13/12/2015 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


13/12/2015

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers are joined by Peter Lilley MP, Yvette Cooper MP, Richard Burgon MP and James Cleverly MP.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:38.:00:42.

After suggestions that David Cameron was diluting his EU negotiation

:00:43.:00:49.

demands, Downing Street insists he's still pushing for curbs

:00:50.:00:51.

But is there any evidence that the rest of Europe is listening?

:00:52.:00:55.

Jeremy Corbyn says Stop The War is "one of the most important

:00:56.:00:58.

democratic campaigns of modern times".

:00:59.:01:00.

And why all the fuss that he went to its Christmas fund-raiser?

:01:01.:01:08.

Yvette Cooper - one-time Labour leadership contender -

:01:09.:01:10.

And coming up here... for refugees and migrants

:01:11.:01:21.

As the political wrangling continues over legacy,

:01:22.:01:23.

we'll hear the thoughts of the Victims' Commissioner.

:01:24.:01:25.

And could Stormont be about to tax sugary drinks?

:01:26.:01:27.

And with me for this final Sunday Politics of 2015,

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Tom Newton Dunn of The Sun, Helen Lewis of the New Statesman

:01:38.:01:40.

and Sam Coates of The Times - the Dasher, Dancer and Prancer

:01:41.:01:43.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:44.:01:48.

Downing Street insists that David Cameron will still push

:01:49.:01:51.

for curbs on in-work benefits for EU migrants in the UK,

:01:52.:01:54.

despite earlier briefings to the contrary.

:01:55.:01:58.

The Prime Minister will head to a crucial summit later this week

:01:59.:02:01.

to make his case for a reformed British relationship with the EU.

:02:02.:02:05.

However, several newspapers, citing official guidance,

:02:06.:02:07.

report that Mr Cameron has failed to convince other European leaders

:02:08.:02:11.

and is already preparing a fallback to replace his original demand

:02:12.:02:17.

for a four-year wait for in-work benefits.

:02:18.:02:22.

The Sunday Times headline says "Prime Minister 'caves in'

:02:23.:02:24.

The Sunday Telegraph describes it as "Cameron's climbdown

:02:25.:02:30.

And the Independent on Sunday goes for the same metaphor,

:02:31.:02:36.

describing it as "Cameron's big EU climbdown".

:02:37.:02:43.

Let's speak now to Conservative MP Peter Lilley.

:02:44.:02:45.

He was a Cabinet minister in the Conservative governments

:02:46.:02:48.

of both Margaret Thatcher and John Major.

:02:49.:02:55.

Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister is thought by many of your

:02:56.:03:00.

colleagues not to be asking for a lot, yet he might not even get what

:03:01.:03:06.

he's asking for. Could he sell a watered-down deal to his party? It

:03:07.:03:13.

is more a question of whether he can sell whatever comes out of it to the

:03:14.:03:20.

country. There are lots of Labour MPs who want to see democratic

:03:21.:03:26.

powers returned to this country from the European institutions. That's

:03:27.:03:29.

the key issue as far as I'm concerned. He will clearly get some

:03:30.:03:35.

things because a lot of this has been pre-negotiated, so he will get

:03:36.:03:40.

something to say about removing the phrase ever closer union, something

:03:41.:03:43.

to do with benefits, even if actually it is something we could do

:03:44.:03:49.

anyway ourselves, like apply a four-year wait to British citizens

:03:50.:03:55.

as well as foreigners. There will be something, the question is will it

:03:56.:03:58.

be substantial? Will it include a return of powers to this country to

:03:59.:04:04.

govern itself? What major powers is he asking to be repatriated?

:04:05.:04:11.

Publicly, there doesn't seem to be anything on the list, unless some

:04:12.:04:25.

change in relation to free movement of Labour is somewhere up his

:04:26.:04:29.

sleeve. I do occasionally hear rumours that he will come back with

:04:30.:04:33.

some genuine return of powers, and if he does I will be dancing on the

:04:34.:04:38.

rooftops. We have no evidence that's even part of the negotiation. That

:04:39.:04:46.

is certainly disappointing, it is rather a strange strategy not to ask

:04:47.:04:50.

for the principal thing we want and yet still hope to get it. Because we

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have, over a series of treaties which David Cameron and I voted

:04:59.:05:02.

against, conceded a whole lot of powers to Europe beyond what is

:05:03.:05:11.

necessary. The trading area requires some common lawmaking, but beyond

:05:12.:05:15.

that we concede a lot of powers. We would like to start the process of

:05:16.:05:21.

getting those powers back. If we cannot, we will be on a slippery

:05:22.:05:26.

slope to creating a single state. The reason we are in the position we

:05:27.:05:31.

are, having to renegotiate, is that the countries of the eurozone are on

:05:32.:05:38.

the road to creating a single state. There's never been a currency

:05:39.:05:45.

without a single state to run it. They are forced, because they have

:05:46.:05:50.

created this currency, without a government to make it work. The

:05:51.:05:55.

question is can we be outside that process, can removing the opposite

:05:56.:05:59.

direction and get powers back, or will we be sucked on the slipstream?

:06:00.:06:06.

If we cannot overcome the two doctrines of Europe that everybody

:06:07.:06:10.

is heading in the same direction, albeit at different speeds, and

:06:11.:06:14.

powers can only ever go to the central institutions and never come

:06:15.:06:18.

back to the States, if we cannot break those two doctrines as far as

:06:19.:06:22.

Britain is concerned, he will not really have achieved anything. I

:06:23.:06:28.

understand all of that. A quick final question, if he comes back

:06:29.:06:32.

with even less than he's asking for, would you vote to leave? If he

:06:33.:06:40.

doesn't come back with some increase in power to ourselves, I feel for

:06:41.:06:47.

the first time in my life I would be voting to leave. I voted to stay in

:06:48.:06:54.

