11/12/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


11/12/2016

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:39.:00:42.

A row has broken out between Number Ten and former

:00:43.:00:45.

Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,

:00:46.:00:49.

the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.

:00:50.:00:53.

I feel as though I'm one of the people that

:00:54.:00:55.

If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,

:00:56.:00:59.

It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult

:01:00.:01:11.

for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest

:01:12.:01:14.

Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.

:01:15.:01:17.

Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

:01:18.:01:19.

but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance

:01:20.:01:21.

And coming up here... and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie

:01:22.:01:26.

More political fall-out from the Renewable Heat Incentive

:01:27.:01:29.

We'll hear from the SDLP's Nichola Mallon and the PUP's Sophie Long.

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think of it as an early Christmas present from us.

:01:36.:01:53.

We guarantee you won't be disappointed.

:01:54.:01:55.

And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined

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by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.

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It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.

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So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some

:02:02.:02:08.

of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.

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But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this

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morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts

:02:21.:02:23.

from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning

:02:24.:02:26.

the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.

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Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,

:02:32.:02:35.

and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation

:02:36.:02:38.

She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning

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Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair

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She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart

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Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week

:02:58.:03:07.

But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary

:03:08.:03:11.

argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief

:03:12.:03:13.

She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing

:03:14.:03:23.

for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation

:03:24.:03:30.

and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".

:03:31.:03:35.

The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying

:03:36.:03:37.

"If you don't like something I have said or done, please

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If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."

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Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.

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And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see

:03:59.:04:03.

in our film shortly, has now been formally banned

:04:04.:04:05.

So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying

:04:06.:04:21.

tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says

:04:22.:04:25.

something about British politics today, that this is the most

:04:26.:04:28.

important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are

:04:29.:04:32.

not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they

:04:33.:04:35.

don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being

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spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street

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with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet

:04:46.:04:48.

Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row

:04:49.:04:55.

over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,

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she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten

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you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the

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high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.

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You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky

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Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul

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as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.

:05:32.:05:36.

Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they

:05:37.:05:40.

are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in

:05:41.:05:46.

which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's

:05:47.:05:52.

entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is

:05:53.:05:56.

genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she

:05:57.:06:01.

chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that

:06:02.:06:05.

journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life

:06:06.:06:09.

works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the

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Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney

:06:15.:06:17.

and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government

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department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold

:06:24.:06:26.

together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the

:06:27.:06:29.

whole Government like one department. This is just the start,

:06:30.:06:35.

Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,

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The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most

:06:43.:06:46.

to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if

:06:47.:06:51.

it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was

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split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used

:06:57.:07:01.

to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down

:07:02.:07:06.

the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert

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the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a

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self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it

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comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do

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you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own

:07:25.:07:30.

wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is

:07:31.:07:33.

that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen

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polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,

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a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any

:07:44.:07:47.

money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself

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comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted

:07:51.:07:58.

with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most

:07:59.:08:02.

exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that

:08:03.:08:07.

British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain

:08:08.:08:12.

lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at

:08:13.:08:19.

being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split

:08:20.:08:23.

between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that

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sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the

:08:27.:08:32.

1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.

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The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of

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pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.

:08:42.:08:46.

So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price

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of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.

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And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire

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the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say

:08:54.:08:56.

about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead

:08:57.:08:58.

of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,

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it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.

:09:01.:09:02.

While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated

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Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting

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on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.

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Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government

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basically got its way, but it did provide a platform

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for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,

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We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level

:09:27.:09:35.

of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners

:09:36.:09:38.

that want to thwart the will of the people,

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go back on it and that we don't accept the result.

:09:42.:09:46.

I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people

:09:47.:09:51.

It's not good enough that these things are dragged

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out of the Government by opposition day motions.

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I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking

:09:57.:09:59.

Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents

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I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head

:10:04.:10:11.

above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,

:10:12.:10:15.

you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.

:10:16.:10:17.

I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank

:10:18.:10:20.

you for what you are doing, party members around

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the country saying thank you for what you are doing

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and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.

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I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,

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you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak

:10:32.:10:33.

opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised

:10:34.:10:36.

on before we embark on such a huge issue.

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Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's

:10:44.:10:46.

side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that

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if you don't stand up for what you believe in,

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I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.

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That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local

:10:59.:11:01.

party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses

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Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association

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she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support

:11:09.:11:11.

the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that

:11:12.:11:14.

and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people

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who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government

:11:17.:11:18.

The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP

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and we want to see a Conservative government being

:11:23.:11:24.

I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get

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on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,

:11:33.:11:35.

Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see

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how her stance is going down with the voters.

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If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does

:11:42.:11:43.

Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,

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especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU

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so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.

:11:52.:11:54.

She should stick for what she believes in,

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but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...

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She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted

:11:59.:12:14.

to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,

:12:15.:12:17.

depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.

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Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street

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this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.

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Although now we know not everyone is invited.

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And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday

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was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted

:12:42.:12:43.

against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end

:12:44.:12:46.

of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.

:12:47.:12:49.

Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David

:12:50.:12:54.

Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new

:12:55.:13:00.

leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to

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deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't

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speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious

:13:11.:13:16.

interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but

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somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman

:13:22.:13:25.

which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and

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said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger

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ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only

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serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a

:13:40.:13:42.

difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,

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your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more

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in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it

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not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not

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Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,

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she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting

:14:05.:14:07.

out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for

:14:08.:14:11.

being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it

:14:12.:14:15.

wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the

:14:16.:14:20.

national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid

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throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and

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my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party

:14:29.:14:32.

throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion

:14:33.:14:37.

on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to

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Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my

:14:42.:14:46.

reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national

:14:47.:14:50.

interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of

:14:51.:14:57.

course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you

:14:58.:15:02.

think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it

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40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you

:15:10.:15:13.

have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,

:15:14.:15:15.

they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have

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been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.

