20/11/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

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Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.


Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving


the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?


Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime


The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending


on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be


Coming up here: 18 days in the job.


The Education Minister on his plan for a single transfer test by 2018,


plus the John Lewis saga at Sprucefield takes another twist.


in London: Is the battle for join me to discuss it.


in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or


And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing


the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative,


dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott


and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.


First this morning - Theresa May has said


"Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -


who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum


Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching


the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet


Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to


deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,


100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to


making a success of Brexit for the country.


We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then,


have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity


coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we


face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind


when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,


for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving


membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what


we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat


negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and


the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards


both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position


clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to


review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what


you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards


membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure


British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new


trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at


Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house


this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.


And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on


what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union


at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs


union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and


other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are


preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing


carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we


have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do


you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is


not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the


moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we


cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement


with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.


Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We


still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade


agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do


with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave


the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the


most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime


Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be


right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have


a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a


binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the


Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I


am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had


said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the


constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not


securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,


we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that


if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade


deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do


you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with


substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access


to the single market, that goods going from this country to the


single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject


to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost


business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement


between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,


but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on


our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly


to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do


that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we


agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,


we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which


sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our


industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU


but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European


Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0%


tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and


goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of


the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.


Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules


of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for


50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of


free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view.


Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could


not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is


messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a


campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is


this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other


side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that


the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only


through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem


to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through


amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to


hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the


Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs


union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in


the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good


faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a


Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,


but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel


has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.


Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since


the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms


of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single


market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and


services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they


can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We


saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they


hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into


a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going


to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask


for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you


want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting


it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is


150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we


have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about


what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.


Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU


also means quitting the


Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free


movement of goods, services, capital and people.


They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting


politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during


Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost


certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.


When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay


"No, we should be outside the Single Market."


And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael


Gove was absolutely right to say the UK


They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before


the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the


Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving


the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area


Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,


once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually


And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said


that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some


But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what


To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're


joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain


Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave


campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many


were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was


made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12


statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the


referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.


Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian


model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went


out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading


arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the


Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade


agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the


12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself,


when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The


Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters.


They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.


But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should


stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked


about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from


Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would


have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back


to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point


stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.


Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave


movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place


in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave


campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have


highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners


over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments


accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full


thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade


agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.


There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the


clip you used on Owen Paterson first.


Only a madman would actually leave the market.


Only a madman would actually leave the market.


It's not the EU which is


a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.


It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on


I mean, are we really suggesting that the


economy in the world is not going to come to come


to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?


Are we going to be like Sudan and North


It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a


What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that


we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country


in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our


trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David


Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box


recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the


Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of


course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't


think he was about axis, he is talking


about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks


about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap


off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's


the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and


Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now,


the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and


tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the


views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.


When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that


it might be initially attractive for some business people.


So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in


the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian


option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive


for some business people. But then again for voters


who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,


they will be very concerned that it allows free movement


of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.


He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real


problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.


But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them


accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what


we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying


the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It


might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free


movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are


saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are


distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.


On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area


This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't


run. There is absolutely


nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving


the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part


of the European Economic Area and we should use our


membership of the EEA as a holding position from which


we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export


market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,


if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we


should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA


as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip


is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a


distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a


definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,


for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go


on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he


does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't


let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he


wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would


be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea


now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the


Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all


had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the


full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out


there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave


campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout


the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market


is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the


montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime


Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being


categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave


membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you


understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to


leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other


promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT


cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of


any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan


has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You


spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting


and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen


this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is


perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have


a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.


That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to


stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag


us out of our biggest trading partner.


Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up


their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week


in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest


this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -


stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from


farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,


split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're


having their second Watch as the alpha male,


the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,


the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha


female Diane James. The European Parliament


in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible


future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,


has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague


during a meeting. A few days later he is


out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my


application to become I'm actually withdrawing


myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party?


