11/12/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

A row has broken out between Number Ten and former

Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,

the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.

I feel as though I'm one of the people that

If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,

It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult

for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest

Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.

Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance

And coming up here... and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie

More political fall-out from the Renewable Heat Incentive

We'll hear from the SDLP's Nichola Mallon and the PUP's Sophie Long.

think of it as an early Christmas present from us.

We guarantee you won't be disappointed.

And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined

by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.

It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.

So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some

of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.

But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this

morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts

from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning

the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.

Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,

and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation

She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning

Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair

She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart

Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week

But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary

argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief

She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing

for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation

and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".

The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying

"If you don't like something I have said or done, please

If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."

Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.

And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see

in our film shortly, has now been formally banned

So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying

tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says

something about British politics today, that this is the most

important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are

not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they

don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being

spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street

with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet

Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row

over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,

she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten

you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the

high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.

You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky

Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul

as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.

Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they

are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in

which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's

entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is

genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she

chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that

journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life

works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the

Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney

and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government

department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold

together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the

whole Government like one department. This is just the start,

Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,

The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most

to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if

it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was

split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used

to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down

the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert

the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a

self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it

comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do

you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own

wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is

that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen

polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,

a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any

money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself

comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted

with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most

exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that

British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain

lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at

being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split

between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that

sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the

1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.

The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of

pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.

So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price

of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.

And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire

the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say

about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead

of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,

it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.

While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated

Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting

on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.

Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government

basically got its way, but it did provide a platform

for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,

We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level

of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners

that want to thwart the will of the people,

go back on it and that we don't accept the result.

I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people

It's not good enough that these things are dragged

out of the Government by opposition day motions.

I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking

Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents

I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head

above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,

you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.

I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank

you for what you are doing, party members around

the country saying thank you for what you are doing

and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.

I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,

you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak

opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised

on before we embark on such a huge issue.

Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's

side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that

if you don't stand up for what you believe in,

I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.

That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local

party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses

Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association

she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support

the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that

and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people

who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government

The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP

and we want to see a Conservative government being

I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get

on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,

Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see

how her stance is going down with the voters.

If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does

Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,

especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU

so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.

She should stick for what she believes in,

but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...

She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted

to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,

depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.

Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street

this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.

Although now we know not everyone is invited.

And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday

was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted

against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end

of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.

Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David

Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new

leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to

deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't

speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious

interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but

somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman

which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and

said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger

ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only

serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a

difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,

your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more

in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it

not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not

Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,

she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting

out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for

being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it

wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the

national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid

throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and

my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party

throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion

on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to

Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my

reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national

interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of

course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you

think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it

40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you

have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,

they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have

been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.

That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are

living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and

the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's

trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we

need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a

leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis

upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the

others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than

any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.

What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our

children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need

Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of

negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to

run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted

in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister

sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that

your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons

think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum

campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were

completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.

Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I

have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so

just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a

minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan

Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with

that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were

going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and

tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How

long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will

survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a

heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you

think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has

always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in

a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does

he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to

forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there

will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten

years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of

his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward

is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which

all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet

papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get

down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry

to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film

that a number of constituency members in those areas which are

strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was

Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.

What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects

their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very

grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because

you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great

fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on

everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've

always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying

what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and

then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised

if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the

policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say

you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing

Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't

been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my

colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that

haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have

been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well

with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's

much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street

has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm

glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what

they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm

not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still

have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.

That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really

grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will

have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument

about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to

keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be

deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's

relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this

Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you

for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever

criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn

against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,

but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,

or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result

for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping

for an early Christmas present at this week's

contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,

a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,

there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second

in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better

performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,

where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting

fewer voters than the reported number of local

Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this

week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major

issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity

is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers

were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote

against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU

by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've

spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs

the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,

or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,

eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,

a national poll released on Friday put Labour

at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy

for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories

under his leadership, including a by-election win

in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a

Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack

of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having

failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,

what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played

down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour

Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic

party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current

leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in

the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.

And we're joined now by the former mayor

of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow

Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from

second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its

deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in

this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters

switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings

that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is

like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the

Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win

tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with

the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,

but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the

national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells

going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I

think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a

plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are

going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard

Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.

