04/02/2018 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


04/02/2018

Sarah Smith and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Brandon Lewis MP and Jonathan Ashworth MP.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 04/02/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:370:00:39

I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:390:00:42

And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

0:00:420:00:44

on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

0:00:440:00:46

world of politics.

0:00:460:00:48

Theresa May is back

after her trip to China.

0:00:480:00:50

But there's plenty of fire and fury

from within her own party over

0:00:500:00:53

Brexit and her ability to lead.

0:00:530:00:55

The Conservative

chairman joins me live.

0:00:550:00:59

Labour tells demonstrators only

it can save the NHS.

0:00:590:01:02

So, do the party's health

spending plans add up?

0:01:020:01:04

We'll talk to the Shadow

Health Secretary.

0:01:040:01:08

Months on from the sexual harassment

and bullying scandal that

0:01:080:01:10

engulfed Westminster,

we'll be asking what's happened

0:01:100:01:12

to plans for Parliament

to clean up its act.

0:01:120:01:20

And a violent scuffle at a speech

by one Tory MP has been widely

0:01:200:01:24

condemned.

0:01:240:01:25

But is it symptomatic

of a wider problem in politics?

0:01:250:01:29

In London, a Labour council leader

bullied out of power by the left.

0:01:290:01:33

That's the allegation that sparked

a civil war in the party.

0:01:330:01:37

Roundtable talks are

due to get underway

0:01:370:01:39

at Stormont tomorrow,

0:01:390:01:41

but with the Secretary

of State playing down

0:01:410:01:42

the importance of this week,

0:01:420:01:44

I'll be asking the Ulster Unionists,

SDLP and Alliance

0:01:440:01:51

All that coming up in the programme.

0:01:520:01:55

And, as one newspaper speculates

about a 'dream team' being urged

0:01:550:01:57

to take over at Number 10,

we've got our own dream team

0:01:570:02:00

of journalists - Tom Newton Dunn,

Julia Hartley-Brewer,

0:02:000:02:02

and Steve Richards.

0:02:020:02:03

And they've promised not

to plot against me...

0:02:030:02:05

At least until the end of the show.

0:02:050:02:07

So, the Prime Minister

may have been out

0:02:070:02:09

of the country to drum up trade but,

even from 5,000 miles away, it

0:02:090:02:12

must have been hard to ignore

the continuing unrest

0:02:120:02:14

from some in her party,

0:02:140:02:15

and repeated calls to be

clearer about Brexit.

0:02:150:02:19

Theresa May was in China this week,

where she gave President Xi Jinping

0:02:190:02:23

DVDs of Blue Planet as a reminder

of the dangers of plastic pollution.

0:02:230:02:27

Back home, Conservative MPs

gave her some advice on how to lead

0:02:270:02:30

the party and the Government.

0:02:300:02:33

Some advice was offered

to Cabinet ministers

0:02:330:02:35

getting restless on Brexit.

0:02:350:02:37

The best way they can

support her is to take a vow

0:02:370:02:40

of silence on the subject.

0:02:400:02:42

But most was for the

Prime Minister herself.

0:02:420:02:44

Some even aired their

thoughts in public.

0:02:440:02:47

I do think the window is closed

because politics can be

0:02:470:02:49

quite a brutal game.

0:02:490:02:52

When is the Government

going to stand up against the hard

0:02:520:02:55

Brexiteers who mainly

inhabit these benches?

0:02:550:02:59

She does not actually

have a majority for her

0:02:590:03:01

policy in her Cabinet.

0:03:010:03:02

It was advice of a different kind

that hit the Government

0:03:020:03:06

when BuzzFeed published leaked civil

service analysis suggesting that,

0:03:060:03:08

under various off-the-shelf trading

models, the UK would be less well

0:03:080:03:11

off in 15 years than

if we'd stayed in the EU.

0:03:110:03:16

But Brexit Minister Steve Baker

wasn't worried about the forecasts.

0:03:160:03:20

I think that they are always wrong,

and wrong for good reasons.

0:03:200:03:24

The analysis was grist

to the mill for Brexit critics,

0:03:240:03:27

but Theresa May probably didn't

expect one minister to pile in.

0:03:270:03:33

Justice Department's Phillip Lee

said the leaked report couldn't just

0:03:330:03:35

be dismissed and that,

if anywhere near correct,

0:03:350:03:38

it raised a serious question

about current Brexit policy.

0:03:380:03:41

But that's thinking 15 years ahead.

0:03:410:03:45

One former Brexit Minister George

Bridges took aim at the Government

0:03:450:03:47

and the House of Lords for still not

knowing what it wanted.

0:03:470:03:53

All we hear day after day

are conflicting, confusing voices.

0:03:530:03:57

Theresa May returned from China

saying she had secured £9 billion

0:03:570:04:00

of business deals during the trip.

0:04:000:04:03

Local media dubbed her Auntie May,

while International Trade Secretary

0:04:030:04:06

Liam Fox said her middle name

is 'resilience', claiming foreign

0:04:060:04:09

leaders were well aware

of Theresa May's strength.

0:04:090:04:15

You look at the Prime Minister

in a different way than some of,

0:04:150:04:18

let's say, the internal tea room

discussions in the UK do.

0:04:180:04:23

While at home there was speculation

about her ability to lead,

0:04:230:04:26

Auntie May herself was clear.

0:04:260:04:27

I am not a quitter.

0:04:270:04:29

She will be relieved the only

resignation she was offered this

0:04:290:04:32

week was from a minister who'd shown

up late to Parliament.

0:04:320:04:38

I'm thoroughly ashamed

at not being in my place,

0:04:380:04:40

and therefore I shall be

offering my resignation

0:04:400:04:42

to the Prime Minister.

0:04:420:04:43

But with open warfare in her party,

calls to step up her game,

0:04:430:04:47

and a crucial Cabinet meeting

on Brexit within days,

0:04:470:04:49

Theresa May knows she needs to do

something special to ensure the next

0:04:490:04:52

departure isn't hers.

0:04:520:05:00

There is plenty to talk about with

my panel of political insiders. It

0:05:020:05:07

feels like Theresa May's worst week

since last week that she began the

0:05:070:05:12

show but talking about how difficult

it was with fights within the party.

0:05:120:05:17

Is it even worse? It is about the

same. What is interesting, if I can

0:05:170:05:24

put this in some context, I am

working in a project with the Prime

0:05:240:05:31

Minister at the moment. Many Prime

Minister 's worry about being

0:05:310:05:36

deposed but it is rare to happen.

From 1968 Harold Wilson was in

0:05:360:05:41

trouble and he survived another

eight years. I'm not predicting...

0:05:410:05:50

John Major survived until the

general election. This is a constant

0:05:500:05:53

theme in British politics that Prime

Minister 's are rarely deposed at

0:05:530:05:59

the moment I work on the assumption

she will be around for some time to

0:05:590:06:03

come.

It is highly distracting

though. It cannot help with the

0:06:030:06:09

issue of the Government or wrecks it

for that matter.

All of Theresa

0:06:090:06:16

May's woes art of her own making. It

is about showing backbone and spine

0:06:160:06:22

and having a Brexit policy and

sticking with it. I find it

0:06:220:06:25

extraordinary we will have two

meetings with the Brexit War Cabinet

0:06:250:06:30

on Wednesday and Thursday of this

week to decide the Brexit policy.

0:06:300:06:35

She has been in office for a long

time it is a long time since the

0:06:350:06:39

last election. It is a total

travesty of leadership that is going

0:06:390:06:43

on. All of her problems are of her

own making. She could be doing with

0:06:430:06:49

warring factions in her party, the

opposition and all the other

0:06:490:06:52

threats, just to be a strong Prime

Minister. Making it clear to the

0:06:520:06:56

likes of Philip Hammond, you are

doubtful that he should have been

0:06:560:07:01

out a long time ago if she had the

will and strength to do so.

Is it

0:07:010:07:08

not by being ambiguous about her

position on terror, and she has been

0:07:080:07:11

able to remain as leader of the

Conservative Party?

Completely. I

0:07:110:07:18

disagree with Julia and Steve that

there is a third way in all of this.

