on

0:50:290:50:33

the past. We're not going to get a

single shared narrative, so we have

0:50:330:50:38

to have respect for each other.

There are certain things upon we

0:50:380:50:40

have to simply agreed to disagree

and we need to respect each other

0:50:400:50:47

and allow wage of the space to

articulate our politics to remember

0:50:470:50:51

our past, and to move on. The talks

are underway. I think we are now at

0:50:510:50:57

decision time. I think the coming

week has to be decisive. I will be

0:50:570:51:02

up in Belfast alongside Michelle

O'Neill, a woman in whom I have the

0:51:020:51:06

utmost faith and confidence. And we

were together, we are a national

0:51:060:51:12

party, so it is not even a case of

divvying things out. I trust and

0:51:120:51:16

need the support of Michelle and

vice versa. I am believer, I am the

0:51:160:51:21

national leader, but be in no doubt

that Michelle is my wing woman. She

0:51:210:51:25

is absolutely a person of standing

and authority in her own right in

0:51:250:51:31

our party, nationally and deservedly

so.

That is an interesting point.

0:51:310:51:36

This is an issue that has been

talked about appear at the moment,

0:51:360:51:39

what about the senior republican

figures from the North who have been

0:51:390:51:43

influential in determining Sinn Fein

policy in the past, people who are

0:51:430:51:47

from the wider republican family who

aren't elected representatives but

0:51:470:51:51

who are well known to be influential

in the past? Will they still wield

0:51:510:51:55

influence under your leadership or

is this a clear break from the past?

0:51:550:52:02

We have people and influential

people within Sinn Fein at every

0:52:020:52:05

level. Local levels, regionally, we

have a number of people who are

0:52:050:52:11

political thinkers, political

activists, some of them have

0:52:110:52:14

considerable experience, others as I

was saying earlier are newer to the

0:52:140:52:18

party, and everybody brings their

analysis and politics.

But at the

0:52:180:52:22

end of the day will you be calling

the shots?

Yes. For the avoidance of

0:52:220:52:28

doubt, I am the leader of the party

and I will act as leader of the

0:52:280:52:34

party, I am a team player, I believe

in a collaborative effort. But where

0:52:340:52:38

there are calls to be made I will be

making them.

Just a final question

0:52:380:52:43

about abortion which is a hugely

contentious as you at the moment as

0:52:430:52:45

a move towards the referendum on

appealing the eighth Amendment, you

0:52:450:52:49

said you will consult the people and

listen to people, are you going to

0:52:490:52:53

give people a free vote on that

within the Dail in future will there

0:52:530:52:58

be a party policy which may back

abortion in 12 weeks which some of

0:52:580:53:03

your TDs and party membership could

be very uncomfortable about?

You are

0:53:030:53:07

right to say this is a contentious

issue and I absolutely accept that

0:53:070:53:11

it is a matter of private

conscience, but it is also a matter

0:53:110:53:17

of public policy and that is where

the party and where we, those of us

0:53:170:53:20

that are legislators, come into the

frame, it is a bad shaping law and

0:53:200:53:27

policy that protects women's lives

and health and allows doctors and

0:53:270:53:30

medics to actually do their job. You

ask me on the issue of a free vote.

0:53:300:53:35

That is not envisaged, no, and let

me just remind you that on three

0:53:350:53:41

occasions Sinn Fein Ard Fheis Mac

have had motions put them suggesting

0:53:410:53:48

a conscience clause or free vote and

on three occasions the party has

0:53:480:53:52

refused that, not because there are

different views on the party, there

0:53:520:53:56

are very clearly are, but because we

as a political party understand that

0:53:560:53:59

you don't duck the hard issues and

that as the master of Public policy

0:53:590:54:03

you have to have party policy and

leading the front and we trust

0:54:030:54:08

women.

Very interesting to trigger

thoughts. Thank you for talking to

0:54:080:54:12

us. Appreciate your time.

0:54:120:54:16

So, what do my guests

of the day make of that?

0:54:160:54:19

Suzanne Breen, Political Editor

of the Belfast Telegraph,

0:54:190:54:20

and commentator Chris Donnelly

are with me.

0:54:200:54:25

Suzanne, she is no stranger to

television studios and she is only

0:54:250:54:29

in the job 24 hours stopper is a

limit to what she can say and do.