I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document


suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political


campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes


over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans,


a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for


disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,


an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side


as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast


in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told


that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,


a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance


to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated


passionate supporters who feel like they're not really


being listened to and are not even Typically what happens


is they just basically sit there until six months before


a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out


and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel


there is not an adequate flow of communication


up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in


any hustings? He left a hustings saying


the contest was an establishment coronation and has


made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty


for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear


will amongst the offences should be dealt with


decisively. But again, on an issue like that,


that is something that Our members are not


going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that


I would have any authority to have the say and determine


the future What method would you use


for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could


be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online


poll about whether you use the electric chair,


or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made


in favour of This is such a small aspect


of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media


they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant


details. This is one vote that


the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do


in this party is to revolutionise the democratic


process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should


be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip


would win at Meanwhile, in New York,


on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage


of the President-elect, a man he has described as


a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some


in this leadership contest. There are also elections


to the party's National Executive Committee, a body


that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two


of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -


Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving


each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be


the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.


Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,


forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it


really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win


seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we


need to attract more women, more ethnic


minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their


party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my


leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical


party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne


Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.


I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and


prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I


am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done


every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,


whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past


six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour


constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of


working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet


are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a


mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to


realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get


together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles


within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and


whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion


polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on


the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a


grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in


the party as well and also a background that I think means I can


help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity


faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.


There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee


going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have


ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I


think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more


open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive


Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to


be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better


communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a


clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,


Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person


who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show


you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with


President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's


decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr


Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.


I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is


President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the


campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,


pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put


the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne


Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I


said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The


better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is


quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr


Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have


that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not


out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is


according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let


me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself


in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country


ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in


2020. The other thing your leader has in


common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do


you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and


Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is


pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle


East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to


bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the


conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American


line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is


affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these


people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial


breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage


unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do


you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I


was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,


and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were


already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth


that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control


immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering


voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it


was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed


to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.


People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip


shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you


different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone


for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from


the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns,


with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa


into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,


particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I


want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the


low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national


anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks


anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John


McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for


working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.


It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I


first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic


opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at


me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have


seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death


penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more


money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to


fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our


manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come


from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being


taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the


money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because


that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on


management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,


foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership


fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It


cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are


not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you


get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.


Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25


million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer


than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away


from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?


Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.


Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you


It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.


Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.


It was the department the DUP told voters it


Now, six months on, we'll hear from the Education Minister,


Peter Weir, on his plans for dealing with the unregulated transfer tests,


improving teaching standards and resolving an industrial


Plus, the long-running battle to attract John Lewis to Sprucefield


takes a step forward as the High Court rules


a previous planning policy had been adopted unlawfully.


And with their thoughts on all of that and more,


my guests of the day are Patricia MacBride


Like academic selection or loath it, the Department for Education


has begun a formal process to find a common transfer test for children


The move has been welcomed by some, while there have also been calls


for a root and branch reform of our education system and not just


what those critics see as nothing more than the application


The Education Minister, Peter Weir, is with me now.


Very senior figures in your party - Peter Robinson, Mervyn Storey


and Arlene Foster - were determined to achieve a single


Why do you think Professor Peter Tymms can deliver it for you?


I do not think we have had a chance up until now. The approach I am


taking is very practical and sensible, which is recognition that


whilst I am a supporter of academic selection, whether you like it or


above that, it is here to stay. There is a strong demand. Secondly,


there will not be a political consensus around that. What we are


trying to do is engage to Professor Tim is with the two organisations


that are setting the test, to see if we can get a common approach between


them and reach a solution so that there can be agreement between them


on a common test. But that has been very difficult to achieve in the


past because previous ministers have discussed that an previous DUP gears


of the Department. And in terms of particularly education ministers,


previously they happy nostalgia academic selection, so any


opportunity for them to reach an agreement with organisation setting


the tests would be difficult. There are difficulties out there, strong


views held even within the organisations that are setting the


tests, but I think this is something that is worthwhile trying. Trying to


do the best we can to ensure that we did the best possible system that


began in the practical circumstances for all of our young people and


parents in schools. Who pays for it? That is one of the differences. The


GL assessment is free, parents pay for the HUD test. You're actually


saying what are the solutions before we have started the conversation.


