04/12/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


04/12/2016

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers are joined by Diane Abbott and Nick Clegg. Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Toby Young are on the political panel.


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Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson accepts we might continue to pay EU

:00:38.:00:44.

budget contributions even after we leave, but says

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Tim Farron says his party's dramatic win in the Richmond Park by-election

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is a vote against a so-called "hard" Brexit.

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But do the Lib Dems really want any kind of Brexit at all?

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We speak to former party leader Nick Clegg.

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Ukip's new leader says he wants to "replace Labour".

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And in Northern Ireland... because of the party leadership's

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He's balanced his flagship projects to the east

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and west of the Bann, but the demands continue

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The Infrastructure Minister, Chris Hazzard, joins us live -

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Why did the people of Richmond Park vote the way they did?

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And with me - as always - three fully paid-up members

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of the metropolitan elite - although which metropolis,

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Toby Young, Helen Lewis and Tom Newton Dunn, who'll be

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So, the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, has accepted that

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Britain might pay something into the EU budget after Brexit,

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though he says there is no reason why they should be too onerous.

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That was after the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU,

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David Davis, suggested earlier this week that Britain would indeed

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consider paying for access to EU markets after Brexit.

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Here is what Mr Johnson said on the Marr Show earlier.

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A lot of people will be watching, thinking -

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hold on a second, after Brexit, are we are going to be paying large

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amounts of money to the EU, in return for access to markets?

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Well, I've given you an indication of the kind of payments that

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My own view is, I see no reason why those payments should be large.

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And as I say, I do see a big opportunity for us to take the money

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that we're getting back and spend it on other priorities.

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Toby, the papers this morning, they are awash with the minutiae of

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Brexit, spinning whatever they have got depending on whether they are

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Remain or Leave. Is it not getting as close to ridiculous? It does feel

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a bit absurd and it is unfortunately the effect of the Government not

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announcing, not declaring what its Brexit strategy is going to be.

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Because the Dortmund has said it cannot do that without showing its

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hand in the forthcoming negotiations, it is difficult to go

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back on that -- the Government. I think we will see this fee per

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speculation for months if not years. The observer is leading with a

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couple of die-hard Remain Tories, not happy, surprise, surprise! The

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Telegraph, in Leave paper, saying the Italian Ambassador did not say

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this about Boris Johnson this week. Sky News ran the story endlessly

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last week. But Toby is right, this sort of flotsam and gets in, the

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Government has itself to blame. Yes, and we have now got Queen of Brexit,

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dirty Brexit, white, grey, hard, soft. This is about Single Market

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and that is what this is about. No wait pays more per capita into the

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budget to access this European Economic Area and that is what we

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need more clarity about. Not more than we do but a lot. More per

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capita, I believe it is 79. It pays a what! . Boris Johnson said we do

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not want to pay, only a small amount. This is the bad news that

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would suggest, this is going to continue until the Government fills

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the vacuum, which means not this year. No, probably not next year

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either because we should not expect anything revolutionary from the

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Government when Theresa May does trigger Article 50. Maybe not even

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in 2018 because we will only know the shape of the deal and what we

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get in 2019. They will have the alpine strategic goals. No, I don't

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think they will do. They can keep going along with this line of the

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best possible trade deal and controlling immigration with maybe a

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couple more details of, we are prepared to consider contributions.

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And on that, I would suggest the BBC is misreporting Boris Johnson. I did

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not hear him at any stage this morning say he is happy with budget

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contributions, he is merely happy to contribute a small schemes like

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Rasmus. Contributing to the budget is different, it is paying billions

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potentially into a pool of money which if you are out of the EU, you

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have even less control. David Davis was talking of a bit more than that

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but it wasn't specified. It is a red flag for a lot of people who thought

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there would be more money to spend this country if we left the EU. The

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famous figure on the bus. The more they spend in other ways, the less

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there will be. That is true, but the Helen is right. It looks as though

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we are beginning to glimpse a government strategy and they are

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willing to pay to access the Single Market and a negotiation will partly

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be about how much. One aspect often overlooked is the Article 50

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negotiation is separate from a free trade negotiation. They often get

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run together and we do not know if the negotiations towards agreeing a

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free trade agreement can begin at the same time as the Article 50

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negotiations or whether they have to wait until the Article 50

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deal has been concluded before embarking on the free trade

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negotiation. They have to do that, there will be speculation about what

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that looks like 45, maybe ten years. I understand they intend to do it in

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parallel but do not take that to the bank! That is a caveat otherwise she

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would be criticising us again! After a devastating

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general election, you'd be forgiven for thinking

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that the Liberal Democrats were But earlier this week,

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the party won a stunning by-election victory in Richmond Park,

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overturning Zac Goldsmith's 23,000 The new MP, Sarah Olney,

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has even gone as far as to suggest that the result paved the way

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for Parliament to "override" Here she is talking

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to reporters after her victory. Are you still going to vote

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against Article 50, and isn't that flying in the face of what the rest

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of the country voted That's the commitment

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I made in my campaign. My by-election victory means I have

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got a personal mandate from the voters of Richmond Park

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that that is what A third of Tory Leavers

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voted Liberal Democrat yesterday because they say,

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hang about, this is not what we voted for, Theresa May

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is taking a Ukip-ish slant They want a country that is open,

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tolerant and united. It is not 48 versus 52,

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it's about the country coming together behind a moderate,

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progressive opposition I'm joined now by the former leader

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of the Liberal Democrats and former Deputy Prime Minister,

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Nick Clegg. He is now the party's

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Brexit spokesman. Welcome back to the programme. Tim

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Farron says Richmond is a rejection of Brexit and the 2015 General

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Election, even Donald Trump, which will be news to America. In what way

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does 20,000 people voting for the Lib Dems in one of the most affluent

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anti-Brexit constituencies in the country mean any of that? I think

:08:23.:08:26.

when these by-elections happen, people quite rightly both for and

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against say all sorts of things which either turn out or not to be

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true. I think clearly you cannot extrapolate from one part of

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south-west London to the rest of the country. I heard the result in South

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West Sheffield, very different in south-west London. Having spent a

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lot of time in the Richmond campaign, the most significant thing

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was not about the details of Article 50 and Single Market, it was a very

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strong feeling among those kind of people, and there are millions

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around the country, who feel that because they disagreed with the

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outcome on June 23rd, they are being delegitimised and no longer entitled

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to hold those views, they are shouted down as moaners and people

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living in denial. It is always emotion driving these things more

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than cerebral ideas. It was that emotion that came through in the

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by-election. Next week, we have a by-election in a place that voted

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60% to leave and I would suggest your party will not win that is, a

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Brexit supporter will win that comfortably. So a big Remain

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constituency votes to remain and a big Leave votes to leave. Ukip might

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win and if that happens, it might reveal that as politics becomes more

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defined buying Brexit, it is the parties with the clearest positions,

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in this case Ukip and the Liberal Democrats, who communicate more

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clearly with the public. And the mainstream parties are increasingly

:09:56.:09:58.

divided and opaque in what they really mean. We will see what

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happens. Let's look at how clear cut your party's position is. Sarah

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Olney, your new MP for Richmond, will vote against triggering Article

:10:08.:10:13.

50, what may, is that Liberal Democrat policy? No, that is her

:10:14.:10:17.

personal mandate as the clip shows that is has a mandate she feels she

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has received because that is the basis upon which she put herself

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forward to the people of Richmond. You will not vote against Article

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50? There are certain cases in which I would. If you got a second

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referendum, you would not? If I got a second and the Government would

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keep us in the Single Market, I would not. You brought this idea of

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a second referendum on the deal itself. Most EU leaders do not want

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us to leave and they are the ones we negotiate with. If they know there

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is a vote on the terms, surely they have a massive incentive to give the

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worst possible deal? This goes back to the origins of the debate prior

:10:58.:11:02.

to the vote on June 23rd. What is haunting the nation is the fact that

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the Brexit backers did not spell out what they meant. You will no doubt

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quote this and that but there is no manifesto from Nigel Farage, Michael

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Gove and Boris Johnson, United and coherent, not talking about

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television clips watched by fractions of the electorate... On

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crucial things like whether we stay in the Single Market, absolutely

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not. The official Leave campaign, the framework document widely

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covered by the media said, we want the supremacy of EU law and the

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European Court of jurisdiction the end, we want budget contributions to

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end, we want the EU's control over UK borders the end and we want the

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UK to leave the common commercial policy. A way of describing the

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Single Market. No, it is the Customs Union. The only person in British

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politics... Plenty of leaders of the Leave campaign said they wanted to

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leave the Single Market. The common commercial policy is not the Single

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Market. They talk about the Single Market, they want to leave the

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Customs Union as well. They want to leave the Single Market. We should

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be really clear, why is it in that case that ministers from this Brexit

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government do not come before Parliament now to say we stick to

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what we apparently said so clearly? They did not, it was much more

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opaque. We will rule out the Norway option. Let's look at what the

:12:27.:12:30.

leaders of your side of the campaign and the leaders of the Leave

:12:31.:12:34.

campaign said when asked about the Single Market. Can we see that now?

