05/06/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest on the EU referendum campaigns. Andrew is joined by John Prescott and Conservative MP David Davis.

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Just over a fortnight to go, and the referendum debate is getting


serious, with Boris Johnson and John Major the latest senior


We'll be discussing all the week's big developments,


We've hit the road with both campaigns, and we've got two big


I'll be joined by Labour's John Prescott,


And, if you haven't decided how to vote yet,


One MP who's only now finally reached a decision will reveal live


And coming up here - As the Assembly prepares


for its first full week of business, I'll be talking to Mike Nesbitt


about opposition and his relationship with his SDLP


And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times


more likely to trust the word of a random stranger


And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times


I'm joined by a political panel with the full authority


It's Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott, and Janan Ganesh.


We'll try and find some random strangers to replace


them next week, and see if you notice the difference!


So, in case you weren't sure just how high the stakes were in this


referendum campaign, you only have to look at this


morning's papers, and listen to former Prime Minister John Major


taking aim at his fellow Tories in the Leave campaign.


The current Prime Minister David Cameron tried to get his party


to avoid so-called blue-on-blue attacks, in the hope of keeping


It seems like John Major didn't get the message,


as he accused the Leave campaign of squalid deceit,


and called Boris Johnson a court jester.


Here he is, talking to Andrew Marr earlier.


This is going to affect people, their livelihoods, their future,


for a very long time to come, and if they are given honest,


straightforward facts and they decide to leave,


then that is the decision the British people take.


But if they decide to leave on the basis of inaccurate


information, inaccurate information known to be inaccurate,


Now, I may be wrong, but that is how I see their campaign.


And this is so important, for once, I'm not prepared to give the benefit


of the doubt to other people, I'm going to say


And I think this is a deceitful campaign, and in terms


of what they are saying about immigration, a really


They are misleading people to an extraordinary extent.


So, that was former Prime Minister John Major, but,


when Boris Johnson took to the same sofa, he studiously declined


to return fire when asked if those words were part of an attempt


by the Remain campaign to "take him out".


Whether it is or not, this morning I think that...


I'm rather with John McDonnell this morning...


He says that there's too much of this sort of blue-on-blue action,


and what he wants to hear is the arguments,


Boris failing to take the bait. As I said, John major hadn't got the


memo from down the street, that was a joke.


The fact was John Major was sent into the show by Downing Street to


beat up on Boris. Is that an example, a testament to have rattled


they are? My own evidence is they are very


rattled, they got extremely twitchy about something I tweeted on Friday


night where I suggested a prominent Remain person was appearing on sky.


This shows the level of nerves in Downing Street. The kind of language


being exchanged between senior figures in the party raises very


serious questions about how the party comes together.


We had Michael Gove this morning saying he thinks the party can come


together on June the 24th. Of course they can, but I doubt it will be on


June the 24th. It is quite remarkable for a


Conservative Downing Street to get a former Conservative prime ministers


to come onto the BBC, the main Sunday morning news show, Andrew


Maher, and to beat up on the man who is currently favourite to be the


Tory leader. That is almost unprecedented.


John Major put his credibility on the line with phrases like squalid,


depressing. He was going for Boris Johnson.


There is a clear, strategic imperative behind what John Major


was saying, he is trying to reduce Boris Johnson's credibility,


currently the most popular and trusted figure in the EU debate.


They are worried and trying to harm that.


So, they are going for the man. The Big Questions this morning for


Downing Street, and it is right to point fingers at Downing Street for


pushing this kind of intervention, stiffening John Major's spines when


it turned out Boris was going to be on the programme I think he had a


bubble. That is my understanding. The danger


is that Downing Street are encouraging this, to send this


debate into a Tory blue-on-blue battle.


The effect may well be to deter Labour voters.


The people who want Britain to stay inside you need to do two things, to


make sure Tory voters vote for Remain, and turn out the Remain vote


against Labour and SNB voters. The question is whether having all


the headlines dominated by this blue-on-blue fight -- SNP.


It means people shrug and give up. It is more than just blue-on-blue.


From what John Major said this morning, it seems Downing Street is


prepared to trash the Tory brand, their own brand, in desperation to


win on June the 23rd. John Major describing one of the


likely people to be the ex-Tory leader -- next Tory leader as a


court jester. Saying, if you put Michael Gove,


Boris Johnson comic Iain Duncan Smith in charge of the NHS, is like


giving your pet hamster to a buy them. A second Tory poster. How can


you not conclude they are so desperate about June the 23rd they


are prepared to trash their own party's brand.


Short of using the B word when he thought the Microsoft when talking


to Michael Brunson, it was very vociferous.


It is true Boris Johnson did not retaliate in the interview. John


Major and number ten would argue that retaliation was made very


early, over the past few weeks, the Prime Minister's integrity on some


questions had been brought into doubt by people in his own party.


Without defending number ten's instructions to John Major if they


exist, they feel aggrieved because of attacks during the campaign.


Looking at the footage of John Major, I detect sincere emotion on


his part, rather than being a mouthpiece.


I did argue that he didn't mean what he said.


As Sam was saying, he didn't want to come on.


