12/06/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


12/06/2016

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.

4:39:154:39:18

The EU referendum campaign is at its height.

4:39:184:39:20

With less than a fortnight to the vote,

4:39:204:39:22

the Leave and Remain camps are fighting hard to convince

4:39:224:39:25

the electorate how life here would be if we stay or go.

4:39:254:39:28

We'll hear from the former Director-General of

4:39:284:39:30

the World Trade Organization who's warning of the damage he says

4:39:304:39:33

a Brexit would inflict on our economy.

4:39:334:39:36

This would be an act of wanton destruction, of economic viability

4:39:364:39:43

for Britain, and Northern Ireland in particular, to leave this market.

4:39:434:39:49

But the Leave campaign believes getting

4:39:494:39:51

out of the European Union can only be good for trade.

4:39:514:39:54

We'll hear the views of the Secretary of State,

4:39:544:39:56

Theresa Villiers.

4:39:564:39:58

And with their thoughts on all of that and more,

4:39:584:40:00

my guests of the day are Felicity Huston and Chris Donnelly.

4:40:004:40:03

It's been a campaign of claim and counter-claim, and it's set

4:40:104:40:13

to get more intense in the run-up to the big vote on June the 23rd.

4:40:134:40:17

Farming, immigration and border controls are all issues,

4:40:174:40:20

but the main focus has been on the economy,

4:40:204:40:23

and the potential impact here on investment and jobs.

4:40:234:40:26

The Dublin-born former European Commissioner

4:40:264:40:28

and founding Director-General of the World Trade Organization,

4:40:284:40:31

Peter Sutherland, has been warning of the consequences of a Brexit.

4:40:314:40:35

When I spoke to him earlier in the week, I began by asking him

4:40:354:40:38

why he believes leaving the EU would be so bad for the UK economy?

4:40:384:40:43

Well, for the same reasons that every independent analyst in

4:40:434:40:48

the world, virtually, has said

4:40:484:40:50

it would be bad for Britain,

4:40:504:40:52

the IMF has said it, the governor of the Bank of England has said it,

4:40:524:40:56

the Treasury has said it, the Prime Minister, the OECD has said it.

4:40:564:41:04

It will cause a grave,

4:41:044:41:06

serious and prolonged period of great uncertainty.

4:41:064:41:11

It will disrupt trade flows

4:41:114:41:13

and will create a major problem for the British economy.

4:41:134:41:18

And within that context, there is no area in the United Kingdom that will

4:41:184:41:26

suffer more wanton destruction, in my view, than Northern Ireland.

4:41:264:41:31

What do you think then would be the impact specifically

4:41:314:41:34

on the Northern Ireland economy

4:41:344:41:36

if the vote on June 23 is for the UK to leave the European Union?

4:41:364:41:40

It will create major problems, in my opinion,

4:41:414:41:46

and this seems to be corroborated by the

4:41:464:41:49

Chancellor of the Exchequer in what he said in recent days

4:41:494:41:52

in terms of inward investment,

4:41:524:41:55

in terms of the difficulties of trading even within

4:41:554:42:00

the island of Ireland.

4:42:004:42:03

It will cause major difficulties in terms of the future exporting

4:42:034:42:08

capacity of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland towards Europe.

4:42:084:42:14

It will damage Northern Ireland's agriculture seriously,

4:42:144:42:19

again, as the Chancellor has pointed out.

4:42:194:42:22

It is, to me, incredible that any political force in Northern Ireland

4:42:224:42:30

could conceivably consider that this could be a good thing

4:42:304:42:34

for Northern Ireland, including the Secretary of State.

4:42:344:42:38

Well, the Secretary of State obviously takes a different view

4:42:384:42:41

to yours, as does our DUP First Minister and Economy Minister.

4:42:414:42:45

And they all believe that Northern Ireland

4:42:454:42:48

and the UK would be better off outside the European Union.

4:42:484:42:51

They say, we'd be perfectly capable of trading internationally,

4:42:514:42:54

as we currently do, and the UK Government would replace

4:42:544:42:58

EU subsidies from the revenues it's no longer sending off to Brussels.

4:42:584:43:02

They, as you expressed,

4:43:024:43:03

are a tiny minority in global political and economic circles.

