Browse content similar to 12/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics. | 4:39:15 | 4:39:18 | |
The EU referendum campaign is at its height. | 4:39:18 | 4:39:20 | |
With less than a fortnight to the vote, | 4:39:20 | 4:39:22 | |
the Leave and Remain camps are fighting hard to convince | 4:39:22 | 4:39:25 | |
the electorate how life here would be if we stay or go. | 4:39:25 | 4:39:28 | |
We'll hear from the former Director-General of | 4:39:28 | 4:39:30 | |
the World Trade Organization who's warning of the damage he says | 4:39:30 | 4:39:33 | |
a Brexit would inflict on our economy. | 4:39:33 | 4:39:36 | |
This would be an act of wanton destruction, of economic viability | 4:39:36 | 4:39:43 | |
for Britain, and Northern Ireland in particular, to leave this market. | 4:39:43 | 4:39:49 | |
But the Leave campaign believes getting | 4:39:49 | 4:39:51 | |
out of the European Union can only be good for trade. | 4:39:51 | 4:39:54 | |
We'll hear the views of the Secretary of State, | 4:39:54 | 4:39:56 | |
Theresa Villiers. | 4:39:56 | 4:39:58 | |
And with their thoughts on all of that and more, | 4:39:58 | 4:40:00 | |
my guests of the day are Felicity Huston and Chris Donnelly. | 4:40:00 | 4:40:03 | |
It's been a campaign of claim and counter-claim, and it's set | 4:40:10 | 4:40:13 | |
to get more intense in the run-up to the big vote on June the 23rd. | 4:40:13 | 4:40:17 | |
Farming, immigration and border controls are all issues, | 4:40:17 | 4:40:20 | |
but the main focus has been on the economy, | 4:40:20 | 4:40:23 | |
and the potential impact here on investment and jobs. | 4:40:23 | 4:40:26 | |
The Dublin-born former European Commissioner | 4:40:26 | 4:40:28 | |
and founding Director-General of the World Trade Organization, | 4:40:28 | 4:40:31 | |
Peter Sutherland, has been warning of the consequences of a Brexit. | 4:40:31 | 4:40:35 | |
When I spoke to him earlier in the week, I began by asking him | 4:40:35 | 4:40:38 | |
why he believes leaving the EU would be so bad for the UK economy? | 4:40:38 | 4:40:43 | |
Well, for the same reasons that every independent analyst in | 4:40:43 | 4:40:48 | |
the world, virtually, has said | 4:40:48 | 4:40:50 | |
it would be bad for Britain, | 4:40:50 | 4:40:52 | |
the IMF has said it, the governor of the Bank of England has said it, | 4:40:52 | 4:40:56 | |
the Treasury has said it, the Prime Minister, the OECD has said it. | 4:40:56 | 4:41:04 | |
It will cause a grave, | 4:41:04 | 4:41:06 | |
serious and prolonged period of great uncertainty. | 4:41:06 | 4:41:11 | |
It will disrupt trade flows | 4:41:11 | 4:41:13 | |
and will create a major problem for the British economy. | 4:41:13 | 4:41:18 | |
And within that context, there is no area in the United Kingdom that will | 4:41:18 | 4:41:26 | |
suffer more wanton destruction, in my view, than Northern Ireland. | 4:41:26 | 4:41:31 | |
What do you think then would be the impact specifically | 4:41:31 | 4:41:34 | |
on the Northern Ireland economy | 4:41:34 | 4:41:36 | |
if the vote on June 23 is for the UK to leave the European Union? | 4:41:36 | 4:41:40 | |
It will create major problems, in my opinion, | 4:41:41 | 4:41:46 | |
and this seems to be corroborated by the | 4:41:46 | 4:41:49 | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer in what he said in recent days | 4:41:49 | 4:41:52 | |
in terms of inward investment, | 4:41:52 | 4:41:55 | |
in terms of the difficulties of trading even within | 4:41:55 | 4:42:00 | |
the island of Ireland. | 4:42:00 | 4:42:03 | |
It will cause major difficulties in terms of the future exporting | 4:42:03 | 4:42:08 | |
capacity of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland towards Europe. | 4:42:08 | 4:42:14 | |
It will damage Northern Ireland's agriculture seriously, | 4:42:14 | 4:42:19 | |
again, as the Chancellor has pointed out. | 4:42:19 | 4:42:22 | |
It is, to me, incredible that any political force in Northern Ireland | 4:42:22 | 4:42:30 | |
could conceivably consider that this could be a good thing | 4:42:30 | 4:42:34 | |
for Northern Ireland, including the Secretary of State. | 4:42:34 | 4:42:38 | |
Well, the Secretary of State obviously takes a different view | 4:42:38 | 4:42:41 | |
to yours, as does our DUP First Minister and Economy Minister. | 4:42:41 | 4:42:45 | |
