11/03/2018 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


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11/03/2018

Mark Carruthers looks at the political developments of the week and questions policy makers on the key issues.


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Morning, everyone.

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I'm Sarah Smith and this

is the Sunday Politics.

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I'll be bringing you up to speed

on all the political

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comings and goings in

Westminster and beyond.

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Coming up in today's programme.

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As the investigation into the nerve

agent attack in Salisbury continues,

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we'll be taking to the former

Home Secretary Jack Straw

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and former Security Minister,

Pauline Neville Jones.

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Is there room for more spending?

week, the Chancellor Philip Hammond

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has hinted austerity could be over

as he said there was "light

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at the end of the tunnel".

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We join the Universities minister

Sam Gyimah on what's jokingly been

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called a "punishment

tour" of the country -

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trying to attract students

to the Conservative Party.

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And coming up here...

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Sammy Wilson is live

in the studio as reaction

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continues to the NIO budget.

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Plus, the chair of the Policing

Board on why she can't

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properly supervise the PSNI.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And as usual we've got three

Westminster insiders who will take

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us behind the headlines and tell us

what's really going on.

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Today I'm joined by Tom Newton Dunn,

Dia Chakravarty and George Eaton.

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The unfolding events over the past

week in the cathedral city

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of Salisbury could have been taken

straight from the pages

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of a spy thriller.

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The poisoning of a Russian former

double agent who had passed secrets

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to Britain and moved to Salisbury

after a 2010 spy swap, involved

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the use of a sinister nerve agent.

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It has shocked the country

with the finger of suspicion

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pointing firmly at Moscow.

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The big story of the week started

in Salisbury after a former

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Russian double agent,

Sergei Skripal, and his daughter

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Yulia and the policeman who went

to their aid all mysteriously fell

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ill because an as yet

unidentified nerve agent.

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12 years ago, Alexander Litvinenko

was killed by polonium 210.

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Was this more Russian foul play?

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Boris Johnson was quick

to retaliate, saying there could be

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implications for this summer's

World Cup in Russia.

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I think it will be very difficult

to imagine that UK representation

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in that event could go ahead

in the normal way.

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Did he mean the England team?

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The Prime Minister explained.

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The point the Foreign Secretary

was making yesterday was that,

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depending on what comes out

in relation to the investigation

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into the attack on the two

individuals that took place

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in Salisbury, that it might be

appropriate for the government

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to look at whether ministers

and other dignitaries should attend

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the World Cup in Russia.

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Russian state TV mocked the Foreign

Secretary for his comments,

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but the government's

firm language persisted.

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The use of a nerve agent on UK soil

is a brazen and reckless act.

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This was attempted murder

in the most cruel and public way.

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We still can't get through a week

without mentioning the B word

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as the Chancellor delivered

the latest big Brexit speech.

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He's determined to get

a good deal for the city.

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We still can't get through a week

without mentioning the B word

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So I'm clear not only

that it is possible to include

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financial services within a trade

deal, but that it is very much

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in our mutual interest to do so.

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Perhaps unsurprisingly

the EU disagreed.

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Also when it comes to financial

services, life will be

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different after Brexit.

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The EU had other things to worry

about, though, as Donald Trump put

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forward his highly controversial

plan to make American steel

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and aluminium great again.

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Surrounded by metal workers,

the President signed proclamations

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to impose a 25% tariff on steel

and a 10% tariff on aluminium

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imports into the US.

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The European Union has not treated

us well and it's been a very,

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very unfair trade situation.

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Claims of Parliamentary bullying

and sexual harassment hit

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the headlines with some

of the allegations going

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all the way to the top.

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Back in 2010, a woman called

Kate Emms took up the position

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as John Bercow's private secretary.

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But she stood down from that post

after less than a year.

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Her colleagues told Newsnight

that this is because Mr Bercow's

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bullying left her unable to continue

in that job.

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Theresa May enthusiastically

welcomed Saudi royalty

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to Downing Street this week.

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Mohammed bin Salman was even treated

to lunch at the Palace.

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Billboards sprung up extolling

in the crown prince's virtues.

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Supporters of the man

they call Mr Everything say

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he is a great reformer.

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But protests surrounding UK arms

sales were also highly visible

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and with Saudi's intervention

in Yemen ongoing, the visit

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angered Jeremy Corbyn.

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British arms sales have sharply

increased and British military

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advisers are directing the war.

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It cannot be right

that her government...

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Mr Speaker, it cannot be right

that her government is colluding

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in what the United Nations says

is evidence of war crimes.

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Clearly riled, Theresa May

got her own back, calling

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Jeremy Corbyn out on the eve

of International Women's Day.

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Can I thank the Right

Honourable Gentleman

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for telling me that it is

International Women's Day tomorrow.

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LAUGHTER.

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I think that's what's

called "mansplaining".

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Tom, Dia and George

were watching that with me.

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Now some insight and analysis into

what's going on behind the

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headlines. The big story of the week

is obviously the poisoning of Sergei

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Skripal and whether or not Russia

was involved. A lot of people have

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been quick to assume that President

Putin sanctioned this and it's a

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Russian state operation but can we

be sure of that?

Reasonably sure,

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yes, clearly there is no physical

proof to produce at the moment. I

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think by the end of last week the

government were in no doubt that

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this was ordered by the Russian

state and in particular Vladimir

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Putin, who, under Russian state

rules, has to sign of all foreign

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assassinations personally since rule

change in 2006. The reason I think

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they are almost certain about this

is quite frankly no one else has a

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motive to do that. Who would want to

do a better job in spite of analogy

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on an old colonel living quietly in

Salisbury? Not the people have the

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modes of delivery to do this, to

pass a nerve agent, chemical

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weapons, on Britain's streets.

Thirdly, this will be the killer,

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the scientific proof it was an

extremely rare nerve agent, used,

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not one of the more widely available

once you see in things like Syria,

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it's a rare particular type which

has only been known to be produced

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in one or two laboratories in the

world, one of them is in Moscow. The

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Moscow foreign spy service. What is

fascinating is not just was Vladimir

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Putin responsible? It is why he

wanted us to know he was

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responsible, because he left such a

massive calling card, and that has

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been really bothering cabinet

ministers in the last week.

Dia, we

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had from the Chief Medical Officer

who said traces of this nerve agent

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has been found in the restaurant

where Sergei Skripal and his

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daughter were eating and 500 people

were there at the same time and they

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should wash their clothes and clean

their possessions that were with

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them. There is a small rescue but

there is a risk. Frightening news

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like that is what drives home to

people why it matters this is

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happening in the UK.

Absolutely and

there are so many questions about

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this, even before we do want to who

was doing this. That's very

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important. This also questions about

how the whole thing has been

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handled, seven days, and they are

now telling these terrified

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residents to wash their clothes and

possessions. Is that going to be

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enough? What exactly is this agent?

If we see people in scary laboratory

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suits walking around, doing what

they need to do, a quarantine going

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on, is it enough to say go and wash

your clothes seven days later? The

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communication around it, I

understand it is sensitive, that I

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think it has been dire. Really quite

woeful. If I was living in Salisbury

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I would be very, very worried.

George, the UK Government, once the

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investigation has finished and they

decide whether this was a

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state-sponsored assassination, they

need to decide how to respond. All

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we have practically heard of so far

is some rubber mats might not go to

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the World Cup in Russia, presumably

will have to do come up with

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something better than that --

diplomats. What can we do that

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Russia will care about?

The pressure

from some Labour Party and

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Conservative MPs is to introduce a

version of the Magnitsky Act, which

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means it's easier to freeze the

assets of Russians suspected of

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human rights abuses or corruption,

and expel them, but Britain is

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severely limited and I think it's

worth asking the question why did

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Russia choose this moment to target

Britain? We are set to leave the

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European Union, huge burdens on

governments, stretching the

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government bandwidth to its limits,

and Donald Trump and the USA who we

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supposedly have a special

relationship with, is imposing

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tariffs on steel and has not made

any robust intervention over this,

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despite the fact he normally rushes

to tweet when there is a terrorist

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attack on British soil after making

unhelpful remarks. He has not been

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standing shoulder to shoulder with

Britain in this instance.

There has

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been a suggestion this should come

up at the next Nato summit in

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Brussels, and they could be looking

for some kind of coordinated

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response from international allies.

Is that likely?

It's difficult to

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see at the moment. Russia's strength

here is significant and Vladimir

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Putin, such a brazen act, clearly he

does not feel Britain has the

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capacity to respond. Last December,

when we were short of gas, the one

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country we turn to was Russia.

We

will be back to talk about the other

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stories during the programme.

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The poisoning of Sergei Skripal

and his daughter carries

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echoes of the murder

of Alexander Litvinenko,

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the ex KGB officer who died

after drinking tea laced

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with radioactive polonium 210

in a London hotel in 2006.

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And this morning, his widow,

Marina Litvinenko urged Theresa May

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to adopt American-style laws that

are tougher on Russia.