4:43:034:43:11

Everybody, from the President of the United States

4:43:114:43:14

to the head of the IMF, to prime ministers of Commonwealth countries

4:43:144:43:18

like New Zealand, Canada and Australia

4:43:184:43:22

think that this would be a bad thing for Britain, a bad thing for

4:43:224:43:26

Europe, and it will certainly be a bad thing for Northern Ireland.

4:43:264:43:30

The Leave campaigners say that is a cosy international cabal

4:43:304:43:34

of self-interested individuals and organisations who don't want change

4:43:344:43:39

because change would damage their future prospects,

4:43:394:43:43

even though it might be better for the average man

4:43:434:43:45

and woman on the street.

4:43:454:43:47

That, to my mind, is so ludicrous that it barely requires a response.

4:43:474:43:52

Is this true of the Governor of the Bank of England?

4:43:524:43:54

Is it true of the Treasury?

4:43:544:43:56

Is it true of the head of the IMF?

4:43:564:43:59

Is it true of the head of the WTO?

4:43:594:44:01

It's ludicrous to describe them as a "cabal" who, in some way,

4:44:014:44:06

are trying to protect their own interests.

4:44:064:44:08

You are a former Director-General of the World Trade Organization

4:44:084:44:11

and a former Chairman of BP, the UK's largest company.

4:44:114:44:15

What do you think the impact would be on Northern Ireland

4:44:154:44:19

trying to attempt foreign direct investment

4:44:194:44:22

if the vote on June 23rd is to leave?

4:44:224:44:25

I think it would definitely have the effect

4:44:254:44:30

of causing investors to go

4:44:304:44:34

to another place within the European Union because those who invest in

4:44:344:44:40

Ireland, north or south, are doing so because it provides them with a

4:44:404:44:46

manufacturing base to sell to the European Union,

4:44:464:44:50

and the uncertainty,

4:44:504:44:52

the borders that will be created by Britain leaving,

4:44:524:44:57

the inevitable period of prolonged negotiation

4:44:574:45:01

will lead to a drying up of investment.

4:45:014:45:06

You know that Leave campaigners say that the European Union market

4:45:064:45:11

is a shrinking market, that Britain,

4:45:114:45:13

the UK and Northern Ireland needs to look to other markets globally

4:45:134:45:17

which are growing, and that is where it should be trading.

4:45:174:45:20

The first thing that will happen will be that there will be

4:45:204:45:24

a recognition that what you describe as a decline in economic area

4:45:244:45:29

is an area of 500 million people.

4:45:294:45:32

It is the wealthiest area, 29% of global GDP.

4:45:324:45:36

It is enormously important for British exports today.

4:45:364:45:42

It cannot be supplanted by the tiny fraction of those exports

4:45:424:45:47

that today go to places like India and China.

4:45:474:45:50

The second point is that if Britain leaves,

4:45:504:45:54

borders will be created with the rest of Europe.

4:45:544:45:57

Goods will have to be checked.

4:45:574:45:59

Borders will have to be applied, in terms of tariffs

4:45:594:46:03

and nontariff barriers to goods that at the moment can freely pass

4:46:034:46:09

across borders throughout Europe.

4:46:094:46:12

This would be an act of wanton destruction of economic viability

4:46:124:46:19

for Britain and Northern Ireland, in particular, to leave this market

4:46:194:46:24

and create years of uncertainty and negotiation about the future.

4:46:244:46:30

And what do you think directly the implications would be

4:46:304:46:33

of a vote to leave on

4:46:334:46:35

the relationship between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland,

4:46:354:46:38

and specifically between Northern Ireland and the Republic?

4:46:384:46:41

The border between the Republic and Northern Ireland will become

4:46:414:46:47

a border of the European Union, with somebody outside the European Union.

4:46:474:46:52

This will create a border control requirement of a kind

4:46:544:47:00

that we had thought banished to history.

4:47:004:47:03

If, in some perverted way,

4:47:044:47:07

there is an ideological desire to recreate that border,

4:47:074:47:11

it is an act that would be incredibly foolish

4:47:114:47:15

and very damaging.

4:47:154:47:17

Enda Kenny voiced his concerns at the possibility of a Leave vote.

4:47:174:47:22

The First Minister Arlene Foster suggested

4:47:224:47:24

diplomatically that he should mind his own business.

4:47:244:47:28

Do you think you should be still involved in the debate?

4:47:284:47:31

Well, if that suggestion that he should mind his own business

4:47:314:47:37

was meant seriously, it shows the naivete

4:47:374:47:40

that is utterly surprising of a serious politician.

