11/05/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, where we're talking

about the Europe-wide contest that really matters.

about the Europe-wide contest that The European elections. There are

local elections across England too on May 22nd. The party leaders are

campaigning ahead of polling day. The results could be a pointer to

the Big One, May 2015. We'll be speaking to the man in charge of

Labour's election battle plan. Has the opposition really got its sights

set on all-out victory in 2015? Or will it just be content with

squeaking home? And you can't mention elections these days without

talking about the impact of this man, Nigel Farage. I'll be asking

Coming up in Northern Ireland: him if UKIP really

Coming up in Northern Ireland: Another row between the first and

deputy first ministers in of Giro fever.

And election fever. We hear from the smaller parties hoping to make it

big. smaller parties hoping to make it

difference to the way you vote? And I'm joined by three journalists

guaranteed to bring a touch of Eurovision glamour to your Sunday

morning. With views more controversial than a bearded

Austrian drag act and twice the dress sense, it's Nick Watt, Helen

Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So you might have thought you've already heard

David Cameron promise an in-out referendum on EU membership in 2017

if he's still Prime Minister. Many times. Many, many times. Well he

obviously doesn't think you've been listening, because he's been saying

it again today. Here he is speaking to the BBC earlier. We will hold a

referendum by the end of 2017. It will be a referendum on an in-out

basis. Do we stay in a reformed European Union or do we leave? And

I've said very clearly that whatever the outcome of the next election,

and of course I want an overall majority and I'm hoping and

believing I can win an overall majority, that people should be in

no doubt I will not become Prime Minister unless I can guarantee that

we will hold a referendum. Here's saying there that an overall

majority there will definitely be a referendum. If these are the

minority position, he won't form a new coalition unless they agree to a

referendum, too. The Lib Dems a pulmonary agree to that. They

probably will because the Prime ministers have a strong argument

which is I gave you a referendum back in 2010 so the least I need is

theirs and the Lib Dems are the only party who have stood in recent

elections on a clear mandate to hold a referendum, so it is difficult for

them to say no, there was interesting the interview he did

earlier today. He named everything was going to ask for. The most

controversial with him, as he said in his speech last year, he wants to

take Britain out of the commitment to make the European Union and ever

closer union. That is a very big ask, but the point is, he may well

get it because the choice for the European Union now, France and

Germany, is a clear wonderful do Britain in or out? Previously, it

was can you put up with a British prime ministers being annoying? I

think you'll find the answer is they are willing to pay a price but not

any price to keep Britain in. In this scenario, Labour would have

lost the election again because we are talking the slowly happen if Mr

Cameron is the largest party or has an overall majority. Could you then

see Labour deciding we had better go along with a referendum, too? I

think that's unlikely because as I think that's unlikely because

there's a huge upside for that for I think what's interesting is the idea

he would for minority government. Would you get confidence and look at

other options that might well happen with the way the arithmetic is going

or is he going to hold out and say the only way I will be Prime

Minister is in a majority Conservative government? No, the

implication of his remarks was I wouldn't form a coalition government

unless my coalition partners would also agree to vote for a referendum.

He's basically talking about is negotiating strategy in those

coalition talks. It's a red line and a huge opportunity for the Lib Dems,

because they know David Cameron absolutely has to do, for accidental

reasons, as a person who survives as Tory leader, to ask for that

referendum, so they can ask anything they want in return and if I was

Nick Clegg, I would work out in the next year one absolute colossal

negotiating demand for those coalition talks. For a party around

10% in the polls, they will do have the Prime Minister over a barrel on

this one, assuming that coalition talks goes well. They could make

Michael Gove Tbyte meeting. OK, we need to move on. So, the politicians

are out and about on what used to be called the stump ahead of local and

European elections in less than two weeks' time. But, without wanting to

depress you on a damp Sunday morning, the party strategists are

already hard at work on their campaign plans for the General

Election next May. Yes, it's less than a year to go. They may have

taken their time, but Labour's battleplan for 2015 is starting to

take shape. As well as take promising to freeze your energy

bills, and reintroduce the 50p rate of tax, Ed Miliband now says he

wants to intervene in the housing market to keep rents down. There's

even talk that the party leadership wants to bring more railway lines

into public ownership. And Labour is gambling that its big push on the

cost of living will see it through to the general election despite

evidence that growth is firmly back. Labour's campaign chief Douglas

Alexander hopes it all adds up to victory next May. But so far, the

evidence is hitting home very thin. One survey today shows that 56% of

people don't think Mr Miliband is up to the job of Prime Minister. As we

head towards one of the least predictable general elections in 70

years, has Labour got a message to win seats up and down the country?