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That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are

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living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and

:15:40.:15:44.

the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's

:15:45.:15:49.

trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we

:15:50.:15:53.

need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a

:15:54.:15:57.

leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis

:15:58.:16:02.

upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the

:16:03.:16:05.

others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than

:16:06.:16:09.

any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.

:16:10.:16:16.

What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our

:16:17.:16:20.

children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need

:16:21.:16:30.

Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of

:16:31.:16:36.

negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to

:16:37.:16:40.

run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted

:16:41.:16:43.

in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister

:16:44.:16:49.

sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that

:16:50.:16:54.

your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons

:16:55.:16:58.

think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum

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campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were

:17:02.:17:06.

completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.

:17:07.:17:13.

Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I

:17:14.:17:18.

have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so

:17:19.:17:21.

just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a

:17:22.:17:27.

minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan

:17:28.:17:31.

Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with

:17:32.:17:35.

that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were

:17:36.:17:39.

going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and

:17:40.:17:45.

tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How

:17:46.:17:53.

long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will

:17:54.:18:00.

survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a

:18:01.:18:07.

heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you

:18:08.:18:12.

think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has

:18:13.:18:20.

always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in

:18:21.:18:23.

a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does

:18:24.:18:30.

he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to

:18:31.:18:34.

forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there

:18:35.:18:38.

will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten

:18:39.:18:47.

years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of

:18:48.:18:50.

his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward

:18:51.:18:54.

is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which

:18:55.:18:59.

all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet

:19:00.:19:03.

papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get

:19:04.:19:11.

down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry

:19:12.:19:14.

to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film

:19:15.:19:22.

that a number of constituency members in those areas which are

:19:23.:19:29.

strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was

:19:30.:19:35.

Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.

:19:36.:19:39.

What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects

:19:40.:19:44.

their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very

:19:45.:19:51.

grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because

:19:52.:19:59.

you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great

:20:00.:20:04.

fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on

:20:05.:20:08.

everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've

:20:09.:20:11.

always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying

:20:12.:20:16.

what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and

:20:17.:20:23.

then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised

:20:24.:20:27.

if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the

:20:28.:20:32.

policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say

:20:33.:20:39.

you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing

:20:40.:20:45.

Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't

:20:46.:20:49.

been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my

:20:50.:20:52.

colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that

:20:53.:20:59.

haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have

:21:00.:21:06.

been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well

:21:07.:21:10.

with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's

:21:11.:21:14.

much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street

:21:15.:21:20.

has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm

:21:21.:21:25.

glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what

:21:26.:21:29.

they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm

:21:30.:21:33.

not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still

:21:34.:21:39.

have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.

:21:40.:21:51.

That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really

:21:52.:21:58.

grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will

:21:59.:22:04.

have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument

:22:05.:22:07.

about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to

:22:08.:22:15.

keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be

:22:16.:22:23.

deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's

:22:24.:22:28.

relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this

:22:29.:22:33.

Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you

:22:34.:22:37.

for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever

:22:38.:22:39.

criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn

:22:40.:22:43.

against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,

:22:44.:22:45.

but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,

:22:46.:22:48.

or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result

:22:49.:22:50.

for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping

:22:51.:22:53.

for an early Christmas present at this week's

:22:54.:22:56.

contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,

:22:57.:22:57.

a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,

:22:58.:23:06.

there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second

:23:07.:23:08.

in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better

:23:09.:23:13.

performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,

:23:14.:23:15.

where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting

:23:16.:23:19.

fewer voters than the reported number of local

:23:20.:23:21.

Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this

:23:22.:23:25.

week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major

:23:26.:23:31.

issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity

:23:32.:23:35.

is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers

:23:36.:23:47.

were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote

:23:48.:23:51.

against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU

:23:52.:23:59.

by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've

:24:00.:24:02.

spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs

:24:03.:24:05.

the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,

:24:06.:24:08.

or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,

:24:09.:24:11.

eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,

:24:12.:24:15.

a national poll released on Friday put Labour

:24:16.:24:16.

at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy

:24:17.:24:19.

for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories

:24:20.:24:26.

under his leadership, including a by-election win

:24:27.:24:28.

in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a

:24:29.:24:31.

Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack

:24:32.:24:37.

of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having

:24:38.:24:41.

failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,

:24:42.:24:43.

what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played

:24:44.:24:54.

down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour

:24:55.:24:59.

Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic

:25:00.:25:03.

party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current

:25:04.:25:06.

leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in

:25:07.:25:11.

the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.

:25:12.:25:15.

And we're joined now by the former mayor

:25:16.:25:17.

of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow

:25:18.:25:19.

Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from

:25:20.:25:27.

second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its

:25:28.:25:32.

deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in

:25:33.:25:38.

this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters

:25:39.:25:47.

switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings

:25:48.:25:53.

that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is

:25:54.:25:58.

like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the

:25:59.:26:03.

Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win

:26:04.:26:12.

tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with

:26:13.:26:15.

the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,

:26:16.:26:21.

but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the

:26:22.:26:26.

national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells

:26:27.:26:30.

going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I

:26:31.:26:34.

think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a

:26:35.:26:39.

plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are

:26:40.:26:42.

going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard

:26:43.:26:48.

Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.

:26:49.:26:55.

When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.

:26:56.:27:00.

John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a

:27:01.:27:06.

massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory

:27:07.:27:11.

governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a

:27:12.:27:17.

disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if

:27:18.:27:21.

Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the

:27:22.:27:26.

EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year

:27:27.:27:31.

and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we

:27:32.:27:36.

are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic

:27:37.:27:42.

disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew

:27:43.:27:45.

the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why

:27:46.:27:49.

are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points

:27:50.:27:55.

behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating

:27:56.:28:00.

went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an

:28:01.:28:05.

election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not

:28:06.:28:10.

grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it

:28:11.:28:15.

will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic

:28:16.:28:19.

alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible

:28:20.:28:25.

economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand

:28:26.:28:30.

basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a

:28:31.:28:33.

commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It

:28:34.:28:41.

is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,

:28:42.:28:44.

particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back

:28:45.:28:50.

and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative

:28:51.:28:54.

manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to

:28:55.:28:58.

the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the

:28:59.:29:02.

broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an

:29:03.:29:08.

MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not

:29:09.:29:13.

going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a

:29:14.:29:17.

couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from

:29:18.:29:20.

Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And

:29:21.:29:27.

I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part

:29:28.:29:32.

of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted

:29:33.:29:39.

to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you

:29:40.:29:43.

don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other

:29:44.:29:48.

27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,

:29:49.:29:55.

why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't

:29:56.:29:57.

think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to

:29:58.:30:09.

get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps

:30:10.:30:12.

millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say

:30:13.:30:18.

we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all

:30:19.:30:23.

Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would

:30:24.:30:27.

suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories

:30:28.:30:31.

are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a

:30:32.:30:36.

bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut

:30:37.:30:41.

through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us

:30:42.:30:46.

that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a

:30:47.:30:51.

33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of

:30:52.:30:56.

the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to

:30:57.:31:00.

make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and

:31:01.:31:07.

not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or

:31:08.:31:14.

whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox

:31:15.:31:23.

fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18

:31:24.:31:28.

months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.

:31:29.:31:34.

The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You

:31:35.:31:37.

weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you

:31:38.:31:40.

have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting

:31:41.:31:44.

rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of

:31:45.:31:49.

policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to

:31:50.:31:52.

govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The

:31:53.:31:59.

idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like

:32:00.:32:03.

takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,

:32:04.:32:08.

yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this

:32:09.:32:13.

summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of

:32:14.:32:20.

the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I

:32:21.:32:24.

want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have

:32:25.:32:31.

got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio

:32:32.:32:35.

at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more

:32:36.:32:40.

money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums

:32:41.:32:44.

add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.

:32:45.:32:49.

They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour

:32:50.:32:55.

Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..

:32:56.:33:03.

Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid

:33:04.:33:07.

off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace

:33:08.:33:14.

compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is

:33:15.:33:18.

decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a

:33:19.:33:23.

society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just

:33:24.:33:26.

the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to

:33:27.:33:29.

contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public

:33:30.:33:32.

are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in

:33:33.:33:37.

the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out

:33:38.:33:42.

clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these

:33:43.:33:44.

things, not just ability to manage, and control these

:33:45.:33:48.

things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money

:33:49.:33:56.

through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150

:33:57.:34:02.

billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier

:34:03.:34:08.

estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR

:34:09.:34:12.

programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can

:34:13.:34:18.

say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we

:34:19.:34:24.

will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just

:34:25.:34:28.

checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do

:34:29.:34:34.

you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn

:34:35.:34:37.

round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get

:34:38.:34:43.

worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we

:34:44.:34:46.

would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will

:34:47.:34:51.

knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill

:34:52.:34:57.

Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going

:34:58.:35:00.

to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise

:35:01.:35:03.

they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the

:35:04.:35:08.

Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans

:35:09.:35:13.

that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in

:35:14.:35:19.

12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will

:35:20.:35:23.

hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for

:35:24.:35:30.

the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do

:35:31.:35:35.

they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to

:35:36.:35:40.

bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your

:35:41.:35:45.

party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we

:35:46.:35:50.

have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the

:35:51.:35:54.

opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good

:35:55.:35:58.

enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the

:35:59.:36:01.

Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and

:36:02.:36:06.

on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending

:36:07.:36:10.

national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian

:36:11.:36:14.

intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now

:36:15.:36:19.

in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be

:36:20.:36:24.

able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are

:36:25.:36:28.

heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the

:36:29.:36:32.

war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the

:36:33.:36:36.

last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the

:36:37.:36:39.

way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we

:36:40.:36:45.

used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is

:36:46.:36:48.

in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually

:36:49.:36:51.

getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.

:36:52.:36:56.

Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.

:36:57.:37:00.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:01.:37:02.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:03.:37:05.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking

:37:06.:37:08.

about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying

:37:09.:37:11.

off message, again, and the protestors attempting

:37:12.:37:12.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:37:13.:37:21.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

:37:22.:37:24.

The First Minister got back from China this weekend

:37:25.:37:27.

to face more political fall-out from the Renewable

:37:28.:37:29.

Add to that the PSNI statement on people linked to Charter NI

:37:30.:37:34.

and all eyes will be on Arlene Foster as she returns

:37:35.:37:37.