:12:35.:12:38.

The British public would be voting if we leave to leave the EU and

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still be the Single Market. Should we come out of the Single Market? I

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think that almost certainly would be the case, yes. Do you want is to

:12:47.:12:50.

stay inside the Single Market, yes or no? No, we should be outside the

:12:51.:12:55.

Single Market. I said to Michael Gove, after Brexit, will we be

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inside the Single Market, and he said no. He was right. We would be

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out of the Single Market, that is the reality, Britain would be

:13:05.:13:08.

quitting. Quitting the Single Market.

:13:09.:13:11.

Where was the manifesto? Where was the document? Where was the

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manifesto from the key Brexiteers, Johnson, Gove and Farrage, saying,

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British people, this is what will happen if you read the European

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Union. It was not there because it is not as if we were not warned.

:13:26.:13:29.

Dominik Commons, apparently the intellectual architect of the

:13:30.:13:33.

campaign, said it is very important we do not say what we mean. People

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watching this programme will see clearly what they said. Sorry to

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break this to you but what someone says to you and mumbles in admission

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on the cross questioning from you in a television studio watched by a

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fraction of the Electric is not the same as putting me for the British

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people a clear plan. Wear with a policy documents? It is very

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important because you have gone round in circles on this for weeks.

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Let me explain... I am trying to get you to understand reading people in

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the campaign made it clear we would leave the Single Market as members.

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Why did David Steve said after the referendum, not even before, in a

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post on this famous essay before he became Brexit Secretary, why did he

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say he bought Single Market arrangement should continue? Why did

:14:21.:14:24.

Greg Clark, a Minister when negotiating with Nissan, say, we are

:14:25.:14:27.

pursuing not only trade arrangements with the rest of the European Union

:14:28.:14:31.

free of tariffs, free of bureaucratic impediments. You know

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as well as I do that you cannot have tried very bureaucratic impediments

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other than being a member of the Single Market.

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shutter If the second referendum also important, why didn't you

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mention it? We were fighting to stay in. But you never said that if you

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lost there would have to be a referendum on the deal itself? Let's

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look at you said. It's quite, quite different

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to any other kind of vote It's not like a general election,

:14:57.:14:58.

however important they seem, that binds the hands of the next

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Parliament, for the next five years, or set expectations

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about what a government will do. Once in a generation. It is clear

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now that was only a few won. If you lost, you wanted a second? This is

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getting us nowhere. That is entirely consistent with saying that since

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the victorious side, the Brexiteers, did not spell out to the British

:15:35.:15:37.

public what Brexit means, and we still don't know what it means, we

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still have absolutely no notion if they want to pay contributions or

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not, if they want to be part of foreign policy arrangements or

:15:46.:15:48.

not... Why didn't you say that at the time? That was the 27th of

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April, one clip from the wider debate. We, as the Liberal

:15:54.:15:57.

Democrats, are quite logically saying, since the victors in the

:15:58.:16:00.

referendum, yes, they have a mandate to pull out of the European Union,

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they did not have a mandate how to do it because they did not spell it

:16:04.:16:07.

out to the British people. It is not a second referendum. It is the first

:16:08.:16:11.

referendum, or it would be the first referendum on the terms of

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departure. The terms of the new re-engagement with the rest of the

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union. The position on soft Brexit, that we would remain a member of the

:16:20.:16:24.

single market, right? Which means that we would accept free movement

:16:25.:16:27.

of people, that goes with membership? It is a bit more

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complicated than that, as you know. My own view is that there is plenty

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of scope, if this Government was intelligent about it, to say to

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other European member states, look, it is now time to grant to Britain,

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in return for continued membership of the single market, the least

:16:46.:16:52.

economically destructive form of Brexit, granted to Britain a Europe

:16:53.:17:02.

wide migration frees. We could get that? The government EU doesn't

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appear to be trying. At the moment, membership of the single market

:17:08.:17:12.

means free movement. Norway, for instance... Norway has free

:17:13.:17:18.

movement, it is even in Schengen. They have a legal ability to

:17:19.:17:22.

constrain free movement. Which they haven't done. But it is their

:17:23.:17:27.

choice, it is an entitlement. We would remain subject to the

:17:28.:17:30.

jurisdiction of the European Court? Here is the issue with the single

:17:31.:17:37.

market, I hear constantly, politicians and commentators, saying

:17:38.:17:40.

it is just a day with tariffs. The most important thing, as identified

:17:41.:17:44.

by Margaret Thatcher, is the body of rules. And that would be the

:17:45.:17:50.

European Court? Well, if you really want to get into a... It follows the

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case law. They have more discretion. They have never gone against ECJ

:17:58.:18:03.

law? It would have to be the European Court? Whether you have a

:18:04.:18:08.

direct Amaq one ruling, or another body, call is Mary all Paul eyecare,

:18:09.:18:12.

if you want to trade into a single market of rules... Call it maryjane,

:18:13.:18:21.

for all I care. You would abide by those rules. If we were to trade

:18:22.:18:26.

inside the single market, we would do so anyway. You would stay in the

:18:27.:18:32.

customs union? I would. I want to add up what this means. We remain

:18:33.:18:40.

single market membership, we continue with EU contributions, free

:18:41.:18:44.

movement of people, said the jurisdiction of the European Court,

:18:45.:18:48.

we remain in a customs union, so we can't do most of our own trade

:18:49.:18:52.

deals. You know what that is called? Membership of the EU. Know it is

:18:53.:19:00.

not. There are a number of countries in the EEA, which do make financial

:19:01.:19:05.

contributions. They have the ability for people to come in and out of the

:19:06.:19:09.

European Union. Of course, I accept, for the hardest, hardline

:19:10.:19:14.

Brexiteers... But this has always been the dilemma as a country. What

:19:15.:19:20.

is right for the prosperity of future generations is not

:19:21.:19:23.

politically convenient for the Conservative Party, what is

:19:24.:19:26.

politically convenient to them is economically self harming. What my

:19:27.:19:29.

party chooses is the least economically self harming future for

:19:30.:19:34.

our children. Given that you say you accept the result, when you add up

:19:35.:19:39.

everything that you want to happen, it is clear that you don't. You want

:19:40.:19:45.

an arrangement of soft Brexit, very little different from the status

:19:46.:19:50.

quo. You want a second referendum that would incentivise Europeans to

:19:51.:19:53.

give such a bad deal that we would vote against it, and you would

:19:54.:19:58.

encourage that? To somehow claim that the status Norway and other EEA

:19:59.:20:02.

countries have is equivalent to membership is nonsense. They have a

:20:03.:20:06.

common agricultural policy which is their own. You described Norway as

:20:07.:20:12.

powerless and voiceless. But that is not my problem, that is the problem

:20:13.:20:15.

of the Brexiteers promising, as you know, to have their cake and eat it.

:20:16.:20:19.

They have won. I am now in opposition. With victory should come

:20:20.:20:27.

clarity, responsibility and a duty to the country not to your own

:20:28.:20:32.

party. These are the ones that are hoisted by their own petard. They

:20:33.:20:38.

will claim they have an economic utopia by pulling out all the

:20:39.:20:42.

largest single market, a single market we created under Margaret

:20:43.:20:45.

Thatcher. It is not my problem that they cannot regard the Leeds resolve

:20:46.:20:50.

their own dilemma that having access to the British manufactured single

:20:51.:20:52.

market does, in one way or another, have to abide by the rules. That is

:20:53.:20:58.

not my problem, it is theirs. Your party is called the Liberal

:20:59.:21:01.

Democrats. Many people watching this will think maybe it is time for a

:21:02.:21:08.

rebrand? Just drop the Democrat bit. I don't know what you are driving

:21:09.:21:12.

at? You seem to want to fly in the face of the Democratic vote. We are

:21:13.:21:19.

saying there are choices in how we leave. Yes, some compromises, but it

:21:20.:21:28.

safeguards the safety, the clean environment, the jobs and prosperity

:21:29.:21:31.

of our children and grandchildren. If it comes to the point that

:21:32.:21:35.

anybody who suggests we put our country before the narrow lanes of

:21:36.:21:40.

Brexiteers is shouted down, we have come to a very sorry place. Thank

:21:41.:21:42.

you for joining us. Ukip's new leader, Paul Nuttall,

:21:43.:21:44.

says his party can gain at least ten And he hopes to do it at the expense

:21:45.:21:47.

of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party, which he says doesn't represent

:21:48.:21:52.

working people anymore. Some Labour MPs, particularly those

:21:53.:21:54.

in working-class Northern seats, Ellie Price has been

:21:55.:21:56.

to Barnsley to investigate. I want to replace the Labour Party

:21:57.:22:03.

and make Ukip the patriotic Ukip says it will take the fight

:22:04.:22:06.

to Labour in its very heartland, places like the north of England,

:22:07.:22:15.

places like here in Barnsley, where 70% of people voted

:22:16.:22:17.

for Brexit and where, in the last general election,

:22:18.:22:20.