And they all believe that Northern Ireland | 4:42:45 | 4:42:48 | |
and the UK would be better off outside the European Union. | 4:42:48 | 4:42:51 | |
They say, we'd be perfectly capable of trading internationally, | 4:42:51 | 4:42:54 | |
as we currently do, and the UK Government would replace | 4:42:54 | 4:42:58 | |
EU subsidies from the revenues it's no longer sending off to Brussels. | 4:42:58 | 4:43:02 | |
They, as you expressed, | 4:43:02 | 4:43:03 | |
are a tiny minority in global political and economic circles. | 4:43:03 | 4:43:11 | |
Everybody, from the President of the United States | 4:43:11 | 4:43:14 | |
to the head of the IMF, to prime ministers of Commonwealth countries | 4:43:14 | 4:43:18 | |
like New Zealand, Canada and Australia | 4:43:18 | 4:43:22 | |
think that this would be a bad thing for Britain, a bad thing for | 4:43:22 | 4:43:26 | |
Europe, and it will certainly be a bad thing for Northern Ireland. | 4:43:26 | 4:43:30 | |
The Leave campaigners say that is a cosy international cabal | 4:43:30 | 4:43:34 | |
of self-interested individuals and organisations who don't want change | 4:43:34 | 4:43:39 | |
because change would damage their future prospects, | 4:43:39 | 4:43:43 | |
even though it might be better for the average man | 4:43:43 | 4:43:45 | |
and woman on the street. | 4:43:45 | 4:43:47 | |
That, to my mind, is so ludicrous that it barely requires a response. | 4:43:47 | 4:43:52 | |
Is this true of the Governor of the Bank of England? | 4:43:52 | 4:43:54 | |
Is it true of the Treasury? | 4:43:54 | 4:43:56 | |
Is it true of the head of the IMF? | 4:43:56 | 4:43:59 | |
Is it true of the head of the WTO? | 4:43:59 | 4:44:01 | |
It's ludicrous to describe them as a "cabal" who, in some way, | 4:44:01 | 4:44:06 | |
are trying to protect their own interests. | 4:44:06 | 4:44:08 | |
You are a former Director-General of the World Trade Organization | 4:44:08 | 4:44:11 | |
and a former Chairman of BP, the UK's largest company. | 4:44:11 | 4:44:15 | |
What do you think the impact would be on Northern Ireland | 4:44:15 | 4:44:19 | |
trying to attempt foreign direct investment | 4:44:19 | 4:44:22 | |
if the vote on June 23rd is to leave? | 4:44:22 | 4:44:25 | |
I think it would definitely have the effect | 4:44:25 | 4:44:30 | |
of causing investors to go | 4:44:30 | 4:44:34 | |
to another place within the European Union because those who invest in | 4:44:34 | 4:44:40 | |
Ireland, north or south, are doing so because it provides them with a | 4:44:40 | 4:44:46 | |
manufacturing base to sell to the European Union, | 4:44:46 | 4:44:50 | |
and the uncertainty, | 4:44:50 | 4:44:52 | |
the borders that will be created by Britain leaving, | 4:44:52 | 4:44:57 | |
the inevitable period of prolonged negotiation | 4:44:57 | 4:45:01 | |
will lead to a drying up of investment. | 4:45:01 | 4:45:06 | |
You know that Leave campaigners say that the European Union market | 4:45:06 | 4:45:11 | |
is a shrinking market, that Britain, | 4:45:11 | 4:45:13 | |
the UK and Northern Ireland needs to look to other markets globally | 4:45:13 | 4:45:17 | |
which are growing, and that is where it should be trading. | 4:45:17 | 4:45:20 | |
The first thing that will happen will be that there will be | 4:45:20 | 4:45:24 | |
a recognition that what you describe as a decline in economic area | 4:45:24 | 4:45:29 | |
is an area of 500 million people. | 4:45:29 | 4:45:32 | |
It is the wealthiest area, 29% of global GDP. | 4:45:32 | 4:45:36 | |
It is enormously important for British exports today. | 4:45:36 | 4:45:42 | |
It cannot be supplanted by the tiny fraction of those exports | 4:45:42 | 4:45:47 | |
that today go to places like India and China. | 4:45:47 | 4:45:50 | |
The second point is that if Britain leaves, | 4:45:50 | 4:45:54 | |
borders will be created with the rest of Europe. | 4:45:54 | 4:45:57 | |
Goods will have to be checked. | 4:45:57 | 4:45:59 | |
Borders will have to be applied, in terms of tariffs | 4:45:59 | 4:46:03 | |
and nontariff barriers to goods that at the moment can freely pass | 4:46:03 | 4:46:09 | |
across borders throughout Europe. | 4:46:09 | 4:46:12 | |
This would be an act of wanton destruction of economic viability | 4:46:12 | 4:46:19 | |
for Britain and Northern Ireland, in particular, to leave this market | 4:46:19 | 4:46:24 | |