And Labour's election co-ordinator and Shadow Foreign Secretary,

Douglas Alexander, joins me now. Welcome to Sunday Politics. A lot of

these policies announced polar pretty well. By popular with the

country. When you add them together, it's a move to the left and what

would be wrong with that? I think is your packet suggests, the contours

in the coming campaign are becoming clear. Our judgement is the defining

issue of the year in British politics will be the widening gap

between the wealth of the country and the finances of ordinary

families. We believe it will be a cost of living election and we have

been setting out our thinking in relation to energy prices and rent,

but you will hear more from Labour Party in the coming months because

we're now less than one year away from a decisive moment. If the

leftish think tank suggested any of his policies in that Tony Blair

years, you would have opposed them. Let's be clear, when not going for

an interest but seeking to secure a majority for the only way to do that

is not simply to appeal to your base, but to the centre ground. I

believe we got genuine opportunities in the next year. You have the

Conservatives in a struggle with UKIP on the right of politics. The

Lib Dems 9% of trying to find their base, and there's a genuine

opportunity in the next year for Labour to dominate the centre ground

of politics and secure the majority Labour government we are planning

for in the coming year. I notice you didn't deny you wouldn't have

opposed. You say you have got an message for aspirational voters in

the South. This is what John Denham said. He thinks you're talking too

much to your core vote. He is right to recognise we took a

terrible beating in 2010. 29%. If you look at what we've done in the

last week, for example, the signature policy on rent Ed Miliband

announced to launch the campaign, there's now more than 9 million

people in the country in the private rented sector, more than 1 million

families. Many of them are in the south-east. They are seeing

circumstances where, suddenly, landlord will increase the rent and

they put the pressure involved in schooling, health care facing the

families, so it is important both in terms of policy and in terms of

politics that we speak to the whole country, not simply to one part of

it falls up what is the average rise in event last year? I don't know.

Can you tell me? 1%. 1% not in real terms. I'm not sure what the problem

is. It will happen to wages in last year, we are facing circumstances

where people will be worse off, up to ?1600 off worse and frankly, if

our opponents want to argue that the economy has healed and they deserve

a victory lap, good luck to them because actually, what we are

hearing from the Buddhist public, not just in the north and south, is

not the cost living crisis is continuing and it affects families.

There was nothing aspirational about your party election broadcast for

the European elections. It looked like crude class war to money

people. That's a bit of it. Bedroom tax. Isn't it going to look bad that

two thirds of those affected are disabled? Who cares? They can't

fight back. Shall be lay-offs and NHS nurses? The National Health

Service? Oh yes. Mr Cameron? Who said that? Me. My gosh. The man has

shrunk. He's actually shrunk. What shall we do with him? Can we hunt

him? Nothing about Europe, Labour policy.

him? Nothing about Europe, Labour result in negative campaigning and

smear. You didn't tell you would be result in negative campaigning and

to have most people reaching for the remote control these days are the

words, there now follows a party but the broadcast. I make

words, there now follows a party but the factory to be innovative in how

we presented. It's factual. It the factory to be innovative in how

policy -based critic of this government. And the Lib Dems role

within it. So you're claiming it's factual to betray the camera and

cabinet is not even knowing factual to betray the camera and

NHS is, -- the Cameron Cabinet. They attack the disabled because they

can't fight back. The Pinellas Tanner severely Prime Minister Sun

and he was treated during a short life by the NHS. It's a fact many

disabled people across the country including in my constituency have

been directly affected by the bedroom tax. And ultimately, this

Conservative led government, including the Lib Dems, will be held

accountable by the politicians. You say that, the Prime Minister, who

had a severely disabled son of. I you not ashamed about? I shadowed

Iain Duncan Smith of five months also they don't have the excuses of

seeing that saying nobody told them the consequences of the bedroom tax.