This is such an important development, it tells us about the


remain camped. Now, staying with the EU referendum,


today we're going to try Two well-informed campaigners,


the Conservative MEP Dan Hannan and the Labour MP Emma Reynolds,


will be interrogating each other I'll mostly just be sitting


back to watch. A short while ago in our green room,


they tossed a coin to see Emma is the winner, or loser,


depending on your point of view, so they'll be the first


to be cross-examined. They took a break in campaigning


to make their pitch I'm Daniel Hannan, Conservative


Member of the European Parliament, and I'm inviting you to fire me


on the 23rd of June. First, because leaving


is the modern choice. The European Union


is a relic of the 1950s, when regional blocs


looked like the future, but that world has been overtaken


by technological change. Second, because it's


the cheaper choice. Instead of handing Brussels


?20 billion a year gross, 10 billion net, we'll have our money


to spend on our priorities. We will take back the sublime right


to hire and fire our own lawmakers. In a necessarily uncertain world,


we will have taken back control to mitigate any risks ourselves


instead of passing power to people who may not


have our interests at heart. And fifth, because it's


the confident choice. We are a merchant,


maritime, global nation, the fifth largest economy


on the planet, one of five permanent seat-holders


on the UN Security Council. We have the world's most


widely studied language, before we are able to run our own


affairs in our own interests? Trading and cooperating with friends


and allies on every continent, including Europe,


but living under our own laws. So, here are Dan Hannan


and Emma Reynolds. And, just to explain the rules,


you've just five You can only ask questions,


or only give answers. Nine out of ten economists and a


string of organisations say leaving the EU would damage the economy,


make families worse off, cause a recession, could you name an


independent economic force -- economic forecaster who has said the


opposite? Five former chancellors are


campaigning to leave, plenty of economists, ...


Gerard Lyons has said, although in favour of leaving, if we were to


vote to leave, the two years, it would cause great uncertainty and


depress the economy. He hasn't said that. He said that in


a report. He hasn't. You will have to do


better than that. He is strongly of the view leaving means walking away


from a declining trade bloc and being able to leap up... And the


uncertainty? All these international bodies...


Hang on. The IMF, these are people who shared the outlook,


international bureaucrats, they share the lifestyle, the tax-free


lifestyle, they shared the basic outlook. Through euros, because that


is the kind of circles they live in. The Institute for Fiscal Studies is


widely respected, they have said by leaving we could blow a black hole


of up to ?40 billion in our public finances, meaning less money for


public services. They were feeding in the same basic


data they got from these IMF, OECD organisations.


They are independent. If I didn't think we would be better off as a


whole, I would not be inviting viewers to make me redundant. The


reason I am confident I will have a job in the private sector doing


something more productive than regulating everyone else is we


shouldn't be linked to the world is Oates only collapsing trade bloc.


There are huge opportunity -- the world's. We are the only one that


hasn't grown. Another question, you have described


the NHS as the biggest 60 year mistake, why can the public trust


the Leave campaign when they don't want the NHS to be in public hands?


I said the mistake was having a nationalised system rather than a


pluralist one as they have in almost every other industrialised country.


The referendum is an instruction to the Government to get us out.


It does not mean you are electing the boat Leave campaign, but giving


a mandate to get us out on terms and in a timescale said to our allies


across the control -- the channel but in our interests.


We are really looking at a decision to leave and asking people not to


trust any other politician but the British electorate.


The weight of economic evidence is on the remain camped, you would


admit that at least. Can you name a country that has


access to the single market but does not accept free movement?


The EU side free trade agreements with Colombia...


You said access to the single market, every country in Europe has


access to the single market. There is a free trade area from


non-EU Iceland... Why therefore does Ireland and


Norway faced agricultural tariffs of over 13%?


Ireland and Norway? Icelands and Norway.


Yes, they have wisely chosen to stay out of the Common Agricultural


Policy. Their farmers are strongly in favour of staying out of the CIP.


If we did the same thing, instead of being doubly penalised as a net food


importer with efficient farms, paying more in, getting less out, we


can have a British farming policy tailored to suit our needs.


In Northern Ireland, you suggested the border would remain open between


the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. How can you therefore


guarantee that if you want to stop free movement, that European


migrants would not come through that border? You are leaving the back


door open. Illegal migrants could come through that border today but


do not. They could come through legally. We have an agreement which


includes the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are not in


the, it long predates the EU. The point is it is possible now, don't


take anyone's word for it, we have a common travel area with EU and


non-EU states, no-one in Dublin or Westminster is suggesting that is a


problem. We have only three seconds to go, tough and time in the


interests of fairness! It is the dunnock Emma to be cross-examined,


let's look at her pitch to undecided voters.


We are stronger, safer and better off in Europe.


Families benefit from lower prices, more jobs,


Businesses benefit from a European single market


Workers benefit from employment protection.


We trade more with the EU than any other country.


from companies like Jaguar Land Rover here in the West Midlands.


And by staying in the EU, we will attract even more investment


and create more jobs for the next generation.


In the 21st century, the challenges that our country face


no longer stop at the White Cliffs of Dover.


Cross-border crime and terrorism, climate change -


by working with our European partners,


we can meet these challenges successfully.


predicts that damage will be done to our economy if we leave.


And the Bank of England Governor, Mark Carney,


It would create a black hole in our public finances,


meaning less money for our public services, like schools and the NHS.


for more jobs, prosperity and security.


As before, Dan, you now have five minutes


to put your questions. Off you go.


Thank you. As you know, the EU is not a settled dispensation, it is


undergoing the Euro crisis, the Schengen crisis, migration problems,


and it is evolving - what are the greatest risks of Remain? Well, you


would keep your job! You seem to want to lose your job. I don't think


that there are great risks of as remaining, because we have the best


of both worlds. We are not in the eurozone, we have the pound as our


currency, like eight other member states retain their currency, but we


have unfettered access to the single market, and no other country... What


can you tell us about budget contributions in ten or 15 years'


time? I know what our budget contributions are today, not what is


on the side of your bus. How many migrants might be resettled here?


