Browse content similar to 27/11/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator? | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy. | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live. | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms | :01:00. | :01:01. | |
of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU? | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
And in Northern Ireland: go head-to-head. | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
As environmentalists lose their attempt to stop | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
dredging in Lough Neagh, I'll be asking the former | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
Environment Minister they took to court if he made a mistake. | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
And with me, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. | :01:20. | :01:34. | |
They'll be tweeting throughout the programme | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
Political leaders around the world have been reacting to the news | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
of the death of Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary who came | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
to power in 1959 and ushered in a Marxist revolution. | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the former leader | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
as an "historic if controversial figure" and said his death marked | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Castro was "a champion of social | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
justice" who had "seen off a lot of US presidents" | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
President-elect Donald Trump described the former Cuban leader | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
as a "brutal dictator", adding that he hoped his death | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
would begin a new era "in which the wonderful Cuban people | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve". | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
Meanwhile, the President of the European Commission, | :02:22. | :02:22. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker, said the controversial leader | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
was "a hero for many" but "his legacy will be judged | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
I guess we had worked that out ourselves. What do you make of the | :02:29. | :02:43. | |
reactions so far across the political divide? Predictable. And I | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come in for criticism for his tribute to | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
Castro. But I think it was the right thing for him to do. We all know he | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
was an admirer. He could have sat there for eight hours in his house, | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
agonising over some bland statement which didn't alienate the many | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
people who want to wade into attacked Castro. It would have been | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
inauthentic and would have just added to the sort of mainstream | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
consensus, and I think he was right to say what he believed in this | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
respect. Elsewhere, it has been wholly predictable that there would | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
be this device, because he divided opinion in such an emotive way. | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
Steve, I take your point about authenticity and it might have | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn to pretend that he had no affection | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
for Fidel Castro at all, but do you think he made a bit of an error | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
dismissing Castro's record, the negative side of it as just a floor? | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
He could have acknowledged in more elaborate terms the huge costs. He | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
wanted to go on about the health and education, which if you actually | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
look up the indices on that, they are good relative to other | :03:59. | :04:00. | |
countries. But they have come at such a huge cost. He was not a | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
champion of criminal justice. If he had done that, it would have been | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
utterly inauthentic. He doesn't believe it. And he would have | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
thought there would be many other people focusing on all the epic | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
failings. So he focused on what he believed. There are times when | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
Corbyn's prominence in the media world now as leader widens the | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
debate in an interesting and important way. I am not aware of any | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever announced about Mr Castro. There | :04:41. | :04:51. | |
were four words in his statement yesterday which is spin doctor would | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
have forced him to say, for all his flaws. He was on this Cuban | :04:55. | :05:04. | |
solidarity committee, which didn't exist to criticise Castro. It | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
existed to help protect Castro from those, particularly the Americans, | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
who were trying to undermine him. And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
saying he has always called out human rights abuses all over the | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
world. But he said that in general, I call out human rights abuses. He | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
never said, I have called out human rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
ahead, more will come out about what these human rights abuses were. The | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
lid will come off what was actually happening. Some well authenticated | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
stories are pretty horrendous. I was speaking to a journalist who was | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
working there in the 1990s, who gave me vivid examples of that, and there | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
will be more to come. I still go back to, when a major figure diet | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
and you are a leader who has admired but major figure, you have to say | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
it. That is the trap he has fallen into. He has proved every criticism | :06:12. | :06:27. | |
that he is a duck old ideologue. But he is not the only one. Prime | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
Minister Trudeau was so if uses that I wondered if they were going to | :06:34. | :06:40. | |
open up a book of condolences. I think it reinforces Corbyn's failing | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
brand. It may be authentic, but authentic isn't working for him. | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
When I was driving, I heard Trevor Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
the record was mixed and there were a lot of things to admire as well as | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
all the terrible things. So it is quite nuanced. But if you are a | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
leader issuing a sound bite, there is no space for new ones. You either | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
decide to go for the consensus, which is to set up on the whole, it | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
was a brutal dictatorship. Or you say, here is an extraordinary figure | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
worthy of admiration. In my view, he was right to say what he believed. | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
There was still a dilemma for the British government over who they | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
sent to the funeral. Do they sent nobody, do they say and Boris | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
Johnson as a post-ironic statement? There is now a post-Castro Cuba to | :07:35. | :07:42. | |
deal with. Trump was quite diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba. | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
And Boris Johnson's statement was restrained. The thing about Mr | :07:46. | :07:54. | |
Castro was the longevity, 50 years of keeping Marxism on the island. | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
That was what made it so fascinating. | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
Before the last election, George Osborne promised the NHS | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
in England a real-terms funding boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020 | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
on the understanding that NHS bosses would also find ?22 billion worth | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
Since last autumn, NHS managers have been drawing up what they're calling | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
"Sustainability and Transformation Plans" to make these savings, | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
but some of the proposals are already running into local | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
opposition, while Labour say they amount to huge cuts to the NHS. | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
Help is on the way for an elderly person in need in Hertfordshire. | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
But east of England ambulance call operators | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
they're sending an early intervention vehicle | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
with a council-employed occupational therapist on board. | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
It's being piloted here for over 65s with | :08:50. | :08:51. | |
When they arrive, a paramedic judges if the patient can be | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
treated immediately at home without a trip to hospital. | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
Around 80% of patients have been treated this way, | :09:01. | :09:02. | |
taking the strain off urgently-needed hospital beds, | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
So the early intervention team has assessed the patient and decided | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
The key to successful integration for Hertfordshire being able | :09:12. | :09:24. | |
to collaboratively look at how we use our resources, | :09:25. | :09:26. | |
to have pooled budgets, to allow us to understand | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
where spend is, and to let us make conscientious decisions about how | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
best to use that money, to come up with ideas to problems | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
that sit between our organisations, to look at things collaboratively. | :09:38. | :09:39. | |
This Hertfordshire hospital is also a good example of how | :09:40. | :09:41. | |
You won't find an A unit or overnight beds here any more. | :09:42. | :09:49. | |
The closest ones are 20 minutes down the road. | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
What's left is nurse-led care in an NHS-built hospital. | :09:56. | :09:56. | |
Despite a politically toxic change, this reconfiguration went | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
through after broad public and political consultation | :10:01. | :10:02. | |
with hospital clinicians and GPs on board. | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
It's a notable achievement that's surely of interest to 60% of NHS | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