0:54:290:54:33

But what do you think we can expect

from her in the top job?

She is

0:54:330:54:37

clearly a very good media performer.

She is never going to mess up and

0:54:370:54:43

have a car crash interviews during

leadership debates like Gerry Adams

0:54:430:54:47

her predecessor did. She is a woman

who is a great eye for detail and

0:54:470:54:52

policy. I think we can CC is a

people person and in a party

0:54:520:54:55

election playing those skills are

very important. She is good with the

0:54:550:54:58

ordinary man or woman on the street

on the ground will stop in terms of

0:54:580:55:02

will there be a huge difference in

her style of leadership and putting

0:55:020:55:07

the meat on the bones, I don't know.

I think that remains to be seen.

0:55:070:55:11

Certainly no one will ever ask Mary

Lou have you been in the IRA? And it

0:55:110:55:15

makes it easier for Fine Gael or

Fianna Fail to go in to government

0:55:150:55:21

with her after the next election.

She made clear, I am president of

0:55:210:55:26

Sinn Fein and I will call the shots.

What do you think unionists will

0:55:260:55:30

make of her and her apparent

enthusiasm are Stormont by Tom and

0:55:300:55:34

running again, willingness she said

to hold the principles but also

0:55:340:55:36

become almost?

One of the themes in

a speech yesterday, and it was quite

0:55:360:55:43

striking that the incoming Sinn Fein

leader, she pointed out the fact

0:55:430:55:46

that she last year took part in the

British -- reddish Remembrance

0:55:460:55:51

Sunday event in London. She wants to

be seen to respect the unionist

0:55:510:55:53

tradition but she was demanding the

same from unionists. She has been

0:55:530:56:00

coming on to that in her interview,

we won't have a shared narrative

0:56:000:56:03

about the past but what we can do is

respectably agree to disagree and

0:56:030:56:08

that is what she wants to bring

towards engagement with the unionist

0:56:080:56:11

tradition. I think it is quite

interesting, I do see, I think

0:56:110:56:15

within Sinn Fein they know someone

has to take the role that Martin

0:56:150:56:18

McGuinness played as Deputy First

Minister and in terms of our

0:56:180:56:21

preaching to unionist and they think

worse than Michelle O'Neill, Mary

0:56:210:56:23

Lou McDonald would see herself in

taking that role.

She said,

0:56:230:56:32

described Michelle O'Neill as her

wing woman in the north.

She is

0:56:320:56:35

making very clear because she is

heard talk that Mary Lou McDonald

0:56:350:56:41

will be influenced by other forces,

she is setting out that you will be

0:56:410:56:44

the party leader and the one that

takes in people to the party.

Other

0:56:440:56:50

individuals, we will get into

details, but people from the wider

0:56:500:56:54

republican family, people who served

in the IRA in the past two were

0:56:540:56:56

clearly influential alongside Gerry

Adams and Martin McGuinness, is

0:56:560:57:02

their influence waning now under the

leadership of Mary Lou McDonald?

Is

0:57:020:57:05

that what we can expect? I don't

think so. They think their influence

0:57:050:57:10

will only wane when the time is up

and they pass away. While they are

0:57:100:57:15

here think they always will have

enormous clout and I really struggle

0:57:150:57:18

to believe that Mary Lou McDonald,

she says she will be the boss of

0:57:180:57:20

Gerry Adams, will she be the boss of

them? I don't think so.

Interesting.

0:57:200:57:25

Thank you both for now.

0:57:250:57:27

Let's just pause for a moment

for a look back at the political

0:57:270:57:30

week gone past in sixty seconds -

with Stephen Walker.

0:57:300:57:35

Gerry Kelly's car was clamped. Later

he admitted he made a mistake.

It

0:57:350:57:43

was a bad decision. I moved ahead of

it and that was it but that don't

0:57:430:57:49

happen again.

Bolt cutters also

turned up at Westminster as we

0:57:490:57:51

marked 100 years of women getting

the vote.

Things like chaining

0:57:510:57:56

yourself to statues in the building

and they are still captured today.

0:57:560:58:01

Ian Paisley issued a familiar battle

cry when it came to Brexit.

It's

0:58:010:58:06

about time the Government

demonstrated a no surrender attitude

0:58:060:58:08

to the European bureaucrats...