0:07:180:07:21

I believe all her problems are not

of her own making. Brexit was not of

0:07:210:07:28

her own making. She somehow had to

try to get this through parliament

0:07:280:07:33

where she has no majority, where she

has eight Cabinet split and it is a

0:07:330:07:41

huge problem. The only reason she is

there is because she has not made a

0:07:410:07:45

big decision, she has not got off

the fence she is trying to keep the

0:07:450:07:50

ship together and compromise. As was

said in the brilliant speech in the

0:07:500:07:54

House of Lords, to govern is to

choose. Tony Blair said that this is

0:07:540:07:59

the year of choice. The next six

months will be the six months of

0:07:590:08:03

choices for Theresa May. User needs

to get the choices on Brexit, market

0:08:030:08:09

control, sovereignty, access to

huge, great big decisions. She needs

0:08:090:08:13

to get that past four different

hurdles was achieved to get the

0:08:130:08:23

Cabinet on board among her own MPs

to stay alive and stay in charge

0:08:230:08:25

having made those decisions. Then

she has too persuade the EU to buy

0:08:250:08:28

whatever it is she will sell. I find

it very, very hard indeed to think

0:08:280:08:33

she will get over all four hurdles

by the end of the year. Therefore I

0:08:330:08:37

am afraid I cannot see her as

leading the Tory Party by the end of

0:08:370:08:41

it.

I think it would be risky for

anyone to make any predictions. Can

0:08:410:08:47

I point out that 2018 was not the

year of choice?

2016 was the year of

0:08:470:08:56

choice. I care about what the

British electorate wants. The

0:08:560:09:00

British electorate made their choice

in 2016. Theresa May did not

0:09:000:09:05

increase her majority of the 85% of

people voted for two major parties

0:09:050:09:11

in the Ukip and the other parties

supported Brexit. There is a mandate

0:09:110:09:15

we need to get on and do the will of

the British people.

I completely

0:09:150:09:19

agree with Tom about these hurdles.

They are almost impossible to get

0:09:190:09:23

over. But that would apply to any

Prime Minister. So, you have to ask

0:09:230:09:29

the question, what does it solve? In

the longer term, changing leader

0:09:290:09:33

might give the more electoral

success, who knows? But it does not

0:09:330:09:38

solve getting over those hurdles you

could have Boris Johnson saying,

0:09:380:09:42

Britain can rule the waves. Those

hurdles will still be there.

But a

0:09:420:09:49

Prime Minister who knew more

about... .Mac will come back to this

0:09:490:09:52

later in the programme. In the

meantime we will move on.

0:09:520:09:56

The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd,

has been speaking this morning

0:09:560:09:58

to the Andrew Marr Show,

and she claimed the Cabinet

0:09:580:10:00

isn't as divided over

Brexit as some claim.

0:10:000:10:02

I have a surprise for the

Brexiteers, which is the committee

0:10:020:10:05

that meets in order to help make

these decisions, is meeting, as you

0:10:050:10:08

rightly say, twice this week,

is more united than they think.

0:10:080:10:11

We meet in the committee,

we meet privately for discussions.

0:10:110:10:13

I think we will arrive

at something which suits us all.

0:10:130:10:16

There will be choices to be made

within them but we all want the same

0:10:160:10:19

thing, which is to arrive at a deal

that works for the UK, that

0:10:190:10:23

looks ahead.

0:10:230:10:24

It's not just about protecting trade

behind us, it's about looking ahead

0:10:240:10:27

to what kind of country

we want to be afterwards.

0:10:270:10:29

We all have those

interests at heart.

0:10:290:10:31

And I'm joined now by the chairman

of the Conservative Party,

0:10:310:10:34

Brandon Lewis.

0:10:340:10:38

Thank you for coming in. Amber Rudd

is saying the Cabinet is more united

0:10:380:10:43

than people think. The parties that

he doesn't look that way from some

0:10:430:10:45

of the things they have heard this

week. It is your job to get them on

0:10:450:10:49

the same page in order to make that

happen, do you need to spell out a

0:10:490:10:54

vision of what Brexit will look like

so they can get behind it?

It is

0:10:540:11:02

like what Amber said. The Cabinet is

united behind the Prime Minister to

0:11:020:11:07

make sure we get a good deal for the

European Union.

We are hearing lots

0:11:070:11:12

of noises, complaining. They want to

know more about what the end state

0:11:120:11:20

will be otherwise they will row

more.

Where I disagree is all MPs,

0:11:200:11:27

certainly in the Conservative Party,

are united in seeing we get a good

0:11:270:11:32

deal on leaving the EU for the

United Kingdom.

Bernard Jenkin

0:11:320:11:36

saying we need to end confusion in

government. They are complaining

0:11:360:11:41

about the present uncertainty.

Working out what is the right deal

0:11:410:11:45

for the United Kingdom. In

negotiations we are having with a 27

0:11:450:11:48

partners who want to continue to

trade with in the European Union is

0:11:480:11:52

a very serious and, located piece of

work. We never said this was an easy

0:11:520:11:56

piece of work and it is why there

are meetings of the subcommittee in

0:11:560:12:02

the Cabinet going through the

details. We have the deal, the first

0:12:020:12:07

stage of the deal, before Christmas.

We must look to the next stage which

0:12:070:12:12

is agreeing the situation in the

period of translation after March

0:12:120:12:16

2000 and 19. The ultimate deal that

we want, for people in the United

0:12:160:12:21

Kingdom, after the transition period

as well.

We're all waiting with

0:12:210:12:26

breath. Your backbenchers, whatever

side of the other in they are on the

0:12:260:12:32

desperately want to know what the

end state will look like. After the

0:12:320:12:36

Cabinet subcommittees meet later in

the week, we get more detail?

There

0:12:360:12:41

are a couple of key issues. Within

Brexit we have been very clear.

0:12:410:12:45

We're going to leave the European

Union, and the customs union. We

0:12:450:12:49

want to make sure we can leave the

control of the Borders to the United

0:12:490:12:55

Kingdom, the Government of the

United Kingdom. When I am talking to

0:12:550:12:58

residents, across the country, they

also want to know that the Prime

0:12:580:13:04

Minister is focused on issues that

matter to people every day. They're

0:13:040:13:08

getting good education or housing

opportunities for people. The

0:13:080:13:11

knowledge and confidence there will

be growth in the economy and

0:13:110:13:15

security in the future as well.

It

is hard for the Dublin to get on

0:13:150:13:18

with that whenever such a fight

within the party among backbenchers

0:13:180:13:23

and senior influential people,

coming out and criticising the

0:13:230:13:26

party, criticising the leadership.

Until there is more clarity on

0:13:260:13:31

Brexit you will not be able

0:13:310:13:37

Brexit you will not be able to get

on with the other policies because

0:13:410:13:42

there is such a row in the party.

We

have a range of views, expertise and

0:13:420:13:46

great talent to draw on all stop

people putting their ideas forward.

0:13:460:13:48

Jacob is a really good example of

that. We saw what happened the other

0:13:480:13:51

night with the hard left doing

everything they can to try to stop

0:13:510:13:54

people having their safest we have

to ultimately make decisions about

0:13:540:13:57

what we think is right for the

country in the longer run. -- having

0:13:570:14:05

their say about what we have to

ultimately make decisions about.

Do

0:14:050:14:09

you worry whether there is a hidden

agenda?

My experience has been the

0:14:090:14:19

civil service in this country has

been superb. They work hard in the

0:14:190:14:24

best interests of the Government. It

is their job to give impartial

0:14:240:14:27

views. You think they do? That is

one reason why the world is envious

0:14:270:14:32

of our civil service and rightly so.

Our job as ministers and the

0:14:320:14:36

Government ultimately is to make

decisions on their behalf as you

0:14:360:14:41

give consideration and ultimately we

are the ones who have to make the

0:14:410:14:45

decisions.

Jacob Rees Mogg says they

are fiddling the figures and putting

0:14:450:14:50

out information that is wrong.

As

Amber Rudd herself said, one of the

0:14:500:14:55

most gracious and intelligent people

I know, on this, I slightly

0:14:550:15:02

disagree. Perhaps they are doing. In

the leaked reports, which have not

0:15:020:15:07

been approved and signed off by

ministers, it is about forecasts. It

0:15:070:15:13

does not take into account what the

final negotiation will be nor the

0:15:130:15:16

final decisions let alone the

domestic policy, which we are

0:15:160:15:19

getting on with. Making sure that

people have opportunities and

0:15:190:15:25

businesses can grow.

You mentioned

the scuffle at Jacob Rees Mogg was

0:15:250:15:29

involved in earlier in the week,

some fairly ugly scenes which no one

0:15:290:15:32

wants to see those that you have

plans to tackle intimidation in

0:15:320:15:35

political life?

0:15:350:15:40

We cannot allow the hard left to

create a situation where people feel

0:15:400:15:44

so intimidated they are not prepared

to come forward and have their say.

