04/05/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Walls are being

re-painted in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in police

custody in connection with one of the most brutal and shocking murders

of the Troubles. That's our top story.

He may have got egg on his face this week but Nigel Farage is a serious

electoral threat in this month's elections. I'll ask the Conservative

Party Chairman Grant Shapps how worried he is.

And we're on the trail of Nick Clegg. You were voted the best

looking party leader and the most likely to be a good

And in Northern Ireland: As the deadline for police to charge or

release Gerry Adams gets closer, we deadline for police to charge or

talk to the five Executive parties about the possible impact on

Stormont and policing. and independence. We have a table

full of Euro candidates here to debate what it means for London.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the

business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. They'll be

throwing metaphorical rotten eggs into the twittersphere.

First this morning - Gerry Adams, President of Sinn Fein, has spent a

fourth night in police custody after he was arrested in connection with

the killing of Jean McConville more than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has

claimed that the arrest is politically motivated coming, as it

does, during local and European election campaigns. Northern

Ireland's deputy first minister, Martin McGuinness, has indicated he

might review the party's support for policing in the province if Gerry

Adams is charged. The Jean McConville murder was one of the

most notorious cases of the Troubles.

The widowed mother of ten was kidnapped from her home in December

1972, never to be seen alive again. The IRA denied involvement but in

1999 admitted it had murdered her and several others, known as the

Disappeared. Before his death, the former IRA commander Brendan Hughes

pointed the finger at Gerry Adams, claiming:

In April this year, either Bell was charged with aiding and abetting the

murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams has always insisted he is innocent

of any part in the abduction and killing all burial of Mrs

McConville. We were hoping to speak to the

Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa Villiers, but having agreed to do an

interview with us this morning, she pulled out. But we are joined from

Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And

the police just doing their job by questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams

said publicly some time ago that he was available to speak to the

police, but that is not what this is about at the moment, because what we

have here is clearly evidence in our mind of political interference in

what should be due process. Gerry Adams made it clear some time ago he

wanted to speak to the police, it was available at any time, and yet

that request was not taken up until three weeks into an election and we

believe that was deliberately orchestrated by a small number of

people. What evidence can you present this morning that proves

that claim? The direct circumstances Gerry Adams finds himself in at the

moment, take that in stark contrast when they have dealt with members of

the British Army for instance... That is just circumstantial. The

PSNI know that the soldiers involved in that and a number of other

high-profile killings of citizens here, and not one of those people

has been arrested. In fact any of the people who were interviewed were

interviewed by request. There was a stark contrast, in terms of how they

have dealt with the British military involving state killings. We haven't

got too much time. Sinn Fein said it would review its support for the

PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That sounds like political interference

in the police process. It's not because we have a clear mandate from

the people who elect us. Policing has been an important part of the

peace process here for many years, Sinn Fein plays an important role in

local policing partnerships. We negotiate to make sure we have

powers transferred here to elected representatives in the north. It is

a long way to go before we have policing highly accountable, and

making sure they deliver a very impartial service. How will he react

if Gerry Adams is charged? I am still trying to get a clear answer.

If Gerry Adams is charged, will you withdraw support for the Northern

Ireland police service? We view this as a serious situation and a serious

ongoing situation and we will monitor how this pans out. We have a

very important role to play to support the police service here. We

have done consistently, worked with them on a daily basis, but we will

not accept political interference by a small number of people in the

police who are undermining the police. We will not accept political

policing. If there was evidence, and I emphasise the word if, because we

have seen none, but if there were evidence to justify Gerry Adams

being charged, why should he not be charged? It is my understanding from

the family of Gerry Adams that there has not been a single shred of

evidence put forward. I understand that, but if there was evidence, why

should he not be charged? You put that caveat yourself and then you

expect me to speculate, there is no way I will do that. The fact of the

matter is there hasn't been one single shred of evidence put to

Gerry Adams in the last few days, in fact what has been put to him is a

range of issues of newspaper cuttings, books, statements made

from people, including from people who didn't want their statements

released until they have died. who didn't want their statements

was charged, again I emphasise the word if, does the police process

fall apart? The police process is a fragile entity, it requires work and

we have been saying this publicly and privately with the Irish and

British and privately with the Irish and

process has to be nurtured and developed. We are not out of the

woods yet. From a Republican point of view we have been working flat

out. I just wanted a quick answer to my question, is a yes or no? What

question I asking me? Is the peace process in jeopardy? It is fragile

and I am not going to have words put into my mouth but I don't want to

use. It has to be worked out and nurtured. Thank you for joining us.

Nick Watt, you were a Northern Ireland correspondent like myself in

days gone by. Where is this going to go? It shows how challenging the

peace process is because on the one hand you have the unspeakable pain

of the McConville family, but you also have the danger of not having

mechanisms to deal with the past. South Africa is a good example, you

have to have some mechanism to deal with the past because if you don't,

you are going to have, as Sinn Fein have now, someone in a police cell

but you don't have the arrests of the Bloody Sunday soldiers.