1975 but I would be voting to leave in those circumstances.

:06:55.:06:57.

Tom, it is turning into a real mess for the Government, is it not? A

:06:58.:07:04.

huge mess. There was an exposer yesterday, of the 11pm call every

:07:05.:07:08.

night, coordinated with the Downing Street switchboard which the

:07:09.:07:19.

ministers have got to tune into. I can only imagine the horror that

:07:20.:07:23.

went on last night during the call, which still happens, over the

:07:24.:07:27.

headlines this morning. I think what's happened here is the

:07:28.:07:32.

four-year ban on migrants' benefit is dead. You think he's just not

:07:33.:07:38.

going to get it? It died I would say at least a month ago in the Chatham

:07:39.:07:43.

House speech. He said so in his speech saying, here is what I want,

:07:44.:07:47.

but by the way I will also accept what you choose to offer me. The

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papers reported the next day that it was dead in the water, so we are

:07:53.:07:56.

talking about the choreographing, how it happens and whether the Prime

:07:57.:08:02.

Minister himself withdraws it. Or somebody else might put something

:08:03.:08:07.

else on the table, doing the PM a favour, to bail him out and say if

:08:08.:08:10.

you don't want this how about that. Peter Lilley And, when I said can

:08:11.:08:16.

you sell this to your backbenchers comic said it is a problem for the

:08:17.:08:21.

other parties too but it is overwhelmingly a problem for the

:08:22.:08:24.

Conservatives and if he cannot achieve what is being asked for, I

:08:25.:08:28.

would suggest half the Parliamentary party in my not go with him on this.

:08:29.:08:34.

It is not the climb-down I would query, but the "big". He needed one

:08:35.:08:44.

totemic issue that looked like he was doing something about

:08:45.:08:47.

immigration. He couldn't look at the free movement of people or any kind

:08:48.:08:56.

of free movement cap. He couldn't tell nostrils any major power he is

:08:57.:09:01.

asking to be repatriated. It will be hard to make it look like he has

:09:02.:09:07.

come back with something so that people can say OK, that has changed

:09:08.:09:14.

my mind. If he gets one in February, can he have the referendum in June?

:09:15.:09:18.

I understand the Electoral Commission doesn't like the idea of

:09:19.:09:23.

a referendum that would overlap with the elections in May, and the risk

:09:24.:09:27.

in September is that we will have another summer migrant crisis and

:09:28.:09:30.

that would be a terrible atmosphere for those who want to stay in the

:09:31.:09:36.

European Union. There are a lot of hurdles, first you have got to get a

:09:37.:09:41.

deal in February that looks like a success. The reason they have done

:09:42.:09:43.

what they've done overnight is because it has been dragged down

:09:44.:09:48.

into a legal quagmire and David Cameron has got to have a

:09:49.:09:52.

conversation with his counterparts to set that entire renegotiation

:09:53.:09:56.

back on the right track. I know that some people in Brussels as saying he

:09:57.:10:00.

cannot get a deal by February, we will never get a deal, and if it

:10:01.:10:03.

slips into 2017 you won't get a deal then either. In June

:10:04.:10:18.

there is this tiny window because -- where you could practically hold a

:10:19.:10:21.

vote. But then as you say you've got the migrant crisis, which pops up

:10:22.:10:26.

over the summer. I'm told that dealing with the flow of migration

:10:27.:10:30.

from Turkey will make an enormous difference to the optics of how

:10:31.:10:34.

Europe is seen to be able to deal with the migration crisis. Even

:10:35.:10:37.

though that doesn't have a huge impact on UK migration from the rest

:10:38.:10:42.

of Europe, David Cameron's renegotiation depends on something

:10:43.:10:47.

truly out of his control. So you're telling me it depends on the Turks

:10:48.:10:48.

now. On Friday night Jeremy Corbyn met up

:10:49.:10:51.

with some old friends Nothing unusual in that,

:10:52.:10:53.

you might think, but this was a fundraising do

:10:54.:10:57.

for Stop The War Coalition, the anti-war protest group that

:10:58.:10:59.

Mr Corbyn chaired until his election And, in case you hadn't noticed,

:11:00.:11:01.

it caused a bit of a stir. It was the biggest mass

:11:02.:11:05.

demonstration in British history. The group that organised it,

:11:06.:11:13.

the Stop The War Coalition, had been founded a year or so before

:11:14.:11:15.

following the 9/11 attacks and George Bush's declaration

:11:16.:11:20.

of war on terror. Around a million people marched

:11:21.:11:25.

as Tony Blair prepared to send Among the speakers,

:11:26.:11:27.

a backbench Labour MP. Thousands more deaths in Iraq

:11:28.:11:32.

will not make things right, it will set off a spiral

:11:33.:11:37.

of conflict, of hate, One of the reasons for its success,

:11:38.:11:42.

I've always thought, is that everyone was united

:11:43.:11:49.

around one single issue. We never got bogged down

:11:50.:11:54.

in our political analyses of what we thought about

:11:55.:11:57.

Saddam Hussein or what we thought about this dictator or that,

:11:58.:12:00.

or how we thought the political We weren't there to offer solutions

:12:01.:12:03.

to other people's problems and tell them how we thought it should be,

:12:04.:12:10.

we were there to stop our government taking what we considered to be

:12:11.:12:14.

a very bad and negative step. But despite the broad support,

:12:15.:12:21.

the inner leadership has largely Stop The War's founding member

:12:22.:12:32.

and convener Lindsey German was a member of the Socialist

:12:33.:12:36.

