18/05/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Good morning. Welcome to The Sunday Politics. Just four days to go until

election day, and be warned, coming to a street near you, a party leader

on a charm offensive. They all want your vote in the European elections

on Thursday, and in the local elections across England, too. Polls

are all over the place this morning. Your vote could make a

difference. This man is 11 points ahead in one poll, he has promised

an earthquake on Thursday, but what then? Our Adam has braved the

Coming up in an extended programme, campaign trail, he has been

Coming up in an extended programme, with just days to polling in the

local government election, the big with just days to polling in the

this week, a last look at local government election, the big

five parties local government election, the big

this week, a last look at the euro local government election, the big

five parties join this week, a last look at the euro

elections, this week, a last look at the euro

five parties join me this week, a last look at the euro

elections, and the 50th this week, a last look at the euro

five parties join me live this week, a last look at the euro

elections, and the 50th anniversary this week, a last look at the euro

five parties join me live to elections, and the 50th anniversary

of the first elections, and the 50th anniversary

five parties join me live to debate the challenges facing our news super

councils. the challenges facing our news super

of the first elections to London's 32 boroughs. I am in the studio,

with those who think they have got all the big answers. Nick Watt,

Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So, it is the European elections for

everybody on Thursday, local elections for England and a bit of

Northern Ireland as well. They are the last elections before the big

one, the 2015 general election. Some say that these European and local

elections will not be much of a pointer to how the big one goes. But

that will not stop political commentators and party gurus from

examining them closely. So, what is at stake? Thursday May the 22nd is

local elections and European Parliament elections.

These local results should be known by Friday. In the European

elections, all 751 members of the European Parliament will be elected

across Europe. 73 MEPs will be let it by people living in the UK. But

the results will not be announced until Sunday night, after voting has

closed throughout the 28 member states of the EU. Nick Watt, we are

in a position where the polls this morning cannot tell us what the

outcome is going to be on Thursday, and the general election is still

wide open - we really are in uncharted territory? Also it is

difficult to know where we are, because there is that ComRes poll

which shows an 11 point lead amongst those certain to vote for UKIP, and

another poll in the Sunday Times showing that it is a much more

slender lead for UKIP. But we know that will they win? We do not know,

but clearly they will unsettle the major parties. Fall or five months

ago, we assumed that the UKIP success would create panic in the

Conservative Party, but that has been factored into David Cameron's

share price. The Conservative Party is remarkably relaxed at the moment,

and I wonder whether this time next week, when we have the results,

whether the two political leaders who will be under pressure will be

Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg. Nick Clegg, because they could go down

from 12 MEPs to maybe just three or four. And Ed Miliband, because, one

year before a general election, he should be showing that he is a

significant, potent electoral force. So, they should all be

worried about UKIP, but whereas a couple of months ago, we would all

have said David Cameron was the one who should be worried, now, we are

saying it is Mr Miliband and Mr Clegg? And of the two, I think it is

Ed Miliband who should be worried. The Lib Dems are an incredibly

resilient party. He described his own party as cockroaches, and

incredible resilience! I think the Lib Dems are ready to take this one,

but I think Labour are really wobbly at the moment. What UKIP has done,

to England, it means that England has caught up with Scotland,

Northern Ireland and Wales, England now has a four party system, which

makes it all the more uncertain what the outcome will be? Yes, but

whether UKIP finish first or second, it will be the biggest insurgent

event since the European elections began in 1979. People talk about the

Greens in 1989, but I think they finished third. Were UKIP to win a

national election or even finish runner-up, it would be truly

historic. It is reflecting on something which is happening across

Europe, pianist in Italy, Holland, France and in this country. --

populist parties. And it makes first past the post look absolutely

ridiculous. You could be in a situation after the next general

election where Labour do not get the largest percentage of the vote but

they get the largest number of seats. First past the post works

fairly if there are only two parties, but when there are four...

We will talk more about that. Let's speak now to Suzanne Evans of UKIP.

She is at Westminster. Now, UKIP claims that there is going to be an

earthquake in British politics on Thursday. Suppose there is, what

does UKIP then need to do to become a more grown-up, proper party? I

think UKIP has very much become a grown-up, proper party. We have been

around for 20 years. What we are going to be doing after the European

elections, if we do cause this earthquake, and the polls are

looking like we are going to, is we will be firmly looking towards 2015,

getting our general election manifesto out, to keep those votes

on board from the euro elections and putting forward common-sense

policies which really will bring Britain back to the people. We want

to be able to hold the balance of power come the general election. If

we can do that then there will be a referendum. That will be our aim.

You say you are a more grown-up party, but when you look at the

stream of gaffes and controversies created by your candidates and

members, I will not go into them this morning, at the very least, I

would suggest you are needing a more robust system of selection? You

could say the same for the other three parties, who have been around

for a lot longer. They have got nothing like the embarrassments you

had. I am afraid they had. Just this week, since Monday, we have had 17

Liberal Democrat, labour or Conservative councillors either

arrested, charged or convicted on all manner of offences. In addition

we have had 13 who have been involved in some kind of racist,

sexist or homophobic incident. I am not saying I am proud of any of

that. The whole of politics probably needs to be cleaned up, but I

certainly do not think we are any worse than the other parties, who

have much greater resources than we do. Those other parties are even

putting people in power who they know have got criminal convictions

or who have previously belonged to far right, fascist parties like the

BNP. Can you continue to be a one-man band? The only time any

other UKIP petition makes the headlines is when they say something

loony or objectionable? We have a huge amount of talent in this party.