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You need to be very selective who

you are friends with. And when you

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allow people with money to come to

your country and make a business,

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you need to be sure what kind of

money these people try to bring to

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your country because very often this

money is stolen from Russian people

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and sometimes it is a very serious

crime behind it. I'm

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crime behind it. I'm absolutely

asking this question to unite this

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action already done in the United

States, in Europe. I think the UK

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has to do the same steps.

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Joining me now from Edinburgh

is the former Home and Foreign

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Secretary, Jack Straw.

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Thank you very much for joining us

this morning. Do you agree that the

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UK needs to introduce tougher laws,

the likes of which the US has?

I do

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think we should do this now. I think

have to take this very careful

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step-by-step way, so I think the

approach of Amber Rudd and her

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security minister, Ben Wallace, is

the right one. Jumping to

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conclusions in this situation is not

a sensible way to proceed. The other

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thing we have to think about very

carefully, when it comes to those

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who are saying something must be

done and if you are in government,

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you get this all the time, in

situations like this, something has

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got to be done, is what happens when

you have to get back to normality? I

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often reflect on the sanctions were

imposed to Zimbabwe for the

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different situation but there are

parallels. In retrospect, Robert

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Mugabe was a very bad man, but in

retrospect I often wonder if it was

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a sensible thing to do. In the end

we had to get the troops down again.

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It was very tricky so people need to

think very carefully indeed. This is

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on the assumption the Russian state

was behind this, which has not yet

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been approved or announced.

If we do

establish that and work on the

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presumption for now and I understand

your reservations, would President

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Putin care if we were to try and

institute some kind of sanctions or

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punishments or does it just increase

the siege mentality Russia is under

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threat from the rest of the world

which in many ways bolstered his

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position in advance of the elections

coming up soon?

If we were to do it

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unilaterally, just the UK, he

wouldn't careful stop with the EU,

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and more other major allies

including the USA, he might take

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notice but frankly, I think he

regarded as a medal if we were

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simply to do it by ourselves and he

knows that, post the collapse of the

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Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union in

the early 1990s, there is a huge

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amount of Russian money in the UK,

particularly in London, and a

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Magnitsky Act won't make that much

difference to the level of

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dependence of some very highly

respectable British London based

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financial institutions with Russian

money.

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With the Alexander Litvinenko case,

an enquiry two tiers to get to the

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bottom of what happened there, and

could only conclude that it was

0:15:020:15:08

probably orchestrated by the Russian

state. Can you take any sort of

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action on the basis of something

probably being true?

People need to

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bear in mind the example of Iraq.

The evidence against Saddam Hussein

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having and continuing to have

biological weapons was overwhelming.

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The question came up in United

Nations Security Council

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resolutions, passed unanimously.

That is what Tony Blair and I used

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almost 15 years ago to persuade

people to go to war against Iraq,

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and it turned out to be completely

incorrect, so you've got to be

0:15:420:15:47

really careful. I have the scars

literally on my back in respect of

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this. In the heat of the moment,

with people in the House of Commons

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and the newspapers screeching,

something 's got to be done, being

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non-explicit about what... Moreover,

we shouldn't descend to the level of

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the criminal justice system in the

Russian Federation or other states

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like that. There are demands today

from some Conservatives to ban the

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Russia Today programme.

The Shadow

Chancellor said today that he

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doesn't think Labour MPs will be

appearing on there in the future.

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Will you do the same?

I have not

appeared on there for some time, but

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I will make a decision on my own

terms. We have to be careful about

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doing that in the absence of

evidence. Far better for Britain's

0:16:400:16:47

position in the world to have high

standards of probity. It's better to

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bear in mind that well intentioned

people who do not lie at all,

0:16:520:16:58

including myself, and the House of

Commons by a huge majority, and

0:16:580:17:01

public opinion at the time, came to

the wrong decision with respect to

0:17:010:17:06

whether or not Saddam Hussein still

had biological weapons on the basis

0:17:060:17:11

of probabilities. That is the

difficulty here. People will of

0:17:110:17:15

course be very impatient indeed to

have a culprit here, and obviously

0:17:150:17:20

stacking it up on the basis of

circumstantial evidence, you can

0:17:200:17:24

make a very good case that it is the

Russian state, but we need a bit of

0:17:240:17:29

sobriety before we come to that

conclusion. Thank God that Amber

0:17:290:17:34

Rudd is the Home Secretary at the

moment. Someone else I could think

0:17:340:17:38

of in the British Cabinet, and she

is taking a very measured approach

0:17:380:17:44

to this.

0:17:440:17:47

Here with me now is Pauline Neville

Jones, who was Security

0:17:470:17:50

and Counter Terrorism Minister under

David Cameron, when Theresa May

0:17:500:17:52

was Home Secretary.

0:17:520:17:54

That was fascinating, listening to

Jack Straw drawing parallels with

0:17:540:17:58

Iraq and what was supposedly the

evidence of chemical and biological

0:17:580:18:02

weapons there, saying we have to be

very careful about pointing the

0:18:020:18:06

finger of blame. With your security

experience, will we ever be able to

0:18:060:18:11

establish whether this was

sanctioned by the Russians?

I doubt

0:18:110:18:14

the Russian state will admit it was

involved. In order to get absolute

0:18:140:18:19

proof, what we needed with

Litvinenko was to have a trial.

0:18:190:18:25

There hasn't been a trial because

the Russians wouldn't cooperate. I

0:18:250:18:30

think it's right for the government

to be cautious about saying anything

0:18:300:18:33

now, because it mustn't be seen to

lead the investigation and therefore

0:18:330:18:38

damage it, but once we have

established a degree of probability

0:18:380:18:42

about the cause, that is the time

for action. I think the chances of

0:18:420:18:48

it not being connected with Russia

in some way are very low.

The means

0:18:480:18:51

would point to that, but what is the

motive? This is a retired agent

0:18:510:18:57

who's been living here for years.

Came as part of the spy as well. The

0:18:570:19:03

unwritten rule of espionage is that

you don't touch spies. What dangers

0:19:030:19:09

does he pose to the Russian regime?

I think we simply don't know the

0:19:090:19:17

full story. There's plenty of

evidence that the Russian regime is

0:19:170:19:21

pretty vicious. Even if he was part

of a swap, I don't think you can

0:19:210:19:26

exclude the fact that the Russian

state might decide to take action

0:19:260:19:30

against him.

Looking at pictures of

him and his daughter there. It's

0:19:300:19:36

difficult to see what threat they

posed to the Russian state. Is it

0:19:360:19:41

not worth considering the

possibility that they may have been

0:19:410:19:44

involved in something else that

isn't technically state faction --

0:19:440:19:53

state sanctioned?

If possible. It is

possible that the Mafia was

0:19:530:19:57

involved. The question is, what lay

behind the Mafia and where did the

0:19:570:20:01

nerve agent come from? Is it

possible to come from elsewhere than

0:20:010:20:07

a state laboratory? It's difficult

to imagine that the threat isn't

0:20:070:20:14

going to go back to Russia somehow.

Is it possible to take action

0:20:140:20:20

against wealthy Russian oligarchs

living in London, even if we change

0:20:200:20:24

the laws and bring in something like

the Magnitsky act? Mrs Litvinenko

0:20:240:20:31

got a letter from Theresa May, Home

Secretary at the time, saying that

0:20:310:20:35

we want to make sure nothing like

this happens again in the UK, and

0:20:350:20:39

now it has.

There are already powers

which the government can use. One of

0:20:390:20:44

the reasons why there was an

argument in the Commons the other

0:20:440:20:47

day about this so-called Magnitsky

amendment was that the government

0:20:470:20:53

said, we've got the powers. You may

say, we need to use these powers,

0:20:530:20:59

for example to investigate people

who have unexplained wealth. There

0:20:590:21:04

are things we can do.

These are

people who are not necessarily

0:21:040:21:09

linked to Putin and the regime, so

these are two distinct things.

They

0:21:090:21:15

are. You have to be careful how you

do this, and it requires resources.

0:21:150:21:20

This is a complicated job. Jack

Straw put his finger on it when he

0:21:200:21:24

said, we need to act in concert with

allies. This is the thing that the

0:21:240:21:29

Russians really are going to take

notice of. At the moment, it's fair

0:21:290:21:34

to say that although we are Aljaz

overtime, we have gradually

0:21:340:21:40

increased the pressure. With

sanctions, and Nato have increased

0:21:400:21:45

measures on its borders, but we

still have a great deal of

0:21:450:21:49

harassment from the Russians. They

are taking action in people's

0:21:490:21:53

politics. They are conducting cyber

attacks. We need to act as an

0:21:530:21:59

alliance so that the Russians really

do believe, and they seek positive

0:21:590:22:05

evidence of it, that action against

one is an action against all, and

0:22:050:22:10

collective action follows. We need

to have a strategy that brings

0:22:100:22:14

together what we do militarily, what

we do to protect our citizens in the

0:22:140:22:20

cyber sphere, what we do in

broadcasting, so we have an all

0:22:200:22:24

encompassing way of dealing with

Russia.