With me are the SDLP's Nichola Mallon and the PUP's Sophie Long.

:37:38.:37:44.

And the DUP leader isn't the only one under pressure.

:37:45.:37:47.

We'll hear live from Dublin on how the past continues to cause

:37:48.:37:50.

difficulties for the Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams.

:37:51.:37:53.

And with their thoughts on all of that and more,

:37:54.:37:55.

my guests of the day are the Belfast Telegraph's Suzanne

:37:56.:37:58.

Breen and Professer Rick Wilford from Queen's University.

:37:59.:38:07.

Christmas can't come soon enough for the DUP leadership.

:38:08.:38:09.

Just as they were grappling with the Renewable Heat Incentive

:38:10.:38:12.

whistleblower's account, a new controversy around the Social

:38:13.:38:15.

Assistant Chief Constable Stephen Martin confirmed "an individual

:38:16.:38:20.

or individuals connected to Charter have recently been active"

:38:21.:38:24.

The SDLP's Nichola Mallon and the PUP's Sophie Long are with me.

:38:25.:38:32.

Welcome to you both. Nichola Mallon, first.

:38:33.:38:36.

What has Assistant Chief Constable Martin's comments changed?

:38:37.:38:42.

It has confirmed the concerns many of us had about the connections

:38:43.:38:48.

between individuals or an individual within Charter NI and the UDA after

:38:49.:38:56.

paramilitary activity. This is confirmation from the PSNI at the

:38:57.:39:00.

most senior level. But we knew this already. We suspected it but now we

:39:01.:39:07.

have the PSNI confirming it. The Executive can no longer take no

:39:08.:39:13.

action in the face of it and I have reiterated our call for a suspension

:39:14.:39:17.

of funding to this organisation pending and independent review. Is

:39:18.:39:24.

that reasonable, Sophie von? To suspend funding to Charter NI, who

:39:25.:39:30.

have proved they can deliver funding to deprived communities, these

:39:31.:39:39.

allegations were made and they rightly raise concerns about what is

:39:40.:39:44.

being done with this money. If investigation does commence I would

:39:45.:39:48.

hope the funding can continue so those communities can continue to

:39:49.:39:54.

receive it because they should not be punished for this. Nobody would

:39:55.:40:00.

doubt there is a community which need support or that Charter NI has

:40:01.:40:04.

a proven track record of delivering that support, but it is whether it

:40:05.:40:09.

is appropriate for individuals associated with Charter NI to be

:40:10.:40:13.

actively involved with paramilitaries. If loyalists are

:40:14.:40:19.

offered the chance to transferred from paramilitaries to civilian life

:40:20.:40:26.

and to contribute to society, they should abandon their role as

:40:27.:40:30.

paramilitaries and that transition must be complete, you cannot wear

:40:31.:40:35.

both hats as it undermines trust in genuine community organisations. So

:40:36.:40:41.

if there is an individual who was trying to were both hats, what does

:40:42.:40:47.

your party say? They have been offered a root out of paramilitaries

:40:48.:40:52.

and if they continue to were both hats they will perpetuate the

:40:53.:40:55.

stereotypes around ex-prisoners and we would be critical of that. Is

:40:56.:41:01.

that a helpful contribution? It is, and it is not a case of trying to

:41:02.:41:06.

were both hats, they categorically are. This is about activity in the

:41:07.:41:14.

present and being part of an organisation drawing down millions

:41:15.:41:19.

of public money. To be a member of the UDA is illegal, and are we

:41:20.:41:24.

seriously saying in the light of that and confirmation from the PSNI,

:41:25.:41:29.

there should be no action taken by our First and Deputy First Minister?

:41:30.:41:36.

I think that is outrageous. We now have a senior police officer saying

:41:37.:41:41.

he believes that individuals are involved in paramilitary activity,

:41:42.:41:46.

but the Renault cases pending, no prosecutions, so it's fine for a

:41:47.:41:50.

senior police officer to say that but one would expect if that were

:41:51.:41:53.

the case that something would be happening to stop that it doesn't

:41:54.:41:59.

seem to be happening. I think people are confused as to why that is the

:42:00.:42:04.

case. That gets to the heart of this issue because people like ourselves

:42:05.:42:09.

have had to drag information kicking and screaming from the First and

:42:10.:42:13.

Deputy First Minister and the PSNI. The PSNI need to back this up with

:42:14.:42:21.

evidence, it was widely reported that the First Minister and Deputy

:42:22.:42:26.

First Minister have received briefing on these individuals so

:42:27.:42:27.

what have they done with that? Emma Little Pengelly told me on this

:42:28.:42:32.

programme on 9th October she's confident this organisation has

:42:33.:42:35.

passed all the requisite She was happy about that then,

:42:36.:42:45.

convinced that was the case then. Did you think that now needs to be

:42:46.:42:51.

completely re-examined? Absolutely but I have no doubt it met the

:42:52.:42:54.

government's test set by the architects of which Emma was one. We

:42:55.:43:02.

cannot understand what there is to fear from an independent review. We

:43:03.:43:08.

were accused of calling this organisation into disrepute and I

:43:09.:43:11.

have been on the record acknowledging the good work by many

:43:12.:43:16.

people in Charter NI. That review was rejected by the Assembly. It was

:43:17.:43:22.

rejected by the Executive parties, not by the Assembly, but it is clear

:43:23.:43:28.

that to continue to do nothing sends a clear message. The First and

:43:29.:43:33.