0:15:440:15:49

What we are seeing, and what we saw

in the report is actually people on

0:15:490:15:54

the left giving horrendous abuse to

people across the political

0:15:540:15:57

spectrum. I do agree, whether

someone's views are at the centre,

0:15:570:16:02

right or left, they should have the

freedom and knowledge they can come

0:16:020:16:06

forward and stand as a candidate. We

are going to change the law to make

0:16:060:16:13

it against the law for people to

intimidate people. But also from the

0:16:130:16:21

Conservative Party point of view,

internally we will have a respect

0:16:210:16:26

pledge that all of our candidates

will sign up to. If they breach that

0:16:260:16:34

cold, we will suspend them.

It's

often Labour politicians who are the

0:16:340:16:41

target of a lot of abuse. It is

Diane Abbott who gets far and away

0:16:410:16:46

the most abuse on Twitter. How can

you be sure these aren't members of

0:16:460:16:51

your own party or your own

supporters who are abusing left-wing

0:16:510:16:56

politicians?

We have to

differentiate. We should be able to

0:16:560:17:00

robust we have our debates. I have

debated with Diane Abbott over her

0:17:000:17:04

inability to get her numbers right

on police numbers. We have seen the

0:17:040:17:12

Shadow Chancellor... However it is

from, it is not acceptable. I will

0:17:120:17:21

deal with that. We need to have

good, clear, freedom of speech,

0:17:210:17:27

robust debate with respect and I

respect the Labour Party to do the

0:17:270:17:30

right thing and condemn what we saw

the other night, and see the

0:17:300:17:36

leadership do the right thing.

There's no evidence it had anything

0:17:360:17:39

to do the Labour Party.

What we do

know is when you have the Shadow

0:17:390:17:45

Chancellor of the country

encouraging abuse of people

0:17:450:17:50

individually...

He denies that. He

says he actually argues against that

0:17:500:17:57

and says he condemned it.

What

anybody can see, anybody can look up

0:17:570:18:05

what John McDonnell said. We have

not seen anyone in the senior

0:18:050:18:09

echelons of the Labour Party do

anything to condemn this kind of

0:18:090:18:12

action or come out and say they will

sign up to a respect pledge but we

0:18:120:18:18

will do that.

Getting back to the

Tory party, it is not just the

0:18:180:18:22

ructions that have erupted this

week, there has been a lot of

0:18:220:18:27

criticism of Theresa May's

leadership, Heidi Allen saying it

0:18:270:18:30

was time to get a grip and lead,

another MP said he had a profound

0:18:300:18:36

fear of Jeremy Corbyn becoming

leader if they don't get their act

0:18:360:18:44

together. It is difficult to manage

a febrile situation in which a large

0:18:440:18:48

number of your MPs don't seem to

want Theresa May to lead the party

0:18:480:18:53

into the next election.

I know Heidi

and Johnnie very well. I have heard

0:18:530:19:03

him be very clear that Theresa May

is the right person to lead the

0:19:030:19:05

country and actually Theresa May as

someone who cares passionately about

0:19:050:19:12

getting fairness in society,

opportunity for people...

Why do

0:19:120:19:16

your own MPs not appear to

understand that?

We should all be

0:19:160:19:21

uniting behind our leader.

Funnily

enough that is what David Lidington

0:19:210:19:28

said on the Andrew Marr Show last

week when he said it was time to

0:19:280:19:31

come together in a spirit of mutual

respect. Will they listen to you

0:19:310:19:36

this week, stop the sniping from the

sidelines?

I have been speaking to

0:19:360:19:42

colleagues and myself, what I get

consistently is they want us to be

0:19:420:19:45

focused on the job we should be

doing. The job I think most of your

0:19:450:19:52

viewers would want us to get on with

is delivering a good Brexit but also

0:19:520:19:57

we have a domestic agenda to

deliver, like supporting the NHS,

0:19:570:20:02

making sure businesses can grow,

people keeping more money in their

0:20:020:20:06

pocket and a country that is growing

and optimistic about its future

0:20:060:20:11

opportunities.

One Conservative

council got itself in trouble this

0:20:110:20:14

week, they run out of money in

Northamptonshire. The leader of the

0:20:140:20:18

council said they had been warning

the Government from about 2014 that

0:20:180:20:23

they couldn't cope with the level of

cuts they were facing. Did you not

0:20:230:20:29

listen to her?

0:20:290:20:36

listen to her?

Across local

government councils hopping -- ... I

0:20:360:20:45

do think there are more efficiencies

that can be found.

In

0:20:450:20:52

Northamptonshire they say they have

actually run out of money.

District

0:20:520:20:56

authorities can look at how they can

do more, about sharing services,

0:20:560:21:00

sharing senior management and saving

substantial amounts of money. I

0:21:000:21:06

would encourage those local

authorities to look at that

0:21:060:21:08

opportunity because it means they

can put more of their time and

0:21:080:21:11

effort and the money they do have is

focusing on giving good first-class

0:21:110:21:16

services.

You are of course going to

allow them to raise council tax, and

0:21:160:21:21

we have had warnings from other Tory

run councils as well saying they are

0:21:210:21:25

running out of money. It is a bit

difficult though isn't it when you

0:21:250:21:30

have prided yourself on low taxes

that many people are likely to see

0:21:300:21:36

pretty big rises in their council

tax.

We have to make difficult

0:21:360:21:43

decisions due to the economic legacy

we inherited. Council tax roughly

0:21:430:21:49

doubled under Labour, I was a

council leader where the party had

0:21:490:21:53

run my counsel at the time with

increases of 16% year-on-year. We

0:21:530:21:57

have brought that back down so we

had the council tax freeze, and I

0:21:570:22:05

would encourage council leaders to

look at how they spend their money.

0:22:050:22:08

But council taxes will be going up,

you reckon?

They will be using the

0:22:080:22:15

ability they have to raise it a few

percent to give good local services.

0:22:150:22:21

People are looking at how efficient

they are, how they are focused on

0:22:210:22:24

their local needs to get good

Conservative governments in May this

0:22:240:22:28

year.

Thank you.

0:22:280:22:30

Yesterday, thousands of people

marched on the rainy

0:22:300:22:32

streets of London to protest

against what organisers described

0:22:320:22:34

as a crisis in NHS funding.

0:22:340:22:35

The Shadow Health Secretary,

Jonathan Ashworth,

0:22:350:22:37

was there and told

the crowds that under Labour

0:22:370:22:39

there would be more money

for the NHS, higher pay for staff,

0:22:390:22:42

and privatisation would end.

0:22:420:22:45

No more PFI hospitals.

0:22:450:22:49

No more Carillion outsourcing,

leaving hospitals dirty and unclean,

0:22:490:22:51

affecting patient safety.

0:22:510:22:59

And we're putting Virgin Care,

and organisations like

0:22:590:23:01

that, on notice today.

0:23:010:23:02

No more suing of the NHS,

no more privatisation.

0:23:020:23:04

Privatisation comes to the end

with a Labour government,

0:23:040:23:06

as we get rid of that Lansley Act

and restore, and indeed reinstate,

0:23:060:23:09

a public National Health Service.

0:23:090:23:17

And Jonathan Ashworth is back

in his constituency in Leicester.

0:23:230:23:25

He joins me from there now.

0:23:250:23:30

Good morning. On that March you were

demanding the NHS get the funding it

0:23:300:23:38

needs but we have been looking back

at Labour's manifesto and you

0:23:380:23:42

weren't really promising very much

more money for the NHS than the Tory

0:23:420:23:46

government says it will deliver.

We

would be putting in an extra £5

0:23:460:23:53

billion into the NHS this year. You

will recall that Simon Stevens, the

0:23:530:23:58

head of the NHS, was asking for an

extra four billion this year. They

0:23:580:24:02

didn't get that in the November

budget but we would put an extra £5

0:24:020:24:07

billion into the NHS this year.

You

were talking about an increase of 2%

0:24:070:24:13

per year, more than this Government

is promising which is 1.2% this

0:24:130:24:19

year, but historically health

spending usually goes up by about 4%

0:24:190:24:24

per year and you were promising half

of that.

Yes, over 62 years it went

0:24:240:24:30

up by 4% but we would be increasing

expenditure quite substantially in

0:24:300:24:33

the NHS in the early years of the

Parliament.

But to an average of 2%

0:24:330:24:39

a year over the Government?

Yes but

we also said we would establish an

0:24:390:24:43

OBR for the health service to advise

government on long-term spending

0:24:430:24:47

needs of the NHS so we would have an

independent body giving us an

0:24:470:24:52

accurate assessment of the

demographic changes, the staffing

0:24:520:24:56

needs of the NHS, which would inform

future spending decisions. In the

0:24:560:25:02

early years of the parliament we

would be spending substantially more

0:25:020:25:05

on the NHS, not just for hospitals

which are overcrowded because we

0:25:050:25:11

have lost 14,500 beds since 2010 but

also more investment in community

0:25:110:25:15

health service.