When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.

John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a

massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory

governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a

disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if

Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the

EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year

and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we

are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic

disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew

the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why

are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points

behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating

went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an

election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not

grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it

will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic

alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible

economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand

basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a

commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It

is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,

particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back

and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative

manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to

the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the

broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an

MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not

going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a

couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from

Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And

I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part

of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted

to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you

don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other

27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,

why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't

think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to

get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps

millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say

we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all

Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would

suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories

are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a

bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut

through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us

that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a

33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of

the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to

make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and

not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or

whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox

fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18

months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.

The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You

weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you

have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting

rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of

policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to

govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The

idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like

takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,

yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this

summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of

the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I

want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have

got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio

at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more

money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums

add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.

They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour

Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..

Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid

off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace

compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is

decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a

society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just

the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to

contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public

are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in

the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out

clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these

things, not just ability to manage, and control these

things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money

through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150

billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier

estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR

programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can

say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we

will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just

checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do

you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn

round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get

worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we

would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will

knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill

Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going

to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise

they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the

Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans

that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in

12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will

hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for

the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do

they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to

bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your

party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we

have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the

opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good

enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the

Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and

on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending

national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian

intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now

in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be

able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are

heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the

war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the

last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the

way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we

used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is

in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually

getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.

Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking

about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying

off message, again, and the protestors attempting

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

The First Minister got back from China this weekend

to face more political fall-out from the Renewable

Add to that the PSNI statement on people linked to Charter NI

and all eyes will be on Arlene Foster as she returns

With me are the SDLP's Nichola Mallon and the PUP's Sophie Long.

And the DUP leader isn't the only one under pressure.

We'll hear live from Dublin on how the past continues to cause

difficulties for the Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams.

And with their thoughts on all of that and more,

my guests of the day are the Belfast Telegraph's Suzanne

Breen and Professer Rick Wilford from Queen's University.

Christmas can't come soon enough for the DUP leadership.

Just as they were grappling with the Renewable Heat Incentive

whistleblower's account, a new controversy around the Social

Assistant Chief Constable Stephen Martin confirmed "an individual

or individuals connected to Charter have recently been active"

The SDLP's Nichola Mallon and the PUP's Sophie Long are with me.

Welcome to you both. Nichola Mallon, first.

What has Assistant Chief Constable Martin's comments changed?

It has confirmed the concerns many of us had about the connections

between individuals or an individual within Charter NI and the UDA after

paramilitary activity. This is confirmation from the PSNI at the

most senior level. But we knew this already. We suspected it but now we

have the PSNI confirming it. The Executive can no longer take no

action in the face of it and I have reiterated our call for a suspension

of funding to this organisation pending and independent review. Is

that reasonable, Sophie von? To suspend funding to Charter NI, who

have proved they can deliver funding to deprived communities, these

allegations were made and they rightly raise concerns about what is

being done with this money. If investigation does commence I would

hope the funding can continue so those communities can continue to

receive it because they should not be punished for this. Nobody would

doubt there is a community which need support or that Charter NI has

a proven track record of delivering that support, but it is whether it

is appropriate for individuals associated with Charter NI to be

actively involved with paramilitaries. If loyalists are

offered the chance to transferred from paramilitaries to civilian life

and to contribute to society, they should abandon their role as

paramilitaries and that transition must be complete, you cannot wear

both hats as it undermines trust in genuine community organisations. So

if there is an individual who was trying to were both hats, what does

your party say? They have been offered a root out of paramilitaries

and if they continue to were both hats they will perpetuate the

stereotypes around ex-prisoners and we would be critical of that. Is

that a helpful contribution? It is, and it is not a case of trying to

were both hats, they categorically are. This is about activity in the

present and being part of an organisation drawing down millions

of public money. To be a member of the UDA is illegal, and are we

seriously saying in the light of that and confirmation from the PSNI,

there should be no action taken by our First and Deputy First Minister?