Deputy First Minister are either content to back these individuals or

:43:34.:43:38.

afraid to stand up to them. They need to answer which of those

:43:39.:43:43.

scenarios it is. Sophie Long, what do you think the Executive needs to

:43:44.:43:49.

do to restore public confidence? There are huge questions to be asked

:43:50.:43:54.

of the PSNI. If they believed that key members of Charter NI are

:43:55.:44:00.

engaged in acts of paramilitary organisations, why are they not

:44:01.:44:06.

acting to halt some? The Executive putting pressure on the PSNI, I do

:44:07.:44:13.

not think altering investigations censored a good message about what

:44:14.:44:15.

is going on behind-the-scenes at Stormont. So an investigation would

:44:16.:44:24.

serve your purposes well? If Charter NI can continue with its funding and

:44:25.:44:27.

do its work, I have no problem with that. The Executive seem to be

:44:28.:44:34.

trying to bury it, which will only reinforce low public trust in the

:44:35.:44:37.

institutions and the idea that power has been shared out and they are

:44:38.:44:42.

keen to maintain their positions while people suffer and do not trust

:44:43.:44:49.

government. All this wrangling is getting in the way of delivering the

:44:50.:44:53.

kind of support and an underground, so what do you say to those

:44:54.:44:57.

individuals involved in Charter NI who may feel, and we don't want to

:44:58.:45:02.

name names, but they may feel that Stephen Martin was referring to

:45:03.:45:09.

them? If people in Charter NI feel that what they are doing is putting

:45:10.:45:15.

the organisation at risk and schemes that can alleviate poverty in East

:45:16.:45:19.

Belfast, I hope they could stand back and let those communities

:45:20.:45:22.

flourish and not hinder them any further. What needs to happen next

:45:23.:45:28.

as far as the Assembly is concerned? You said the Executive parties did

:45:29.:45:33.

not agree with the independent review but they have the majority in

:45:34.:45:40.

the Assembly. We need to have a bit of a reality check. We had Sinn Fein

:45:41.:45:45.

this week saying public concern around this issue was imaginary, so

:45:46.:45:50.

we need them to accept that there is a problem and to do something about

:45:51.:45:56.

it, so we are reiterating our call following the comments from

:45:57.:45:58.

Assistant Chief Constable Martin to suspend the funding pending

:45:59.:46:05.

timing... Even though Sophie Long says that would be damaging

:46:06.:46:10.

underground. It is damaged already because of the conduct by its CEO,

:46:11.:46:15.

Dee Stitt, and then because the board did an internal review and it

:46:16.:46:20.

has been most damaged by the inaction of the First and Deputy

:46:21.:46:26.

First Minister in the face of this. Do you think the Assembly should be

:46:27.:46:31.

recalled over the issue of the Renewable Heat Incentive? Yes,

:46:32.:46:39.

because that is a fiasco. We are talking ?400 million of taxpayers

:46:40.:46:43.

money and all I can see is inaction from the Executive, which fails to

:46:44.:46:48.

take responsibility and there is a lack of accountability. All of those

:46:49.:46:53.

need to be addressed. Are the opposition parties calling for a

:46:54.:46:56.

recall of the Assembly to discuss this? The SDLP have been clear that

:46:57.:47:02.

the First Minister should appear before the Public Accounts

:47:03.:47:06.

Committee, she should do the right thing but if not she should be

:47:07.:47:07.

compelled to appear. Let's hear what my guests,

:47:08.:47:09.

Rick Wilford Have these latest comments

:47:10.:47:12.

by Assistant Chief Constable No, all this was known about Charter

:47:13.:47:27.

NI and key individuals in a Spotlight programme in March and get

:47:28.:47:31.

the Executive has continued to decide to fund Charter NI and there

:47:32.:47:37.

were a photo opportunities with members of the organisation. This

:47:38.:47:41.

has not happened by accident, this is by design and I believe Charter

:47:42.:47:47.

NI is funded not in spite of the paramilitary activity of some of its

:47:48.:47:50.

members, it is funded because of that. Everybody here is saying this

:47:51.:47:56.

is awful, wringing their hands, but this is huge hypocrisy. All this

:47:57.:48:03.

information is in the public domain and it was known by Martin

:48:04.:48:07.

McGuinness and Arlene Foster and they decided to fund this

:48:08.:48:12.

organisation. The funding for Charter NI, Sophie Long said, is

:48:13.:48:18.

doing good work on the ground. Whether individuals are actively

:48:19.:48:22.

involved in paramilitary activity is not what the public want to see,

:48:23.:48:28.

what that politicians agree to and that is causing a major problem in

:48:29.:48:34.

terms of being able to continue. I think it has damaged the brand of

:48:35.:48:40.

Charter NI, as the Chief Constable underlined, it is something we have

:48:41.:48:47.

known since March. I think it is rather taking a sledgehammer to

:48:48.:48:52.

crack a nut in the sense of suspending all funding to Charter

:48:53.:48:57.

NI. There are ways and means in which both an inquiry can be

:48:58.:49:00.

conducted and the funding streams can continue to the work is done, so

:49:01.:49:06.

the First and Deputy First Minister need to find a middle way between on

:49:07.:49:11.

the one hand satisfying the public appetite for an explanation, while

:49:12.:49:17.

continuing funding, but I think the police have boxed themselves in.

:49:18.:49:21.