Workers Party for over 30 years, Her partner, John Rees,

:12:37.:12:38.

who's also co-founder of Stop The War and was a leading

:12:39.:12:42.

figure in the SWP, he also He sits on the editorial board

:12:43.:12:46.

of Counterfire, a political organisation created

:12:47.:12:49.

after that SWP split. He also helped start up The People's

:12:50.:12:51.

Assembly Against Austerity, Which has been organising

:12:52.:12:53.

protests since 2013. He's often sparked controversy,

:12:54.:12:57.

reportedly writing in 2006, for example, that socialists should

:12:58.:12:59.

unconditionally stand with the oppressed

:13:00.:13:03.

against the oppressor, even if the people who run

:13:04.:13:06.

the oppressed country are undemocratic and persecute

:13:07.:13:08.

minorities, like Saddam Hussein. Andrew Murray was the Stop The War

:13:09.:13:13.

coalition chairman from He's a member of the Communist Party

:13:14.:13:15.

and chief of staff of In 2014 he spoke at the launch event

:13:16.:13:20.

of a campaign called Solidarity With The Antifascist

:13:21.:13:26.

Resistance In Ukraine, which supports anti-government

:13:27.:13:29.

rebels there. He took back the chairmanship again

:13:30.:13:32.

in September this year, taking over from Jeremy Corbyn,

:13:33.:13:34.

who'd held the post from 2011 As well as its elected officers,

:13:35.:13:37.

Stop The War has patrons including Labour MP Diane Abbott,

:13:38.:13:54.

George Galloway, the writer Tariq Ali, and Kamal Majid,

:13:55.:13:56.

a founding member of the Stalin Society, formed in 1991

:13:57.:13:58.

to defend Stalin and his work. The 2003 protest against the Iraq

:13:59.:14:01.

war, which took place here in Hyde Park, was the high point

:14:02.:14:04.

of Stop The War. The human rights activist

:14:05.:14:07.

Peter Tatchell never played an official role at Stop The War,

:14:08.:14:11.

though he has participated But this week he took a very public

:14:12.:14:14.

step back and claimed the organisation has

:14:15.:14:18.

lost its moral compass. The shortcomings in Stop The War

:14:19.:14:24.

are driven by basically about half a dozen people at the top,

:14:25.:14:27.

and those views increasingly are not shared by many of their long-time

:14:28.:14:30.

grass-roots supporters like me People are turned off

:14:31.:14:32.

by the sectarianism, by the selective opposition to war,

:14:33.:14:39.

and by the failure to speak out against human rights abuses

:14:40.:14:42.

by regimes that happen to be on the receiving end of US

:14:43.:14:47.

and British military intervention. Critics like Tatchell have accused

:14:48.:14:52.

Stop The War of trying to silence those whose views don't

:14:53.:14:55.

fit their own. Nothing will be achieved by trying

:14:56.:14:59.

to shout down speakers! This video shows a Stop The War

:15:00.:15:03.

official clashing with a protester during a rally about western

:15:04.:15:06.

policy in Iran in 2012, This meeting last month caused

:15:07.:15:08.

controversy when Syrians in the audience said

:15:09.:15:23.

they weren't allowed to speak. There is one reason there is no

:15:24.:15:27.

Syrian from this room on the platform and that's

:15:28.:15:30.

because they support intervention, and the meeting is

:15:31.:15:33.

against intervention. APPLAUSE What's really disturbing

:15:34.:15:34.

is the way in which Diane Abbott closed down the meeting rather

:15:35.:15:38.

than allow Syrian Democratic left wing and civil society

:15:39.:15:40.

activists to speak. It's given the impression

:15:41.:15:46.

that she shares the questionable politics of Stop The War

:15:47.:15:49.

on the issue of Syria. But Stop The War insists a Syrian

:15:50.:15:56.

contributor did ask a question from the floor of that meeting

:15:57.:16:00.

and have rubbished the suggestion they support those who Western

:16:01.:16:02.

governments oppose. Obviously, you will have seen

:16:03.:16:05.

in recent days Stop The War explaining that they were opposed

:16:06.:16:10.

to Russian intervention in Syria as well as British intervention,

:16:11.:16:14.

so they are evenhanded. The reason I think people may think

:16:15.:16:18.

that is because we are a campaign based in Britain and our campaigning

:16:19.:16:22.

is obviously overwhelmingly orientated towards changing our own

:16:23.:16:26.

Government's policy. Welcome to Islington

:16:27.:16:30.

in north London. In there is Jeremy Corbyn's

:16:31.:16:33.

constituency office. This building is also home

:16:34.:16:35.

to the Stop The War coalition, but it is the figurative proximity

:16:36.:16:39.

rather than the literal one that I spoke to a number of Labour MPs

:16:40.:16:42.

who voted against air One told me that he wasn't so much

:16:43.:16:46.

worried about Stop The War and the influence it may have

:16:47.:16:53.

on Jeremy Corbyn and policy, but more that Jeremy Corbyn

:16:54.:16:55.

simply shares their views. There's dissent at

:16:56.:16:58.

the grass roots too. Last week 500 party members,

:16:59.:17:02.

including councillors, wrote to Mr Corbyn urging him

:17:03.:17:04.

to take a step back. Stop The War is not

:17:05.:17:07.

a Labour Party organisation. There are many people in it who have

:17:08.:17:10.

opposed the Labour Party and probably continue

:17:11.:17:17.

to oppose the Labour Party. I don't believe they hold

:17:18.:17:19.

to the values of solidarity, We also spoke to a number of Labour

:17:20.:17:22.