Thank you very much for

0:22:240:22:31

coming to talk to us.

0:22:310:22:34

The new Universities Minister,

Sam Gyimah, has set himself

0:22:340:22:36

a rather ambitious task.

0:22:360:22:37

Travelling up and down the country,

he's trying to attract students

0:22:370:22:39

to the Conservative Party.

0:22:390:22:40

With just one in five voters aged

between 18 and 24 voting Tory

0:22:400:22:44

in the 2017 election,

it's been jokingly called

0:22:440:22:45

his "punishment tour".

0:22:450:22:47

Our reporter Elizabeth Glinka

joined Sam on his visit

0:22:470:22:49

to Canterbury Christ Church

University.

0:22:490:22:50

And just to warn you,

her report contains flashing images.

0:22:500:22:58

Was that a youth quake?

0:23:090:23:11

Reports of a massive

increase in young voters at

0:23:110:23:13

the last general election may

have been exaggerated.

0:23:130:23:16

# I got the big size

12s on my feet...

0:23:160:23:19

Nationally, the turnout didn't

really change, but of

0:23:190:23:22

the young people that did vote,

a whopping 67% went for Labour.

0:23:220:23:28

And in a place like

Canterbury, where there

0:23:280:23:30

are more than 30,000 students,

it's thought that their votes played

0:23:300:23:33

a big part in the city

electing its first ever Labour MP.

0:23:330:23:38

Canterbury.

0:23:380:23:40

This has been Conservative

since World War I.

0:23:400:23:43

An extraordinary surge

in their share, up 20% here.

0:23:430:23:49

In general, everyone just

always seems to think

0:23:490:23:51

that the Conservatives are always

doing something wrong,

0:23:510:23:53

so even if you don't know

about the Conservatives,

0:23:530:23:55

all you hear, you just think

negative things about it.

0:23:550:23:57

Most of my friends always slander

the Conservative name, saying,

0:23:570:24:00

"It's only for middle-aged men who

want the benefit from themselves."

0:24:000:24:03

Do you think you have

to be quite brave to

0:24:030:24:05

say, "I am a Conservative?"

0:24:050:24:07

Yeah.

0:24:070:24:08

At first, I was like,

OK, I'm not going

0:24:080:24:10

to say anything to my friends,

because they will just kick off.

0:24:100:24:13

One of my flatmates was like,

"If you are not a Labour

0:24:130:24:15

voter, don't talk to me."

0:24:150:24:17

Labour had a lot of backing.

0:24:170:24:18

They had people like

AJ Tracey jumping on.

0:24:180:24:20

So once they see that,

everyone kind of runs

0:24:200:24:22

to it, like, let's vote Labour.

0:24:220:24:24

# Tracksuit grey, black,

blue

0:24:240:24:25

# I was just a hope-filled kid

like you...

0:24:250:24:27

AJ Tracey is just one of any number

of current music acts who publicly

0:24:270:24:30

endorsed the Labour Party

at the last general election,

0:24:300:24:33

helping to build a brand

which was apparently three times

0:24:330:24:36

more attractive to young voters.

0:24:360:24:40

To be fair, it's not

as if there was some sort of golden

0:24:400:24:43

era of Conservative hipsters,

but the figures suggest

0:24:430:24:46

things are getting worse.

0:24:460:24:50

And that's why the new Universities

Minister, Sam Gyimah,

0:24:500:24:53

is currently on a nationwide tour,

including here in Canterbury,

0:24:530:24:56

where he is attempting to

at least start a conversation

0:24:560:24:59

with a generation of voters who see

his party as old, male and stale.

0:24:590:25:02

Minister, this seems

a good time to jump in.

0:25:020:25:06

This is an incredibly difficult job,

isn't it, convincing young people

0:25:060:25:11

to vote Conservative?

0:25:110:25:13

We do have our work cut out for us,

but I think the first thing to do

0:25:130:25:18

is actually to be on campus.

0:25:180:25:19

If we allow Jeremy Corbyn to be

the only one on campus, then we only

0:25:190:25:23

have ourselves to blame.

0:25:230:25:25

Many students will say to you, well,

it's fine, you're having

0:25:250:25:28

a review on student fees

and many other things.

0:25:280:25:30

The Labour Party's promising us

they're going to get rid of fees.

0:25:300:25:33

We know what happens when you

promised something for free.

0:25:330:25:35

Numbers are going to be capped,

which means fewer people

0:25:350:25:38

going to university.

0:25:380:25:40

It's the well off that

are going to do it.

0:25:400:25:43

That's not what we're about.

0:25:430:25:44

I'm not really worried

about Jeremy Corbyn's free

0:25:440:25:46

for all offer, because it's not

realistic, and he can't deliver it,

0:25:460:25:49

and we only need to look

at countries like Scotland to see

0:25:490:25:52

that it's not going to work.

0:25:520:25:53

And what reaction are you expecting

when you head in there?

0:25:530:25:56

Well, I thought it might

be rowdy like PMQs.

0:25:560:25:58

I've no idea.

0:25:580:25:59

I haven't had the mob treatment

anywhere yet so far.

0:25:590:26:01

# Your face ain't big for my boot

0:26:010:26:03

# Kick up the yout

0:26:030:26:04

# I know that I kick up the yout...

0:26:040:26:08

There might not have been

a youth quake nationally,

0:26:080:26:10

but there was a bit of a youth quake

in Canterbury, and I want to listen

0:26:100:26:14

and I want to understand.

0:26:140:26:16

You know, we've had enough

of austerity politics.

0:26:160:26:17

We've had enough of student fees,

things like that, and we've seen

0:26:170:26:20

the NHS get less and less

funded over time.

0:26:200:26:24

And it's hard to

ignore those things.

0:26:240:26:26

You know, we are going to take

action against you.

0:26:260:26:28

# Bros in my ear saying

"Stormz, don't do it"

0:26:280:26:31

# Devil on my shoulder

I don't lack

0:26:310:26:33

# Hit 'em

with a crowbar, I don't scrap...

0:26:330:26:35

Well, lots of discussion,

some of it a bit feisty,

0:26:350:26:37

but did the Minister win any

hearts and minds?

0:26:370:26:39

He's really good at talking

to students, and he's

0:26:390:26:42

here to talk to everyone.

0:26:420:26:43

Would it make you feel differently

about voting Conservative?

0:26:430:26:45

I took from your comments that

you were not a Conservative voter.

0:26:450:26:49

Definitely not, but I did think

he made some good points,

0:26:490:26:52

and he was very measured.

0:26:520:26:53

It's quite clear that there

are a number of people here who have

0:26:530:26:56

been seduced by Jeremy Corbyn,

but I think the purpose of this

0:26:560:26:59

is to let them realise

that there is a Conservative voice,

0:26:590:27:02

there is a Conservative point

of view, and that as a minister

0:27:020:27:04

I am here to listen.

0:27:040:27:07

Clearly a smart man.

0:27:070:27:08

I'm not sure it's better

or worse to have a smart

0:27:080:27:12

Tory or a stupid Tory,

but he knew what he was

0:27:120:27:14

talking about, even though

I disagree with him.

0:27:140:27:17

Would it make you think twice

about voting Conservative?

0:27:170:27:19

No, I will never vote

Conservative in my life.

0:27:190:27:23

So as the sun sets in Canterbury,

there's still a long way to go.

0:27:230:27:29

And Universities Minister Sam

Gymiah joins me now.

0:27:290:27:37

A smart Tory. That is a compliment

from one of the students! Do you

0:27:370:27:43

think you persuaded many of them to

vote Tory?

The point of the exercise

0:27:430:27:48

was not to persuade people to vote

Conservative. As Universities

0:27:480:27:53

Minister, I'm very conscious that

students are investing a

0:27:530:27:56

considerable amount of money in

their education, so they should have

0:27:560:28:02

a voice in the corridors of power.

Gone are the days that the

0:28:020:28:05

Universities Minister 's spends time

with the chancellors and not the

0:28:050:28:10

students. Jeremy Corbyn has a voice

on the campus, and if we allow that

0:28:100:28:15

to continue, we only have ourselves

to blame. The starting point in the

0:28:150:28:19

process is listening and engaging,

rather than going in there to preach

0:28:190:28:23

to them about what their problems

and answers are.

You have a mountain

0:28:230:28:28

to climb with young people. Let's

have a look at the numbers. At the

0:28:280:28:33

last election, between 18 to

24-year-olds, 67% voted Labour.

0:28:330:28:39

Unless you can change those minds,

you have a generational problem with

0:28:390:28:46

voters, and you will not see

Conservative governments in the

0:28:460:28:49

future, unless people change their

minds.