That is one of the differences between the two organisations. That


has been discussed... And with respect, there has never been


anything of this nature in an attempt to tackle it in this way


before. Again, particularly from a departmental point of view, up until


now, we have had ministers opposed to academic selection. They will not


get that level of engagement with the organisations involved. We are


trying to say, through Professor Timms, whether we can do that


discussion and get that agreement. Would your department before it if


it had to be paid for? Would they take on cost? -- pay for it. We are


looking to prejudge outcomes. Have you ruled it out? I am not ruling


anything in or out. From that point of view, I want to see engagement


with the two organisations, to see if we can reach a common goal within


them. Indeed, ever reach agreement, I think the Department will do all


it can to facilitate that. The children's commissioner says a root


and branch reform is necessary. Not what she has called a further


sticking plaster. She says it is extremely disappointing that the


vision for education in Northern Ireland is firmly fixed on the


perpetuation of what she called academic segregation. In saying


that, she's certainly not lone voice. Academic selection, there's


been a division of opinion on that for many years. My view is that it


enhances chances because the alternative to having it is


selection purely by money. If you take a look at what happens in


England, we have very much a private school system, public school system


which essentially differentiates on the grounds of those who can afford


big fees to get the best possible education. The charges but this


system perpetuates privilege as well. The choice, the alternative,


is something a lot worse, something that would make the situation a lot


worse, because essentially it would have a much greater level of


segregation on the basis of ability today. Our system produces the


highest results in terms of the United Kingdom. It has the greatest


level of social mobility. There is a lot of things that need to happen.


The other things in terms of issues around underachievement, the focus


constantly on, at times, the test at 11, is that we need to get early


intervention to try to improve the lives of young children. You have


set yourself a pretty tight timescale. You're hoping there would


be a unified test by autumn 2018. That is within two years, so


presumably in one year's time, you would need to have some kind of


solution working its way through. How optimistic are you? That that is


achievable? I think it is achievable, certainly. Whether it


will be achievable is ultimately up to whether we can get agreement


between the organisations. We will get that teased out in the weeks to


come. We do not want talks about talks for a period of time, we need


something focus. That is why there has been a time frame indicated as


part of this. Ultimately, it is about bridging the gaps between the


two organisations in terms of where they are on a range of issues. The


time frame of something which will flow into that it we reach that


point. You have got a lot going on at the moment in your department,


not least the prospect of strike action by teachers at the end of


this month. NASUWT planning a straight for November 30 in skilled


in Belfast and Newton Abbot. Is there any possibility that there


could be some resolution between the departments and teachers in


particular to call that strike action fund deal these issues? I


would like to see them suspend action and... They would like to see


you taking the command seriously. It about equity, but what is not


actually recognises that within the settlement, there has been


incremental pay increase of which are 1.1% on the pay bill.


Incremental pay was actually, automatic, stalked in England in


2013. It equity is to happen, it has got to happen across the board. Some


teachers who love God increment, lots will not. Every teacher below


?37,500 will of God increment. They will see a rise in their salary in


relation to that. We are against a very tight budget. If we would like


to see... I would like across a range of things to be spending more


money. I would like to see better paid on that basis. But there is a


tight budget that is there and we have also got to deal with this in


the reality of the situation. Across the last two matches, a net increase


in terms of pay is over 2%. That compares in a very similar position


to what has happened elsewhere. Is there anything you can do, anything,


any movement you can deliver that will call the strike action of? They


were calling for 13% pay increase, they have also got to get into a


realistic vision in relation to that. We need to sit down and see


what we can do in terms of the pay across the remainder of the Assembly


term in 2017, onwards. So there is room for manoeuvre? There is room as


we move forward in the future, but at present there is no more money.


There is not money in a city within the department ready to be paid to


teachers. There has got to be realism in that and the real ID is


that if we inject additional cost into the system, this is simply


going to with two redundancies. There is no connection between your


position on teacher's Bay and the most recent Chief Inspector of


skills' report sent to many people here are not getting a good enough


education? Do not forget, that essentially was completed earlier on


in 2016, before there was even any decision made on teacher pay in


relation to that. I think you can also cherry-pick a lot about out of


that report, because there is also a lot to celebrate within that. We


need to focus on where we can make the intervention. That is why we


need are planning to ensure we have the best use of resources and the


most effective education system. And headteachers, if you want an


improved education system, and I am assuming you do, you have got to


fund it properly. And I will fund to the maximum extent to which there is


money available. Let us remember, across-the-board, from the


Executive, we are in a very tight financial position. Neither I nor


the Executive could plug money out of there. We have to make best


possible use of resources, actually delivering things any more effective


and efficient manner. That is why I think we need to embrace area


planning, to ensure that we have... So maybe you need to take a


difficult decision to close the more skills? You don't want to talk about


it but... With respect, we have actually started a process of a new


area plan which has been put out for consultation. I indicated the status


quo in terms of schools is not one that can be sustainable. In reality,


tough decisions will need to be made and I am prepared to make them.