MPs who were relaxed about Jeremy Corbyn's connection

:17:23.:17:28.

to Stop The War, an organisation he's never made any

:17:29.:17:30.

secret of supporting. On Friday he went to the Christmas

:17:31.:17:34.

do, and said slurs by critics against Stop The War were an attempt

:17:35.:17:38.

to close down democratic He knows some of those critics

:17:39.:17:40.

include his own MPs. We're joined now from Leeds

:17:41.:17:47.

by the Labour MP, Richard Burgon. Morning, Andrew. The Communist Party

:17:48.:17:59.

of Britain, which has prominent members in stop the war, says

:18:00.:18:04.

attacks on stop the war are, quote, a systemic and vicious propaganda oi

:18:05.:18:09.

offensive designed to obscure British imperialism's agenda in

:18:10.:18:11.

conducting the bombing campaign in Syria. Do you agree with that? Well,

:18:12.:18:16.

first of all I think I'm in a good position to answer some of these

:18:17.:18:19.

questions, pause I've only ever been a member of the Labour Party. I

:18:20.:18:25.

joined when I was 15. What I really want to focus on is not the members

:18:26.:18:30.

of small political parties who may be involved in Stop The War

:18:31.:18:34.

Coalition, but the tens of thousands, in fact they've got an

:18:35.:18:39.

e-mail list of 150,000 people, many of whom are not in any political

:18:40.:18:43.

party, many of whom are in the Labour Party. The chairman who has

:18:44.:18:47.

taken over from Mr Corbyn is a member of the Communist Party of

:18:48.:18:50.

Britain, so what's the answer to my question? I think the attacks on

:18:51.:18:54.

stop the war are proxy attacks on Jeremy Corbyn. We haven't had that

:18:55.:19:02.

previously. When Charles Kennedy was speaking against the Iraq war, which

:19:03.:19:09.

2 million people attended, Charles Kennedy wasn't attacked for that,

:19:10.:19:13.

and rightly so. But he wasn't a member of Stop The War Coalition. He

:19:14.:19:19.

spoke on the stop the war platform. But he wasn't a member? I'm not a

:19:20.:19:23.

member, there's a really important point here, it is right that people

:19:24.:19:30.

in democratic society express their views to MPs, march against things

:19:31.:19:33.

they think are incorrect. I do think the line and the leadership of the

:19:34.:19:37.

Stop The War Coalition hasn't changed in the 14 years since it was

:19:38.:19:41.

founded. What has changed is that Jeremy Corbyn has become leader of

:19:42.:19:44.

the Labour Party, so people in the media and elsewhere who wish to

:19:45.:19:48.

attack Jeremy Corbyn are using stop the war to do so. Of course it is

:19:49.:19:53.

not just the media, is it? It is not even the media. Labour MPses,

:19:54.:20:01.

Tristram Hunt, Stella Creasy, many more, they've attacked Stop the War

:20:02.:20:08.

Coalition and Jeremy Corbyn's support for it. I think the majority

:20:09.:20:13.

of Labour members agreed with Jeremy Corbyn on his analysis on whether or

:20:14.:20:17.

not we should agree to David Cameron's proposal to bomb Syria.

:20:18.:20:21.

But what do you say to their criticism of Mr Corbyn's continued

:20:22.:20:24.

association with Stop the War Coalition? I think they are

:20:25.:20:29.

mistaken. I think that stop the war, we've got to look at how stop the

:20:30.:20:33.

war has involved people from right across the political spectrum. When

:20:34.:20:39.

I was on that historical march in 2003, there wasn't just the Lib Dem

:20:40.:20:43.

leader speaking but other people I spoke to, Conservative voters, so it

:20:44.:20:47.

is not just 57 varieties of Trotskyite groups that are involved.

:20:48.:20:52.

If it were the case it were merelily people on the ultraleft you wouldn't

:20:53.:20:57.

have 150,000 people involved or on the e-mail list. Who is not either a

:20:58.:21:02.

cop thirst, a Trotskyite or a Stalinist? Well, there are plenty of

:21:03.:21:06.

trade unions involved in the lip... Among the leadership, the people who

:21:07.:21:11.

lead this, whose names are associated with it, who doesn't Paul

:21:12.:21:14.

into that small hard left category? Well, it is a coalition, and that's

:21:15.:21:19.

the point of it. So give me another name that doesn't fall into that.

:21:20.:21:23.

Well, I wouldn't even know the full list of people on the board of stop

:21:24.:21:28.

the war, but what I do know is that there are people from trade unions

:21:29.:21:32.

supporting it, trade unions supporting it, probably in terms of

:21:33.:21:36.

the membership of Stop the War Coalition, the biggest composite of

:21:37.:21:40.

that are Labour Party members. But I do think this is a distraction of

:21:41.:21:44.

the democratic issue. We can't say that in this country being a member

:21:45.:21:50.

of a Stop the War Coalition campaign, campaigning against

:21:51.:21:52.

military interventions that were proven to be disastrous in Iraq and

:21:53.:21:57.

Libya is wrong. It is part of an open democratic process. People

:21:58.:22:03.

shouldn't be demonised for being part of it, or Jeremy Corbyn. I'm

:22:04.:22:07.

not doing that, what I'm trying to do is find out what stop the war

:22:08.:22:11.

really stands for and whether it is right to Jeremy Corbyn and other

:22:12.:22:15.