and create years of uncertainty and negotiation about the future. | 4:46:24 | 4:46:30 | |
And what do you think directly the implications would be | 4:46:30 | 4:46:33 | |
of a vote to leave on | 4:46:33 | 4:46:35 | |
the relationship between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland, | 4:46:35 | 4:46:38 | |
and specifically between Northern Ireland and the Republic? | 4:46:38 | 4:46:41 | |
The border between the Republic and Northern Ireland will become | 4:46:41 | 4:46:47 | |
a border of the European Union, with somebody outside the European Union. | 4:46:47 | 4:46:52 | |
This will create a border control requirement of a kind | 4:46:54 | 4:47:00 | |
that we had thought banished to history. | 4:47:00 | 4:47:03 | |
If, in some perverted way, | 4:47:04 | 4:47:07 | |
there is an ideological desire to recreate that border, | 4:47:07 | 4:47:11 | |
it is an act that would be incredibly foolish | 4:47:11 | 4:47:15 | |
and very damaging. | 4:47:15 | 4:47:17 | |
Enda Kenny voiced his concerns at the possibility of a Leave vote. | 4:47:17 | 4:47:22 | |
The First Minister Arlene Foster suggested | 4:47:22 | 4:47:24 | |
diplomatically that he should mind his own business. | 4:47:24 | 4:47:28 | |
Do you think you should be still involved in the debate? | 4:47:28 | 4:47:31 | |
Well, if that suggestion that he should mind his own business | 4:47:31 | 4:47:37 | |
was meant seriously, it shows the naivete | 4:47:37 | 4:47:40 | |
that is utterly surprising of a serious politician. | 4:47:40 | 4:47:44 | |
Of course it is his interest, as it's everybody's interest on the | 4:47:44 | 4:47:48 | |
island of Ireland and more generally that this debate should be | 4:47:48 | 4:47:53 | |
conducted in a way that recognises the damage done to both economies, | 4:47:53 | 4:47:59 | |
north and south, by Brexit. | 4:47:59 | 4:48:02 | |
It would be ludicrous for him not to express his concern, | 4:48:02 | 4:48:07 | |
because it is entirely legitimate. | 4:48:07 | 4:48:10 | |
Peter Sutherland pulling no punches in terms of how | 4:48:10 | 4:48:13 | |
he sees the future for the UK outside the European Union. | 4:48:13 | 4:48:16 | |
Listening to that in London is the Secretary of State, | 4:48:16 | 4:48:19 | |
Theresa Villiers, | 4:48:19 | 4:48:21 | |
who is campaigning, of course, to leave the EU. | 4:48:21 | 4:48:23 | |
Secretary of State, thanks very much indeed for joining us today. | 4:48:23 | 4:48:26 | |
How do you respond to Mr Sutherland's view there that | 4:48:26 | 4:48:29 | |
it's, to quote him, | 4:48:29 | 4:48:30 | |
"Incredible that any political force in Northern Ireland could | 4:48:30 | 4:48:34 | |
"conceivably consider that a vote to leave could be a good | 4:48:34 | 4:48:37 | |
"thing for Northern Ireland"? | 4:48:37 | 4:48:39 | |
Well, I think a vote to leave would be great for Northern Ireland | 4:48:39 | 4:48:42 | |
because it would enable us in this country to control, | 4:48:42 | 4:48:45 | |
take back democratic control over making our own laws. | 4:48:45 | 4:48:48 | |
As you've pointed out in your interview, it enables us | 4:48:48 | 4:48:52 | |
to take back control over our own trade policies | 4:48:52 | 4:48:55 | |
so that we can make deals not just with the European Union to | 4:48:55 | 4:48:58 | |
enable business to go on with the rest of the EU, | 4:48:58 | 4:49:01 | |
but also with countries around the world where they have huge markets. | 4:49:01 | 4:49:05 | |
Those could open up fantastic opportunities | 4:49:05 | 4:49:08 | |
for Northern Ireland and create jobs and opportunities for young people. | 4:49:08 | 4:49:12 | |
Well, the Prime Minister doesn't agree. | 4:49:12 | 4:49:13 | |
He was talking to Andrew Marr this morning. | 4:49:13 | 4:49:15 | |
He said, "If we vote to leave, we are voting | 4:49:15 | 4:49:17 | |
"for a self-inflicted recession. | 4:49:17 | 4:49:19 | |
"They'll never give us a better deal on the outside of the EU | 4:49:19 | 4:49:22 | |
"than they will on the inside." | 4:49:22 | 4:49:24 | |
So the Prime Minister has got it wrong, has he? | 4:49:24 | 4:49:26 | |
Well, I feel deeply uncomfortable | 4:49:26 | 4:49:28 | |
being on the other side of this debate from the Prime Minister, | 4:49:28 | 4:49:30 | |
but the fact is that the EU sells a lot more to us than we do to them. | 4:49:30 | 4:49:35 | |