It's very difficult

for you to give statistics about how

0:25:150:25:21

much trouble the NHS is in when you

were promising a very modest

0:25:210:25:24

increase in spending of 2%. Under

the last Labour government, health

0:25:240:25:29

spending rose by 6% per year, under

Margaret Thatcher's government it

0:25:290:25:35

went up by 3% a year. Your manifesto

pledge was to give the NHS on

0:25:350:25:41

average less money than Margaret

Thatcher did.

But we would be

0:25:410:25:45

allocating £5 billion for the NHS.

You say it is a modest increase, if

0:25:450:25:51

I could say it is substantially more

than this Government is putting into

0:25:510:25:55

the NHS and when you have Simon

Stevens saying the NHS needs four

0:25:550:26:01

billion this year, we were promising

more than that so you say it is

0:26:010:26:04

modest but I suggest it is a

significant level of investment

0:26:040:26:08

which would allow us to get waiting

lists down. They could reach 5

0:26:080:26:13

million under the Government. It

would allow us to deal with

0:26:130:26:17

overcrowded hospitals and allow us

to invest in

0:26:170:26:26

to invest in community health

services, stop the cuts to child and

0:26:270:26:29

adolescent mental health services,

allow us to recruit so we have the

0:26:290:26:31

nurses we need.

That is what you can

buy for £5 billion you say, is

0:26:310:26:43

scrapping tuition fees are better

use of the money?

I'm always going

0:26:430:26:47

to argue for more money for the NHS,

as someone who aspires to be the

0:26:470:26:55

Health Secretary.

And therefore

argue against scrapping tuition

0:26:550:26:59

fees?

The tuition fee pledge was a

promise made by Jeremy Corbyn and

0:26:590:27:09

John McDonnell when Jeremy Corbyn

run for the leadership of the Labour

0:27:090:27:12

Party and proved to be very popular

electorally as a pledge so I can see

0:27:120:27:16

why the Labour Party will be

sticking with that, but I'm always

0:27:160:27:21

going to be making the case for more

money for the NHS. We have seen £6

0:27:210:27:31

billion of cuts and

0:27:310:27:37

billion of cuts and other...

It is

not clear the amount of money

0:27:380:27:41

offered by Labour will be sufficient

to offer their aspirations in social

0:27:410:27:46

care.

I would say it would be.

Across the Parliament we would put

0:27:460:27:54

an extra £8 billion but we know we

have to look at better ways of

0:27:540:27:58

integrating health and social care.

The NHS was created in 1948, social

0:27:580:28:05

care was created as a sister service

but they have never worked together

0:28:050:28:08

as closely as they should. We are

older, with various different

0:28:080:28:15

conditions, we know the social care

system and the NHS will have to work

0:28:150:28:19

more closely together so we would

look at integrating properly health

0:28:190:28:23

and social care but that is a medium

to long-term plan, not something a

0:28:230:28:28

politician can deliver overnight.

It

was made clear at the rally you work

0:28:280:28:33

at yesterday Labour politicians

pledging no more outsourcing in the

0:28:330:28:36

NHS, what does that actually mean?

No more private companies of any

0:28:360:28:41

kind involved in healthcare at all?

What we would want to bring an end

0:28:410:28:46

to is the way in which, because of

the health and social care act from

0:28:460:28:53

for years ago, it means community

health contracts have to always be

0:28:530:28:56

put out to tender. Millions is

wasted, some even say billions

0:28:560:29:03

wasted, on the constant tendering of

contracts. We have just seen a

0:29:030:29:07

children's health contracts go to

virgin care in Lancashire. When

0:29:070:29:12

virgin care didn't win a contract in

Surrey, they forced the NHS to

0:29:120:29:15

settle with them out of court.

Macmillan Cancer Support have one in

0:29:150:29:22

Staffordshire, the Red Cross, St

John's ambulance, they all have

0:29:220:29:25

contracts provided for under the

very act you say you want to repeal.

0:29:250:29:29

You don't want these people involved

in health care delivery?

Macmillan

0:29:290:29:40

nurses have had a role since the

1970s. They complement what the NHS

0:29:400:29:45

offers so we are not talking about

ending the voluntary sector role.

0:29:450:29:49

This isn't just voluntary services.

No, but we are talking about private

0:29:490:29:55

firms where a full contract for

service delivery, say a children's

0:29:550:29:59

health service, is handed over to

virgin, that means the staff are

0:29:590:30:05

handed over, the only way virgin or

whatever that private sector company

0:30:050:30:09

is can make a profit is by cutting

down on terms and conditions. It

0:30:090:30:14

means the staff are often down

branded, knocked down a level in

0:30:140:30:19

terms of their pay, and we don't

believe that delivers the quality of

0:30:190:30:23

care children deserve and that's

what we want to end.

0:30:230:30:34

You talk about the long waiting

lists. Under the last Labour

0:30:370:30:41

government that they came in at a

time in the NHS was and a lot of

0:30:410:30:45

pressure and delivery used private

sector companies to work through the

0:30:450:30:49

backlog of people who were waiting

for operations in order to get the

0:30:490:30:52

waiting lists down quickly. Do you

not think that the NHS as an estate

0:30:520:30:56

now where you may be forced to

consider that?

The NHS has always

0:30:560:31:07

got extra capacity from private

service providers in that

0:31:070:31:10

circumstance. The Labour government

was not handing over the delivery

0:31:100:31:14

lock, stock and barrel for the whole

sort of health contract.

That's the

0:31:140:31:19

difference. But you might still buy

in services. When you say

0:31:190:31:24

outsourcing is finished, it doesn't

mean the whole involvement of

0:31:240:31:32

private companies is finished?

The

NHS will not build its own

0:31:320:31:36

ambulances. We will still buy from

the private sector. Without capacity

0:31:360:31:41

in the NHS we will buy in from the

private sector. If you want to get

0:31:410:31:46

the rescheduled by Easter, if you

wanted to do that, the anyway the

0:31:460:31:49

NHS could do that is by buying in

from the private sector. There is a

0:31:490:31:55

difference between spot buying in

the private sector and handing out a

0:31:550:31:59

complete contract. Take a really in

four example with the cleaning

0:31:590:32:03

contract.

I will have to leave you

on and ask you about Haringey

0:32:030:32:07

Council before we go. Clare Cockburn

was on the Andrew Marr show earlier

0:32:070:32:13

and she has been giving interviews,

talking about bullying within the

0:32:130:32:21

Labour Party and at council

meetings. -- Kober thought she said

0:32:210:32:26

she could not complain to the NEC

because she thought that was in

0:32:260:32:32

itself a problem. That is deeply

worrying, isn't it?

I don't know all

0:32:320:32:38

the ins and outs I have seen what is

in the newspapers but I used to be a

0:32:380:32:42

member of the National Executive

committee until 18 months ago. Clare

0:32:420:32:50

Kober, if there were specific

complaints, they do need to go to

0:32:500:32:54

the NEC and the NEC would look at

that. Various committees would look

0:32:540:32:57

at that very seriously.

You reached

a point when a senior member of the

0:32:570:33:03

party does not trust the NEC to sort

this out because she thinks they are

0:33:030:33:06

part of the problem and not the

answer.

I would say that the NEC, in

0:33:060:33:13

my experience, would look at these

things. The NEC got involved in

0:33:130:33:19

mediation talks. I am not a member

of it anymore but what I understand

0:33:190:33:23

is a substantial number of Labour

councillors in Haringey asked the

0:33:230:33:28

NEC to intervene I don't know the

ins and outs but it is clear there

0:33:280:33:32

are two sides of the story. On

specific allegations where there was

0:33:320:33:37

a meeting in Haringey where there

was anti-Semitic chanting in things

0:33:370:33:41

like that, if those people are

Labour Party members were they need

0:33:410:33:45

to be reported. If people are being

anti-Semitic they will be thrown out

0:33:450:33:49

of the Labour Party, simple as that.

Thank you.

0:33:490:33:52

Allegations of sexual harassment

and bullying rocked Westminster

0:33:520:33:54

when they emerged last autumn.

0:33:540:33:56

By the end of the year,

two Cabinet ministers had resigned

0:33:560:33:58

and several MPs from different

parties had been suspended

0:33:580:34:00

pending investigations.

0:34:000:34:03

The Government promised action,

and announced a cross-party working

0:34:030:34:06

group to decide what it should be.

0:34:060:34:07

But, so far, it hasn't

recommended anything.

0:34:070:34:09

Ellie Price has been finding

out what's going on.