Labour people should be associated with it. They are had an article

:22:16.:22:23.

titled, Sociopaths United. The United States, Britain and their

:22:24.:22:28.

allies are no less sociopathic than the enemies they propose to hunt

:22:29.:22:32.

down. So British security forces are on a par with the beheaders, do you

:22:33.:22:36.

agree with that? I certainly don't agree with that. I think there've

:22:37.:22:41.

been things published on blogs on the stop the war website which are

:22:42.:22:47.

essential wrong, which I wouldn't agree with and the vast majority of

:22:48.:22:50.

people who are members of the Stop the War Coalition wouldn't agree

:22:51.:22:53.

with. I was reading in the paper this morning that the management of

:22:54.:22:58.

the website of the stop the war has changed. If that shows that they are

:22:59.:23:02.

going to be more careful to ensure that the content of the website on

:23:03.:23:08.

every occasion mirrorst or reflects, sorry, the view of the leadership of

:23:09.:23:11.

the Stop the War Coalition, then that's a welcome move. Well, it is

:23:12.:23:21.

certainly, if it is such a splendid organisation, it has to delete lots

:23:22.:23:27.

of articles it has published. It blamed the Paris attacks on French

:23:28.:23:37.

policy, claimed that the threat to the Yazidis was largely mythical, in

:23:38.:23:41.

fact force. And published a poem that quotes a well known anti-Semite

:23:42.:23:46.

and Holocaust denier. All of that it has had to take down. Does that

:23:47.:23:49.

sound like a respectable organisation that the Labour Party

:23:50.:23:53.

should be associated with? Well, the views that you've uncovered aren't

:23:54.:23:58.

views that I or members of the Stop the War Coalition would agree with.

:23:59.:24:04.

But the big picture is this. In a coalition there are always sorts of

:24:05.:24:07.

small numbers of individuals who come out with unacceptable views.

:24:08.:24:10.

But the fact is I'm interested in the democratic point, in the 2

:24:11.:24:15.

million people that marched on 15th February 2003, in the thousands that

:24:16.:24:19.

protested against the intervention in Libya and intense the

:24:20.:24:23.

intervention in Syria. I'm not a pacifist but I think that the truth

:24:24.:24:27.

is that the Stop the War Coalition and the ordinary people from vicars

:24:28.:24:31.

to pensioners who marched against the war in Iraq, who marched against

:24:32.:24:35.

the intervention in Libya and have demonstrated against the

:24:36.:24:37.

intervention in Syria, they've got it right. Many of the people

:24:38.:24:41.

attacking Jeremy Corbyn and many of the people attacking the Stop the

:24:42.:24:44.

War Coalition have got it completely wrong. It is a topsy-turvy world we

:24:45.:24:51.

are in when attending Stop the War Coalition events is controversial.

:24:52.:24:53.

We are still pretending that Tony Blair and others got it right in

:24:54.:24:59.

Iraq. We haven't got much time Mr Burgon. Mr Corbyn stuck to his guns

:25:00.:25:05.

and went to the fundraiser. His spin doctor says the Labour Party is now

:25:06.:25:09.

slowly co hearing round Mr Corbyn's views, across a range of issues. Do

:25:10.:25:16.

you agree with that? I do. As I minced earlier, Jeremy Corbyn didn't

:25:17.:25:20.

instruct or order Labour MPs to vote against David Cameron's plan to bomb

:25:21.:25:25.

Syria. He gave them a free vote, and that that was the right thing to do.

:25:26.:25:31.

By a ratio of 2 to 1 Labour MPs agreed with Jeremy Corbyn's

:25:32.:25:36.

analysis, and by 2 to 1 members of the Shadow Cabinet agreed with Mr

:25:37.:25:42.

Corbyn. But on working tax credits, police cuts, issues such as ech

:25:43.:25:50.

attacking George Osborne's failed cuts and privatisationings the vast,

:25:51.:25:55.

of Labour MPs and members, and a lot of the public agree with him.

:25:56.:26:02.

Richard Burgon thank you for joining us and for persevering with the

:26:03.:26:06.

earpiece. I'm glad you stalk with it. Thank you. Take care. Bye.

:26:07.:26:12.

Yvette Cooper came third in the contest to become

:26:13.:26:14.

Her campaign only really came to life back in early September,

:26:15.:26:18.

when she became the first front rank UK politician to call for Britain

:26:19.:26:21.

to take in 10,000 refugees from the Syrian war.

:26:22.:26:23.

Now, in her new role as Chair of Labour's Refugees Taskforce,

:26:24.:26:26.

she's been on a fact-finding visit to the Jungle refugee

:26:27.:26:28.

6,000 people are currently living in what, in most generous terms,

:26:29.:26:43.

Yvette Cooper, a former Shadow Home Secretary,

:26:44.:26:54.

a Labour leadership contender, argued over the summer Britain

:26:55.:26:57.

should take more Syrian asylum seekers than

:26:58.:26:58.

Now a backbencher, she is returned as a guest of citizens UK not

:26:59.:27:05.

to argue we should fling open the doors but that the jungle

:27:06.:27:10.

was a problem nobody has tried to find a solution to.

:27:11.:27:13.

Why do we not have UNHCR here doing proper assessments of everybody?

:27:14.:27:17.

And therefore actually they need to go back through

:27:18.:27:25.

You've got to have a proper process to assess people's refugee status

:27:26.:27:32.

and at the moment that's not happening.

:27:33.:27:40.

That's the real big tragedy of here, the people have got stuck

:27:41.:27:43.

here in these awful conditions and there's no

:27:44.:27:45.

Some would call it hell, that's a little hyperbolic,

:27:46.:27:48.

It's really purgatory, since there's a real sense nobody

:27:49.:27:56.

is going anywhere, unless to climb on board a lorry and illegally

:27:57.:27:59.

And a camp unsuited to summer is preparing for a winter it's

:28:00.:28:05.

There's an argument which says, if you help refugees,

:28:06.:28:09.

then somehow that will create a crisis.

:28:10.:28:11.

No, the crisis is here and now, the crisis is happening.

:28:12.:28:17.

The question is what we do to stop the crisis getting worse and worse,

:28:18.:28:20.

so you can't have people stuck living among the rubbish

:28:21.:28:26.

and the pools of water and the mud while they're applying for asylum.

:28:27.:28:32.

You've got to have a basic humanitarian aid in place.

:28:33.:28:40.

At the Medecins Sans Frontieres clinic on-site, the issue

:28:41.:28:42.

of the conditions and winter is a problem itself.