4:47:404:47:44

Of course it is his interest, as it's everybody's interest on the

4:47:444:47:48

island of Ireland and more generally that this debate should be

4:47:484:47:53

conducted in a way that recognises the damage done to both economies,

4:47:534:47:59

north and south, by Brexit.

4:47:594:48:02

It would be ludicrous for him not to express his concern,

4:48:024:48:07

because it is entirely legitimate.

4:48:074:48:10

Peter Sutherland pulling no punches in terms of how

4:48:104:48:13

he sees the future for the UK outside the European Union.

4:48:134:48:16

Listening to that in London is the Secretary of State,

4:48:164:48:19

Theresa Villiers,

4:48:194:48:21

who is campaigning, of course, to leave the EU.

4:48:214:48:23

Secretary of State, thanks very much indeed for joining us today.

4:48:234:48:26

How do you respond to Mr Sutherland's view there that

4:48:264:48:29

it's, to quote him,

4:48:294:48:30

"Incredible that any political force in Northern Ireland could

4:48:304:48:34

"conceivably consider that a vote to leave could be a good

4:48:344:48:37

"thing for Northern Ireland"?

4:48:374:48:39

Well, I think a vote to leave would be great for Northern Ireland

4:48:394:48:42

because it would enable us in this country to control,

4:48:424:48:45

take back democratic control over making our own laws.

4:48:454:48:48

As you've pointed out in your interview, it enables us

4:48:484:48:52

to take back control over our own trade policies

4:48:524:48:55

so that we can make deals not just with the European Union to

4:48:554:48:58

enable business to go on with the rest of the EU,

4:48:584:49:01

but also with countries around the world where they have huge markets.

4:49:014:49:05

Those could open up fantastic opportunities

4:49:054:49:08

for Northern Ireland and create jobs and opportunities for young people.

4:49:084:49:12

Well, the Prime Minister doesn't agree.

4:49:124:49:13

He was talking to Andrew Marr this morning.

4:49:134:49:15

He said, "If we vote to leave, we are voting

4:49:154:49:17

"for a self-inflicted recession.

4:49:174:49:19

"They'll never give us a better deal on the outside of the EU

4:49:194:49:22

"than they will on the inside."

4:49:224:49:24

So the Prime Minister has got it wrong, has he?

4:49:244:49:26

Well, I feel deeply uncomfortable

4:49:264:49:28

being on the other side of this debate from the Prime Minister,

4:49:284:49:30

but the fact is that the EU sells a lot more to us than we do to them.

4:49:304:49:35

So it's in their interest to do a free-trade deal with us,

4:49:354:49:39

as they have with countries everywhere

4:49:394:49:41

between Iceland and the Russian border.

4:49:414:49:43

It's just not credible to say that we'd be excluded

4:49:434:49:46

from that kind of free trade deal

4:49:464:49:47

that others with far less important markets for the EU

4:49:474:49:51

have managed to agree with them.

4:49:514:49:53

It would take a very long time to sort those details out, though,

4:49:534:49:56

that is the point made by the Prime Minister

4:49:564:49:57

and also by Peter Sutherland, there -

4:49:574:49:59

that we would have years of not knowing precisely what the terms

4:49:594:50:03

of any future deal would be

4:50:034:50:05

and, in the meantime, foreign direct investment would go elsewhere,

4:50:054:50:08

and that would be a catastrophe,

4:50:084:50:10

"an act of wanton destruction", he said,

4:50:104:50:12

for the Northern Ireland economy.

4:50:124:50:13

But, you know, people like Peter Sutherland

4:50:134:50:15

and other, sort of, so-called experts

4:50:154:50:17

said that inward investment was suddenly going to dry up

4:50:174:50:21

if we didn't join the euro,

4:50:214:50:22

and here we are, more than a decade after the euro's creation,

4:50:224:50:26

and we are doing far better whilst retaining our own currency.

4:50:264:50:29

There is no reason why we can't press ahead pretty rapidly

4:50:294:50:32

with trade deals with the rest of the world,

4:50:324:50:35

and all of the projections, all of the gloomy reports

4:50:354:50:40

that have been published,

4:50:404:50:41

even with their pessimistic assumptions,

4:50:414:50:43

they all say that in the medium to long term,

4:50:434:50:46

we are certainly continuing to grow.