Paramilitary prisoners were released after two years... We have seen no

action against somebody accused of the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a

one-way street. We have the decommissioning of IRA weapons by

the IRA, therefore destroying crucial evidence. You have these

inconsistencies because you don't have an mechanism for dealing with

the past, but doing that is really difficult because of the pain of

real people. Don't you get a feeling that here in London they are hoping

he will not be charged? Definitely because it would be nice if

everything went away, but the civil case of the family is taken out of

the hands of the police. You can see here a real failure in Westminster

to see this as anything other than settled. David Cameron we know sees

himself as a chairman. I was speaking to a friend in Northern

Ireland who said he has never met Gerry Adams and I think this is very

revealing. They consider this as a settled issue that will not trouble

Westminster again. It would be, but the relatives of the disappeared

don't want it to be settled. This points to the reality that the

Belfast agreement probably had to be done, but the moral price at which

it was purchased was far greater than we were willing to admit during

the euphoria. For a country that prides itself by the rule of law to

tolerate the early release of prisoners and former pal and

military -- paramilitaries, I think was a very serious matter. As for

the PSNI, it only exists because its predecessor failed to command the

confidence of the nationalist community. It is a very big deal if

even the PSNI ends up falling into the same trap. We have to is leave

it there I'm afraid. It was the Conservative's local election

campaign launch on Friday, and what did David Cameron focus on? Burning

local issues like the state of our roads, rubbish collection or care of

the elderly? No. It was Europe. The Prime Minister re-iterated again his

promise of an in-out referendum on our membership of the EU in 2017.

And it's being reported this morning that he will share a platform with

Nigel Farage in a pre-general election debate. Here's what the

UKIP leader had to say about the issue when he was on the Marr Show

this morning with Ed Miliband. David Cameron very often makes these vague

promises, then doesn't deliver afterwards. I don't think he has any

intention of allowing me into any of these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband

wants to debate? We have got to have the TV debates as we did join the

last general election. I think David Cameron is doing everything he can

to wriggle out of them. It is up to the broadcasters but whether they

invite Nigel. My main desire is that the debates go ahead. We are joined

now by Grant Shapps. Will he be included? The debates were not

without problems, they took place during the campaign period and

disrupted the flow of the campaign, taking it out of the regions, people

getting to speak to the leaders so a longer period for that would be

helpful. I think they are good idea and they should go ahead, but all of

the negotiation about who is involved is yet to happen. So it is

not a done deal that Nigel Farage will be included? That needs to be

negotiated with the TV companies. The Conservatives believe we should

have debates, but exactly the format and the timing, all of the -- that

will be debated in the autumn, but first we have European elections,

the Queen 's speech and a Scottish referendum. The local election

campaign was launched on Friday. Why did you talk more about Europe than

local councils? Both are important. The local elections are critically

important for people, their local services. It is easy to forget, for

example, that the council tax has been largely frozen since this

Government came to power, a big contrast to Dublin under the

previous Labour government. So why did you go on and on about Europe?

Let me show you the poster used to launch your local election campaign.

There it is, and in-out referendum on Europe, the day of the local

elections, where is the word local? Is it in small print? I hear what

you're saying, I am happy to be here to talk about the local elections.

But you are right, they are on the same day, and not many people know

that only by voting conservative can you get an in-out referendum. --

Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver, we can, it is the same date, so

people... This was the launch of the local election campaign. Why does

the Prime Minister have to keep on promising something he has already

promised? The actual referendum would be in 2017. He promised it

before, he keeps repeating it because he knows people don't really

trust him. I think it is a question of the fact that, actually, unless

you remind people that the pledges there, that the only way to get an

in-out referendum is to vote for it, this is a critical moment at

which we need people to vote for that referendum if they want it. It

is not the case, as I saw this morning, being said by Nigel Farage,

that a referendum was promised before and not delivered. There was

no referendum in the last manifesto. There will be in the next one. There

was a cast-iron guarantee, in the Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that

up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In the Sun article, he said, we will

have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty

had been passed before the general election, it is difficult to have a

referendum on something in the past. We joined Europe in the 1970s,

having a referendum on that! Look, that is about the future. Our

relationship with Europe is absolutely critical. Most people in

this country feel, I was not old enough to vote in that referendum,

most of those who voted, they voted for a Common Market, that is not

what we have got. We want to continue the work we have been doing

in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do? They voted against it. We want more

of those powers brought home, and we will put it to a referendum, and

people will have to vote Conservative to get it. We have been

looking at new research, almost two thirds of Conservative members are

considering voting for UKIP, almost two thirds. I have a simple message

here, which is this. If you vote for UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are

likely, 30% are possible. That is why it is important we are making

these arguments. If you vote for UKIP, you are voting to take us

further away from returning powers to this country, further from a

referendum. It is support for Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister,

and he will do exactly what Labour have always done - hand away powers,

and away the rebate for nothing in return, giving Europe even more so

over the day-to-day affairs in Britain. Why are so many people

considering voting UKIP? It is to hold your feet to the fire, they do

not trust you on a referendum, so they will vote UKIP to force you to

tap in your line. We have a very tough line. If I had said four years

ago that this government would manage to cut the overall EU

budget, would take us out of the bailout fund that Labour got us

into, passing a law that no more powers can go to Europe without a

referendum, if I had said that, people would say, I do not believe

it will happen. Not only have we done these things, we are promising

and in-out referendum, and the only way to get it is to vote

Conservative. Nigel Farage has said, we can't change anything in

Europe, and it is no wonder that the president of the European Commission

has said, we love having these UKIP MEPs, because they don't turn up and

vote, apart from when they vote against the cut in the budget. It

goes beyond UKIP in your party, because this research also showed

that those Conservative members most likely to vote for UKIP, they said

they do not feel valued or respected by their own leadership, and they

regard David Cameron as ideological eat more remote from them than UKIP.