Ukip came a strong second in two It is surely in the back

:22:21.:22:22.

of Dan Jarvis's mind. He has been the Labour

:22:23.:22:37.

MP here since 2011. Do you worry that they're going

:22:38.:22:40.

to vote Ukip at the next election? We should not be complacent

:22:41.:22:43.

about the fact that a resurgent Ukip could provide a significant

:22:44.:22:46.

challenge for us and we have to make The big issue here is immigration,

:22:47.:22:49.

in a town that he says He is worried Labour doesn't

:22:50.:22:54.

currently have the answers. We are not getting it

:22:55.:22:59.

quite right just yet, because we haven't demonstrated

:23:00.:23:04.

to the public that we I don't think we were able to do

:23:05.:23:06.

that in the previous parliament, and I think there is still

:23:07.:23:10.

a specific concern that people look at us and think we don't take it

:23:11.:23:13.

as seriously as they take it, because we can't ever afford to go

:23:14.:23:17.

into a general election with the public thinking we don't

:23:18.:23:19.

take the issue of Diane Abbott doesn't seem

:23:20.:23:22.

to think there should be I think if you're trying

:23:23.:23:25.

to achieve anything, it's useful to have a target,

:23:26.:23:29.

because it's quite a useful waymarker as to whether you

:23:30.:23:31.

are making progress. So, my own view is that there should

:23:32.:23:33.

be some sort of target. I think it's a bit early to say

:23:34.:23:37.

precisely what that should be, But my instinct is,

:23:38.:23:39.

if you want to demonstrate to the public that you take this

:23:40.:23:46.

very seriously, the notion that you should have some sort

:23:47.:23:49.

of target is the right one. But the plan is to park tanks

:23:50.:23:51.

on the lawns of places like this. Fresh from coming second in Ukip's

:23:52.:23:56.

recent leadership contest, she is now the chair of the party's

:23:57.:23:58.

Policy Committee. That's why we invited her to get

:23:59.:24:01.

a taste of what people A party that sticks

:24:02.:24:03.

for the working class people. I think they are standing

:24:04.:24:13.

for the beliefs of the people in the north of England more

:24:14.:24:15.

than the south of England. Her impromptu canvassing

:24:16.:24:18.

session here went well. But the challenge for

:24:19.:24:21.

the new leader, Paul Nuttall, will be to break the voting habits

:24:22.:24:23.

of generations of Labour supporters. With Paul Nuttall as our new leader,

:24:24.:24:28.

we have a real opportunity here. A Bootle man, Liverpool,

:24:29.:24:32.

working-class accent, a guy who has grown up in the North

:24:33.:24:35.

of England and can talk to people in a different way

:24:36.:24:38.

than perhaps Nigel Farage did. If Nigel Farage couldn't do it

:24:39.:24:43.

why would Paul Nuttall, who just happens to have a northern

:24:44.:24:48.

accent, make any difference? I think with Nigel standing down

:24:49.:24:51.

as leader, I think also there will be more people

:24:52.:24:59.

in the front line of Ukip. I think, perhaps rightly,

:25:00.:25:02.

we have sometimes been criticised I think that is going to change very

:25:03.:25:04.

swiftly and very dramatically. Will you have a target

:25:05.:25:10.

list here in the North? I think we will be looking to target

:25:11.:25:15.

in particular those seats where there is a Labour member

:25:16.:25:22.

of Parliament who does not want to leave the European Union,

:25:23.:25:25.

but his constituents, or her constituents,

:25:26.:25:27.

want to get out. They have got to be our top

:25:28.:25:29.

priorities, particularly if we are looking at constituencies

:25:30.:25:32.

where we ran Labour a close second Ukip came second to Labour in 44

:25:33.:25:35.

constituencies in last That was before people in most

:25:36.:25:39.

of those areas voted this With that in mind, Paul Nuttall

:25:40.:25:42.

predicts his party will have There is no floor

:25:43.:25:49.

under the Labour vote. The connection between these voters

:25:50.:25:53.

and the Labour Party The party, for so long,

:25:54.:25:55.

has dismissed their concerns and not That prediction is,

:25:56.:26:00.

I think, realistic. I think that is probably a central

:26:01.:26:03.

case, but it could be much worse. Even if it is lower,

:26:04.:26:06.

it is still probably going to be a disaster for Labour,

:26:07.:26:09.

because a big chunk of working class That means the seat will go Tory,

:26:10.:26:12.

because the Tory vote stays solid, If voters here have felt

:26:13.:26:17.

forgotten by Westminster, they may want to be careful

:26:18.:26:20.

what they wish for. Places like this will become

:26:21.:26:22.

a battle ground for two parties that I'm joined now by the Shadow Home

:26:23.:26:25.

Secretary, Diane Abbott. Welcome back to the programme. We

:26:26.:26:37.

had the new immigration statistics out this week. Let's look at the

:26:38.:26:42.

numbers on the screen. The numbers have never been higher. 650,000

:26:43.:26:49.

people came here, migrants, in the year, to June. Take away those that

:26:50.:26:55.

are leaving, it comes to a net figure of 330 5000. That level of

:26:56.:27:01.

immigration, too high, too low or about right? Any politician who

:27:02.:27:04.

thinks you can set targets for immigration has got a fool for an

:27:05.:27:16.

economic adviser. What the Labour Party is talking about is trying to

:27:17.:27:22.

bear down on the reasons immigrants come here. Without setting a target,

:27:23.:27:28.

is it too high or about right? Targets don't set a difference. I'm

:27:29.:27:33.

not asking you to set a target, I'm asking if that is about right or

:27:34.:27:37.

not? It reflects underlying economic conditions and we would like to

:27:38.:27:43.

adjust those. It reflects the underlying economic situation. We

:27:44.:27:47.

have to deal with that. Do you want to reduce immigration numbers? You

:27:48.:27:51.

can bear down on immigration. There are two main reasons why immigrants

:27:52.:27:58.

come here. The main one is to work. That is partly about the skills gap

:27:59.:28:04.

in the UK, partly about the fact that predatory employers use

:28:05.:28:12.

immigration to undercut British workers, black and white. How many

:28:13.:28:19.

immigrants are subject to predatory employers? How many are waiting for

:28:20.:28:22.

below the minimum wage? We don't know, because the whole point about

:28:23.:28:25.

them working for less than the minimum wage is that it is not

:28:26.:28:29.

properly documented. What we want to do is prosecute employers who pay

:28:30.:28:33.

below the minimum wage. The figures for prosecution or about seven. Many

:28:34.:28:38.

employers have been named and shamed and they have had to pay arrears to

:28:39.:28:42.

the people that were not getting the minimum wage and they have had to

:28:43.:28:47.

pay penalties, about ?3.5 million. It only covers about 10,000 people.

:28:48.:28:52.

We know that the number of illegal migrants here, we have no evidence

:28:53.:28:56.

that there are huge numbers below the minimum wage. Illegal is another

:28:57.:29:00.

matter. But you cannot show to me whether that would make a

:29:01.:29:03.

difference, because you don't know the numbers? Of course we don't know

:29:04.:29:07.

the numbers. As for the people that have been named and shamed, the fact

:29:08.:29:10.

they only cover a small number of people, that just shows how weak the

:29:11.:29:17.

policy is. What we would do is to strengthen the factories

:29:18.:29:22.

Inspectorate, we would ramp up penalties on people who are not...

:29:23.:29:29.

Prosecutions on people. They paid penalties and paid arrears. But you

:29:30.:29:32.

don't know by how much migration would reduce, even if there was full

:29:33.:29:37.

enforcement of the minimum wage. And a lot of these people are not

:29:38.:29:40.

migrants, they are people that were here. It is hard to see how much, if

:29:41.:29:44.

at all, that would reduce immigration numbers?

:29:45.:29:50.

Brexiteers The anxiety in constituencies like Bradford is the

:29:51.:29:54.

sense they are being undercut and losing job because of migrants and

:29:55.:29:58.

we would look to address that. He said at the last election that

:29:59.:30:02.

Labour's manifesto which pledged to bear down on immigration numbers

:30:03.:30:06.

were shameful. Why are you now advocating something you thought

:30:07.:30:10.

were shameful? What I thought was shameful was the immigration

:30:11.:30:13.

controls that did nothing for us and played very badly in some parts of

:30:14.:30:17.

the country. You are talking about your own form of control, to bed

:30:18.:30:26.

down is your phrase, to bed down on numbers means to control it. The

:30:27.:30:28.

current leadership is very clear that we want to stop the

:30:29.:30:30.

undercutting British workers and we want to stop the exploitation of

:30:31.:30:34.

immigrants. What I think is shameful is to play a game with

:30:35.:30:38.

anti-immigrant rhetoric. We have seen across the Atlantic where that

:30:39.:30:42.

leads to pursue. Donald Trump. Staying on the side of the Atlantic,

:30:43.:30:47.

you cannot tell me how many legal migrants are paid less than the

:30:48.:30:51.

minimum wage. He said the party policy was clear but we have had a

:30:52.:30:55.

number of statements from your party about policy. This is Jeremy

:30:56.:30:57.