trusts in England that reported a deficit at the end of September. | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
It's not just here that the NHS needs to save money and provide | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
The Government is going to pour in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
in England, but it has demanded ?22 billion | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
worth of efficiencies across the country. | :10:33. | :10:34. | |
In order to deliver that, the NHS has created 44 health | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
and care partnerships, and each one will provide | :10:38. | :10:39. | |
a sustainability and transformation plan, or STP, to integrate care, | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
provide better services and save money. | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
So far, 33 of these 44 regional plans, drawn up by senior people | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
in the health service and local government, | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
The NHS has been through five years of severely constrained spending | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
growth, and there are another 4-5 years on the way at least. | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
STPs themselves are an attempt to deal in a planned way | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
But with plans to close some A units and reduce the number | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
of hospital beds, there's likely to be a tough political battle | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
ahead, with many MPs already up in arms about proposed | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
This Tory backbencher is concerned about the local plans for his | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
I wouldn't call it an efficiency if you are proposing to close | :11:30. | :11:37. | |
all of the beds which are currently provided for those coming out | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
of the acute sector who are elderly and looking | :11:42. | :11:43. | |
That's not a cut, it's not an efficiency saving, | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
All 44 STPs should be published in a month's time, | :11:48. | :11:55. | |
But even before that, they dominated this week's PMQs. | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
The Government's sustainability and transformation plans | :12:02. | :12:03. | |
for the National Health Service hide ?22 billion of cuts. | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
The National Health Service is indeed looking for savings | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
within the NHS, which will be reinvested in the NHS. | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
There will be no escape from angry MPs for the Health Secretary either. | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
Well, I have spoken to the Secretary of State just this week | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
about the importance of community hospitals in general, | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
These are proposals out to consultation. | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
What could happen if these plans get blocked? | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
If STPs cannot be made to work, the planned changes don't come | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
to pass, then the NHS will see over time a sort of unplanned | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
deterioration and services becoming unstable and service | :12:48. | :12:49. | |
The NHS barely featured in this week's Autumn Statement | :12:50. | :12:56. | |
but the Prime Minister insisted beforehand that STPs | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
are in the interests of local people. | :13:04. | :13:04. | |
Her Government's support will now be critical for NHS England | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
to push through these controversial regional plans, | :13:08. | :13:08. | |
which will soon face public scrutiny. | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
We did ask the Department of Health for an interview, | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
I've been joined by the Shadow Health Secretary, | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
Do you accept that the NHS is capable of making ?22 billion of | :13:24. | :13:40. | |
efficiency savings? Well, we are very sceptical, as are number of | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
independent organisations about the ability of the NHS to find 22 | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
billion of efficiencies without that affecting front line care. When you | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
drill down into the 22 billion, based on the information we have | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
been given, and there hasn't been much information, we can see that | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
some of it will come from cutting the budget which go to community | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
pharmacies, which could lead, according to ministers, to 3000 | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
pharmacies closing, which we believe will increase demands on A and | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
GPs, and also that a lot of these changes which are being proposed, | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
which was the focus of the package, we think will mean service cuts at a | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
local level. Do they? The chief executive of NHS England says these | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
efficiency plans are "Incredibly important". He used to work from | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
Labour. The independent King's Fund calls them "The best hope to improve | :14:34. | :14:41. | |
health and care services. There is no plan B". On the sustainable | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
transformation plans, which will be across England to link up physical | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
health, mental health and social care, for those services to | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
collaborate more closely together and move beyond the fragmented | :14:56. | :14:57. | |
system we have at the moment is important. It seems that the ground | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
has shifted. It has moved into filling financial gaps. As we know, | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
the NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history. By | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
2018, per head spending on the NHS will be falling. If you want to | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
redesign services for the long term in a local area, you need to put the | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
money in. So of course, getting these services working better | :15:24. | :15:25. | |
together and having a greater strategic oversight, which we would | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
have had if we had not got rid of strategic health authority is in the | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
last Parliament. But this is not an attempt to save 22 billion, this is | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
an attempt to spend 22 billion more successfully, don't you accept that? | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
Simon Stevens said we need 8 billion, and we need to find 22 | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
billion of savings. You have to spend 22 billion more efficiently. | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
But the Government have not given that 8 billion to the NHS which they | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
said they would. They said they would do it by 2020. But they have | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
changed the definitions of spending so NHS England will get 8 billion by | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
2020, but they have cut the public health budgets by about 4 million by | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
20 20. The budget that going to initiatives to tackle sexually | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
transmitted diseases, to tackle smoking have been cut back but the | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
commissioning of things like school nurses and health visitors have been | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
cut back as well. Simon Stevens said he can only deliver that five-year | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
project if there is a radical upgrade in public health, which the | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
Government have failed on, and if we deal with social care, and this week | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
there was an... I understand that, but if you don't think the | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
efficiency drive can free up 22 billion to take us to 30 billion by | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
2020, where would you get the money from? I have been in this post now | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
for five or six weeks and I want to have a big consultation with | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
everybody who works in the health sector, as well as patients, carers | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
and families. Though you don't know? I think it would be surprised if I | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
had an arbitrary figure this soon into the job. Your party said they | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
expected election of spring by this year, you need to have some idea by | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
now, you inherited a portfolio from Diane Abbott, did she have no idea? | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
To govern is to make choices and we would make different choices. The | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
budget last year scored billions of giveaways in things like | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
co-operating -- corporation tax. What I do want to do... Is work on a | :17:48. | :17:58. | |
plan and the general election, whenever it comes, next year or in | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
2020 or in between, to have costed plan for the NHS. But your party is | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
committed to balancing the books on current spending, that is currently | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor's position. What we are | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
talking about, this extra 30 billion, that is essentially current | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
spending so if it doesn't come from efficiency savings, where does the | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
money come from? Some of it is also capital. Mainly current spending. If | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
you look at the details of the OBR, they have switched a million from | :18:36. | :18:46. | |
the capital into revenue. Why -- how do you balance spending? | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
That is why we need to have a debate. Every time we ask for | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
Labour's policy, we are always told me a debate. Surely it is time to | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
give some idea of what you stand for? There's huge doubts about the | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
Government 's policy on this. You are the opposition, how would you do | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
it? I want to work with John McDonnell to find a package to give | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
the NHS the money it needs, but of course our Shadow Chancellor, like | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
any Shadow Chancellor at this stage in the cycle, will want to see what | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