So it's in their interest to do a free-trade deal with us, | 4:49:35 | 4:49:39 | |
as they have with countries everywhere | 4:49:39 | 4:49:41 | |
between Iceland and the Russian border. | 4:49:41 | 4:49:43 | |
It's just not credible to say that we'd be excluded | 4:49:43 | 4:49:46 | |
from that kind of free trade deal | 4:49:46 | 4:49:47 | |
that others with far less important markets for the EU | 4:49:47 | 4:49:51 | |
have managed to agree with them. | 4:49:51 | 4:49:53 | |
It would take a very long time to sort those details out, though, | 4:49:53 | 4:49:56 | |
that is the point made by the Prime Minister | 4:49:56 | 4:49:57 | |
and also by Peter Sutherland, there - | 4:49:57 | 4:49:59 | |
that we would have years of not knowing precisely what the terms | 4:49:59 | 4:50:03 | |
of any future deal would be | 4:50:03 | 4:50:05 | |
and, in the meantime, foreign direct investment would go elsewhere, | 4:50:05 | 4:50:08 | |
and that would be a catastrophe, | 4:50:08 | 4:50:10 | |
"an act of wanton destruction", he said, | 4:50:10 | 4:50:12 | |
for the Northern Ireland economy. | 4:50:12 | 4:50:13 | |
But, you know, people like Peter Sutherland | 4:50:13 | 4:50:15 | |
and other, sort of, so-called experts | 4:50:15 | 4:50:17 | |
said that inward investment was suddenly going to dry up | 4:50:17 | 4:50:21 | |
if we didn't join the euro, | 4:50:21 | 4:50:22 | |
and here we are, more than a decade after the euro's creation, | 4:50:22 | 4:50:26 | |
and we are doing far better whilst retaining our own currency. | 4:50:26 | 4:50:29 | |
There is no reason why we can't press ahead pretty rapidly | 4:50:29 | 4:50:32 | |
with trade deals with the rest of the world, | 4:50:32 | 4:50:35 | |
and all of the projections, all of the gloomy reports | 4:50:35 | 4:50:40 | |
that have been published, | 4:50:40 | 4:50:41 | |
even with their pessimistic assumptions, | 4:50:41 | 4:50:43 | |
they all say that in the medium to long term, | 4:50:43 | 4:50:46 | |
we are certainly continuing to grow. | 4:50:46 | 4:50:48 | |
If Europe was so great for jobs, | 4:50:48 | 4:50:52 | |
why have they got massive levels of youth unemployment | 4:50:52 | 4:50:55 | |
in places like Greece and Spain? | 4:50:55 | 4:50:57 | |
It is the EU that is failing economically, not us. | 4:50:57 | 4:51:00 | |
The difficulty for you, of course, is that you are, | 4:51:00 | 4:51:03 | |
as Peter Sutherland says, "in a tiny minority | 4:51:03 | 4:51:06 | |
"in global, political and economic circles." | 4:51:06 | 4:51:09 | |
You referred to Peter Sutherland as a so-called expert. | 4:51:09 | 4:51:11 | |
He is much more of a so-called expert | 4:51:11 | 4:51:13 | |
than Theresa Villiers is a so-called expert. | 4:51:13 | 4:51:16 | |
I mean, he listed the individuals and organisations | 4:51:16 | 4:51:18 | |
who believe that Brexit would be a very bad idea. | 4:51:18 | 4:51:21 | |
Surely on balance, people, when they look at it, | 4:51:21 | 4:51:24 | |
are likely to say, "Well, we'll believe the IMF | 4:51:24 | 4:51:26 | |
"and the WTO, the Governor of the Bank of England | 4:51:26 | 4:51:28 | |
"and the Treasurer and various prime ministers and presidents, | 4:51:28 | 4:51:31 | |
"rather than Michael Gove and Boris Johnson | 4:51:31 | 4:51:33 | |
"and Theresa Villiers", with respect. | 4:51:33 | 4:51:35 | |
Well, every individual in this country | 4:51:35 | 4:51:37 | |
will have the choice before him, | 4:51:37 | 4:51:40 | |
and they can look at the facts. | 4:51:40 | 4:51:42 | |
They can look at the fact | 4:51:42 | 4:51:43 | |
that we don't control our immigration policy in this country. | 4:51:43 | 4:51:46 | |
They can look at the fact that we send several billions of pounds | 4:51:46 | 4:51:50 | |
to Europe every year. | 4:51:50 | 4:51:51 | |
They can look at the fact that the Eurozone has an in-built majority | 4:51:51 | 4:51:55 | |
that can out-vote us again and again and again. | 4:51:55 | 4:51:58 | |
So, effectively, we are no longer an independent country. | 4:51:58 | 4:52:00 | |
I think it's time we took back control over making our laws | 4:52:00 | 4:52:04 | |
so we become an independent self-governing democracy again. | 4:52:04 | 4:52:07 | |
So Peter Sutherland made it very clear that if that happens, | 4:52:07 | 4:52:09 | |
there will be major implications for border control - | 4:52:09 | 4:52:13 | |