Corbyn's spokesman... Which one is Labour policy? Our

:30:58.:31:23.

policy is fair rules and reasonable management of migration. Which one

:31:24.:31:29.

of these three is Labour policy? Jeremy Corbyn's spokesperson, we can

:31:30.:31:33.

discount that, Jeremy has never said anything like that. But he has been

:31:34.:31:37.

very clear we must not play politics with migration. We discount Jeremy

:31:38.:31:46.

Corbyn's spokesman? Yes. Emily Thornbury, is that the policy? Our

:31:47.:31:49.

policy is fair rules and reasonable management of migration and that is

:31:50.:31:54.

what she was saying. Clive Lewis, Shadow Business Secretary, proposes

:31:55.:31:57.

migrants should only be allowed to come here if they belong to a trade

:31:58.:32:03.

union is that your policy? He has gone back on that, you cannot insist

:32:04.:32:07.

that people during a union. But we should do everything we can to

:32:08.:32:12.

encourage people to join a union. They would not have to be a member

:32:13.:32:16.

to join? Clive Lewis is no longer saying that. Dan Jarvis, in the

:32:17.:32:20.

film, and other prominent Labour MP, says Labour should have a target to

:32:21.:32:26.

cut immigration can you don't agree? I am a former home Office civil

:32:27.:32:30.

servant and I can tell you targets never work, look at the humiliation

:32:31.:32:36.

of the Tories, immigration is as high as it has ever been. Targets

:32:37.:32:40.

are not the point, the point is to look at the underlying economic

:32:41.:32:44.

issues which bring migrants to our shores. But if you were to do that

:32:45.:32:49.

and do it successfully, what is the scale to cut the numbers? You cannot

:32:50.:32:54.

count illegal migrants and you cannot count employers who pay less

:32:55.:32:58.

than the minimum wage. Let me show you something you said at a fringe

:32:59.:33:04.

event of the Labour conference in Liverpool.

:33:05.:33:09.

It would be wrong to unnecessarily throwaway access to the Single

:33:10.:33:13.

Market in the name of controlling migration through ending single

:33:14.:33:18.

movement. Ending free movement. Because ending free movement has

:33:19.:33:25.

become a synonym for anti immigrant races and the Labour Party... --

:33:26.:33:34.

racism. The Labour Party should never be on the wrong side of that

:33:35.:33:41.

argument. Chuka Umunna, Rachel Greaves, Ed

:33:42.:33:44.

Balls, they have called to an end of free movement of Labour from the EU,

:33:45.:33:50.

they all guilty of anti-immigrant racism? I am aware of what they said

:33:51.:33:55.

and Keir Starmer and I went to Brussels last month and we spoke to

:33:56.:34:00.

a series of spokespeople, both for the Parliament and for the

:34:01.:34:03.

Commission on freedom of movement. And they were very clear that there

:34:04.:34:07.

will be no deal on freedom of movement. I did not ask about a

:34:08.:34:12.

deal, but if you are against free movement as these three Labour

:34:13.:34:16.

colleagues are, prominent colleagues, you have said to take

:34:17.:34:20.

that position is to be guilty of anti-immigrant racism. Is that what

:34:21.:34:24.

they are guilty of? I am not accusing them of that, I am saying

:34:25.:34:28.

they are not facing facts. You cannot have access to the Single

:34:29.:34:33.

Market without freedom of movement. You can have access, just not

:34:34.:34:37.

membership. Membership brings full freedom of movement, access does

:34:38.:34:44.

not. I spoke with Keir Starmer to every major European Commission

:34:45.:34:47.

spokesperson on this and they were clear there is no deal to be done on

:34:48.:34:52.

freedom of movement. And if we negotiated a deal which appeared to

:34:53.:34:57.

involve a condition of freedom of movement, the European Parliament

:34:58.:35:00.

simply would not vote for it. Canada has substantial access to the Single

:35:01.:35:05.

Market, it is not a member, but it has substantial access and there is

:35:06.:35:09.

no freedom of movement for Canada. I am telling you you can have any

:35:10.:35:13.

European spokesperson in the studio and ask them, can we have access

:35:14.:35:17.

without freedom of movement? They will tell you know. Why has Canada

:35:18.:35:22.

got a robust free trade movement agreement with the EU that does not

:35:23.:35:30.

involve freedom of movement? Why could Britain not have that as well?

:35:31.:35:33.

Because our geographical situation across the Channel from the European

:35:34.:35:34.

continent is across the Channel from the European

:35:35.:35:36.

continent is very different from Canada. Whether people like it or

:35:37.:35:42.

not, it is not whether you or against freedom of movement or not,

:35:43.:35:49.

it is like the weather. If the UK of the Channel from continental Europe

:35:50.:35:54.

wants access to the Single Market, there has to be commensurate freedom

:35:55.:35:58.

of movement. Otherwise, the European Parliament will not vote for that

:35:59.:36:02.

deal. You understand the difference between access and membership? I

:36:03.:36:05.

understand we could not have membership without freedom of

:36:06.:36:08.

movement, I am puzzled as to why we could not have some degree of

:36:09.:36:12.

access, it would have to be negotiated, but some degree of

:36:13.:36:15.

access not involving free movement. There are about 30 countries around

:36:16.:36:20.

the world which have substantial access to the EU and not free

:36:21.:36:24.

movement. Europe is saying something different, you need to ask European

:36:25.:36:29.

spokespeople into the studio and ask them why they refuse to accept there

:36:30.:36:33.

can be a deal which involves no freedom of movement. If and when we

:36:34.:36:41.

leave the EU, what would Labour's policy be towards immigration from

:36:42.:36:51.

the EU? If and when we leave the EU, we would want fair rules and

:36:52.:36:54.

reasonable management. What would that mean in practice? For instance,

:36:55.:37:01.

we would prevent employers going to Europe to recruit directly for jobs

:37:02.:37:05.

here without making those jobs open to British people. But we do not

:37:06.:37:10.

know again how much that difference would make? You would have the

:37:11.:37:14.

freedom to have a policy, would you have a policy on immigration? The

:37:15.:37:18.

Labour Party has always had a policy. The EU. We do not have a

:37:19.:37:25.

policy because we do not have one, when free movement comes to an end,

:37:26.:37:30.

on what basis would we allow EU citizens to work here? On the basis

:37:31.:37:34.

of fairness and on the basis of what is good for the economy because that

:37:35.:37:39.

is what has been lost sight of in this debate. Your Shadow Cabinet

:37:40.:37:43.

colleague John Healy said this week Labour just does not understand what

:37:44.:37:47.

matters to many working class communities. Is he wrong? He is

:37:48.:37:52.

wrong if what he's saying is that we have to right on immigration to save

:37:53.:37:58.

seats from Ukip. My belief is if the Labour Party starts saying Ukip is

:37:59.:38:03.

right and immigration is the course of these people's problems, if we

:38:04.:38:08.

start to say that, that gives credence to Ukip. Thank you very

:38:09.:38:11.

much, you made that clear, thank you.

:38:12.:38:13.

It's just gone 11:35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:14.:38:15.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:16.:38:18.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

:38:19.:38:30.

He's balanced his flagship projects to the east

:38:31.:38:32.

and west of the Bann, but the demands continue

:38:33.:38:34.

The Infrastructure Minister, Chris Hazzard, is with us.

:38:35.:38:39.

Plus, the battle over regeneration powers and who should control them

:38:40.:38:41.

has led to some bitter accusations against Stormont.

:38:42.:38:45.

The boss of the organisation which represents all the councils

:38:46.:38:47.

here tells us what it means for local government

:38:48.:38:49.

And giving us their thoughts on those issues - Chris Donnelly

:38:50.:38:54.

It's been a fortnight of varying fortunes

:38:55.:39:05.

for the Infrastructure Minister with legal rulings both holding up

:39:06.:39:08.

plans for the A6 and moving things forward on the A5.

:39:09.:39:11.

There's also the ever-present campaigning for the York Street

:39:12.:39:13.

Interchange to be built, with Belfast city councillors asking

:39:14.:39:16.

if the public-private funding model could be the answer.

:39:17.:39:19.

Chris Hazzard is with us this morning...

:39:20.:39:26.

Let's start with that good news on the A5 -

:39:27.:39:31.

that brings you closer to starting on that next year?

:39:32.:39:34.