the books look like a head of an election before making commitments. | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
I am clear that the Labour Party has to go into the next general election | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
with a clear policy to give the NHS the funding it needs because it has | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
been going through the largest financial squeeze in its history. | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
You say Labour will always give the NHS the money it needs, that is not | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
a policy, it is a blank cheque. It is an indication of our commitment | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
to the NHS. Under this Conservative government, the NHS has been getting | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
a 1% increase. Throughout its history it has usually have about | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
4%. Under the last Labour government it was getting 4%, before that | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
substantially more. We think the NHS should get more but I don't have | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
access to the NHS books in front of me. The public thinks there needs to | :20:08. | :20:16. | |
be more money spent on health but they also think that should go cap | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
in hand with the money being more efficiently spent, which is what | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
this efficiency drive is designed to release 22 billion. Do you have an | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
efficiency drive if it is not the Government's one? Of course we | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
agree. We agree the NHS should be more efficient, we want to see | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
productivity increased. Do know how to do that? One way is through | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
investments, maintenance, but there is a 5 million maintenance backlog. | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
One of the most high risk backlogs is something like 730 million. They | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
are going to switch the capital spend into revenue spend. I believe | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
that when you invest in maintenance and capital in the NHS, that | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
contribute to increasing its productivity. You are now talking | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
about 5 billion the maintenance, the chief executive says it needs 30 | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
billion more by 2020 as a minimum so that 35 billion. You want to spend | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
more on social care, another for 5 billion on that so we have proper | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
care in the community. By that calculation I'm up to about 40 | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
billion, which is fine, except where do you get the and balance the | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
account at the same time? We will have to come up with a plan for that | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
and that's why I will work with our Shadow Treasury team to come up with | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
that plan when they head into the general election. At the moment we | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are not going to give you the | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
investment, which is why we are seeing patient care deteriorating. | :21:56. | :22:03. | |
The staff are doing incredible things but 180,000 are waiting in | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
A beyond four hours, record levels of people delayed in beds in | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
hospitals because there are not the beds in the community to go to save | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
the NHS needs the investment. We know that and we know the | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
Government's response to that and many think it is inadequate. What | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
I'm trying to get from you is what your response would be and what your | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
reaction will be to these efficiency plans. Your colleague Heidi | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
Alexander, she had your job earlier this year, she warned of the danger | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
of knee jerk blanket opposition to local efficiency plans. Do you agree | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
with that? Yes. So every time a hospital is going to close as a | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
result of this, and some will, it is Labour default position not just | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
going to be we are against it? That is why we are going to judge each of | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
these sustainability plans by a number of yardsticks. We want to see | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
if they have the support of local clinicians, we want to see if they | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
have the support of local authorities because they now have a | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
role in the delivery of health care. We want to see if they make the | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
right decisions for the long-term trends in population for local area. | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
We want to see if they integrate social care and health. If they | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
don't and therefore you will not bank that as an efficiency saving, | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
you will say no, that's not the way to go, you are left then with | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
finding the alternative funding to keep the NHS going. If you are | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
cutting beds, for example the proposal is to cut something like | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there is the space in the community sector | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
in Derbyshire, that will cause big problems for the NHS in the long | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
term so it is a false economy. An example like that, we would be very | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
sceptical the plans could work. Would it not be honest, given the | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
sums of money involved and your doubts about the efficiency plan, | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
which are shared by many people, to just say, look, among the wealthy | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
nations, we spend a lower proportion of our GDP on health than most of | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
the other countries, European countries included, we need to put | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
up tax if we want a proper NHS. Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
Shadow Chancellor, I don't make taxation policy. You are tempting me | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
down a particular road by you or I smile. John McDonnell will come up | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
with our taxation policy. We have had an ambition to meet the European | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
average, the way these things are measured have changed since then, | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
but we did have that ambition and for a few years we met it. We need | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
substantial investment in the NHS. Everyone accepts it was | :24:54. | :24:55. | |
extraordinary that there wasn't an extra penny for the NHS in the | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
Autumn Statement this week. And as we go into the general election, | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
whenever it is, we will have a plan for the NHS. Come back and speak to | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
us when you know what you are going to do. Thank you. | :25:10. | :25:11. | |
Theresa May has promised to trigger formal Brexit negotiations | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
before the end of March, but the Prime Minister must wait | :25:15. | :25:16. | |
for the Supreme Court to decide whether parliament must vote | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
If that is the Supreme Court's conclusion, the Liberal Democrats | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
and others in parliament have said they'll demand a second EU | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
referendum on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal before | :25:26. | :25:27. | |
And last week, two former Prime Ministers suggested | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
that the referendum result could be reversed. | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
In an interview with the New Statesman on Thursday, | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped if the British people decide that, | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
having seen what it means, the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
John Major also weighed in, telling a meeting | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
of the National Liberal Club that the terms of Brexit | :25:50. | :25:51. | |
were being dictated by the "tyranny of the majority". | :25:52. | :25:53. | |
He also said there is a "perfectly credible case" | :25:54. | :25:55. | |
That prompted the former Conservative leader | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John Major. | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
He told the BBC, "The idea we delay everything simply | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
because they disagree with the original result does | :26:06. | :26:07. | |
seem to me an absolute dismissal of democracy." | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
So, is there a realistic chance of a second referendum on the terms | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May manages to secure? | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has said, "We want to respect | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
the will of the people and that means they must have their say | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
in a referendum on the terms of the deal." | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs - they'll need Labour support | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
One ally is former Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith. | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
He backs the idea of a second referendum. | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
But yesterday the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, said that, | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
"Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers, we believe in respecting | :26:47. | :26:48. | |
To discuss whether or not there should be a second referendum | :26:49. | :26:56. | |
on the terms of the Brexit deal, I've been joined by two | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
In Somerset is the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown, | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
and in Shropshire is the former Conservative cabinet minister | :27:04. | :27:05. | |
Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you first. When the British people have | :27:06. | :27:17. | |
spoken, you do what they command, either you believe in democracy or | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
you don't. When democracy speaks, we obey. Your words on the night of the | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
referendum, what's changed? Nothing has changed, Andrew, that's what I | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