We have fantastic spokespeople across the patch, the huge amount of

expertise in the party. Inevitably the media focuses on Nigel Farage,

who is a fantastic, charismatic leader. But believe me, there is a

huge amount of talent. When we get our MEPs into power after the

European elections, we will see many more of them I think on television

and radio and in the newspapers. We are not a one-man band. Who runs

your party? The party is run by Nigel Farage, our leader. But he

spends all his time running between television studios and in and out of

the pub! You would be amazed how much he does, and of course we have

a National Executive Committee, like the other parties. So who runs it?

The National Executive Committee, in conjunction with Nigel Farage, the

MEPs, the spokespeople, it is a joint effort. Your Local Government

Minister Stosur is, if you vote UKIP, you go on to pledge that your

councillors will not toe the party line, how does that work? -- your

local government manifesto says... On the main policies, they will toe

the party line, because that is obviously what people will be voting

for. It is no good putting forward a manifesto like the Lib Dems did on

2010 and going back on it. We have put forward a lot of positive -- a

lot of policies at local government level, and those we will stick to.

But when it comes to individual, local issues, say, a particular

development or the closure of a school, whatever, UKIP then will

vote what they think is in the best interests of the people in the

borough, and not according to any party whip system. This plays out

really well on the doorstep, I find. People do not want their politicians

to be in the pockets of their party, putting party first, ahead of

the people. You want people to vote to leave the European Union in a

referendum - have you published a road map as to what would then

happen? Yes, there will be a road map. The Lisbon Treaty for the first

time gave us that exit opportunity. Have you published a road map? I am

not the legal expert on this but there are ways in which you can come

out of Europe fairly quickly. There is a longer you all as well. But

have you published any of that detail? Not that I have read. But

certainly there are ways to do it. We are the sixth strongest world

economy, I think we are in a strong position having left the EU to be

able to negotiate a very good trade deal with the European Union. It is

what people voted for in 1975. What would be our exact status? It would

be I think what people voted for back in 1975. An independent,

sovereign country in a trade agreement, a very positive and

valuable trade agreement with the European Union. I voted in that

referendum, I remember it well, 1975 involved the free movement of people

's... That is something which I do not think UKIP or the country wants.

70% of people now are deeply concerned about immigration. So it

would not be 1975, then? Andrew, it sounds like you are complaining that

we might have something which is better than 1975. I am just trying

to find out what it is! That sounds like positive to me. We will

negotiate a trade deal and all manner of issues, whatever is best

for the British people. We want our sovereignty back, we want our

country back. Would you be upset if a bunch of Rumanian men moved in

next door to you? Where I live, I am surrounded by one and two-bedroom

flats. If ten Rumanian men moved in next door to me, I would want to ask

questions. That is very different from say a Robinho family moving in

next door. I would think, are they being ripped off, are they up to no

good or are they perhaps being trafficked by a gang master? So I

think it would be of concern, and I do not think there is anything wrong

with that, it is a humanitarian approach. That would be different

from a family moving in who were learning to speak English, who

wanted to contribute to the British economy. Maybe if your boss is

watching, he will now have found out how to answer that question.

Now, what is more glamorous, 24 hours in the life of a

counter-terrorism agent, or 12 hours in the life of Adam Fleming, on the

campaign trail? I will let you make up your own mind. So, it is eight

o'clock in the morning here in Westminster. Today's challenge is,

how much campaigning for the local and European elections can we fit

into 12 hours? See you back here at eight o'clock tonight. Wish me

luck. With my cameraman and producer, we went to Thurrock in

Essex first. I got a very, very warm welcome from Abe buoyant UKIP. They

have never had this much attention. One candidate's misdemeanour ends up

on the front page. But you have got Lib Dem candidates being convicted

of racially aggravated assault, and that was not on the front pages of

the newspapers. Houdini is fine but it must be applied evenly. Have you

had to sack Thurrock UKIP members for dodgy tweets or anything? Oh,

God, no. Next we head to meet a top Tory in a different area. We are

heading to Eastbourne. But stuck in traffic. We are going to miss

William Hague. We got there, just in time, to ask the really big

questions. David Cameron went to Nando De Colo last week, where are

you going to go for lunch? I do not even get time for lunch. I think

something in the back of the car. We will go down the street and see what

people have got to say. Even the Foreign Secretary has depressed the

flesh at election time? Even the Foreign Secretary meets real people.

The message William Hague impresses upon everyone he meets is that the

Tories are the only party offering a referendum on our membership of the

EU. He's off for lunch in the limo. I've got five minutes by the beach.

This is the best thing about elections, lunch. Do you want one?

And chips are weirdly relevant at our next stop - the Green Party

battle bus which is parked in Ashford in Kent. What is special

about this vehicle? It runs from chip fat oil so it is more friendly

to the environment. But boss was boiling. The next stop is Gillingham

to see Labour. Labour have just hired Barack Obama's election guru

David Axelrod to help them craft their message. What does David

Axelrod know about the people who live on the street? I know the local

details but you handle those. Ed Miliband and his party have had to

handle a few dodgy opinion polls lately, prompting some leadership

speculation from one activist. Who is your favourite Labour politician?

Ed Balls. Back in the car and we're flagging. Final stop, Southwark in

south London. We are in the right place, this is Simon Hughes' Lib Dem

taxi. The Lib Dems are campaigning as the party of in. But are they in

trouble? Your party president said the party would be wiped out and

lose its MEPs. Is that helpful? If he did say that, then no, that's not

terribly helpful. And let's not forget, every London council is

having elections too. I have 40 minutes to get back to the office in

Westminster, which calls for something drastic, like this. After

212 miles, but will be make it home for eight? We have made it, aided,

12 hours of pure politics. Happy elections, everyone.