Declan Kearney said it was the IRA

0:58:080:58:16

and Sinn Fein leaderships that

helped to form the civil rights

0:58:160:58:18

movement.

The civil rights movement

when you look at it through the lens

0:58:180:58:23

of historical objectivity had

multiple parents and gave birth to

0:58:230:58:27

many children.

But not everyone

agreed.

The article that Declan

0:58:270:58:33

Kearney wrote is delusional.

0:58:330:58:39

Stephen Walker there.

0:58:410:58:42

And let's have a few final thoughts

from Suzanne and Chris.

0:58:420:58:47

Suzanne, she was very clear about

Stormont, she says she is up for a

0:58:470:58:51

deal.

She does and I will be very

surprised that there isn't a deal

0:58:510:58:54

next week. In the Belfast Telegraph

we broke the story exclusively that

0:58:540:58:59

a deal was imminent and getting a

lot of journalists and commentators

0:58:590:59:02

have been asleep at the wheel on

this one. They have been looking at

0:59:020:59:05

previous talks and thinking this

isn't going to be any different,

0:59:050:59:10

nothing really much has changed. If

you look at the signs at what Arlene

0:59:100:59:18

Foster as saying, Colin Murphy said

at the weekend, really be mood music

0:59:180:59:24

is there. I think there are still

some things to sign off but they

0:59:240:59:28

would be very surprised if there

isn't a substantial movement,

0:59:280:59:33

commentators and journalists and

media outlets have got this wrong

0:59:330:59:35

and are out of touch.

Chris, do you

think that is the case? Certainly a

0:59:350:59:40

deal may be there, but it isn't

signed sealed and delivered and if

0:59:400:59:43

we are to believe everybody that

there was nary a deal in November

0:59:430:59:47

and that fell at the last hurdle.

I

think the difference this time

0:59:470:59:51

because we have seen in the past the

DUP have leaked more favourable

0:59:510:59:54

things and if that was jockey for

position, the difference is from

0:59:540:59:58

Sinn Fein, particularly Colum

Murphy, very positive soundings of

0:59:581:00:02

the weekend, very different language

from him, at a time from Sinn Fein

1:00:021:00:07

over the past 13 months so I would

say at this point it does look more

1:00:071:00:10

like they will be a deal will stop

briefly, comprising terms of the

1:00:101:00:17

Irish Language Act, legacy issues,

Arlene Foster returning as First

1:00:171:00:19

Minister, presumably they will be,

right?

I think I'll will be stunned

1:00:191:00:23

if Arlene Foster does not return as

First Minister. I think Sinn Fein

1:00:231:00:26

will comprise on that issue. There

is no way Arlene Foster won't be

1:00:261:00:30

First Minister from what I hear.

There will be some deal on the Irish

1:00:301:00:33

line would act that allows both

sides to save face so to speak, each

1:00:331:00:38

will be able to sell it as some sort

of victory. In terms of equal

1:00:381:00:41

marriage I think they can will be

kicked down the road on that and

1:00:411:00:45

that the DUP does acknowledge to

Sinn Fein but it doesn't have the

1:00:451:00:48

numbers for a petition of concern

any more.

Compromise isn't

1:00:481:00:53

necessarily a dirty word? Know but I

think people will look very clearly

1:00:531:00:58

at the implementation and what that

will entail.

Thank you. Back to

1:00:581:01:01

Sarah in London.

1:01:011:01:07

Thank you very much and thanks

to all of my guests.

1:01:071:01:10

Welcome back. A few minutes ago we

were talking about plans for

1:01:141:01:20

renationalisation, something which

they think is a good vote winning

1:01:201:01:26

policy in these times. Are they

right?

Nationalisation had a boom in

1:01:261:01:33

popularity. It never went out of

1:01:331:01:36

right?

Nationalisation had a boom in

favour. Since the bailouts of rail

1:01:361:01:38

companies, since the appalling

things which happen

1:01:381:01:41

companies, since the appalling

have to get a train every day, never

1:01:411:01:44

mind just the south-east, it has

been a nightmare and costs are

1:01:441:01:56

been a nightmare and costs are

ratcheting up. Even the water

1:01:561:01:58

companies are not opposing it. I

1:01:581:02:01

ratcheting up. Even the water

think they are pushing at

1:02:011:02:03

ratcheting up. Even the water

door and it is a worthwhile

1:02:031:02:05

ratcheting up. Even the water

for them to do.