There is a statutory process ongoing and we have a public enquiry. I'm

:39:35.:39:42.

not due to get the report until next spring anyway. It has lifted a

:39:43.:39:48.

hurdle, but it would not speed anything up and if we had lost that

:39:49.:39:53.

angle and into a judicial review proceedings, the final destination

:39:54.:39:57.

is unknown. It is a welcome decision, we are over the first

:39:58.:40:00.

hurdle but there is a statutory process that is still ongoing. Do

:40:01.:40:05.

you have a timescale? Can you say to people who are determined that this

:40:06.:40:08.

should be top of the list of priorities when ground is likely to

:40:09.:40:12.

be broken? I would like to be into construction mode this time next

:40:13.:40:17.

year and I want to get that report from the independent

:40:18.:40:31.

inspector. I cannot Expedia that process. It will likely be made next

:40:32.:40:35.

year and I will consider the report and I would like to be in a position

:40:36.:40:38.

next autumn to move into a construction phase for the A5.

:40:39.:40:39.

A tweet from the Dept of Infrastructure in June said

:40:40.:40:42.

"Infrastructure Minister Chris Hazzard to complete

:40:43.:40:43.

A5 in this mandate" - but that's not the case, is it?

:40:44.:40:46.

We want to move ahead. We know for the A5 that it is a massive project.

:40:47.:40:50.

This is the Dublin to Donegal route and this will take massive

:40:51.:40:55.

investment both from my -- department and the Southern

:40:56.:41:01.

government. The first stage is from Newbuildings to Strabane, it will be

:41:02.:41:05.

nine or ten miles, it is not a whole thing. I am determined to get as

:41:06.:41:10.

much finance as possible and I am meeting with the Southern Transport

:41:11.:41:14.

Minister in December and talks with the Southern government are ongoing.

:41:15.:41:19.

They had put 400 million on the table for the project but that has

:41:20.:41:23.

reduced to 75 and the Executive will spend money as well. I want to do as

:41:24.:41:29.

much as I can, but a lot will depend on finance. The statutory

:41:30.:41:42.

process as well. This is a road and also the A6 that people have been

:41:43.:41:46.

waiting half a century for. I will do as much as I can to get it

:41:47.:41:50.

completed but if it takes a bit longer, I think people would be

:41:51.:41:52.

happy. They want construction to begin. In this mandate, what you are

:41:53.:41:55.

likely to be able to complete in stage one of the process, not the

:41:56.:42:03.

entire A5. Do you accept that? If you're going to break ground next

:42:04.:42:07.

year, you cant finish the whole thing and do all of that work in

:42:08.:42:12.

three and a half years, it wouldn't be possible! With a fair wind and we

:42:13.:42:17.

can work on all three phases at the same time. There are statutory and

:42:18.:42:23.

legal processes to go through and I cannot circumvent them. Certainly

:42:24.:42:29.

the A5 and A6 remain priorities and I will do as much as I can to move

:42:30.:42:33.

them forward. What about the money from the Republic of Ireland, do you

:42:34.:42:37.

have a figure that you think is reasonable and acceptable and

:42:38.:42:41.

doable? 400 million was originally the figure. It has gone away and

:42:42.:42:47.

they are moving into a period of infrastructure review and I think it

:42:48.:42:52.

is timely. I have met with councils and there is a determination to put

:42:53.:42:56.

more money back on the table and when I meet with Shane Ross I will

:42:57.:43:01.

talk about that. Let's talk about the A6 after the criticism that

:43:02.:43:06.

Danny Kennedy faced over lack of consideration around environmental

:43:07.:43:10.

issues, have your plans now fallen foul of precisely the same

:43:11.:43:15.

difficulty? This is an application for leave. The bar is very low for

:43:16.:43:20.

applying for a leave and I welcome the comments that this is a vital

:43:21.:43:26.

project and we need resolution. My department are confident that we

:43:27.:43:30.

will be successful and we will remain on track for starting

:43:31.:43:34.

construction next March. That is the optimistic version, but you must

:43:35.:43:40.

know that looking at what happened in terms of delays on A5 which went

:43:41.:43:45.

on for years and as you have said has not started yet, if that is

:43:46.:43:49.

replicated where the A6 is concerned, you will be long gone as

:43:50.:43:53.

minister before anything substantial happens. It could happen. I don't

:43:54.:43:59.

want to circumvent the judicial process, I am confident and

:44:00.:44:04.

officials are confident that we have everything in place. We will have

:44:05.:44:09.

our papers lodged quickly and I welcome justice Maguire who rejected

:44:10.:44:12.

five of the six grams, we will have a hearing and I welcome that.

:44:13.:44:16.

Preliminary hearings will continue. This is one section and I hope in

:44:17.:44:21.

the New Year to make an announcement about the Dungiven bypass and

:44:22.:44:27.

joining the road to Derry as well. These are rules that should have

:44:28.:44:30.

been built decades ago. Can I address all of that in the next five

:44:31.:44:34.

years? I will do as much as I can. For a lot of people hearing that

:44:35.:44:38.

Dungiven would go ahead will be good news and they are likely to take the

:44:39.:44:43.

attitude, we will believe it when we see it, because this has been

:44:44.:44:46.

promised for decades and nothing has happened. I understand the

:44:47.:44:51.

frustration, I have been to Derry and heard the frustration, people

:44:52.:44:55.

saying they need investment and they are crying out for investment, we

:44:56.:44:59.

know the unemployment figures in Derry are too high. We know what it

:45:00.:45:03.

means to have good connectivity. That is the task I am setting myself

:45:04.:45:07.

to do. I understand the frustrations and I want to do with them. Has

:45:08.:45:14.

Dungiven jumped up the queue? It is part of the A6 plans. The bypass in

:45:15.:45:18.

Dungiven and towards Derry we are progressing with that in the New

:45:19.:45:22.

Year and I am coming to a stage where I hope to make an

:45:23.:45:26.

announcement. We are going into a budgetary process and I would like

:45:27.:45:29.

to think I would have the money to complete what I want to do with the

:45:30.:45:34.

A6. It will all become clear to the budget. We talked about west of the

:45:35.:45:39.

Bann and we also need to talk about Belfast and the calls being made for

:45:40.:45:44.

you to deal with the York Street Interchange. City councillors have

:45:45.:45:47.

been asking your department to develop a private public funding

:45:48.:45:51.

model, is that on the table? Working in partnership with local government

:45:52.:46:03.

and business in the years ahead is something we will have to look at.

:46:04.:46:05.

We know the dire straits the public finances are in. I am open to look

:46:06.:46:09.

at anything put in front of me. Even if that means tells? If a private

:46:10.:46:11.

firm was involved, the way it would recoup its investment is through

:46:12.:46:14.

that, are you prepared to consider tolling? I want a number of options.

:46:15.:46:22.

Public transport, roads, we know there is investment needed in waste

:46:23.:46:27.

water. I have established an alternative finance group to work

:46:28.:46:30.

with the Department of Finance but it has to work in the public

:46:31.:46:35.

interest. Is it in the public interest for motorist who have to

:46:36.:46:38.

pay to use a road system and if they cannot afford to, to use a

:46:39.:46:42.

second-best system, that is the question you have to deal with? It

:46:43.:46:46.

is something I will continue to look at, tolling has become a feature of

:46:47.:46:50.

many road projects in Europe and most of the western world. It is

:46:51.:46:54.

prevalent in the Republic. Indeed. It has to be used where it works and

:46:55.:46:59.

it has to work in the interest of the public. It is a possibility?

:47:00.:47:07.

Anything is a possibility. I have approximately five or ?6 billion

:47:08.:47:10.

worth of projects sitting with the Department and I can only get one or

:47:11.:47:15.

1.5 billion to do that. Do I leave everything on the shelf or do I look

:47:16.:47:19.

at ways to do it? It has to be in the public interest and does not

:47:20.:47:23.

leave us with massive resource bills for years to come. York Street

:47:24.:47:26.

Interchange and the fact that Belfast councillors want you to look

:47:27.:47:30.

at the high-speed rail link between Belfast and Dublin, are they serious

:47:31.:47:35.

priorities? Absolutely. We need to have a conversation about transport.

:47:36.:47:39.

We talked far too often about moving cars in and out of Belfast and we

:47:40.:47:49.

did not talk often enough about moving people. That is where the

:47:50.:47:51.

great hope is for rail. There are discussions ongoing about linking

:47:52.:47:53.

Belfast, Dublin and Derry with high-speed rail and I want to take

:47:54.:47:55.

that forward. Thank you very much. Let's hear from our commentators

:47:56.:47:58.

today - Felicity Houston What do you make of that? A lot on

:47:59.:48:09.

the table for consideration. I think this comes back to the fact that

:48:10.:48:13.

Sinn Fein decided to take the infrastructure ministry because they

:48:14.:48:16.

saw an opportunity to advance key signature programmes that really

:48:17.:48:19.

allow them to address a delivery deficit which has detrimentally

:48:20.:48:25.

impact on our national as complement -- competence. We see that in the

:48:26.:48:31.

national as turnout which has been declining. They see the A5 and A6 as

:48:32.:48:36.

a massive prize which allows them to say they have delivered on the fresh

:48:37.:48:41.

start plan. Those are the two priority programmes and in the time

:48:42.:48:45.

ahead, he would hopefully be able to show that we are going to move

:48:46.:48:48.

towards construction beginning on both of those which opens up the

:48:49.:48:55.

point is, while that would perhaps benefit people who support Sinn

:48:56.:48:59.