More came from outside of the EU than inside. Can you tell us how


many bailouts we might be dragged into? Zero. So if we vote to stay


in, even though we had a written guarantee in 2014 that which would


not be dragged into a bailout, you trust them this time? You say that


but you are a MEP. I am asking the questions. I think the ministers go


to the Council of Ministers meetings, 97% of the votes won, we


are not run by Eurocrats. You cannot answer any of the questions about


how it might look if we stay in, so there are risks both ways. Is it


safer to take back control to mitigate risks ourselves, or save a


passing control to people who may not have our interests at heart? I


do not know why you mistrust our European partners to such a great


extent, because the challenges we face in the 21st century, climate


change, cross-border crime, terrorism, those are challenges we


share with our partners. Let me ask another question, in our country we


have an example of a very high-minded, radical tradition that


has been very good at dispersing power from oligarchs to the general


population. As an heiress to the suffragettes and the chartists, do


you feel comfortable backing an elitist, anti-democratic project


where supreme power is wielded by people immune to the ballot box,


where we pay more to wealthy French farmers than poor African farmers,


and where we have inflicted joblessness and misery on tens of


millions of people around the Mediterranean while Eurocrats like


around in private jets? Does that seem comfortable as a person on the


centre-left? I feel comfortable because I feel the EU has been a


force for good in terms of employment protection, in a way a


Conservative governments never has, comfortable because we elect our


MEPs, and we elect a government that sends ministers to Brussels to have


the final say on European regulations, and I feel comfortable


as a British MP that over the vast majority of policy areas, whether


health, housing, education, policing, we have confidence in


those areas. So Lord Rose, the leader of the remainder campaign


says Vote Leave for higher wages, Paddy Ashdown says we will get


cheaper food, don't you think there are benefits to the majority of low


and medium income people from having that boosting household income? On


the contrary. So they are wrong? I think they are wrong, people in my


constituency, low and middle incomes, they will suffer the most


if manufacturing is eliminated, according to the Brexit Economist,


the Bank of England governor has predicted a recession, and it will


be people I reserve present who will be worse after macro, not people


earning high income jobs. -- worse off. What is the strongest argument


for voting Leave? I don't think there is one. None at all? This is


one of the things that puzzles a lot of people trying to make up their


mind. You do not think there are any benefits of staying in the EU. It is


not my job to tell you them, but I can see them! People make an issue


out of being so broad-minded and reasonable, but they struggle to see


the other point of view at all. They cannot put themselves in the shoes


of the people that the EU is not benefiting, which is the vast


majority. There is a lot of scaremongering on your side about


what might happen, because if we stay in, we will pretty much have


the status quo, access to a market where we trade more than with the


rest of the world, 44% of our exports go to the rest of the EU.


Our trade unions represent four million people who think we should


stay. I would rather this on to them than you. Do you think the European


Union is a growing, successful scheme that people would join today


if we were not already a member? Yes no? Yes. We ended there, I thank you


both for that. So, this week both sides of this


referendum have really The big set-piece TV


grillings have begun. Senior Conservatives have been


knocking lumps out of each other. And the Labour machine seems finally


to have creaked into life. We'll be talking about


all of that today. But, first, our Adam's been


on the buses to see where this


campaign is heading. There's livestock,


there's Boris Johnson, and there's a man


with a stuffed animal. Well, I suppose I could have


accidentally bought the cow This was the week the referendum


started to feel a bit more like a general election


campaign, and not just because of


the photo op. Vote Leave unveiled


a spending commitment, cutting the VAT on domestic fuel,


and a whole new immigration system - And here Boris told farmers


that their subsidies would be safe, even if the UK left the EU -


not everyone was convinced. There's no authority, no power,


he's just a person that's walked in here


and said what he's got to say. You could say it, I could


say it, I can promise. First of all,


where are your wellies? Are you getting a bit


of grief from the farmers? No, there's a lot of


support, a lot of support, and a lot of people


coming up to me and saying, "We are with you,


we want to come out." Some people, obviously, need


reassurance about the subsidies, He left - without offering me


a lift, so I caught the train, to Birmingham,


and the Labour in campaign. But this week Jeremy Corbyn


made a big speech after it emerged many Labour supporters didn't know


the party was in favour of the EU. Do you think that was


a great speech from JC? Jeremy's journey, if you like,


which mirrors the journeys that many have made on this,


he was a Eurosceptic in '75, and I think he's more powerful


for that. Our journey took us to a building


site to see investment from abroad that the Remain campaign claim


is linked to our EU membership. Of course, with foreign


money comes foreigners. How are you going to vote?


No, come out. Why's that? Because of all the immigrants


and things like that. Too many of them now


coming into this country. Well, inevitably,


I've ended up in one of these This week, the Remain campaign


got some high visibility backing from foreign leaders -


in Spain, the Netherlands, the former Foreign Secretary


David Miliband. Some people might say


that you live in America now, you are one of these high-profile


foreigners coming over and lecturing us on what to do,


what do you say to that? I'm a British voter,


and I'm able to speak with passion about my own country,


this is my home country, and although it's not where I live


and work at the moment, I still feel that there is


a real obligation to speak not just to the economic issues


and the security issues, but also the foreign-policy


issues, frankly. to ride on Britain Stronger


in Europe's luxury coach, or hop onto Nigel Farage's


double-decker. You wait ages for a referendum


battle bus to come along, So, you heard Alan Johnson there


defending Jeremy Corbyn's latest intervention in the referendum


campaign, despite critics claiming that Labour hasn't exactly been


full-throated in its campaign Well, the former Deputy Prime


Minister and veteran Labour campaigner John Prescott


seems to agree. He says in his newspaper column


today that his party's message


hasn't been getting through. John Prescott, good morning to you.


Good morning. You say in your column that the Conservatives have hijacked


the campaign, why has Labour allowed that to happen? It is a good point,


I suggested in the paper that it seems almost to have been the


strategy, blue on blue destroying the Tory party, hopefully, we will


have to wait and see! We saw that in the broadcasts this morning, but


where is Labour? It seems as if we are just enjoying the fight between


them, but that is not putting our position. Labour maybe in the


European Union, I support being in it, but we're not putting the


arguments, and so when you see on a bus there, for example, on Boris's


bus, ?350 million a week to put into the health service, this is from a


government that reduced from 9% of GDP the average in Europe to 7%, and


when they go on with a Labour politician in this way, Gisela, the


Tories get the publicity, and they are in the background. We are not


putting down the record of the Tories, they cannot do it because


they are in a joint agreement on a bus about Europe. Let me just get


another question in, as a result of everything you say, are you worried


that you are failing to galvanise the Labour vote, do get it out to


vote for Remain on the 23rd? Absolutely! Labour people want to


hear Labour people talking about this government's record, whether


they are four in or out, they carried out a record that is


basically destroying our health service, housing was halved in


billions, and now they say they will bring it. Michael Gove says all


these terrible bankers, why didn't the vote with Labour to stop the


bonuses for them? He didn't, he doesn't, they are hypocritical, we


must show that Labour has strong values, we believe in social


justice. When you have heard Tories talking about being social justice?!