movement of people and goods | 4:52:13 | 4:52:15 | |
between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, | 4:52:15 | 4:52:17 | |
the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom. | 4:52:17 | 4:52:20 | |
Now, the North Down MP, Lady Hermon, challenged you on Friday | 4:52:20 | 4:52:23 | |
to explain precisely how would the border work | 4:52:23 | 4:52:26 | |
between the Republic and Northern Ireland | 4:52:26 | 4:52:28 | |
if a vote for Brexit happens. | 4:52:28 | 4:52:30 | |
How would it work? Spell it out for us. | 4:52:30 | 4:52:32 | |
It would work the way it does today. | 4:52:32 | 4:52:34 | |
We've had a Common Travel Area between the UK and Ireland | 4:52:34 | 4:52:37 | |
for nearly 100 years. | 4:52:37 | 4:52:39 | |
But it would be entirely different, with respect, in future, | 4:52:39 | 4:52:41 | |
because you would have one country in the EU, | 4:52:41 | 4:52:44 | |
the Republic of Ireland in that scenario, | 4:52:44 | 4:52:46 | |
and the rest of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, | 4:52:46 | 4:52:49 | |
outside the European Union, | 4:52:49 | 4:52:51 | |
so you wouldn't have two equal parties, | 4:52:51 | 4:52:53 | |
two equal countries in future. | 4:52:53 | 4:52:55 | |
The scenario would be completely different. | 4:52:55 | 4:52:57 | |
The Common Travel Area already includes | 4:52:57 | 4:52:59 | |
places like Guernsey and the Jersey, which are not members of the EU. | 4:52:59 | 4:53:02 | |
-Which are tiny. -It existed before we joined the EU | 4:53:02 | 4:53:06 | |
and it will certainly exist after we leave. | 4:53:06 | 4:53:08 | |
After all, it survived a civil war, a world war | 4:53:08 | 4:53:10 | |
and 30 years of the Troubles. | 4:53:10 | 4:53:12 | |
It is in the interest of the UK and Ireland that it continues. | 4:53:12 | 4:53:15 | |
The Irish Ambassador to London has on his website | 4:53:15 | 4:53:19 | |
that the Common Travel Area will be maintained | 4:53:19 | 4:53:21 | |
in the event of a Brexit vote. | 4:53:21 | 4:53:23 | |
It's going to continue as it is today. | 4:53:23 | 4:53:26 | |
But those negotiations for the future shape of that relationship | 4:53:26 | 4:53:29 | |
would be conducted, not between | 4:53:29 | 4:53:32 | |
the Republic of Ireland and the UK governments, | 4:53:32 | 4:53:35 | |
but they'd be between the UK government and the European Union. | 4:53:35 | 4:53:38 | |
It wouldn't be a bilateral discussion any more. | 4:53:38 | 4:53:40 | |
So you couldn't be sure precisely what the powers that be | 4:53:40 | 4:53:42 | |
in Brussels and Strasbourg would be prepared to accept. | 4:53:42 | 4:53:45 | |
The point is, it wouldn't be up to Enda Kenny. | 4:53:45 | 4:53:47 | |
But it's clearly in the interest of both the UK and Ireland | 4:53:47 | 4:53:50 | |
that we maintain the Common Travel Area. | 4:53:50 | 4:53:53 | |
So you are saying that the EU would seek to punish Ireland | 4:53:53 | 4:53:55 | |
for a decision that the United Kingdom has made. | 4:53:55 | 4:53:57 | |
But that is what David Cameron said this morning, | 4:53:57 | 4:54:00 | |
whenever he said, "You'll never get a deal on the outside | 4:54:00 | 4:54:03 | |
"that's as good as a deal on the inside." | 4:54:03 | 4:54:05 | |
He seemed to be suggesting | 4:54:05 | 4:54:07 | |
that there would be a degree of punishment, potentially, | 4:54:07 | 4:54:09 | |
if there's a vote to leave. | 4:54:09 | 4:54:11 | |
Well, it's much safer to take back control over making our laws, | 4:54:11 | 4:54:14 | |
so we avoid that kind of EU punishment. | 4:54:14 | 4:54:16 | |
There is much more scope for the EU to punish us | 4:54:16 | 4:54:19 | |
if we vote to stay in. | 4:54:19 | 4:54:20 | |
They can out-vote us on everything they choose to. | 4:54:20 | 4:54:24 | |
The reality is it's a scare story around the border. | 4:54:24 | 4:54:27 | |
It's perfectly possible to manage an open border | 4:54:27 | 4:54:29 | |
with the Republic of Ireland. | 4:54:29 | 4:54:31 | |
We had one before we joined the EU, | 4:54:31 | 4:54:33 | |
there is no reason why we can't continue with one after we leave. | 4:54:33 | 4:54:37 | |
And you have no concern about immigrants? | 4:54:37 | 4:54:40 | |
You talk about securing the borders, | 4:54:40 | 4:54:42 | |
various members of the DUP in conversations I've had with them | 4:54:42 | 4:54:44 | |