Fein, it does not benefit everyone, it is not just nationalist who would

:49:00.:49:04.

support? Obviously there is a mixed community there and it should be a

:49:05.:49:08.

benefit. Chris said that nationalists have lost faith in the

:49:09.:49:12.

government to deliver but I don't think so. The whole population has.

:49:13.:49:18.

I can think of the Belfast rapid transport programme which has

:49:19.:49:21.

supposedly been planned and I have been living there are 40 years and I

:49:22.:49:25.

remember this plan as a young girl. It still has not happened. Why on

:49:26.:49:32.

earth isn't there a proper roadway to Derry? If any of these things

:49:33.:49:36.

actually get built, people will be astonished and it will be a great

:49:37.:49:39.

achievement if the Minister manages it, but people will not expect it. I

:49:40.:49:43.

will come back to the Minister on that point, can you give any

:49:44.:49:48.

reassurance to Felicity Houston on that rapid transport system

:49:49.:49:54.

Others-macro I will be launching a project in 2018. We have tended the

:49:55.:49:57.

vehicles. I have seen some of the design work. That is only phase one.

:49:58.:50:03.

We need to look at South and North Belfast. We need to realise, that is

:50:04.:50:08.

the type of system that will tackle congestion. We cannot build our way

:50:09.:50:11.

out of the congestion problems. In Europe they have spent billions

:50:12.:50:16.

doing that and they have just built -- Michael built concrete jungles.

:50:17.:50:19.

Thanks to you both for now - we'll talk again soon but now

:50:20.:50:22.

for a look back at the week - one of those weeks dominated

:50:23.:50:25.

by a particular party - in sixty seconds with

:50:26.:50:27.

In the run-up to world AIDS Day, an MLA thanked a charity for

:50:28.:50:44.

enlightening him over HIV. For me that's a turning point, as someone

:50:45.:50:47.

who was ignorant to the fact of this terrible disease that heterosexual

:50:48.:50:51.

people can have it also. Possibly the only time Trevor Clark and Elton

:50:52.:50:56.

John will appear in the same story. A Northern Ireland politician said

:50:57.:50:59.

that he did not know that heterosexual people could get a HIV.

:51:00.:51:04.

Where is like what planet are you living on? Sammy Wilson's claim that

:51:05.:51:10.

other diseases more deserving of public attention got a rare rebuke

:51:11.:51:13.

from a party colleague who wrote reveal that a person close to her

:51:14.:51:16.

has HIV. It would not have been that difficult to wear the red ribbon in

:51:17.:51:20.

support. It would not have been difficult for anyone to do.

:51:21.:51:23.

Complaints that no Northern Ireland stars were on the short list for the

:51:24.:51:26.

BBC sports personality of the year. Just one of the things the First

:51:27.:51:31.

Minister found hard to swallow this week. We no doubt will be eating

:51:32.:51:36.

some fair from China, the things we do for Ulster.

:51:37.:51:41.

Power-grabbing and reneging on a promise are just two

:51:42.:51:44.

of the accusations levelled at the Communities Minister,

:51:45.:51:46.

Paul Givan, after his decision not to hand over regeneration

:51:47.:51:48.

On Thursday Belfast City Council agreed to seek an urgent

:51:49.:51:53.

Councils across Northern Ireland said it's a u-turn and one that

:51:54.:51:58.

will have a signficiant impact on their ability to sustain

:51:59.:52:01.

The chief executive of NILGA, which represents all the councils,

:52:02.:52:06.

is Derek McCallan and he's joins me now... Did you see this coming?

:52:07.:52:17.

We anticipated this, because the Northern Ireland Executive is about

:52:18.:52:22.

as watertight as a tea bag. We were made aware of this and we

:52:23.:52:25.

anticipated rather than reacted to it. We have already sought an

:52:26.:52:29.

engagement and that has been confirmed with the Communities

:52:30.:52:33.

Minister and the communities committee and the reason we are

:52:34.:52:37.

doing that is because we want to make absolutely sure that as your

:52:38.:52:42.

commentators mentioned, there is no democratic or delivery deficit as a

:52:43.:52:46.

consequence of this. Regeneration is one of the absolute foundation

:52:47.:52:52.

pieces of improving competition, economy, devolution, democratic

:52:53.:52:57.

deficits, don't need to happen as a result of this. We don't think they

:52:58.:53:01.

will, but crucial to this will be this programme for government.

:53:02.:53:05.

Nobody is suggesting that regeneration is not going to happen,

:53:06.:53:09.

the question is, how best to deliver it. Do you accept that the Minister,

:53:10.:53:15.

Paul Givan, in his new Department of communities with new

:53:16.:53:19.

responsibilities, is able to present himself as a one stop shop and

:53:20.:53:23.

deliver a better regeneration programme across the whole of

:53:24.:53:26.

Northern Ireland than would have been the case through the 11

:53:27.:53:29.

councils separately and independently? We don't accept that.

:53:30.:53:34.

We will be encouraging evidence to ensure that the councils are the

:53:35.:53:39.

one-stop shop and here is why. There is an economic disadvantage if you

:53:40.:53:47.

are an investor or a citizen in a local area, where there is an

:53:48.:53:50.

inability to have building control, planning, the local economy, area

:53:51.:53:53.

planning, land Assembly, comprehensive development schemes,

:53:54.:53:56.

all of these things have to happen at the local level. Why is better

:53:57.:54:03.

locally? Just ask the citizens in like Metropolitan dynamic areas like

:54:04.:54:06.

Merthyr Tydfil, Cornwall, not just the Glasgow and Manchester 's of

:54:07.:54:10.

this world. There has been a devolution of investment and powers

:54:11.:54:14.

into the hands of local people to develop and sustain local

:54:15.:54:17.

communities in local areas. The 11 community plans of the councils link

:54:18.:54:21.

to this programme will be the litmus test. But the minister says is not

:54:22.:54:27.

all of the councils where as ready as the better prepared councils to

:54:28.:54:32.

actually deliver on regeneration. When there was an uneven picture as

:54:33.:54:36.

far as he is concerned, in terms of delivery, potential, he had to step

:54:37.:54:41.

in and take over, does that not make sense? Do you accept that is the

:54:42.:54:47.

case? Of course. 11 councils were in the same place in terms of the local

:54:48.:54:54.

government act and a submission since 2002, which said that

:54:55.:54:57.

regeneration would be coming to those councils. They were in a state

:54:58.:55:01.

of preparedness. There is a better way of doing it, that is the point

:55:02.:55:07.

of the Minister. There is a policy imperative and a fractal in --

:55:08.:55:10.

practical unheard of for the councils to be in charge of the

:55:11.:55:13.

local economy. They will do that better with local people and with

:55:14.:55:17.

investors. I do want to put words in your mouth, but do you see it as a

:55:18.:55:23.

power grab by Paul Givan? The Northern Ireland Assembly like local

:55:24.:55:25.

government is maturing. They want to see results. That is a good thing.

:55:26.:55:29.

There is an element of this and let's be constructive about this,

:55:30.:55:33.

there is an element of this which is positive and in the statement there

:55:34.:55:37.

was a reference made to the fact that all communities regardless of

:55:38.:55:41.

size, that there would be a coordination of effort around

:55:42.:55:44.

regeneration. We are meeting a Minister on Tuesday and we hope that

:55:45.:55:52.

as seen through because rural communities, this has to be good for

:55:53.:55:55.

them as well. All of Northern Ireland at local level needs

:55:56.:55:58.

regeneration. It is interesting that you mentioned that. Belfast City

:55:59.:56:03.

Council on the one hand looks as though it is seeking to get the

:56:04.:56:07.

powers from the Minister, on the other hand it is currently working

:56:08.:56:11.

on the city growth deal which would give it regeneration powers anyway.

:56:12.:56:15.

Are you concerned that Belfast could pull away in terms of what it can do

:56:16.:56:20.

and the way in which it can do it in future and have an unfair advantage

:56:21.:56:27.

over the other ten councils, is that the possibility? No. Belfast just

:56:28.:56:31.

wants to have the same competitive advantage as the Swansea 's and

:56:32.:56:37.

Cardace of this world. In terms of a sector, local government is

:56:38.:56:39.

unwavering in its commitment to have further investment and powers

:56:40.:56:43.

devolved to it. The fact that there is some work being done by Belfast

:56:44.:56:47.

will not be to the material disadvantage of any other community

:56:48.:56:50.

in Northern Ireland as long as the councils are actually afforded the

:56:51.:56:59.

opportunity to do it and what we are asking for now, in this mandate, is

:57:00.:57:01.

for an all-party group on local governance, development and

:57:02.:57:03.

investment in the future, because if we do not have that, we will not

:57:04.:57:07.

have the highly laudable principles of this programme for government.

:57:08.:57:10.