What I am doing at the moment

0:28:490:28:53

is pressing, which is why the party

is beginning to engage with students

0:28:530:28:58

at this level. A number of things

have come up as I've travelled

0:28:580:29:01

around the country that we can

address. Austerity keeps coming up.

0:29:010:29:05

We stopped making the case for why

we had to reduce the deficit from

0:29:050:29:11

the extreme levels that we inherited

from the Labour Party. One man said

0:29:110:29:15

to me, all I have ever heard the

Conservatives talk

0:29:150:29:28

about is austerity. It must be your

ideology. That is clearly not the

0:29:290:29:31

case. It is a matter of necessity,

not ideology.

We have the spring

0:29:310:29:34

statement coming up next week. The

Chancellor has said this morning

0:29:340:29:37

that we are in a much better

financial position at the moment

0:29:370:29:40

then we have been, but it doesn't

sound like he's going to end

0:29:400:29:44

austerity. Would you encourage him

to do so?

This brings statement is

0:29:440:29:48

an update on the public finances.

But he is going to point further

0:29:480:29:53

ahead to the budget in the autumn,

and he doesn't seem to be talking

0:29:530:29:58

about the increased public spending

you think will attract people to the

0:29:580:30:02

Tories.

We are not going to say we

are going to return to discredited

0:30:020:30:07

economic policies of 40 years ago.

What he should be saying to young

0:30:070:30:11

people is that the balanced approach

that he is pursuing, in a world

0:30:110:30:16

where we have technological

challenge and a global market

0:30:160:30:20

economy, the Conservatives are

uniquely placed to deliver

0:30:200:30:24

prosperity for them. Another issue

that comes up is our motives. When

0:30:240:30:29

we talk about economic prosperity,

people feel it is for the few.

0:30:290:30:33

Sometimes I have to explain that the

top rate of tax has been higher

0:30:330:30:41

under the Conservatives, and that

the top 1% pay 20% of income tax.

0:30:410:30:45

They didn't know that. We need to

talk about -- we need to persuade

0:30:450:30:51

them that when we talk about

economic prosperity, it is their

0:30:510:30:53

future we are talking about.

0:30:530:30:59

You addressed tuition fees in the

film but look at maintenance grants

0:30:590:31:02

being cut by this government so the

poorer students to go to university

0:31:020:31:06

will lead with larger debt than

those from better off backgrounds.

0:31:060:31:09

When that is their experience right

now on campus, no wonder they keep

0:31:090:31:14

thinking you are looking after the

better off and not the

0:31:140:31:20

disadvantaged.

Canterbury has the

best proportion of students went

0:31:200:31:22

university for the first time in

their families. Many of those would

0:31:220:31:25

not be at university at all had we

pursue the Jeremy Corbyn policy.

0:31:250:31:34

Jeremy Corbyn is promising to

abolish tuition fees so that would

0:31:350:31:39

make it easier for students to go to

university.

Once you make university

0:31:390:31:43

free you can't have a current policy

we have which is that the numbers

0:31:430:31:46

who can go to university are capped.

At a time when the numbers were not

0:31:460:31:52

capped, our own history, very few

people went to university and mentor

0:31:520:31:57

very few poor people went

university. A consequence of the

0:31:570:32:01

Conservative policy is a lot of

disadvantaged people are giving to

0:32:010:32:04

university for the first time and we

have a student finance scheme where

0:32:040:32:08

you do not pay a penny as a first

burner unless you in over £25,000

0:32:080:32:14

and after 30 years, whatever you

have managed to pay, is written. I'm

0:32:140:32:19

not saying is perfect.

That very

system is replacing grants for

0:32:190:32:22

poorer students with loans. Why? If

you are so keen to get disadvantaged

0:32:220:32:29

students into universities, wide

takeaway maintenance grants?

There

0:32:290:32:33

is a review looking at the whole

system, but when many students

0:32:330:32:36

complain about the student finances,

they focus on accommodation.

0:32:360:32:40

Somewhere like London, landlords

want to get the years rent in

0:32:400:32:46

advance. That is a difficult

situation for them and the cost of

0:32:460:32:50

living issues, rather than assuming

we know...

There's an interest rate

0:32:500:32:56

on a student loan of over 6% which

is way in excess of what people are

0:32:560:33:01

borrowing on mortgages etc.

The cost

of living in University...

They must

0:33:010:33:08

be worried about it.

Whatever your

level of earnings, you pay 9% of

0:33:080:33:13

your income, which means higher rate

in graduates pay more to the system

0:33:130:33:17

but I also think to narrow the

debate on student fees, students

0:33:170:33:23

have a lot of interest, not all

students think student fees is their

0:33:230:33:27

big issue. Someone to see their

politicians care about making the

0:33:270:33:33

world a better place. What kind of

world they are going into, they will

0:33:330:33:37

get on the housing ladder, housing

is big issue for them but the

0:33:370:33:41

economy prospers, so I think that's

why you have got to listen and not

0:33:410:33:44

assume all students have the same

view and there is one answer that

0:33:440:33:49

deals with all the problems of every

18-21 -year-old.

Mental health keeps

0:33:490:33:52

cropping up. I'm sure the university

's lecturers strike came up as well.

0:33:520:33:57

Now students are paying £9,000 in

fees, they are consumers as well as

0:33:570:34:02

students, so should they get a

0:34:020:34:04

fees, they are consumers as well as

refund for the lessons they have

0:34:040:34:10

fees, they are consumers as well as

been taught?

Universities do not pay

0:34:100:34:11

lecturers on the day they strike,

they should not pocket those funds,

0:34:110:34:14

they should not pocket those funds,

but look at compensation for

0:34:140:34:16

students and there are real ways of

compensating students.

Would you

0:34:160:34:20

compel them to do that?

I'm not in a

position to compel them to do that.

0:34:200:34:26

There is the

0:34:260:34:28

position to compel them to do that.

university who has a wide-ranging

0:34:280:34:28

remit. I'm encouraged some

0:34:280:34:34

university who has a wide-ranging

universities are taking this

0:34:340:34:34

seriously. Kings College London will

offer financial compensation. I

0:34:340:34:40

think they should look at this very

seriously. I am disappointed I

0:34:400:34:45

think they should look at this very

seeing lots

0:34:450:34:47

think they should look at this very

from Durham University, a petition

0:34:470:34:48

of 5000 students, asking for

compensation. I want to university

0:34:480:34:54

to respond constructively, because

we are in the age of the student and

0:34:540:34:57

we are in the age of the student and

we are there to serve.

One quick

0:34:570:35:00

question, talking about Russia on

the programme so far this morning, a

0:35:000:35:04

story this

0:35:040:35:07

the programme so far this morning, a

saying over £800 million has been

0:35:070:35:09

the programme so far this morning, a

donated to the Tory party from

0:35:090:35:10

donated to the Tory party from

Russian link to donors

0:35:100:35:12

donated to the Tory party from

May took over, even notice that you

0:35:120:35:15

wanted an arms length relationship.

Is that something that should be

0:35:150:35:19

discouraged in the future and should

the money be returned now?

To make a

0:35:190:35:23

donation to a political

0:35:230:35:25

the money be returned now?

To make a

this country you have to be

0:35:250:35:27

the money be returned now?

To make a

citizen Dungannon

0:35:270:35:32

citizen Dungannon -- and betting

needs to be taken place. Modern

0:35:340:35:38

Britain is made up by people from

all sorts of places. Some groups of

0:35:380:35:45

people cannot participate in Aber

Democratic life to the fall, and we

0:35:450:35:47

people cannot participate in Aber

have got to be clear, these are

0:35:470:35:51

British citizens from Russia. Not

0:35:510:35:54

have got to be clear, these are

the Kremlin donating to the

0:35:540:35:54

Conservative Party.

Of course not,

but there could be a question of

0:35:540:35:59

Conservative Party.

Of course not,

where those funds came from in the

0:35:590:36:01

first place for the wedding

0:36:010:36:04

where those funds came from in the

on the front page of a Sunday

0:36:040:36:05

newspaper saying this much money has

been donated to the Conservative

0:36:050:36:09

newspaper saying this much money has

Party, maybe it would be better to

0:36:090:36:10

newspaper saying this much money has

think again where you receive your

0:36:100:36:12

large donations from?

It's not just

the letter of the law but

0:36:120:36:16

large donations from?

It's not just

should be thorough.

Sam Gyimah,

0:36:160:36:21

thank you very much for

0:36:210:36:24

It's coming up to 11.40.

0:36:240:36:25

You're watching

the Sunday Politics.

0:36:250:36:26

Still to come, we'll be

discussing the economy.

0:36:260:36:28

Is it time to end austerity?

0:36:280:36:33

Will

0:36:430:36:43

Hello and welcome to

the Sunday Politics.

0:36:430:36:46

At last we have a budget

but will it be left to civil

0:36:460:36:51

servants to decide how to spend it

or will the DUP be pulling

0:36:510:36:54

the strings behind the scenes?