Stephen Martin said live on the radio with Nolan, if they have

:49:22.:49:27.

evidence then they need to suck it up, otherwise this is leaving a

:49:28.:49:32.

cloud hanging over the whole organisation which may be spoiled by

:49:33.:49:36.

a few rotten apples and it cannot be allowed to continue. That is a valid

:49:37.:49:43.

point, is it not? Stephen Martin can save what he is saying that then you

:49:44.:49:47.

would expect further action in terms of prosecution. There is a

:49:48.:49:52.

difference between information and evidence that will stand up in

:49:53.:49:57.

court, but this fiasco has robbed the Executive of having any

:49:58.:50:02.

principled stance on paramilitaries. This week we had fake handbags, A

:50:03.:50:09.

fuss about that at Stormont, yet an organisation with active

:50:10.:50:12.

paramilitary members is receiving ?1.7 million of public money. Total

:50:13.:50:15.

hypocrisy from the Executive. Well, the DUP isn't the only

:50:16.:50:17.

party with a leader Sinn Fein's Gerry Adams has denied

:50:18.:50:20.

that he lied in a Dail statement about the murder of a senior prison

:50:21.:50:25.

officer in the Republic in 1983. On Thursday the murdered man's son,

:50:26.:50:28.

Austin Stack, interrupted a Sinn Fein news conference

:50:29.:50:30.

and accused Mr Adams of lying. We'll hear live from Dublin

:50:31.:50:33.

in just a moment, but first here's our Dublin correspondent,

:50:34.:50:35.

Shane Harrison. Sinn Fein calling for Northern

:50:36.:50:44.

Ireland to get special status within the EU post Brexit, then Corston

:50:45.:50:52.

stack intervenes. You have information that is crucial to the

:50:53.:50:58.

investigation of my fathers murder. You took my father and his brother

:50:59.:51:03.

in a black coat van to meet with a senior Iranian figure. I want you to

:51:04.:51:07.

give that information to the garda. I am not interested in hearing more

:51:08.:51:16.

of your lies. I want to reject absolutely stunned's assertion that

:51:17.:51:22.

I told lies. I have not and I am quite content to cooperate with the

:51:23.:51:30.

garda in this. Corston stack's father Brian, a Portlaoise prison

:51:31.:51:37.

officer, was shot in 1983, dying 13 months later. Boston and his brother

:51:38.:51:45.

were told that their fathers murder was wrong and an IRA member had been

:51:46.:51:52.

disciplined. They want the Sinn Fein leader to give the irony leader's

:51:53.:51:59.

name to the authorities. It is alleged that during the election

:52:00.:52:04.

campaign that Sinn Fein leader e-mailed the Irish Police

:52:05.:52:08.

Commissioner for names connected with the murder. Corston stack says

:52:09.:52:16.

he never gave the Sinn Fein leader any names. I have tried to do my

:52:17.:52:26.

best to help the stack family. After Gerry Adams read a statement on the

:52:27.:52:33.

matter in the Dail, to Sinn Fein TDs with convictions angrily involved

:52:34.:52:38.

any involvement in the murder. For the Sinn Fein leader, questions

:52:39.:52:45.

remain. Joining me now from Dublin is

:52:46.:52:47.

Stephen Collins from the Irish Times. This case has come back to

:52:48.:52:54.

short -- to want Sinn Fein time and again. How much pressure is Gerry

:52:55.:52:59.

Adams under at the moment? I'm not sure how much internal pressure he

:53:00.:53:04.

is under that he is under pressure from the government and the enough

:53:05.:53:11.

oil. This issue has resident -- resonance because the person

:53:12.:53:17.

murdered was a prison officer at Portlaoise so sometimes people feel

:53:18.:53:21.

that things in Northern Ireland do not do much damage but this does. It

:53:22.:53:28.

puts Sinn Fein on the back foot. They are a strong opposition party,

:53:29.:53:31.

the main opposition party because the enough oil are involved in the

:53:32.:53:39.

government and keeping them in place, so they try to portray

:53:40.:53:42.

themselves as the main opposition party and every now and then these

:53:43.:53:46.

issues from the past come back to haunt Gerry Adams. It is a complex

:53:47.:53:53.

case in which the various parties insist there is is an accurate

:53:54.:53:57.

reflection of their knowledge of the 1983 killing. What else can Mr Adams

:53:58.:54:03.

do to persuade people he has not done anything wrong? I don't think

:54:04.:54:09.

there is much more he can do. His own supporters will feel he has

:54:10.:54:12.

handled things all right, people opposed to Sinn Fein will feel this

:54:13.:54:17.

is another example of the past of the republican movement that makes

:54:18.:54:21.

them unfit for office, so Gerry Adams will not do anything more, he

:54:22.:54:25.

has made his statement, the Taoiseach has called on him to give

:54:26.:54:32.

the name to the gardai of the person he took the brothers to see, I do

:54:33.:54:39.

not think that will happen and the controversy will rumble on until it

:54:40.:54:40.

is replaced by the next one. There's been a lot of talk

:54:41.:54:44.

about a transition process Will last week's news that

:54:45.:54:47.

Martin McGuinness didn't travel to China on medical advice make

:54:48.:54:50.

the party think more seriously about changes at the top

:54:51.:54:53.

of the organisation? There has been a lot of talk in the

:54:54.:55:01.

media about changes at the top of the organisation, especially

:55:02.:55:06.

relating to Gerry Adams, the fact that Martin McGuinness could not

:55:07.:55:10.

travel has raised questions but it is difficult for people outside the

:55:11.:55:15.

republican movement to note if anything is going on. You can talk

:55:16.:55:18.

to other TDs who might privately tell you what is happening in the

:55:19.:55:23.

party or how long they believe Enda Kenny should remain as Taoiseach but

:55:24.:55:29.