Adam Fleming impersonating Jack Bauer! Natalie Bennett is in our

studio, welcome back. The Greens used to be the upcoming party in

Britain, now it is UKIP. What went wrong? We are in a very good place,

looking towards travelling our MEPs and we could be the fourth largest

group in Parliament after these elections. More and more people are

recognising we are the only party calling for real change, the only

party saying we have two stop making poor, disadvantaged young people

over the mistakes bankers. You have made a strong pro-environment stands

synonymous with the politics of the left, why have you done that? Why

should an equal minded Conservative vote for you? I think one of the

reasons why many Conservatives, I met them in Chester where they are

stopping coalbed methane exploration, lots of Conservatives

are looking to vote for us beyond issues like fracking and the Green

belt, and many of them are concerned about the fact we haven't reformed

the banks. This morning we had the Bank of England chief coming out and

saying we have a huge house price bubble and people recognise that

many of the parties offering the same are not working. And yet the

polls show that the hardline greenery is not winning. We are

looking to travel our number of MEPs and we have people recognising that

we have to change the way our economic 's, politics and society

works so that everyone has sufficient resources within the

limits of the one planet because one planet is all we have got. You want

all electricity to be generated by renewables, is that right? So where

would the electricity come from on days when the wind is not blowing?

Most of the electricity is there. It is mature. We need to be hooked into

a European wide grid, we need a smart grid that will allow for

demand to be adjusted according to supply. So we would take French

nuclear power, would we? We need to work with a partnership across

Europe. We are being left behind and we are losing opportunities. 50% of

German renewable electricity is owned by communities and it stays

within communities, rather than the big six energy companies. So you

have still got to take the French nuclear power. What we need to

do... Nuclear is a dead technology, going down in the developed world.

At the moment the Government proposes the most expensive proposal

for Britain and yet the last two plans took 17 years to bring online,

way too slow for what we need now. We know what the Green council would

be like if you were to win more seats on Thursday because you run

Brighton. Your own Green MP joined strikers against the council, the

local Greens are at each other's throats, a council ridden with

factionalism, attempts to raise council tax to 5%, attempted coups

against the local Green leader by other Greens and you have had to

bring in mediators. If you look at the life of people in Brighton and

Hove, it has seen its visitor numbers go up by 50,000, it has

become the top seaside resort in Britain, we have seen GCSE results

going up significantly. These are the things affecting people's lives

in Brighton and Hove. 60% of Brighton and Hove people think life

is better and the Greens. We have a debate to be had from next year's

election and perhaps we can have that debate next year. But you hold

up Brighton as the way the city should be run? We have made huge

progress, we have found money to be brought into the city to improve

Green spaces. I was on the big ride in London yesterday, and we need to

change our roads so they worked the people as well as cars. Which side

of the picket line were you on in Brighton? With Caroline Lucas? I was

in London, travelling around as I do most days. From Penzance to

Newcastle and many areas in between. Probably a good move. Thank you. I'm

joined now by the Conservative MP, the Lib Dem MP Simon Hughes and

Sajid Javid. We want to see a European Union resolutely focused on

the single market, free trade, and only we can bring about that change.

Labour and Lib Dems are happy with the status quo, in fact they would

like more integration, and a UKIP party can not deliver the change.

Hilary Benn, at this stage positions usually romp home in European

elections and no party has gone on to form a government without winning

the European elections first. Now it suggests you could become second,

you haven't handled UKIP very well either. There is a lot of alienation

from politics around, globalisation has left some behind and people are

concerned about that but UKIP will not provide the answer. Nigel Farage

only talks about Europe. We are to hear it would not be in the

interests of British people to come out of Europe. We do want a season

change in Europe, for example we want longer periods when new member

states come in. We don't think child tax credits should be paid to

children not living in the UK, but Nigel Farage is also proposing to

charge us when we see the GP, to halve maternity pay, and he wants a

flat tax. UKIP is not the answer to the problems we face and we will

continue to campaign as we have done to show that we are putting forward

policies on energy prices, and in the end that is what people will

look for. Simon Hughes, you will be lucky to come forth. The voters

decide these things. Really? I never knew that. My response to the UKIP

question is that they get support because they have never been in

power, they are never likely. A bit like the way you used to never get

into power. I accept that, but now we are in government. The reality is

that laws made in Brussels, we make together by agreement, and it is the

case from the Commons figures that only seven out of 100 laws are made

in Brussels. Actually they have been shown not to be the only ones. 14

out of 100. If we were to come out of Europe, we would seriously

disadvantage our economics and the jobs... 3 million jobs depend on the

European Union. If the Conservatives comes third or even a poor second,

it will show that people don't really trust your promise about

European referendum. They have been there before, they don't trust you.

What we have already shown, despite being in coalition with Liberal

Democrats, we have shown progress on Europe, we have vetoed a European

treaty when people said we wouldn't, we have cut the European

budget which is something Liberal Democrats and Labour MEPs voted

against, we cut it by ?8 billion. But overall we are still paying

more. We have still cut it. We have taken Britain out of the bailout

fund that Labour signed us up to. We are now going to take that same

energy to Europe and renegotiate our relationship and let the British

people decide in a referendum. Why has Ed Miliband become such a

liability for your party? Even your own MPs are speaking out against

him. If you look at the polls, we have been in the lead almost

consistently. The voters will decide. Ed Miliband is a decent man,

but what really marks him out is that he is thinking about the

problems the country faces. Simon and Sajid both support the bedroom

tax, we will scrap it. Ed Miliband said the energy market doesn't work

for consumers, we will freeze energy prices while we change the system.