0:36:540:36:56

The party's East Antrim MP

0:36:560:36:57

Sammy Wilson joins us live and -

caught in the political

0:36:570:36:59

cross fire.

0:36:590:37:00

The policing board

0:37:000:37:01

with no power.

0:37:010:37:03

Does that mean we no

longer have a fully

0:37:030:37:05

accountable police service?

0:37:050:37:08

I've been speaking to the chair

0:37:080:37:10

of the board who has real fears

about the future of policing

0:37:100:37:13

in a political vacuum.

0:37:130:37:20

I do not want to see all the good in

policing fall.

The longer it goes

0:37:200:37:26

on...

0:37:260:37:29

And

0:37:290:37:30

with their thoughts,

0:37:300:37:31

our commentators Andree Murphy

and Professor Peter Shirlow.

0:37:310:37:33

All that coming up in a moment,

0:37:330:37:36

but to tee it all up,

in the week of a budget,

0:37:360:37:39

more Brexit and even more blame over

the failed negotiations,

0:37:390:37:41

here's Stephen Walker.

0:37:410:37:49

Sinn Fein and the DUP went to

Brussels to tour Brexit with Michel

0:37:530:37:58

Barnier but the fallout from the

field box made the headlines.

I have

0:37:580:38:03

no knowledge of that. They were not

doing it on behalf of me.

A judge

0:38:030:38:12

ruled Arlene Foster's decision to

block Legacy funding was not lawful.

0:38:120:38:18

A former justice minister welcomed

the ruling. It should have been

0:38:180:38:22

speeded up by the provision of

money.

0:38:220:38:30

money.

Westminster set our Ajit and

the DUP took credit for an extra

0:38:300:38:36

£400 million. -- set our budget.

Not

everyone was happy. Some of us were

0:38:360:38:48

naive.

0:38:480:38:58

Mairtin O Muilleoir ending that

0:38:580:38:59

Stephen Walker's week in 60 seconds.

0:38:590:39:01

Sammy Wilson from the DUP joins

us now in the studio.

0:39:010:39:07

There is no doubt that we are in a

better place today because of the

0:39:070:39:12

deal that Julie go she did with the

Conservative Party but it has to be

0:39:120:39:15

said there is real pain in this

budget.

0:39:150:39:23

budget. -- because of the deal that

you negotiated.

0:39:230:39:31

you negotiated. Scotland and Wales

is also trying to balance the books

0:39:310:39:35

after years of unbridled spending by

the Labour Party. It is important to

0:39:350:39:39

get borrowing under control but we

need a special case for Northern

0:39:390:39:43

Ireland. We had fever pitch at that

stage and we succeeded in using that

0:39:430:39:47

leverage. We have got 4% more than

our budget than what we would have

0:39:470:39:54

had had that not been for the

influence of the DUP.

0:39:540:40:00

Seven Stormont departments are

facing big cats, but will have big

0:40:000:40:04

implications, but is difficult to

defend.

The last Assembly wanted

0:40:040:40:10

more money spent on health and

education. The public had indicated

0:40:100:40:15

that those were the priorities. £110

million of the additional funding

0:40:150:40:21

which we were able to obtain for the

budget in Northern Ireland has gone

0:40:210:40:25

to those two departments, £72

million to the Department of Health,

0:40:250:40:33

£38 million to the Department for

Education.

Good you not have used in

0:40:330:40:36

to ease the pressure on that Block

Grant? You money will come and go

0:40:360:40:41

but as long as that Block Grant

keeps reducing the pain will

0:40:410:40:46

continue to be felt.

The Block Grant

consists of the money that would

0:40:460:40:50

have been voted by Parliament as

part of the normal procedure plus

0:40:500:40:55

the additional money which has been

put into it, £410 million. The

0:40:550:41:00

pressure has been eased on the Block

Grant. Look at the reaction in

0:41:000:41:05

Scotland and Wales, the fact that we

were able to get additional

0:41:050:41:10

resources for Northern Ireland while

MPs for those two parts of the UK

0:41:100:41:13

were not able to do so.

That is not

comfort to those families out there

0:41:130:41:17

who will face £22 per month average

increase in regional rates, where

0:41:170:41:21

you are aware that was coming down

the track, where you consulted?

0:41:210:41:26

Everybody was where. The proposal in

December was that the increase in

0:41:260:41:32

rates for businesses and households

would be in the region of 10% as a

0:41:320:41:37

result of the negotiations we had

with the Government, and also

0:41:370:41:41

pointing out where additional money

could be found and where savings

0:41:410:41:46

could be made, we succeeded in

having the increase for businesses

0:41:460:41:50

maintained at 1.5% and four

households at less than half of 10%.

0:41:500:41:55

But still a lot of people will feel

let down. The Secretary of State has

0:41:550:42:01

gone be on the executive policy, the

increase is hefty, £22 is a lot of

0:42:010:42:07

money.

It has £22 over the new, less

than £1 per week.

But this only half

0:42:070:42:13

of the equation.

There is council

rates as well. If you look at the

0:42:130:42:20

increase in the regional rate that

is commencing that with what

0:42:200:42:22

councils felt they had to do with

inflation. Households ought to look

0:42:220:42:29

at where the starting off point was,

that was for businesses, which would

0:42:290:42:35

have been a tragedy, 10%, and for

households, 10%, businesses will

0:42:350:42:43

face 1.5% increase, households, 4.5%

increase. The other important thing

0:42:430:42:47

is that the small business rates

relief scheme introduced when I was

0:42:470:42:53

finance minister and set to end this

year will now be continued.

As the

0:42:530:42:57

ship of things to come? This is left

to Westminster there will be more

0:42:570:43:02

pain for the people of Northern

Ireland, charges on lots of things?

0:43:020:43:05

Is that what we can expect? The last

Sinn Fein minister did not bring

0:43:050:43:12

through a budget at all. Descartes

from the sidelines but at least

0:43:120:43:20

there is now a budget available.

Sinn Finn failed. The issue is this

0:43:200:43:28

budget and how it will affect

people.

What is in this particular

0:43:280:43:32

budget is first of all, additional

money, scrutiny of the kinds of tax

0:43:320:43:37

increases that the Government had

been contemplating and which have

0:43:370:43:42

not materialise, but as a result of

the direct input which my party has

0:43:420:43:47

had in negotiations with ministers,

discussion with several servants,

0:43:470:43:52

that leverage we have used because

of our voting ability in the House

0:43:520:43:56

of Commons.

Let us talk about the

additional money, infrastructure,

0:43:560:44:02

£200 million, who will decide where

that goes?

0:44:020:44:08

that goes?

Some of the capital

projects have already been through

0:44:080:44:12

all the process, business cases,

authorisation, procurement, etc,

0:44:120:44:17

those projects will benefit from

this infrastructure money. There are

0:44:170:44:22

some infrastructure projects which

are not yet have that approval and I

0:44:220:44:25

understand that your Street

interchange might be one of them and

0:44:250:44:28

that will require further.

0:44:280:44:38

that will require further. -- York

Street interchange.

0:44:380:44:44

There are areas of expenditure which

still need ministerial approval. In

0:44:440:44:49

the absence of a minister in the

Assembly then the Government in the

0:44:490:44:53

budget statement has committed that

that will take whatever action is

0:44:530:44:58

required to fulfil its

responsibilities to the people of

0:44:580:45:01

Northern Ireland.

Are you saying

behind the scenes you will have a

0:45:010:45:04

big say in that? People think you

may look after pet DUP projects.

0:45:040:45:09

Look at our record to date. When we

had the leverage with the Government

0:45:090:45:14

we did not go after pet food Mac

projects. We did not go after things

0:45:140:45:19

which would give Nat -- give narrow

political gain.

Can you ensure some

0:45:190:45:31

kind of transparency around this

process? It is not good to be a case

0:45:310:45:35

of the Treasury and the DUP

disappearing behind a door?

There

0:45:350:45:40

has been total transparency so far,

everybody knows where the additional

0:45:400:45:44

money obtained will be spent. We

know which department that is going

0:45:440:45:49

on. It is going to go on health

transformation, education budget,

0:45:490:45:57

infrastructure, mental health, all

of that has been highlighted. There

0:45:570:46:01

has been total transparency, zero

secrets behind the door deals. This

0:46:010:46:07

is the important thing, our guiding

principle, and all of those big or

0:46:070:46:10

she shoulds with the Government we

will be looking at how that

0:46:100:46:14

expenditure can be best spent with

the people of Northern Ireland.

And

0:46:140:46:22

the pay of MLAs?

We have had

discussions with her. We supported

0:46:220:46:30

the report. We have said that you

cannot, because MLAs are not

0:46:300:46:39

fulfilling all of the functions

which the ought to be fulfilling,

0:46:390:46:43

because of no fault of their own,

the fault of Sinn Fein, you cannot

0:46:430:46:48

at the same time keep being Sinn

Fein members at Westminster as they

0:46:480:46:52

were fulfilling all the duties. She

also knows that Westminster is

0:46:520:47:00

giving millions of pounds to Sinn

Fein MPs who are not doing their job

0:47:000:47:04

and if we are going to have any

balance in this we have got to see

0:47:040:47:08

those two things.