They went into this with their eyes open. They knew about the hardship

and difficulty. If they were one-bedroom properties available

across the country for people to move into, their argument would be

OK but they knew they were dealing with the most vulnerable people. Did

you sign off that part of the broadcast? Of course I stand by the

fact of it. I wish David Cameron and Iain Duncan Smith would apologise to

the disabled people of the country and the poorest people for the

effects of the bedroom tax. I hope we get that apology between now and

election. As someone who thinks integrity is important in politics,

not ashamed of this kind of thing? It's important we scrutinise the

policies of this government as well as adding a positive agenda for

change. You want that you won't promise this is the last time we'll

see such a negative press campaign? I don't think it is negative or

personal to scrutinise the government. So we'll get more of

this? I'm less interested in the background of the cabinet than their

views. You call the upper-class twits. It's for the British public

to make a judgement in terms of the British... That's how you depicted

them. We are held in accountable for the bedroom tax, the NHS, taxation,

and our record they have to defend. One reason are so fearful in this

election is actually because they know they have a poor record. Let's

look at other part of the election campaign. This poster. Particularly

digitally doing the rounds. On that shopping basket, can you tell us

which items take the full 20% VAT? It's representative of household

shopping, which includes items like cleaning products, and we know that

food is not that trouble. People don't go to the supermarket and say

this is -- vatable. So you are denying that ?450 extra is being

paid? Yes, where'd you get that figure? For an average family to pay

?450 a year extra VAT, they would have to spend ?21,600 a year on

vatable products at 20%. The average take-home pay is only 21,009. They

have got to spend on all sorts of things which are zero VAT. So in

addition to the items, has a range of products people face in terms of

VAT. How could an average family of ?21,000 a year spent 21,006 and the

pound a year on 20% vatable items? It's not an annual figure, is it? So

what is it then? If it's an annual, what is it? The increased VAT in

this parliament is calculated over the course of a Parliament. For the

whole of the Parliament? And you're illustrated this with a shopping

basket which almost has no VAT on it at all? People will be buying a

weekly shop in the course of this Parliament every week. Did you sign

off on this as well? Of course. It didn't dawn on you you're putting

things on it which have no VAT? If you want to argue some people go to

the shops and say these are vatable or not, I disagree. Even your rent

cap announcement went wrong. You're working on the rent rises and it

turns out it wasn't. It was a post your policy. It is the exception

rather than the rule to have the position we have at the moment. In

Northern Ireland we have seen the continued rise in terms of the

rented sector but there is a widespread recognition that for

those people in the rented sector, change is necessary. Are you

coordinating this campaign? It seems accident prone. This is a party that

has set the agenda more effectively than a Conservative party that said

when David Cameron was elected he wasn't going to bang on about

Europe. The day after the election we expect the Conservative party to

be engulfed in crisis. I'm proud of what we talk about and I think there

is a clear contrast about a party talking about issues people care

about, and a Conservative party talking about exclusively a

referendum. Are you in charge of the campaign? I am coordinating the

campaign is, yes. The expensive election guru you have hired, has he

been involved in any of this? We have started our discussions with

him. You are going to have to brief him about British politics because

he doesn't know anything about it. I make no apology for hiring him. He

has a lot of experience in winning tight elections and that is what we

are expecting. If you are expecting us to say, they have passed and we

have to hold them accountable, then I am sorry but we have a campaign

that holds the Government and the Conservatives to account for what I

think is a very hopeless record in government. Thank you.

He leads a party with zero MPs but his media presence is huge. He's had

an expenses scandal, but the public didn't seem to mind. He's got a

privileged background but he's seen as an anti-establishment champion.

Nothing seems to stick to him, not even eggs. I speak

Nothing seems to stick to him, not Nigel Farage. We'll talk to him in a

moment, but first Giles has been Nigel Farage. We'll talk to him in a

on the campaign trail ahead of elections that could make or break

the UKIP leader. Nigel Farage likes a stage, and at

this stage of the Euro and local election campaign he is, like his

party, in buoyant mood. They feel they are on the verge of what they

see as causing an earthquake in British politics. Today Nigel is

filling thousands seat venues and bigger. Not that there's much sign

of that at this press launch. But it's a threat with serious money

behind it, that they believe the media and the political elite just

haven't realised yet, much less learned how to counter it. Not that

it's all been plain sailing. Offensive comments from some

candidates has not only seen UKIP labelled as racist, but necessitated

a rally by the party to visibly and verbally challenge that. The

offensive idiotic statements made by this handful of people have been

lifted up and presented to the great British public as if they represent

the view of this party, which they do not. They never have and they

never will. APPLAUSE I don't care what you call us, but

from this moment on, please do not call must trust a racist party. We

are not a racist party. The need to say that is not just

about the European and local elections even at that campaign

launch it's clear UKIP's leader has set his sights firmly on the

ultimate prize. I come from the south of England and I would not

want south of England and I would not

heading to the north, north Norfolk or whatever it will be. I

heading to the north, north Norfolk my mind up and stand in the

heading to the north, north Norfolk election for somewhere in Kent, East

Sussex, Hampshire, somewhere in my home patch. Back at UKIP HQ they are

still drilling down how the last fortnight of campaigning should go.