4:50:464:50:48

If Europe was so great for jobs,

4:50:484:50:52

why have they got massive levels of youth unemployment

4:50:524:50:55

in places like Greece and Spain?

4:50:554:50:57

It is the EU that is failing economically, not us.

4:50:574:51:00

The difficulty for you, of course, is that you are,

4:51:004:51:03

as Peter Sutherland says, "in a tiny minority

4:51:034:51:06

"in global, political and economic circles."

4:51:064:51:09

You referred to Peter Sutherland as a so-called expert.

4:51:094:51:11

He is much more of a so-called expert

4:51:114:51:13

than Theresa Villiers is a so-called expert.

4:51:134:51:16

I mean, he listed the individuals and organisations

4:51:164:51:18

who believe that Brexit would be a very bad idea.

4:51:184:51:21

Surely on balance, people, when they look at it,

4:51:214:51:24

are likely to say, "Well, we'll believe the IMF

4:51:244:51:26

"and the WTO, the Governor of the Bank of England

4:51:264:51:28

"and the Treasurer and various prime ministers and presidents,

4:51:284:51:31

"rather than Michael Gove and Boris Johnson

4:51:314:51:33

"and Theresa Villiers", with respect.

4:51:334:51:35

Well, every individual in this country

4:51:354:51:37

will have the choice before him,

4:51:374:51:40

and they can look at the facts.

4:51:404:51:42

They can look at the fact

4:51:424:51:43

that we don't control our immigration policy in this country.

4:51:434:51:46

They can look at the fact that we send several billions of pounds

4:51:464:51:50

to Europe every year.

4:51:504:51:51

They can look at the fact that the Eurozone has an in-built majority

4:51:514:51:55

that can out-vote us again and again and again.

4:51:554:51:58

So, effectively, we are no longer an independent country.

4:51:584:52:00

I think it's time we took back control over making our laws

4:52:004:52:04

so we become an independent self-governing democracy again.

4:52:044:52:07

So Peter Sutherland made it very clear that if that happens,

4:52:074:52:09

there will be major implications for border control -

4:52:094:52:13

movement of people and goods

4:52:134:52:15

between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland,

4:52:154:52:17

the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom.

4:52:174:52:20

Now, the North Down MP, Lady Hermon, challenged you on Friday

4:52:204:52:23

to explain precisely how would the border work

4:52:234:52:26

between the Republic and Northern Ireland

4:52:264:52:28

if a vote for Brexit happens.

4:52:284:52:30

How would it work? Spell it out for us.

4:52:304:52:32

It would work the way it does today.

4:52:324:52:34

We've had a Common Travel Area between the UK and Ireland

4:52:344:52:37

for nearly 100 years.

4:52:374:52:39

But it would be entirely different, with respect, in future,

4:52:394:52:41

because you would have one country in the EU,

4:52:414:52:44

the Republic of Ireland in that scenario,

4:52:444:52:46

and the rest of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland,

4:52:464:52:49

outside the European Union,

4:52:494:52:51

so you wouldn't have two equal parties,

4:52:514:52:53

two equal countries in future.

4:52:534:52:55

The scenario would be completely different.

4:52:554:52:57

The Common Travel Area already includes

4:52:574:52:59

places like Guernsey and the Jersey, which are not members of the EU.

4:52:594:53:02

-Which are tiny.

-It existed before we joined the EU

4:53:024:53:06

and it will certainly exist after we leave.

4:53:064:53:08

After all, it survived a civil war, a world war

4:53:084:53:10

and 30 years of the Troubles.

4:53:104:53:12

It is in the interest of the UK and Ireland that it continues.

4:53:124:53:15

The Irish Ambassador to London has on his website

4:53:154:53:19

that the Common Travel Area will be maintained

4:53:194:53:21

in the event of a Brexit vote.

4:53:214:53:23

It's going to continue as it is today.

4:53:234:53:26

But those negotiations for the future shape of that relationship

4:53:264:53:29

would be conducted, not between

4:53:294:53:32

the Republic of Ireland and the UK governments,

4:53:324:53:35

but they'd be between the UK government and the European Union.

4:53:354:53:38

It wouldn't be a bilateral discussion any more.

4:53:384:53:40

So you couldn't be sure precisely what the powers that be

4:53:404:53:42

in Brussels and Strasbourg would be prepared to accept.

4:53:424:53:45

The point is, it wouldn't be up to Enda Kenny.