John McDonnell

1:02:051:02:09

ratcheting up. Even the water

it can be done at absolutely no cost

1:02:091:02:11

you would have an asset on your

1:02:111:02:16

it can be done at absolutely no cost

government books, is that realistic?

1:02:161:02:19

No, that is the aspect of it. I can

see the political logic. That is

1:02:191:02:24

No, that is the aspect of it. I can

aspect I find most confusing. This

1:02:241:02:30

argument that Parliament rather than

1:02:301:02:32

aspect I find most confusing. This

the market dictates the price

1:02:321:02:33

aspect I find most confusing. This

which the acids is bought, the

1:02:331:02:35

signal is not just people who are in

those industries, the signal list

1:02:351:02:41

signal is not just people who are in

all other investors in just about

1:02:411:02:42

everything else. If you start with

everything else. If you start with

1:02:421:02:45

certain sectors, what will be

nationalised next? The impact that

1:02:451:02:49

certain sectors, what will be

then has on people who are investing

1:02:491:02:50

money in the UK is simply a dawning

money in the UK is simply a dawning

1:02:501:02:54

realisation that what they

1:02:541:02:56

money in the UK is simply a dawning

what they own, what they paid for

1:02:561:02:59

might be stolen or might be

discounted.

Labour were fairly clear

1:02:591:03:03

in their manifesto, they talked

1:03:031:03:06

discounted.

Labour were fairly clear

about the National Grid, water, rail

1:03:061:03:08

discounted.

Labour were fairly clear

and the Royal Mail, nothing else.

As

1:03:081:03:11

someone who has been

1:03:111:03:13

and the Royal Mail, nothing else.

As

attention to what John McDonnell and

1:03:131:03:14

attention to what John McDonnell and

Seamus Milne think, I will take

1:03:141:03:17

Seamus Milne think, I will take

their evidence of what they have

1:03:171:03:19

Seamus Milne think, I will take

written and said over the last 30

1:03:191:03:21

Seamus Milne think, I will take

years rather than what they

1:03:211:03:22

Seamus Milne think, I will take

trying to do now to win an election.

1:03:221:03:25

Seamus Milne think, I will take

I would not try and extrapolate what

1:03:251:03:30

Labour policy would be over what she

must have said, he has only been

1:03:301:03:35

Labour policy would be over what she

their communications guide for a few

1:03:351:03:38

years, before that he was a Guardian

columnist.

I'm judging people on

1:03:381:03:42

years, before that he was a Guardian

their record of what they have said

1:03:421:03:44

years, before that he was a Guardian

to Andrew Marr, what they

1:03:441:03:46

years, before that he was a Guardian

written and what John McDonnell

1:03:461:03:50

years, before that he was a Guardian

argued for. I simply question

1:03:501:03:51

whether we should accept their

guarantees when they are trying to

1:03:511:03:56

bargain their way into power.

Listen, nobody, it is something

1:03:561:04:01

which only happens to this lot of

1:04:011:04:04

Listen, nobody, it is something

Labour leaders, that if people

1:04:041:04:05

cannot critique the policy they

suggest, then critique what they

1:04:051:04:09

perceive to be the nefarious under

1:04:091:04:15

suggest, then critique what they

policy. The truth is, when we talk

1:04:151:04:17

about privatising industries we used

to talk about that, we never talked

1:04:171:04:22

about the outrageous bailouts they

about the outrageous bailouts they

1:04:221:04:24

would need, we never talked

1:04:241:04:26

about the outrageous bailouts they

what they would do to actual

1:04:261:04:27

about the outrageous bailouts they

we just talked about this in terms

1:04:271:04:29

of principle, do you want this

of principle, do you want this

1:04:291:04:33

privatised with efficiency or

nationalised?

There problems with

1:04:331:04:38

some things that now

1:04:381:04:39

nationalised?

There problems with

Thatcher would not say that was the

1:04:391:04:41

Thatcher would not say that was the

original intention. However, she and

1:04:411:04:44

those around her were completely

those around her were completely

1:04:441:04:47

clear and explicit about that

1:04:471:04:48

those around her were completely

were prepared to privatise almost

1:04:481:04:51

everything. They were unambiguous.