Let's see what my guests of the day, Patricia MacBride


Whether you like academic selection as a policy or not,


do you accept that the Minister is committed to


Well, I am concerned that the Minister is committed to indulge in


my private companies to run a transfer test is not public demand


for. He says there is clear public demand. There is not. People are


being forced into a choice. Parents are being forced to do it because


they do not have a choice if they want to get their children into


certain skills in certain areas. The reality around academic selection is


regardless of what second level schools you go to, European vote the


same curriculum. There is not a huge difference. The Minister needs to be


focusing on looking up what he said was the academic underachievement.


-- whatever second level school you go to, you are given the same


curriculum. The focus of the Department for Education needs to be


on academic underachievement. This is a very ideological polarised


argument. The DUP has been signalling for a decade that it is


prepared to consider a practical compromise. In getting this


department to the DUP, Sinn Fein signal it would go along with


whatever came up. I know both parties have not agreed on a


compromise, but they have clearly agreed to compromise. That is the


political context we earn. Reports that are being commissioned will be


in fact taken seriously and treated objectively. If you want to


contribute to that, it is time to abandon ideological positions and


consider what can be done within the framework of this very, very


convoluted skills as we have. It would be very difficult to


streamline into an ideological leap pure position, even if everyone was


committed. Patricia's point is that it is that children who are the


underachievers in the current system you need to be more gentle and this


debate. With respect... Actually, this whole conversation has been


about the process of assessment and achieving the best for those who are


the best, but what about those involved are the gaps? Exams in --


exam results and Ireland are the best in the UK, and also I would


take issue with what Patricia said in terms of popularity in relation


to this. There are more people doing the test mode and was the case


whenever they left... Because they want their children to go to school,


they have to do it. Maybe they want to go to a post at risk that isn't


selected by a test. But let me deal with the points in terms of


underachievers. There is a high-level focus on that and to some


extent people will fund its present this as an either or. Look, quite


frankly there is a wide range of issues I am dealing with day-to-day.


That is why last week in terms of underachievement and signalled the


success of nitrogen and wanted to see them expanded. But here is a


line from your pristine. -- the success of nurturing units. The aim


is to strengthen the academic process to enable it to deliver high


quality assessment for everyone. That does not say anything about the


children who do not do it and to suffer under the current system. But


respectively, you're taking a line out of one statement in relation to


the transfer test process. What I am saying is there is a line, wide


range of issues I am focused on, a lot of which is dealing with


underachievement, dealing with that early intervention. If we have not


actually corrected the underachievement by the time we get


to 11 years old, on a lot of occasions we have missed the vote.


We need to ensure a lot of that happens before the child goes


through the gates in primary one. Let's pause for a moment to take


a look back at the political week in 60 seconds -


with Mark Devenport. Should he stay or should he go? The


Deputy First Minister thinks it is time this man considered his


position at Charter NI. Andy First Minister? How would I get involved


in employability issues in an organisation called Charter NI?


People stuck in traffic are crying out for the York Street Interchange,


but the infrastructure ministers to administer's to do last is a long


one. Various bypasses and now a water bridge... On the run from a


fresh start, a former culture on the consultative group on the past


challenges the Executive to get moving on legacy. It is time at the


two parties went together to this Government and as a test of this,


let's get past this and over this because I think it is not running


well within the victim community. And it seems every day if this could


be in the chamber. HE SPEAKS IRISH


HE CORRECTS THEM My Irish is not as good as Her


Majesty The Queen's. How did that get in there? !


It's a saga which has run for more than ten years -


the further expansion of the Sprucefied shopping centre


and the prospect of a John Lewis store opening there.


Now the High Court has set aside planning restrictions covering


the site near Lisburn which were introduced as part of


the Belfast Metropolitian Area Plan by the former Environment Minister,


Mark Durkan, but challenged by the DUP - and found by the court


Joining me are two former Environment Ministers -


Hello to you both. Thank you for joining us. Edwin Poots first of


all, why is the DUP happy to ignore the policy of town centre first to


back this expansion? Well, it has always been indicated from John


Lewis, who incidentally are in town centres across the United Kingdom,


that feasibly could only come to Northern Ireland on the basis that


they come to his Bristol centre. So it is either John Lewis with 1000


jobs go with it or we reject it, as has been the case for the past ten


years, and we have lost out to the Internet and to Dublin as a


consequence. John Lewis, in recent years, has said it favours the town


centre model. Its most recent openings have been there. So that


policy has changed?, yes, so we need to take over more seriously when


they say that in Northern Ireland the need to come to Bristol. John


Lewis says it has no problems to come to Northern at Ireland all.