So why are his ratings even lower than Nick Clegg's? They will be

voted for next year in the general election, and if I were David

Cameron I would ask myself this question - the economy is

recovering, why is it that David Cameron and the Conservatives have

been behind in the polls? Because in the end the big choice in British

politics is between the two parties that say, if we sought the deficit

everything is fine, and Labour who say that there are things about this

country, the insecurity that has given rise for support for UKIP, and

we are the ones talking about doing something about zero hours

contracts. The more your leader bangs on about Europe, the worse

your poll ratings get. He is out of the kilter with British people. It

may not be a majority of people who think that we ought to stay in the

European Union, but when you speak to people about it, people

understand that we are better in them out. In the elections on

Thursday, that is not about who runs Britain, that is for next year. In

terms of the local councils, we have battles on the ground, like in my

community, where we are trying to take it back from the Labour Party.

Affordable housing has just not been delivered. We have delivered that in

office and we had admitted to that. -- we are committed to that. Labour

have actually demolished homes. So, people want more affordable homes.

One issue which is behind people's antipathy towards immigrants is that

they cannot get the affordable housing they need. We as a

government have delivered more affordable housing in this

Parliament -170,000 new properties earning and more, over the next

three years. That does not work out that very many per year. Overall

housing is a lot less than it was in 2006. Let me tell you, under the

Labour government, we lost nearly half a million affordable homes.

Fewer built than under Mrs Thatcher or under the coalition. What is your

last ditch message to the millions of Tory voters thinking of voting

UKIP on Thursday? First, what I would say is, Ed Miliband also said

that we should not tackle the deficit, it was not a priority. As a

result of our resolute focus, we now have the fastest growing economy in

the developed world, and more people employed than ever before. I am sure

you will have more chance to say that at the general election, what

is the answer to my question? We need a Europe which is focused on

free trade and the single market. Labour and Lib Dems are happy with

the status quo, we are not. We are the only party which can bring about

change, UKIP cannot bring about any change. Hilary Benn, why not have a

referendum on Europe? If you think like Nigel Farage that you should

get out of Europe, I do not agree with him, because Britain's future

lies in Europe. My message simply would be, vote for a party which

wants to tackle insecurity in the workplace, to give more security to

the 9 million people who are now privately renting, build more homes.

What Simon has just said about the coalition's housing record, it has

been appalling, the lowest level since Stanley Baldwin was Prime

Minister. With Labour, you have got a party which will freeze energy

prices, more childcare, policies which directly address the problems

which people face. I think the public will realise that. UKIP

offers absolutely nothing at all for the future of the country. You used

to be in favour of a referendum? We are in favour, we voted for one, we

have legislated for one. The next time there is a change between

Britain and Europe, in the relationship, there will be a

referendum. We have supported that. We voted for it. You would obviously

want to vote yes in any referendum. We would. But if you had one now, it

would be for coming out or staying in, and you are going to wait until

there is another step son shall transfer of powers to Brussels, and

then say to people, either vote for this substantial transfer or vote to

leave! Of course they will vote to leave! Yes, we are not natural

partners with the Conservatives, but we do not want to be distracted at

the moment by a referendum in the future in relation to Europe.

Because what we have done is built our own economy back. That has been

the priority. We do not want artificial priorities. The Tories

want an artificial date plucked out of the air for their own advantage.

We say, let's get on with being positive about being in Europe, and

many people on the doorstep absolutely understand that.

Yesterday, the Energy Minister said that he thought the party would be

willing to campaign for a British withdrawal from the EU if there was

not a successful negotiation, a successful repatriation, do you

agree with that? First of all, I am very optimistic... I got that I am

going into these negotiations with confidence but Michael Fallon is one

of your ministerial colleagues, he said that if we cannot get a deal on

substantial repatriation, then the party should be willing to campaign

for a British withdrawal - do you agree? My view is that I am

confident we will get a deal, and then we will put it to the British

people. But you will have to take a line. If you do not get substantial

repatriations, will you side with Michael Fallon all with the Prime

Minister, who seems to want to stay in regardless? I may only have been

in politics for four years, but I am not going to ask that kind of

hypothetical question. Every question I ask is hypothetical, that

is the fascination of the programme! I go into these negotiations with

complete confidence. If you look at our track record, it suggests we

will be successful. Hilary Benn, what is the difference between your

attitude and that of the Lib Dems towards a referendum? We have been

very clear that if it is proposed at sometime in the future, further

powers would be transferred, then, we would put that to the British

people in a referendum. That is the Lib Dem position. This is our

position, which I am planing to you. It would be an in-out referendum. We

would only agree to a transfer of powers if we thought that it was in

the interest of Britain. But we believe that Britain's place remains

and should remain in Europe, for economic reasons. But we also want

to see some changes in our relationship with Europe, and

electing Labour MEPs on Thursday will be a way of boosting that

argument. In what way is everything you have just said not entirely sell

my must with the Lib Dem position? I am not worried about that. --

entirely synonymous. It is the dividing line between us and UKIP,

because they somehow believe that Britain leaving the European Union

would be good for our economy. Truth is, it would be really bad, because

so many jobs depend on being part of a large market in an increasingly

globalised world. I have got one more question for you on the locals.