0:47:080:47:12

Sammy Wilson, thank you.

0:47:120:47:13

Let's turn to our commentators

0:47:130:47:14

Andree Murphy and Peter Shirlow.

0:47:140:47:22

What is your assessment of the

budget? In the long-term it is a key

0:47:230:47:28

crease in real terms. The extra

money that the DUP has got is

0:47:280:47:33

welcome. There has been a series of

cuts over time. 400 billion has gone

0:47:330:47:38

out of policing. One of the

disappointing things with the

0:47:380:47:46

budget, clearly we have social care

responsibilities, health and

0:47:460:47:50

educational responsibilities. Ibiza

to see a budget of except

0:47:500:47:53

entrepreneurship, the economy, those

sectors in the economy that start to

0:47:530:47:59

stability growth. As much as I am

concerned about hostility I am also

0:47:590:48:04

concerned how can we have political

thinking about the economy?

How

0:48:040:48:09

worried should we be that the

Secretary of State went further than

0:48:090:48:13

executive policy in terms of raising

the regional rate and leaving some

0:48:130:48:17

families facing a hike of £22?

You

need to put that in the context of

0:48:170:48:24

severe pressures on working families

and people relying on benefits. You

0:48:240:48:28

are talking about cruel Tory

policies in terms of capping child

0:48:280:48:31

benefit, in terms of many of the

other things that have been

0:48:310:48:35

mitigated in the past after fresh

start, I be good to see the

0:48:350:48:40

continuation of that mitigation for

those on the most income? That is a

0:48:400:48:44

time-limited policy. We are not sure

about that. All of society is going

0:48:440:48:51

to be looking now and wondering, who

is going to be taking responsibility

0:48:510:48:54

in the absence of ministers? Are the

DUP going to be benefiting? If that

0:48:540:48:59

happens there will be a political

cost around that. But there is a

0:48:590:49:04

wider societal impact as the Irish

Government going to have some impact

0:49:040:49:09

on the devolved issues as well?

There is that accountability now as

0:49:090:49:15

to who is good to be making these

decisions behind the scenes and food

0:49:150:49:18

to to if they get it wrong?

This is

a period that the DUP this with the

0:49:180:49:23

Government, they will have an

influence, Sammy has said he

0:49:230:49:27

believes that as an influence for

the entire society. The media and

0:49:270:49:33

others in society can comment on

that. What is also important is that

0:49:330:49:38

we understand that this is a point

in civic society, we need people

0:49:380:49:42

more than politicians to talk about

mental health issues and how we

0:49:420:49:46

build the economy and build more

diverse economic sectors, it is not

0:49:460:49:51

just politicians that are

responsible, what we also want to do

0:49:510:49:54

as a society.

0:49:540:49:59

Thanks to you both for now.

0:49:590:50:00

Well, while there may be a degree

of greater certainty around funding

0:50:000:50:03

it doesn't solve the problems

in the Policing Board.

0:50:030:50:05

While Stormont doesn't sit,

the board's MLAs can't

0:50:050:50:07

play their part which essentially

means the board can't

0:50:070:50:10

effectively oversee the PSNI.

0:50:100:50:11

It's been that way for a year and

set to continue for some time yet.

0:50:110:50:15

I asked the chair of the board

Anne Connolly what it was like to be

0:50:150:50:19

in charge of a powerless board.

0:50:190:50:25

It is disgraceful that we are in

this situation. The police budget is

0:50:250:50:33

732 million approximately, but is a

lot of public money to be spent in

0:50:330:50:37

one year. What other service would

not have proper oversight and

0:50:370:50:40

accountability structures in place?

It is not acceptable. That is wrong.

0:50:400:50:45

We do not hear a lot about it.

People may be to not understand that

0:50:450:50:49

that is what is happening. I find it

very distressing that here we are,

0:50:490:50:56

doing our best, but we have no legal

mandate. We are not doing the job

0:50:560:51:02

that the board should be doing.

There's the problem that is the

0:51:020:51:06

public probably have not noticed

over the past 14 months that there

0:51:060:51:11

has been normal Policing Board in

operation because the face of

0:51:110:51:14

policing has not changed for them?

In some respect that is right, they

0:51:140:51:19

have not noticed, that is because

the nine members have got together

0:51:190:51:22

and kept the ship running. We have

had a number of public seminars

0:51:220:51:27

which have been very successful.

We

have an average 70 people attending

0:51:270:51:34

each seminar. Have you been shouting

from the rooftops about that?

We

0:51:340:51:39

have been making noises but members

of the public tend to pick and

0:51:390:51:42

choose areas that the think, there

are other issues, the policing plan,

0:51:420:51:52

that must be approved by the board,

we cannot do that. We have two

0:51:520:51:56

brought over from last year. The

board has responsibility in terms of

0:51:560:52:02

estates management, financial and

human resources, senior appointments

0:52:020:52:04

of police officers, senior staff, we

cannot do that.

What in practical

0:52:040:52:11

terms will not be happening because

we do not have a board?

We do not

0:52:110:52:16

have a policing plan for this year.

We should be looking at what are the

0:52:160:52:21

current issues for policing. We

cannot plan ahead with the Chief

0:52:210:52:26

Constable and discuss how we might

do things. We cannot have monthly

0:52:260:52:31

board meetings. We do not have

committee meetings which are the

0:52:310:52:36

areas where we really get into the

detail around various different

0:52:360:52:38

alias. What about appointments?

We

cannot do that at senior level. Are

0:52:380:52:44

there high ranking policing

positions which remain and fills

0:52:440:52:48

because we give have a fully

constituted board?

No. At the board

0:52:480:52:52

we have one key post on the staff

side which has been vacant for

0:52:520:52:57

nearly two years? That is the head

of resources. That is a very key

0:52:570:53:02

role. We have a cedar officer who is

on secondment, who should be coming

0:53:020:53:08

back, and probably will come back,

but that has to be agreed by the

0:53:080:53:13

board, but we cannot take a decision

around that post. If another post

0:53:130:53:17

comes up in the near future we

cannot deal with that either.

In

0:53:170:53:21

terms of what the Secretary of State

could do to alleviate this what are

0:53:210:53:25

you telling her? What are the

options facing her? It looks as if,

0:53:250:53:29

according to the DUP, we may not

have our institutions back this year

0:53:290:53:32

or maybe even next year.

The options

needs to be presented to her. The

0:53:320:53:41

option of simply bringing back the

MLAs is not there any more without

0:53:410:53:44

change in legislation. My belief is

the board has been around for 16

0:53:440:53:49

years, we should be looking at what

works well and what does not work

0:53:490:53:54

well, what other organisation would

not be reviewed and 16 years

0:53:540:53:57

Christmas the police has undergone

major change in 16 years but the

0:53:570:53:59

board has not. We need to look at

the options, somebody needs to draw

0:53:590:54:05

that up. It is not my responsibility

to tell her what to do this to what

0:54:050:54:09

I am telling her to do is get a

properly constituted board so that

0:54:090:54:13

we can get on with it. What could

that look like? It could look like

0:54:130:54:17

what it looked like before and I

would have no problem about, members

0:54:170:54:22

from the Assembly were good

hard-working members, we work well

0:54:220:54:25

together. It could be a combination.

Are you saying MLAs sitting on a

0:54:250:54:32

board without an executive at

Stormont?

That was an option in the

0:54:320:54:36

past, it is not at the moment, I do

not think that is a good option.

0:54:360:54:40

Policing has progressed and matured

and I would hate to see the police

0:54:400:54:44

board become a place for MLAs to

have their arguments. I do not think

0:54:440:54:49

that would be right. It is for the

Secretary of State to determine

0:54:490:54:55

whether it is a combination of MLAs

and MPs or whatever.

Our politicians

0:54:550:55:00

making enough noise about the fact

that there is not a fully costed

0:55:000:55:05

cheated Policing Board?

One or two

who have made a noise have blamed

0:55:050:55:12

the nine of us who are doing our

best and saying why are we not doing

0:55:120:55:16

this or that? We have to follow the

legislation. The Chief Executive is

0:55:160:55:21

the accounting officer, they cannot

go out side public finance and

0:55:210:55:25

accountability rules. Generally

speaking they have been fairly

0:55:250:55:32

quiet. There has not been a major

storm and that has been wrong

0:55:320:55:40

because we have been keeping it

going but it is not satisfactory. We

0:55:400:55:44

have reports sitting there that have

not been advances, recommendations

0:55:440:55:49

not taken forward.

If you are still

sitting in this cheer in one year

0:55:490:55:53

and we still do not have the

institutions back and you are

0:55:530:55:57

effectively running a toothless

board, Simon Hamilton has suggested

0:55:570:56:01

it would be maybe two years, what

impact would that have on policing?