and other political discussions that they've taken part in | 4:54:44 | 4:54:47 | |
have talked about needing to make sure that we have secure borders, | 4:54:47 | 4:54:52 | |
that we deal with the issue of the international terrorist threat. | 4:54:52 | 4:54:55 | |
If there is no hard border after Brexit | 4:54:55 | 4:54:59 | |
between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, | 4:54:59 | 4:55:01 | |
this would be a very soft back door for undesirables | 4:55:01 | 4:55:05 | |
to come into the United Kingdom. | 4:55:05 | 4:55:07 | |
That's the logic of that situation. You just wouldn't face up to that? | 4:55:07 | 4:55:10 | |
You wouldn't deal with it? You wouldn't need extra checks? | 4:55:10 | 4:55:13 | |
I think there are already risks that are associated | 4:55:13 | 4:55:16 | |
with our open-land border, and they are managed effectively today | 4:55:16 | 4:55:19 | |
through bilateral cooperation between authorities | 4:55:19 | 4:55:21 | |
in the UK and Ireland. | 4:55:21 | 4:55:23 | |
The magnitude of those risks wouldn't increase significantly. | 4:55:23 | 4:55:27 | |
The reality is that if... The idea of thousands | 4:55:27 | 4:55:31 | |
of non-Irish EU citizens suddenly flooding across the border | 4:55:31 | 4:55:35 | |
in the event of a Brexit vote and a change in the rules on free movement | 4:55:35 | 4:55:39 | |
is far-fetched. | 4:55:39 | 4:55:40 | |
But if there was, if people did seek to cross the border | 4:55:40 | 4:55:44 | |
without the appropriate permission to enter, | 4:55:44 | 4:55:47 | |
there are ways in which we can control those matters, | 4:55:47 | 4:55:51 | |
which don't involve physical border checks, | 4:55:51 | 4:55:53 | |
because someone coming across the border wouldn't be able to work, | 4:55:53 | 4:55:56 | |
they wouldn't be able to claim benefits, | 4:55:56 | 4:55:58 | |
they wouldn't be able to rent property, | 4:55:58 | 4:56:00 | |
they wouldn't be able to open a bank account, | 4:56:00 | 4:56:02 | |
and, in extreme cases, they could be deported. | 4:56:02 | 4:56:05 | |
Those are the ways in which we will control the risks | 4:56:05 | 4:56:08 | |
associated with an open-land border, | 4:56:08 | 4:56:10 | |
rather than to erect the physical checks | 4:56:10 | 4:56:13 | |
that the scare stories would suggest. | 4:56:13 | 4:56:15 | |
OK. I just want to move on to one final subject before we let you go, | 4:56:15 | 4:56:19 | |
that's Loughinisland. | 4:56:19 | 4:56:21 | |
The SDLP's South Down MP, Margaret Ritchie, | 4:56:21 | 4:56:23 | |
has said, "You must state clearly if you accept | 4:56:23 | 4:56:26 | |
"the findings of the Loughinisland Report, | 4:56:26 | 4:56:28 | |
"published last week, in its entirety. | 4:56:28 | 4:56:30 | |
"If you do not, then you must resign as Secretary of State." | 4:56:30 | 4:56:34 | |
I just want to be very clear - of course I accept the report. | 4:56:34 | 4:56:38 | |
I support the work of the Police Ombudsman, | 4:56:38 | 4:56:41 | |
and I think it's important that further investigations | 4:56:41 | 4:56:44 | |
take place as a result of the conclusions that he's reached. | 4:56:44 | 4:56:48 | |
So you accept fully that there was collusion | 4:56:48 | 4:56:52 | |
in the Loughinisland murders, | 4:56:52 | 4:56:54 | |
you are in full agreement, are you, with the Chief Constable | 4:56:54 | 4:56:57 | |
when he made that point? | 4:56:57 | 4:56:58 | |
There's no division between your worldview? | 4:56:58 | 4:57:00 | |
Because you have seemed to suggest in the past | 4:57:00 | 4:57:02 | |
that there were pernicious and distorting interpretations, | 4:57:02 | 4:57:07 | |
in terms of collusion. You're clarifying that you don't think that | 4:57:07 | 4:57:10 | |
in the case of Loughinisland | 4:57:10 | 4:57:12 | |
and you are in agreement with George Hamilton? | 4:57:12 | 4:57:14 | |
Well, I accept the statement made both by the Chief Constable | 4:57:14 | 4:57:18 | |
and the report. | 4:57:18 | 4:57:20 | |
It is, though, consistent with the speech I made in February, | 4:57:20 | 4:57:24 | |
that whilst, of course, there are some truly shocking instances | 4:57:24 | 4:57:28 | |
of wrongdoing by members of the security forces during the Troubles, | 4:57:28 | 4:57:32 | |
that's deeply regrettable, | 4:57:32 | 4:57:33 | |