We seem to have lost our connection with Leeds. What is the single most

important reason that people should vote for you in the local election?

Because taxpayers' money is just that, it does not belong to the

politicians, and we can do a lot more and get more for less with

taxpayers money. If you look at Conservative councils up and down

the country, most of them have not been raising council tax, they have

been getting more for less, and that is what people deserve. We will

produce the maximum amount possible of affordable housing to meet the

housing needs of Britain, instead of the richest minority having flats

and houses that nobody can afford. We seem to have lost Hilary Benn. I

can answer for him. I will do it - he would certainly say, vote Labour.

You are watching The Sunday Politics.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. You know it's

election time when the studio gets a make over! The local government

elections are just four days away, so how are those we send to our new

super councils going to deal with contentious flags and emblems in

their brave new world? It does not matter what you do in terms of new

institutions, at the heart of everything there is still a

dichotomy between Sinn Fein and the DUP, between republicanism and

unionism. In this special extended programme we'll hear from

representatives of the five main parties ahead of Thursday's poll.

And with social media playing a more important role than ever in the

council and European elections, we ask how our politicians are facing

up to the online challenges and opportunities. That is the first

place that a lot of people will go when they want to get information on

what is happening with the parties, individual candidates, policies and

the general campaigns. And to discuss all of that and more, I'm

joined by the academic Orna Young and the journalist and commentator

Paul McFadden. Thursday's elections will decide who represents us in

Europe and in the eleven new super-councils. But as ever it's at

Stormont where the major political game is played out, and it looks as

if the next head to head battle will be centred on getting a budget

through. The Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton, told me on The View last

week that a deal has to be done next month or else every department in

the Executive will face serious cuts come August. But Sinn Fein says the

DUP needs to join it in telling Westminster to back away from its

decision to start penalising Stormont for not implementing

welfare reform. Let's hear the thoughts of today's commentators,

Orna Young and Paul McFadden. You're both welcome. Nice to see you. Do

you think, Paul, voters getting ready for the polling station will

see this as part of election rhetoric or is it sinking in that

there is a real problem that needs to be sorted? I assume that Simon

Hamilton when he says what he does is getting reliable information from

his counterpart in the Treasury. I accept it when he says that we are

only going to get so much money here, but I also say, when you

consider that the DUP say that they managed to wangle certain

concessions out of Westminster, for example on issues like bedroom tax,

that says to me that had people gone with a solid case, they might have

managed to secure more out of Westminster and the Treasury and I

think if you imagine if our politicians had gone together, there

would have been an opportunity to do something significant. That is

difficult to achieve. There is an all followed of the text that they

did not seem to agree on. Behind-the-scenes we hear that there

is a paper which all sides had agreed on. Looking at it from one

perspective, it shows mistrust between the parties generally, in

terms of working together. I think we need to look at it in terms of

more productive workings from the Assembly more generally, in terms of

singing of the same hymn sheet, but also working work productively on

the ground, putting measures in place, these cuts are coming, it

will happen. It is about preparing people for these changes. It is a

double whammy, we have more austerity cuts coming, that is in

the public realm. We have these other potential cut according to

Simon Hamilton as well. We are looking at DETI which is responsible

for supporting the City Of Culture in Londonderry. The figures are

quite frightening. If you speak to people at a community level, they

are suggesting that the cuts could be even more severe. The impact will

be felt in places like Londonderry, the impact of these cuts could be

catastrophic. We will hear more from you later. Very soon the existing 26

councils will begin to more of in to just 11. They will get extra powers

to deal with planning and tourism, but the new generation of

councillors will face challenges. Symbols, flags, emblems, councils

already have to deal with some of the most divisive issues in Northern

Ireland and sometimes the impact of those decisions affect the wider

political climate. In 2012, one decision had an impact well beyond

its locality. Belfast City Council's vote to fly the union flag

on designated days, sparked weeks of protest, and number of which turned

violent. The talks chaired by Richard Haass aim to find a

solution, but there was no agreement. The legislation on local

government reform does not mention flags so the issue may feature in

the new meetings of the councils. Those will be hugely difficult. It

is like everything, no matter how much you agree on planning or the

environment, the big issues will be the flags and parades. I would like

to think that these councils will look at it at a local level and

think what is the best thing for the towns and villages, what is the best

way to make this place more attractive and ease tensions. I fear

that they will take their steer from the headquarters and if they say it

is the flag 360 by days or nothing, they will go for that. The danger of

that is that this will cause divisions. Among the other decisions

is whether to carry over freedoms of the borough, Unionist councils have

given these two military regiments. There are questions about what other

symbols will feature outside council buildings. This will depend on the

political make-up of the councils. We can tell from previous election

results that of the 11 councils there will be split, six will be

Unionist dominated, four will dominated by Sinn Fein and Belfast

will remain split with Alliance are holding the rounds of power. Some

places may see more profound changes than others. The biggest council in

terms of landmass will stretch all the way from the north-west to the

eastern coast. Two Unionist controlled councils will merge with

two councils with nationalist majorities. The newly formed

Causeway Council will take on some of our most famous tourism aspects

and it will be very politically diverse. This is Dungiven at the

western end of the new district. The street names and street art

indicated the political allegiances. Dungiven is currently

in a council area which has an nationalist majority. When the new

local authority takes over, but is unlikely to be the case. It is

thought that the new super council will have a small Unionist

majority. The editor of the local newspaper says it will be a

different experience for nationalist councillors. It will be an

unsettling time for their -- for them to adjust. Equally, for

Unionist members, I know the way that the super councils were chosen,

Unionist members were more pleased with it than the nationalist

members. In contrast to Limavady, cold rain council is predominantly

Unionist and it is one of several local authorities which fly the

union flag every day -- Coleraine. It flies there all year and that is

the way it has always been. Sinn Fein are on record as saying that

they will have an issue with that. They will have an issue with all the

trappings of unionism which they say are present in the council chamber

in Coleraine. That is the obvious one which will kick things off

macro. I do think it is important to remember that councils need to deal

with bins and leisure centres and on these issues, councillors tend to

get on very well. That is generally true of most local authorities, so

will the new councils be characterised by divisions or

agreements? This is how we have to form relationships. It is about

working together, thinking together, representing January.