0:34:090:34:11

And, just a warning, her report

includes some flash photography.

0:34:110:34:16

It wasn't parliament's finest hour.

0:34:160:34:19

Revelations of shady goings-on,

of sexual harassment in the Palace's

0:34:190:34:22

bars and back rooms,

of bullying in its offices.

0:34:220:34:26

Of course, the vast majority of MPs

and their staff were not implicated.

0:34:260:34:31

But it was enough that

all the party leaders agreed

0:34:310:34:33

something needed to be done.

0:34:330:34:37

We should not rest until everyone

working in Parliament can feel safe,

0:34:370:34:39

valued and respected.

0:34:390:34:44

We have a chance now to get

this right, for everyone

0:34:440:34:46

on the parliamentary estate.

0:34:460:34:47

Political leaders agreed

to set up a cross-party

0:34:470:34:49

working group in November.

0:34:490:34:52

MPs, peers, and other interested

groups have been working

0:34:520:34:54

on the proposals ever since.

0:34:540:34:57

The Leader of the House had said

she wanted the recommendations to be

0:34:570:35:00

voted on by Parliament

and implemented by

0:35:000:35:02

the end of January.

0:35:020:35:05

But here we are at the beginning

of February and still the report

0:35:050:35:08

hasn't been published.

0:35:080:35:12

before Christmas and then

its scope was widened.

0:35:120:35:14

It was then due to be released

on Thursday but I'm told it

0:35:140:35:18

still needs final sign off

from the party leaders.

0:35:180:35:23

I've been told there is now broad

consensus among members on the group

0:35:230:35:26

that its recommendations

are suitably robust.

0:35:260:35:28

Sources close to the talks told me

there's recommendations are likely

0:35:280:35:32

to include a new independent

grievance procedure for staff,

0:35:320:35:34

consent lessons for MPs,

starting after the next general

0:35:340:35:38

election, a new code of conduct,

and the one most likely

0:35:380:35:42

to grab the headlines,

tougher sanctions, including making

0:35:420:35:45

easier the process to recall -

and potentially fire

0:35:450:35:49

- an MP.

0:35:490:35:51

The current situation is one

where I would face harsher sanctions

0:35:510:35:55

and penalties for being rude

about another MP on the floor

0:35:550:35:58

of the House of Commons

than I would if I were bullying

0:35:580:36:00

or harassing a member of staff.

0:36:000:36:02

I don't think that is a reasonable,

or tenable, situation,

0:36:020:36:06

and I think we need to give staff,

and the general public we work for,

0:36:060:36:09

the confidence that Parliament

is not just abiding by the law

0:36:090:36:12

on employment rights

and workplace rights

0:36:120:36:17

but actually setting a standard.

0:36:170:36:20

A representative from Unite is also

on the working party.

0:36:200:36:23

The union says its members,

who work in Parliament,

0:36:230:36:25

have lost faith in the system.

0:36:250:36:29

Our members don't have confidence

at the moment that there's

0:36:290:36:31

going to be enough change

in Parliament to make

0:36:310:36:33

a difference to the bullying

and harassment culture.

0:36:330:36:37

There needs to be positive

engagement with staff and encourage

0:36:370:36:40

them, and give them confidence that,

if they make a complaint over

0:36:400:36:44

bullying and harassment, that there

will be proper investigation.

0:36:440:36:49

And the working group

has its work cut out.

0:36:490:36:52

As HR experts consulted

during the process point out,

0:36:520:36:55

reforming the existing employment

rules in Parliament

0:36:550:36:58

is not straightforward.

0:36:580:37:02

One of the big challenges,

you've got 650 MPs, who are all

0:37:020:37:05

running their own offices and staff.

0:37:050:37:09

So, effectively, you've got 650

small firms in effect.

0:37:090:37:13

And the extent to which they have

had previous experience in managing

0:37:130:37:17

people, and running businesses,

is probably limited

0:37:170:37:20

in many instances.

0:37:200:37:22

So, that's part of the problem.

0:37:220:37:25

But any overhaul of the system

is unnecessary, says this MP

0:37:250:37:27

who has been in Parliament

for nearly 35 years.

0:37:270:37:32

I think, by and large,

the rules work as they are.

0:37:320:37:34

And, if courtesy and common sense

are applied, there is no need

0:37:340:37:37

for any change at all.

0:37:370:37:40

Yeah, there are bad

apples in the barrel.

0:37:400:37:43

But those bad apples tend to get

weeded out pretty fast.

0:37:430:37:46

And I think we could create,

if we're not careful,

0:37:460:37:50

a whistle-blowers charter,

a witch hunters charter.

0:37:500:37:56

Very difficult for a male of any age

to defend against an allegation.

0:37:560:38:02

I'm told the report will be

published next week,

0:38:020:38:06

possibly on Tuesday,

and MPs will then debate

0:38:060:38:09

it in the Commons.

0:38:090:38:11

But it may not satisfy everyone that

it's exactly what's required to put

0:38:110:38:15

this House in order.

0:38:150:38:23

It's coming up to 11:40am.

0:38:230:38:24

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:240:38:27

Coming up on the programme,

we'll be talking about the violent

0:38:270:38:29

scenes after protestors interrupted

a speech by the Conservative

0:38:290:38:31

MP Jacob Rees Mogg, and plenty more.

0:38:310:38:33

First though, it's time for

the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:38:330:38:41

In new or her

0:38:430:38:48

Hello or her and welcome to

Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

0:38:480:38:51

It's a big week ahead

with roundtable talks planned

0:38:510:38:53

for Stormont and pressure mounting

for a budget decision.

0:38:530:38:56

So what will the SDLP, Alliance

and Ulster Unionists be bringing

0:38:560:38:59

to the table tomorrow?

0:38:590:39:01

And what happens next if it proves

impossible to bring devolution back?

0:39:010:39:05

And joining me with their

thoughts throughout

0:39:050:39:06

the programme are columnist

Brian Feeney

0:39:060:39:09

and journalist

Amanda Ferguson.

0:39:090:39:16

But first today, Sinn Fein's Gerry

Kelly has found himself

0:39:160:39:18

in the middle of a police

investigation after he was filmed

0:39:180:39:21

removing a clamp from

the wheel of his car.

0:39:210:39:24

A video of Mr Kelly circulated

on social media yesterday

0:39:240:39:27

and the police say they're

investigating a report

0:39:270:39:29

of criminal damage in

the Cathedral Quarter of Belfast.

0:39:290:39:32

A Sinn Fein statement acknowledged

Gerry Kelly had removed the clamp

0:39:320:39:36

and that his solicitor is dealing

with the matter.

0:39:360:39:38

So is this another

embarrassment for the party?

0:39:380:39:41

Brian and Amanda, social media

is awash with the footage.

0:39:410:39:44

What do you make of it?

0:39:440:39:51

yes, I hardly think it is an

embarrassment for the party. Gerry

0:39:510:40:01

Kelly has done a number of

controversial things but we don't

0:40:010:40:04

know the details yet. It is possible

that it is one of those occasions

0:40:040:40:08

where it is something that is very

small, you don't see that you are

0:40:080:40:14

going to be clamped and you don't

know what time of day it was either,

0:40:140:40:19

whether it was early morning or

afternoon so I expect it will end up

0:40:190:40:23

that he will have to pay the cost of

the clamp.

It seems to indicate that

0:40:230:40:31

it happened early in the morning

after a gym session. It was dark.

0:40:310:40:42

Yes, I think there will be lots of

questions and it wasn't what I was

0:40:430:40:49

expecting to be writing about last

night. It is just another one of

0:40:490:40:52

those stories that brings attention

to the unique circumstances of

0:40:520:40:59

northern Ireland and its politics.

We will see how it pans out.

We are

0:40:590:41:07

assuming it was some sort of by the

contract of the clamped him.

0:41:070:41:17

contract of the clamped him. There

are clearly other politicians who

0:41:170:41:19

have been expressing their annoyance

and outrage about what happened.

I

0:41:190:41:26

have no doubt that a complaint will

be put into the assembly and they

0:41:260:41:32

will investigate what Gerry Kelly

was up to and what his behaviour

0:41:320:41:35

was.

There have been calls for his

resignation already over the matter.

0:41:350:41:43

Will talk a lot sportier over the

programme.

0:41:430:41:49

Tomorrow the Secretary of State,

Karen Bradley, will chair her first

0:41:490:41:51

roundtable talks at Stormont

0:41:510:41:52

since taking up the post,

but she's now playing down

0:41:520:41:55

the significance of this week,

which she had previously

0:41:550:41:57

described as a "milestone".