and where it's happened, they need to be held to account, | 4:57:33 | 4:57:36 | |
and obviously there was serious wrongdoing in this case. | 4:57:36 | 4:57:39 | |
But I think it is important also to emphasise | 4:57:39 | 4:57:42 | |
that the vast majority of members of the police and armed services | 4:57:42 | 4:57:46 | |
doing their duty during the Troubles | 4:57:46 | 4:57:48 | |
did so with professionalism and entirely within the law. | 4:57:48 | 4:57:52 | |
OK, all right. We will leave it there, Secretary of State. | 4:57:52 | 4:57:54 | |
Thanks very much indeed for joining us from London this morning. | 4:57:54 | 4:57:57 | |
Let's hear what my guests of the day, | 4:57:57 | 4:57:59 | |
Felicity Huston and Chris Donnelly, make of all of that. | 4:57:59 | 4:58:02 | |
We'll come on to Loughinisland in a moment or two. | 4:58:02 | 4:58:04 | |
Let's talk about the EU referendum first of all. | 4:58:04 | 4:58:08 | |
Felicity, what did you make of the Secretary of State's response | 4:58:08 | 4:58:12 | |
to Peter Sutherland? | 4:58:12 | 4:58:14 | |
Peter Sutherland is not a man to be underestimated. | 4:58:14 | 4:58:18 | |
He has got a pretty significant CV. | 4:58:18 | 4:58:20 | |
You weren't persuaded by anything he had to say, were you? | 4:58:20 | 4:58:23 | |
Peter Sutherland is the man who chaired Goldman Sachs International, | 4:58:23 | 4:58:26 | |
"The great vampire squid on the face of humanity", | 4:58:26 | 4:58:29 | |
as Rolling Stone described Goldman Sachs. | 4:58:29 | 4:58:31 | |
He was also sitting on the board of RBS | 4:58:31 | 4:58:33 | |
when Fred Goodwin was running mad, and nearly bankrupt the country. | 4:58:33 | 4:58:36 | |
I don't agree with him. | 4:58:36 | 4:58:37 | |
He has a very specific worldview, doesn't he? | 4:58:37 | 4:58:40 | |
He thinks that globalisation is it, we must go for it, | 4:58:40 | 4:58:43 | |
corporatism is it, big companies, that's the way it should be. | 4:58:43 | 4:58:47 | |
That's what he's done all his life. | 4:58:47 | 4:58:49 | |
Of course he sees it like that. | 4:58:49 | 4:58:51 | |
He doesn't look at democratic deficits and things like that. | 4:58:51 | 4:58:54 | |
That's not his view. | 4:58:54 | 4:58:55 | |
Chris, which of the two persuaded you? | 4:58:55 | 4:58:57 | |
Well, I would go more with what Peter Sutherland was saying. | 4:58:57 | 4:59:00 | |
Up to this point, looking from a North of Ireland perspective, | 4:59:00 | 4:59:03 | |
this has been a very British discussion, for obvious reasons. | 4:59:03 | 4:59:06 | |
The fact that Peter Sutherland is now speaking in such strident terms, | 4:59:06 | 4:59:09 | |
the fact that Enda Kenny has become increasingly involved, | 4:59:09 | 4:59:12 | |
I think he's canvassing in Britain this week, | 4:59:12 | 4:59:14 | |
shows that from the Irish State's perspective, | 4:59:14 | 4:59:17 | |
the levels of anxiety on the Remain side are getting very high | 4:59:17 | 4:59:21 | |
and they have to speak almost in a selfish, strategic sense | 4:59:21 | 4:59:24 | |
in terms of the interests, | 4:59:24 | 4:59:25 | |
what they see as interests of the Irish State. | 4:59:25 | 4:59:27 | |
Very clearly, they see that with the Remain side winning. | 4:59:27 | 4:59:31 | |
OK, very briefly, what do you see the border scenario looking like | 4:59:31 | 4:59:35 | |
in the event of a Brexit vote on June 23rd, | 4:59:35 | 4:59:38 | |
which is what you want to see? | 4:59:38 | 4:59:39 | |
I do, yes, that's right. | 4:59:39 | 4:59:40 | |
I think we should leave for all sorts of reasons. | 4:59:40 | 4:59:43 | |
I think... I mean, I'm not an expert | 4:59:43 | 4:59:44 | |
on immigration procedures and policies. | 4:59:44 | 4:59:47 | |
I think it will be a bit like travelling to other countries. | 4:59:47 | 4:59:50 | |
When you go to Switzerland, from other parts of the EU, | 4:59:50 | 4:59:52 | |
you don't go through massive queues and border controls and things. | 4:59:52 | 4:59:56 | |
With modern technology, | 4:59:56 | 4:59:58 | |
that automatic...thing they have | 4:59:58 | 5:00:03 | |
for your car registration numbers, readings like that, | 5:00:03 | 5:00:06 | |
that is the sort of stuff we'll use for checking goods | 5:00:06 | 5:00:08 | |
and so on going through. | 5:00:08 | 5:00:10 | |
I think bringing the border back physically, | 5:00:10 | 5:00:12 | |