Look Labour, at Labour. Maybe Labour voters are confused, when you look


at Jeremy Corbyn's pro EU speech, he spent as much time attacking the


Tories and EU policies. Good on Jeremy! By Sea said the bad things


predicted by Vote Leave work addicted by those who say we should


remain, that all the scare stories were just myth-making and prophecies


of doom. Is it any surprise that Labour voters are confused? Yes, but


I do not think we should talk too much about what we should do, Jeremy


is not a passionate man, he does not scream and shout like me, does he?!


But to that extent, our people want to see, and this is what has


happened to politics, people speak and do believe what they are saying!


On both sides, Cameron's side, Boris Johnson, they are saying things that


they did not do in government, which Labour oppose, and they are against


social justice. We want a Labour Europe, different to them, not, we


all believe in Europe, let's travel on the same bus! No wonder people


are confused, get a strong Labour voice, and glad Jeremy said what he


said, but point out what these beggars did in government!


What about the confusion, even Damian McBride caught on Twitter


offering policy tips to the Brexit campaign.


Labour voters seem to be confused. I don't say that the Europe they


want is the one I want. I took part in the last referendum. Despite the


Tories not giving us a referendum and taking us in 1975 into the


common market. I do believe, I was against a political Europe. In fact,


I turned down a job with Jim Callaghan to be commissioner. On


that ground, I thought that is where they were heading.


I can't say it has stopped. What we argued then was for a wider Europe


so we didn't move along the federal Europe case. That is still an


argument to be fought for, I feel strongly, Labour does. I'm not sure


the Tories pursued it. Sadiq Khan, tested Jarrell, Harriet


Harman, they have appeared with Tories, including the Prime


Minister. You refused, but last night you were appearing on Russia


Today, a Putin propaganda channel, with Ken Livingstone, he has been


suspended from your party, have you thought this through?


Of course. I don't go in joint party operations, I never have. I didn't


when I fought the Labour in 1975. I am the same. I am not saying they


can't or shouldn't. We are saying the Labour vote is crucial and there


is confusion as to the Labour position.


Standing alongside Tory politicians, the survey has recently shown most


of the speeches that come out of that are Tory spokesmen. 48% Tory,


8% Labour. Why are we confused? Like in Scotland, if you appear alongside


them bring on Europe, you better start telling people what you


disagree about. Jeremy is trying to do that. I


wouldn't do it, it adds to the confusion. If you can't get the


Labour vote out in big numbers, are you worried you could lose this


referendum? Yes. I want every Labour person in


to vote. I fought on the last one thinking we would win on the


referendum, and we lost, mainly it was particularly women, they get


concerned about the long-term, their children, security, I think that is


what defeated as in 1975. Seriously, I think it will go the other way. We


need to be talking about the big powers. It is not Britain on its


own, it is global powers, America, India, China, who will decide the


issue about crime, immigration, security. We will be a little island


shouting out, don't you recognise we are a big power. But we will have no


say in a global decision. Jeremy Corbyn has hinted he might


bring Ed Miliband into the Shadow Cabinet. What about you, are you


available? I have done my bit for the Labour


Party, except shouting on the side as I do. That is his decision. I


want to see a united party. One of the things is people are confused


because of these changes. Where does Labour stand? Start talking about it


and be clearer on immigration. We have been cowards, the whole


political establishment has avoided the argument. That is a global


solution. There will be more migration coming from African


countries which have no water or food because of climate change. This


is not a temporary problem but a global problem and needs a global


solution and not a little country on the side shouting and staying out of


it. Thank you.


Now, even if plenty folks are still undecided,


you might think most Mps will have made their mind up as to how they'll


It's only two-and-a-half weeks to go, after all.


But, according to our research, there at still 26 undecided Tory


Well, we're going to reduce that number by one today,


as the Conservative MP Johnny Mercer is here to reveal for the first time


What is your decision? The first thing to say is, like a lot of


people, being out on the doors of Plymouth, we are disappointed by the


level of debate. Even today.


What is your decision? It is important to get this across.


But tell me, leave or remain? Two Government ministers saying the


Government is not telling the truth about the economy which has upset


people. In terms of this referendum, it is


clear we should remain, not a single economic expert has come out and


said this will do things for our economy, our jobs.


If you look at what this garment has delivered in places like Plymouth


around jobs, the single biggest factor in improving people's life


chances, it has done good things. It is the economic case.


And a security case. Why do the people of Plymouth seem not


convinced quite a recent polls say they were largely for Leave.


A poll I have been running has come out and said that.


When this debate started, I said this was an issue, not the issue. It


has become clear. I did not think we would vote to leave the EU. This is


a vote of singular importance to this country. People have begun to


forget we need to get on with Government on June 24.


That may be the case. But do you think you can win on the economic


arguments? With the economic arguments, there are single clear


points. On the economy, the people who


always feel the worst affected, it is always the most vulnerable.


Always those who file like a desperate struggle. My area of


Plymouth is still categorised by the EU as a deprived area in parts. They


cannot take that shock. It is OK for others to say we can go to this


nirvana. The truth is the same people are affected.


Why do 74% in your constituency say...


That is a very small poll. But it is indicative of the mood,


74%. People will feel more passionate


about leaving because for some people this is a single issue. They


have been looking for a reason to come out and leave the EU. I think


the vast majority do not want to leave. You are looking at where we


are now it is not perfect. We are on this trajectory. Do we throw it away


for a nirvana no one can quite lay their hands on. Could the most


vulnerable in the UK who rely on a job, on the NHS, public service


funding, could they withstand that shock? I can look them in the eye


and say, I went this based on something that sounded like a great


idea but I could not go for it. It has loads of problems.