4:53:454:53:47

But it's clearly in the interest of both the UK and Ireland

4:53:474:53:50

that we maintain the Common Travel Area.

4:53:504:53:53

So you are saying that the EU would seek to punish Ireland

4:53:534:53:55

for a decision that the United Kingdom has made.

4:53:554:53:57

But that is what David Cameron said this morning,

4:53:574:54:00

whenever he said, "You'll never get a deal on the outside

4:54:004:54:03

"that's as good as a deal on the inside."

4:54:034:54:05

He seemed to be suggesting

4:54:054:54:07

that there would be a degree of punishment, potentially,

4:54:074:54:09

if there's a vote to leave.

4:54:094:54:11

Well, it's much safer to take back control over making our laws,

4:54:114:54:14

so we avoid that kind of EU punishment.

4:54:144:54:16

There is much more scope for the EU to punish us

4:54:164:54:19

if we vote to stay in.

4:54:194:54:20

They can out-vote us on everything they choose to.

4:54:204:54:24

The reality is it's a scare story around the border.

4:54:244:54:27

It's perfectly possible to manage an open border

4:54:274:54:29

with the Republic of Ireland.

4:54:294:54:31

We had one before we joined the EU,

4:54:314:54:33

there is no reason why we can't continue with one after we leave.

4:54:334:54:37

And you have no concern about immigrants?

4:54:374:54:40

You talk about securing the borders,

4:54:404:54:42

various members of the DUP in conversations I've had with them

4:54:424:54:44

and other political discussions that they've taken part in

4:54:444:54:47

have talked about needing to make sure that we have secure borders,

4:54:474:54:52

that we deal with the issue of the international terrorist threat.

4:54:524:54:55

If there is no hard border after Brexit

4:54:554:54:59

between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland,

4:54:594:55:01

this would be a very soft back door for undesirables

4:55:014:55:05

to come into the United Kingdom.

4:55:054:55:07

That's the logic of that situation. You just wouldn't face up to that?

4:55:074:55:10

You wouldn't deal with it? You wouldn't need extra checks?

4:55:104:55:13

I think there are already risks that are associated

4:55:134:55:16

with our open-land border, and they are managed effectively today

4:55:164:55:19

through bilateral cooperation between authorities

4:55:194:55:21

in the UK and Ireland.

4:55:214:55:23

The magnitude of those risks wouldn't increase significantly.

4:55:234:55:27

The reality is that if... The idea of thousands

4:55:274:55:31

of non-Irish EU citizens suddenly flooding across the border

4:55:314:55:35

in the event of a Brexit vote and a change in the rules on free movement

4:55:354:55:39

is far-fetched.

4:55:394:55:40

But if there was, if people did seek to cross the border

4:55:404:55:44

without the appropriate permission to enter,

4:55:444:55:47

there are ways in which we can control those matters,

4:55:474:55:51

which don't involve physical border checks,

4:55:514:55:53

because someone coming across the border wouldn't be able to work,

4:55:534:55:56

they wouldn't be able to claim benefits,

4:55:564:55:58

they wouldn't be able to rent property,

4:55:584:56:00

they wouldn't be able to open a bank account,

4:56:004:56:02

and, in extreme cases, they could be deported.

4:56:024:56:05

Those are the ways in which we will control the risks

4:56:054:56:08

associated with an open-land border,

4:56:084:56:10

rather than to erect the physical checks

4:56:104:56:13

that the scare stories would suggest.

4:56:134:56:15

OK. I just want to move on to one final subject before we let you go,

4:56:154:56:19

that's Loughinisland.

4:56:194:56:21

The SDLP's South Down MP, Margaret Ritchie,

4:56:214:56:23

has said, "You must state clearly if you accept

4:56:234:56:26

"the findings of the Loughinisland Report,

4:56:264:56:28

"published last week, in its entirety.

4:56:284:56:30

"If you do not, then you must resign as Secretary of State."

4:56:304:56:34

I just want to be very clear - of course I accept the report.

4:56:344:56:38

I support the work of the Police Ombudsman,

4:56:384:56:41

and I think it's important that further investigations

4:56:414:56:44

take place as a result of the conclusions that he's reached.

4:56:444:56:48

So you accept fully that there was collusion

4:56:484:56:52

in the Loughinisland murders,

4:56:524:56:54

you are in full agreement, are you, with the Chief Constable

4:56:544:56:57

when he made that point?