You will have that distortion that you referred to. The Minister says

:57:11.:57:14.

that if people want regeneration on the ground, whether it is in Belfast

:57:15.:57:18.

or anywhere else across Northern Ireland, they don't care how it is

:57:19.:57:22.

delivered. It is the fact that it is deliberate and it will be delivered

:57:23.:57:27.

that matters to them. This is an argument that matters a lot to you

:57:28.:57:30.

and the councillors that you represent but the vast majority of

:57:31.:57:34.

people don't care, so long as it happens! If it is Paul Givan, great.

:57:35.:57:39.

In one respect it doesn't matter what institution delivers this but

:57:40.:57:43.

in terms of local democracy and local investment and a competitive

:57:44.:57:47.

economy, we need to have a local one-stop shop and the reason I

:57:48.:57:51.

mention that, just by way of illustration, at the moment there

:57:52.:57:54.

are three institutions dealing with regeneration and should be won

:57:55.:58:10.

at the local level, it should be the councils and the reason for that is

:58:11.:58:14.

that the council should not have to wait 16 weeks for an acknowledgement

:58:15.:58:17.

to be able to use street lamps to make a Wi-Fi town. It should be

:58:18.:58:20.

delivered locally and it is in Merthyr Tydfil, it is in Swansea, it

:58:21.:58:23.

is in Glasgow, it is in Cornwall, why do we normalise our local

:58:24.:58:24.

democracy? Interesting question. And let's have a final word

:58:25.:58:25.

with Felicity and Chris... What make of that? Is there a real

:58:26.:58:31.

tussle for control between Stormont and the 11 local councils? I don't

:58:32.:58:34.

think it is between Stormont and the councils, I think it is between the

:58:35.:58:38.

DUP specifically. We saw last year that Mervyn Storey as minister was

:58:39.:58:41.

reluctant to move on the regeneration Bill and it has been

:58:42.:58:45.

confirmed by Paul Givan that they want to hold the power with the

:58:46.:58:49.

ministry at Stormont. I think the issue there is that the DUP want to

:58:50.:58:54.

keep control because if it is seeded out to the council then obviously

:58:55.:58:58.

some of those councils are majority nationalist and some have no

:58:59.:59:00.

outright majority and the DUP would like to keep it centralised because

:59:01.:59:04.

they can have a role in strategically developing it. There

:59:05.:59:07.

could be grounds for friction to develop with Sinn Fein over that

:59:08.:59:10.

because clearly Sinn Fein do not agree. How do you see it? It is one

:59:11.:59:23.

of those things. I thought this was going ahead and suddenly the

:59:24.:59:24.

minister announces the councils aren't getting it. It could strip

:59:25.:59:26.

out unnecessary levels of bureaucracy. That has to be

:59:27.:59:29.

beneficial. If we are going to have local councils that actually do

:59:30.:59:31.

anything, the whole point of the reorganisation was that the councils

:59:32.:59:34.

would actually have roles now, proper and realistic ones and they

:59:35.:59:37.

are taking away this power from them which I hoped might have been

:59:38.:59:41.

successful, because although we are very small country, we are also

:59:42.:59:45.

parochial and everyone knows their own turf. That is the point. We

:59:46.:59:50.

talked about Swansea and Glasgow and Merthyr Tydfil and Northern Ireland

:59:51.:59:58.

are small and a lot of say if you want to compare like with like, you

:59:59.:00:01.

should be comparing Stormont rather than the 11 local councils. It has

:00:02.:00:03.

all the paraphernalia of a real government. This is the problem,

:00:04.:00:06.

Stormont wants to be a real government. Things move at a clay

:00:07.:00:11.

seal speed. There would be a possibility if that were done at

:00:12.:00:14.

local level that things could move on. It is like what we talked about

:00:15.:00:21.

with the roads. There was a disaster in Derry, it was run by two

:00:22.:00:25.

government departments. It feeds into the logic of reorganising our

:00:26.:00:28.

local government from 26 councils down to 11 which was about trying to

:00:29.:00:32.

make them larger, to give them powers were they could be credibly

:00:33.:00:36.

devolved powers so they could deliver on the ground, because they

:00:37.:00:40.

are closer and I think that is the strongest argument in this regard.

:00:41.:00:44.

It is going to be very interesting to see how it plays out because

:00:45.:00:48.

there cannot be two winners. Do you think that Paul Givan will end up in

:00:49.:00:52.

control? I think he is going to at the moment but I think over time it

:00:53.:00:55.

is something that Sinn Fein will want to see and the local councils.

:00:56.:00:59.

That's it for now - but we can't finish the programme

:01:00.:01:03.

without paying tribute to our former colleague, Austin Hunter, who's died

:01:04.:01:05.

suddenly and whom we remember with great affection.

:01:06.:01:08.

Many fitting and well-deserved tributes have been paid to him

:01:09.:01:10.

in the past few hours - and we're thinking about his family,

:01:11.:01:13.

and in particular, his son, Simon, who's part of our team.

:01:14.:01:17.

The Government's Supreme Court appeal against

:01:18.:01:35.

And, are the Lib Dems "back in the game"?

:01:36.:01:39.

The Italians have this constitutional referendum today,

:01:40.:01:57.

Matteo Renzi says if he loses, he will resign and that will spark a

:01:58.:02:04.

political crisis on top of the potential banking crisis, 18% of

:02:05.:02:07.

Italian bank loans on non-performing so they will not be paid back. He

:02:08.:02:13.

needs a 40 billion bailout and for complicated reasons, he cannot do

:02:14.:02:17.

it. By tomorrow morning, Italy could be the European story and not

:02:18.:02:21.

Britain. Britain is an age long forgotten problem in the world. We

:02:22.:02:26.

have had Trump, Italy and also Austria. Italy has long been the

:02:27.:02:30.

forgotten eurozone crisis about happen. It is not banking but also

:02:31.:02:34.

sovereign debt, they have a ridiculous deficit and this is what

:02:35.:02:38.

Mr Renzi is trying to tackle with constitutional reform. I do not

:02:39.:02:42.

think it is a necessary given that just because Renzi loses the

:02:43.:02:46.

referendum which he could do, he is behind in the polls, he will resign.

:02:47.:02:50.

Politicians have a funny way of digging themselves out of holes. He

:02:51.:03:02.

said he would resign and then he said he would not and now he is

:03:03.:03:04.

saying he is again. The Italian President who appoints the Prime

:03:05.:03:07.

Minister might talk him out of it. If it is against, the signal it

:03:08.:03:09.

sends to the markets is that Italy cannot reform itself. And so the

:03:10.:03:13.

chances of ever getting on top of a sovereign debt which is 135% of

:03:14.:03:19.

Italy's GDP, in an economy that has not grown since it joined the euro,

:03:20.:03:24.

that would be a strong signal to the markets. There is an echo of David

:03:25.:03:28.

Cameron's slightly back me or sack me approach to the EU referendum. A

:03:29.:03:35.

loan is 56 words long. Incredible. A bundle of reforms on the original

:03:36.:03:39.

idea of cutting the number of people in the second chamber and increasing

:03:40.:03:44.

the speed of legislation. It has turned into a confidence vote in

:03:45.:03:47.

Renzi. Before they stopped polling and they have two in the run-up to

:03:48.:03:51.

something like this, it looked like the No vote was quite for a head, so

:03:52.:03:57.

the insurgency vote. Given the record of the polls, I guess Renzi

:03:58.:04:00.

should go to bed early because he has won! A poll early today said the

:04:01.:04:06.

public will losing confidence in pollsters, surprise surprise.

:04:07.:04:09.

Another reason it would mean a financial crisis if there is a vote

:04:10.:04:15.

of no is that the Five Star Movement which would put up a candidate at a

:04:16.:04:19.

general election, which there could be, depending on what the President

:04:20.:04:24.

decides to do, the likelihood is the Five Star Movement might win. One of

:04:25.:04:28.

their policy commitments is to hold a referendum about whether Italy

:04:29.:04:32.

remains in the euro. And they will campaign against, so that is no

:04:33.:04:37.

comfort to the markets. Italian polls do not close until ten o'clock

:04:38.:04:42.

our time, 11 o'clock in Italy and we will get exit polls earlier. The

:04:43.:04:46.

South, we think, will be very much a No vote and the North could be

:04:47.:04:50.

different. By the morning, we will have a clear-cut idea. Meanwhile,

:04:51.:04:54.

the Supreme Court he is the appeal from the Government on Article 50

:04:55.:04:57.

and what the role of Parliament should be. It is not look like we

:04:58.:05:01.

will get a decision until January. I would suggest this Supreme Court

:05:02.:05:07.

ruling will be quite historic in that, I get the impression the

:05:08.:05:11.

judges intends to lay down quite clear parameters on what Executive

:05:12.:05:18.

powers are. They are taking it very seriously, instead of a panel of

:05:19.:05:22.

three judges, there is a bank of them. They acknowledge this is big.

:05:23.:05:27.