They aren't taking any chances, and one imagines having offices above

those of Max Clifford is a reminder how fragile built reputations can be

of the bubble bursting. They want their reputation to be built on

votes and they know anything but significant success on May 22nd and

some seats in Westminster in 2015 isn't going to be good enough. And

after that, having sold yourselves as the honest outsiders, that stance

is harder to maintain once your people are on the inside. And subtle

changes from the past are already noticeable. The ordinary man of the

people stance is still working. Characteristically outside a pub,

Nigel Farage is glad handed by a customer. Two weeks to go, let's

cause an upset. Wouldn't that be great? The only sign that such an

interaction is different now is the ever presence of bodyguards who

shadow his every move. Over lunch ahead of Question Time, a radio

appearance, and then off to Scotland, I ask him if some of those

minded to vote UKIP who see him as a man they'd be comfortable having a

drink with are the sort of people he'd be entirely comfortable sitting

down with. Every political party attracts support from across the

spectrum and there will be some magnificent people who vote for us

and some ne'er-do-wells. The one common thing about UKIP voters is

that they are often not very political. And it's that people's

army that if UKIP can get to a polling booth might just create that

earthquake they want. Nigel Farage joins me now. When you

decided not to stand at the new work by election coming said if you lost

it that the bubble would have burst. What did you mean by that? I

was asked at seven 20p -- at 7:21pm if I would stand, I have decided by

the next morning that I would not. I didn't know he was going to resign.

You claim only a handful of UKIP candidates have ever said things

that are either stupid or offensive, I'm right on that, yes? 0.1%, I'd

rather it was non-. But why have you chosen a candidate to fight this

by-election that has said many things most people would regard as

stupid or offensive? Roger is fighting this for us, someone of 70

years of age who grew up with a strong Christian Bible background,

in an age when homosexuality was imprisonable. He had a certain set

of views which he maintained for many years which he now says he

accepts the world has moved on and he is relaxed about it. The comments

about homosexuality are not from the dark ages, they are from two or

three years ago. From when he was a Conservative, yes, so will you be

asking David Cameron that question? I have never seen a single comment

from Roger that would be deemed to be offensive. Do you regard his

comments on homosexuality as offensive? When he grew up,

homosexuality was illegal in this country. But this was in 2012 but he

said that. Most people have his age still feel uncomfortable about it --

of his age. In 2012 he said, if two men can be married, why not three,

why not a commune. Many people in this country are disconcerted by the

change in the meaning of marriage and in a tolerant society we

understand that some people have different views. But he has changed

his views now in only two years? He says he is more relaxed about it.

Was he your candidate? He is a first-class campaigner who has had

30 years in industry, he served in the European Parliament, he is a

good candidate. This morning's papers suggest you are about to

select Victoria Ayling for Grimsby, but she is on camera saying that, of

immigrants, I just want to send a lot back. This is all very

interesting, and we can talk about it, all we could talk about the fact

that in 12 days we have a European election and every voter across the

UK can vote on it and it is really interesting. Are you happy to pick a

candidate that says of immigrants, I just want to send a lot back? I have

seen the tape, it is a complete misquote and she says it in the

context of illegal immigrants. I have seen the full quote and in the

context it is not about illegal immigrants. Let's come onto the

European campaign, you have used a company that employs Eastern

European is to deliver leaflets in London and the Home Counties. Have

we? I'm told that in Croydon one branch might have done that. Have

you found some indigenous Brits to deliver leaflets in Europe? We have

thousands joining the party every month and they are not all

indigenous because what is interesting is that in today's

opinion polls, UKIP is above the Lib Dems and the Conservatives amongst

the indigenous voting. We have not agreed a manifesto for

the general election, we will do over the course of the summer. This

is in your local election. We are having local elections in some part

of the country but we are fighting a European election. It is impossible

with the British media to have an intelligent debate on the European

question. But as I say, we are also fighting the local elections too.

You have promised these tax cuts, how much will they cost? I have met

-- read the local election manifesto and it doesn't make those promises.