What I would say is look at that list... Let me take that step

further. What people need our series solutions to serious problems. When

people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will say, which one of the 40% of the

MEPs who got in for UKIP last time are you voting for, the ones above

left or defected, the ones have gone to jail? 40% have ended up not

delivering. People have a right to know what to expect when they vote

in these elections. They can look at our record at home, and this goes to

the point you have raised about what we have done in Britain to get this

economy back on track, recover from Labour's recession. We are prepared

to take those decisions in Europe as well. Presumably, active

Conservative members, they know that, so why do they not feel valued

by the leadership? I spend time going up and down the country

meeting Conservative members, and they are on the doorstep, last

weekend 150 out in Enfield campaigning for the European and

local elections... Why are they keen on UKIP? When I meet somebody who

says that, not necessarily a member... Have you met members of

say they will vote UKIP? No, but a vote for UKIP is... Do not do it,

you will end up with Labour having more control, handing away powers to

Europe. 51-year-old meeting members who say they will vote UKIP, you

must be out of touch. -- if you are not meeting members. Some of your

members are thinking of voting UKIP. I spend huge amount of time

travelling around, I just told you about this action day in Enfield,

where we had an enormous turnout. Those members were on the doorsteps

pointing out that you can only get reform in Europe by voting

Conservative. Labour and the Lib Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't,

Conservatives will. You have not got that message across, because a

YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who has the best policies? Tories 18%,

Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP

4. Why don't you shut up about Europe and talk about the economy?

Look, on the 27th of May, we have European elections, as well as local

elections. If I don't talk about the European elections, you would say

what you said at the beginning about not talking about the local

elections! These are serious elections, and the point I am tried

to make is that the issues at stake are not peripheral, they are not

unimportant. Our MEPs have been battling to cut red tape from a

European level on small businesses, the same thing this government has

been doing for small businesses domestic league, where for example

every small business owner watching this show knows they have got ?2000

back in employment announced on national insurance contributions. We

are doing it at home, we are doing it in Europe, and it is important to

tie that together. Ireland that Mr Cameron saying, you should stop

banging on about Europe... -- I remember. This is before the last

general election, as in days for the Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't

win the election, and now you are only three or four points ahead, it

doesn't look good for you, does it? Even then, the poll did not turn out

to be what it was on the day. No, that is what happens, that is the

voting intentions now! You are in a worse position than a year before

the last election, which you didn't win. We are almost proving the point

that you can take a clip at any moment in time, not sounding like a

politician, but the only poll that matters is on the day. In just over

a year's time, people will have a completely different picture to look

at than these opinion polls. We have an economy from being a basket

case, the great Labour recession knocking 7% of this economy, hurting

every family, to a point where we the fastest-growing economy in the

developed world. In a year's time, I hope people will see that we are the

people who've taken the difficult decisions, got the economy to the

right place, more security for you and your family. Do not give the car

keys back to the people who crashed it in the first place. If I had a

pound for every time I have heard that! It is clearly not getting

through. On the Pfizer attempted of AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this

morning for a tougher public interest test such big takeovers. Do

you agree with that or not? Let me be absolutely clear, if there is any

kind of joining, we are in favour of British jobs,

kind of joining, we are in favour of -- R But what Mr Mallon and wants

to do with rent caps, he is to do with rent caps, he is

wants to take us back to the bad old those. -- bad old days. Should there

be a bigger public interest test? We have seen some takeovers that people

have criticised, but others, like Bentley, Land Rover, which have been

very successful. Should there be a tougher test?! We will have tests

that ensured this get-together becomes a great Anglo-American

project, or it doesn't happen, but the Miliband approach is simply to

be anti-business, anti-jobs and anti-job security. Grant Shapps,

thank you. A challenging week for the Liberal

Democrats with a local election campaign overshadowed by another row

with the Conservatives about knife crime. Adam has spent the day with

Nick Clegg on the campaign trail. How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on

a political mini break to the Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the

train. He wants to highlight what his party is doing in local

government, and a personal passion of his in Europe. Graham Watson,

government, and a personal passion Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has

been running a campaign to have prunes recognised as a laxative. Is

that Lib Dems battling for Britain in Europe? It is not our front page

manifesto commitment! It is one of many things that Graham does, he

does many other things. In fact, he is a good example of an MEP who took

a pioneering role, for instance, in making sure... There is the proven

world, but also the crime-fighting role. -- prune. He has done work to

make sure that when British criminals flee justice, we can bring

them back. And he has promoted prunes! First stop, a gorgeous

country pub, but it turns out everyone is a journalist or a very

on message activist. Dark days, being a Lib Dem in the last few

years? Strangely not. If you find you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do

not get that disheartened, because you know that, locally, you are

doing so well for the people that you live next door to that,

actually, I find I am almost impervious to what happens on a

national level. I am mayor of Cirencester. Have you taken any

leadership lessons from Nick Clegg, inspiring new in your leadership of

Cirencester? I think what he has demonstrated his patience. It has

been a tough time, he has taken a lot of flak, and as the mayor of a

town, lots of people agree with you and a fair few don't. You are a full

on mayor, he is just a Deputy and a fair few don't. You are a full

Minister, do you outrank him? I don't think so, he is in government,

I am not. So our there any normal people in here? We are from

Swindon, you cannot get more abnormal. Are you a big fan of his?