said and what I still believe in. The British people have spoken, we | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
will not block Parliament debating the Brexit decision, Article 50, but | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
we will introduce an amendment to say that we need to consult the | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
British people, not about if we go out but what destination we would | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
then achieve. There is a vast difference in ordinary people's | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
lives between the so-called hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit, | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
you remain in the single market, you have to accept and agree on | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
immigration. Hard Brexit you are out of the single market, we have many | :28:11. | :28:18. | |
fewer jobs... Why didn't you say before the referendum there would be | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
a second referendum on the terms? Forgive me, I said it on many | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
occasions, you may not have covered it, Andrew, but that's a different | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
thing. In every speech I gave I said this, and this has proved to be | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
true, since those who recommended Brexit refused to tell us the | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
destination they were recommending, they refuse to give any detail about | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
the destination, if we did vote to go out, it would probably be | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
appropriate to decide which destination, hard Brexit or soft | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
Brexit we go to. They deliberately obscure that because it made it more | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
difficult to argue the case. It wasn't part of the official campaign | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
but let me come to Owen Paterson. What's wrong with a referendum on | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
the terms of the deal? We voted to leave but we don't really know on | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
what conditions we leave so what's wrong with negotiating the deal and | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
putting that deal to the British people? This would be a ridiculous | :29:17. | :29:25. | |
idea, it would be a complete gift to the EU negotiators to go for an | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
impossibly difficult deal because they want to do everything to make | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
sure that Brexit does not go through. This nonsense idea of hard | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never discussed during the referendum | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
campaign. We made it clear we wanted to take back control, that means | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
making our own laws, raising and spending the money agreed by elected | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
politicians, getting control of our own borders back, and getting | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
control of our ability to do trade deals around the world. That was | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
clear at all stages of the referendum. We got 17.4 million | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
votes, the biggest vote in history for any issue, that 52%, 10% more | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
than John Major got and he was happy with his record number of 14 | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
million, more than Tony Blair got, which was 43%, so we have a very | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
clear mandate. Time and again people come up to me and say when are we | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
going to get on with this. The big problem is uncertainty. We want to | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
trigger Article 50, have the negotiation and get to a better | :30:29. | :30:30. | |
place. OK, I need to get a debate going. | :30:31. | :30:40. | |
Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want us to leave. If they knew there was | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
going to be a second referendum, surely there was going to be a | :30:45. | :30:46. | |
second referendum, surely their incentive would be to give us the | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
worst possible deal would vote against it would put us in a | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
ridiculous negotiating position. On the contrary, the government could | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
go and negotiate with the European Union and anyway, the opinion of the | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
European Union is less important than the opinion of the British | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
people. It seems to me that Owen Paterson made the case for me | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
precisely. They refuse to discuss what kind of destination. Britain | :31:10. | :31:16. | |
voted for departure, but not a destination. Because Owen Paterson | :31:17. | :31:18. | |
and his colleagues refused to discuss what their model was. So the | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
range of options here and the impact on the people of Britain is huge. | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
There is nothing to stop the government going to negotiate, | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
getting the best deal it can and go into the British people and saying, | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
this is the deal, guys, do you agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple. | :31:37. | :31:43. | |
The British people voted to leave. We voted to take back control of our | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
laws, our money, our borders. But most people don't know the shape of | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
what the deal would be. So why not have a vote on it? Because it would | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
be a gift to the EU negotiators to drive the worst possible deal in the | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
hope that it might be chucked out with a second referendum. The | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
biggest danger is the uncertainty. We have the biggest vote in British | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
history. You have said all that. It was your side that originally | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
proposed a second referendum. The director of Leave said, there is a | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
strong democratic case for a referendum on what the deal looks | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
like. Your side. Come on, you are digging up a blog from June of 2015. | :32:32. | :32:42. | |
He said he had not come to a conclusion. He said it is a distinct | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
possibility. No senior members of the campaign said we would have a | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
second referendum. It is worth chucking Paddy the quote he gave on | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
ITV news, whether it is a majority of 1% or 20%, when the British | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
people have spoken, you do what they command. People come up to me and | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
keep asking, when are you going to get on with it? What do you say to | :33:10. | :33:19. | |
that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson has obviously not been paying | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
attention. You ask me that question at the start. Owen and his kind have | :33:23. | :33:32. | |
to stick to the same argument. During the referendum, when we said | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
that the Europeans have it in their interest to picket tough for us, | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
they would suffer as well. And that has proved to be right. The European | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
Union does not wish to hand as a bad deal, because they may suffer in the | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
process. We need the best deal for both sides. I can't understand why | :33:52. | :34:03. | |
Owen is now reversing that argument. Here is the question I am going to | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
ask you. If we have a second referendum on the deal and we vote | :34:08. | :34:16. | |
by a very small amount, by a sliver, to stay in, can we then make it | :34:17. | :34:27. | |
best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable says he thinks if you won, he would | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
have to have a decider. You will have to put that income tax, because | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
I don't remember when he said that. -- you have to put that in context. | :34:37. | :34:44. | |
Independent, 19th of September. That is a decision on the outcome. The | :34:45. | :34:51. | |
central point is that the British people voted for departure, not a | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
destination. In response to the claim that this is undemocratic, if | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
it is democratic to have one referendum, how can it be | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
undemocratic to have two? Owen Paterson, the British government, on | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
the brink of triggering article 50, cannot tell us if we will remain | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
members of the single market, if we will remain members of the customs | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
union. From that flows our ability to make trade deals, our attitude | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
towards freedom of movement and the rest of it. Given that the | :35:25. | :35:26. | |
government can't tell us, it is clear that the British people have | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
no idea what the eventual shape will be. That is surely the fundamental | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
case for a second referendum. Emphatically not. They have given a | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
clear vote. That vote was to take back control. What the establishment | :35:43. | :35:50. | |
figures like Paddy should recognise is the shattering damage it would do | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
to the integrity of the whole political process if this was not | :35:54. | :36:00. | |
delivered. People come up to me, as I have said for the third time now, | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
wanting to know when we will get article 50 triggered. Both people | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
who have voted to Remain and to Leave. If we do not deliver this, it | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
will be disastrous for the reputation and integrity of the | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
whole political establishment. Let me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is | :36:18. | :36:26. | |
very Brussels elite - were ask your question but if we don't like the | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
answer, we will keep asking the question. Did it with the Irish and | :36:30. | :36:38. | |
French. It is... It would really anger the British people, would it | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
not? That is an interesting question, Andrew. I don't think it | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
would. All the evidence I see in public meetings I attended, and I | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