We do talk about local services, we do talk about the need to keep

council tax down but we don't talk about income tax. Absolutely not. In

local election campaigning you say you would restore cuts to policing,

double prison places, restore cuts to front line NHS, spend more on

roads, how much would that cost? You are obviously reading different

documents to me. We are voting for local councillors in district

councils who have got little local budgets. Every party in a manifesto

puts his aspirations in it. Have you read it? Of course I have, cover to

cover, which is why I'm saying you are misquoting it. By the way, on

the bubble bursting, you told that to Norman Smith of the BBC. 75% of

British laws are now made in the European Union. Now AstraZeneca is

potentially going to be taken over by Pfizer. The BBC is refusing to

show the public that that decision cannot be taken here but by an

elected European commissioner, and we sit and argue about what is in or

not in the local election manifesto. It is my job, but let me come on to

AstraZeneca. Is it your view that a British government should stop the

takeover of AstraZeneca? It cannot. Can we please get this clear. I sat

next to Chuka Umunna the other day at question time and he said what

could and couldn't be done. He said I am being studiously neutral, and

the reason is we don't have this power. That is what the European

elections is about. Should France have the takeover of the food

company Danan? We seem to do things to the Nth degree and nobody else

does, perhaps because we have this culture and we obey it. In your

view, you don't think Pfizer should be able to take over AstraZeneca?

There is some good science within AstraZeneca which is in danger of

being asset stripped and lost. Because it is run by a Swede and a

Frenchman and most of its employees are overseas. I understand that but

there are still some good science being produced here. What did you

think of the Prime Minister saying he would not form a government after

the election unless he was able to have a referendum in 2017? I sat

here talking to you and you said to me that David Cameron had given a

cast-iron guarantee that if David Cameron becomes Prime Minister he

will have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, but he didn't deliver on

that. He knows that people struggle to believe the renegotiation is

worth a row of beans. He is saying he will not form a government unless

he can go forward with the referendum. I know he is desperately

trying to pretend to be Eurosceptic whilst at the same time saying he

will campaign for Britain to remain in. In a sense, that is what this

election is about. We have three traditional parties, all of whom

passionately believe in the continued membership of the European

Union and we have UKIP saying we want trade and cooperation but there

is a bigger and better world out there. You are now travelling with I

think four bodyguards, has this affected you and your family life? I

can't stand it. I've always wondered about the place and on my own thing.

Sadly we have a couple of organisations out there headed up by

senior Labour Party figures who purport to be against fascism and

extremism, who received funding from the Department of communities, from

the trade unions, who have acted in a violent wait more than once. You

are saying the Labour Party is behind the threats? No, I said a

taxpayer funded, trade union funded and headed by senior Labour Party

figures, and I'm happy for them to come to my meetings and have an

itinerant with me, but it's not so much fun when there are banging you

over the head. I is still keen to be an MP? Yes, what UKIP will then do

is target before the general election next year for the one life

be easier if you just went to the Lords? That's the last thing I want

to do. There's an awful lot to do. Most of all, I will not rest until

we are free from political union and government from Brussels. Nigel

Farage, thank you for being with us. It's just gone 11.30am. You're

watching the Sunday Politics. We say Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

in Northern Ireland. Stormont may have turned pink for

the Giro, but should we have red faces as another row erupts between

the First and Deputy First Ministers when our Italian guests are in town?

So is it electioneering, or just another example of how difficult

their working relationship has, in fact, become? It's a matter of

recognising that we do face serious challenges. I don't think dragging

those controversial issues to enabling like this is the right

thing to do. And as we countdown to Election Day,

we hear the pitch from four of the smaller parties aiming big on May

22nd. And joining me this week to discuss

all of the above in this slightly longer programme are the former

Victims' Commissioner, Patricia McBride, and News Letter's political

correspondent, Sam McBride. They're usually on their best

behaviour when Northern Ireland finds itself hosting a major event,

but with the eyes of the world on us for the opening of the Giro

d'Italia, a new row has erupted between the first and deputy first

ministers. Martin McGuinness accused Peter Robinson of cowardice and of

showing no leadership in east Belfast. The DUP has described the

comments as outrageous. So is it just electioneering, or are the two

men really struggling to hold their working relationship together? Some

are asking how much longer they can continue to grin and bear it. Here's

how they handled a joint interview just hours after Martin McGuinness

hit out at his partner in government. A lot of things have

been said over the course of the last ten days. Tonight, this is

about the Giro. They're been plenty of opportunities for people to say

what they want, in terms of their view. And that has been the same

opportunity for me. I'm not going to dwell on that tonight, we've had our

say. It is a matter of recognising we face serious challenges. I think

everybody recognises what tonight is about. It's a showcase event for the

Giro. I don't think dragging those controversial issues to an evening

like this is the right thing to do. We are agreed on many things. Of

course there are many things we disagree on, but we agree on having

major events, we agree on having investment and we will continue to

push those issues. Let's see what my guests of the day

make of that. Joining me are Patricia McBride and Sam McBride. No

relation! Sam McBride - Mike Nesbitt says it's

an example of dysfunctionality and mixed messages at the heart of

government. Is he right? Certainly a large element of faster burst,

because it's becoming so common to lurch from Peter Robinson and Martin

McGuinness to laughing together and joking together to having these

extraordinary outburst against each other. There is always an element of

tension in any coalition government, particularly here, where

the two leaders are so radically different in their outlook, but it

does seem that in the past year things have really gotten a lot

worse and the issue of welfare reform has recently reignited this.