The fairest possible reading of the

1:04:511:04:57

way Thatcher went about it is she

1:04:571:05:01

The fairest possible reading of the

did not know how bad it would be.

1:05:011:05:02

She went into privatisation with the

1:05:021:05:04

did not know how bad it would be.

explicit agenda of more British

1:05:041:05:05

people owning shares in

1:05:051:05:07

explicit agenda of more British

and when she went into it, 40% of

1:05:071:05:10

explicit agenda of more British

people own shares, 12 years later

1:05:101:05:14

12% did.

We will need to leave it

12% did.

We will need to leave it

1:05:141:05:16

there and move on.

1:05:161:05:18

The charity Oxfam has said

it was "dismayed by what happened"

1:05:181:05:20

after the accusations of sexual

exploitation by its aid workers

1:05:201:05:23

and now the government has said

it's going to get tough.

1:05:231:05:25

I'm going to afford them the

opportunity to talk to me tomorrow,

1:05:251:05:29

but I'm broke clear, it does not

matter if you have got a

1:05:291:05:33

but I'm broke clear, it does not

whistle-blower hotline, it does not

1:05:331:05:34

whistle-blower hotline, it does not

matter if you have got good

1:05:341:05:38

whistle-blower hotline, it does not

safeguarding practices in place, if

1:05:381:05:38

safeguarding practices in place, if

the moral leadership at the top of

1:05:381:05:40

the moral leadership at the top of

the organisation is

1:05:401:05:43

the moral leadership at the top of

we cannot have you as a partner.

1:05:431:05:46

That was Penny Mordaunt talking

1:05:461:05:49

we cannot have you as a partner.

whom there have been

1:05:491:05:52

we cannot have you as a partner.

this week. This could have

1:05:521:05:53

implications for the aid sector

generally?

Yes, and that is

1:05:531:05:58

implications for the aid sector

Penny Mordaunt said that

1:05:581:06:00

implications for the aid sector

would be put off by the likes of

1:06:001:06:02

implications for the aid sector

giving to Oxfam because they

1:06:021:06:09

giving to Oxfam because they have no

idea where their money is being used

1:06:121:06:13

idea where their money is being used

your good hard earned cash could be

1:06:131:06:17

subsidising Oxfam executives sexual

1:06:171:06:19

your good hard earned cash could be

peccadilloes, at -- abusing the

1:06:191:06:19

people they are supposed to be

helping is not good. Penny Mordaunt

1:06:191:06:31

said we should all have done more.

Where this seems to be going as who

1:06:311:06:35

knew what? Furthermore, who was

happy to cover up what for the

1:06:351:06:41

greater good? If you shine a

greater good? If you shine a

1:06:411:06:44

spotlight on abuse will it kill off

the Holborn I'm concept of

1:06:441:06:47

the Holborn I'm concept of

international aid.

Oxfam does a lot

1:06:471:06:49

of good around the world.

1:06:491:06:52

international aid.

Oxfam does a lot

amounts of good. Why would you want

1:06:521:06:54

international aid.

Oxfam does a lot

to kill off a productive good

1:06:541:06:56

charity because of some horrendous

1:06:561:06:58

to kill off a productive good

abuse going on? The political damage

1:06:581:07:01

to kill off a productive good

for the government and we need to be

1:07:011:07:03

very careful, there are parallels

very careful, there are parallels

1:07:031:07:09

with for example the northern Asian

sexual grooming scandal. How

1:07:091:07:11

with for example the northern Asian

was a blind eye turned to these

1:07:111:07:15

with for example the northern Asian

politically sensitive subject

1:07:151:07:18

with for example the northern Asian

greater good, for

1:07:181:07:20

with for example the northern Asian

harmony, was not damaged? That will

1:07:201:07:21

be huge thing to unpick.

Tom was

talking about the damage

1:07:211:07:29

be huge thing to unpick.

Tom was

who donate to charities but defeat,

1:07:291:07:32

the government, committed huge

amount of

1:07:321:07:39

amount of money --

1:07:391:07:39

amount of money -- DFID. Not

1:07:391:07:41

everyone is happy about this.

1:07:411:07:41

everyone is happy about this.

1:07:411:07:42

everyone is happy about this.

1:07:421:07:43

this be used as a debate about

1:07:431:07:45

international aid?

I think it

1:07:451:07:46

international aid?

