Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest on the EU referendum campaigns. Andrew is joined by John Prescott and Conservative MP David Davis.
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Just over a fortnight to go, and the referendum debate is getting
serious, with Boris Johnson and John Major the latest senior
We'll be discussing all the week's big developments,
We've hit the road with both campaigns, and we've got two big
I'll be joined by Labour's John Prescott,
And, if you haven't decided how to vote yet,
One MP who's only now finally reached a decision will reveal live
And coming up here - As the Assembly prepares
for its first full week of business, I'll be talking to Mike Nesbitt
about opposition and his relationship with his SDLP
And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times
more likely to trust the word of a random stranger
And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times
I'm joined by a political panel with the full authority
It's Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott, and Janan Ganesh.
We'll try and find some random strangers to replace
them next week, and see if you notice the difference!
So, in case you weren't sure just how high the stakes were in this
referendum campaign, you only have to look at this
morning's papers, and listen to former Prime Minister John Major
taking aim at his fellow Tories in the Leave campaign.
The current Prime Minister David Cameron tried to get his party
to avoid so-called blue-on-blue attacks, in the hope of keeping
It seems like John Major didn't get the message,
as he accused the Leave campaign of squalid deceit,
and called Boris Johnson a court jester.
Here he is, talking to Andrew Marr earlier.
This is going to affect people, their livelihoods, their future,
for a very long time to come, and if they are given honest,
straightforward facts and they decide to leave,
then that is the decision the British people take.
But if they decide to leave on the basis of inaccurate
information, inaccurate information known to be inaccurate,
Now, I may be wrong, but that is how I see their campaign.
And this is so important, for once, I'm not prepared to give the benefit
of the doubt to other people, I'm going to say
And I think this is a deceitful campaign, and in terms
of what they are saying about immigration, a really
They are misleading people to an extraordinary extent.
So, that was former Prime Minister John Major, but,
when Boris Johnson took to the same sofa, he studiously declined
to return fire when asked if those words were part of an attempt
by the Remain campaign to "take him out".
Whether it is or not, this morning I think that...
I'm rather with John McDonnell this morning...
He says that there's too much of this sort of blue-on-blue action,
and what he wants to hear is the arguments,
Boris failing to take the bait. As I said, John major hadn't got the
memo from down the street, that was a joke.
The fact was John Major was sent into the show by Downing Street to
beat up on Boris. Is that an example, a testament to have rattled
they are? My own evidence is they are very
rattled, they got extremely twitchy about something I tweeted on Friday
night where I suggested a prominent Remain person was appearing on sky.
This shows the level of nerves in Downing Street. The kind of language
being exchanged between senior figures in the party raises very
serious questions about how the party comes together.
We had Michael Gove this morning saying he thinks the party can come
together on June the 24th. Of course they can, but I doubt it will be on
June the 24th. It is quite remarkable for a
Conservative Downing Street to get a former Conservative prime ministers
to come onto the BBC, the main Sunday morning news show, Andrew
Maher, and to beat up on the man who is currently favourite to be the
Tory leader. That is almost unprecedented.
John Major put his credibility on the line with phrases like squalid,
depressing. He was going for Boris Johnson.
There is a clear, strategic imperative behind what John Major
was saying, he is trying to reduce Boris Johnson's credibility,
currently the most popular and trusted figure in the EU debate.
They are worried and trying to harm that.
So, they are going for the man. The Big Questions this morning for
Downing Street, and it is right to point fingers at Downing Street for
pushing this kind of intervention, stiffening John Major's spines when
it turned out Boris was going to be on the programme I think he had a
bubble. That is my understanding. The danger
is that Downing Street are encouraging this, to send this
debate into a Tory blue-on-blue battle.
The effect may well be to deter Labour voters.
The people who want Britain to stay inside you need to do two things, to
make sure Tory voters vote for Remain, and turn out the Remain vote
against Labour and SNB voters. The question is whether having all
the headlines dominated by this blue-on-blue fight -- SNP.
It means people shrug and give up. It is more than just blue-on-blue.
From what John Major said this morning, it seems Downing Street is
prepared to trash the Tory brand, their own brand, in desperation to
win on June the 23rd. John Major describing one of the
likely people to be the ex-Tory leader -- next Tory leader as a
court jester. Saying, if you put Michael Gove,
Boris Johnson comic Iain Duncan Smith in charge of the NHS, is like
giving your pet hamster to a buy them. A second Tory poster. How can
you not conclude they are so desperate about June the 23rd they
are prepared to trash their own party's brand.
Short of using the B word when he thought the Microsoft when talking
to Michael Brunson, it was very vociferous.
It is true Boris Johnson did not retaliate in the interview. John
Major and number ten would argue that retaliation was made very
early, over the past few weeks, the Prime Minister's integrity on some
questions had been brought into doubt by people in his own party.
Without defending number ten's instructions to John Major if they
exist, they feel aggrieved because of attacks during the campaign.
Looking at the footage of John Major, I detect sincere emotion on
his part, rather than being a mouthpiece.
I did argue that he didn't mean what he said.
As Sam was saying, he didn't want to come on.
This is such an important development, it tells us about the
remain camped. Now, staying with the EU referendum,
today we're going to try Two well-informed campaigners,
the Conservative MEP Dan Hannan and the Labour MP Emma Reynolds,
will be interrogating each other I'll mostly just be sitting
back to watch. A short while ago in our green room,
they tossed a coin to see Emma is the winner, or loser,
depending on your point of view, so they'll be the first
to be cross-examined. They took a break in campaigning
to make their pitch I'm Daniel Hannan, Conservative
Member of the European Parliament, and I'm inviting you to fire me
on the 23rd of June. First, because leaving
is the modern choice. The European Union
is a relic of the 1950s, when regional blocs
looked like the future, but that world has been overtaken
by technological change. Second, because it's
the cheaper choice. Instead of handing Brussels
?20 billion a year gross, 10 billion net, we'll have our money
to spend on our priorities. We will take back the sublime right
to hire and fire our own lawmakers. In a necessarily uncertain world,
we will have taken back control to mitigate any risks ourselves
instead of passing power to people who may not
have our interests at heart. And fifth, because it's
the confident choice. We are a merchant,
maritime, global nation, the fifth largest economy
on the planet, one of five permanent seat-holders
on the UN Security Council. We have the world's most
widely studied language, before we are able to run our own
affairs in our own interests? Trading and cooperating with friends
and allies on every continent, including Europe,
but living under our own laws. So, here are Dan Hannan
and Emma Reynolds. And, just to explain the rules,
you've just five You can only ask questions,
or only give answers. Nine out of ten economists and a
string of organisations say leaving the EU would damage the economy,
make families worse off, cause a recession, could you name an
independent economic force -- economic forecaster who has said the
opposite? Five former chancellors are
campaigning to leave, plenty of economists, ...
Gerard Lyons has said, although in favour of leaving, if we were to
vote to leave, the two years, it would cause great uncertainty and
depress the economy. He hasn't said that. He said that in
a report. He hasn't. You will have to do
better than that. He is strongly of the view leaving means walking away
from a declining trade bloc and being able to leap up... And the
uncertainty? All these international bodies...
Hang on. The IMF, these are people who shared the outlook,
international bureaucrats, they share the lifestyle, the tax-free
lifestyle, they shared the basic outlook. Through euros, because that
is the kind of circles they live in. The Institute for Fiscal Studies is
widely respected, they have said by leaving we could blow a black hole
of up to ?40 billion in our public finances, meaning less money for
public services. They were feeding in the same basic
data they got from these IMF, OECD organisations.
They are independent. If I didn't think we would be better off as a
whole, I would not be inviting viewers to make me redundant. The
reason I am confident I will have a job in the private sector doing
something more productive than regulating everyone else is we
shouldn't be linked to the world is Oates only collapsing trade bloc.
There are huge opportunity -- the world's. We are the only one that
hasn't grown. Another question, you have described
the NHS as the biggest 60 year mistake, why can the public trust
the Leave campaign when they don't want the NHS to be in public hands?
I said the mistake was having a nationalised system rather than a
pluralist one as they have in almost every other industrialised country.
The referendum is an instruction to the Government to get us out.
It does not mean you are electing the boat Leave campaign, but giving
a mandate to get us out on terms and in a timescale said to our allies
across the control -- the channel but in our interests.
We are really looking at a decision to leave and asking people not to
trust any other politician but the British electorate.
The weight of economic evidence is on the remain camped, you would
admit that at least. Can you name a country that has
access to the single market but does not accept free movement?
The EU side free trade agreements with Colombia...
You said access to the single market, every country in Europe has
access to the single market. There is a free trade area from
non-EU Iceland... Why therefore does Ireland and
Norway faced agricultural tariffs of over 13%?
Ireland and Norway? Icelands and Norway.
Yes, they have wisely chosen to stay out of the Common Agricultural
Policy. Their farmers are strongly in favour of staying out of the CIP.
If we did the same thing, instead of being doubly penalised as a net food
importer with efficient farms, paying more in, getting less out, we
can have a British farming policy tailored to suit our needs.
In Northern Ireland, you suggested the border would remain open between
the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. How can you therefore
guarantee that if you want to stop free movement, that European
migrants would not come through that border? You are leaving the back
door open. Illegal migrants could come through that border today but
do not. They could come through legally. We have an agreement which
includes the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are not in
the, it long predates the EU. The point is it is possible now, don't
take anyone's word for it, we have a common travel area with EU and
non-EU states, no-one in Dublin or Westminster is suggesting that is a
problem. We have only three seconds to go, tough and time in the
interests of fairness! It is the dunnock Emma to be cross-examined,
let's look at her pitch to undecided voters.
We are stronger, safer and better off in Europe.
Families benefit from lower prices, more jobs,
Businesses benefit from a European single market
Workers benefit from employment protection.
We trade more with the EU than any other country.
from companies like Jaguar Land Rover here in the West Midlands.
And by staying in the EU, we will attract even more investment
and create more jobs for the next generation.
In the 21st century, the challenges that our country face
no longer stop at the White Cliffs of Dover.
Cross-border crime and terrorism, climate change -
by working with our European partners,
we can meet these challenges successfully.
predicts that damage will be done to our economy if we leave.
And the Bank of England Governor, Mark Carney,
It would create a black hole in our public finances,
meaning less money for our public services, like schools and the NHS.
for more jobs, prosperity and security.
As before, Dan, you now have five minutes
to put your questions. Off you go.
Thank you. As you know, the EU is not a settled dispensation, it is
undergoing the Euro crisis, the Schengen crisis, migration problems,
and it is evolving - what are the greatest risks of Remain? Well, you
would keep your job! You seem to want to lose your job. I don't think
that there are great risks of as remaining, because we have the best
of both worlds. We are not in the eurozone, we have the pound as our
currency, like eight other member states retain their currency, but we
have unfettered access to the single market, and no other country... What
can you tell us about budget contributions in ten or 15 years'
time? I know what our budget contributions are today, not what is
on the side of your bus. How many migrants might be resettled here?
More came from outside of the EU than inside. Can you tell us how
many bailouts we might be dragged into? Zero. So if we vote to stay
in, even though we had a written guarantee in 2014 that which would
not be dragged into a bailout, you trust them this time? You say that
but you are a MEP. I am asking the questions. I think the ministers go
to the Council of Ministers meetings, 97% of the votes won, we
are not run by Eurocrats. You cannot answer any of the questions about
how it might look if we stay in, so there are risks both ways. Is it
safer to take back control to mitigate risks ourselves, or save a
passing control to people who may not have our interests at heart? I
do not know why you mistrust our European partners to such a great
extent, because the challenges we face in the 21st century, climate
change, cross-border crime, terrorism, those are challenges we
share with our partners. Let me ask another question, in our country we
have an example of a very high-minded, radical tradition that
has been very good at dispersing power from oligarchs to the general
population. As an heiress to the suffragettes and the chartists, do
you feel comfortable backing an elitist, anti-democratic project
where supreme power is wielded by people immune to the ballot box,
where we pay more to wealthy French farmers than poor African farmers,
and where we have inflicted joblessness and misery on tens of
millions of people around the Mediterranean while Eurocrats like
around in private jets? Does that seem comfortable as a person on the
centre-left? I feel comfortable because I feel the EU has been a
force for good in terms of employment protection, in a way a
Conservative governments never has, comfortable because we elect our
MEPs, and we elect a government that sends ministers to Brussels to have
the final say on European regulations, and I feel comfortable
as a British MP that over the vast majority of policy areas, whether
health, housing, education, policing, we have confidence in
those areas. So Lord Rose, the leader of the remainder campaign
says Vote Leave for higher wages, Paddy Ashdown says we will get
cheaper food, don't you think there are benefits to the majority of low
and medium income people from having that boosting household income? On
the contrary. So they are wrong? I think they are wrong, people in my
constituency, low and middle incomes, they will suffer the most
if manufacturing is eliminated, according to the Brexit Economist,
the Bank of England governor has predicted a recession, and it will
be people I reserve present who will be worse after macro, not people
earning high income jobs. -- worse off. What is the strongest argument
for voting Leave? I don't think there is one. None at all? This is
one of the things that puzzles a lot of people trying to make up their
mind. You do not think there are any benefits of staying in the EU. It is
not my job to tell you them, but I can see them! People make an issue
out of being so broad-minded and reasonable, but they struggle to see
the other point of view at all. They cannot put themselves in the shoes
of the people that the EU is not benefiting, which is the vast
majority. There is a lot of scaremongering on your side about
what might happen, because if we stay in, we will pretty much have
the status quo, access to a market where we trade more than with the
rest of the world, 44% of our exports go to the rest of the EU.
Our trade unions represent four million people who think we should
stay. I would rather this on to them than you. Do you think the European
Union is a growing, successful scheme that people would join today
if we were not already a member? Yes no? Yes. We ended there, I thank you
both for that. So, this week both sides of this
referendum have really The big set-piece TV
grillings have begun. Senior Conservatives have been
knocking lumps out of each other. And the Labour machine seems finally
to have creaked into life. We'll be talking about
all of that today. But, first, our Adam's been
on the buses to see where this
campaign is heading. There's livestock,
there's Boris Johnson, and there's a man
with a stuffed animal. Well, I suppose I could have
accidentally bought the cow This was the week the referendum
started to feel a bit more like a general election
campaign, and not just because of
the photo op. Vote Leave unveiled
a spending commitment, cutting the VAT on domestic fuel,
and a whole new immigration system - And here Boris told farmers
that their subsidies would be safe, even if the UK left the EU -
not everyone was convinced. There's no authority, no power,
he's just a person that's walked in here
and said what he's got to say. You could say it, I could
say it, I can promise. First of all,
where are your wellies? Are you getting a bit
of grief from the farmers? No, there's a lot of
support, a lot of support, and a lot of people
coming up to me and saying, "We are with you,
we want to come out." Some people, obviously, need
reassurance about the subsidies, He left - without offering me
a lift, so I caught the train, to Birmingham,
and the Labour in campaign. But this week Jeremy Corbyn
made a big speech after it emerged many Labour supporters didn't know
the party was in favour of the EU. Do you think that was
a great speech from JC? Jeremy's journey, if you like,
which mirrors the journeys that many have made on this,
he was a Eurosceptic in '75, and I think he's more powerful
for that. Our journey took us to a building
site to see investment from abroad that the Remain campaign claim
is linked to our EU membership. Of course, with foreign
money comes foreigners. How are you going to vote?
No, come out. Why's that? Because of all the immigrants
and things like that. Too many of them now
coming into this country. Well, inevitably,
I've ended up in one of these This week, the Remain campaign
got some high visibility backing from foreign leaders -
in Spain, the Netherlands, the former Foreign Secretary
David Miliband. Some people might say
that you live in America now, you are one of these high-profile
foreigners coming over and lecturing us on what to do,
what do you say to that? I'm a British voter,
and I'm able to speak with passion about my own country,
this is my home country, and although it's not where I live
and work at the moment, I still feel that there is
a real obligation to speak not just to the economic issues
and the security issues, but also the foreign-policy
issues, frankly. to ride on Britain Stronger
in Europe's luxury coach, or hop onto Nigel Farage's
double-decker. You wait ages for a referendum
battle bus to come along, So, you heard Alan Johnson there
defending Jeremy Corbyn's latest intervention in the referendum
campaign, despite critics claiming that Labour hasn't exactly been
full-throated in its campaign Well, the former Deputy Prime
Minister and veteran Labour campaigner John Prescott
seems to agree. He says in his newspaper column
today that his party's message
hasn't been getting through. John Prescott, good morning to you.
Good morning. You say in your column that the Conservatives have hijacked
the campaign, why has Labour allowed that to happen? It is a good point,
I suggested in the paper that it seems almost to have been the
strategy, blue on blue destroying the Tory party, hopefully, we will
have to wait and see! We saw that in the broadcasts this morning, but
where is Labour? It seems as if we are just enjoying the fight between
them, but that is not putting our position. Labour maybe in the
European Union, I support being in it, but we're not putting the
arguments, and so when you see on a bus there, for example, on Boris's
bus, ?350 million a week to put into the health service, this is from a
government that reduced from 9% of GDP the average in Europe to 7%, and
when they go on with a Labour politician in this way, Gisela, the
Tories get the publicity, and they are in the background. We are not
putting down the record of the Tories, they cannot do it because
they are in a joint agreement on a bus about Europe. Let me just get
another question in, as a result of everything you say, are you worried
that you are failing to galvanise the Labour vote, do get it out to
vote for Remain on the 23rd? Absolutely! Labour people want to
hear Labour people talking about this government's record, whether
they are four in or out, they carried out a record that is
basically destroying our health service, housing was halved in
billions, and now they say they will bring it. Michael Gove says all
these terrible bankers, why didn't the vote with Labour to stop the
bonuses for them? He didn't, he doesn't, they are hypocritical, we
must show that Labour has strong values, we believe in social
justice. When you have heard Tories talking about being social justice?!
Look Labour, at Labour. Maybe Labour voters are confused, when you look
at Jeremy Corbyn's pro EU speech, he spent as much time attacking the
Tories and EU policies. Good on Jeremy! By Sea said the bad things
predicted by Vote Leave work addicted by those who say we should
remain, that all the scare stories were just myth-making and prophecies
of doom. Is it any surprise that Labour voters are confused? Yes, but
I do not think we should talk too much about what we should do, Jeremy
is not a passionate man, he does not scream and shout like me, does he?!
But to that extent, our people want to see, and this is what has
happened to politics, people speak and do believe what they are saying!
On both sides, Cameron's side, Boris Johnson, they are saying things that
they did not do in government, which Labour oppose, and they are against
social justice. We want a Labour Europe, different to them, not, we
all believe in Europe, let's travel on the same bus! No wonder people
are confused, get a strong Labour voice, and glad Jeremy said what he
said, but point out what these beggars did in government!
What about the confusion, even Damian McBride caught on Twitter
offering policy tips to the Brexit campaign.
Labour voters seem to be confused. I don't say that the Europe they
want is the one I want. I took part in the last referendum. Despite the
Tories not giving us a referendum and taking us in 1975 into the
common market. I do believe, I was against a political Europe. In fact,
I turned down a job with Jim Callaghan to be commissioner. On
that ground, I thought that is where they were heading.
I can't say it has stopped. What we argued then was for a wider Europe
so we didn't move along the federal Europe case. That is still an
argument to be fought for, I feel strongly, Labour does. I'm not sure
the Tories pursued it. Sadiq Khan, tested Jarrell, Harriet
Harman, they have appeared with Tories, including the Prime
Minister. You refused, but last night you were appearing on Russia
Today, a Putin propaganda channel, with Ken Livingstone, he has been
suspended from your party, have you thought this through?
Of course. I don't go in joint party operations, I never have. I didn't
when I fought the Labour in 1975. I am the same. I am not saying they
can't or shouldn't. We are saying the Labour vote is crucial and there
is confusion as to the Labour position.
Standing alongside Tory politicians, the survey has recently shown most
of the speeches that come out of that are Tory spokesmen. 48% Tory,
8% Labour. Why are we confused? Like in Scotland, if you appear alongside
them bring on Europe, you better start telling people what you
disagree about. Jeremy is trying to do that. I
wouldn't do it, it adds to the confusion. If you can't get the
Labour vote out in big numbers, are you worried you could lose this
referendum? Yes. I want every Labour person in
to vote. I fought on the last one thinking we would win on the
referendum, and we lost, mainly it was particularly women, they get
concerned about the long-term, their children, security, I think that is
what defeated as in 1975. Seriously, I think it will go the other way. We
need to be talking about the big powers. It is not Britain on its
own, it is global powers, America, India, China, who will decide the
issue about crime, immigration, security. We will be a little island
shouting out, don't you recognise we are a big power. But we will have no
say in a global decision. Jeremy Corbyn has hinted he might
bring Ed Miliband into the Shadow Cabinet. What about you, are you
available? I have done my bit for the Labour
Party, except shouting on the side as I do. That is his decision. I
want to see a united party. One of the things is people are confused
because of these changes. Where does Labour stand? Start talking about it
and be clearer on immigration. We have been cowards, the whole
political establishment has avoided the argument. That is a global
solution. There will be more migration coming from African
countries which have no water or food because of climate change. This
is not a temporary problem but a global problem and needs a global
solution and not a little country on the side shouting and staying out of
it. Thank you.
Now, even if plenty folks are still undecided,
you might think most Mps will have made their mind up as to how they'll
It's only two-and-a-half weeks to go, after all.
But, according to our research, there at still 26 undecided Tory
Well, we're going to reduce that number by one today,
as the Conservative MP Johnny Mercer is here to reveal for the first time
What is your decision? The first thing to say is, like a lot of
people, being out on the doors of Plymouth, we are disappointed by the
level of debate. Even today.
What is your decision? It is important to get this across.
But tell me, leave or remain? Two Government ministers saying the
Government is not telling the truth about the economy which has upset
people. In terms of this referendum, it is
clear we should remain, not a single economic expert has come out and
said this will do things for our economy, our jobs.
If you look at what this garment has delivered in places like Plymouth
around jobs, the single biggest factor in improving people's life
chances, it has done good things. It is the economic case.
And a security case. Why do the people of Plymouth seem not
convinced quite a recent polls say they were largely for Leave.
A poll I have been running has come out and said that.
When this debate started, I said this was an issue, not the issue. It
has become clear. I did not think we would vote to leave the EU. This is
a vote of singular importance to this country. People have begun to
forget we need to get on with Government on June 24.
That may be the case. But do you think you can win on the economic
arguments? With the economic arguments, there are single clear
points. On the economy, the people who
always feel the worst affected, it is always the most vulnerable.
Always those who file like a desperate struggle. My area of
Plymouth is still categorised by the EU as a deprived area in parts. They
cannot take that shock. It is OK for others to say we can go to this
nirvana. The truth is the same people are affected.
Why do 74% in your constituency say...
That is a very small poll. But it is indicative of the mood,
74%. People will feel more passionate
about leaving because for some people this is a single issue. They
have been looking for a reason to come out and leave the EU. I think
the vast majority do not want to leave. You are looking at where we
are now it is not perfect. We are on this trajectory. Do we throw it away
for a nirvana no one can quite lay their hands on. Could the most
vulnerable in the UK who rely on a job, on the NHS, public service
funding, could they withstand that shock? I can look them in the eye
and say, I went this based on something that sounded like a great
idea but I could not go for it. It has loads of problems.
Why take so long? Thinking about Europe is not something I got into
politics today about. I have spoken to a lot of people. It
would be naive to suggest there are reasons why people want to leave. On
balance, it is a clear case. Society is judged by how it looks after its
vulnerable. We have to remain part of the EU to continue to do that. It
isn't perfect. Thank you for coming on and telling
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead, when we'll be
talking about the referendum and the TV debates with the veteran
Conservative backbencher David Davis.
First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
Tomorrow the newly elected Assembly has its first full
day of business and - for the first time in its modern
incarnation - there'll be an Opposition to
But has peace broken out between the two Executive parties?
I hope that this week has shown that we are confident in our decisions.
We're getting out there and making those decisions and moving forward.
There is a recognition that we have to work together.
But will the new leader of the Opposition ruin the honeymoon?
I'll be asking Mike Nesbitt how he sees his role over
And with me throughout, journalists Sam McBride
The third consecutive Stormont mandate gets down to business this
week with a full agenda - the first since last
As well as new faces on the benches there's also a new structure
But already this week we've seen a DUP minister visit
an Irish language school and a Sinn Fein Minister
lift the lifetime ban on gay blood donors.
So has the good weather improved the mood around the Executive table?
I welcome very much the fact that Peter went there. It was very good
to see a DUP minister recognised how important a contribution Irish
climate education makes to our children. I think also Michelle's
decision which has been supported by the executive in relation to the
lifting of the ban on gay blood is very welcome story for the LGBT
community. But I do think all this symbolises the fact that since the
agreement in November of last year, there is a recognition both within
the DUP and Sinn Fein that we have to work together and we have to be
seen to be giving leadership to everybody within society. We have to
show people that things are going to be different from the last term and
I think we are beginning to see that is taking shape.
We indicated that we wanted to get on with the job of governing and
think that we are confident enough to do all that they hope that this
week has shown that we are confident in our decisions, we're getting out
there, we are making those decisions and we're moving forward.
In terms of the decision on reversing the blood ban, were you
happy with that? I was because we always said that
such a decision should be based on science and based on medical
evidence and that medical evidence was there. Michelle came with the
evidence to others and I was quite happy to endorse the decision that
they suggested. If Simon had the chance to deal with it for the
election he would have done so. Is there choreography going on here
between the DUP and Sinn Fein because yesterday we had the Irish
climate school and we had Martin McGuinness at the Somme. Is that how
you are working together? I don't think there is choreography
toll. Peter is new into the department and has been visiting a
number of schools. He has been to his old Grammar School in Banga,
he's been to a primary school and he was at an Irish language school and
I estimate you will be many other schools in the coming months as
well. Listening to that is the first
Leader of the Opposition in half a century, Mike Nesbitt. Good morning.
Are you planning to spoil the party for them?
No. We are about scrutiny and that is not the same necessarily a
criticism. If you scrutinise and you think it is good you should say so.
For example, I very much welcome the lifting of the blood ban. I would
also welcome Peter we're going to the Irish language school. I did
that a few months ago. And I'm determined to engage and understand
better why those who an Irish language actually wanted.
Those two examples that we've talked about already and of course Martin
McGuinness travelling to the Somme, they put you on the back foot, don't
they? Because it looks like the DUP and Sinn Fein are very purposeful
and united and strategic. They have had nine years and now
they have an endorsement from the electorate and that it's fine. But
we are about delivery and scrutinising the delivery from
Government. We did try to fight the campaign for the last Assembly
election on lack of delivery in terms of the 80 million for property
and all the rest unless not go over that again. This is a new mandate.
We will have a programme for Government eventually and our job
will be to scrutinise that programme and its delivery. As I say, when it
is delivered properly, we will give praise and when it is not we will
criticise. Dust before we get onto the wider
issues I want pick up on that Martin McGuinness trip. Due welcome the
fact he travelled there this week? I think you did the right thing and
I think he did it in the right way because had he delayed his trip to
go on the 1st of July, it would've been controversial and it would have
dominated the centenary anniversary commemorations. So I think he did do
the right thing. Just as I believe I was right to go with some of my
colleagues down to Dublin a you days ago to the cemetery for an Easter
centenary event commemorating the British soldiers. Many of whom are
Irishmen, or from the Ireland and died in the rebellion.
He says he is demonstrating sensitive and strong leadership.
To you agree? I think in terms of what he did, that was the right
thing to do. I am more than happy to say that that is the right thing
that he did. What about this concept of
collective responsibility? We talked about it in the last mandate when it
clearly was not there. And for a large part of that mandate your
party was around the executive table. It seems that the DUP and
Sinn Fein are happy you are not there now and they seem to have
signed up completely to the concept of collective responsibility. They
are inextricably linked and bounced together in Government.
I think what we had in the past two mandates was nine years when you had
by all four parties in Government but actually, the smaller parties
being bossed by the two bigger ones and the back that we now have the
two parties, themselves alone in Government, is a more honest, open
and transparent way to do business. This delivery will be by Sinn Fein
and the DUP. And we're now and shackled. We have 16 MLAs who will
not be shackled by the fact that once I sat at the executive table
and has maybe put his hand up for a policy that the others want to
criticise. We are unshackled now and we can say exactly what we think
about what the executive is doing. What is opposition going to look
like? You of the largest party in opposition but are you going solo?
Is this about the Ulster Unionist Party's opposition strategy with 16
members, or is it about forming a united opposition with the other
biggest party in opposition, namely the SDLP?
It is not a secret that we've had discussions with the SDLP and we
will continue to have discussions with the SDLP but we will not be
rushed into anything. It has taken the DUP and Sinn Fein nine years to
get their relationship to the point where you are able to say they have
got their act together so we're going to take time to see how we go.
We have formed a team of spokespeople across the whole piece.
We expect the SDLP will do the same thing. But at the Goodwood make
sense of the various spokespeople started looking to see there are
areas where we can cooperate and develop alternative policies.
You would like it to be a joined up approach? Would you be the Leader of
the Opposition and would Colum Eastwood be the deputy leader?
That is the sort of line which which is not helpful.
It is not bad from your point of view but maybe not by him.
I have gone out of my way to say to him that you are the leader of the
SDLP. You're not the deputy leader or anything. If we're going to work
together it will be as coal equals on this.
I many times have you sat down and talked to Colum Eastwood about the
possibilities? What is the plan? How close do you think you are due being
able to sign up to a joint approach? We're not discussing signing up to
anything formal at this time. We have the spokespeople hopefully
starting to talk to each other. I will continue to build on a
relationship with Colum Eastwood. We sat together for a while with the
mandate. I like his style. I like Ricky is going and I like back to 30
wants Northern Ireland to work. His motivation for that is different
from mine obviously because he aspires to a united Ireland but that
motivation is no bar to working with him to ensure that the health
service gets fixed, that we create more high earning jobs, that we do
all the things that we aspire that says Northern Ireland does actually
work. Let's be honest. Wouldn't a combined
opposition speak with a much longer boys spent two positions of 16 and
13 respectively. -- much louder voice. If you're
saying I want to give your alternative logic says you want to
try and present a cross community alternative. So I will aspire to
that but what I am saying is we will not be rushed or pushed into it.
But you need to get on with it because tomorrow is the first full
day of proper business. They know is that what they are
doing and already the opposition is not quite clear.
It is only been a number of days. The DUP and Sinn Fein have an
working on their relationship for nine years. So I think we can take a
little bit of time to get this right.
Let's talk about the committees. A lot of the opposition, the opposing
should take face. There was a real possibility in this mandate that if
the DUP and Sinn Fein work as closely together as they seem to be
suggesting they want to, and controversial issues will be dealt
with in private between themselves and by the time it filters down to
the committees it is already been agreed.
That is speculation. We will have to wait and see.
It is informed speculation. I tell you what is possible. The DUP and
Sinn Fein being themselves alone in Government reduction it work better
than what we have had over the last nine years and if you believe in
country first, party second, which I do, then what I have done, that is
the result, is a good thing. Even if it is not a great thing for the
Ulster Unionist Party. If these parties deliver positive outcomes
for our people in the way they have not done over the last two mandates,
of course that is a good thing. Even by saying that you're shooting
yourself in the foot. You're saying is probably better the people in
Northern Ireland for Sinn Fein and the DUP to work together towards
some kind of agreed policy for the benefit of everybody in the country
and pushing you to one side. That is effectively what you are suggesting.
That is the mandate they were given and our job is to scrutinise how
they deliver on that. It might be difficult to do that
with the committee system the way it is because you have intentionally
committees were a DUP chair and step easy chair could protect a Sinn Fein
minister and vice versa. I cheer for the last four years. Like all the
other committees there are 11 members. Four of them were from the
DUP and three from Sinn Fein so if they wanted to at any point they
could have closed down. It was different in the previous mandate
because they were not working so closely together. With respect,
there were times in that committee where you
could see them eyeballing each other across the table and it was a clear
signal, let's close this down. And it may well be that happens much
more in the new mandate and the poor Sinn Fein and the DUP together have
a majority on every single committee including your own committee.
Yes. It is the same again. Four and three. Seven of the 11 on the
executive office committee. If they want to close it down on
committees they don't stop that scrutiny they can do that
effectively. You are to this. That is the mandate
that they have been given and the committees are not the only way we
will bring forward switch me of another nation. Would do it in the
chamber, media, whatever means we think is appropriate.
Would he put together some kind of programme for opposition which
people can compare and contrast? We've got a document now where we've
been circulated with a draft framework for Government.
What you are talking about is the second document in a series of
three. What they promise was a framework and that was supposed to
be ready for the 6th of May and use over two weeks to produce a draft
programme for Government which should now be finished and out for
consultation leading to the final... They publish the first one and that
is the framework. They will consult on that then draw up a draft
programme for Government, then consult on that and then finally at
the end of the year publish a document. You read paragraph 61 of
the agreement and they have failed to deliver on that agreement.
People at home might think, that -- had on them. A lot of people want
things done differently so if they manage to get their act together
they may agree with you that it could be better for everybody in
Northern Ireland. If that is the case, you are stuffed.
They are putting a lot of store on this so-called fresh start agreement
on what I'm saying to you, one of the core commitments in paragraph 61
is already a clear failure. They have failed to deliver what they
promise. In terms of an alternative programme for Government be not only
published a manifesto ahead of the 5th of May, we published eight other
documents, a vision document and seven specific policy documents so
the bones of an alternative programme for Government are already
there. Before I bring in Colum Eastwood and
Sam, you being quite magnanimous and we will see how that pans out in the
chamber when you get the wind in your back is the official Leader of
the Opposition but someone watching who is a young Unionist who fancies
a career in politics and can't decide between Ulster Unionists and
the DUP, why would he or she choose the Ulster Unionists over the DUP
with a DUP is in Government, seems to be unassailable Andras the having
to accept that if they do a good job that is grand by me?
If you That is what all editions are all
about. We have a credo ended his country
first, party second that individual bird.
Maybe you need to rethink that? Without that you would not have the
Belfast agreement in 1998. Let whomever weather DUP were on those
big the Asians. They were on the other side of the crash barriers. We
have done is a game by creating an official opposition. It is the right
time. Is not great for the Ulster Unionist Party.
Since 1998 you're gone down and down and down and dwindled and you said
yourself you went back to 16 seeds which could not be considered to be
successful. -- seats. It is over four years since we've
had 16 MLAs up at Stormont so our capacity to do the job is greatly
enhanced even if we did not grow the numbers in the way I had hoped.
Thank you. Stay with us because I want to ring in camp two and Sam.
What you make of the thing to back way things are shaping up between
this cohesive approach between the DUP and Sinn Fein and then, and as
yet unclear, opposition? I don't believe it is a cohesive
approach by the DUP and Sinn Fein. It appears to be much more amicable.
It looked very nice this week in various nice things were done in a
nice way but at the bottom about what we have is the DUP saying it
will be our way or no way. And Sinn Fein for pragmatic and no doubt
magnanimous and reasons which mean because they have invested so much
in getting into a peace process and maintaining it, have decided to
allow that to pass. There are a lot of people who think this has only
gone as far as it has an done as well as it has because Sinn Fein
have button-down lip and there are a lot of people in Sinn Fein who are
not happy about that. As I imagine there are people in Mike Nesbitt's
support base who are not happy he has been as magnanimous as he has
been today. This is the difficulty for both those parties. The
difficulty of politics here in general that if you try and make
peace, if you tried about in your lip you are offending people in your
own support base. It is intriguing situation because
were so many years we have had people saying we want constructive
politics. We want people to work together and then people begin to
work together and it throws up new challenges and difficulties.
I think people could be forgiven for being confused because we coming out
of an election winner DUP were saying vote for us to stop Martin
McGuinness said they were pushing that message themselves. Now they
have changed that and realise they are to work together and they have
been forced to do that much closer than they would have had to do if
there was not an opposition facing them. I think Mike Nesbitt has
struck gold with a good tone in that there is a lot of criticism of the
SDLP and the Ulster Unionists that they are just opposed to everything
and they need to see this as a long game. They are in opposition for
five years. There will be issues where they oppose the Government
can't just be seen as Jim Allister with extra seas. They need to be
able to present something which could form a Government at some
stage and I think they are wise actually to work together where they
need to but also to keep their separate identities are not be in a
position where something happens in the SDLP over a macho support --
over a March, and Mike Nesbitt is having to answer for it, and vice
versa with Colum Eastwood. Can they keep them all the line?
They have that situation over the community centre where the DUP do
not want public funding to go towards that because the names of
two IRA men from the 1920s would be on the gates. Is that an example of
the kind of events that could derail the collective responsibility around
the executive table? Collected responsibility and the
ability to make common cause in the opposition are rule depended on
events and a series of events coming up now which are called the marching
season. It will test Mike and it would text -- I was fascinated by
the thought that two parties in opposition, who may be able to
proceed in a way and build links between each other, or maybe will be
torn apart by the same things that have torn apart politics here
overall these years. Nonetheless it is progress.
I did not think it was possible and did not think they should go into
opposition. Events pose big challenges but if
you believe in it and you wanted to work you will get through events.
If you hold your nerve through the marching season.
I think a lot of people say that one of the problems previously when the
Ulster Unionists were at the heart of Government where the
interpersonal relationships which were not great. I am confident I can
build a good relationship with Colum Eastwood.
We will see and we will give a close eye.
I'm you will. Thank you very much. We will hear more in a moment or two
but let's pause and take a look back at the political week in 60 seconds.
As the football teams from those parts of the island got ready for
the euro is the Deputy First Minister was also on foreign soil as
he visited World War I battlefields. I am out of my comfort zone here
today. But that is what leaders do. I think if you are not -- a leader
you have to lead from the front. 100 anniversary of the battle
doctrine. The new Health Minister lifted the lifetime ban on gay men
donating blood here. I have been opposed for eight days.
I took the decision based on the evidence I had on front of being
will stop a comedian to go on a politician as they battle to win
hearts and minds over Europe. What signal does it sends to the
world? Surely humanity moves forward by working together not by putting
up more borders? Do you want to be able to decide the
laws of your own country by electing politicians?
Let's have a final word. Just a little flavour there of Thursday
night's debate between Eddie Izzard and Sammy Wilson. Does that can
exchange help people to make their minds up as an off a lot of people I
meet say they still cannot work out which way to vote?
Alternately that probably helps the remaining camp because when it comes
to the bit in the final week of the election, as we saw in Scotland,
people are more likely to plump for the evil they know.
Do you agree with that broadly? I thought it was great to see him
and Sammy having to be polite, faced with a man wearing lipstick and a
pink beret. I think you did not know what to
make of him. The claims never to oppose them before.
John Major got stuck into the Brexit campaigners calling them deceitful
and squalid. And that is what makes most people's
minds are piping. Look at the people who are for each side and go for
which way. The Brexit group do not appeal to an off a lot of people
that the debate here is largely decided by original politics. Most
Nationalists will bow to stay in and most Unionists narrowly perhaps will
vote come out. A final word? The Government has
been getting involved in the last week or so. They are alarmed about
this. The group persuade those nationalistic, or Unionists could
act against it. Thank you very much indeed. That is
it from all David Davis will talk to is about
the snoopers' charter, but that interview with John Major on the
Andrew Marr Show, earlier we showed you in talking about the deceit of
the Leave campaign, this is in talking about Boris Johnson's
prospect of leading the party. If they continued to divide the
Conservative Party, as they are doing at the present time, and if
Boris has the laudable ambition, because it is laudable to become
Prime Minister, he will find, if he achieves that, that he will not have
the loyalty of the party he divided. Iain Duncan Smith was serially
disloyal in the 1990s. When he became leader, he was surprised that
no-one was loyal to him. Boris should learn from that.
What was the purpose of his interview this morning?
I guess number ten asked him to do it, and being a loyal supporter of a
Tory party, he would do that. I guess he was trying to reduce the
credibility of the Leave campaign's claim. Some irony when you consider
the most incredible claim has been from George Osborne, the Treasury,
in terms of his forecasts, and even what John Major said, I was his last
defender in the Commons, the numbers bandying around.
He said for example this controversial ?350 million was one
third of that. That is half the net contribution. He said industries
would face 10% levies. The car industry would, but most of
the others would be up to 5%. He was not being very
straightforward with the numbers. Were you surprised how personal the
attacks on Boris well. We know he has long hated Iain
Duncan Smith. Understandable. But saying in the
hands of Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, IDS, the NHS would be like
a hamster in a room with a pattern. He was trashing the Tory brand.
A harsh attack. I don't think it was very wise.
One of the problems both sides of this campaign have had is it is too
personalised. The public don't like it. After the
23rd, we had to pull the party together.
With that sort of attack, it is a bad idea.
Sam. Let me put it this way. Whatever the result, things for the
Tories will never be the same again for the rest of this Parliament.
It will be very hard. Clearly with a working majority of about 18, hard
to get contentious the station through, the biggest area of danger
for David Cameron. He will be a zombie Prime Minister, he can't get
it through the Commons, and the Lords is a different matter where
legislation will get stuck. You saw the kinds of things in the
Queen's Speech. With the exception of the data Bill, I can't see any of
the bills will be that radical when they get passed into law. So I think
there will be a successful coup after June the 23rd, that seems
unlikely. Even if it is a vote to Leave.
That could change things. I think David Cameron would go within his
own time. In the case of a remain vote, there are up to 20 MPs who
bitterly disliked David Cameron. I don't think that number has
dramatically increased solely as a result of the referendum campaign.
There is a safety valve, the leadership election which will
happen possibly sooner than you think.
There may not be an immediate coup even if the vote is to Remain.
The keyword or words, zombie parliaments, there are anything
between 20-50 MPs deeply disillusioned with the Prime
Minister. They have a taste for revolt. The
Government majority is derisory. This Government could now find it
very difficult to get anything major through this potential zombie
parliament. That is absolutely true. On the
matter of a coup, there are a number of mischief makers within the Tory
ranks who don't mind if a coup succeeds or fails, they feel the
Labour opposition is so weak, they have the luxury of doing this.
I think the numbers are lower than you think. I would say 20, not more
than that. That is enough, given the Government
majority. These are the ones that hate the
regime as it were. You have another group. The problem
is not if there is a Brexit victory, but if there is a very narrow Remain
victory. A lot of those wanting Brexit will
feel they have been cheated. The ?9 million spent on the
leaflets, all of that, they will be difficult to manage.
This is a Government that has found it hard to get its budget through.
Almost unprecedented, it lost most of the major parts of the budget
unveiled in March. Would it not be even more difficult if it is a vote
to Remain, but small, to get its business through except the
noncontroversial. To say it is difficult for the
future is a description of the past ten months, they had two H a great
answer their planned pensions reform amongst other things.
The potential American trade deal. Most recently, and prior to the
referendum. Things will become difficult
afterwards. David Cameron will end up leading my kind of Government, it
won't do very much. The basic strategic stuff. What the founders
in America intended. The one bit of optimism for the Tories, it picks up
on David's point, I wouldn't underestimate how many Tory MPs want
is referendum done with, that includes absolutely committed
leaders who don't think much of David Cameron.
Interviewing Johnny Mercer, he wants it over, you can tell from his
demeanour. And he wouldn't look at me but there
may be another reason! We don't need to go that!
Let me ask you. Given the kind of Government our panel are talking
about, it is already difficult for the Government to get things done.
Even more difficult after the referendum I would suggest if it is
Remain by a small majority. Does that give you hope for your
continued opposition to the investigatory Powers act for the
police and intelligence services? Taking up on the American view, look
what happened with tax credits. There were about 40 people opposing
it, only two voting against it. It went to the House of Lords, got
knocked back. The Government knew there was a looming rebellion.
That will be the message of the future.
A lot of that pressure play. The investigative powers act, large
parts of it will be flayed by the House of Lords, the Government will
concede. That is the way it will happen.
Whether it is the approval mechanisms or the data gathered or
who has access, those will be challenged.
All those things will now be more at risk at least after the referendum.
Maybe why they are brushing it through in the next few days.
I would suggest looking at the campaign, two and a half weeks to
go, in the week up to the Whitsun bank holiday, Remain one that, and
overwhelming economic amount of stuff coming out.
In the weeks since leading up to this weekend, Leave have probably
done better. The interviews on Sky.
Still all to play for. Leave goes into this week probably with a
spring in its step. I think that is right. One of the
mistakes of the Remain campaign was at two different points, to feel
like they were heading for victory. Once in the aftermath of the visit
by President Barack Obama. They thought it was a big moment that
would produce a push. A couple of weeks ago, they sensed
that polls were going their way, in private conversations they thought
they had got it in the bag. That created hubris and a problem.
They did not see coming the Australian style points system
attacked by Vote Leave last weekend, setting out plans. They thought it
would be a policy freak referendum campaign. That pulled the debate
back into the Leave side. Is Leave thinking it can win?
Privately, I think they are beginning to think they have a 50-50
chance, maybe more. Previously, privately, a lot would admit they
felt pessimistic. I definitely sense a shift. If you
look at what happened in Scotland, it was around this time use saw
polls saw an advantage -- seeing an advantage for independence.
Still three weeks to go, nobody is counting their chickens.
I am reliably informed Leave is ahead but that is embargoed so I
didn't mention it. But they still don't think they are
losing? How big a victory do they need in
order to put the question to bed and preserve the Prime Minister.
At least 55-45? That would do it. The fact they
deployed John Major shows they are worried.
John Major was the nuclear weapons. Lose or win, yes or no?
Brexit, a small margin. You heard it here first. Just to
mention, as well as the debate we have been discussing, I will be
interviewing leading figures from both sides of
Starting tomorrow at 7.30 on BBC One, with Shadow Foreign
Followed on Wednesday by Chancellor George Osborne.
And then it's the turn of Leave campaigners Nigel Farage
I hope you can join me, it should be fun.
And, of course, we're back here next week as usual at 11 o'clock
Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest on the EU referendum campaigns. Andrew is joined by John Prescott and Conservative MP David Davis. There is also commentary from political journalists Janan Ganesh, Sam Coates and Isabel Oakeshott.