I don't think it is just about Alex nearing. -- electioneering. I think

there is that element of discomfort in the relationship, one that did

not exist previously. There is certainly a fear within the DUP of

having to cosy relationship. That is something they were criticised in

the past and they will be wary of that, especially coming up to an

election. The difficulties for the Coalition Government here are that

they must work together. It is mandatory. So they are going to

they must work together. It is to get over it and find ways of

being civil to each other to effect positive change.

In the midst of this row about lack positive change.

of leadership, it's emerged that the DUP was being entertained to drinks

with the PM at Number Ten. DUP was being entertained to drinks

Guardian ran the story and here's the paper's political editor, Nick

Watt, with his thoughts on what's going on... The point about this

meeting, this reception, was that the DUP felt it was quite lavish, he

was wooing them, the Prime Minister was having an eye to what you might

need in a year's time. He might need their help if there is another hung

parliament. Sinn Fein were complaining at the time that they've

not had this sort of treatment. Sinn Fein would not want to have drinks

in the Downing Street garden, but Martin McGuinness has said he would

like the Prime Minister to meet Sinn Fein as a party because they have

their concerns they would like to raise. Obviously, Sinn Fein may have

five MPs but they don't take their seats at Westminster said they

wouldn't be much use in a hung Parliament. The DUP may not be

looking for political concessions. I think they will be looking for

cash, funding for pet projects and obviously under the new dispensation

in Northern Ireland the office of First Minister and Deputy First

Minister are joint, everything has to go together. So if the DUP is

able to wrangle extra cash out of London for Northern Ireland, we

probably find it would have to be distributed reasonably fairly. Sam,

do you think there is something significant going on? The DUP were

fierce opponents and critics of the joint conservative oldster project a

few years ago. That has completely gone away really now and we've seen

very small incremental steps. There was an interesting piece online, on

a grassroots conservative website where one backbencher was making an

argument for the sort of arrangement a few weeks ago. Patricia,

politicians do deals, they have private drinks. Is Sinn Fein right

to feel marginalised's well, the Unionist party are going to feel

that they are cosying up. I think it's highly inappropriate that such

a sensitive issue as victims was on at -- the agenda at a garden party.

Certainly what Nick was saying, it will be interesting to see what pet

projects the DUP is looking for funding for if they are going to

support a Conservative government in the next election. Interesting to

your thoughts. We will speak to you both more later.

It's taken Stormont years to agree on how many there will be, months to

debate what powers they will or won't have, and on May 22nd you'll

get the chance to decide who your representatives will be on one of

eleven new super councils. The re-organisation of local government

from 26 to 11 councils means Stormont is giving away some of its

powers to the new local authorities. From next April they'll have

responsibility for urban regeneration, economic development

and - most significantly - planning. Chris Page reports.

Spring is here, so it's time for pruning, cutting back councils, that

is. There are currently 26 local authorities, but they are being

trained to 11. But every gardener knows that pruning can stimulate

growth, and the seeds have been sown for a new season in local

government. Councils already have responsibility for all sorts of

things. For example, in this garden, council staff lovingly tend

to the plants and flowers every day. But the new local authorities will

take on a whole range of new powers. The new responsibilities include on

street parking, local economic development and tourism. Tied up

with all that, there is another very important change. By far the most

powerful is a range of planning powers, things the environment

Department has been doing. Things like making new plans for the local

areas, deciding most planning applications, apart from the most

serious, and things like planning enforcement as well. So when people

don't follow the rules of planning, the councils are going to step in.