No! What has he done wrong? I don't believe in his views at all. Where

has he got to? Nigel Farage would have had a pint! At this time in the

morning a copy was more appropriate. I have no time for a drink of any

kind, because now we are off to look at a local traffic blackspot. This

is amazing, like a Lib Dem election leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems

pointing at a road. High-vis jackets! Next we had to giggle full

bath, but there will be no Regency sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is

taking us to an abandoned wilderness. We have just had a

health and safety briefing, we have been told to look out for

dive-bombing seagulls and an angry fox. That is the sort of thing Nick

Clegg has to put up with. He wants to talk about the economy but he has

to dodge the day's beat new story, letters leaked by a Tory suggesting

that Lib Dems are soft on knife crime. Isn't that a new kind of

warfare? I just think it is silly. They may think they are clever by

catching some headlines but they are not helping people who worry about

knife crime, like I do. We work together... Just like the

Coalition! This is a co-working space where different businesses

share the same office. My time with the Deputy Prime Minister is drawing

to a close. We haven't talked about the most important story of the

week, that you were voted the best looking party leader and the most

likely to be a good cook. Right, this is news to me and I can

guarantee you that my scepticism of opinion polls has just been

confirmed. Just as well because the more serious polls don't look great

for him or his party. Goodbye, and thanks for the offer of a ride

home! He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce

joins us now. According to Lib Dem briefing documents, you are likely

to choose -- lose a big chunk of your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what

would that say about a party that boasts of its pro-Europe

credentials? It would be disappointing because we have the

most hard-working MEPs. The worry that we have is that people think

the European Parliament is not important but it takes decisions

that affect us. They would be disappointing for Britain as well as

the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the problem that the more you bang on

about your pro-European credentials, the more you slip in the polls? I do

think so, we have two weeks to go and we are campaigning extremely

hard. You are forced in the polls. I can tell you there are people out

there who do believe Britain should stay in the EU and they are worried

that other parties will take us out. The Liberal Democrats are clear, we

want to stay in, we will work for reform and do it effectively. If you

lose the Liberal Democrats, Britain's influence in Europe will

be weakened. Your track record in Europe shows you have been

spectacularly wrong again and again. In your 2009 manifesto you said the

European Central Bank and the euro have been tried and tested over ten

years providing a clear picture of the benefits of Eurozone membership

and that proved to be nonsense. It was nonsense everywhere. Every

developed bank in the world was tried and tested and failed. Europe

may not be perfect, but the question people have to decide is if we are

going to leave Europe and be isolated on RM, or use our influence

to reform it from inside. We have allies, you work with them, that is

something the Lib Dems do better than any other parties. Your 2004

manifesto, you claim that being outside the euro would lead to job

losses and reduced prosperity. You were just plain wrong, weren't you?

Yes, but the reason is that to some were just plain wrong, weren't you?

extent the euro did not observe any rules and regulations when it was

set up. That is why we never recommended Britain should join at

the outset because the criteria had not been met. In 2001 Nick Clegg was

writing to the Financial Times... Your track record is important. He

wrote that the Tisch monetary policy is not all it is cracked up to be.

Britain would gain greater control over its affairs by joining the

euro. How wrong can he be? We have over its affairs by joining the

always argued that the currency had to abide by strict criteria. It

hasn't done so and that is one to abide by strict criteria. It

the reasons it has to abide by strict criteria. It

recognise there is no future for Britain joining the euro and we are

not advocating it. Lets put your 2010 manifesto on the screen. I

didn't say it was not our long-term interest. If Europe succeeds as an

entity, if the euro becomes one of the world leading currencies, there

will come a point when it may be justified. In the circumstances we

are in the moment, there is no recommended timescale. Let's get

this right. Despite the Eurozone crisis which has cost millions of

jobs, countries that were teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, the

Eurozone now facing stagnation and some countries on the brink of

deflation, you still won't rule out Britain joining? We are ruling it

out in the foreseeable future. You can miss the point that we are

working as a coalition partner in government that has secured recovery

for the UK, and working as Liberal Democrats in the parliament that

for the UK, and working as Liberal have cut back the European budget

for the UK, and working as Liberal cooperation with others. What would

the world look like if it were right for Britain to join the euro? You

have 27 states at the moment, with too many

have 27 states at the moment, with to meet the criteria so until you

have a strong and cohesive enough single Eurozone in which all the

countries can meet that criteria, Britain is better off out. So a more

centralised Eurozone, that is what you would like Britain to join? No,

because it can only happen by consent. Any circumstances in which

any further powers would be transferred from the UK to the EU,

we would support a referendum. You have just said that for the Eurozone

to work, it has to be more centralised and you said if that

happens, that is what Britain would join. I didn't say that, I said it

would require the consent of all member states to agree to the

criteria. We certainly do not envisage joining in the foreseeable

future. Since you are the proud party of in, why weren't you just

give us a referendum on in or out? Because it has to have a context.