0:41:570:41:58

While much of the emphasis of recent

months has been on discussions

0:41:580:42:01

between Sinn Fein and the DUP,

this is the chance for the smaller

0:42:010:42:04

parties to get their

elbows on the table.

0:42:040:42:06

Joining me now are the SDLP's

Mark H Durkan, who's in our Foyle

0:42:060:42:09

studio, John Stewart

from the Ulster Unionists and the

0:42:090:42:11

Alliance Party's Paula Bradshaw.

0:42:110:42:12

What are you hoping

for from tomorrow's discussions?

0:42:120:42:21

It is interesting to hear that there

hasn't been any down play of the

0:42:220:42:28

significance of it and the isn't

much expectation in the public and

0:42:280:42:36

we see tomorrow as a huge

opportunity and we have the five

0:42:360:42:41

parties finally sitting down at the

start of what is we hope will be a

0:42:410:42:48

inclusive and transparent process

and the first test of that

0:42:480:42:51

transparency will be weathered the

DUP and Sinn Fein there are

0:42:510:42:59

DUP and Sinn Fein there are the

three parties how far they have got

0:42:590:43:01

on behind closed doors and the

government has told us as well that

0:43:010:43:05

there has been sick that the process

and we are close to a deal but we

0:43:050:43:10

need be told that and we can't

address a process that we don't owe

0:43:100:43:15

anything about and the public have a

right to know what progress has been

0:43:150:43:19

made. They can see that obstacles

remain and we all want to work

0:43:190:43:26

together to overcome those obstacles

and get the government up and

0:43:260:43:29

running again.

Do you have any

optimism about what might come out

0:43:290:43:36

of tomorrow or might this be a

process of windowdressing and it

0:43:360:43:41

everything will fall apart?

First of

all, I was keeping an eye on the

0:43:410:43:47

media yesterday and you would expect

the DUP and Sinn Fein to come out

0:43:470:43:54

and say what they expect but that

didn't happen will stop and the

0:43:540:44:02

public are right to expect failure,

but we have seen all parties get on

0:44:020:44:13

board and that will unlock

everything here and we need a stable

0:44:130:44:18

assembly and that will only happen

if we have the mechanisms and

0:44:180:44:23

structured to move forward to

democratic politics.

Is there any

0:44:230:44:30

sense of any movement between the

DUP and Sinn Fein to make you

0:44:300:44:35

optimistic about tomorrow?

Not that

I have seen. Discussions are

0:44:350:44:43

ongoing, but the parties, the DUP

and Alliance have been given no

0:44:430:44:51

indication of what progress has been

made. All five parties have sit sat

0:44:510:44:57

round the table since June last

year, that is ridiculous, we need

0:44:570:45:02

inclusive talks. I have already said

loud and clear to the Secretary of

0:45:020:45:10

State that we need to know where the

parties have got to before we can

0:45:100:45:13

move forward.

You can understand why

do Sinn Fein and the DUP would not

0:45:130:45:19

want to give away their negotiating

positions,.

I can't see how they can

0:45:190:45:28

ask for an inclusive process, if

they can't even tell the other

0:45:280:45:37

parties what is they have got to we

need transparency and be respectful

0:45:370:45:42

of the public and we all need to

know what has been going on since

0:45:420:45:45

May of last year. I was involved in

the talks before the general

0:45:450:45:50

election last year and they were

transparent. What has changed in

0:45:500:45:56

that time, we need to know?

Presumably, if these talks are to be

0:45:560:46:02

successful they will require

compromise, particularly on the part

0:46:020:46:07

of the DUP and Sinn Fein. If those

two parties reveal no negotiating

0:46:070:46:12

hands you will tell the rest of

bursts and that will hold them below

0:46:120:46:18

the water line so it doesn't make

sense for them to do that.

I think

0:46:180:46:22

it makes perfect sense and the

public have a right to know where we

0:46:220:46:28

are. Yes, compromise is required.

Politics is meant to be the art of

0:46:280:46:33

the possible and is important that

we all compromise so that we get

0:46:330:46:38

what is possible. What we have seen

in the past year is no government,

0:46:380:46:46

no decisions have been made. We

haven't seen any progress on the

0:46:460:46:50

issues that have been proposed,

there has been no progress. We need

0:46:500:47:00

a legislative assembly and that is

why it is extremely important that

0:47:000:47:06

we focus our energies on redesigning

the petition of concern so that it

0:47:060:47:16

can remain as a means of protecting

or be used for abuse the rights of

0:47:160:47:25

man or a tease.

So is that what you

think will be the factor that will

0:47:250:47:35

bring an end to the logjam? Yellow

macro it's not a view,.

However you

0:47:350:47:44

want to look at it, after the

assembly election last March, we

0:47:440:47:49

have brought plenty more to the

table and it is important that we

0:47:490:47:54

move forward on the Irish language

rights or equal marriage rights, and

0:47:540:48:04

we have gone backwards and all those

things have been compromised.

Do you

0:48:040:48:12

believe that reform of the petition

of concern could be the key?

There's

0:48:120:48:20

going to have to be some sort of

agreement this week in terms of some

0:48:200:48:25

issues around how that is going to

be informed. But there will be some

0:48:250:48:29

things that can be accommodated in

advance of that, like the Irish

0:48:290:48:34

language. But we have thought very

much at politically but about the

0:48:340:48:42

Irish language act and we would like

to see some agreement about same-sex

0:48:420:48:46

marriage. But even the issue about

Gerry Kelly, there isn't a standards

0:48:460:48:58

commissioner at the minute,. So the

reform of the petition of concern is

0:48:580:49:08

not just about the issues, the

big-ticket issues, it cuts right

0:49:080:49:14

across the whole workings of the

assembly.

Before I ask you about

0:49:140:49:18

Gerry Kelly, is the DUP prepared to

compromise to get a deal?

We are

0:49:180:49:26

open to the process and I don't know

what the stumbling blocks are. The

0:49:260:49:34

Good Friday Agreement, the spirit of

Northern Ireland pro takes is based

0:49:340:49:40

on compromise.

0:49:400:49:45

on compromise.

Why are members of

your party saying that it is

0:49:480:49:52

becoming clearer that the campaign

has been hijacked by Sinn Fein to

0:49:520:50:00

promote cultural supremacy. It

doesn't look like he's getting ready

0:50:000:50:03

to compromise.

We believe very

strongly that there should be strong

0:50:030:50:11

protection for the Irish language

and we see no need for an Irish

0:50:110:50:16

language act. And it is not for us

at this stage, we believe strongly

0:50:160:50:26

that the place to do this is before

the assembly in a spirit of

0:50:260:50:31

transparency.

But you are not making

it easy for the DUP to compromise.

0:50:310:50:36

We are standing by the belief that

we have set down everything as a

0:50:360:50:41

party.

What do you make of that?

That doesn't help anybody towards

0:50:410:50:50

moving towards compromise.

No, he

said that this could be dealt with

0:50:500:51:00

and we have now seen an interim

report and there is no reference to

0:51:000:51:04

it. He has boxed himself into a

corner and he needs to get on board

0:51:040:51:16

with a set of proposals and

legislation and they have been left

0:51:160:51:20

behind by much on this.

And what

about the SDLP on the Irish language

0:51:200:51:25

act? Does that have to be one?

We

are entirely supportive of an Irish

0:51:250:51:35

language act and in the last

assembly, my party asked for a bill

0:51:350:51:42

on that.

I know that, but will it

that....? Yellow macro I believe we

0:51:420:51:52

do need a devolved institution.

We

need a Irish language act in the

0:51:520:51:59

legislation.

Let's move on to the

story that we have been talking

0:51:590:52:06

about at the beginning of the

programme which is the footage that

0:52:060:52:10

has appeared a Gerry Kelly removing

a clamp from his car apparently on

0:52:100:52:16

Friday. What do you make of that?

What you think of the implications

0:52:160:52:21

of it for the political process?

The

fact that Gerry Kelly is a

0:52:210:52:27

spokesperson for Sinn Fein,

obviously the police have now been

0:52:270:52:35

involved and the parties have legal

representation, so we will see how

0:52:350:52:39

that pans out. But this is the sort

of stuff that reflects on the

0:52:390:52:45

behaviour of MPs and we need to get

the assembly back up and running so

0:52:450:52:49

that we can address this matter.

Are

there any circumstances where there

0:52:490:52:57

is possible for someone to remove a

wheel clamp with a set of bolts

0:52:570:53:00

cutters? Yellow macro I don't

believe the rears.