Why take so long? Thinking about Europe is not something I got into


politics today about. I have spoken to a lot of people. It


would be naive to suggest there are reasons why people want to leave. On


balance, it is a clear case. Society is judged by how it looks after its


vulnerable. We have to remain part of the EU to continue to do that. It


isn't perfect. Thank you for coming on and telling


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead, when we'll be


talking about the referendum and the TV debates with the veteran


Conservative backbencher David Davis.


First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.


Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.


Tomorrow the newly elected Assembly has its first full


day of business and - for the first time in its modern


incarnation - there'll be an Opposition to


But has peace broken out between the two Executive parties?


I hope that this week has shown that we are confident in our decisions.


We're getting out there and making those decisions and moving forward.


There is a recognition that we have to work together.


But will the new leader of the Opposition ruin the honeymoon?


I'll be asking Mike Nesbitt how he sees his role over


And with me throughout, journalists Sam McBride


The third consecutive Stormont mandate gets down to business this


week with a full agenda - the first since last


As well as new faces on the benches there's also a new structure


But already this week we've seen a DUP minister visit


an Irish language school and a Sinn Fein Minister


lift the lifetime ban on gay blood donors.


So has the good weather improved the mood around the Executive table?


I welcome very much the fact that Peter went there. It was very good


to see a DUP minister recognised how important a contribution Irish


climate education makes to our children. I think also Michelle's


decision which has been supported by the executive in relation to the


lifting of the ban on gay blood is very welcome story for the LGBT


community. But I do think all this symbolises the fact that since the


agreement in November of last year, there is a recognition both within


the DUP and Sinn Fein that we have to work together and we have to be


seen to be giving leadership to everybody within society. We have to


show people that things are going to be different from the last term and


I think we are beginning to see that is taking shape.


We indicated that we wanted to get on with the job of governing and


think that we are confident enough to do all that they hope that this


week has shown that we are confident in our decisions, we're getting out


there, we are making those decisions and we're moving forward.


In terms of the decision on reversing the blood ban, were you


happy with that? I was because we always said that


such a decision should be based on science and based on medical


evidence and that medical evidence was there. Michelle came with the


evidence to others and I was quite happy to endorse the decision that


they suggested. If Simon had the chance to deal with it for the


election he would have done so. Is there choreography going on here


between the DUP and Sinn Fein because yesterday we had the Irish


climate school and we had Martin McGuinness at the Somme. Is that how


you are working together? I don't think there is choreography


toll. Peter is new into the department and has been visiting a


number of schools. He has been to his old Grammar School in Banga,


he's been to a primary school and he was at an Irish language school and


I estimate you will be many other schools in the coming months as


well. Listening to that is the first


Leader of the Opposition in half a century, Mike Nesbitt. Good morning.


Are you planning to spoil the party for them?


No. We are about scrutiny and that is not the same necessarily a


criticism. If you scrutinise and you think it is good you should say so.


For example, I very much welcome the lifting of the blood ban. I would


also welcome Peter we're going to the Irish language school. I did


that a few months ago. And I'm determined to engage and understand


better why those who an Irish language actually wanted.


Those two examples that we've talked about already and of course Martin


McGuinness travelling to the Somme, they put you on the back foot, don't


they? Because it looks like the DUP and Sinn Fein are very purposeful


and united and strategic. They have had nine years and now


they have an endorsement from the electorate and that it's fine. But


we are about delivery and scrutinising the delivery from


Government. We did try to fight the campaign for the last Assembly


election on lack of delivery in terms of the 80 million for property


and all the rest unless not go over that again. This is a new mandate.


We will have a programme for Government eventually and our job


will be to scrutinise that programme and its delivery. As I say, when it


is delivered properly, we will give praise and when it is not we will


criticise. Dust before we get onto the wider


issues I want pick up on that Martin McGuinness trip. Due welcome the


fact he travelled there this week? I think you did the right thing and


I think he did it in the right way because had he delayed his trip to


go on the 1st of July, it would've been controversial and it would have


dominated the centenary anniversary commemorations. So I think he did do


the right thing. Just as I believe I was right to go with some of my


colleagues down to Dublin a you days ago to the cemetery for an Easter


centenary event commemorating the British soldiers. Many of whom are


Irishmen, or from the Ireland and died in the rebellion.


He says he is demonstrating sensitive and strong leadership.


To you agree? I think in terms of what he did, that was the right


thing to do. I am more than happy to say that that is the right thing


that he did. What about this concept of


collective responsibility? We talked about it in the last mandate when it


clearly was not there. And for a large part of that mandate your


party was around the executive table. It seems that the DUP and


Sinn Fein are happy you are not there now and they seem to have


signed up completely to the concept of collective responsibility. They


are inextricably linked and bounced together in Government.


I think what we had in the past two mandates was nine years when you had


by all four parties in Government but actually, the smaller parties


being bossed by the two bigger ones and the back that we now have the


two parties, themselves alone in Government, is a more honest, open


and transparent way to do business. This delivery will be by Sinn Fein


and the DUP. And we're now and shackled. We have 16 MLAs who will


not be shackled by the fact that once I sat at the executive table


and has maybe put his hand up for a policy that the others want to


criticise. We are unshackled now and we can say exactly what we think


about what the executive is doing. What is opposition going to look


like? You of the largest party in opposition but are you going solo?


Is this about the Ulster Unionist Party's opposition strategy with 16


members, or is it about forming a united opposition with the other


biggest party in opposition, namely the SDLP?


It is not a secret that we've had discussions with the SDLP and we


will continue to have discussions with the SDLP but we will not be


rushed into anything. It has taken the DUP and Sinn Fein nine years to


get their relationship to the point where you are able to say they have


got their act together so we're going to take time to see how we go.


We have formed a team of spokespeople across the whole piece.