Sinn Fein are more disciplined, they don't leak or talk to outsiders

:55:30.:55:33.

about their internal matters, so it is hard to gauge whether this is a

:55:34.:55:37.

real issue for them but given the age of Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness,

:55:38.:55:43.

they have to be coming close to an age where the party is looking at

:55:44.:55:47.

the next age of leadership and that will be interesting.

:55:48.:55:48.

Time for a look back at the week in 60 seconds.

:55:49.:55:52.

She may have been on the other side of the world,

:55:53.:55:58.

but the ?400 million bill for the Renewable Heat Incentive

:55:59.:56:01.

and who was to blame for it followed the First Minister to China,

:56:02.:56:05.

with opposition leaders challenging her handling of the scheme.

:56:06.:56:09.

There is a place for opposition to call for ministers to consider their

:56:10.:56:13.

positions when appropriate. Economy Minister Simon Hamilton

:56:14.:56:14.

was sent out to firefight. She should not resign because there

:56:15.:56:25.

is nothing going on. There was no crystallisation of the problem

:56:26.:56:26.

during her time. David Ford sought to amend

:56:27.:56:27.

abortion legislation To decriminalise medical provision

:56:28.:56:40.

of -- termination of a pregnancy in cases where there is no fatal

:56:41.:56:41.

abnormality. In London, 11 Supreme court justices

:56:42.:56:42.

gathered to hear the case challenging the government's

:56:43.:56:45.

authority to trigger Article 50 without seeking

:56:46.:56:47.

the consent of Parliament. However, in the Commons,

:56:48.:56:48.

MPs voted to start And Christmas came

:56:49.:56:50.

early for Stormont. And as Mark mentioned there,

:56:51.:56:56.

Arlene Foster is back from her trip to China to find herself caught up

:56:57.:57:07.

in the major controversy over We did ask the First Minister

:57:08.:57:09.

to take part in today's We will take a final word from Rick

:57:10.:57:13.

and Suzanne. Arlene Foster was the Minister

:57:14.:57:21.

in charge when the scheme was being set up and she clearly has

:57:22.:57:23.

questions to answer. She does, it has become a kind of

:57:24.:57:34.

trip of ministerial office since the late 1980s that ministers are

:57:35.:57:39.

responsible for policy and civil servants for Administration and

:57:40.:57:41.

there has been an attempt to draw a line between the two but they are

:57:42.:57:48.

very fuzzy lines. The last time we had a precarious resignation for a

:57:49.:57:52.

minister carry the can for officials was in 1982 when Lord Carrington

:57:53.:57:57.

resigned over the decommissioning of a patrol vessel, so it is 40 years

:57:58.:58:03.

since something like that has happened. I think she will take

:58:04.:58:11.

refuge in the policy moving towards renewable sources of energy that the

:58:12.:58:16.

administration went pear shaped and that is the fault of civil servants,

:58:17.:58:22.

so when Nye Bevan said in the 1940s when he became minister of health,

:58:23.:58:27.

I'm responsible for every bedpan dropped from lands end to John

:58:28.:58:31.

O'Groats, that does not happen anymore and this will be shunted

:58:32.:58:36.

into the administrative undergrowth and somebody there should suffer

:58:37.:58:40.

because this is a scandalous misallocation of public money.

:58:41.:58:45.

Ministers cannot have it both ways. They will take credit for things

:58:46.:58:50.

that civil servants do, no minister has said if there are job

:58:51.:58:55.

announcements it was not me, civil servants were responsible, so they

:58:56.:58:57.

have to take the breath that as well. This has been a terrible week

:58:58.:59:04.

for Arlene Foster. Her honeymoon period as leader is well and truly

:59:05.:59:11.

over and the DUP will be lucky if there is no election for five years

:59:12.:59:15.

because if there was, they would be under pressure. People are angry

:59:16.:59:23.

that she will take refuge in Saint that she is accountable but not

:59:24.:59:28.

responsible. Whether that line will wash with the public is another

:59:29.:59:31.

matter but I'm sure that is the line. The issue of transparency

:59:32.:59:38.

seems to be important. Who knew what and when, and two is benefiting from

:59:39.:59:44.

this? We heard at the weekend that Andrew Crawford, who is a spat in

:59:45.:59:50.

the Department, that his brother has legitimately benefited from this

:59:51.:59:54.

scheme but if more names start emerging, a couple of days or weeks

:59:55.:00:01.

of people who have connections with the DUP, that will bad in the

:00:02.:00:08.

public. There was a rough around the Peter Robinson administration, the

:00:09.:00:12.

last thing that Arlene Foster needs in this one. There

:00:13.:00:16.

still the biggest factor. We are running out of time.

:00:17.:00:17.

Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked

:00:18.:00:31.

by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian

:00:32.:00:34.

revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged

:00:35.:00:36.

in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking

:00:37.:00:39.

the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally

:00:40.:00:41.

in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned

:00:42.:00:44.

The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it

:00:45.:00:51.

And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks

:00:52.:00:59.

were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right

:01:00.:01:01.

of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi

:01:02.:01:04.

terrorists from over the border with Yemen,

:01:05.:01:06.

didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore

:01:07.:01:09.

Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...

:01:10.:01:16.

This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.

:01:17.:01:19.

The way it was interpreted left people with the impression

:01:20.:01:21.

that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.

:01:22.:01:30.

Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital

:01:31.:01:32.

Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?

:01:33.:01:34.

Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring

:01:35.:01:36.

Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.

:01:37.:01:43.