These are important issues. Even in Belfast, things have improved,

councillors work in a more unified way. Years ago, when it was easy to

do so, they did not do it and councils can be a beacon for some

sort of normality. It does not matter what you do in terms of new

institutions, at the heart of everything, there is still at I got

it between Sinn Fein and the DUP, between unionism and nationalism. --

dichotomy. There are few places where symbolism is as politically

important as their -- as it is in Northern Ireland. Our consular steel

with this, will help determine if the new councillors will become

symbols of political progress -- councillors. Chris Page highlighting

some of the challenges ahead for local government - and joining me

now are representatives of the five biggest parties contesting the

elections to the new councils on Thursday. With me around the table

are Mark Cosgrove from the Ulster Unionist Party, Gavin Robinson from

the DUP, Sinn Fein's Deirdre Hargey, Duncan Morrow from the Alliance

Party and Clare Hanna from the SDLP. You're all very welcome. Deirdre

Hargey. Your party raised the flags issue in Belfast and that led to 18

months of disagreement and debate across Northern Ireland. We don't

want to go back over the specifics of the Belfast issue, but does Sinn

Fein intend to make this an issue in the new councils? Sinn Fein have

been very clear and consistent and our message in dealing with this

emanates from the Good Friday Agreement where it clearly stated

that people have a right to be British, Irish, both or none. We

respect those rights, but there is a job of work for unionists to show

how are Schmidt is reflected. The issue of the flags at City Hall was

one of equality. This has to be reflected in equal manner. That is

our position. The agenda by Sinn Fein is anything but. We would

respect the right to be British, unionists have to show other people

is how they reflect the right to be Irish. I am an Irish citizen, so how

will unionists reach out to me and my community in reflecting this?

Could the flags issue bedevil the new council? Of course. The Alliance

has been consistent, and we have been consistent with the agreement

as well. The sensitivity principle is there, the principle that we

should fly flags with sensitivity and that this should be consistent

across the whole of Northern Ireland. It should also be

consistent with the equality condition, and it has been suggested

that designated days are the best option. We have been entirely

consistent and we believe it should fly across the whole of Northern

Ireland and there should be no threat about violence, because the

agreement put behind it is surely peaceful and democratic. Gavin

Robinson, your party wants to fly the union flag every day of the year

from public buildings, but that will not be acceptable to many new

councils who will not be controlled by Unionists. I think it is

important that, when they considered this discussion, not only is there

an issue about consent, and people have accepted the sovereignty of

Northern Ireland that we remain part of the United Kingdom, and we need

to reflect that in our councils. We have pledged to support and defend

symbols of the union. But we are also looking towards building

consensus. The three parties to my left ignored consensus politics.

They did not seek to reach an agreement was it to foster good

relations. What they saw to do was, when they reached a majority, they

put on the jackboot, and Sinn Fein, when it is well fast or

elsewhere... Lets not get involved in the politics of Belfast

specifically, but what other parties have said in the past is that there

was a democratic vote and that is how it went. How do you address

Deirdre Hargey's Irishness across the new 11 councils in Northern

Ireland? New Year people talk of a shared future. It has been very

clear whether it has been Belfast, or elsewhere. You do not have Sinn

Fein interested in a shared future. They only offer a shared future if

you share their view. How do you address her Irish identity? It is

important that, given the consent principle, and we are part of the

UK, that we reflect that appropriately and in a civic manner.

Can that circle be squared? Mark Cosgrove, can you express your

party's unionism and also Deirdre Hargey's and Claire Hanna's

Irishness? Of course. The sovereign flag of the UK is freely expressed

through the Belfast agreement, the union flag. The union flag should be

above any form of sectarianism. It is an inclusive symbol. There are

other public -- politicians who do not agree. I have no problems with

anybody's Irishness or anything else. The United Kingdom has large

ethnic minorities from every part of the world and I have no problem with

people wanting to express their Irishness through any means they see

fit, but the Unionist flag has to be above petty sectarian squabbles. It

is the flag of the country. If you're going to have any principle

behind not flying the symbol of the United Kingdom, don't take the ?10

billion that comes with! How do you respond to that? This doesn't

exercise the population as much as it does politicians. Flags on street

furniture are a great concern to most people. It will be a tremendous

waste if we go into the new councils with a sectarian Ding Dong in each

setting the tone. There may be people sitting at home thinking, why

are we discussing flags when we could be discussing the issues? The

point is, this is going to be 80 issue for the new councils, and

there will be opposing views. Absolutely, and we missed a trick by

not addressing it. In the second half of last year, people hoped that

some issues like flags and emblems and marching and parades and other

contentious things would be addressed, but we missed a penalty

kick and we have now kicked the can down the road into another set of

discussions. We are Democrats and we will respond to any motion that is

per towards us in the council, but it is about balance. Our approach is

about levelling up, not taking away aspects of other people's cultures.