We expect the SDLP will do the same thing. But at the Goodwood make


sense of the various spokespeople started looking to see there are


areas where we can cooperate and develop alternative policies.


You would like it to be a joined up approach? Would you be the Leader of


the Opposition and would Colum Eastwood be the deputy leader?


That is the sort of line which which is not helpful.


It is not bad from your point of view but maybe not by him.


I have gone out of my way to say to him that you are the leader of the


SDLP. You're not the deputy leader or anything. If we're going to work


together it will be as coal equals on this.


I many times have you sat down and talked to Colum Eastwood about the


possibilities? What is the plan? How close do you think you are due being


able to sign up to a joint approach? We're not discussing signing up to


anything formal at this time. We have the spokespeople hopefully


starting to talk to each other. I will continue to build on a


relationship with Colum Eastwood. We sat together for a while with the


mandate. I like his style. I like Ricky is going and I like back to 30


wants Northern Ireland to work. His motivation for that is different


from mine obviously because he aspires to a united Ireland but that


motivation is no bar to working with him to ensure that the health


service gets fixed, that we create more high earning jobs, that we do


all the things that we aspire that says Northern Ireland does actually


work. Let's be honest. Wouldn't a combined


opposition speak with a much longer boys spent two positions of 16 and


13 respectively. -- much louder voice. If you're


saying I want to give your alternative logic says you want to


try and present a cross community alternative. So I will aspire to


that but what I am saying is we will not be rushed or pushed into it.


But you need to get on with it because tomorrow is the first full


day of proper business. They know is that what they are


doing and already the opposition is not quite clear.


It is only been a number of days. The DUP and Sinn Fein have an


working on their relationship for nine years. So I think we can take a


little bit of time to get this right.


Let's talk about the committees. A lot of the opposition, the opposing


should take face. There was a real possibility in this mandate that if


the DUP and Sinn Fein work as closely together as they seem to be


suggesting they want to, and controversial issues will be dealt


with in private between themselves and by the time it filters down to


the committees it is already been agreed.


That is speculation. We will have to wait and see.


It is informed speculation. I tell you what is possible. The DUP and


Sinn Fein being themselves alone in Government reduction it work better


than what we have had over the last nine years and if you believe in


country first, party second, which I do, then what I have done, that is


the result, is a good thing. Even if it is not a great thing for the


Ulster Unionist Party. If these parties deliver positive outcomes


for our people in the way they have not done over the last two mandates,


of course that is a good thing. Even by saying that you're shooting


yourself in the foot. You're saying is probably better the people in


Northern Ireland for Sinn Fein and the DUP to work together towards


some kind of agreed policy for the benefit of everybody in the country


and pushing you to one side. That is effectively what you are suggesting.


That is the mandate they were given and our job is to scrutinise how


they deliver on that. It might be difficult to do that


with the committee system the way it is because you have intentionally


committees were a DUP chair and step easy chair could protect a Sinn Fein


minister and vice versa. I cheer for the last four years. Like all the


other committees there are 11 members. Four of them were from the


DUP and three from Sinn Fein so if they wanted to at any point they


could have closed down. It was different in the previous mandate


because they were not working so closely together. With respect,


there were times in that committee where you


could see them eyeballing each other across the table and it was a clear


signal, let's close this down. And it may well be that happens much


more in the new mandate and the poor Sinn Fein and the DUP together have


a majority on every single committee including your own committee.


Yes. It is the same again. Four and three. Seven of the 11 on the


executive office committee. If they want to close it down on


committees they don't stop that scrutiny they can do that


effectively. You are to this. That is the mandate


that they have been given and the committees are not the only way we


will bring forward switch me of another nation. Would do it in the


chamber, media, whatever means we think is appropriate.


Would he put together some kind of programme for opposition which


people can compare and contrast? We've got a document now where we've


been circulated with a draft framework for Government.


What you are talking about is the second document in a series of


three. What they promise was a framework and that was supposed to


be ready for the 6th of May and use over two weeks to produce a draft


programme for Government which should now be finished and out for


consultation leading to the final... They publish the first one and that


is the framework. They will consult on that then draw up a draft


programme for Government, then consult on that and then finally at


the end of the year publish a document. You read paragraph 61 of


the agreement and they have failed to deliver on that agreement.


People at home might think, that -- had on them. A lot of people want


things done differently so if they manage to get their act together


they may agree with you that it could be better for everybody in


Northern Ireland. If that is the case, you are stuffed.


They are putting a lot of store on this so-called fresh start agreement


on what I'm saying to you, one of the core commitments in paragraph 61


is already a clear failure. They have failed to deliver what they


promise. In terms of an alternative programme for Government be not only


published a manifesto ahead of the 5th of May, we published eight other


documents, a vision document and seven specific policy documents so


the bones of an alternative programme for Government are already


there. Before I bring in Colum Eastwood and


Sam, you being quite magnanimous and we will see how that pans out in the


chamber when you get the wind in your back is the official Leader of


the Opposition but someone watching who is a young Unionist who fancies


a career in politics and can't decide between Ulster Unionists and


the DUP, why would he or she choose the Ulster Unionists over the DUP


with a DUP is in Government, seems to be unassailable Andras the having


to accept that if they do a good job that is grand by me?


If you That is what all editions are all


about. We have a credo ended his country


first, party second that individual bird.


Maybe you need to rethink that? Without that you would not have the


Belfast agreement in 1998. Let whomever weather DUP were on those


big the Asians. They were on the other side of the crash barriers. We


have done is a game by creating an official opposition. It is the right


time. Is not great for the Ulster Unionist Party.


Since 1998 you're gone down and down and down and dwindled and you said


yourself you went back to 16 seeds which could not be considered to be


successful. -- seats. It is over four years since we've


had 16 MLAs up at Stormont so our capacity to do the job is greatly


enhanced even if we did not grow the numbers in the way I had hoped.


Thank you. Stay with us because I want to ring in camp two and Sam.