I think it

1:07:461:07:47

being used as a way to reopen

debate. It should be remembered that

1:07:471:07:54

sexual predators use

1:07:541:07:57

They used boarding schools, the

church and aid programmes. They use

1:07:571:08:00

places with high vulnerability to

the sexual predators. Notably says

1:08:001:08:05

places with high vulnerability to

let's close down the church. It is

1:08:051:08:07

mistaken to say this is a taint on

the entire aid industry when

1:08:071:08:14

mistaken to say this is a taint on

industry by its nature would attract

1:08:141:08:15

some predatory behaviour. It is much

1:08:151:08:18

industry by its nature would attract

more important to have the

1:08:181:08:19

conversation about how

1:08:191:08:22

more important to have the

institutionally you prevent and deal

1:08:221:08:22

with the predatory behaviour

1:08:221:08:24

institutionally you prevent and deal

than turn a spotlight on the aid

1:08:241:08:26

industry than

1:08:261:08:28

than turn a spotlight on the aid

any aid which is the wrong question

1:08:281:08:30

and has a completely obvious answer,

yes we should.

But if that

1:08:301:08:35

and has a completely obvious answer,

if we extend that level

1:08:351:08:37

and has a completely obvious answer,

understanding to Oxfam

1:08:371:08:43

and has a completely obvious answer,

does good work, why is that not

1:08:431:08:44

extended

1:08:441:08:46

does good work, why is that not

Presidents club a few weeks ago

1:08:461:08:47

which is

1:08:471:08:51

Presidents club a few weeks ago

back?

Iain, the Presidents club,

1:08:511:08:53

there are people

1:08:531:08:55

back?

Iain, the Presidents club,

not using sex workers unlike the

1:08:551:08:57

back?

Iain, the Presidents club,

Presidents club.

There were people

1:08:571:08:59

back?

Iain, the Presidents club,

at that dinner who were not engaged

1:08:591:09:02

back?

Iain, the Presidents club,

in the activity that the FDA

1:09:021:09:05

back?

Iain, the Presidents club,

a few people.

But they

1:09:051:09:06

back?

Iain, the Presidents club,

sitting there in an all male dinner

1:09:061:09:12

-- the FT accused people.

I am not

defending people.

We cannot finish

1:09:121:09:18

the programme without returning to

the programme without returning to

1:09:181:09:20

the topic we are always talking

about and we have always been

1:09:201:09:25

talking about, Brexit.

1:09:251:09:32

talking about, Brexit. We will hear

from some other Cabinet ministers.

1:09:331:09:36

Explain the choreography of the

talks.

The government have come

1:09:361:09:41

under pressure for not saying enough

1:09:411:09:46

talks.

The government have come

about the decisions. Boris Johnson

1:09:461:09:48

made it clear he would make his own

1:09:481:09:50

about the decisions. Boris Johnson

speech on the case for a liberal

1:09:501:09:52

Brexit, whatever that ends up

Brexit, whatever that ends up

1:09:521:09:55

meaning. Now we learn today that it

will not just be Boris, it will be a

1:09:551:10:01

meaning. Now we learn today that it

whole is of other Cabinet ministers

1:10:011:10:03

making a useful contribution

1:10:031:10:06

whole is of other Cabinet ministers

terms of speeches, David Davis,

1:10:061:10:07

David Liddington, Liam Fox and

Theresa May finally at the end of

1:10:071:10:11

Theresa May finally at the end of

this long list.

Not Philip Hammond

1:10:111:10:13

or any of the arch Remainers?

They

don't do Brexit central jobs. You

1:10:131:10:20

expect the Brexit ministers

expect the Brexit ministers

1:10:201:10:22

themselves to do that.

I do not

agree with that at all.

What is

1:10:221:10:27

interesting is, were they

1:10:271:10:29

agree with that at all.

What is

going to do this or has the entirety

1:10:291:10:32

of government, now the dog is being

whacked by the tail, just to make

1:10:321:10:38

of government, now the dog is being

Boris Johnson... They have to give

1:10:381:10:43

him great cover by surrounding him

him great cover by surrounding him

1:10:431:10:46

by others also making speeches.

What

a shocking waste of parliamentary

1:10:461:10:51

by others also making speeches.

What

time this is?

At least we are

1:10:511:10:56

by others also making speeches.

What

hearing from someone.