This planning consultant thinks the transfer of powers to local governor

is a good move. It's a great thing. The 40 odd years we've had a

centralised planning body taking decisions on local planning issues

and local people have had an input, but not as much as there is likely

to be with the council is taking the decisions. Local representatives

reflecting properly what local people want for their area. The

changes may have big implications for entrepreneurs, but the

organisation which represents independent retailers says people

need to recognise the significance of what is happening. It is crucial

the private sector in gauges and build relationships -- in gauges and

builds relationships with these councils. I think it is a good

thing. They are setting an ambitious timetable and we need to ensure that

they hit the ground running and start delivering. And businesses may

regard as -- development in urban areas as one sign. The rise in

online shopping and the recession has hit the high street hard. The

generating town centres will be a major challenge for the new

councils. Here, several million pounds are being spent on

improvement works. Local entrepreneurs say the new councils'

extra powers should make a positive difference. I think the fact that

they are responsible for new generation in general means we can

actively work towards bringing more living into the city centre, more

office accommodation to increase the footfall in the city centre. So

there is a general package there that the council will be more in

control of. Outside towns and cities, planning is no less of an

issue. Farmers say they want councils to make consistent

decisions. I think what we want to see is that these larger super

councils do still have a local knowledge of what is required in

local areas. Certainly, still trying to retain that local aspect to

planning is going to be vitally important. I think the one thing

that stands out all the time is consistency in their decisions.

There will be challenges and choices ahead for councillors. The new local

authorities will take root after the elections. Planning can

authorities will take root after the issue, and whether the councils

blossom may depend on how well they handle it.

blossom may depend on how well they With me now to discuss their vision

for the new local political landscape are David McNarry from

UKIP, Professor John Barry from the Green Party, Richard Cairns from the

TUV and Basil McCrea from NI21. Where's the evidence that the new

councils will have Where's the evidence that the new

deal with controversial planning issues? Let me say first of all we

are talking about local government, and thank goodness. It is a big

thing and I wish all the candidates luck. It is a big thing for them to

but their names forward. We are talking about super-sized councils.

This is something new. They are going to be an amalgamation of

previous old councils. I welcome it could take up to ten years for these

councils to start delivering. In terms of planning issues, these are

massive issues being handed to them. One instance would be, quite

existing 26 councils and asked them existing 26 councils and asked them

turbines. None of them existing 26 councils and asked them

policy. So now we're handing this over to super councils, hopefully

they will develop policies. So we're going to have ten years of bad

policy-making's -- policy-making? Well, we have a different

identities. We want to introduce local referendums because we want

the people to actually have a voice in the local councils, particularly

viz super councils, where the amalgamations are going to be so

stretched you will be inviting people from one local area to

another local area. If David is right, that could be a disaster for

the Green Party. Could he be right? The reality is, this shift is really

about the founding of local government. In terms of planning, we

want community planning, we want people to have a say in the services

and facilities they want. And also transparency in politics. Argue is

we need a lot more transparently, including budgeting. We want to

involve more citizens in how we spend the money councils have. That

is an idea from Newcastle and Durham. It is sustainable

development. Had we encouraged local town centre regeneration and not

unsustainable out-of-town shopping centres... Which town centre? If the

council wants to put money into Bangor, people need to say that is

not fair. That is where I'm saying this transition is going to take

quite a while. Town development, you know, we need to have the villages

developed, let alone the towns! Foreign investment is not the right

way and out-of-town shopping centres... The rates are going to go

up and the people are really going to be in a dilemma. Do you think

these new councils will have the capacity to deal with this new

responsibility? It is very important for each and every of us. It is

indeed and I hope the new councils will have the capacity and we will

work together to represent our local communities. One thing I would like

to say about standing for council from a new party is I am Catholic, I

am black, I come from so many different parts of Northern Ireland

that I think one thing that the councils need to come up with is

what NI21 is about, and that is a united identity. Once we have that,

something we can all identify with, we can work together. That is the

big political picture, but what about the detail on the ground? Do

you have the experience and knowledge to deal with things like

planning legislation, economic generation, tourism? That is

actually what people want to hear when they are deciding who to vote

for. Yes, I do think we have the knowledge. These are the issues that

are key to people, but every party, the new powers are going to be new

to everybody. So, yes, we are new, but it is a new thing for everybody,

so it is probably the best time for NI21 to be coming into council. Does

it make sense for these new super councils to be given added planning

responsibilities? I think we will only know that in time. Have you got

reservations it might not be a good idea? As has already been mentioned,

there is a link between big developments and big parties.

Transparency issues, accountability, all that needs to be

done in detail when it comes to the councils. They need a level of

expertise. Have you got it? In terms of planning applications, I do a lot

about myself so I know beings and outs. But there is more to learn, I

think everybody as to say that. In terms of planning itself, there

needs to be a joined up approach from council to Council, a

consistent policy. And it needs to tie in with economic development.