And it could be a slight anticlimax. There is a majority for this very

:05:28.:05:31.

simple bill, passing Article 50. Labour have said they will try to

:05:32.:05:35.

amend it but they will not block it. You might end up with enormous rage

:05:36.:05:39.

about these unelected judges and they might make their ruling and

:05:40.:05:44.

there is a simply -- there is a simple bill which passes. The

:05:45.:05:48.

interesting thing is the process. It will lay out a historical precedent

:05:49.:05:52.

for years and years to come by the Supreme Court. The Sunday Telegraph

:05:53.:05:55.

this morning said that the Government was ready with a very

:05:56.:06:00.

short Bill saying, this House votes to trigger Article 50. Words to that

:06:01.:06:05.

effect. Can it get away with that? I think it probably can because no MP

:06:06.:06:08.

and no political party really wants to be seen to stand on the way of

:06:09.:06:13.

Brexit quite yet. The Government whips I have spoken to and other

:06:14.:06:17.

opposition party leaders, they all say the fight is on the great repeal

:06:18.:06:21.

Bill and not less. There is one really interesting thing that has

:06:22.:06:25.

happened as a result of this great legal fight which we expect the

:06:26.:06:28.

Supreme Court will hide -- will hold at the High Court verdict. It is

:06:29.:06:33.

already significantly softening the Government's view on Brexit as we

:06:34.:06:37.

discussed earlier. Talking about a grey or a less hard Brexit. You look

:06:38.:06:43.

at what David Davis said in the House of Commons on Thursday about

:06:44.:06:47.

painting the budget contributions, still keeping some element of

:06:48.:06:52.

freedom of movement. There is a really important thing, if you want

:06:53.:06:56.

to get something through the House of Commons to trigger Article 50,

:06:57.:06:59.

you have to have the numbers with you and there is not a majority for

:07:00.:07:04.

a hard Brexit. You do wonder in a way wider government, unless it

:07:05.:07:08.

wants some kind of authoritative, historic statement one way or

:07:09.:07:12.

another on this, why if it has got the votes as they are saying, it did

:07:13.:07:18.

not just go and trigger Article 50. After it lost in the lower court. I

:07:19.:07:24.

think it is concerned about a bill to trigger Article 50 being amended

:07:25.:07:28.

and the process being frustrated by the opponents of Brexit. There is a

:07:29.:07:34.

risk the Supreme Court will refer the decision to the European Court

:07:35.:07:39.

of Justice. Earlier this week, the most senior British member of the

:07:40.:07:45.

ECJ, said it had ultimate authority when it came to Article 50 and the

:07:46.:07:49.

Supreme Court may take that view as well and refer it. From the point of

:07:50.:07:54.

view of Brexit, nothing could be better than Britain and its

:07:55.:08:00.

powerlessness expose and we have to see permission from a European court

:08:01.:08:05.

to leave the European Union and if Theresa May wanted to trigger a

:08:06.:08:09.

second general election before the ECJ has ruled, that would be the

:08:10.:08:12.

second referendum that Nick Clegg and others have been wishing for and

:08:13.:08:17.

I think the Brexiteers would win that hands down. We shall see,

:08:18.:08:21.

interesting development if that does go to the macro 3. Earlier, we

:08:22.:08:26.

listened to Diane Abbott on immigration -- Diane Abbott. There

:08:27.:08:32.

was a bit on Diane Jarvis we did not put in about Mr Jarvis and his

:08:33.:08:36.

reaction to Diane as Shadow Home Secretary, let's listen to that.

:08:37.:08:39.

She is the Shadow Home Secretary, so this whole issue of immigration,

:08:40.:08:42.

she is the mouthpiece for Labour, is she robust enough?

:08:43.:08:44.

Well, all of us in the Labour Party who believe this

:08:45.:08:47.

is an important issue - which I hope would be

:08:48.:08:49.

pretty much everybody - have an absolute responsibility

:08:50.:08:51.

to discuss this in a very grown-up way.

:08:52.:08:53.

But I cannot lose sight of the fact that in my constituency

:08:54.:08:57.

and around the country, and I've spoken to thousands

:08:58.:08:59.

of people about it, immigration is a very important issue.

:09:00.:09:02.

I think the proof of the pudding always will be in the eating.

:09:03.:09:11.

Dan Jarvis, we thought you would like to see that! Did we learn

:09:12.:09:19.

something about Labour's immigration policy this morning? Definitely, it

:09:20.:09:23.

is no secret Labour backbenchers are unhappy with the leadership on an

:09:24.:09:26.

enormous range of issues. What is more interesting is the view of

:09:27.:09:30.

Diane Abbott that Labour should defend the principle of immigration,

:09:31.:09:34.

not the view of Kai Di sky blue is an John McDonnell, the other close

:09:35.:09:39.

advisers of Jeremy Corbyn. There is a split within the people around

:09:40.:09:43.

Jeremy Corbyn and so absolutely we did learn something. We learned

:09:44.:09:48.

about the split? We're not miracle workers, we did not learn about the

:09:49.:09:52.

policy! It is close to Christmas, I can as for a present! The fact that

:09:53.:09:56.

there is a split on the Labour frontbench is probably not news so I

:09:57.:10:00.

argued there was nothing we learned at all! What was amazing about that

:10:01.:10:05.

Diane Abbott interview, she was able to contradict or dismiss or offend

:10:06.:10:10.

five different members of the Labour front bench. I counted John Healy,

:10:11.:10:15.

Keir Starmer, Clive Lewis, Emily Thornberry and Jeremy Corbyn's

:10:16.:10:19.

spokesman. That is extraordinary and that also will not make news because

:10:20.:10:24.

we think that is now normal. It will not make column inches of the great

:10:25.:10:29.

volcano on the front bench. Brief but before we finish on the Liberal

:10:30.:10:33.

Democrats? The danger of the Richmond Park by-election victory

:10:34.:10:37.

for Labour and the resurgence of the Liberal Democrats is that they now

:10:38.:10:41.

become the official opposition and they will move into that space which

:10:42.:10:46.

Labour has essentially vacated by being leaderless. I have got the

:10:47.:10:50.

Labour calendar, I got you a present for 2017. Great photographs of Keir

:10:51.:10:56.

Hardie and the founding of the health service. Thomas Attlee.

:10:57.:11:03.

Homosexuality being legalised and decriminalised in 1967. Funnily

:11:04.:11:06.

enough, no picture of Tony Blair, the man that won more elections for

:11:07.:11:11.

Labour. Just a little thing and made the first which was the year that

:11:12.:11:18.

Tony Blair won an election. Liberal Democrats, you can see it, on this

:11:19.:11:26.

day under Tony Blair, Labour win a landslide general election. 20th

:11:27.:11:31.

anniversary. Sarah Olney is the new MP for Richmond. I interviewed her

:11:32.:11:35.

in the middle of the night. Just after she had won, and she gave an

:11:36.:11:40.

interview to LBC and we thought you would like to see a clip of that.

:11:41.:11:43.

They voted for a departure, but not a destination.

:11:44.:11:45.

You know, there was no clear manifesto for what happened to,

:11:46.:11:47.

you know, our membership of the Single Market, or what...

:11:48.:11:50.

The Remain campaign said we were going to leave

:11:51.:11:53.

Every single leading member of the Remain campaign said a vote

:11:54.:12:00.

to leave the EU was a vote to leave the Single Market.

:12:01.:12:03.

I'm really sorry, but Sarah has to leave now.

:12:04.:12:09.

Sarah, if you want to be an elected Member of Parliament,

:12:10.:12:14.

I think you should probably be able to answer some simple

:12:15.:12:17.

Can you get Sarah back on the line, please?

:12:18.:12:20.

There you go, always helpful to have a PR man! At least Nick Clegg did

:12:21.:12:30.

not do that today. No, he took his punches and heat threw some back.

:12:31.:12:35.

Yes, he stood his ground well. Lib Dems, is this significant or not?

:12:36.:12:39.

There are not many seats like Richmond were 72% voted to remain.

:12:40.:12:44.

But there are many were Labour could be squeezed, it is a tactical

:12:45.:12:48.

anti-Tory vote and the best place for that is Lib Dems. For tips on

:12:49.:12:52.

strategy, the Lib Dems potentially think they have 40% is now flocking

:12:53.:12:56.

to them who voted Remain and it does not add up in constituency seats,

:12:57.:13:00.

especially in the south-west where they lost their seats. It is a

:13:01.:13:04.

Brexit area and they will not win them back there. It gives the Lib

:13:05.:13:08.

Dems something distinctive to say. Completely, they have a big yellow

:13:09.:13:12.

flag right in the middle of British politics and they have not had that

:13:13.:13:16.

for seven, eight years. We will leave it there, thank you.

:13:17.:13:24.

We will have more politics throughout the week.

:13:25.:13:26.

That's all for today, I'll be back at the same time next weekend.

:13:27.:13:29.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:30.:14:01.

'Sometimes all that's needed is a helping hand...'

:14:02.:14:04.

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers are joined by Diane Abbott and Nick Clegg. Helen Lewis of The New Statesman, Tom Newton Dunn of The Sun and Toby Young of The Spectator are on the political panel.


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