:28:43.:28:48.

The problem when we see the camp, it's very cold, the hygiene

:28:49.:28:52.

And what happens, the condition...the simple

:28:53.:29:02.

flu passes sometimes in the bronchal...and that's it.

:29:03.:29:10.

There are many women and children - yes, they are outnumbered -

:29:11.:29:15.

but they're housed in two sections of the camp we're not allowed

:29:16.:29:18.

to film in, though clearly some choose to live in other parts

:29:19.:29:20.

of the camp and walk the roads around.

:29:21.:29:22.

And it's the issue of unaccompanied minors with family already legally

:29:23.:29:25.

in the UK that is worrying some of the volunteers.

:29:26.:29:29.

So, there's a ten-year-old boy separated from his family and just

:29:30.:29:32.

There are eight-year-olds, nine-year-olds, ten-year-olds

:29:33.:29:40.

with family in the UK desperate to look after them,

:29:41.:29:43.

and come here to visit them and bring them things

:29:44.:29:45.

Do you suspect that people back home will see this and their natural

:29:46.:29:56.

humanity will say, "this is awful, that looks really dreadful,

:29:57.:29:58.

we still don't want lots of them to come"?

:29:59.:30:00.

The problem is you look around this and you think,

:30:01.:30:11.

how is this northern Europe, how can this be just a few miles

:30:12.:30:14.

How can this be what is happening in France?

:30:15.:30:17.

Yvette Cooper would be much happier if those minors were taken

:30:18.:30:20.

in with their families, and seems to be singing from a song

:30:21.:30:23.

sheet that says whether we take more refugees, fewer or none,

:30:24.:30:26.

it may well be a pressing question, but that the jungle in Calais

:30:27.:30:30.

Welcome back to the Sunday Politics. Should adults from this can be

:30:31.:30:44.

allowed into Britain? It depends on their circumstances. Most of them

:30:45.:30:48.

should be playing in France for asylum and that I think is what you

:30:49.:30:54.

would expect to happen. Some of them may not be refugees, some of them

:30:55.:30:59.

may have safe homes to go to and should do so. Clearly there's a lot

:31:00.:31:05.

of people there who have fled Syria, Afghanistan, who we know are fleeing

:31:06.:31:10.

conflict and persecution. There's a question about the children. We saw

:31:11.:31:17.

unaccompanied children. There are people traffickers, some cases where

:31:18.:31:21.

aid workers said they had families in Britain we were trying to reach.

:31:22.:31:27.

For example I spoke to a 15-year-old whose brother, his nearest relative

:31:28.:31:32.

is in Britain and he wants to join him. That's why he is in Calais.

:31:33.:31:39.

Should we let them in? We should have a process for him to be able to

:31:40.:31:44.

apply. We should be providing that sanctuary. I understand the children

:31:45.:31:51.

issue but I'm still not quite clear what your attitude is towards the

:31:52.:31:56.

adults there. Although a lot of people in this camp may have started

:31:57.:32:01.

as refugees, they are now in France. They are not in immediate danger of

:32:02.:32:06.

their lives so they now want to come to the UK because they think

:32:07.:32:10.

economic prospects are better here than in France. That makes their

:32:11.:32:16.

role economic migrants now. That's not the reality. They have no safe

:32:17.:32:21.

home at the moment, and I agree they should be playing right now and they

:32:22.:32:26.

should be assessed where they are. The French authorities should be

:32:27.:32:32.

doing a full assessment. So why are they not in there? Good question.

:32:33.:32:38.

Why are we leaving people in such awful conditions? If the French

:32:39.:32:43.

authorities cannot, we should get the UNHCR to come in and do a full

:32:44.:32:49.

assessment. There will also be people, I spoke for example to a

:32:50.:32:53.

single mother with two small children who had left Syria when her

:32:54.:32:59.

husband was killed in an Assad jail. She was trying to reach her father

:33:00.:33:06.

and brother, also in Britain. There should be a process for her to apply

:33:07.:33:11.

for sanctuary in Britain. If you had a fair system to apply, you might

:33:12.:33:16.

prevent people coming to Calais in the first place. Should we set up an

:33:17.:33:22.

asylum seeking vetting operation in Calais ourselves? We have a system

:33:23.:33:27.

the Government set up under pressure to take refugees from the camps in

:33:28.:33:34.

Syria. I'm talking about the camps in Calais. I agree but I'm saying we

:33:35.:33:38.

should prevent people coming to Calais in the first place. Once

:33:39.:33:45.

people have got to Calais, I think there is a case particularly for

:33:46.:33:52.

those children... We understand the children but I'm asking about adults

:33:53.:33:56.

because it is hard to know what your policy is on this. Should we start

:33:57.:34:01.

to say some of them are asylum seekers, the French are not doing

:34:02.:34:04.

their jobs properly, we will take them in once they go through the

:34:05.:34:13.

proper procedures - yes or no? Those who have formally in Britain should

:34:14.:34:16.

be able to apply for sanctuary in Britain but you need a system. You

:34:17.:34:22.

need to be able to do security checks and refugee checks. At the

:34:23.:34:29.

moment Britain is only taking 4000 refugees per year. I think we could

:34:30.:34:33.

do more of that, and if we did that and worked with other countries we

:34:34.:34:38.

should be clearing the problems at Calais and preventing people coming

:34:39.:34:41.

to Europe on most dangerous boats in the first place. I know that people

:34:42.:34:47.

think we cannot solve this, it is too hard, but if we don't it will

:34:48.:34:51.

get worse. Some people may argue that the more you take in and give

:34:52.:34:59.

proper status to, you will encourage all the more to come into Europe.

:35:00.:35:06.