4:56:574:56:58

There's no division between your worldview?

4:56:584:57:00

Because you have seemed to suggest in the past

4:57:004:57:02

that there were pernicious and distorting interpretations,

4:57:024:57:07

in terms of collusion. You're clarifying that you don't think that

4:57:074:57:10

in the case of Loughinisland

4:57:104:57:12

and you are in agreement with George Hamilton?

4:57:124:57:14

Well, I accept the statement made both by the Chief Constable

4:57:144:57:18

and the report.

4:57:184:57:20

It is, though, consistent with the speech I made in February,

4:57:204:57:24

that whilst, of course, there are some truly shocking instances

4:57:244:57:28

of wrongdoing by members of the security forces during the Troubles,

4:57:284:57:32

that's deeply regrettable,

4:57:324:57:33

and where it's happened, they need to be held to account,

4:57:334:57:36

and obviously there was serious wrongdoing in this case.

4:57:364:57:39

But I think it is important also to emphasise

4:57:394:57:42

that the vast majority of members of the police and armed services

4:57:424:57:46

doing their duty during the Troubles

4:57:464:57:48

did so with professionalism and entirely within the law.

4:57:484:57:52

OK, all right. We will leave it there, Secretary of State.

4:57:524:57:54

Thanks very much indeed for joining us from London this morning.

4:57:544:57:57

Let's hear what my guests of the day,

4:57:574:57:59

Felicity Huston and Chris Donnelly, make of all of that.

4:57:594:58:02

We'll come on to Loughinisland in a moment or two.

4:58:024:58:04

Let's talk about the EU referendum first of all.

4:58:044:58:08

Felicity, what did you make of the Secretary of State's response

4:58:084:58:12

to Peter Sutherland?

4:58:124:58:14

Peter Sutherland is not a man to be underestimated.

4:58:144:58:18

He has got a pretty significant CV.

4:58:184:58:20

You weren't persuaded by anything he had to say, were you?

4:58:204:58:23

Peter Sutherland is the man who chaired Goldman Sachs International,

4:58:234:58:26

"The great vampire squid on the face of humanity",

4:58:264:58:29

as Rolling Stone described Goldman Sachs.

4:58:294:58:31

He was also sitting on the board of RBS

4:58:314:58:33

when Fred Goodwin was running mad, and nearly bankrupt the country.

4:58:334:58:36

I don't agree with him.

4:58:364:58:37

He has a very specific worldview, doesn't he?

4:58:374:58:40

He thinks that globalisation is it, we must go for it,

4:58:404:58:43

corporatism is it, big companies, that's the way it should be.

4:58:434:58:47

That's what he's done all his life.

4:58:474:58:49

Of course he sees it like that.

4:58:494:58:51

He doesn't look at democratic deficits and things like that.

4:58:514:58:54

That's not his view.

4:58:544:58:55

Chris, which of the two persuaded you?

4:58:554:58:57

Well, I would go more with what Peter Sutherland was saying.

4:58:574:59:00

Up to this point, looking from a North of Ireland perspective,

4:59:004:59:03

this has been a very British discussion, for obvious reasons.

4:59:034:59:06

The fact that Peter Sutherland is now speaking in such strident terms,

4:59:064:59:09

the fact that Enda Kenny has become increasingly involved,

4:59:094:59:12

I think he's canvassing in Britain this week,

4:59:124:59:14

shows that from the Irish State's perspective,

4:59:144:59:17

the levels of anxiety on the Remain side are getting very high

4:59:174:59:21

and they have to speak almost in a selfish, strategic sense

4:59:214:59:24

in terms of the interests,

4:59:244:59:25

what they see as interests of the Irish State.

4:59:254:59:27

Very clearly, they see that with the Remain side winning.

4:59:274:59:31

OK, very briefly, what do you see the border scenario looking like

4:59:314:59:35

in the event of a Brexit vote on June 23rd,

4:59:354:59:38

which is what you want to see?

4:59:384:59:39

I do, yes, that's right.

4:59:394:59:40

I think we should leave for all sorts of reasons.

4:59:404:59:43

I think... I mean, I'm not an expert

4:59:434:59:44

on immigration procedures and policies.

4:59:444:59:47

I think it will be a bit like travelling to other countries.

4:59:474:59:50

When you go to Switzerland, from other parts of the EU,

4:59:504:59:52

you don't go through massive queues and border controls and things.