0:56:010:56:06

It has already had a negative

impact. The police are wanting

0:56:060:56:10

accountability. Anything we have

asked them to do they have done that

0:56:100:56:16

we can't make big decisions so do

you really believe that?

In a sense

0:56:160:56:19

they have nobody looking over their

shoulder, they could be in a good

0:56:190:56:24

place.

They could be in a good place

but that is what they tell us. It

0:56:240:56:29

has a responsibility, the

responsibility of Government, to

0:56:290:56:31

ensure that there is properly

accountability for all public

0:56:310:56:36

servants. The police should not be

any different. The police spent a

0:56:360:56:40

lot of public money. I don't leave

it would be satisfactory to be

0:56:400:56:43

sitting like this in one year. As

time goes on more and more posts

0:56:430:56:49

become vacant, you end up with a

service that is having more and more

0:56:490:56:53

people acting up into positions,

that is not satisfactory for long

0:56:530:56:57

term change and moving things

forward.

You are off to Washington

0:56:570:57:02

this week along with the Chief

Constable, what message will you be

0:57:020:57:06

bringing across the Atlantic about

the state of policing here in light

0:57:060:57:09

of the challenges ahead?

I do not

want to see all of the good in

0:57:090:57:14

policing fall and it could do. The

longer this goes on the more likely

0:57:140:57:18

the police are to get carefully

about the entire issue, there is not

0:57:180:57:22

the board to come to. I do not want

to see that, my message would be, we

0:57:220:57:27

need a board up and running as soon

as possible, not some makeshift

0:57:270:57:32

arrangement, something sustainable

that will drive forward the issues

0:57:320:57:36

that we need to drive.

Do you think

that the good work could

0:57:360:57:48

that the good work could unravel in

a sense this mumble continues?

Of

0:57:480:57:50

course it can. Any organisation

which is left without having to

0:57:500:57:52

report openly and unaccountably to

the board and to the public will

0:57:520:57:55

eventually more and more people will

start to do their own thing and that

0:57:550:57:57

gets very difficult. It is not

acceptable in a democracy that we

0:57:570:58:00

have public money being spent and

not properly accounted for.

0:58:000:58:04

Anne Connolly, chair

of the Policing Board,

0:58:040:58:06

speaking to me on Friday.

0:58:060:58:08

Our guests are still with us.

0:58:080:58:09

How worried should we be that a key

plank in the reform of policing

0:58:090:58:14

here has been allowed to drift?

0:58:140:58:22

National confidence was already. The

Policing Board and the police

0:58:220:58:31

ombudsman 's office, first of the

police ombudsman has been under

0:58:310:58:36

resourced, and this rearguard

action, and now the Policing Board,

0:58:360:58:45

there are strategic issues around

nationalists confidence in policing

0:58:450:58:48

and that for the overall Peace

Process is worrying.

How surprised I

0:58:480:58:52

knew that this has been allowed?

It

is not surprising. The status at the

0:58:520:59:02

moment is the inability to deliver

the Belfast Agreement. This is

0:59:020:59:05

critically important because we are

in the fees of fresh start, the

0:59:050:59:12

process about tackling

paramilitaries, and alternatively to

0:59:120:59:17

deliver justice, already things that

are positives are not going to

0:59:170:59:21

happen. An example of the Belfast

Agreement being slightly eroded.

We

0:59:210:59:27

will be put there. Fine too. Plenty

of food for thought for the coming

0:59:270:59:32

will be put there. Fine too. Plenty

week. Now it is

0:59:320:59:35

That's all we have time for.

0:59:350:59:37

My thanks to Susan Kramer, Siobhan

McDonagh and to Bob Blackman.

0:59:370:59:39

And with that it's back to Sarah.

0:59:390:59:41

Welcome back.

0:59:410:59:42

The Chancellor's been out

and about this morning,

0:59:420:59:44

setting out his stall ahead

of the Spring Statement on Tuesday.

0:59:440:59:47

Here's what he told Andrew Marr.

0:59:470:59:48

There is light at the end

of the tunnel because what we are

0:59:480:59:52

about to see is debt starting

to fall after it's been growing

0:59:520:59:56

for 17 continuous years.

0:59:560:59:58

That's a very important moment

for us, but we are still

0:59:581:00:01

in the tunnel at the moment.

1:00:011:00:02

We have to get debt down.

1:00:021:00:06

We have got all sorts of other

things we want to do.

1:00:061:00:09

We've taken a balanced approach over

the last couple of fiscal events.

1:00:091:00:12

Using flexibility that we had

to continue paying down debt,

1:00:121:00:18

but also to provide additional

support to our public services,

1:00:181:00:21

to invest in Britain's future

and to reduce taxes for families

1:00:211:00:24

and small businesses

who are feeling the pressure.

1:00:241:00:28

Also appearing on the Andrew Marr

programme, the Shadow Chancellor

1:00:281:00:31

John McDonnell called

on the government to end

1:00:311:00:33

its austerity programme.

1:00:331:00:40

One thing he has done is he has

shifted the deficit onto the

1:00:401:00:43

shoulders of NHS managers, onto

shoulders of head teachers, and onto

1:00:431:00:48

the shoulders of local government

leaders and these Conservative

1:00:481:00:53

council leaders now are saying that

they are facing a financial crisis

1:00:531:01:00

because the government have had

cutbacks. This is not a matter of

1:01:001:01:05

celebration. I think he should come

into the real world because the

1:01:051:01:10

resolution foundation said in their

report today, 11 million people now,

1:01:101:01:13

not just the poorest but those just

about managing, will be hit next

1:01:131:01:16

month by the cuts in support they

get to the benefit system, so this

1:01:161:01:21

is not a matter for celebration by

any means.

To unpick what we can

1:01:211:01:26

expect in the spring statement and

other stories next week, the panel

1:01:261:01:29

are still with me. We had the

Chancellor saying there is light at

1:01:291:01:34

the end of the tunnel. How much

pressure does is put on him from his

1:01:341:01:38

own side let alone from the

opposition to spend some more money?

1:01:381:01:41

There's an interesting split in the

Conservatives, those who say now we

1:01:411:01:45

have a lemonade of the current

budget deficit on day-to-day

1:01:451:01:48

spending, we should take a chance to

invest heavily in infrastructure to

1:01:481:01:51

give the NHS more money, to spend

money on schools, and then you have

1:01:511:02:01

the fiscal conservatives like Philip

Hammond to say actually debt is

1:02:011:02:06

still 84% of GDP, we have got to

start delivering overall surplus is

1:02:061:02:12

not borrowing money to get it down

because we face economic economic

1:02:121:02:14

risks from Brexit. We know Philip

Hammond does not look optimistically

1:02:141:02:20

at that. And an ageing population on

those pressures, so when things

1:02:201:02:23

start to seem as if they are

improving, you can't reduce the

1:02:231:02:28

momentum.

It was interesting early

on the programme, talking to Sam

1:02:281:02:35

Gyimah, he said students thought

austerity was the ideological

1:02:351:02:39

position of the Conservative Party,

not a practical necessity. So if now

1:02:391:02:45

we are reaching a point where there

is potentially more money to spend,

1:02:451:02:49

politically would be wise?

It is

because if the Conservatives failed

1:02:491:02:56

to establish this narrative which

they have been trying to form long

1:02:561:02:59

time, under Theresa May they have

abandoned it, this idea that living

1:02:591:03:02

within 1's means as a country is an

end to itself, I'm not sure what

1:03:021:03:09

will separate them from the Labour

ideology. If they absolutely abandon

1:03:091:03:14

the point they have to be careful

about how they spend their money,

1:03:141:03:18

they could pledge 10 billion to one

sector, and the Labour Party will

1:03:181:03:23

pledge 100. If they cannot make that

case it is responsible to be

1:03:231:03:30

spending money responsibly because

otherwise if you don't pay off your

1:03:301:03:33

debt, it will mean higher taxes on

future generations, these students

1:03:331:03:38

and their children have lost that

political argument already.

The

1:03:381:03:42

defining political argument of this

premiership of Theresa May for the

1:03:421:03:46

many and not for the few, are the

fiscal messages we are hearing from

1:03:461:03:50

the Chancellor, do they relate to

that?

Not in the slightest. You

1:03:501:03:55

heard on the Andrew Marr programme,

giving a receptacle slap in the

1:03:551:04:02

face, the author of the just about

managing speech, Mick Timothy is

1:04:021:04:09

going to try to beat up the

Chancellor on behalf of the Prime

1:04:091:04:14

Minister's behalf, so those tensions

will remain. I think the Chancellor

1:04:141:04:18

is even more anal-retentive on the

purse strings at the moment simply

1:04:181:04:22

because of the government, the

Tories don't have a majority. That

1:04:221:04:27

means any single minority interest

who can scrape together ten or 12

1:04:271:04:33

Tory MPs, you can force the

government to do a U-turn and they

1:04:331:04:37

are piling up from defence spending,

a strong Tory bid coming down the

1:04:371:04:43

line on Universal Credit, putting

back 3 billion into it. IDS, the

1:04:431:04:52

socially conservative touchy-feely

end of the party, to the NHS,

1:04:521:04:58

tuition fees, every single one of

those minority interests will want

1:04:581:05:01

some sort of salvation. Now the

Chancellor announces bigger that £10

1:05:011:05:07

million -- £10 billion a year more

yet to play with.