What you make of the thing to back way things are shaping up between


this cohesive approach between the DUP and Sinn Fein and then, and as


yet unclear, opposition? I don't believe it is a cohesive


approach by the DUP and Sinn Fein. It appears to be much more amicable.


It looked very nice this week in various nice things were done in a


nice way but at the bottom about what we have is the DUP saying it


will be our way or no way. And Sinn Fein for pragmatic and no doubt


magnanimous and reasons which mean because they have invested so much


in getting into a peace process and maintaining it, have decided to


allow that to pass. There are a lot of people who think this has only


gone as far as it has an done as well as it has because Sinn Fein


have button-down lip and there are a lot of people in Sinn Fein who are


not happy about that. As I imagine there are people in Mike Nesbitt's


support base who are not happy he has been as magnanimous as he has


been today. This is the difficulty for both those parties. The


difficulty of politics here in general that if you try and make


peace, if you tried about in your lip you are offending people in your


own support base. It is intriguing situation because


were so many years we have had people saying we want constructive


politics. We want people to work together and then people begin to


work together and it throws up new challenges and difficulties.


I think people could be forgiven for being confused because we coming out


of an election winner DUP were saying vote for us to stop Martin


McGuinness said they were pushing that message themselves. Now they


have changed that and realise they are to work together and they have


been forced to do that much closer than they would have had to do if


there was not an opposition facing them. I think Mike Nesbitt has


struck gold with a good tone in that there is a lot of criticism of the


SDLP and the Ulster Unionists that they are just opposed to everything


and they need to see this as a long game. They are in opposition for


five years. There will be issues where they oppose the Government


can't just be seen as Jim Allister with extra seas. They need to be


able to present something which could form a Government at some


stage and I think they are wise actually to work together where they


need to but also to keep their separate identities are not be in a


position where something happens in the SDLP over a macho support --


over a March, and Mike Nesbitt is having to answer for it, and vice


versa with Colum Eastwood. Can they keep them all the line?


They have that situation over the community centre where the DUP do


not want public funding to go towards that because the names of


two IRA men from the 1920s would be on the gates. Is that an example of


the kind of events that could derail the collective responsibility around


the executive table? Collected responsibility and the


ability to make common cause in the opposition are rule depended on


events and a series of events coming up now which are called the marching


season. It will test Mike and it would text -- I was fascinated by


the thought that two parties in opposition, who may be able to


proceed in a way and build links between each other, or maybe will be


torn apart by the same things that have torn apart politics here


overall these years. Nonetheless it is progress.


I did not think it was possible and did not think they should go into


opposition. Events pose big challenges but if


you believe in it and you wanted to work you will get through events.


If you hold your nerve through the marching season.


I think a lot of people say that one of the problems previously when the


Ulster Unionists were at the heart of Government where the


interpersonal relationships which were not great. I am confident I can


build a good relationship with Colum Eastwood.


We will see and we will give a close eye.


I'm you will. Thank you very much. We will hear more in a moment or two


but let's pause and take a look back at the political week in 60 seconds.


As the football teams from those parts of the island got ready for


the euro is the Deputy First Minister was also on foreign soil as


he visited World War I battlefields. I am out of my comfort zone here


today. But that is what leaders do. I think if you are not -- a leader


you have to lead from the front. 100 anniversary of the battle


doctrine. The new Health Minister lifted the lifetime ban on gay men


donating blood here. I have been opposed for eight days.


I took the decision based on the evidence I had on front of being


will stop a comedian to go on a politician as they battle to win


hearts and minds over Europe. What signal does it sends to the


world? Surely humanity moves forward by working together not by putting


up more borders? Do you want to be able to decide the


laws of your own country by electing politicians?


Let's have a final word. Just a little flavour there of Thursday


night's debate between Eddie Izzard and Sammy Wilson. Does that can


exchange help people to make their minds up as an off a lot of people I


meet say they still cannot work out which way to vote?


Alternately that probably helps the remaining camp because when it comes


to the bit in the final week of the election, as we saw in Scotland,


people are more likely to plump for the evil they know.


Do you agree with that broadly? I thought it was great to see him


and Sammy having to be polite, faced with a man wearing lipstick and a


pink beret. I think you did not know what to


make of him. The claims never to oppose them before.


John Major got stuck into the Brexit campaigners calling them deceitful


and squalid. And that is what makes most people's


minds are piping. Look at the people who are for each side and go for


which way. The Brexit group do not appeal to an off a lot of people


that the debate here is largely decided by original politics. Most


Nationalists will bow to stay in and most Unionists narrowly perhaps will


vote come out. A final word? The Government has


been getting involved in the last week or so. They are alarmed about


this. The group persuade those nationalistic, or Unionists could


act against it. Thank you very much indeed. That is


it from all David Davis will talk to is about


the snoopers' charter, but that interview with John Major on the


Andrew Marr Show, earlier we showed you in talking about the deceit of


the Leave campaign, this is in talking about Boris Johnson's


prospect of leading the party. If they continued to divide the


Conservative Party, as they are doing at the present time, and if


Boris has the laudable ambition, because it is laudable to become


Prime Minister, he will find, if he achieves that, that he will not have


the loyalty of the party he divided. Iain Duncan Smith was serially


disloyal in the 1990s. When he became leader, he was surprised that


no-one was loyal to him. Boris should learn from that.


What was the purpose of his interview this morning?


I guess number ten asked him to do it, and being a loyal supporter of a


Tory party, he would do that. I guess he was trying to reduce the


credibility of the Leave campaign's claim. Some irony when you consider


the most incredible claim has been from George Osborne, the Treasury,


in terms of his forecasts, and even what John Major said, I was his last


defender in the Commons, the numbers bandying around.


He said for example this controversial ?350 million was one


third of that. That is half the net contribution. He said industries


would face 10% levies. The car industry would, but most of


the others would be up to 5%. He was not being very


straightforward with the numbers. Were you surprised how personal the


attacks on Boris well. We know he has long hated Iain


Duncan Smith. Understandable. But saying in the


hands of Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, IDS, the NHS would be like


a hamster in a room with a pattern. He was trashing the Tory brand.