Who carries bolt

0:53:000:53:09

cutters in their boots? I don't

think it is acceptable to be seen to

0:53:090:53:16

be doing that. Not only is he a

police spokesperson but he is on the

0:53:160:53:21

police board. There has

0:53:210:53:28

police board. There has to be. If

the unacceptable to remove it and

0:53:290:53:32

say that's because I had meetings to

go to. People don't like being wheel

0:53:320:53:37

clamped, getting fined or getting

fined for speeding, but if you break

0:53:370:53:45

the law, then you have to face the

consequences. It's not acceptable to

0:53:450:53:50

say that you have somewhere to go

and so I removed the clamp.

OK, Sinn

0:53:500:53:56

Fein have made it very clear that

she Gerry Kelly has passed this

0:53:560:54:01

matter on to his solicitor and his

solicitor will be dealing with the

0:54:010:54:05

interim. And Mr Kelly will not be

making any further comment. Mark,

0:54:050:54:11

what you make of the footage using?

I'm not sure how this will proceed

0:54:110:54:17

legally but what I do think is very

important is that politicians are

0:54:170:54:23

not seem to be be owned or above the

law. The first thing I saw up --

0:54:230:54:35

what was in Derry, it is still pitch

black eight o'clock in the morning,

0:54:350:54:41

so was it a typo in that statement?

A bit they will clarify that. I do

0:54:410:54:52

think, Mark, you started our

conversation today about the really

0:54:520:54:58

important issues today which is the

talks. And we shouldn't be

0:54:580:55:01

distracted by things like this.

Let's hear more from Brian and

0:55:010:55:10

Amanda. In terms of these three

smaller parties, all five parties

0:55:100:55:18

will be sitting round the table

discussing the rest Aleutian of

0:55:180:55:23

devolution since last June. -- the

restitution of devolution.

It will

0:55:230:55:32

become quickly apparent to the SDLP

weather is a process they are part

0:55:320:55:38

of. I have found it difficult to

become energised by the current

0:55:380:55:46

phase of talks.

Brian, is it a

genuine process and does the import

0:55:460:55:52

roll Blunt of the smaller parties

matter?

No, tomorrow at the DUP and

0:55:520:56:00

Sinn Fein will not say tomorrow

where they stand and one of the

0:56:000:56:04

reasons is because the last time the

talks were open, confidential

0:56:040:56:09

documents were given to loyalist

protesters, so they just don't trust

0:56:090:56:16

the fact that anything they say

confidentially will be kept

0:56:160:56:19

confidential. But I think it is also

the stage we have reached where

0:56:190:56:24

opinion

0:56:240:56:29

opinion polls, makes it clear that

they cannot give an Irish act and

0:56:290:56:34

the position of Sinn Fein as they

cannot go back in without an Irish

0:56:340:56:38

language act so there is a complete

impasse not just on the Irish

0:56:380:56:44

language, polar's point. Paulus

point. At any stage the assembly

0:56:440:56:58

could collapse. If the First

Minister resigns, that is it.

I

0:56:580:57:03

wonder whether you think Karen

Bradley is the person to break the

0:57:030:57:11

logjam. We have had calls for

independent talks, she says it is

0:57:110:57:16

not of the table. Lord Eames macro

said he'd we need to get involved.

0:57:160:57:26

There is no sign of that happening.

I don't think Karen Bradley whizzed

0:57:260:57:34

brought here to inject any new

thinking.

0:57:340:57:41

thinking. One of the interesting

things about the Irish language act,

0:57:410:57:54

others party support that.

The

spectre of another assembly election

0:57:540:57:59

was raised during the week, is that

a serious runner?

I don't think it

0:57:590:58:04

is, if you have the say another

election with the same result,, the

0:58:040:58:09

actual campaign will mean there will

be no movement afterwards.

0:58:090:58:18

The boundary commission officially

would least its review of the 17

0:58:440:58:49

cars are Jewish in constituencies

for Northern Ireland.

0:58:490:58:57

for Northern Ireland. -- review of

the 17 constituencies within

0:58:570:59:00

Northern Ireland.

That was a mistake

and people related realise it was a

0:59:000:59:06

mistake.

0:59:060:59:11

mistake.

Sorry there has been

misunderstanding but there have been

0:59:120:59:19

to bait or questions about whether

that will be the right point to make

0:59:190:59:25

a statement about seeing where we

are on the talks.

0:59:250:59:29

Enda McClafferty reporting.

0:59:290:59:30

Gerry Adams is

beginning his last week

0:59:300:59:32

as Sinn Fein President before

he makes way for Mary Lou McDonald.

0:59:320:59:35

Speaking on the Andrew Marr show,

he was asked if Brexit

0:59:350:59:38

means his goal of a united

Ireland is now more likely.

0:59:380:59:45

I think we need to be very careful

that we don't see Brexit as

0:59:450:59:53

something which can be exploited.

Brexit is a disaster for the people

0:59:531:00:00

of Ireland. The British government

are not at all clear what the

1:00:001:00:08

relationship between the European

union is going to be and they are

1:00:081:00:10

arguing that they are going to leave

the customs union and they are going

1:00:101:00:14

to lead the single market and that

will end up a complete disaster for

1:00:141:00:19

the people here on the island of

Ireland. The negotiations have moved

1:00:191:00:27

into the second phase, and it is a

fudge and is full of contradictions

1:00:271:00:32

and business people are totally

dependent on the flow of back and

1:00:321:00:36

forth of business and commerce but

across the border. The harder you

1:00:361:00:43

get the border that will done that.

Brian, Mr Adams steps down after 35

1:00:431:00:52

years of the helm. Has his time in

charge brought a united Ireland

1:00:521:01:00

closer to a reality?

His presence

and role in the last 35 years

1:01:001:01:05

certainly hasn't, as things like

Brexit, demographic change and

1:01:051:01:09

economic change, but the 35 years of

the IRA campaign under Gerry Adams

1:01:091:01:18

leadership certainly hasn't.

Do you

agree with that?

Yes, I think the

1:01:181:01:27

time is now right for the

Republicans to set out what Ireland

1:01:271:01:30

should look like.

But it is going to

be a different Sinn Fein without

1:01:301:01:39

Gerry Adams.

Of course. Their

ambition is to get

1:01:391:01:46

Welcome back. Our expert panel is

still with us to talk through the

1:01:511:01:56

week's events and what we expected,

in the near future. One thing that

1:01:561:02:00

made the news was a scuffle at a

university in Bristol where Jacob

1:02:001:02:05

Rees Mogg was interrupted by some

protesters. Let's take a quick look

1:02:051:02:09

before we talk about it.

1:02:091:02:11

Jacob Rees Mogg, who always seems to

be the centre of any story these

1:02:281:02:33

days but Steve, are those unusual

scenes at the University political

1:02:331:02:37

meeting or is that happening around

the country are not being caught on

1:02:371:02:40

camera and therefore we do not know

about it?

It is not that unusual and

1:02:401:02:45

it happens at times when politics is

at the forefront. There is nothing

1:02:451:02:53

exceptional about the highly charged

atmosphere of politics and students

1:02:531:02:59

have always chosen controversial

speakers to go to university and get

1:02:591:03:03

a hard time like that. Jacob Rees

Mogg is brilliant at dealing with

1:03:031:03:07

people like that. I have seen him at

meetings where people have come in

1:03:071:03:11

and he is fantastic. Very polite and

courteous. That is the way of doing

1:03:111:03:18

it. It is an absolute myth that

something is happening and there is

1:03:181:03:22

a lot going on in politics at the

moment that is disturbing. People

1:03:221:03:27

doing this is not justifiable and

has always happened.

The idea that

1:03:271:03:33

someone would come to speak at the

union and someone did not like their

1:03:331:03:37

views and you would put on a

balaclava and shout, fascist some at

1:03:371:03:43

them, and think that was acceptable.

That did not happen. I'd tell you

1:03:431:03:49

what also did not happen, he was not

condoned by the Shadow Chancellor.

1:03:491:03:58

Not condone the behaviour in

Bristol.

Apart from the fact that

1:03:581:04:04

John McDonnell, not Jeremy Corbyn,

has repeatedly encouraged laughter

1:04:041:04:10

from audiences, talking about a

violent insurrection against

1:04:101:04:13

politicians. He said he thinks no

Tory MP should be able to speak

1:04:131:04:17

publicly without having this sort of

behaviour. Condoned by a mainstream

1:04:171:04:24

party, effectively Deputy Leader.

I

think you meant condemns all

1:04:241:04:29

violence.

He says that he has not

specifically condemned this. Correct

1:04:291:04:35

me if I am wrong. He has not

specifically condemned this.