think it is beginning to show in the opinion polls, although there hasn't | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
been a proper one on this yet, I suspect there is a majority in | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
Britain who would wish to see a second referendum on the outcome. | :37:00. | :37:02. | |
They take the same view as I do. What began with an open democratic | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
process cannot end with a government stitch up. Contrary to what Owen | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
suggests, there is public support for this. And far from damaging the | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
government and the political class, it showed that we are prepared to | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown, have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew, | :37:23. | :37:32. | |
as you well know, I have eaten five hats. You cannot have a second | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
referendum until you eat your hat on my programme. We will leave it | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen Paterson, thank you much. I have | :37:41. | :37:48. | |
eaten a hat on your programme. I don't remember! | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :37:52. | :37:53. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now | :37:54. | :38:03. | |
Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
As environmentalists lose a case against sand | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
dredging in Lough Neagh, I'll be asking the former | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
Minister Mark H Durkan, and the Green MLA Steven Agnew | :38:15. | :38:16. | |
Jim Allister vows to go on as TUV leader despite falling numbers | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
And with me throughout with their thoughts, | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
The environmental group Friends of the Earth has failed in its legal | :38:26. | :38:37. | |
attempt to end sand dredging in Lough Neagh, after taking | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
The group had argued the Department of the Environment should have | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
stopped the dredging, rather than allow it to continue | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
while the companies involved applied for planning permission. | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
However, that was rejected in court on Friday. | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
Joining me now are the Green MLA Steven Agnew, and from our Foyle | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
studio, the former Environment Minister Mark H Durkan. | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
Mark, you must be relieved at this ruling? | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
I very much welcome the ruling, not only did they make the right | :39:09. | :39:21. | |
decision but they made it correctly as a -- I made it correctly as well. | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
But the judges face -- realised the difficulties facing me, and the | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
pragmatic steps that I did take to have this activity on the lough | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
regular realised. Why did you ignore the advice | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
of your officials who urged I don't think it's fair to say I | :39:38. | :39:46. | |
ignored them, I considered the advice, as I did on any decision I | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
had to make, and I balanced it against other factors. In this | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
instance I balanced the potential or possible environmental damage that | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
was being caused by the sand dredging against the definite | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
economic consequences of issuing a stock that is there and then, and | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
those consequences would have been devastating. We are talking about a | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
few hundred people losing their jobs overnight through no fault of their | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
own, they are doing something that may their fathers and grandfathers | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
did, activity that's been going on in the region of 90 years, and | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
nobody batted an eye about it until a couple of years ago. But | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
environmental damage would have been very serious. Are you prepared to | :40:33. | :40:40. | |
take that risk. The problem was the lack of information around the | :40:41. | :40:49. | |
lough. I'm the only minister who had taken any action to address this | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
issue, as soon as I became aware of it. I issued an enforcement notice, | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
which Stephen Agnew welcomed me doing at the time. I came under | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
serious criticism from industry at the time I did that. So it was a | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
difficult situation. I appreciate the concerns that have been raised | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
by Friends of the Earth and others about possible environmental damage, | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
however, a desktop study commissioned by myself and others | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
found that the environmental damage is more than likely negligible. You | :41:25. | :41:37. | |
welcomed what he did at the time. The court has vindicated him by | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
saying he handled the situation in an acceptable way. His decision was | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
within his remit. What I would say is that the court said he was | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
entitled to make the decision, they didn't say it was the right | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
decision. As you pointed out, he was twice advised by his department to | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
call for a stop notice. He chose not to do so. He said he was receiving | :42:00. | :42:09. | |
other advice, he had to weigh it up. It is a special protection area, | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
development should not be allowed on the site is a can be shown there is | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
no risk. What about the potential economic consequences? I think there | :42:18. | :42:26. | |
should be a level playing field and every developer should have to | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
follow the rules. This sand dredging has been going on for decades. There | :42:30. | :42:37. | |
was an opportunity to draw the line in the sand and say no more, and I | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
think he should have done that until we get the evidence this is so. | :42:42. | :42:52. | |
Friends of the Earth said the effect of dredging was overestimated. Until | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
we can gather the evidence as to why -- the sand dredgers have not and | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
cannot prove that they are not at least in part responsible, and I | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
think we need to get the evidence. It is very difficult to collect that | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
evidence when ?1.5 million -- 1.5 million tonnes of sand are still | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
being extracted every year without authorisation. We've been promised | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
for years there would be a planning application. We are yet to see | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
planning approval. But we are now seeing an application, had it not | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
been for my action we wouldn't have seen that. We are working through | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
that. The information that has been missing is being assimilated as we | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
speak. I think that is very important. But good evidence is hard | :43:40. | :43:48. | |
to gather when the sand dredging is still continuing. I do welcome your | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
action, as you know, when you are minister I raised at a number of | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
times, and in that sense we worked together. But I do think you need to | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
go that stepfather and stop the dredging so that we can get the | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
evidence as to whether or not this is causing the environmental damage. | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
-- go that stepfather. I know you wouldn't have had reason to be | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
overly critical of me, I took it is maybe a slight rebuke that I had | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
maybe ignored the advice of my officials on two occasions on this | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
matter, but you will concede it was OK for me to ignore advice from the | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
same officials when they came to locking. That is a different issue. | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
-- locking. He was environment minister, and | :44:37. | :44:54. | |
he's just said he made a decision that was good for the economy. It is | :44:55. | :45:04. | |
about balancing all of those competing interests. That is the job | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
of the environment minister. I find it bizarre that -- we have decided | :45:10. | :45:18. | |
as a society that environmental protection is something that is | :45:19. | :45:21. | |
important, and I don't think we can just cherry pick as and when we | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
reinforce our regulations. Are you not concerned about the removal of | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
1.5 million tonnes of sand each year from the bottom of Lough Neagh? We | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
do not know what the environmental consequences of that are. We've | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
already referred to wintering birds, we need to find out what impact that | :45:43. | :45:49. | |
is happening -- having. I am proud of the role I have played in | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
protecting the environment. Of course I am concerned there might be | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
environmental damage being done here, that is why these studies are | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
now being tried out, and a planning application was sought and has | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
subsequently been made. That is why the implement -- information has now | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
been acquired, and it has been missing. For decades and decades and | :46:12. | :46:18. | |
decades. There are not many factors at play in the bird population. I | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
have discussed it with Friends of the Earth, in private. I've had an | :46:22. | :46:28. | |
acknowledgement from them that if the sand dredging is a factor in | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
this, it is a small one. You are tapping the microphone with your | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
hand, making a little bit of a noise which may be difficult for our | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
viewers to hear what you are saying. What is your advice to your | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