A harsh attack. I don't think it was very wise.


One of the problems both sides of this campaign have had is it is too


personalised. The public don't like it. After the


23rd, we had to pull the party together.


With that sort of attack, it is a bad idea.


Sam. Let me put it this way. Whatever the result, things for the


Tories will never be the same again for the rest of this Parliament.


It will be very hard. Clearly with a working majority of about 18, hard


to get contentious the station through, the biggest area of danger


for David Cameron. He will be a zombie Prime Minister, he can't get


it through the Commons, and the Lords is a different matter where


legislation will get stuck. You saw the kinds of things in the


Queen's Speech. With the exception of the data Bill, I can't see any of


the bills will be that radical when they get passed into law. So I think


there will be a successful coup after June the 23rd, that seems


unlikely. Even if it is a vote to Leave.


That could change things. I think David Cameron would go within his


own time. In the case of a remain vote, there are up to 20 MPs who


bitterly disliked David Cameron. I don't think that number has


dramatically increased solely as a result of the referendum campaign.


There is a safety valve, the leadership election which will


happen possibly sooner than you think.


There may not be an immediate coup even if the vote is to Remain.


The keyword or words, zombie parliaments, there are anything


between 20-50 MPs deeply disillusioned with the Prime


Minister. They have a taste for revolt. The


Government majority is derisory. This Government could now find it


very difficult to get anything major through this potential zombie


parliament. That is absolutely true. On the


matter of a coup, there are a number of mischief makers within the Tory


ranks who don't mind if a coup succeeds or fails, they feel the


Labour opposition is so weak, they have the luxury of doing this.


I think the numbers are lower than you think. I would say 20, not more


than that. That is enough, given the Government


majority. These are the ones that hate the


regime as it were. You have another group. The problem


is not if there is a Brexit victory, but if there is a very narrow Remain


victory. A lot of those wanting Brexit will


feel they have been cheated. The ?9 million spent on the


leaflets, all of that, they will be difficult to manage.


This is a Government that has found it hard to get its budget through.


Almost unprecedented, it lost most of the major parts of the budget


unveiled in March. Would it not be even more difficult if it is a vote


to Remain, but small, to get its business through except the


noncontroversial. To say it is difficult for the


future is a description of the past ten months, they had two H a great


answer their planned pensions reform amongst other things.


The potential American trade deal. Most recently, and prior to the


referendum. Things will become difficult


afterwards. David Cameron will end up leading my kind of Government, it


won't do very much. The basic strategic stuff. What the founders


in America intended. The one bit of optimism for the Tories, it picks up


on David's point, I wouldn't underestimate how many Tory MPs want


is referendum done with, that includes absolutely committed


leaders who don't think much of David Cameron.


Interviewing Johnny Mercer, he wants it over, you can tell from his


demeanour. And he wouldn't look at me but there


may be another reason! We don't need to go that!


Let me ask you. Given the kind of Government our panel are talking


about, it is already difficult for the Government to get things done.


Even more difficult after the referendum I would suggest if it is


Remain by a small majority. Does that give you hope for your


continued opposition to the investigatory Powers act for the


police and intelligence services? Taking up on the American view, look


what happened with tax credits. There were about 40 people opposing


it, only two voting against it. It went to the House of Lords, got


knocked back. The Government knew there was a looming rebellion.


That will be the message of the future.


A lot of that pressure play. The investigative powers act, large


parts of it will be flayed by the House of Lords, the Government will


concede. That is the way it will happen.


Whether it is the approval mechanisms or the data gathered or


who has access, those will be challenged.


All those things will now be more at risk at least after the referendum.


Maybe why they are brushing it through in the next few days.


I would suggest looking at the campaign, two and a half weeks to


go, in the week up to the Whitsun bank holiday, Remain one that, and


overwhelming economic amount of stuff coming out.


In the weeks since leading up to this weekend, Leave have probably


done better. The interviews on Sky.


Still all to play for. Leave goes into this week probably with a


spring in its step. I think that is right. One of the


mistakes of the Remain campaign was at two different points, to feel


like they were heading for victory. Once in the aftermath of the visit


by President Barack Obama. They thought it was a big moment that


would produce a push. A couple of weeks ago, they sensed


that polls were going their way, in private conversations they thought


they had got it in the bag. That created hubris and a problem.


They did not see coming the Australian style points system


attacked by Vote Leave last weekend, setting out plans. They thought it


would be a policy freak referendum campaign. That pulled the debate


back into the Leave side. Is Leave thinking it can win?


Privately, I think they are beginning to think they have a 50-50


chance, maybe more. Previously, privately, a lot would admit they


felt pessimistic. I definitely sense a shift. If you


look at what happened in Scotland, it was around this time use saw


polls saw an advantage -- seeing an advantage for independence.


Still three weeks to go, nobody is counting their chickens.


I am reliably informed Leave is ahead but that is embargoed so I


didn't mention it. But they still don't think they are


losing? How big a victory do they need in


order to put the question to bed and preserve the Prime Minister.


At least 55-45? That would do it. The fact they


deployed John Major shows they are worried.


John Major was the nuclear weapons. Lose or win, yes or no?


Brexit, a small margin. You heard it here first. Just to


mention, as well as the debate we have been discussing, I will be


interviewing leading figures from both sides of


Starting tomorrow at 7.30 on BBC One, with Shadow Foreign


Followed on Wednesday by Chancellor George Osborne.


And then it's the turn of Leave campaigners Nigel Farage


I hope you can join me, it should be fun.


And, of course, we're back here next week as usual at 11 o'clock


Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest on the EU referendum campaigns. Andrew is joined by John Prescott and Conservative MP David Davis. There is also commentary from political journalists Janan Ganesh, Sam Coates and Isabel Oakeshott.

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