What David Cameron is doing is dangerous because I think the major

players like Britain and France are not keen on the idea of being

bullied into reforms on the instigation of just one member state

which is threatening possibility to withdraw. They will have to agree to

rules... Just have it now. Do you want in or out? To have a referendum

against no background is to put it out of context. We are in the middle

of a crisis, a year away from the general election. We have made it

clear... You said we are in the middle of the Eurozone crisis? So we

are not in the middle of it? What's the middle? The reality is that the

Western world has gone through a deep crisis. The UK is coming out of

it, the Eurozone is coming out of it. Greece have been able to borrow

on the markets in recent weeks which is a sign of success. It is in our

interest is the Eurozone succeeds and recovers and we should be part

of it but not necessarily on the same conditions as everyone else.

The Liberal Democrats work with others to deliver Britain's

interests and if they are not there, their interests will be undermined.

Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. Dark

forces, cabals and "an embittered rump of the RUC" - how far is Sinn

Fein prepared to go as it accuses the PSNI of political policing over

Gerry Adams' arrest? And with the first demonstration on the streets,

could republicans escalate their protest and just how far would that

protest go? In a specially extended Sunday Politics, we'll hear from all

five Executive parties. So, the man who is arguably the best known of

our active politicians across the world, Gerry Adams, is in his fifth

day of questioning by the PSNI at Antrim police station. He remains

there after a judge gave detectives up until this evening to continue

interviewing the Sinn Fein President. The issue has put

Northern Ireland back on the radar of the world's media, many of whom

have been in Antrim. Our reporter Catherine Morrison is there now.

Catherine, what are the options open to the police? When Gerry Adams

arrived here at Antrim police station voluntarily on Wednesday

night few believed he would still be here five days later. On Friday

night detectives were granted another two days to question him

further. That runs out at five o'clock tonight so at that point

they must either release him, charge him, or apply for an extension.

There was a view he could be kept for up to 20 days but that would

take us over the election period and so seems unlikely. He is being

questioned for up to 17 hours per day. The cells are very basic. Just

a rough bed and buying kit at night. This is perfectly normal practice.

Mr Adams is not being treated any differently to anyone else and it is

all human right is compliant. The clock is ticking and the countdown

is on to the deadline tonight. Thank you. So, the first street protest

over the Sinn Fein leader's detention happened yesterday

afternoon attended by a number of prominent party figures, including

several MLAs. At the West Belfast rally, Martin McGuinness got a

rousing reception from supporters at a newly painted mural of Gerry

Adams. The Deputy First Minister had strong criticism of the PSNI, and

blamed what he cold "an embittered rump of the old RUC" wanting to

settle scores. We fully support the PS NI and a democratic policing of

justice but our support is a political support. No police force

anywhere in the world is immune from criticism if it is acting in a

partisan fashion. The arrest of Gerry Adams is evidence that there

are people in the PSNI who are against the peace protest who hate

Gerry Adams and heat Sinn Fein. -- hate. And just this morning, the

First Minister Peter Robinson has accused Sinn Fein of attempting to

blackmail the police with a "crude and overt political threat". In a

strongly worded statement, Mr Robinson uses the term "bully boy

tactics", and says republicans have crossed the line. With me now are

the Sinn Fein MLA, Gerry Kelly, and the DUP MP, Jeffrey Donaldson. How

much threat do you think the process is under with this arrest? I think

Peter Robinson has a brass neck saying that the process is viable.

He has been defending the protests of flag-wavers and all the rest of

it. There is an issue. We have been very clear about this. The reason

people are pro testing in the street is because this is about political

policing. It is entirely linked to the fact there are two elections

coming up and that Sinn Fein is surging forward is. That is what

this is about. They could have waited until the end. Articles were

written decades ago as well as the so-called Boston tapes and they have

gone through every single thing they have gone through many times before.

They could have done this ten months ago. Gerry Adams himself offered to

come forward five weeks ago. There may well have been reasons for that.

They should clarify that. What I and others believe is that there is

political policing, when we see there is a small cabal through the

PSNI all you have to do is look at what happened in the ombudsman's

office. We demanded an enquiry because when they were a link with

state forces who were suspected of being involved in killings they were

given a pre-packaged of interviews. That is differential policing, it is

not acceptable and we will criticise it. There is the evidence, he says.

I do not accept that. The police have the full legal right to do what

they are doing. Who is this cabal that Sinn Fein are talking about? I

have no doubt that the decision to interview Gerry Adams and the timing

of that would have been decided at the highest levels by the most

senior officers in the PSNI. Is he suggesting they are this cabal, hard

the people inside the pleas force who heat Sinn Fein? I am concerned

that within the senior team there are people who still have the old

guard view of this. I did not see who this included. That is in the

senior edge lawns. Let me make this clear. There are also people in the

senior lecturer lawns who are brought in and who are pushing

things forward but there are others whose influence is there. What about

the statement from your party leader today which talks about Sinn Fein

saying it will be assessed its attitude to policing? The PSNI must

not be the subject of Republican bully boy tactics, does that kind of

language help? It goes to the heart of what the peace process is about.