People are coming whatever happens. We are told there is another 5

:35:07.:35:11.

million waiting to come. At one point the Government was arguing we

:35:12.:35:15.

shouldn't have search and rescue in the Mediterranean because that would

:35:16.:35:19.

encourage more people to come, I think that is immoral. People have

:35:20.:35:23.

come, they are travelling across Europe. Let me try to pin you down

:35:24.:35:30.

on that. It is still not clear what you want to do. Let's take the

:35:31.:35:36.

migrants who have made it into the EU this year. Although the German

:35:37.:35:40.

government took most itself, it tried to spread the burden through

:35:41.:35:46.

quotas of member states. Should we volunteer a quota? Yes, I think we

:35:47.:35:54.

should take 10,000 people. Only ten? The Germans are taking a lot more.

:35:55.:36:00.

The reason I said that figure is because that meant you would be

:36:01.:36:05.

talking about ten families for every city or County across the country

:36:06.:36:09.

and I also think the best way to do with this is to work with faith

:36:10.:36:14.

groups across the country and say how many refugees do you think you

:36:15.:36:20.

could support in each area. Germany's Labour market is in a

:36:21.:36:24.

different situation and they have a different demographic. So 10,000 out

:36:25.:36:30.

of Vermilion, that would be British response? That would be a good thing

:36:31.:36:35.

to do, but the truth is all countries will have to work together

:36:36.:36:39.

on this and there isn't a simple answer. It's not just about what you

:36:40.:36:44.

do in terms of the number of refugees you give sanctuary to, it's

:36:45.:36:48.

also how you prevent people travelling. We should reunite

:36:49.:36:52.

families and we have got to do something about humanitarian relief.

:36:53.:36:58.

There are people living in terrible conditions, with France and Britain

:36:59.:37:02.

being two of the most powerful countries in the world you would

:37:03.:37:05.

have thought it is not beyond the wit of these countries to make sure

:37:06.:37:11.

there is proper humanitarian relief, sanitation, and heating for people

:37:12.:37:15.

who will suffer not just from scabies but terrible conditions in

:37:16.:37:20.

those camps as the winter draws in. Indeed we shall see what horrors the

:37:21.:37:24.

winter brings because we have not gone through that yet in this

:37:25.:37:28.

migrant crisis. You heard a colleague of yours saying he thought

:37:29.:37:37.

the Labour Party was now moving strongly in Mr Corbyn's direction in

:37:38.:37:39.

policy matters, do you agree? There's been a lot of policies I

:37:40.:37:43.

disagree with, we have that debate over the summer. The challenge at

:37:44.:37:48.

the moment is that the Labour Party has an internal focus, looking

:37:49.:37:52.

inwards at ourselves. We have got to look outwards. You are not answering

:37:53.:37:58.

my question. Let me try one more time. Is your party moving broadly

:37:59.:38:08.

in Mr Corbyn's direction? I'm not sure quite what that means because

:38:09.:38:12.

we are having a debate in the party at the moment about what the

:38:13.:38:15.

policies should be in the future. The trouble is we cannot just make

:38:16.:38:19.

that debate look inwards when the Tories are being let off the hook on

:38:20.:38:25.

tax credits, Europe and a series of things. I will try to make the

:38:26.:38:30.

question more clear next time. Thank you.

:38:31.:38:31.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:32.:38:33.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:34.:38:43.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

:38:44.:38:46.

Dealing with the past remains the issue that the parties can't

:38:47.:38:48.

Do we need another deadline to push the process forward?

:38:49.:38:53.

We'll hear the thoughts of the the Victims' Commissioner,

:38:54.:38:55.

And David Cameron said no to a sugar tax -

:38:56.:39:00.

but could the Assembly be the first devolved institution to go it alone

:39:01.:39:03.

And with their thoughts on all of that and more -

:39:04.:39:07.

my guests of the day are Paul McFadden and Dawn Purvis...

:39:08.:39:17.

It was left out of the Fresh Start deal - and now the Secretary

:39:18.:39:21.

of State says she shares the frustration of some victims'

:39:22.:39:24.

groups, angry at the lack of progress on legacy issues.

:39:25.:39:26.

Theresa Villiers is to meet victims this week amid an ongoing row over

:39:27.:39:29.

the government's position on dealing with the past.

:39:30.:39:32.

She's been accused of failing to deliver on a commitment made

:39:33.:39:35.

in the Stormont House Agreement, by insisting upon a veto on material

:39:36.:39:38.

We'll hear from the Victims' Commissioner' Judith Thompson'

:39:39.:39:42.

in just a moment - but first, here's what the Secretary of State

:39:43.:39:45.

told me on The View on Thursday night...

:39:46.:39:52.

Gay and I Cheryl Cole of getting these new body set up and frankly

:39:53.:40:00.

that requires compromise all round. We have put on the table and appeal

:40:01.:40:05.

mechanism, we stretched ourselves, because who want to do everything we

:40:06.:40:10.

can to get these bodies set up. We want this process of determining

:40:11.:40:15.

what material can be redacted on the grounds of national security, we

:40:16.:40:18.

wanted to be transparent and the way we propose to do that is by having a

:40:19.:40:22.

direct appeal to the High Court so that families can be confident that

:40:23.:40:29.

the deed power never be misused and it is absolutely still clear that

:40:30.:40:33.

the High Court is entirely independent of government and of any

:40:34.:40:36.