successor who is now responsible for this, the infrastructure Minister? | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
What you think he needs to do next to chart the best way for the? I | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
think it is important that Chris works with the industry to make sure | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
that their application comes forward in a timely manner, but it is | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
important that he also works with Friends of the Earth and | :47:07. | :47:08. | |
environmental groups who are opposed to this practice in general. It is | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
like you rightly outlined, Mark, about striking a balance. It is not | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
always easy to do so. However, when I came to the role of environment | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
minister said it was my vision to create a better environment and a | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
stronger economy. For too long those things have been pitched against | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
each other and we have had the mindset that what is good for the | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
economy has been bad for the environment. That doesn't have to be | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
the case. I think it is possible to have a thriving economy and to make | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
sure -- ensure robust environment up to. I will be trying to ensure as a | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
member of the opposition that the new minister does that as well. What | :47:50. | :47:56. | |
do you think Chris Hazard should do next? We had the report, lack of | :47:57. | :48:06. | |
enforcement has said we have up to ?250 million Bill for cleaning up | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
sites that have been used for unauthorised waste. If we do not | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
enforce our environmental laws it will damage the economy as well as | :48:16. | :48:16. | |
our environment. The TUV leader Jim Allister has | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
insisted he has no plans to retire, as he addressed his eighth | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
conference. He told delegates in Cookstown | :48:25. | :48:26. | |
he is already looking forward to the council elections, | :48:27. | :48:28. | |
when he hopes the party But the attendance at the gathering | :48:29. | :48:30. | |
was well down on last year, with some blaming | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
the party poor performance Our political correspondent | :48:35. | :48:36. | |
Enda McClafferty was there. His political opponents may believe | :48:37. | :48:47. | |
he is heading for retirement, but there was no hint yesterday that Jim | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
Allister is about to exit the political stage. So it seems it is | :48:51. | :49:03. | |
not yet time for Jexit, but for Brexit. As he addressed his eighth | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
party conference, he already had his sights on the next council election, | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
and he had a defiant message for those at Stormont rushing him out of | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
the door. I will continue to shine the spotlight of exposure into the | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
dark corners of Stormont. I will continue to be the thorn in the | :49:23. | :49:31. | |
flesh of Sinn Fein, DUP misrule. And I will rub salt in as well when I | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
get the and I hope the salt may never lose its savour. The attack | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
the first and Deputy First Ministers for using a spin doctor to try and | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
cover uncomfortable truths. We need you to go down to Ulster carpets. | :49:47. | :49:58. | |
But I am here as a spin doctor, not to measure carpets! Are, but you | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
see, David, we have a major problem. There is no more room left under our | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
carpets to sweep away all the dirty business. | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
But make no mistake about it, Jim Allister is facing the biggest test | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
of his political career. After the party's poor showing in the Assembly | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
election, when only one of their 15 candidates was elected, he has got | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
to convince unionist voters got -- that the TV is more than just a | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
one-man band. It is not a one-man band in the province at-large, there | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
are lots of people supporting them, lots of people wishing them well. As | :50:40. | :50:46. | |
for the party faithful, who turned out in fewer numbers than last year, | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
how did they assess the state of the TV? At how different people saying | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
they don't vote for TV, but I hope Jim stays there to expose all that | :50:59. | :51:06. | |
is going on. -- TUV. If they went out and joined the various branches, | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
we would get stronger. But people tend to sit on their backsides and | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
do nothing about it. Jim Allister will be back at Stormont on Monday, | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
on what has become a crowded opposition bench. There is no doubt | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
his traditional Unionist voiced will still be heard, but will his call | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
for more voters to back his brand of unionism be heard beyond the | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
conference centre? He has four years to make sure it is. | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
Let's hear from my guests of the day, Sam McBride | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
Sam, a familiar message from Jim Allister, but fewer people | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
I think it's very obvious, I think the party was refreshingly upfront | :51:42. | :51:51. | |
about it yesterday, there was no attempt yesterday to pretend it was | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
a good year, they did appallingly in the Assembly election. They lost | :51:57. | :52:04. | |
them both high-profile councillor, Henry Reilly, just over a year after | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
he joined, and with no election for several years they are facing a | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
period in the wilderness as it were. They have been there before with Jim | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
Allister when he first came into the Assembly. He managed to confound the | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
critics at that point, came back with 75,000 votes in the European | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
elections, but at the moment it looks pretty grim. | :52:25. | :52:26. | |
Deirdre, the challenge for the TUV has always been to not to look | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
like a one man band, cast in the image of its leader. | :52:30. | :52:37. | |
That problem is as big now if not bigger than ever. There is no clear | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
successor, I don't think anyone could name somebody they feel would | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
be the successor, and Jim is very much a one-man band. I think it | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
seems his moment in the sun has come and gone, there is a new | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
dispensation in politics, and the media focus has turned to the | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
official opposition so he doesn't have the spotlight he once had, and | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
he is clearly not a comedian. His message does not resonate in | :53:05. | :53:11. | |
Northern Ireland, the corruption, the behind-the-scenes dealing. He | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
doesn't have a positive message to put forward. What would his | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
alternative be? It is ironic he is so anti-the European Union that he | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
absolutely wants to leave as soon as possible and yet the European | :53:24. | :53:25. | |
elections is where he did quite well. | :53:26. | :53:28. | |
The opposition benches are now more crowded than before, | :53:29. | :53:30. | |
and that has arguably eclipsed the part played by Jim Allister | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
You would think there would be some traction for the TUV. The DUP and | :53:34. | :53:49. | |
Sinn Fein are caught in this warm embrace on the hill. I think the | :53:50. | :53:59. | |
difficulty for Jim Allister's been all the baggage that has gone along | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
with his brand of unionism, and I think yes, there is an opposition, | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
Mike Nesbitt is the leader as he calls himself, but the difficulty | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
for those parties is I think they haven't been massive -- massively | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
effective, and I think Jim Allister has been arguably better as exposing | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
things that they have. The Mr Gove the vegan thing he said yesterday | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
was that he is going to keep going. -- the most significant thing. There | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
is nobody that comes close to his calibre within the party. But I | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
think people want a positive alternative. He is saying we will go | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
back to direct rule, is that his solution to this? He doesn't like | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
the cosy consensus he talks about, but I think all that negativity does | :54:43. | :54:44. | |
not appeal to the public. Let's have a word about Friday, | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
when the First and Deputy First Ministers met with their Scottish | :54:48. | :54:50. | |
and Welsh counterparts at And no surprise that top | :54:51. | :54:52. | |
of the agenda was Brexit. Martin McGuinness had some strong | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
criticism for Theresa May and in a separate development, | :54:57. | :54:58. | |
the Fianna Fail leader Micheal Martin also had a go | :54:59. | :55:00. | |
at the Prime Minister but first, I think the British Prime Minister | :55:01. | :55:14. | |
should have been here today. This was her first opportunity to attend | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
the meeting and to meet with the devolved institutions, and I think | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
it was a missed opportunity on her behalf. It is with dismay that I | :55:24. | :55:33. | |
view her absence. There is some evidence the British Government is | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
not engaging enough with the devolved administrations. And | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
particularly when you consider that in Northern Ireland a substantial | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
majority have voted to remain, likewise in Scotland, I think there | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
is a need for the UK Government to engage. Also we know the Secretary | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
of State for Northern Ireland is not on the main negotiating Cabinet | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