You are either supporting the policing or not. In terms of this

situation, you cannot on the one hand say police must sue things

impartially and act the same time say if Gerry Adams were to be

charged they must reassess their thinking and support. I am asking if

this language is helpful? The anger on the doorsteps is palpable. People

are very concerned by the very subtle and in some cases not so

subtle pressure that Sinn Fein are trying to apply to the police and

judicial system over this issue. I think there is an attempt to

intimidate the police on this issue. Let's not lose sight of what is at

the heart of this. The abduction of the mother of ten children, her

brutal torture and murder. Our body lay undiscovered for ten years, her

family deprived of the right to grieve the loss. They are entitled

to justice. I do not hear any remorse from Sinn Fein about what

happened to hard. Do you also accept that unless Gerry Adams is found

guilty of this he is an innocent man? Of course he is. That point has

been made by the DUP throughout this process. The police must be allowed

to get on with their job of this investigation, to question whoever

they need to question and find justice for the family of Jean

McConville. No-one should be putting pressure on the police to come up

with the conclusion other than the one which is just and lawful.

Robinson is right to say that when you prevaricate and are unclear

about your support for the rule of law and the police, when it becomes

conditional, that is a breach of what we agreed to at St Andrews. You

would think that Unionists never criticise the police. I sit on the

police board and listen to them attacking the police all the time.

When you take something like the flag protests as an example they

were out attacking the police for their actions so let's not say this

is an absolute support in one way or another. If the police do something

wrong I will be the first out to criticise them. Geoffrey also said

about the family of Jean McConville, one of the first things that Gerry

Adams said was this was a terrible injustice done to a family. To see

another injustice will not help the first injustice. The role thing is

ratcheted up when people hear Gerry Adams -- Martin McGuinness saying

his party will have to rethink their support of the PSNI if Mr Adams is

charged. Went Gerry Adams was arrested instead of speaking to him

the whole thing was ratcheted up. Nobody is arguing that anyone should

be above the law. They have done it in the mouth of an election when

they have had this so-called evidence which is very dubious in

any case, they have had that for ten months and they were questioning him

in the 1970s, this is a fishing exercise. He is being question

now... You do not actually know that. That is my opinion. Unless you

want to bring some police officers here I will give my opinions. You

let the process take its course and you make the decision when the PSNI

decide what happens next. They could have done it some time ago or after

the election, the fact it was done at the time of the election and

taking our reader out who is crucial... Wouldn't that have been a

political calculation to say we cannot get ourselves involved at the

time of an election? You think that it's political? Fair enough, so then

you accept that equally the other decision is elliptical as well?

Gerry Kelly said it was a political decision to arrest him three weeks

before an election. I do not accept that. There is no pardon during the

run-up to an election. The police must be allowed to explain the

evidence they had. It is not our role to second-guess the police.

There is a specialist unit in Carrickfergus totally dedicated to

investigate the soldiers who were associated with the so-called bloody

Sunday. I never hear Sinn Fein saying that is political policing or

complaining about dedicated resources. What Sinn Fein want is

won the army and the police in the dock but they do not want a

Republican in the dock. That is not acceptable. We have already argued

that here is the police having all the evidence, knowing exactly who

the soldiers were involved in bloody Sunday, none of them being arrested

and in fact they know they have all the evidence there because there has

been an inquiry that brought all the evidence out. Will Sinn Fein

withdraw support for policing in Northern Ireland if Mr Adams is

charged? We believe in policing, we call the police to account and will

continue to do so. We will assess... So it is a possibility?

Parker McGuinness has been trying to get Peter Robinson to stand shoulder

to shoulder with him to go through things that have been going on.

Street yes or no? Is there any possibility Sinn Fein will withdraw

its support for policing if Mr Adams is charged? With respect to you, you

are not a lawyer and I am not in court. I will give the ands I want

to give. I am and sitting in my way. Let me answer. We will assess all of

this as we go on. What do you make of that answer? It is like what

Martin McGuinness has said, they will assess the situation, I can say

categorically DUP support for the police is unequivocal. Did you hear

what the justice minister said yesterday when he talked about

pressure being put on the police why everyone when it suits them. The DUP

has not put pressure on any judge or anyone at any time. We will

criticise the police if we think they get something wrong. ) that is

exactly the point, you are allowed to do that but Gerry Kelly is not?

There is the difference between criticising the police and

supporting the police. We support the rule of law. Did you see that

extract earlier? He went on to say that they would monitor the

situation. Our position is clear and our support for the police is

unequivocal. He did not give you a straight answer, as I have. Gerry

Kelly did not say that. We need to leave it there. Thank you both.

The woman at the centre of this investigation, Jean McConville, was

abducted and murdered in 1972. Members of her family have talked

about their thoughts this week. Personally speaking, if anybody is

going to trial, I don't think they should be going to the courts in

Northern Ireland. They should be in the Hague for war crimes, because

this is a war crime. It was ordered by people on the streets. It was an

army that took my mother away. They kidnapped, beat her up for the

length of time that they did, for six or seven days. They tortured her

for six or seven days, and then they took and they executed her. I said

in 1994, the first time I spoke about my mother, I said that I will

campaign for her until the day I die. If anything happens to be, I

have five children who will carry on campaigning for the truth. Helen

McKendry there. Whatever happens to Gerry Adams Ladies Day, whether he

is charged or released, what impact will it have?