We've talked about town regeneration, yes, there is a big

threat from out-of-town shopping. How do you combat that? There are

many derelict town centres. Putting up artwork in empty shops looks nice

but it is not fighting the problem. People need to be incentivised to go

into local areas. The opportunity with this reform is innovation at a

local level. What about having a municipal bond to raise funds in

terms of innovative projects? Do you think there is a possibility that

the new councils, when they get up and running and have to deal with

big issues like planning, tourism and economic development, that they

could be bedevilled by some of the day drudgery of politics in Northern

Ireland? Like, for example, flags? That is why I wanted to start the

idea of local referendums. Why not have a local referendum to decide

whether the council will or will not fly a flag. I think all politics are

local and that gets over a lot of hoops. It will be difficult enough

to get people to vote on May the 22nd, never mind another poll! Well,

going into Belfast council, they blighted the whole flag issue. What

is NI21 going to do when the flag issue comes up in Belfast city? I

don't want to talk about that specifically. Looking at the bigger

picture, what is NI21 as a party going to do about the flag issue

across the 11 new super councils? We would recommend flying flags on

designated days, we would recommend handing the flags debate away from

local councils and taking it back to an outside body. That's not local

democracy. You should have confidence in people to decide...

You just talked about a referendum. The big party political grab on a

lot of these issues as to be taken away from them. I'm talking about

local democracy, I'm saying, here is the controversial issue. There are

more important issues than flags, to be fair, but here's one issue. Let

the people in our locality decide. Why should it be that we want to fly

the flag in this area, but because of the decision made somewhere we

can't? What do you think the solution is? There was a prime

opportunity to deal with it when the government bill was going through

passage in the assembly. Parties had a prime opportunity to try to deal

with that before going through. At the minute, this is being passed to

each council to deal with. There could have been a wide-ranging

approach. I would say our policy is very simple. It is Belfast has

special status as the capital city of Northern Ireland and we believe

the flag should fly three and the 65 days a year in that City Hall.

Outside a Belfast, we believe in a policy called designated days plus.

If you could have one part of the council previously not wanting to

did fly the flag and the other part wanting to fly the flag, the two are

not wanting to meet. There are obviously a lot of emotions. If you

have a designated days policy across Northern Ireland, each council can

vote to increase it above that. They cannot have less than the designated

days. We think it is a very fair proposition. John, what is your

position? The Green Party's view is designated days, but it is also

about how do we combat our own generation of parties? With 11

councils there will be even more con -- confrontation. There will be more

minorities within bigger councils. But this is democratic politics,

this is a rough-and-tumble point of view. Democracy is not about always

agreeing, it is about respect the league disagreeing. So how can we

deal with these contentious issues in a way that is democratic? I

said, packed City Hall with those who want to support your particular

policy. And we shouldn't forget those are all big issues which may

colour people's votes. Let's pause now and reflect on the political

week gone past in 60 seconds. The victims commissioner proposes a

pension for those injured during the troubles. The First Minister said it

was not as simple as that. I will not be putting my hand to any

proposal that is going to reward those engaged in terrorism. A former

victims advocates that there can be no more delays. They need to

implement those proposals, no matter how difficult their riot -- how

difficult they are. More racist attacks on Polish homes. Peter

Robinson is accused of cowardice. This man has shown no leadership was

so all in east Belfast. In the Republic, the Justice Minister

finally resigns after a report criticising his department.

And a new phase who paid tribute to a precedent. And pretty in pink,

Northern Ireland goes our gap for the Giro. -- goes gaga.

Martina Purdy reporting. Let's hear again finally from Patricia McBride

and Sam McBride. Let's talk about the victims issue. You will obscene

the proposals. A pension for people badly injured has been suggested,

but Peter Robinson said he will have nothing to do with it if it benefits

people who are part of the problem. I think Peter Robinson needs to be

very careful about who use going to say shouldn't receive a pension. How

is he going to bet these people? Are ex-security people going to be put

through a vetting process to make sure they did not act

inappropriately during the conflict? The issue about how we deal with the

past is about getting the British and Irish governments involved

again. Do you think Richard is going to be brought back with some kind of

further attempt to solve the problem? When he last spoke, he did

not give any impression he was itching to get back here. On the

issue of victims and the pensions, it would be insane if someone who

planted a bomb was to be given a pension from taxpayers.

That's it from Sunday Politics. Join me for Stormont Today on BBC Two

tomorrow night at 11.20pm. For now, though, bye-bye.