We want to reflect the diversity of the city. There will be other people

who say to you, your party supported the naming of a play part in Newry

after an IRA man. If the new council decides to do that and continue

naming the playpark, will your party support that? I don't think it will.

So that was a mistake in the past? I think it was a mistake and there

were efforts to try to redress the situation. In the wider agenda, it

is about taking a sensitive approach. The flag issue was not

thrown into a council meeting. There was about 18 months of negotiation

in an attempt to soften the blow. It was not the flag coming down. It was

inflammatory leaflets being delivered across Belfast that

probably caused the violence that we saw, as much as a democratic

decision made by Democrats. So without the leaflets nobody would

have minded? Don't talk nonsense! The flag issue illustrates why the

good relations question is so central. This will polarise our

councils if we do not watch out. We have to be careful that we look for

a solution that will work for everyone. The storming solution is a

solution that everyone has bought into. It has the only possibility of

working in a place like Belfast. We did not jump on a nonconsensual

decision. There was a position where people had to choose between one

view, which is put the flag up every day, or take it down altogether. We

proposed an amendment which was to find consistency on the Stormont

deal which reflects the agreement. I still say that, unless we are

prepared to sit down and work this one through as parties, a trick was

missed and we were told that we would not discuss the flag issue

further and it was kicked into touch. It was a mistake and we will

regret it. Do you think, briefly, the will will be there for parties

to step out of that publicly stated positions and try to make some kind

of compromise work across the new 11 councils so that they get off to a

fair start? If that doesn't happen, we could be embroiled in discussions

like this interminable. It is an important issue, and from the nature

of this discussion you can see that it could vex councils, but it

needn't rest with councils. It is a bigger issue than Fx local

government. There is further discussion to be had. Sinn Fein and

the Alliance Party may try to bring forward a motion in local areas and

I would be prepared to welcome that progress. On other issues, planning

is a big problem for new councils. There are extended powers being

given to the new super councils. Trust is a big issue for the public,

especially around planning. Parties do not have to publish the names of

those who make financial contributions to party coffee is,

but there are those who argue determinedly that developers should

not have undue influence in new councils. Where do you stand on this

issue? With the new powers, we have always wanted names to be published

whenever we have a normal security situation, but we cannot sit here in

a nice studio in Belfast and pretend that we live in that normal society

that we are all trying very positively to build. There are still

people who have the threat of their life for their political views, and

I would love to see the time... They do not think the situation has

changed from a security point of user that it would now be reasonable

for names to be published? There would be people who would not

support funding political parties if their names were published. The

trust issue is very important. How do you square that circle? That is

the difficulty, because at the end of the day you are asking people for

money and political parties need money from people to exist. People

won't give it if they feel as though their name being published and being

put into the public domain could lead to a dissident terrorist threat

on them or on their business. But I think that is not the name -- main

issue on planning. The main issue is the opportunities that it affords

the new council. This could be a game changer, because it is not just

the devolution of those powers. It is the fact that each council is

going to have to draw up its own area plan. All the 21 current policy

planning statements, which makes it so difficult to attract inward

investment into Northern Ireland, that is going to go. We're going to

come up with one single area plan which could really transform

Northern Ireland from an investment perspective and getting quick

funding decisions. How do you persuade people that these

challenges are challenges that the new councillors will be able to rise

to? And how do you persuade them that we will not slip into the worst

aspects of parish pump? We would publish any donations that come in,

and we think any political process should be as transparent as

possible. We see this as an excellent opportunity to devolve

power to as close to the grass-roots constituents and bases as we can.

What about the security issue? We are 16 years into the Good Friday

Agreement and in a peace process that has been sustained, although

recent events in the last couple of years have shown that we cannot take

that process for granted. But we are committed to building the piece, and

that is something that we are doing. We want to devolve powers to local

councils are so they are closer to the man and woman on the street.