I think that is outrageous. We now have a senior police officer saying

he believes that individuals are involved in paramilitary activity,

but the Renault cases pending, no prosecutions, so it's fine for a

senior police officer to say that but one would expect if that were

the case that something would be happening to stop that it doesn't

seem to be happening. I think people are confused as to why that is the

case. That gets to the heart of this issue because people like ourselves

have had to drag information kicking and screaming from the First and

Deputy First Minister and the PSNI. The PSNI need to back this up with

evidence, it was widely reported that the First Minister and Deputy

First Minister have received briefing on these individuals so

what have they done with that? Emma Little Pengelly told me on this

programme on 9th October she's confident this organisation has

passed all the requisite She was happy about that then,

convinced that was the case then. Did you think that now needs to be

completely re-examined? Absolutely but I have no doubt it met the

government's test set by the architects of which Emma was one. We

cannot understand what there is to fear from an independent review. We

were accused of calling this organisation into disrepute and I

have been on the record acknowledging the good work by many

people in Charter NI. That review was rejected by the Assembly. It was

rejected by the Executive parties, not by the Assembly, but it is clear

that to continue to do nothing sends a clear message. The First and

Deputy First Minister are either content to back these individuals or

afraid to stand up to them. They need to answer which of those

scenarios it is. Sophie Long, what do you think the Executive needs to

do to restore public confidence? There are huge questions to be asked

of the PSNI. If they believed that key members of Charter NI are

engaged in acts of paramilitary organisations, why are they not

acting to halt some? The Executive putting pressure on the PSNI, I do

not think altering investigations censored a good message about what

is going on behind-the-scenes at Stormont. So an investigation would

serve your purposes well? If Charter NI can continue with its funding and

do its work, I have no problem with that. The Executive seem to be

trying to bury it, which will only reinforce low public trust in the

institutions and the idea that power has been shared out and they are

keen to maintain their positions while people suffer and do not trust

government. All this wrangling is getting in the way of delivering the

kind of support and an underground, so what do you say to those

individuals involved in Charter NI who may feel, and we don't want to

name names, but they may feel that Stephen Martin was referring to

them? If people in Charter NI feel that what they are doing is putting

the organisation at risk and schemes that can alleviate poverty in East

Belfast, I hope they could stand back and let those communities

flourish and not hinder them any further. What needs to happen next

as far as the Assembly is concerned? You said the Executive parties did

not agree with the independent review but they have the majority in

the Assembly. We need to have a bit of a reality check. We had Sinn Fein

this week saying public concern around this issue was imaginary, so

we need them to accept that there is a problem and to do something about

it, so we are reiterating our call following the comments from

Assistant Chief Constable Martin to suspend the funding pending

timing... Even though Sophie Long says that would be damaging

underground. It is damaged already because of the conduct by its CEO,

Dee Stitt, and then because the board did an internal review and it

has been most damaged by the inaction of the First and Deputy

First Minister in the face of this. Do you think the Assembly should be

recalled over the issue of the Renewable Heat Incentive? Yes,

because that is a fiasco. We are talking ?400 million of taxpayers

money and all I can see is inaction from the Executive, which fails to

take responsibility and there is a lack of accountability. All of those

need to be addressed. Are the opposition parties calling for a

recall of the Assembly to discuss this? The SDLP have been clear that

the First Minister should appear before the Public Accounts

Committee, she should do the right thing but if not she should be

compelled to appear. Let's hear what my guests,

Rick Wilford Have these latest comments

by Assistant Chief Constable No, all this was known about Charter

NI and key individuals in a Spotlight programme in March and get

the Executive has continued to decide to fund Charter NI and there

were a photo opportunities with members of the organisation. This

has not happened by accident, this is by design and I believe Charter

NI is funded not in spite of the paramilitary activity of some of its

members, it is funded because of that. Everybody here is saying this

is awful, wringing their hands, but this is huge hypocrisy. All this

information is in the public domain and it was known by Martin

McGuinness and Arlene Foster and they decided to fund this

organisation. The funding for Charter NI, Sophie Long said, is

doing good work on the ground. Whether individuals are actively

involved in paramilitary activity is not what the public want to see,

what that politicians agree to and that is causing a major problem in

terms of being able to continue. I think it has damaged the brand of

Charter NI, as the Chief Constable underlined, it is something we have

known since March. I think it is rather taking a sledgehammer to

crack a nut in the sense of suspending all funding to Charter

NI. There are ways and means in which both an inquiry can be

conducted and the funding streams can continue to the work is done, so

the First and Deputy First Minister need to find a middle way between on

the one hand satisfying the public appetite for an explanation, while

continuing funding, but I think the police have boxed themselves in.