Will see over the course of the next number of weeks and months, I would


be surprised if there is not a planning application lodged if we


can proceed with this. So this is pure parish pump from your point of


view? This is all about your constituency trumping everything


else? Absolutely not. There is 1000 jobs available for people who will


come from far beyond my constituency. He is -- the result of


the alternative that would also come to Northern Ireland, many town


centres across Northern Ireland, so there is the potential for many more


good quality jobs and those people on the stores of John Lewis and we


drove as they come here. They will show the dividends of the profits


that are made. OK, Alex Attwood, you were the Minister at the time when


you developed the town centre first policy, has that now been completely


satisfied? Well, I think this Government needs to be very careful


it does not cut off its nose to spite its face. If John Lewis cause


to spruce killed, it will not just be Belfast that is hurt, it will be


Ballina, Bangor, Banbridge, Lisburn city, you are. All the evidence, and


this has been proven beyond doubt, that John Lewis in Sprucefield would


have huge impact upon all of our town and city centres, and therefore


this Government needs to be very careful that it is Russia's John


Lewis into Sprucefield, it is hurting and damaging all of those of


our town and city centres. -- if it Russia's John Lewis. How would it


damage those towns any more than John Lewis in Belfast? Because when


I was minister we did a survey. The best I've ever done in terms of


retail impact at John Lewis. It shows all of the impacts of


Sprucefield. So let's try to protect all of our town and city centres,


including Belfast, because that is our premier city. By sticking


rigidly to the town centre first policy? I think we should. Of


course, you're a Belfast are presented in. We made decisions that


predicted retail in Derry, and in Belfast and in many other cities


during her time. We tried to reconfigure retail town policy back


to the town and city centres and giving that John Lewis have been so


quiet about Sprucefield in recent times, it does indicate what you are


saying to Edwin, that their preferred business model is now


small stores in town and city centres. In particular, close to the


House of Fraser. That is their preferred business model. Is that of


their preferred business model, we should accommodate it and at the


same time protect all those town and city centres that are going to


suffer, irreparably, not least Lisburn, irreparably if John Lewis


coaster. Of course, as I understand it, there are significant business


figures in Lisburn city centre who are very concerned at the prospect


of John Lewis coming to Sprucefield. Yes, and they were concerned ten


years ago and Lisburn has gone downhill over the past ten years,


unfortunately, for the policy clearly has not worked. So you just


give up on them completely? No, I think if they had John Lewis the


edge of the city, it would have brought more people to the city


centre. More people would have come to


Waitrose. When Marks Spencer opened the store at Waitrose, Liz


Burns beamed thereafter. Bringing many thousands of shoppers... Well


how do you account for the decline of the last ten years? Because John


Lewis did not come ten years ago. Had we had them ten years ago, we


would have fired tens of thousands of potential shoppers right on the


edge of Ledburn. Northern Ireland is a very small place, there is always


much money to go around. Is the point not that if John Lewis gives


Northern Ireland, whether the vast or Waitrose, notionally Northern


Ireland plc would do very well, so it does not really matter to any


great extent whether it is that site or that site? It makes a difference


about what is sustainable about town and city centres being sustainable,


about the businesses outside this building being sustainable, about


Ballina, Banbridge, Newry, Lisburn being sustainable. The folly of


Edwin's argument is that he believes that the original John Lewis


planning application, which was John Lewis and 19 other stores and cafes,


is somehow works for Liz Vernon. Clearly it does not, because Lisburn


has declined even in the absence of John Lewis. The notion that it would


prosper with that sort of skill development at Sprucefield is... It


certainly would not prosper if you put a John Lewis in the centre of


Belfast. That will not help Lisburn. But John was out there will


demonstrably help Lisburn and all the other retail centres. The


Waitrose decision is based on bringing people from the eastern


seaboard. It is right from those 2 million people, from Dublin to


Belfast. And if they were coming off away from Dublin they could not do


another ten minutes up the moderated to get to Belfast? That is John


Lewis's position. Although the figures that they looked at them to


choose Waitrose. Ten years ago. And I believe that will still be the


case. The policy has changed. People in Belfast need to stop the scorched


earth policy and bring jobs to Northern Ireland.