committee, which is worrying. And I think overall there has been a lack | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
of proactive engagement with the devolved administrations. And today | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
was a wonderful opportunity that could have facilitated such | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
engagement, and also providing badly needed reassurances. | :56:12. | :56:22. | |
There is an irony in Scottish and Irish nationalists criticising the | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
British by Minister for not attending an event. Fundamentally | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
the honest answer is that neither Westminster nor the devolved | :56:32. | :56:33. | |
administrations really know what they want out of this. Scotland has | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
a bit more of a clear picture in terms of what the SNP wants, but in | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
terms of Scott -- Stormont, one half is arguing for one thing and one for | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
another. On some issues like the border they think it should be as | :56:48. | :56:50. | |
low-key as possible, but if you push it to whether they should be British | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
passport control at Dublin airport, Sinn Fein are against that the DUP | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
are possibly open to it, so it is difficult. I don't think the Prime | :56:59. | :57:06. | |
Minister will be quaking in her boots at the criticism, nor will | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
this -- she see it as a missed opportunity to talk about Brexit. It | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
is clear that she does treat the devolved administrations with | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
contempt. She has topped about wanting a grown-up relationship with | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
the devolved administrations. That is patronising and insulting. -- | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
talked about. She has had the shortest political honeymoon in | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
political history, and she does seem to her go out of her way. I think | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
she should have been there symbolically, she should have said I | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
am listing, I understand your concerns. We hope the Maltese Prime | :57:46. | :57:57. | |
Minister saying sorting out the Irish border, what happens between | :57:58. | :58:00. | |
Northern Ireland and the Republic needs to be the first thing to be | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
sorted out before the Brexit negotiations. The other macro to a | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
certain extent it has been sorted out in a sense, the question is | :58:07. | :58:17. | |
where does the border and then go? Does go to Dublin airport, ports in | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
the south of Ireland? That is a difficult issue. At this point there | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
is no clear message from Stormont, other than the British Government | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
line about there being no return to the borders of the past. There is no | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
real clear sense of where it is going, otherwise --. No return to | :58:34. | :58:41. | |
the borders of the past is meaningless. This whole ministerial | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
Council was sold as an opportunity to cast some light on this. We are | :58:47. | :58:48. | |
no clearer. Let's have a look back | :58:49. | :58:49. | |
at the political week gone past in 60 seconds - | :58:50. | :58:51. | |
with Stephen Walker. The Finance Minister outlined his | :58:52. | :59:04. | |
grand designs to raise more money from rates. | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
If you live in a house valued over ?400,000, I don't think it | :59:11. | :59:13. | |
unreasonable to say you should pay more according to the value of the | :59:14. | :59:19. | |
home. The Chancellor said we are to get an extra ?277 million. In | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
another chamber, the Stormont speaker said sorry for not revealing | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
his connection to loyalist group -- eight loyalist group. I apologise to | :59:30. | :59:35. | |
the house for not having done so. The tug-of-war between local | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
councils and the Executive over regeneration rumbles on. The | :59:39. | :59:45. | |
distribution of power, allowing other people to take the lead on | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
things, is sneered at. And political football: the DUP communities | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
Minister made a promising debut. I've never kicked a Gaelic football, | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
so that was a first for me. I was glad I was able to get a point for | :00:00. | :00:01. | |
putting a ball over the bar! And let's have a final word | :00:02. | :00:03. | |
with Deirdre and Sam. That was an entertaining sequence | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
with Paul Givan playing Gaelic football there - | :00:08. | :00:09. | |
but what's the real I think it is welcome, he is perhaps | :00:10. | :00:24. | |
illustrating the new accommodation between the two main parties. He is | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
a younger minister, we may see things moving on. Progress here is | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
slow. We are saying the sports minister should be a minister for | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
all sports at this stage of devolution. He really adopted Ian | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
Paisley's approach, throwing himself into it. He is a keen footballer, | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
this is a line that Gregory Campbell crossed for the DUP. On the sporting | :00:49. | :00:56. | |
aspect they are quite comfortable, not on the | :00:57. | :00:57. | |
have got to make sure London is open. | :00:58. | :00:57. | |
have got to make sure London is not on the other aspects. That's it | :00:58. | :00:58. | |
from us, open. Thank you. Andrew, back to | :00:59. | :00:59. | |
you. Is Theresa May serious | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
about curbing executive pay? Who will be crowned Nigel Farage's | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
successor as Ukip leader? And can the Lib Dems pull off | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
a by-election upset in Richmond? So,,, on pay talk about the | :01:12. | :01:39. | |
executive of what executives get compared to the average worker in | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
the company, giving shareholders real power to vote down pay rises if | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
they don't like them, which is pretty much what Ed Miliband | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
proposed in the general election in 2015. Is she serious about this? She | :01:50. | :01:59. | |
is very serious, and the Tory party probably does owe Ed Miliband an | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
apology for trashing his ideas and 2015 and then putting them all up | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
for votes in November 20 16. She is very serious, and this all comes | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
back to her desperate fear that unless capitalism reforms itself and | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
becomes more acceptable to the just about managing or even 78% of the | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
country who are not earning vast wealth at anywhere near the figures | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
you see in the City, serious things will happen and the political sense | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
of trust will implode. She has already been bartered down by her | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
own Cabinet on this. She wanted to go further and make workers on the | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
board mandatory. They have managed to stop that. What will her fallback | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
position be on workers on the board if she is not able to get it into | :02:44. | :02:51. | |
some claw? We would like to have workers on the board, but whatever | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
they do on the board there will have no voting powers on the board. When | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
you look at what was leaked out over the weekend, that we should know the | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
ratio of the top to the average and that shareholders who own the | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
company should determine, in the end, the highest-paid salaries, you | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
kind of think, what could the possible objection be to any of | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
that? Two things. One, I agree with Tom that she is deadly serious about | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
this agenda and it comes under the banner, that sentence in the party | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
conference speech about "It's time to focus on the good that government | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
can do". She is by instinct more of an interventionist than Cameron and | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
Osborne. But she is incredibly cautious, whether it is through the | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
internal constraints of opposition within Cabinet, or her own small C | :03:43. | :03:50. | |
Conservative caution in implementing this stuff. Part of the problem is | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
the practicalities. George Osborne commission will Hutton to do a | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
report which came out with similar proposals, which were never | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
implemented. It is quite hard to enforce. It will antagonise business | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
leaders when she's to woo them again in this Brexit furore. So there are | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
problems with it. And judging by what has happened so far, my guess | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
is that the aim will be genuinely bold and interesting, and the | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
implementation incredibly cautious. Does it matter if she annoys some | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
business leaders? Isn't that part of her brand? Will there be problems on | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
the Tory backbenches with it? I think there will be and I think it | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
does matter at this sensitive time for when we are positioning | :04:35. | :04:36. | |
ourselves as a country and whether we are going to brand ourselves as a | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
great city of business, implementing quite interventionist policies. Any | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
suggestion that the government can control how much the top earners | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
get, I think would be received in a hostile way. What would be wrong | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
with the shareholders, who own the company, determining the pay of the | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
higher hands, the executives? Morally, you can absolutely make | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
that argument but to business leaders, they will not like it. | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