Stephen Martin said live on the radio with Nolan, if they have

evidence then they need to suck it up, otherwise this is leaving a

cloud hanging over the whole organisation which may be spoiled by

a few rotten apples and it cannot be allowed to continue. That is a valid

point, is it not? Stephen Martin can save what he is saying that then you

would expect further action in terms of prosecution. There is a

difference between information and evidence that will stand up in

court, but this fiasco has robbed the Executive of having any

principled stance on paramilitaries. This week we had fake handbags, A

fuss about that at Stormont, yet an organisation with active

paramilitary members is receiving ?1.7 million of public money. Total

hypocrisy from the Executive. Well, the DUP isn't the only

party with a leader Sinn Fein's Gerry Adams has denied

that he lied in a Dail statement about the murder of a senior prison

officer in the Republic in 1983. On Thursday the murdered man's son,

Austin Stack, interrupted a Sinn Fein news conference

and accused Mr Adams of lying. We'll hear live from Dublin

in just a moment, but first here's our Dublin correspondent,

Shane Harrison. Sinn Fein calling for Northern

Ireland to get special status within the EU post Brexit, then Corston

stack intervenes. You have information that is crucial to the

investigation of my fathers murder. You took my father and his brother

in a black coat van to meet with a senior Iranian figure. I want you to

give that information to the garda. I am not interested in hearing more

of your lies. I want to reject absolutely stunned's assertion that

I told lies. I have not and I am quite content to cooperate with the

garda in this. Corston stack's father Brian, a Portlaoise prison

officer, was shot in 1983, dying 13 months later. Boston and his brother

were told that their fathers murder was wrong and an IRA member had been

disciplined. They want the Sinn Fein leader to give the irony leader's

name to the authorities. It is alleged that during the election

campaign that Sinn Fein leader e-mailed the Irish Police

Commissioner for names connected with the murder. Corston stack says

he never gave the Sinn Fein leader any names. I have tried to do my

best to help the stack family. After Gerry Adams read a statement on the

matter in the Dail, to Sinn Fein TDs with convictions angrily involved

any involvement in the murder. For the Sinn Fein leader, questions

remain. Joining me now from Dublin is

Stephen Collins from the Irish Times. This case has come back to

short -- to want Sinn Fein time and again. How much pressure is Gerry

Adams under at the moment? I'm not sure how much internal pressure he

is under that he is under pressure from the government and the enough

oil. This issue has resident -- resonance because the person

murdered was a prison officer at Portlaoise so sometimes people feel

that things in Northern Ireland do not do much damage but this does. It

puts Sinn Fein on the back foot. They are a strong opposition party,

the main opposition party because the enough oil are involved in the

government and keeping them in place, so they try to portray

themselves as the main opposition party and every now and then these

issues from the past come back to haunt Gerry Adams. It is a complex

case in which the various parties insist there is is an accurate

reflection of their knowledge of the 1983 killing. What else can Mr Adams

do to persuade people he has not done anything wrong? I don't think

there is much more he can do. His own supporters will feel he has

handled things all right, people opposed to Sinn Fein will feel this

is another example of the past of the republican movement that makes

them unfit for office, so Gerry Adams will not do anything more, he

has made his statement, the Taoiseach has called on him to give

the name to the gardai of the person he took the brothers to see, I do

not think that will happen and the controversy will rumble on until it

is replaced by the next one. There's been a lot of talk

about a transition process Will last week's news that

Martin McGuinness didn't travel to China on medical advice make

the party think more seriously about changes at the top

of the organisation? There has been a lot of talk in the

media about changes at the top of the organisation, especially

relating to Gerry Adams, the fact that Martin McGuinness could not

travel has raised questions but it is difficult for people outside the

republican movement to note if anything is going on. You can talk

to other TDs who might privately tell you what is happening in the

party or how long they believe Enda Kenny should remain as Taoiseach but

Sinn Fein are more disciplined, they don't leak or talk to outsiders

about their internal matters, so it is hard to gauge whether this is a

real issue for them but given the age of Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness,

they have to be coming close to an age where the party is looking at

the next age of leadership and that will be interesting.

Time for a look back at the week in 60 seconds.

She may have been on the other side of the world,

but the ?400 million bill for the Renewable Heat Incentive

and who was to blame for it followed the First Minister to China,

with opposition leaders challenging her handling of the scheme.

There is a place for opposition to call for ministers to consider their

positions when appropriate. Economy Minister Simon Hamilton

was sent out to firefight. She should not resign because there

is nothing going on. There was no crystallisation of the problem

during her time. David Ford sought to amend

abortion legislation To decriminalise medical provision

of -- termination of a pregnancy in cases where there is no fatal

abnormality. In London, 11 Supreme court justices

gathered to hear the case challenging the government's

authority to trigger Article 50 without seeking

the consent of Parliament. However, in the Commons,

MPs voted to start And Christmas came

early for Stormont. And as Mark mentioned there,

Arlene Foster is back from her trip to China to find herself caught up

in the major controversy over We did ask the First Minister

to take part in today's We will take a final word from Rick

and Suzanne. Arlene Foster was the Minister

in charge when the scheme was being set up and she clearly has

questions to answer. She does, it has become a kind of

trip of ministerial office since the late 1980s that ministers are

responsible for policy and civil servants for Administration and

there has been an attempt to draw a line between the two but they are

very fuzzy lines. The last time we had a precarious resignation for a

minister carry the can for officials was in 1982 when Lord Carrington

resigned over the decommissioning of a patrol vessel, so it is 40 years

since something like that has happened. I think she will take

refuge in the policy moving towards renewable sources of energy that the

administration went pear shaped and that is the fault of civil servants,

so when Nye Bevan said in the 1940s when he became minister of health,

I'm responsible for every bedpan dropped from lands end to John

O'Groats, that does not happen anymore and this will be shunted

into the administrative undergrowth and somebody there should suffer

because this is a scandalous misallocation of public money.

Ministers cannot have it both ways. They will take credit for things

that civil servants do, no minister has said if there are job

announcements it was not me, civil servants were responsible, so they

have to take the breath that as well. This has been a terrible week

for Arlene Foster. Her honeymoon period as leader is well and truly

over and the DUP will be lucky if there is no election for five years

because if there was, they would be under pressure. People are angry

that she will take refuge in Saint that she is accountable but not

responsible. Whether that line will wash with the public is another

matter but I'm sure that is the line. The issue of transparency

seems to be important. Who knew what and when, and two is benefiting from

this? We heard at the weekend that Andrew Crawford, who is a spat in

the Department, that his brother has legitimately benefited from this

scheme but if more names start emerging, a couple of days or weeks

of people who have connections with the DUP, that will bad in the

public. There was a rough around the Peter Robinson administration, the

last thing that Arlene Foster needs in this one. There

still the biggest factor. We are running out of time.

Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked

by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian

revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged

in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking

the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally

in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned

The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it

And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks

were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right

of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi

terrorists from over the border with Yemen,

didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore

Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...

This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.

The way it was interpreted left people with the impression

that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.

Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital

Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?

Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring

Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.

It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest

in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are

the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be

honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall

story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that

Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a

story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there

was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between

London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring

and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are

taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris

Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I

tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting

Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis

got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the

Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just

what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they

see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this

conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two

ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing

Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region

earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine

what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three

words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick

to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,

although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech

which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night

which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in

withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3

billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases

exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the

world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen

and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't

entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we

have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in

Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes

and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both

saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is

going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't

going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners

and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of

bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals

and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases

with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.

Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street

reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important

development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They

want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should

be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another

example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that

the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed

post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I

think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I

think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel

threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and

many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival

for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May

trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain

is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,

post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are

breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,

democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying

ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should

we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,

these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.

Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply

collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession

depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think

what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,

we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the

most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep

saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.

Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.

The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is

a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,

or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.

Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for

breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you

make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It

is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take

this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost

tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a

huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft

carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep

the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just

Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is

more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no

change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now

we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.

Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be

trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be

turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I

don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC

has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the

weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us

move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was

inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.

Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?

Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then

Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a

distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be

able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do

something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather

than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in

general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning

what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was

interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had

they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other

than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics

which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the

British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the

Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the

things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is

happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry

watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last

week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the

west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.

And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily

Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If

and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are

talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than

anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We

will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I

understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from

analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it

is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator

of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in

reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far

you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty

much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and

the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the

press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is

behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.

He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much

of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is

time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the

cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,

you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree

at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want

to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a

reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily

Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.

and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.