Let's have a final word with Patricia and Newton.


How to use spot the circle? This has been going on for 15 years, and the


world has changed. By the time John Lewis gets here, it will be a


website. Belfast City Council is starting to think about it city


deal, the entire city region including Lisburn, we need to start


thinking of it as part of Belfast, one urban area to develop. We do not


have the luxury with academic selection of debating this for


decades and decades. People are not even going into city centres to shop


at all any more. Their leisure and regional opportunities are


different. The treasure? We are talking about a ship that has


failed. John Lewis has no immediate plans to come and set up any sort of


facilities here in the north, whereas a number of years ago, 13


years ago, there were the potential of 1000 jobs they are either in


retelling or warehousing or whatever it was. That could change very


quickly. People will shop where they choose to. The real threat to our


town centres is not John Lewis at Sprucefield, it is online shopping.


That is people are choosing to spend the money. What we need to do is


acknowledge the bite that they fiasco is about bad government. It


is about one minister challenging another in a chord. Acknowledge the


fact. That is why it has taken so long to get to this position. We


should not be making law that way. Well, it is complicated. If you were


a betting man, do you think it would happen or not? I think it may happen


with just the John Lewis store at Waitrose.


That's it for now - back to Andrew in London.


That's it for now - never happened and will not happen


in four years. It is subject we should spend more time on. Back to


you. What will the Chancellor have to say


in his first big economic statement? What impact will the forecasters say


Brexit will have on the economy? And who will face the Front


National's Marine Le Pen in Well, the Shadow Chancellor


and the Chancellor have both been touring the television


studios this morning. Let's be clear, a lot of this


is going to be gimmicks and press As I've said, in the


pipeline, we've only seen one in five delivered


to construction, that's all. So a lot of this will be a repeat


of what I'm not going to reveal


what I'm going to say on We don't have unlimited


capacity, as one might imagine from listening


to John McDonnell, to borrow hundreds of billions of pounds more


for discretionary spending. That simply doesn't


exist if we're going to retain this country's hard-won


credibility in the financial markets if we are going to remain


an attractive place for business to We didn't learn very much, Helen,


but the papers were briefed this morning that there will be another


?1.3 billion for roads and things like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08% of


our GDP. Not exactly an infrastructure investment programme,


is it? Yellow like I have to say, it was not thrilling to read the


details. -- I have to say... It is the first big financial statement


that is going to come and I think there will be a big row about the


OBE are forecast because they cannot set out a range, they have to commit


to one forecast. Everything they do is incredibly political. DOB are is


on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are -- the Office for Budget


Responsibility. I don't know how they will square the circle. It is


an interesting week. It is all about the economy and public finances and


we don't have to talk about Brexit until next Sunday, but no, I have a


terrible feeling that by the end of Wednesday afternoon we will be


screaming and shouting about how Brexit is going to be for the


economy. Just imagine the Treasury comes out with his forecast that it


is going to collapse growth and collapsed Treasury takings, people


will be apoplectic. Until now, the economy has continued to grow


strongly. Pretty well. They cannot say, we have noticed it slowing down


and that will continue. They have to take a punt if they think it will


slow down. It affects the Chancellor's figures, because the


more they say it is slowing down, and I have seen that it will go from


2% down to 1.4%, the more the Chancellor's deficit rises even


without any more tax cuts and spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is