Ultimately, this will not come down to more than a row of beans. There | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
was a huge debate about whether there should be quotas of women on | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
boards. In the end, that never happened. All we get is figures. But | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
quotas of women, for which there is a case and a case against too, that | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
was a government mandate. This is not, this is simply empowering | :05:27. | :05:28. | |
shareholders who own the company to determine the pay of the people they | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
hire. There is a strong moral argument for it. Strong economic | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
argument. But the Tory backbenchers will not like this. The downside is | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
that this is a world where companies are thinking about upping sticks to | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
Europe. No, they say they are thinking of that. Not one has done | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
it yet. Others have made massive investments in this country. But is | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
it not an incentive for those making these threats to actually do it? In | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
Europe, bankers' pay is now mandated by Brussels. It is a vivid way of | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
showing you are addressing the issue of inequality. I think she will go | :06:12. | :06:20. | |
with it, but let's move on to Ukip. I think we will get the result | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
tomorrow. There are the top three candidates. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
Evans and on my right, John Reid Evans. One of them will be the next | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
leader. Who is going to win? It is widely predicted to be Paul Nuttall | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
and is probably the outcome that the Labour Party fears most. Paul | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
Nuttall is a very effective communicator. He is not a household | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
name, far from it, but people will begin to learn more about him and | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
find that he is actually quite a strong leader. Can people Ukip | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
together again after this shambolic period since the referendum? If | :07:01. | :07:08. | |
anyone can, he can. And his brand of working collar, Northern Ukip is the | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
thing that will work for them. Do you think he is the favourite? It | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
would be amazing if he doesn't win. His greatest problem will be getting | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
Nigel Farage off his back. He is going on a speaking tour of North | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
America. A long speaking tour. Ukip won this EU referendum. They had the | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
chance to hoover up these discontented Labour voters in the | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
north, and all he has done is associated with Ukip with Farage. | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
But Nigel Farage is fed up of Ukip and will be glad to be hands of it. | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
The bigger problem is money. If it is Paul Nuttall, and we don't know | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
the results yet, but he is the favourite, if it is him, I would | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
suggest that that is the result Labour is frightened of most. To be | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
honest, I think they are frightened of Ukip whatever the result. | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
Possibly with good cause. The reason I qualify that is that what you call | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
a shambles over the summer has been something that goes beyond Monty | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
Python in its absurdity and madness. That calls into question whether it | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
can function as a political party when you have what has gone on. The | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
number of leaders itself has been an act of madness. In a context which | :08:26. | :08:33. | |
should be fantastic for them. They have won a referendum. There is a | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
debate about what form Brexit should take, it is a dream for them, and | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
they have gone bonkers. If he can turn it around, I agree that he is a | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
powerful media communicator, and then it is a threat to Labour. But | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
he has got to show that first. Indeed. The by-election in Richmond | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
in south-west London, called by Zac Goldsmith over Heathrow. Has it | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
turned out to be a by-election about Heathrow, or has it turned into a | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
by-election, which is what the Lib Dems wanted, about Brexit? We will | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
know on Thursday. If the Lib Dems win, they will turn it into an EU | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
referendum. It seems incredibly close now. The Lib Dems are swamping | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
Richmond. They had 1000 activists there yesterday. That is getting on | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
for 100th of the population of the place! If the Lib Dems don't manage | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
to win on Thursday and don't manage to turn it into an EU referendum | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
despite all their efforts, it will probably be a disaster for the | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
party. What do you hear, Isabel? I hear that the Lib Dems have | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
absolutely swamped the constituency, but this may backfire. I saw a bit | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
of this myself, living in Witney, when the Lib Dems also swamped and | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
people began to get fed up of their aggressive tactics. I understand | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
that Zac Goldsmith is cautiously optimistic that he will pull this | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
one off. Quick stab at the result? I don't know. But we are entering a | :10:04. | :10:11. | |
period when by-elections are acquiring significant again. If the | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
Lib Dems were to make a game, it would breathe life into that near | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
moribund party like nothing else. Similarly, other by-elections in | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
this shapeless political world we are in are going to become | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
significant. We don't know if we are covering it live on Thursday night | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
yet because we have to find at the time they are going to declare. | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
Richmond are quite late in declaring, but if it is in the early | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
hours, that is fine. If it is on breakfast television, they be not. I | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
want to show you this. Michael Gove was on the Andrew Marr Show this | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
morning. In the now notorious comment that I made, I was actually | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
cut off in midstream, as politicians often. The point I made was not that | :10:56. | :10:57. | |
all experts are that is nonsense. Expert engineers, doctors and | :10:58. | :11:08. | |
physicists are not wrong. But there is a subclass of experts, | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
particularly social scientists, who have to reflect on some of the | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
mistakes they have made. And the recession, which was predicted that | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
we would have if we voted to leave, has gone like a puff of smoke. So | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
economic experts, he talks about. The Chancellor has based all of his | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
forward predictions in this Autumn Statement on the economic expert | :11:30. | :11:37. | |
forecasters. The Office for Budget Responsibility has said it is 50-50, | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
which is the toss of a coin. But what was he supposed to do? You | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
would ideally have to have a Budget that had several sets of scenarios, | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
and that is impossible. Crystal ball territory. But you do wonder if | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
governments are right to do so much of their fiscal projections on the | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
basis of forecasts which turn out to be wrong. They have nothing else to | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
go on. The Treasury forecast is to be wrong. No doubt the OBR forecast | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
will prove not to be exact. As you say, they admitted that they are | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
navigating through fog at the moment. But he also added that it | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
was fog caused by Brexit. So Brexit, even if you accept that these | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
forecasts might be wrong, is causing such a level of uncertainty. He put | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
the figure at 60 billion. That could come to haunt him. He hasn't got a | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
clue. He admitted it. come to haunt him. He hasn't got a | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
clue. He admitted it. He said, Parliament mandates me to come up | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
with something, so I am going to give you a number. But I wouldn't | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
trust it if I were you, he basically said. I agree with you. The man who | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
borrowed 122 billion more off the back of a coin toss was Philip | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
Hammond. It begs the question, what does that say about the confidence | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
Philip Hammond has in his own government's renegotiation? Not a | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
huge amount. I agree. Philip Hammond quoted the OBR figures. He basically | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
said, this is uncertain and it looks bad, and on we go with it. It is a | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
very interesting situation, he said. He was for Remain and he works in a | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
department which regards it as a disaster, whatever everyone else | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
thinks. I have just been told we are covering the by-election. We are | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
part of the constitution. Jo Coburn will have more | :13:33. | :13:34. | |
Daily Politics tomorrow And I'll be back here on BBC One | :13:35. | :13:36. | |
next Sunday at 11. Remember - if it's Sunday, | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:41. | :13:50. |