in a visible sense, is a very psychological move, | 5:00:12 | 5:00:15 | |
and I think that this discussion is something that's going to | 5:00:15 | 5:00:17 | |
almost incentivise nationalists in the North to turn out. | 5:00:17 | 5:00:20 | |
OK, all right. Let's just pause for a moment | 5:00:20 | 5:00:22 | |
and take a look back at the political week gone | 5:00:22 | 5:00:25 | |
past in 60 seconds, with Gareth Gordon. | 5:00:25 | 5:00:27 | |
An independent panel made its pitch | 5:00:32 | 5:00:35 | |
on disbanding paramilitary groups. | 5:00:35 | 5:00:37 | |
We are an executive absolutely united | 5:00:37 | 5:00:39 | |
in facing down the criminal gangs | 5:00:39 | 5:00:41 | |
and paramilitary groups within our society | 5:00:41 | 5:00:44 | |
who are determined to plunge us back to the past. | 5:00:44 | 5:00:46 | |
The Police Ombudsman found there was collusion | 5:00:46 | 5:00:50 | |
between some RUC officers and the UVF gang | 5:00:50 | 5:00:53 | |
behind the Loughinisland massacre. | 5:00:53 | 5:00:55 | |
Two former prime ministers arrived in Northern Ireland | 5:00:55 | 5:00:58 | |
predicting Brexit could spell trouble for the peace process. | 5:00:58 | 5:01:02 | |
It would throw all the pieces of the constitutional jigsaw | 5:01:02 | 5:01:05 | |
up into the air again. | 5:01:05 | 5:01:07 | |
But those in the Leave campaign were outraged. | 5:01:07 | 5:01:09 | |
Two former prime ministers of the United Kingdom arrived | 5:01:09 | 5:01:12 | |
and they made an outrageous and disgraceful assertion. | 5:01:12 | 5:01:16 | |
Though at Stormont, the focus was already shifting | 5:01:16 | 5:01:19 | |
to the other big European story. | 5:01:19 | 5:01:21 | |
Robbie Keane or Kyle Lafferty? | 5:01:21 | 5:01:24 | |
You're asking a Fermanagh person, Robbie Keane or Kyle Lafferty? | 5:01:24 | 5:01:27 | |
Kyle Lafferty. | 5:01:27 | 5:01:29 | |
What about Robbie Keane AND Kyle Lafferty? | 5:01:29 | 5:01:31 | |
CHUCKLING | 5:01:31 | 5:01:32 | |
Gareth Gordon ending his report with a bit of sport | 5:01:38 | 5:01:40 | |
at the Executive Office Committee. | 5:01:40 | 5:01:43 | |
Just a final word from Felicity and Chris. | 5:01:43 | 5:01:45 | |
Chris, just to pick up on that conversation | 5:01:45 | 5:01:47 | |
with the Secretary of State about Loughinisland, | 5:01:47 | 5:01:49 | |
what do you make about where we are? | 5:01:49 | 5:01:50 | |
Do you think she clarified her position for us today? | 5:01:50 | 5:01:53 | |
Yes, I think she did. I think that would have been important | 5:01:53 | 5:01:55 | |
from her perspective because of what Margaret Ritchie had said. | 5:01:55 | 5:01:58 | |
But all these places involved in the past are important on two levels. | 5:01:58 | 5:02:01 | |
One for the families and their personal searches | 5:02:01 | 5:02:03 | |
for truth and justice, but secondly for the rest of us | 5:02:03 | 5:02:05 | |
in terms of society. The past remains an uncomfortable place. | 5:02:05 | 5:02:08 | |
It's contested terrain. | 5:02:08 | 5:02:09 | |
Issues like collusion feed directly into competing narratives | 5:02:09 | 5:02:13 | |
with regard to the past and present. | 5:02:13 | 5:02:14 | |
That's a conversation that is just going to be continuing | 5:02:14 | 5:02:18 | |
-in this society going forward. -Felicity? | 5:02:18 | 5:02:20 | |
I think Ben Lowry from the News Letter yesterday | 5:02:20 | 5:02:22 | |
made a very interesting contribution to this discussion | 5:02:22 | 5:02:25 | |
on what you were raising with Theresa about collusion | 5:02:25 | 5:02:27 | |
and the meaning of it and this sort of thing. | 5:02:27 | 5:02:29 | |
It's an article worth looking at. | 5:02:29 | 5:02:31 | |
He's really obviously thought quite hard | 5:02:31 | 5:02:33 | |
about how language in Northern Ireland | 5:02:33 | 5:02:34 | |
has always been an issue. | 5:02:34 | 5:02:36 | |
Things are being turned and changed, their meaning, | 5:02:36 | 5:02:38 | |
and the impact it's having on us. | 5:02:38 | 5:02:40 | |
OK. Language has always been contested, that's for sure. | 5:02:40 | 5:02:43 | |
We'll leave it there. Thank you, both, very much indeed. | 5:02:43 | 5:02:45 | |
That's it from Sunday Politics for this week. | 5:02:45 | 5:02:47 | |
Join me for Stormont Today on BBC Two at 11.15 tomorrow night. | 5:02:47 | 5:02:50 | |
Until then, from all of us, bye-bye. | 5:02:50 | 5:02:52 |