right. What we will see this week is a continuation of the debate we have


been having all along. If the Office for Budget Responsibility has


negative and gloomy predictions, there will be howls of agony, and


rightly howls of frustration from Brexiteers who will say that all the


dire predictions from before the referendum have not come to pass and


now you are talking things down in a way that becomes a self-fulfilling


prophecy. The money for roads, you were dismissive about it, but every


little helps. I don't dismiss it, I say it doesn't amount to a fiscal


stimulus in macro economic terms. I'm sure if you are on that road, it


will be useful. They are going to build a super highway between Oxford


and Cambridge. I would like to see them go out to Japan and learn how


to fill a hole in two days. I would suggest the road from Oxford to


Cambridge is not for the just managing classes, even though it


goes through Milton Keynes, and that simply freezing due freezing fuel


duty isn't going to hack it, either. These just about managing people are


potentially quite a big band. With income tax rises, it means anything


you do to help them is incredibly expensive. The universal credit


freeze is an interesting example of that. Philip Hammond sounded


ambivalent about it after pre-briefings that it might not, the


cuts might not go ahead. There are people who are in work but because


they are low paid don't have the number of hours, they require


welfare benefits to top up their pay, and these welfare benefits, as


it stands, are frozen until 2020, and yet inflation is now starting to


rise. That's a problem for the just managing people. Correct. It is


worse than that, because we are talking about April 2017 when tax


credits become universal credits, so the squeeze will be greater. We will


get a small highway between a couple of university towns, but if he has


any money left to spend at all, it will be on some pretty seismic


jazzman for the just about managing people. I am so glad we're not


calling them Jams on this programme, because it is a patronising tone.


What the Chancellor and Shadow Chancellor did not confront is that


Mr Trump's election is a watershed in terms of being able to borrow


cheaply. The Federal Reserve is about to start raising rates. The


days of cheap borrowing for governments could be coming to an


end. You can feel a bit sorry for labour here because after having had


six years of being told that we need a surplus and these things are


important, we can't deny the deficit, we have switched now and


the first thing that Philip Hammond did was to scrap George Osborne's


borrowing targets. He has given himself more wriggle room than


George Osborne had. He has and it will cost them more. Debt servicing


will now rise as a cost. Where is the next political earthquake going


to happen? It could be Italy, or the French


elections coming up next spring. Now, who will face the Front


National's Marine Le Pen in next year's French Presidential


elections? Well, France's centre-right


part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate


in the first round of Well, France's centre-right


part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate


in the first round of Let's speak to our correspondent


in Paris, Hugh Schofield. Welcome to the programme. Three main


candidates, the former -- two former prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy,


the former president. It is not clear who the front runner is.


Robbins it is quite an exciting race, because four weeks it did look


as if it was going to be Juppe. It is a two round race. Two go through


and the idea is that they rally all the support together. It looked like


the first round would be dominated by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and


there was a clear binary combination there, because Sarkozy was looking


for squeamish far right voters. In other words, veering clearly to the


right and far right on immigration and identity issues. And Juppe is


the opposite, saying we had to appeal to the centre. That was what


it looked like. But the third candidate has made this really quite


staggering surge in the last few days. There was a debate on Thursday


and he was deemed to have won it on television. He is coming up


strongly, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go through,


which would be interesting from a British perspective, because if the


becomes president, he will be the first president with a British wife.


His wife Penelope is Welsh. We will have to leave it there. I


would suggest that the reason it is fascinating is that whoever wins


this primary for the centre-right party is likely to be the next


president, and who the next president is will be very important


for Britain in these Brexit negotiations. Nothing will really


happen until it is determined. Then after the German elections in


October. I would add one more constituent part. The most important


thing about the race is who can stop Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will


almost be one of the ones in the run-off. The Socialists don't expect


much. Francois Hollande is done. There is too much of a cliff to


climb. Which one of these three centre-right candidates can stop


Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit and Trump, but we could also have


Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy, it is the battle of the right. In some


areas, he has moved to the right of marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he


has do in order to take the wind out of our sails. You wonder if she


could succeed later on if she does not this time. Talking to French


analysts last night, there was suggesting that she could not do it


this time but could win the next time. All the events in France over


the last year seemed to provide the most propitious circumstances for


her to do well, and particularly if you throw in Trump and Brexit.


Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he goes through and wins the Republican


nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen go through to the second round, that


would mean, think about it, is that a lot of French socialist voters and


those on the father left would have to grit their teeth and vote for


Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do it. We might see what we saw in


America, where lots of potential Clinton voters did not turn out. You


got politicians like Melanchon on the far left saying there are


foreign workers taking bread out of French workers' mounts. We sometimes


forget, because we tend to emphasise the National of the National front,


but actually, there are economic policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is


the Hillary Clinton of the French elections. He is Mr establishment.


Juppe and the other third candidate are the same. You have to


re-establish candidates running against an antiestablishment


candidate. There are populist economic policies from the National


front. The other three want to raise the retirement age and cut back on


the 35 hour week, which are not classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe


used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux. And we are the biggest importers of


claret, so that could have an effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear


against John Marine Le Pen, and the socialist campaign slogan was, vote


for the Crook, not the fascist. We will see what they come up with this


time. The Daily Politics is back at noon


tomorrow on BBC Two, where on Wednesday I will have full


coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn But remember, if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics.


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