It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest

:01:44.:01:49.

in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are

:01:50.:01:53.

the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be

:01:54.:02:00.

honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall

:02:01.:02:04.

story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that

:02:05.:02:09.

Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a

:02:10.:02:13.

story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there

:02:14.:02:18.

was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between

:02:19.:02:23.

London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring

:02:24.:02:27.

and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are

:02:28.:02:31.

taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris

:02:32.:02:36.

Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I

:02:37.:02:40.

tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting

:02:41.:02:46.

Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis

:02:47.:02:50.

got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the

:02:51.:02:53.

Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just

:02:54.:02:57.

what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they

:02:58.:03:01.

see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this

:03:02.:03:06.

conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two

:03:07.:03:11.

ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing

:03:12.:03:15.

Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region

:03:16.:03:21.

earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine

:03:22.:03:28.

what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three

:03:29.:03:35.

words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick

:03:36.:03:44.

to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,

:03:45.:03:47.

although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech

:03:48.:03:54.

which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night

:03:55.:03:59.

which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in

:04:00.:04:05.

withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3

:04:06.:04:10.

billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases

:04:11.:04:15.

exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the

:04:16.:04:19.

world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen

:04:20.:04:23.

and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't

:04:24.:04:27.

entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we

:04:28.:04:31.

have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in

:04:32.:04:37.

Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes

:04:38.:04:43.

and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both

:04:44.:04:48.

saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is

:04:49.:04:53.

going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't

:04:54.:04:58.

going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners

:04:59.:05:03.

and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of

:05:04.:05:09.

bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals

:05:10.:05:13.

and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases

:05:14.:05:18.

with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.

:05:19.:05:23.

Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street

:05:24.:05:31.

reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important

:05:32.:05:36.

development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They

:05:37.:05:40.

want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should

:05:41.:05:44.

be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another

:05:45.:05:48.

example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that

:05:49.:05:52.

the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed

:05:53.:05:58.

post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I

:05:59.:06:03.

think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I

:06:04.:06:07.

think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel

:06:08.:06:13.

threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and

:06:14.:06:17.

many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival

:06:18.:06:23.

for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May

:06:24.:06:27.

trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain

:06:28.:06:32.

is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,

:06:33.:06:37.

post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are

:06:38.:06:41.

breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,

:06:42.:06:46.

democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying

:06:47.:06:52.

ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should

:06:53.:06:58.

we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,

:06:59.:07:06.

these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.

:07:07.:07:10.

Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply

:07:11.:07:14.

collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession

:07:15.:07:18.

depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think

:07:19.:07:23.

what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,

:07:24.:07:27.

we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the

:07:28.:07:30.

most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep

:07:31.:07:38.

saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.

:07:39.:07:41.

Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.

:07:42.:07:46.

The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is

:07:47.:07:50.

a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,

:07:51.:07:56.

or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.

:07:57.:08:01.

Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for

:08:02.:08:05.

breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you

:08:06.:08:09.

make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It

:08:10.:08:14.

is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take

:08:15.:08:17.

this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost

:08:18.:08:22.

tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a

:08:23.:08:27.

huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft

:08:28.:08:32.

carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep

:08:33.:08:37.

the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just

:08:38.:08:45.

Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is

:08:46.:08:50.

more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no

:08:51.:08:55.

change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now

:08:56.:09:02.

we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.

:09:03.:09:08.

Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be

:09:09.:09:16.

trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be

:09:17.:09:20.

turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I

:09:21.:09:24.

don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC

:09:25.:09:28.

has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the

:09:29.:09:32.

weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us

:09:33.:09:38.

move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was

:09:39.:09:41.

inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.

:09:42.:09:42.

Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?

:09:43.:09:55.

Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then

:09:56.:09:58.

Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a

:09:59.:10:11.

distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be

:10:12.:10:17.

able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do

:10:18.:10:21.

something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather

:10:22.:10:27.

than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in

:10:28.:10:30.

general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning

:10:31.:10:36.

what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was

:10:37.:10:43.

interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had

:10:44.:10:46.

they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other

:10:47.:10:54.

than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics

:10:55.:10:59.

which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the

:11:00.:11:03.

British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the

:11:04.:11:09.

Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the

:11:10.:11:12.

things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is

:11:13.:11:16.

happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry

:11:17.:11:22.

watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last

:11:23.:11:26.

week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the

:11:27.:11:31.

west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.

:11:32.:11:38.

And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily

:11:39.:11:42.

Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If

:11:43.:11:48.

and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are

:11:49.:11:54.

talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than

:11:55.:11:58.

anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We

:11:59.:12:02.

will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I

:12:03.:12:06.

understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from

:12:07.:12:09.

analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it

:12:10.:12:14.

is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator

:12:15.:12:17.

of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in

:12:18.:12:24.

reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far

:12:25.:12:28.

you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty

:12:29.:12:33.

much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and

:12:34.:12:37.

the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the

:12:38.:12:40.

press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is

:12:41.:12:45.

behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.

:12:46.:12:50.

He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much

:12:51.:12:56.

of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is

:12:57.:13:00.

time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the

:13:01.:13:05.

cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,

:13:06.:13:10.

you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree

:13:11.:13:16.

at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want

:13:17.:13:22.

to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a

:13:23.:13:26.

reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,

:13:27.:13:28.

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

:13:29.:13:31.

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

:13:32.:13:33.

I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily

:13:34.:13:40.

Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.

:13:41.:13:43.

and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.

:13:44.:13:46.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:47.:13:53.

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