4:59:524:59:56

With modern technology,

4:59:564:59:58

that automatic...thing they have

4:59:585:00:03

for your car registration numbers, readings like that,

5:00:035:00:06

that is the sort of stuff we'll use for checking goods

5:00:065:00:08

and so on going through.

5:00:085:00:10

I think bringing the border back physically,

5:00:105:00:12

in a visible sense, is a very psychological move,

5:00:125:00:15

and I think that this discussion is something that's going to

5:00:155:00:17

almost incentivise nationalists in the North to turn out.

5:00:175:00:20

OK, all right. Let's just pause for a moment

5:00:205:00:22

and take a look back at the political week gone

5:00:225:00:25

past in 60 seconds, with Gareth Gordon.

5:00:255:00:27

An independent panel made its pitch

5:00:325:00:35

on disbanding paramilitary groups.

5:00:355:00:37

We are an executive absolutely united

5:00:375:00:39

in facing down the criminal gangs

5:00:395:00:41

and paramilitary groups within our society

5:00:415:00:44

who are determined to plunge us back to the past.

5:00:445:00:46

The Police Ombudsman found there was collusion

5:00:465:00:50

between some RUC officers and the UVF gang

5:00:505:00:53

behind the Loughinisland massacre.

5:00:535:00:55

Two former prime ministers arrived in Northern Ireland

5:00:555:00:58

predicting Brexit could spell trouble for the peace process.

5:00:585:01:02

It would throw all the pieces of the constitutional jigsaw

5:01:025:01:05

up into the air again.

5:01:055:01:07

But those in the Leave campaign were outraged.

5:01:075:01:09

Two former prime ministers of the United Kingdom arrived

5:01:095:01:12

and they made an outrageous and disgraceful assertion.

5:01:125:01:16

Though at Stormont, the focus was already shifting

5:01:165:01:19

to the other big European story.

5:01:195:01:21

Robbie Keane or Kyle Lafferty?

5:01:215:01:24

You're asking a Fermanagh person, Robbie Keane or Kyle Lafferty?

5:01:245:01:27

Kyle Lafferty.

5:01:275:01:29

What about Robbie Keane AND Kyle Lafferty?

5:01:295:01:31

CHUCKLING

5:01:315:01:32

Gareth Gordon ending his report with a bit of sport

5:01:385:01:40

at the Executive Office Committee.

5:01:405:01:43

Just a final word from Felicity and Chris.

5:01:435:01:45

Chris, just to pick up on that conversation

5:01:455:01:47

with the Secretary of State about Loughinisland,

5:01:475:01:49

what do you make about where we are?

5:01:495:01:50

Do you think she clarified her position for us today?

5:01:505:01:53

Yes, I think she did. I think that would have been important

5:01:535:01:55

from her perspective because of what Margaret Ritchie had said.

5:01:555:01:58

But all these places involved in the past are important on two levels.

5:01:585:02:01

One for the families and their personal searches

5:02:015:02:03

for truth and justice, but secondly for the rest of us

5:02:035:02:05

in terms of society. The past remains an uncomfortable place.

5:02:055:02:08

It's contested terrain.

5:02:085:02:09

Issues like collusion feed directly into competing narratives

5:02:095:02:13

with regard to the past and present.

5:02:135:02:14

That's a conversation that is just going to be continuing

5:02:145:02:18

-in this society going forward.

-Felicity?

5:02:185:02:20

I think Ben Lowry from the News Letter yesterday

5:02:205:02:22

made a very interesting contribution to this discussion

5:02:225:02:25

on what you were raising with Theresa about collusion

5:02:255:02:27

and the meaning of it and this sort of thing.

5:02:275:02:29

It's an article worth looking at.

5:02:295:02:31

He's really obviously thought quite hard

5:02:315:02:33

about how language in Northern Ireland

5:02:335:02:34

has always been an issue.

5:02:345:02:36

Things are being turned and changed, their meaning,

5:02:365:02:38

and the impact it's having on us.

5:02:385:02:40

OK. Language has always been contested, that's for sure.

5:02:405:02:43

We'll leave it there. Thank you, both, very much indeed.

5:02:435:02:45

That's it from Sunday Politics for this week.

5:02:455:02:47

Join me for Stormont Today on BBC Two at 11.15 tomorrow night.

5:02:475:02:50

Until then, from all of us, bye-bye.

5:02:505:02:52

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