Mike Nesbitt and Alasdair McDonnell idea, and the Alliance Party's

deputy leader Naomi Long. How big a bigger lobby in this morning? This

is a proper crisis. Jean McConville's family have been windy

-- waiting 42 years for Gerry Adams to be questioned. It is entirely

self-serving of Sinn Fein to complain that it took the police

seven weeks to respond to the offer from Gerry Adams that he would speak

to them. A man whose name has been associated with a seamless crying

for decades -- a heinous crime for decades office speak to the police.

The police taken up on that offer. Thirdly, the police are attacked by

Sinn, accused without evidence of having a cabal of senior

officers... The timing is important. Gerry Kelly said that three weeks

before people go to the polls North and South of the border, their party

leader is arrested in inaction with something that happened in 1972. And

who is responsible for the timing tee-mac Gerry Adams. He initiated

the process. Last night, I watched the TV coverage of the rally. A

senior Republican introduced Martin McGuinness by saying, how gave a --

how dare they touch our party leader? Does that suggest that Gerry

Adams should be above the law? That is an explicit technician --

admission. They believe that Gerry Adams, and others, are untouchable

in terms of the law. Howdy respond to that, Alistair MacDonald? Simply,

and I don't see this as being primarily about Gerry Adams all the

police, but it is about justice. Jean McConville was kidnapped,

tortured and murdered and buried secretly. It is a heinous crime, a

vile crime, and her ten children were left orphans. They have been

looking for justice for 40 years. It has now become a political issue.

Mike Nesbitt says we are now in a proper crisis. I am not sure we are

in a proper crisis. How would you describe it? I think there is an

amount of spin around it. There is justice required here. The SDLP are

family. We worked through the family.

process and we are still prepared to work with them. Is political

policing responsible for the decision to arrest Gerry Adams at

this time, decision to arrest Gerry Adams at

political policing involved in this. I quite simply

political policing involved in this. voluntarily going to the police, and

he chose the timing. Basically, voluntarily going to the police, and

may or may not have been aware of prepared for

may or may not have been aware of detained him, but Gerry Adams chose

the timing. detained him, but Gerry Adams chose

reservations about the process? I believe we are

reservations about the process? I our actions. I believe the police

are responsible to question any of us who are suspect all have evidence

to give about a crime. Therefore, the police had -- if

to give about a crime. Therefore, not detained him and they had

to give about a crime. Therefore, evidence to detain him, and I

to give about a crime. Therefore, like to see that, but there are so

to give about a crime. Therefore, pieces of the jigsaw here, that none

to give about a crime. Therefore, of us are in a position of the full

facts. A decision to question him, is that political or not? There are

sharply contrasting views of the situation. Both of them aggregate it

when it suits them about the rule of law and throughout the accusation

about political policing when it is someone in their camp who is being

arrested. It is not actually a sap -- has sharply divided as you think.

The truth of the matter is that the police have a job to do and they

must do it in partially. They have to follow when the evidence leads.