Now usually at

1:05:071:05:11

this point we are talking about the

word Brexit and it does not come up

1:05:111:05:19

yet and we can't

1:05:191:05:25

yet and we can't ignore it it has

been a big Brexit week.

Yes, we've

1:05:251:05:32

heard Philip Hammond tell us

financial services will have to form

1:05:321:05:39

the ultimate deal we get from the

EU, and we've also heard the EU's

1:05:391:05:43

guidelines. They are,

unsurprisingly, taking a hard line.

1:05:431:05:50

Those two things have happened.

Another interesting thing, there was

1:05:501:05:57

an interesting appointment that

happened in the EU last

1:05:571:06:11

happened in the EU last week,

Jean-Claude Juncker's write man

1:06:111:06:12

became secretary-general of the

commission. There is a lot of

1:06:121:06:17

disquiet amongst the MPs about this

from across the European Union, but

1:06:171:06:22

also political divides within the

EU, and tomorrow they are demanding

1:06:221:06:27

some answers in the European

Parliament about this particular

1:06:271:06:32

appointment and we, the Brexit

nerds, we'll look at it very

1:06:321:06:35

carefully. It raises some

interesting questions and

1:06:351:06:38

transparency and accountability

within the European framework.

The

1:06:381:06:43

international trade Secretary Liam

Fox is off to Washington at the very

1:06:431:06:47

time the US president is threatening

tariffs on steel and aluminium and

1:06:471:06:52

it's an interesting one for British

government because Trump has said

1:06:521:06:56

allies can come and make their case

to be exempted from this and Canada

1:06:561:06:59

and Mexico have been, but we should

not be going separately as the UK

1:06:591:07:04

because we are part of the European

Union at the moment, but if we can

1:07:041:07:07

cut a deal, how would that go down

in Brussels?

Conservatives like Liam

1:07:071:07:11

Fox said for years once we are

outside the EU the advantages is we

1:07:111:07:18

can get beneficial trade deals with

major economies like the USA, and

1:07:181:07:22

now he has the chance to test Donald

Trump's words, so there's been lots

1:07:221:07:27

of rhetoric about Donald Trump about

you guys will get a big trade deal,

1:07:271:07:32

but in reality he's always been a

protectionist on trade. Will you

1:07:321:07:36

make an exception for Britain? Does

he think we are a significant and

1:07:361:07:40

economy to make that case? If Liam

Fox could get something, it would be

1:07:401:07:44

a win for the Brexiteers. The

government postponed the boat on a

1:07:441:07:50

customs union because they were

worried about losing it on the floor

1:07:501:07:53

of the Commons after the Labour

shift full support they can get a

1:07:531:07:56

concession, it would help.

A

potential windfall Liam Fox but

1:07:561:08:00

fraught with danger. If he gets a

deal, the EU will be furious and

1:08:001:08:04

that could affect the Brexit

negotiations. If he doesn't come it

1:08:041:08:07

will be rather embarrassing.

He

can't get a deal until 2021, an

1:08:071:08:11

awful long time away. We remain

within the EU's tariffs regime until

1:08:111:08:21

2021 because that is what we wanted.

New Year's Eve 2020. There ain't a

1:08:211:08:29

huge amount the government can do.

If the government could broker a

1:08:291:08:32

deal, there's talk of doing this,

not country by country, but the Port

1:08:321:08:39

Talbot manufacturers, high-density

steel used to warships, he could try

1:08:391:08:46

to broker some sort of exemption

with that, but it will interview

1:08:461:08:49

read the EU and give us an

1:08:491:08:56

read the EU and give us an even

worse deal. I don't think Liam Fox

1:08:571:08:58

I'm afraid we'll win this debate.

The big story with the Labour Party

1:08:581:09:02

the moment of course is the election

for their new general secretary. The

1:09:021:09:08

founder of momentum standing against

Jennie Formby from Unite. This is

1:09:081:09:12

not the left and right battle we

have been used within the Labour

1:09:121:09:15

Party the two very strong

significance figures from the left

1:09:151:09:18

of the party battling it out to take

over general secretary. Does it

1:09:181:09:22

matter which one of them wins and

how this proceeds for the Labour

1:09:221:09:26

Party?

It matters because you have

two rival conceptions about the

1:09:261:09:30

Labour Party should be. The view of

momentum is you need more power is

1:09:301:09:36

transferred to members giving

members greater influence over

1:09:361:09:40

policy and the trade unions still

have half of the boat on Labour

1:09:401:09:44

Party policy which act as a block

and gives the general secretary huge

1:09:441:09:48

power and then you have the Labour

Party founded by the trade unions,

1:09:481:09:54

we are nothing without the trade

unions, of course they have to be at

1:09:541:09:56

the centre of the Labour Party and

therefore it is entirely appropriate

1:09:561:10:01

Jennie Formby should become the new

party general secretary, but this is

1:10:011:10:03

a fascinating element and the left

have defeated all of the internal

1:10:031:10:07

opponents and it is now the split

within the new party establishment

1:10:071:10:12

that is playing out and some will

draw comparisons with the Blairites

1:10:121:10:16

and Brown Knights of the past. The

two rival visions of what Corbin is

1:10:161:10:20

should mean for Labour.

With policy

and vocations? Will make a

1:10:201:10:24

difference to the of the Labour

Party or is it about who it is?

1:10:241:10:30

Small policy implications. Momentum

are about as far left as you can

1:10:301:10:34

possibly get at the moment in terms

of selling up nationalisation is.

1:10:341:10:42

Len McCluskey, unite, not perhaps

quite as hard left as momentum. I

1:10:421:10:48

think it is more the culture who

runs the party, who has controls and

1:10:481:10:56

what's fascinating is watching the

Labour moderates this week. There's

1:10:561:11:00

a few of them around. One of them

described it as predator versus

1:11:001:11:07

alien for the two terrible enemies

eating each other as the revolution

1:11:071:11:12

always eats its children will be a

great battle my feeling is the union

1:11:121:11:15

will win it. They have the muscle

and bigger numbers than momentum at

1:11:151:11:19

the moment.

Labour moderates, it's

been suggested Harriet Harman could

1:11:191:11:24

be interested in being the next

Speaker of the House of Commons. The

1:11:241:11:28

second ever female speaker of

course, but John Bercow has been

1:11:281:11:31

there for a long time although there

are allegations about bullying in

1:11:311:11:35

his office which have resurfaced

this week. Is there an opportunity

1:11:351:11:39

do you think?

Yes, would be

interesting is how these bullying

1:11:391:11:46

allegations, which are only

allegations at this stage, play out.

1:11:461:11:49

It's been talked about quite a lot

and we have talked about this in the

1:11:491:11:53

Green room actually, when John

Bercow to go but he set himself a

1:11:531:11:58

limit, coming to an end, the middle

of this year. Does that mean he's

1:11:581:12:01

now leaving his job? I think he has

immensely enjoyed it but the MPs

1:12:011:12:07

perhaps not so much on both sides.

It will be interesting to see how

1:12:071:12:12

that happens. And if it would be

Harriet Harman, how the Tory MPs are

1:12:121:12:16

going to react to her taking on as

well?

The Tory MPs don't like John

1:12:161:12:22

Bercow.

They don't like John Bercow

or Harriet Harman but for her to

1:12:221:12:31

become the speaker would be

significant. Both culturally and

1:12:311:12:33

politically. She's done more than

any other MP to advance women's

1:12:331:12:38

rights and you can see why, with

such concern about the harassment

1:12:381:12:41

allegations and bullying now at

Westminster, for Harriet Harman to

1:12:411:12:46

become the speaker would be a very

important development for the its

1:12:461:12:51

Labour MPs actually who have propped

up John Bercow. He lost the

1:12:511:12:55

confidence of his own side and if

they start to turn on him his days

1:12:551:12:58

could be numbered.

Very briefly,

Harriet Harman? Can you see it?

Yes

1:12:581:13:04

because John Bercow has about ten

Tory MP mates, plus the entire

1:13:041:13:08

Tory MP mates, plus the entire

Labour vote and will always win

1:13:081:13:09

unless the Tories can find someone

unless the Tories can find someone

1:13:091:13:12

they liked even more than John

Bercow and there aren't that

1:13:121:13:14

they liked even more than John

more public

1:13:141:13:18

they liked even more than John

Harriet Harman.

Thank you all for

1:13:181:13:21

Join me again next Sunday

at 11 here on BBC One.

1:13:211:13:24

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:241:13:28