The pattern

1:10:561:10:57

with speech-making is somebody comes

out and says something and then

1:10:571:11:01

Number Ten immediately slapped

1:11:011:11:04

out and says something and then

down. You cannot listen to the thing

1:11:041:11:04

you think

1:11:041:11:07

down. You cannot listen to the thing

because you have no idea whether it

1:11:071:11:08

will be contradicted the day

1:11:081:11:12

because you have no idea whether it

Like Philip Hammond in Davos where

1:11:121:11:13

he said we would only diverged

1:11:131:11:15

Like Philip Hammond in Davos where

moderately from the EU and then

1:11:151:11:17

Number Ten contradicted him.

And the

Number Ten contradicted him.

And the

1:11:171:11:19

idea that Philip Hammond is not a

key Brexit Minister, the impact of

1:11:191:11:25

this is

1:11:251:11:26

key Brexit Minister, the impact of

he is the Chancellor of the

1:11:261:11:27

Exchequer. Of course he is a Brexit

Minister.

They are quite worried

1:11:271:11:32

about the Remainers and they are

really worried about Jacob Rees-Mogg

1:11:321:11:36

about the Remainers and they are

and the hard Brexit faction who

1:11:361:11:37

and the hard Brexit faction who

could really bring down the Prime

1:11:371:11:39

Minister tomorrow if they wanted to.

And at some point, when the Prime

1:11:391:11:44

And at some point, when the Prime

Minister fleshes out in a

1:11:441:11:47

And at some point, when the Prime

more detail her vision, she cannot

1:11:471:11:48

keep Anna Soubry and Jacob Rees-Mogg

1:11:481:11:54

more detail her vision, she cannot

happy. Both of them have been vocal

1:11:541:11:55

happy. Both of them have been vocal

this week and then the serious

1:11:551:11:56

happy. Both of them have been vocal

problem in the Tory party?

Someone

1:11:561:11:59

will have to compromise at some

1:11:591:12:02

problem in the Tory party?

Someone

point. The hardest Brexiteers have

1:12:021:12:03

to get real and they have to realise

1:12:031:12:05

point. The hardest Brexiteers have

they have most of what they wanted.

1:12:051:12:07

If you said almost two years ago

that the UK would

1:12:071:12:12

If you said almost two years ago

leaving all the key institutions of

1:12:121:12:13

the EU, definitely be leaving the

single market, definitely be

1:12:131:12:17

the EU, definitely be leaving the

the customs union with a grey area

1:12:171:12:19

the EU, definitely be leaving the

at around the customs agreement,

1:12:191:12:20

at around the customs agreement,

that is something that I think a lot

1:12:201:12:24

of pro-Brexit people have accepted

and pocketed as a good result.

But

1:12:241:12:30

the Jacob Rees-Mogg faction of the

party sound very unhappy about the

1:12:301:12:34

direction of travel and

1:12:341:12:37

party sound very unhappy about the

complaining about all sorts of

1:12:371:12:38

things?

But what is difficult to

work out is how much of that is

1:12:381:12:42

people positioning to shift the

1:12:421:12:46

work out is how much of that is

argument within Cabinet, outliers

1:12:461:12:48

argument within Cabinet, outliers

for an argument, so there is not too

1:12:481:12:51

much of a compromise. It is really

all a function of there not

1:12:511:12:56

much of a compromise. It is really

leadership and they're not being

1:12:561:12:58

someone in charge of the process.

This is going to have to be, we have

1:12:581:13:06

to confront this as a

1:13:061:13:08

This is going to have to be, we have

some point and make a

1:13:081:13:10

This is going to have to be, we have

get on with it one way or another.

1:13:101:13:12

Well when they do, I

1:13:121:13:15

get on with it one way or another.

will be here to talk about it.

1:13:151:13:18

That's all for today.

1:13:181:13:19

Parliament's now on recess so I'm

afraid there's no

1:13:191:13:21

Daily or Sunday Politics next week,

however, do join me again a week

1:13:211:13:24

on Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.

1:13:241:13:26

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:261:13:30

Sarah Smith and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Sarah examines Labour's renationalisation plans with shadow transport secretary Andy McDonald, and discusses Brexit with Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan and Labour's Seema Malhotra. The political panel features Tom Newton-Dunn of the Sun, Zoe Williams of the Guardian and commentator Iain Martin.