Brandon

1:04:351:04:41

Lewis was trying to say these are

elements of the hard left and trying

1:04:411:04:45

to make this a bit of a party

political movement. There is no

1:04:451:04:53

evidence that they are associated

with the Labour Party.

There is a

1:04:531:04:57

little bit of evidence. A lot of

these infiltrators are members of

1:04:571:05:03

Momentum and they consider it to

Jeremy Corbyn. It is now an official

1:05:031:05:09

Labour Party campaign group. Brandon

Lewis is going to jump all over this

1:05:091:05:13

to try to claim huge political

capital in a bit of a naughty way.

1:05:131:05:19

Labour frontbenchers are not

encouraging their members. There is

1:05:191:05:23

wider truth going on, which is

politics is basically getting more

1:05:231:05:28

ideological. The centre ground is

weak and has a very poor voice. The

1:05:281:05:32

louder are on the far left and the

far right. That is why the centre

1:05:321:05:40

ground have to speak up.

There is

only one party conference where your

1:05:401:05:43

political editor needs security

guards. There is only one another is

1:05:431:05:52

the Labour Party confidence. When

Brandon Lewis was here earlier and

1:05:521:05:55

he said the Labour Party wants to

stop intimidation in politics, it is

1:05:551:06:00

arguable the public order act allows

for that anyway from that nobody

1:06:001:06:03

wants to see people putting

themselves forward in public life

1:06:031:06:06

being intimidated. Is this a way of

getting political capital out of the

1:06:061:06:13

situation?

It is. I remember Keith

Joseph, a real innocent right-winger

1:06:131:06:20

going to universities and getting

worse treatment than this. I am not

1:06:201:06:24

justifying this treatment was it has

always gone on amongst students.

1:06:241:06:27

There is anger that it manifests

itself in these stupid ways but has

1:06:271:06:34

always gone on. He is trying to make

political capital. Linked to

1:06:341:06:42

Momentum, it is not clear. People

are struggling in the media to make

1:06:421:06:46

sense of it. It is different in

different places and its influence

1:06:461:06:50

is different in different places. He

is trying to make political capital

1:06:501:06:54

out of things that have always gone

on.

Jacob Rees Mogg is at the centre

1:06:541:06:59

of every story this week. He is

deeply critical of Treasury

1:06:591:07:04

forecasts and having a go at the

civil servants. He actually accused

1:07:041:07:08

civil servants in the Treasury of

fiddling the figures. It was a

1:07:081:07:11

remarkable thing for a senior

politician to say when they

1:07:111:07:17

generally pride ourselves on the

impartiality of the civil service in

1:07:171:07:19

this country. A former head of the

civil service, Gus O'Donnell, said

1:07:191:07:24

this to say.

1:07:241:07:27

We look at the evidence

and we go where it is.

1:07:271:07:30

Of course, if you are selling snake

oil, you don't like the idea

1:07:301:07:33

of experts testing your product.

1:07:331:07:34

That's what we've got,

this backlash of evidence among

1:07:341:07:36

experts is because they know

where the experts will go.

1:07:361:07:42

Julia, that is him criticising

Brexiteers who have been criticising

1:07:421:07:46

Treasury figures.

What do you make

of it? What is that an ageing is we

1:07:461:07:50

are forgetting why the Office for

Budget Responsibility was set up. It

1:07:501:07:56

was about the fact the Treasury and

civil servants were politicising

1:07:561:08:01

these budget predictions and all of

these growth predictions and it

1:08:011:08:05

would take the politics out of it

and set up the OBR. Why it was

1:08:051:08:11

accepted it was a good idea, we know

the civil service, it is ingrained

1:08:111:08:15

in them to be against change it has

been ingrained since time in

1:08:151:08:20

memorial. Everyone working for them

says they have to work against the

1:08:201:08:24

sluggish view of the civil service.

Brexit is the biggest change their

1:08:241:08:29

will take on. They go with the

facts. The same civil servants from

1:08:291:08:35

the Treasury are working on those

predictions. It was politicised and

1:08:351:08:40

utterly wrong. After the vote to

leave, they predicted there would be

1:08:401:08:47

5000 job losses and a recession. The

people who worked on and on this

1:08:471:08:53

Treasury report, they are either

completely politicised, in which

1:08:531:08:55

case they should go, or they are

really bad at their jobs, in which

1:08:551:09:00

case they should go.

It is quite

astonishing to save the Treasury has

1:09:001:09:06

its own political agenda.

That is

total bunkum. Civil servants have

1:09:061:09:09

views. They are voters that they

properly came into the civil service

1:09:091:09:14

because they are

1:09:141:09:19

because they are interested in

politics. Civil servants will and

1:09:211:09:23

have carried out brilliant bits of

change was that they were behind the

1:09:231:09:25

creation of the NHS and welfare

reforms. Everything like that was

1:09:251:09:28

done by civil servants. To think

civil servants do things people

1:09:281:09:36

disapprove of and an ideological

perspective that Julia will not like

1:09:361:09:38

is because they are not being given

direction by ministers for the if

1:09:381:09:42

ministers run civil servants

properly they will get results that

1:09:421:09:45

they want. Civil servants have had a

woeful leadership from the

1:09:451:09:54

Government about Brexit because the

Government will not get off the

1:09:541:09:57

fence.

They may well have to this

week. They have two meetings this

1:09:571:10:02

week. Will we have any further

clarity by the end of that what the

1:10:021:10:08

Government wants the end state to

be?

It will be what it appears to be

1:10:081:10:14

now, which is, you have your cake

and eat its strategy. Theresa May

1:10:141:10:19

will emerge from these two important

meetings and will say that we want

1:10:191:10:24

some kind of continued free trade

relationship with Europe but we want

1:10:241:10:28

to be free to make our own trade

deals. B want a soft border with

1:10:281:10:33

Ireland and so did be you and now we

will go in and negotiate. It seems

1:10:331:10:37

to me that is where the problem

begins. -- the EU. She will

1:10:371:10:46

begins. -- the EU. She will not a

have your cake and eat it option.

1:10:461:10:49

There are tensions about the

relationship with the customs union.

1:10:491:10:54

You mentioned her speech about an

associate membership with the

1:10:541:10:58

customs union.

There has been a huge

row about whether we are leaving the

1:10:581:11:02

customs union but could be being our

customs union question that she had

1:11:021:11:05

said I want is to have a customs

agreement. Why is this such a fault

1:11:051:11:11

line within the party?

It comes down

to the absolute epicentre all now up

1:11:111:11:20

of Brexit if there is such a thing.

-- nub. A senior Cabinet minister,

1:11:201:11:31

they said, the customs union is the

fault line driving right through the

1:11:311:11:42

Cabinet on Brexit. It always was and

always will be full to the customs

1:11:421:11:46

union is the one thing that will

either stop the Brexiteers getting

1:11:461:11:50

what they want out of Brexit, which

is trade deals with the rest of the

1:11:501:11:55

world. They remain as corrupt or

soft Brexiteers with what they want,

1:11:551:11:59

which is closer links with the EU.

That is why there is such strong

1:11:591:12:05

disagreement. There will be yet

another fudge in Cabinet because it

1:12:051:12:09

is too hard to make a binary

decision. That will go to the EU.

1:12:091:12:14

The EU will look at it and say, this

is cake and eat it verge, decide.

1:12:141:12:20

That is the key moment.

It is

extraordinary. -- fudge. It

1:12:201:12:27

certainly should not be decided now

that the idea they will decided in a

1:12:271:12:34

four our debate is rather unlikely.

Also if you end up with a situation

1:12:341:12:39

which does not explain with much

clarity, it will not stop the noises

1:12:391:12:45

from the rest of the party, will it?

That has been unstoppable for 30

1:12:451:12:51

years. That will be the constant

background hum. It is the fate of

1:12:511:12:56

every Tory leader to try to navigate

around that noise. Of course, Europe

1:12:561:13:01

has brought down the last three Tory

Prime Minister. Although earlier I

1:13:011:13:06

cautious about saying whether she

would fall over the next few months,

1:13:061:13:12

Europe is the thing that torment is

Tory leaders.

The alternative, could

1:13:121:13:17

a non-Brexiteer come through and

become Tory leader and then Prime

1:13:171:13:22

Minister have another election?

Jeremy Corbyn is in favour of

1:13:221:13:25

Brexit.

1:13:251:13:26

That's all for today.

1:13:261:13:27

Join me again next Sunday

at 11 here on BBC One.

1:13:271:13:30

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:301:13:33

Sarah Smith and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include chairman of the Conservative Party Brandon Lewis MP and shadow secretary of state for health Jonathan Ashworth MP. The political panel comprises Tom Newton Dunn, Steve Richards and Julia Hartley-Brewer.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS