13/04/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


13/04/2014

The latest political news, interviews and debate in Northern Ireland.


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Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for

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their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'

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time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate

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time gets underway. In a Sunday issues at stake on May 22nd with

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senior party figures from the Conservatives, Labour, Liberal

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Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever we'll be discussing the week ahead

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And coming up here: New jobs, commentators.

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And coming up here: New jobs, economic growth and the Giro - we'll

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hear from the Enterprise minister, Arlene Foster.

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And we discuss the symbolism of Martin McGuinness in Windsor with

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the Victims' Commissioner, Kathryn Stone.

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the Victims' Commissioner, Kathryn newspapers which some claim are

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politically slanted and not impartial about informing people of

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local services. So all that to come between now and

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quarter to four and for the next thirty minutes or so we'll be

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debating the European elections. Here in the studio we have Syed

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Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard

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Howitt, chair of the Labour group of MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader

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of the Lib Dems in Europe, and Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of

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communications. Welcome to you all. In a moment, all four will give us

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their opening pitch for the elections. A little earlier they

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drew lots to decide who'll go first. And that privilege goes to Syed.

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Before that, though, here's a quick reminder of what all the fuss is

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about. The vote to choose members of the

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European Parliament takes place on Thursday the 22nd of May. The same

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day as local elections are held in England and Northern Ireland. The UK

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sends 73 England and Northern Ireland. The UK

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sends NTP is to Brussels. And the vote is a form of proportional

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representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.

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What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has

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grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or

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reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have

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been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers,

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banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling.

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Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe

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needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to

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change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of

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the British people and in-out referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems

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will not and UKIP simply cannot. Only the Conservatives will offer

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the three yards, with Conservative MEPs working alongside a

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conservative Prime Minister. For, really is and above all a

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referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. Your choice is simple. If you think

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Britain is better off in Europe, vote for the Liberal Democrats. The

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Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, fighting to keep Britain in Europe

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and in work. There is nothing patriotic about UKIP's desire to

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pull-out. That is playing Russian roulette with Britain's economy and

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jobs. The Conservatives are flirting with exit and Labour lacks the

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courage to speak up. Thought Liberal Democrat on May the 22nd to say in

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Europe for jobs and security. Sarah Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from

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Labour. The European Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from

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about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.

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Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to

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help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that

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bills are brought down for good. Labour believes in reform in Europe,

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but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain's

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prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put

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British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick

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O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an

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era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project

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designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old

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hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people

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European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed

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out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.

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That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.

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Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the

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selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock

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the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We

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can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain

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wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power

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and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain

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leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.

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We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain

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We feel that a UKIP win in those example to lead European nation

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states back to free assembly again. Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that

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many Tory voters will vote you clip to keep you honest, to keep your

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feet to the fire? Whatever you think of the European Parliament or the

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EU, the fact is that the European Parliament as equal power with the

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28 governments of the EU. When David Cameron delivered the first cut to

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the EU budget, the first ever cut, he needed a strong team of

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Conservative MEPs working alongside him. But many of your supporters

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will vote for UKIP for the reasons I gave. Many will vote Liberal

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Democrat. Not very many. Many of our supporters will vote for us because

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we are the only party trying to change the EU

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we are the only party trying to have offered renegotiation and a

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referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no

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idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer

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that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United

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States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the

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referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no

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confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read

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negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at

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the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of

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demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to

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leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not

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changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to

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perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a

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say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was

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deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market.

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Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why

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can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First

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of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no

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apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of

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Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and

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business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they

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probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees

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in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is

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necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron

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says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity

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rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out

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vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there

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was a proposal to change powers. Why wait? This is based on a series of

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reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent

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about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them

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forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic

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backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable

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to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed

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Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.

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He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be

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a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will

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have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg

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gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the

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Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can

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say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,

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you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that

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is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this

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morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster

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for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick

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Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that

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is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is

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essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the

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EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative

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voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all

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over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or

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out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote

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for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country, it

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may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.

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We are a member of the EU and to immigration, an important issue.

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rules say that with a few caveats, our fellow EU citizens are free to

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come here if they want. Why can we not just accept that? Britain has a

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proud record when it comes to immigration. We have been open to

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people across the world for centuries. But we welcome people who

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come to our country to contribute to pay taxes and two wards are a

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society positively. But there are three real concerns that we have to

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address. The first one is numbers, and secondly people who may come

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here not to work but for benefits, and thirdly, getting a hang of the

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numbers. I think it is shameful that only this week the office for

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National said that they did not collect sufficient figures under a

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Labour government. 350,000 extra people came in and they did not

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count the numbers. That is the size of a city like Cardiff. That is

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shameful. 350,000 came from all over the place. Do you accept the free

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movement of peoples within the EU? I accept and am open to people who

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want to come here and contribute. In the same way... Do you accept the

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free movement of peoples within the EU? In our manifesto, we have said

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it is an issue for reform. We have to make sure that people are coming

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here to work and contribute positively, not simply to come here

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and take advantage of the system. I will tell you what else is

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shameful. What is shameful is David Cameron making a pledge to the

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British people on an issue that they really care about, to bring net

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immigration down to the tens of thousands a year, having no means of

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fulfilling that pledge. And we see now it is back up to 212,000 a year

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because we have no volume control and no quality control from

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immigration from our neighbours. And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP

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address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You

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do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single

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member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an

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MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of

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-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that

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worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not

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object to bilateral agreements with wealthy, retired people. Why do not

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countries with similar living standards to us. France, the

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Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to

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join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of

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which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of

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free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm

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saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million

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British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right

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to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street.

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You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants

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have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than

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they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses

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were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim

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benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that

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they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for

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more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A

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spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and

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Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party

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that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept

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it is a mistake and I apologise. We make a firm commitment for new EU

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states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the

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Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration

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was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over

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again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on,

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Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2

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million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you

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didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The

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Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is

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trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't

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count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for

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people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the

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habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't

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come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the

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country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say

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it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and

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multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They

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are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality

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control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.

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In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big

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businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool

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place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to

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Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think

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Spain and pour tu ghal health care? Do you really think

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situation, are going to turn their backs on British property owners

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with wealth? -- Portugal. They might not wanting pensioners to use their

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health service. Pensioners often come back to Britain to use the

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health service. You have shown it represents wealthy people's

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interests. A second Conservative Party. Hang on a minute... Blue

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collar wages were down. They want it character for the National Health

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Service, have cuts that go farther and comprehensive education. This is

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a debate on the wider politics between Conservatives and UKIP and

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Labour will... You can't both talk time. UKIP - they haven't thought it

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through, thousand they will have trade access in the EU, hasn't

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thought how they will have trade deals that the Liberal Democrats

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support, like with the United States: Would you have a cap on

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non-EU immigrants? We are not in favour of a cap. No cap on either.

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No. Well it is a target. It is a moving feast, as it were. Would you

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have a limit on non-EU limits? We have limits on quality. We have

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people who are skilled migrants coming in. Lip its? . By quality,

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not by quantity. -- Limits. How do you do that? We need to move

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on to foreign affairs. Should we pool more sovereignty to

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give the European Union more clout in foreign and defence matters? I'm

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Labour's defence and foreign affairs spokesperson. No we don't need to

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pull more powers into Europe. As we undertake this live debate there are

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guns being fired in Ukraine as we speak. Europe is facing, for the

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first time, since the speak. Europe is facing, for the

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Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening

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peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come

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together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With

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Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the

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sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling

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Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour

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doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows

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someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening

:19:43.:19:46.

peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they

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admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how

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Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We

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don't admire Putin as a leader... Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage

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said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies

:20:08.:20:10.

Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly

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but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while

:20:17.:20:21.

carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin

:20:22.:20:25.

over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire

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what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy

:20:30.:20:34.

is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria,

:20:35.:20:39.

and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to

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keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign

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Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this

:20:53.:20:55.

issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that

:20:56.:21:00.

Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless

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foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very

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important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention

:21:11.:21:18.

in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU.

:21:19.:21:24.

Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign

:21:25.:21:31.

up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP

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opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was

:21:37.:21:41.

against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal

:21:42.:21:48.

on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.

:21:49.:21:53.

We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other

:21:54.:21:58.

people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin

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is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have

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to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and

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in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,

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who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is

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important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said

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that the idea of an EU Army was, "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not

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true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and

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controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European

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Parliament has said that the the President of the European

:22:40.:22:46.

majority of MEPs want the EU to have "deployable troops." He is not

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speaking for me or Liberal Democrats. The EU does not and will

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not have an army. Our defence is mainly shaped through NATO. He is

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President of the Parliament What we must do is to get equipment which

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can operate together. We waste an awful lot of our spending in Europe

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because we duplicate equipment. We don't get the bang for our bucks

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that we should. It is a useful role for the EU, to get equipment working

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together. That doesn't make sense. You say military equipment, a NATO

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job. No, the EU, there is a kind of dimension of the EU members of NATO,

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in working together on a common quument o o so they can talk to each

:23:26.:23:30.

other -- on common equipment, so they can talk to each other. The EU

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has a role but not an army. So a European defence agency, that helps

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our defence industries and those jobs are extremely important and

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would be threatened if the Conservatives and UKIP took us out

:23:42.:23:47.

of Europe but it is 100 years since the start of the fist world war.

:23:48.:23:51.

Remember that Europe was set up to try to get a secure peace within

:23:52.:23:55.

Europe T succeeded. Now look on Ukraine but also on the southern

:23:56.:23:59.

borders to the Arab Spring countries in North Africa. It is more

:24:00.:24:04.

important than ever that we work to keep keep peace and stability on our

:24:05.:24:08.

borders. Can I say to Syed and the Conservative MEPs. You talk about

:24:09.:24:12.

the three Rs, I have a fourth, retreat. If you take us out of the

:24:13.:24:16.

European Union, it will be the worse retreat by Britain since Gallipoli.

:24:17.:24:23.

Let him answer If he wants answers -- the British Parliament is the

:24:24.:24:25.

right place with a -- the British Parliament is the

:24:26.:24:28.

Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I

:24:29.:24:35.

quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David

:24:36.:24:38.

Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than

:24:39.:24:42.

Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in

:24:43.:24:46.

the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times

:24:47.:24:49.

when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to

:24:50.:24:53.

cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are

:24:54.:24:58.

not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear

:24:59.:25:03.

that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.

:25:04.:25:08.

Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through

:25:09.:25:14.

the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from

:25:15.:25:17.

the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and

:25:18.:25:23.

not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of... ?

:25:24.:25:27.

I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is

:25:28.:25:30.

the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we

:25:31.:25:33.

work with our European partners, sometimes we work with our

:25:34.:25:37.

non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work

:25:38.:25:43.

together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country

:25:44.:25:49.

about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't

:25:50.:25:55.

the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts? The

:25:56.:26:02.

trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our

:26:03.:26:08.

expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have

:26:09.:26:12.

actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but

:26:13.:26:16.

unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to

:26:17.:26:21.

cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies

:26:22.:26:27.

I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any

:26:28.:26:33.

other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes. We

:26:34.:26:39.

voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups

:26:40.:26:44.

haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.

:26:45.:26:48.

Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.

:26:49.:26:54.

You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we

:26:55.:26:58.

don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your

:26:59.:27:01.

attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your

:27:02.:27:05.

there, you are saying we don't turn up You are in the building and claim

:27:06.:27:09.

the allowances. You are not an MEP, UKIP are so ashamed of what their

:27:10.:27:12.

MEPs have done in Brussels, they didn't field a sitting MEP for

:27:13.:27:18.

today's debate. I think each party decides who it wishes to field. I

:27:19.:27:22.

have the honour of being the UKIP representative. I would say by going

:27:23.:27:27.

in the past few weeks, xeeming to me saying - we are sick of the others.

:27:28.:27:35.

-- people saying to me. : We are quite excited. Can I ask Patrick

:27:36.:27:40.

O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord and his party is strong in the polls

:27:41.:27:45.

today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't you also struck a chord with hip

:27:46.:27:50.

crasscy. Two of your MEPs were jailed for expenses and benefits'

:27:51.:27:55.

fraud. Two more asked to pay back ?37,000 for using European funds.

:27:56.:27:59.

Nigel Farage has boosted about getting ?2 million in expenses and

:28:00.:28:04.

he went on to employ his wife as a secretarial allowance after telling

:28:05.:28:07.

other members not to People who do wrong and break the law, go to ja. I

:28:08.:28:13.

have no time. -- go to jail. People who spend money they are not

:28:14.:28:17.

entitled to should pay it back and that's right. But what UKIP does and

:28:18.:28:22.

the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the allowances they are given to pursue

:28:23.:28:26.

the political agenda they put up when elected which is to get Britain

:28:27.:28:29.

out of this superstate. Instead of using it for parliamentary work.

:28:30.:28:36.

Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We were the first British political

:28:37.:28:40.

party to have independent audits of our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way

:28:41.:28:45.

before the expenses crisis blew up. The Maria Miller scandal has of

:28:46.:28:49.

before the expenses crisis blew up. course hit David Cameron and the

:28:50.:28:51.

Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my

:28:52.:28:57.

own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been

:28:58.:29:00.

charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot

:29:01.:29:04.

lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We

:29:05.:29:09.

had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking

:29:10.:29:13.

ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people

:29:14.:29:19.

aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply. We

:29:20.:29:24.

can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a

:29:25.:29:27.

Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say

:29:28.:29:32.

they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have

:29:33.:29:39.

burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully.

:29:40.:29:44.

Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU's

:29:45.:29:50.

financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the

:29:51.:29:56.

financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that

:29:57.:30:02.

all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at

:30:03.:30:06.

the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge

:30:07.:30:09.

of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get

:30:10.:30:14.

enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal

:30:15.:30:18.

Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George

:30:19.:30:22.

Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is

:30:23.:30:26.

properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do

:30:27.:30:31.

that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will

:30:32.:30:35.

sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about

:30:36.:30:40.

?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. 5

:30:41.:30:46.

billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.

:30:47.:30:50.

I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to

:30:51.:30:55.

ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our

:30:56.:30:59.

money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led

:31:00.:31:01.

Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to

:31:02.:31:05.

have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between...

:31:06.:31:15.

Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He

:31:16.:31:22.

is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to

:31:23.:31:26.

help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want

:31:27.:31:29.

the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party

:31:30.:31:34.

and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour

:31:35.:31:40.

victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the

:31:41.:31:47.

future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice

:31:48.:31:52.

Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the

:31:53.:31:55.

commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,

:31:56.:32:03.

if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the

:32:04.:32:07.

fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has

:32:08.:32:12.

led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world. It

:32:13.:32:15.

is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about

:32:16.:32:19.

the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner

:32:20.:32:23.

for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common

:32:24.:32:27.

agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make

:32:28.:32:32.

Europe more democratic and open. But against the rise of Brazil and

:32:33.:32:39.

China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more

:32:40.:32:44.

action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?

:32:45.:32:49.

No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional

:32:50.:32:54.

matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe

:32:55.:32:59.

progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We

:33:00.:33:06.

need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the

:33:07.:33:11.

EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on

:33:12.:33:15.

that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because

:33:16.:33:19.

the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In

:33:20.:33:27.

some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not

:33:28.:33:35.

sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is

:33:36.:33:38.

a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on

:33:39.:33:45.

the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want

:33:46.:33:51.

to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in

:33:52.:33:55.

national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big

:33:56.:33:58.

challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a

:33:59.:34:06.

good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did

:34:07.:34:12.

not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a

:34:13.:34:15.

success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle,

:34:16.:34:22.

the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are

:34:23.:34:29.

not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not

:34:30.:34:33.

on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the

:34:34.:34:37.

future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners

:34:38.:34:41.

with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious. I'd

:34:42.:34:46.

tell you what, can I just say... Would we be Norway? We would be

:34:47.:34:50.

stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the

:34:51.:34:56.

Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our

:34:57.:35:00.

enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the

:35:01.:35:05.

economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest

:35:06.:35:09.

exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and

:35:10.:35:14.

services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you

:35:15.:35:20.

something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day

:35:21.:35:23.

after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody

:35:24.:35:30.

from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about

:35:31.:35:34.

goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have

:35:35.:35:38.

to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let

:35:39.:35:44.

me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not

:35:45.:35:52.

looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get

:35:53.:35:55.

anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your

:35:56.:36:06.

irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the

:36:07.:36:09.

reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve

:36:10.:36:12.

anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the

:36:13.:36:15.

doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a

:36:16.:36:19.

sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not

:36:20.:36:22.

pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we

:36:23.:36:28.

could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we

:36:29.:36:31.

would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But

:36:32.:36:37.

overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not

:36:38.:36:43.

sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform

:36:44.:36:46.

but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that.

:36:47.:36:51.

Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking

:36:52.:36:59.

outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an

:37:00.:37:06.

inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are

:37:07.:37:12.

putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to

:37:13.:37:17.

have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I

:37:18.:37:21.

think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg

:37:22.:37:26.

will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage.

:37:27.:37:29.

It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say

:37:30.:37:32.

goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics

:37:33.:37:35.

Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes,

:37:36.:37:35.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. After the gloom

:37:36.:37:48.

and doom of austerity, is the Northern Ireland economy finally on

:37:49.:37:52.

the turn? The biggest ever job creation project, backed by Invest

:37:53.:37:56.

NI, was announced on Thursday. The Enterprise minister Arlene

:37:57.:37:59.

Foster joins me live from her constituency.

:38:00.:38:03.

And a right royal affair - with the focus on Sinn Fein's participation

:38:04.:38:06.

in the state visit of President Higgins to Britain, victims of IRA

:38:07.:38:15.

violence say they feel forgotten. -- some victims.

:38:16.:38:18.

The Victims' Commissioner Kathryn Stone is with me.

:38:19.:38:21.

And joining me to discuss all of that and more are commentators Paul

:38:22.:38:34.

McFadden and Professor Rick Wilford. Creating a vibrant economy was the

:38:35.:38:37.

number one priority of the Executive, now it looks like the

:38:38.:38:41.

strategy could be paying dividends. How do we sustain the recovery? The

:38:42.:38:46.

enterprise minister Arlene Foster joins me now. 1000 jobs announced

:38:47.:38:51.

for Belfast last week. Nobody would suggest that is not good news, but

:38:52.:38:57.

are these the high end well-paid positions we need to be securing for

:38:58.:39:05.

the local economy in future? I think what you see through the jobs

:39:06.:39:09.

announced last week is the continuation of our desire to create

:39:10.:39:13.

more jobs for people in Northern Ireland, and they came out of the

:39:14.:39:17.

jobs fund, which was created at the start of the recession to make sure

:39:18.:39:23.

that we had an appropriate level of jobs available. The jobs fund was to

:39:24.:39:28.

try and help companies create jobs, they didn't necessarily have to be

:39:29.:39:32.

high-value jobs, but you will see us now moving to a situation of higher

:39:33.:39:38.

end jobs and indeed we have been bringing in those higher end jobs as

:39:39.:39:42.

well in the jobs fund, because our priority as well as building a

:39:43.:39:46.

vibrant economy is to rebalance the economy and bring a higher level of

:39:47.:39:53.

job creation into Northern Ireland. We saw an interesting contribution

:39:54.:39:58.

from the new chairman of the CBI, he said our higher energy costs are

:39:59.:40:05.

undermining our competitiveness. I do except that the higher energy

:40:06.:40:09.

costs are very much a challenge, and the are a number of things we need

:40:10.:40:11.

to do to tackle them. the are a number of things we need

:40:12.:40:17.

huge amber -- huge constraint on our energy system caused by the fact

:40:18.:40:23.

that we are not able to have the North-South interconnector. That

:40:24.:40:25.

costs the consumer in Northern Ireland ?7 million per animal, and

:40:26.:40:30.

overall it costs ?30 million on the island. -- per annum. At present we

:40:31.:40:38.

have occurred straight on our system, and religiously it taken off

:40:39.:40:44.

our system. -- we need to see that constraint taken of our system. That

:40:45.:40:53.

ties in with what the new chairman of the CBI was saying, he says the

:40:54.:40:56.

CBI wants to see that second North-South interconnector is

:40:57.:41:01.

happening as soon as possible. When can we expect it? As I understand it

:41:02.:41:11.

planning has been -- a planning application has been put into our

:41:12.:41:14.

system, and then there is a similar one going into the Republic of

:41:15.:41:19.

Ireland's planning process, so we want to make sure we can assist in

:41:20.:41:23.

any way to make sure that that goes through as quickly as possible,

:41:24.:41:26.

because the sooner we have the North-South interconnector, the

:41:27.:41:31.

faster that those savings can be passed onto consumers, both and

:41:32.:41:36.

business. Are you satisfied that all parties in the Executive are

:41:37.:41:40.

committed to making that happen? There is some dispute as I

:41:41.:41:43.

understand it as to whether or not the interconnector should be

:41:44.:41:46.

overground or underground, and underground is more expensive of

:41:47.:41:52.

course. I do understand that those living close to the root of the

:41:53.:41:55.

interconnector will have concerns, that some of

:41:56.:41:59.

interconnector will have concerns, that they want the interconnector

:42:00.:42:02.

pot underground but that again would add to costs. Some estimates believe

:42:03.:42:06.

it would be as much as three to five times as expensive to put in place,

:42:07.:42:12.

and any cost, and this is something I don't think that people understand

:42:13.:42:18.

fully, any cost that is incurred in relation to the North-South

:42:19.:42:20.

interconnector is then passed on to the consumer, so if that were to

:42:21.:42:24.

happen it would be passed onto the consumer, and as well as that there

:42:25.:42:28.

is some technical problems aligned with the underground laying of

:42:29.:42:32.

cables for such a long distance as well. So we believe the best way is

:42:33.:42:36.

to get on with this North-South interconnector and certainly we

:42:37.:42:39.

would hope all of the parties in the Executive support that view. Any

:42:40.:42:45.

further delay of course could simply compound the situation that we are

:42:46.:42:49.

in, it could work of further investment. What some commentators

:42:50.:42:53.

have been saying is that data centres are hugely dependent for

:42:54.:42:58.

example on energy and energy use. And the price of energy matters a

:42:59.:43:01.

lot to them. That is why at Microsoft and Google, high tech

:43:02.:43:06.

employers, simply cannot make the numbers add up. That is why we not

:43:07.:43:12.

seeing investment companies like that. They are more likely to be

:43:13.:43:17.

looking at the corporation tax issue as opposed to the energy costs

:43:18.:43:21.

issue. We believe that is why we have seen them locate in places like

:43:22.:43:27.

Dublin, and indeed an enterprise zone has now been allocated as a

:43:28.:43:31.

pilot enterprise zone in Coleraine, and we're hopeful, in fact we know

:43:32.:43:36.

there is going to be a data centre in Coleraine, the cause we invested

:43:37.:43:43.

in the transatlantic link between America and Northern Ireland. So we

:43:44.:43:49.

have invested very heavily in our telecommunications links, it is

:43:50.:43:52.

important we also have the appropriate electricity support as

:43:53.:43:55.

well, and we're working hard with the regulator and the systems

:43:56.:43:59.

operator to make sure that we do have the appropriate level in days.

:44:00.:44:03.

What about the challenge facing you and your Executive colleagues as far

:44:04.:44:06.

as East versus West in terms of invest that? We know that the

:44:07.:44:15.

difference between unemployment East and West of the Bann is huge. This

:44:16.:44:22.

must be an issue you are sensitive to, but how do you encourage

:44:23.:44:27.

companies to come to Northern Ireland and secondly encourage them

:44:28.:44:34.

to invest West of the Bann? That is about partnership, working with a

:44:35.:44:38.

particular regions involved, and if you take my own region for example,

:44:39.:44:43.

we have developed what is called a smart region proposal, whereby we

:44:44.:44:49.

are putting ourselves between the public sector, the private sector,

:44:50.:44:54.

the south-west colleges, hospitals, we are all working together to have

:44:55.:44:57.

a proposition to try and draw in inward investor that, but also

:44:58.:45:01.

supporting our indigenous companies as well, and I think that is

:45:02.:45:05.

important because I think some of our best examples of growth have

:45:06.:45:11.

been our indigenous companies. When you say there has been little or no

:45:12.:45:14.

investment in the west of the province, I think for example of

:45:15.:45:28.

weather has been. We're trying to draw in more inward investment, but

:45:29.:45:34.

also really support our indigenous companies because they have given us

:45:35.:45:39.

a lot of growth. You have got a pretty big brief in enterprise trade

:45:40.:45:44.

and investment, including tourism, and I know that is something you are

:45:45.:45:48.

passionate about. The Giro d'Italia is on its way, and we have seen the

:45:49.:45:51.

build up to that of the expectations. But there are still

:45:52.:45:57.

challenges as far as tourism is concerned, like for example securing

:45:58.:46:01.

a greater breadth of direct flights into and out of Northern Ireland.

:46:02.:46:06.

That remains something in your inbox, doesn't it? Very much so, and

:46:07.:46:14.

the Giro d'Italia's coming very soon, we have the circuit of Ireland

:46:15.:46:19.

Rally, the Northwest 200 happening. We have been concentrating

:46:20.:46:22.

Rally, the Northwest 200 happening. bringing large-scale events to

:46:23.:46:25.

Northern Ireland. Delighted that the Irish open is coming back to

:46:26.:46:28.

Northern Ireland next year, with Royal County Down, so we have been

:46:29.:46:34.

spending a lot of time building up our events strategy over this past

:46:35.:46:40.

period of time, but of course we need direct flights in? I spent a

:46:41.:46:45.

lot of time also talking to tourism sector and indeed I will be wishing

:46:46.:46:50.

the number one priority in that respect, and that is Canada. We

:46:51.:46:53.

believe there should be a Canadian leg. There has not been for some

:46:54.:47:00.

time, and it is one I am very strongly of the view that we will be

:47:01.:47:03.

able to see over the line in the next period of time. Finally, Peter

:47:04.:47:11.

Robinson's speech yesterday afternoon, he talked about reaching

:47:12.:47:17.

out to non-core Unionists. Looking for converts to Unionism. Who is he

:47:18.:47:24.

thinking about? He is talking about those who traditionally from their

:47:25.:47:27.

background may not have seen themselves as Unionists in the

:47:28.:47:32.

past, but increasingly are seeing themselves as such in the future

:47:33.:47:35.

because they see Northern Ireland's place in the union as being of

:47:36.:47:39.

benefit to them personally and of benefit to the whole of Northern

:47:40.:47:43.

Ireland in general. We will continue to reach out, we will be positive

:47:44.:47:47.

about Northern Ireland's place in the union, it is what we will enter

:47:48.:47:52.

the next period of election saying, because we believe it is best for

:47:53.:47:54.

all of the people of Northern Ireland.

:47:55.:47:57.

Arlene Foster, thank you for joining us.

:47:58.:48:00.

Thank you. Let's see what my guests of the day

:48:01.:48:04.

make of that. Paul McFadden and Rick Wilford are with me.

:48:05.:48:11.

make of that. Paul McFadden and Rick Rick, the whole issue of securing

:48:12.:48:15.

investment, securing jobs. But not just any jobs. File U-boat jobs.

:48:16.:48:19.

Some have been critical that this is about achieving targets, more than

:48:20.:48:25.

achieving quality investment. -- valuable -- valuable jobs. Arlene

:48:26.:48:33.

mentioned the jobs fund, but they are not the sort of high end jobs

:48:34.:48:37.

you were talking about. I was away for a few days last week but when I

:48:38.:48:44.

came back and look at the Belfast Telegraph poll of young people, two

:48:45.:48:47.

out of three say they see their future out of Northern Ireland. Our

:48:48.:48:55.

greatest strength is the human capital and the skills and

:48:56.:48:56.

intelligence that young people have. capital and the skills and

:48:57.:49:01.

We cannot afford for two out of three people to move out of Northern

:49:02.:49:08.

Ireland. We have two market jobs that are attractive to them. -- a

:49:09.:49:12.

jobs market that is valuable and attractive to them. I don't think

:49:13.:49:16.

these kinds of announcements like we heard last week guarantee that, they

:49:17.:49:21.

are relatively low-paid, yes, they are jobs and they are welcome, but

:49:22.:49:25.

it is not really the kind of platform we need to retain our best

:49:26.:49:31.

and our brightest. So it is a valuable investment on one level,

:49:32.:49:35.

Paul, ?18 million in salaries and wages per annum, but at the same

:49:36.:49:40.

time not the kind of high end jobs we need to be attracting? I think we

:49:41.:49:49.

need to upscale the available workforce here, and the minister

:49:50.:49:57.

mentioned reasons why Company is like Microsoft and Google might move

:49:58.:50:00.

to Dublin and places over the border. -- we need to up-skill. In

:50:01.:50:12.

terms of doing something about it, the minister mentioned the

:50:13.:50:16.

enterprise zone, the pilot enterprise zone, which was for

:50:17.:50:22.

Coleraine, and we will see what the outcome of that is, whether it

:50:23.:50:25.

delivers jobs of the quality and quantity we would like to see, and

:50:26.:50:30.

whether that can be rolled out to other areas which are in greater

:50:31.:50:36.

need. You live and work in the North West, what about that East versus

:50:37.:50:41.

West debate? Two Martin McGuinness mentioned the possibility of other

:50:42.:50:49.

announcements coming in the future, and we will wait to see what is

:50:50.:50:55.

delivered. I wanted to say something about the enterprise zones. She's

:50:56.:50:59.

been tried for many years -- these have been tried. Their record is

:51:00.:51:04.

patchy at best. They tend to suck in investment from the immediate area

:51:05.:51:09.

rather than creating new jobs. It's been a right royal week for

:51:10.:51:14.

some. Gareth Gordon looks back at the week in 60 seconds.

:51:15.:51:25.

All eyes on Britain this week for the first Irish presidential state

:51:26.:51:30.

visit. We have a fresh canvas on which to sketch our fresh hopes and

:51:31.:51:34.

to advance our overlapping ambitions. We will remember our

:51:35.:51:38.

past, but we shall no longer allow our past two inch near -- in snare

:51:39.:51:45.

our future. Leading figures attended a banquet at Windsor Castle, but

:51:46.:51:50.

must focus was on this man. I will observe the protocols. Lord Tebbit,

:51:51.:51:58.

injured in the writing bombing, -- Brighton bombing. It is highly

:51:59.:52:04.

dangerous for Lord Tebbit to make those kinds of remarks given the

:52:05.:52:10.

security situation. Could the era of free prescriptions be over? Many of

:52:11.:52:14.

us who receive free prescriptions can well afford them, and at the

:52:15.:52:18.

same time there are many out there who require drugs and specialist

:52:19.:52:21.

drugs and drugs for cancer, and we cannot afford to buy them.

:52:22.:52:28.

Loyal toasts, state banquets and another handshake with the Queen.

:52:29.:52:29.

Martin another handshake with the Queen.

:52:30.:52:32.

state visit by Michael D Higgins "will be noted for its spirit of

:52:33.:52:36.

generosity and peace-making". But for all the pageantry and symbolism,

:52:37.:52:39.

not everyone was happy at the Deputy First Minister's presence at

:52:40.:52:43.

Windsor. Relatives of people murdered by republicans demonstrated

:52:44.:52:45.

outside the castle, including a group representing victims of the

:52:46.:52:58.

Birmingham pub bombings. Who is thinking about us? As it seems to

:52:59.:53:01.

us, it appears that our politicians wish that they had buried ours

:53:02.:53:09.

alongside our dead. Julie Hambleton, whose sister Maxine was one of 21

:53:10.:53:13.

people killed in the Birmingham pub bombings in 1974.

:53:14.:53:16.

With me now is the Victims' Commissioner Kathryn Stone.

:53:17.:53:22.

With me now is the Victims' talk about Lord Tebbit's comments.

:53:23.:53:32.

He appeared to invite or say that he would support an attack on Martin

:53:33.:53:37.

McGuinness. But at a time like this week, do victims feel forgotten in

:53:38.:53:44.

the bigger debate? I don't think victims should ever be historical --

:53:45.:53:49.

ahistorical postscript to any of this, we need to think very

:53:50.:53:52.

carefully about how we can support victims through these frugal times.

:53:53.:53:58.

Last week was a very important, historic, culture is significant

:53:59.:54:03.

since -- culturally significant week. It demonstrates how the past

:54:04.:54:09.

and present collide, as Julie Hambleton was protesting outside

:54:10.:54:12.

Windsor Castle and feeling left out of everything going on. Another

:54:13.:54:20.

historic and significant thing was Seamus Daly being taken into

:54:21.:54:24.

Dungannon court charged with offences in relation to the Omagh

:54:25.:54:29.

bomb. So there was another example of how the past is colliding again

:54:30.:54:34.

with the present and how we need to think about supporting victims

:54:35.:54:40.

through all of that. That is a case we cannot discuss, but clearly the

:54:41.:54:47.

point that you make is correct. To what extent you feel that Lord

:54:48.:54:53.

Tebbit's comments were representative of how victims might

:54:54.:54:57.

feel and how victims may then have felt about the reaction that I got

:54:58.:55:02.

on Thursday night from Theresa Villiers who said what he had said,

:55:03.:55:06.

was shocking and unacceptable and highly dangerous?

:55:07.:55:09.

There is much to celebrate about what happened this week, many people

:55:10.:55:14.

are very congratulatory and celebratory about it, and that is

:55:15.:55:17.

proper, but there is not a great deal to celebrate or beacon

:55:18.:55:23.

structure later read about is paralysed or indeed if your child

:55:24.:55:27.

was shot by a stray black -- plastic bullet fired by somebody in the

:55:28.:55:33.

British Army. These are very difficult times for victims. There

:55:34.:55:37.

will be victims who said that despite the pain they continue to

:55:38.:55:42.

feel, they cannot hold the process back. You hear such a huge range of

:55:43.:55:48.

opinion from the victims that you meet some who would perhaps feel

:55:49.:55:51.

that Lord Tebbit was speaking for them, some who would feel that they

:55:52.:55:54.

absolutely was not speaking for them. If we think about some of the

:55:55.:56:02.

groups in England, justice for the 21 who Julie Hambleton represents,

:56:03.:56:04.

groups in England, justice for the and Colin and Wendy Parry, their

:56:05.:56:09.

views are diametrically opposite. Collett and Wendy Parry do an

:56:10.:56:14.

enormous amount of work in trying to counter extremism and terrorism.

:56:15.:56:22.

--: And Wendy Parry. -- Colin and Wendy Parry. We have people who say,

:56:23.:56:26.

let's move forward, let's put all this behind us, and others who say,

:56:27.:56:30.

absolutely not. What we want is acknowledgement, truth, justice, and

:56:31.:56:35.

some people also want reparation for what happened to them? --

:56:36.:56:41.

reparation. It is impossible to achieve both

:56:42.:56:45.

those desires, that is the difficulty presumably for you as the

:56:46.:56:49.

Victims' Commissioner. I don't think that moving forward in terms of

:56:50.:56:54.

society and peace and reconciliation that moving forward in terms of

:56:55.:56:58.

the needs and the wants of victims. I think we can do an awful lot, and

:56:59.:57:04.

I think there have been a number of very serious attempts to put on the

:57:05.:57:06.

table things that could support Vic Thames, for example -- and it is

:57:07.:57:15.

very frustrating for victims to know that politicians are wanting to hear

:57:16.:57:19.

their views and taking their views in in forming processes, but then

:57:20.:57:26.

nothing happens in that. We had a range of politicians who wanted to

:57:27.:57:29.

meet with us, after the process we have not seen any that are major

:57:30.:57:37.

differences of opinion within the offices of this First Minister and

:57:38.:57:41.

Deputy First Minister on a huge range of issues. The thing that has

:57:42.:57:47.

affected their unanimity of voice, unanimity of purpose on the victim

:57:48.:57:50.

affected their unanimity of voice, 's pupils issue? For our experience

:57:51.:57:54.

we have had a very positive experience. The First Minister

:57:55.:58:00.

Deputy First Minister accepted the 55 recommendations made about the

:58:01.:58:02.

victim 's pupils and survivors' service within a week, and have

:58:03.:58:06.

committed to giving Vic and the very best services they can.

:58:07.:58:13.

Thank you for joining us. A few final thoughts from my guest

:58:14.:58:17.

commentators. Rick, let us talk about the lessons

:58:18.:58:23.

that we should take out of the experience of the past week, with a

:58:24.:58:27.

presidential visit to the UK, and Martin McGuinness's part in it. What

:58:28.:58:32.

for you are the key point is we need to take on board? It is another

:58:33.:58:37.

success for statecraft on behalf of both the British and Irish States,

:58:38.:58:39.

that they pulled this off, both the British and Irish States,

:58:40.:58:45.

another sign a few like that we are beginning to move forward, we are

:58:46.:58:49.

taking relatively small steps, symbolically very important.

:58:50.:58:51.

Relating that to the victim 's pupils issue, I don't say there is

:58:52.:59:01.

any necessary contradiction, I don't think that the two unnecessarily

:59:02.:59:05.

contradictory. There is statecraft on the once -- and and on the other

:59:06.:59:14.

hand -- there is the low politics in terms of meeting the needs of

:59:15.:59:18.

survivors, and that is the priority. I think it is a case of both and

:59:19.:59:26.

rather than either or. You take the fact that for example there is still

:59:27.:59:31.

controversy about who constitutes a victim exactly. There is this kind

:59:32.:59:37.

of kernel of anxiety and conflict over this issue. But we can model

:59:38.:59:48.

on, and -- I think, -- model on. The idea of a republican leader going to

:59:49.:59:52.

Windsor Castle dressed in white tie and tails, standing for the national

:59:53.:59:58.

anthem would have been anathema not just to Republicans but nationalists

:59:59.:00:04.

a few years ago, but I was struck by a line of the Queen saying we are

:00:05.:00:07.

entering a period of historical resonance. I think we are living in

:00:08.:00:11.

a time of political resonance, and the things we saw happening, words

:00:12.:00:19.

back up by deeds, I think we kind of guide us through maybe the next few

:00:20.:00:24.

weeks, months and years. I thought it was a very interesting and

:00:25.:00:32.

significant week. We're taking a break for a couple of weeks for

:00:33.:00:35.

Easter, but we'll be back on Sunday May fourth. For now, bye-bye

:00:36.:00:38.

particular candidates. Back to you, Andrew.

:00:39.:00:48.

The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the London Marathon, and MPs leave

:00:49.:00:50.

Westminster for their Easter break. Let's discuss what's coming up in

:00:51.:01:01.

the Week Ahead. We will get more of what we have

:01:02.:01:05.

just seen. Let's look back on the debate. What did we learn from the

:01:06.:01:11.

argument is? That it is going to bore and irritate whole lot of

:01:12.:01:14.

people, this election campaign. Four parties shouting at each other about

:01:15.:01:18.

things that most people do not know much about. They know very

:01:19.:01:21.

things that most people do not know about how the European Parliament

:01:22.:01:24.

works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of

:01:25.:01:33.

light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not

:01:34.:01:37.

going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing

:01:38.:01:44.

that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are

:01:45.:01:48.

not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks

:01:49.:01:54.

lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that

:01:55.:01:56.

because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP

:01:57.:02:03.

and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the

:02:04.:02:09.

issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these

:02:10.:02:10.

individuals. It is there have not heard of these

:02:11.:02:15.

exciting. That is worrying because these are huge national questions

:02:16.:02:18.

for us. We need to find a way of making it more fun. People may not

:02:19.:02:25.

know these MEPs, they may not know the detail of the debate, but it is

:02:26.:02:30.

an issue on which people have strong opinions. It is a visceral thing for

:02:31.:02:34.

many people. Especially on the immigration issue. The debate took

:02:35.:02:36.

off and became more vociferous at that point. To a large extent, you

:02:37.:02:43.

wonder whether not only this European election but the eventual

:02:44.:02:47.

referendum will be a referendum on the issue of immigration and free

:02:48.:02:51.

movement. If we did not learn much from the argument, the thing we did

:02:52.:02:54.

learn is that the structure of these televised debate influences the

:02:55.:03:02.

outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate

:03:03.:03:08.

is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the

:03:09.:03:12.

other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn

:03:13.:03:17.

did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40

:03:18.:03:21.

came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would

:03:22.:03:24.

expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to

:03:25.:03:28.

agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think

:03:29.:03:33.

the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised

:03:34.:03:37.

debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors

:03:38.:03:40.

believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not

:03:41.:03:44.

actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all

:03:45.:03:50.

right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the

:03:51.:03:55.

battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is.

:03:56.:04:01.

Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are

:04:02.:04:04.

closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not

:04:05.:04:10.

come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this

:04:11.:04:15.

stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side

:04:16.:04:20.

and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your

:04:21.:04:26.

houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into

:04:27.:04:32.

the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be

:04:33.:04:37.

better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem,

:04:38.:04:42.

but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences? I

:04:43.:04:47.

think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster

:04:48.:04:50.

that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come

:04:51.:04:56.

first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr

:04:57.:05:00.

village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that

:05:01.:05:03.

despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the

:05:04.:05:09.

overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget

:05:10.:05:15.

blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership

:05:16.:05:20.

is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in

:05:21.:05:24.

the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron

:05:25.:05:29.

comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it

:05:30.:05:34.

headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said

:05:35.:05:39.

that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see

:05:40.:05:45.

them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the

:05:46.:05:51.

sun will be about David Cameron's personal leadership and his grip on

:05:52.:05:55.

the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes

:05:56.:05:59.

around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The

:06:00.:06:05.

Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in

:06:06.:06:10.

the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was

:06:11.:06:17.

the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was

:06:18.:06:23.

because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when

:06:24.:06:30.

he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often

:06:31.:06:31.

that low. I think deal. The polls were quite often

:06:32.:06:37.

thing to do. It raised his profile. It made him the leading party in.

:06:38.:06:42.

That may be a difficult place to be. That is how you end up with 7%

:06:43.:06:48.

in the polls. The reason he is fighting with Labour is that he

:06:49.:06:51.

knows very well that all he has to do is to get his votes back that

:06:52.:06:55.

have gone to Labour and labour have to fight hard to make sure that they

:06:56.:07:01.

do not go back. Every party looks to where it is going to get it

:07:02.:07:06.

support. If it is a wipe-out for the Lib Dems, and they lose all their

:07:07.:07:10.

MEPs, not saying that is going to happen but you could not rule it out

:07:11.:07:17.

for, are we back in Nick Clegg leadership crisis territory? One of

:07:18.:07:20.

the astonishing things about this Parliament is the relative absence

:07:21.:07:24.

of leadership speculation about Nick Clegg will stop at the first couple

:07:25.:07:26.

of years, his position seems Clegg will stop at the first couple

:07:27.:07:29.

tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the

:07:30.:07:33.

only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put

:07:34.:07:36.

it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a

:07:37.:07:41.

desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a

:07:42.:07:44.

candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto

:07:45.:07:48.

power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all,

:07:49.:07:54.

and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is

:07:55.:08:00.

clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further

:08:01.:08:03.

away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But

:08:04.:08:10.

he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal

:08:11.:08:14.

attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for

:08:15.:08:19.

43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been

:08:20.:08:25.

bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots

:08:26.:08:30.

activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are

:08:31.:08:35.

despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists, who

:08:36.:08:38.

they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that

:08:39.:08:42.

you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a

:08:43.:08:46.

Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish

:08:47.:08:52.

constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great

:08:53.:08:59.

offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It

:09:00.:09:03.

is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet

:09:04.:09:06.

another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine

:09:07.:09:11.

counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very

:09:12.:09:17.

embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the

:09:18.:09:20.

threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered

:09:21.:09:24.

at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know

:09:25.:09:30.

what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the

:09:31.:09:33.

case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it

:09:34.:09:37.

is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively

:09:38.:09:43.

weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS

:09:44.:09:47.

uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a

:09:48.:09:51.

high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the

:09:52.:09:59.

deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to

:10:00.:10:04.

begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him.

:10:05.:10:07.

begin with they did not have that And then they trawled for more. You

:10:08.:10:10.

wonder if they would have done that if it was not for the fact that he

:10:11.:10:14.

was a public figure. The trouble is, they are dammed if they do and

:10:15.:10:17.

dammed if they do not. Particularly with politicians and the reputation

:10:18.:10:20.

they have these days, if there is any suggestion that they let

:10:21.:10:24.

somebody off because they are a high-profile politician, and they

:10:25.:10:28.

are saying that about Cyril Smith, that is the accusation. A strange

:10:29.:10:33.

story. Most unlikely and very bizarre. But that is the accusation.

:10:34.:10:37.

If there is any with of that, I can see why the CPS says, we better let

:10:38.:10:44.

the courts try this one. Also, they are in trouble overrated cases

:10:45.:10:47.

because their success rate on bringing people to court for rape is

:10:48.:10:55.

so thin. When it looked as if his accusers were not really accusing

:10:56.:10:57.

him, it looks quite weak. You cannot help but

:10:58.:11:02.

him, it looks quite weak. You cannot falling over backwards now in

:11:03.:11:04.

high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy

:11:05.:11:09.

Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you

:11:10.:11:12.

are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture.

:11:13.:11:17.

All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed

:11:18.:11:21.

to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence

:11:22.:11:23.

matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this

:11:24.:11:27.

list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five

:11:28.:11:31.

or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the

:11:32.:11:34.

police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those

:11:35.:11:37.

because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent,

:11:38.:11:41.

being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on

:11:42.:11:46.

Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom

:11:47.:11:47.

and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this Westminster is twinned with Sodom

:11:48.:11:55.

true? It is all rather the red. I do not move in those circles. And you

:11:56.:11:58.

were in the lobby at one stage? Not that long ago. Is it right. Is it

:11:59.:12:04.

right to be twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his

:12:05.:12:08.

opinion. Being technically a member of the lobby, I can observe some of

:12:09.:12:15.

this stuff. And what surprises me is that journalists, when the complain

:12:16.:12:20.

about Sodom and Gomorrah, write themselves out of it. It is as if it

:12:21.:12:24.

is just MPs. We are unalloyed and unvarnished. Actually, the fact is

:12:25.:12:29.

it has always been a bit like Sodom and tomorrow. Of course it has.

:12:30.:12:33.

Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals.

:12:34.:12:37.

But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly

:12:38.:12:42.

changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation

:12:43.:12:46.

changed. I'll also think that if you and you put that much scrutiny on

:12:47.:12:50.

them, you will find an awful lot going on in most people's officers

:12:51.:12:57.

of a scurrilous nature. Even in the BBC

:12:58.:14:00.

In 2013, the public voted for a portrait of

:14:01.:14:03.

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