There will be a code of conduct within planning powers. We have the

new concept of community planning, which will change the lives of

people on the ground and how services will be delivered to them

and making sure that people have the same standards of service right

across the board. I don't think anyone would argue with that. There

also also few challenges, though. Yes, and one of the challenges will

be the level of maturity required. Planning has seen smaller parties

try to build up residential local fears, when planning policy will

frustrate the development -- never frustrate the development they are

seeking to bring forward. Parties will not be able to do that if --

any more and people will have to be more honest about the planning

applications and legislation that is there currently. That is good, open

and important for local government, but local government getting

planning powers is a wonderful opportunity. The idea that you

represent a local area, in connection with that local area, you

have a passion for the local area... It could lead to concerns on

the part of the public that private conversations ensure that certain

projects are favoured over others. Do you share Mark Cosgrove's

concerns, or should developers that support parties be in the public

domain? That is where openness and transparency are so important. Peter

Robinson said last week he has no difficulty with the Westminster

threshold of ?7,000 for revealing names. But the other party's

accounts around this table, we don't get donations of that nature. Our

party is supported by grass-roots members, individuals with small

contributions, so the notion that people are giving large sums, large

donations to parties to get their way to curry favour simply isn't

true. Transparency is important to dispel that myth. We have history

year. We have history of all sorts of money going in different

directions, but this is a great opportunity to bring regeneration,

community development and planning into a single space so we get

coherence. It will depend on the maturity of politicians. It depends

on transparency, and we are in favour of the publication of all of

that information. Before Terry had -- we fought very hard to get that

into the bill. We also believe that the issue of good relations is

important. What we get in town and city needs to be access the ball

for, available to the whole community, which is about

forward-looking planning. The most vibrant and dynamic shared spaces in

towns and cities are quite often High Streets and town centres. I

think we need to prioritise that. The strategic planning statement

brings together a lot of contradictory statements. Anyone who

has had to make a case for or against a planning application will

have found it very tickled to marry up the different priorities. I think

there is much more of a role for local people. In my experience,

people are sensible about planning. They understand the balance between

economic regeneration and their own needs, and I think that councillors

have to trust people to reflect that. We have to build capacity in

consultation with planning professionals to make the best

decisions. It is not just about developers in town centres, it can

also be about councillors in the countryside who live next door to

someone who wants to build a single dwelling in the countryside. What is

your position on that? That can be a different kind of Russia, but it can

be difficult for councillors in those circumstances -- a different

kind of pressure. The opinion of politicians is so low that people

think politicians will always make the grubby list decision possible,

and they do not think that is true. We're not doing away with

professional planners. People have spent years training up in the skill

of town planning, and I think this will allow that to come out.

Planners will not be boxed off into making minor individual decisions in

consultation with political representatives. They will be able

to take a wider look at a village or neighbourhood. I hope we do get into

the situation where an individual would wave through planning policy.

We have to make the whole process as open as possible so that people do

not have the possession -- perception that things like that are

happening. Local councils can begin to look at planning strategies which

will allow for the coordination of services. Gavin Robinson. Your

manifesto claims you are the party of low rates, but of the four

councils with the lowest rates you have majorities on just TWO of them,

so you can't say you are offering something others aren't... It is a

political principle. No matter whether we are in control, or we

have a strong voice, we continually pushed the message that money spent

through councils is public money, it belongs to the people and unless

they have confidence that the money is being used appropriately, we

should not ask for more. When Belfast was controlled by other

parties, there was a 10% rise and the last two years, the rate has

been frozen and councils were we have an influence, rates have been

frozen in, regional government, because that makes up the other half

of the rate bill. We have frozen the rate since 2007 in real terms and

when you look across the UK, our bills are half that of Wales. It is

about 55% less than England and a third less than Scotland. We are

making sure that money is being used appropriately. You talk about

supporting tourism, how would you pay for these projects if you're

wanting to keep rates low? The new powers that we will be getting, from

planning and community powers, it will be about sustainable

development and also within villages across the North. We want to work

with the business community and protect the most vulnerable in terms

of making the changes that need to be made. We have a good opportunity

with tourism and that is why we want to invest in our arts sector and

create a positive buzz about our town centres. We need to leave it

there. We have given people food for thought in terms of this. Thank you

for joining us. Thank you. Now, with a look back at the political week in

sixty seconds, here's Gareth Gordon... No progress on welfare

reform, the Finance Minister says he will slash department budgets by

more than 1%. That is a lot of money. That's a lot of services

which will go down, a lot of suffering. Disagreements over social

housing in north Belfast. If the facts do not fit the theory, change

the facts, Alberta and stirring, that is what gerrymandering looks

like. The former leader of the PU P, Hugh Smith has died. Large crowds

flood to the second Balmoral show to be held at the maze. At the North

West 200, and ministers swapped his suit for leathers. He gives me the

thrill of motorbike racing. Naughty MLAs said sorry for missing their

slots at Question Time. He went along to the Speaker 's office and

apologise. I apologise to the House. I want to apologise to the

House. Gareth Gordon reporting. When Barack Obama was re-elected as US

President in 2012, many commentators said his hugely effective social

media campaign gave him the edge over his republican rival. And as

the European and council elections approach, there's no doubt that

local politicians are putting more effort than ever into their presence

online. But just how effectively are they using Facebook and Twitter to

communicate with the electorate? That's what we asked people

attending a recent 'tweet up' in Belfast... Social media is hugely

important and in particular, in the run-up to elections, because the

political parties are launching campaigns, there is a huge amount

more information and news coming with regards to the elections and I

think that is the first place that quite a lot of people will go when

they want to get information on what is happening with the parties,

individual candidates, policies and the general campaigns. The political

parties and candidates are taking to social media and it is a huge change

from the last elections. If you really want to engage with people

and particularly young people, social media is the quickest and

fastest way to do so. We feel closer to our politicians because of it. It

could be another way to push out the PR messages they want to hear that

they want us to hear. Our politicians have not got to grips

with it entirely, they do not see it as a conversation, which they need

to. Once they start using it better and we all start using it and

working out how the conversations work, it will have a bigger impact.

Let us hear from our guests. Some politicians have connected with this

and others still do not appear on Twitter. It is very imbalanced. The

key thing is considering it is social media and what we are seeing

a lot of the time is where politicians are engaging, they are

doing it on party political broadcast level, rather than making

themselves available to their electorate. Is there a danger that

it is a small community preaching to itself? For the vast majority of

people in Northern Ireland, is it irrelevant? I think it depends on

how you use it. There are examples. Some can use it very well. Look at

the Mayor of London who uses it effectively. -- Mayor of London

Belfast. -- some people use it badly. I think looking at it, some

people have not considered it as a social mechanism. It is important to

get a version of yourself across and to communicate ideas, recruit people

into politics they may not have considered before. Do you think

people will turn out to vote on Thursday? I would not be surprised.

I think it will be over 50%. Thank you. I will bring you all the

results from the election as the begin to emerge on Friday. Join me

for Stormont Today. Thank you for joining us.