The judge has extended questioning for another 48 hours because they

believe there is the questioning continued -- continuing. None of us

are above the law. The people at the heart of this Arnotts Gerry Adams

and Sinn Fein, not the Unionist parties or Stormont or the

politics. The thing at the centre of this is the murder of Jean

McConville and her family's desire for justice. That has to be the

focus, and I think throwing around this political policing all the

time, the bottom line is that if somebody does something wrong or

requires the police to question them about it, that is not political

policing, that is policing. So Sinn Fein have got this wrong? Byes. This

needs to follow due process. This needs to go through the normal

course of law. Gerry Adams is innocent until proven guilty. He has

that right like everyone else, but he has no right to demand that his

questioning or the treatment of him as a potential witness in this

situation should be any different to any other person in society. And yet

you saw how Gerry Kelly reacted, similar to the way that Martin

McGuinness and other Sinn Fein spokespeople have reacted, saying

that that is political policing, there is a Kabbalah, the timing was

deliberate. The timing is what it is. If they delayed until after the

section, that would be political policing. If you take into account

the electoral cycle, when you are undertaking your job as a police

officer, then clearly that is a political decision. If you follow

the lead is where they go and you do the job, that is not political

policing. That is policing. Increasingly, people in the public

are getting fed up listening to politicians throwing around

accusations about political policing, whether it is Gerry Kelly

on the bonnet of a Land Rover, or outbursts on Facebook, people are

tied on it on both sides. We need support for the police and the rule

of law which is unequivocal and direct. What about the language used

by Mike Nesbitt about Peter Robinson? I quoted earlier, talking

about reassessing Sinn Fein's attitude towards the arrest. I put

the pointy Jeffrey Donaldson, that is arguably not helpful in the

current cauldron politics that we find ourselves in. Last night, Alex

Mackie was speaking to air UK wide audience, and he said that we will

support, we can support what we want. What does that mean? It is not

that long ago that Sinn Fein would not condemn the IRA for murdering

and for maiming police officers. What happens now? If a young

nationalists came to me and said, I was thinking about a career in the

PSNI, could I say, go for it. Should I not be worried that he will end up

like Stephen Carroll and Roman kirk? Don't you have to balance that

with what Martin -- Martin McGuinness said about fully

supporting the PSNI in the proper discharge of its duties? You can't

cherry pick. You cannot cherry pick support for the rule of law, and if

we all agree that the police should be operationally independent, we

should all be at home today waiting for eight o'clock to see what the

police do. If we have concerns, we should be taking them to the

policing board. That is what we agreed in 1998. You reserve the

right to criticise the police as well, don't you? How many times have

I quietly gone to speak to the Chief Constable Matt Baggott what I do. I

asked to speak to the chief constable. I say, I want to hear

your side of the story. I will not go out and stand in front of the

cameras and make a big fuss. I have done it several times in the last

couple of years. The police think it is a sensible way to go forward. I

think it is a sensible way to go forward. What we have had is ramping

up in a detrimental way to building community, trust, mutual trust

between politicians... Alistair MacDonald, how important is support

for policing and maintenance of devolution? There is a lot of spin

and Peter Robinson's, as were unhelpful. They are an

electioneering around a situation. This is about justice and truth. It

is about dealing with the past, and we have to deal with the past and

deal with this in the context of the McConvilles, and victims and

survivors generally. That is where we have to take this, not worrying

about the political spin is that I put on it. A final thought? We

should be concerned when people are threatening to sit -- withdraw their

support from the police. It is a serious matter when people bandy

about words like political policing, something which politicians on both

sides have done. What we need to do is recognise that all the crises we

have faith in the last few months have arisen from a lack of our

ability to deal with the past in a copper hands of way. We have to take

this forward into a peace process with credibility. Thank you for

joining us. Time to look back at the political beat in 60 seconds.

Gerry Adams was arrested over the murder of Jean McConville in 1972.

The Sinn Fein president continued to deny any part in the crime. I will

tell the PSNI that I am innocent of any abduction, killing or burial of

Jean McConville. The McConville family believe that the Sinn Fein

president was involved. I have always believed that Gerry

Adams was involved in the murder of my mother, and until the day I die,

I will believe that. For the third time in 18 months,

MLAs debated but did not pass a motion calling for the legalisation

of gay marriage. The traditional values of marriage is the bedrock of

any stable society. The Assembly remembered an independent MLA, but

it emerged that his former assistant will follow him into the chamber.

Some MLAs got little rowdy. The culture minister had that number. It

is like bingo! The culture minister comparing DUP

MLAs to "oul dolls at bingo". Similar O'Connor and Liam Clarke are

with me now. An interesting exchange of views this morning. What have you

made of what you have heard, Fionnuala O'Connor? There is a lot

of spin and froth. I would be inclined to talk this all down, not

just because I would like to, the because people have got themselves

exercise and have other spoken. I wonder if Sinn Fein really have

thought this through. They have done what they do very well, reacted on

the hoof, marshalled their forces in a political sense. But I listened

yesterday to someone saying, what we need to establish now is at what

stage Gerry Adams will end this conversation with the PSNI. At that

stage, I don't know whether Sinn Fein were thinking they would play

this in a very lofty and idealistic way and say that he is helping

police with their enquiries, we are happy to help and we want to help

the McConville family. Perhaps they thought they should handle it like

that, and perhaps they should have. May be that changed when he was

arrested and held for a further 48 hours. That is definitely a part of

it. They are reflecting a lot of anger on the ground among their

people and they are trying to manage that. They are trying to manage and

in the North on the ground. They are trying to manage electoral prospects

in the South will stop in the middle, they have come out saying,

political policing, and that is a hard one to get off, hard for the

police holding Gerry Adams, no doubt not listening to television and

radio as they do so, but definitely under pressure now to hold him for

longer or perhaps to place a charge when they may think there is no

evidence to do it. It is a challenge for Sinn Fein to criticise policing,

to which they are fully committed to this strange -- at this stage?

Lasting damage will be done out of this. People have other spoken --

other spoken. You will have a situation where, if Gerry Adams is

not charged for proper reasons if there is no evidence, people might

say, pressure, that is what gets you off. They will think it is worth

trying. And I think that Sinn Fein by saying, there is still a cab

while at the top of the police, they are giving entitlement to the idea

that they signed to something without examining it. I am not sure

Sinn Fein mean that, but they are creating a situation. It is bad that

the two parties cannot in some way toward making themselves to start

writing this down. You wrote a piece in the Telegraph yesterday, making

the point that if Gerry Adams is not charged, there will be those who

call the conclusion that the PDF and PSNI have caved in under pressure

from Republicans. It is bad in a democracy and you could not imagine

it happening in Britain, or the South, a party threatening the

police. You are creating a situation where people assume that pressure

will work if Gerry Adams is not charged. There is a likelihood that

he will not be charged. Is the PSNI dammed if they do and stand if they

don't? Yes, the police in every society says that situation. It is

comical to listen to saying it is dreadful -- listen to them saying

that they will withdraw support from the police. I remember Ian Paisley

shouting at police, don't come crying to me, when he was being

carried out of Stormont after a long process. What happens next? It will

all depend on if Gerry Adams is charged or not. If he is released,

there will be a scenario. The worst would be if he is charged with

membership and nothing else. We will see what happens later today

perhaps. Thank you very much both. There will be an extended news

report tonight at 10:15pm.