Secretary of State were seeking as you have alleged to try and cover up

:40:37.:40:39.

the truth then that would be overturned by the High Court. I am

:40:40.:40:45.

surprised really that you maintain the line you are optimistic, you

:40:46.:40:48.

said at the start that you optimistic this can be dealt with

:40:49.:40:53.

but you say you expect to get a tough time meeting victims group and

:40:54.:40:57.

you know that Sinn Fein is unhappy so where is the optimism. I think

:40:58.:41:02.

generally during the talks are a lot of issues were resolved, yes we did

:41:03.:41:06.

not resolve the question around national security. That is the big

:41:07.:41:13.

issue. We discussed constructive proposals, Sinn Fein put proposals

:41:14.:41:16.

on the table, we did not think we could make them work and we put our

:41:17.:41:20.

own proposals on the table, but we are not 1 million miles away from

:41:21.:41:21.

one another. Theresa Villiers speaking

:41:22.:41:28.

on Thursday night. The Secretary of State says she's

:41:29.:41:29.

optimistic outstanding issues Do you share her optimism?

:41:30.:41:33.

She says the right to veto The reason why I believe that is

:41:34.:41:42.

that I have spoken since those talks finished to the first and Deputy

:41:43.:41:47.

First Minister, to the Irish Foreign Affairs Minister and the Secretary

:41:48.:41:51.

of State and all of them independently are giving details on

:41:52.:41:55.

specific progress that have not for being made in relation to the

:41:56.:41:57.

different elements of the agreement and I think this is important, I

:41:58.:42:01.

have met with a number of victims groups who would have had quite

:42:02.:42:05.

disparate concerns going into the but the reality of achieving nothing

:42:06.:42:10.

on the table has been a real shock to everyone and there is a level of

:42:11.:42:14.

energy and common purpose there which I think was not there before.

:42:15.:42:19.

The Secretary of State was clear that in her view, the right to veto

:42:20.:42:23.

will never be misused by the British Government and she was keen to make

:42:24.:42:28.

that point, but some of her critics, some of them representing victims

:42:29.:42:32.

groups do not accept that, are you persuaded by what the Secretary of

:42:33.:42:37.

State had to say? The key issue is that there are real concerns about

:42:38.:42:42.

national security. On the one hand there are people who understandably

:42:43.:42:45.

are concerned that the information that they need will be redacted from

:42:46.:42:48.

reports and key issues swept under the carpet and that is not a useful

:42:49.:42:53.

process. I think that is a genuine concern but on the other hand you

:42:54.:42:58.

have others who whilst they understand the need for national

:42:59.:43:02.

security are equally saying this needs to be proportionate and

:43:03.:43:05.

realistic. I believe that at the end of the day what was being developed

:43:06.:43:11.

at the very close of those talks was a move towards some sort of judicial

:43:12.:43:17.

model where the director of that new HIU if they felt that national

:43:18.:43:21.

security was being used as the measure to cover up things that were

:43:22.:43:25.

uncomfortable, rather than security sensitive than they could go to a

:43:26.:43:30.

judicial process. That process, the nature of that was not fully agreed

:43:31.:43:34.

but there are ways of doing creative thinking around that. Are you saying

:43:35.:43:37.

that you believe common ground could be found to allow the British

:43:38.:43:42.

Government, the Secretary of State to sign up to a judicial process for

:43:43.:43:47.

disclosure that would also meet the demands of victims groups? Sinn Fein

:43:48.:43:51.

have been very vocal on this issue. I do believe that this possible.

:43:52.:43:56.

Because it is hard to see how it is possible, it looks like such an

:43:57.:43:59.

enormous sticking points. It was an enormous sticking point going into

:44:00.:44:03.

the talks when we had draft legislation with two levels of

:44:04.:44:07.

security information going into that process marked not to be disclose

:44:08.:44:11.

further and then there was a further potential block during the end of

:44:12.:44:17.

the investigation. That was where the stock started and that was in

:44:18.:44:20.

the draft legislation. Where it got too at the end was a different place

:44:21.:44:24.

and had there been longer to look at ways around that process should look

:44:25.:44:30.

like, I believe there might have been more confidence. So you are

:44:31.:44:34.

assuring our viewers that this is more than simple wishful thinking on

:44:35.:44:37.

the parts of the Victims' Commissioner? You would want that to

:44:38.:44:43.

be the case, are you saying that you have good reason to believe that can

:44:44.:44:46.

be the case? Yes, I look at where we are now, what is not acceptable is

:44:47.:44:51.

where we are now. We have 500,000 people affected by the Troubles

:44:52.:44:55.

living in Northern Ireland and outside. We have 40,000 people

:44:56.:44:58.

injured and the pension for the seriously injured is on hold. We

:44:59.:45:05.

have 200,000 people with mental health problems. Funding for a

:45:06.:45:10.

trauma service is on hold. We have ?60 million a year being spent on

:45:11.:45:14.

our justice system in pursuit of processes that everyone agrees are

:45:15.:45:18.

not working. Were we are now, this is not going to go away, it has to

:45:19.:45:23.

be dealt with. We are approaching a New Year and there are Assembly

:45:24.:45:30.

elections next year, you know that positions on the political front

:45:31.:45:32.

tend to harden in the run-up to an election, who is going to take the

:45:33.:45:36.

lead as far as this process of compromise and finding common ground

:45:37.:45:41.

is concerned, will that be you? As commissioner, I am in the privileged

:45:42.:45:44.

position of talking to everyone and there are many people who have been

:45:45.:45:48.

working at this for a long time and have great knowledge and

:45:49.:45:50.

understanding, so what I think has to happen is I am meeting with the

:45:51.:45:56.

victims Forum and the Secretary of State tomorrow and we have further

:45:57.:46:06.

meetings scheduled with parties this week. I think there needs to be

:46:07.:46:08.

better information out there, of where these talks got to and what

:46:09.:46:10.

the options are being considered, there has to be a structured

:46:11.:46:13.

dialogue that victims can lead and as a commissioner I will help that.

:46:14.:46:17.

I believe that there needs to be a timetable, further political talks

:46:18.:46:22.

and for legislation to implement things. The problem and I do not

:46:23.:46:25.

need to tell you this because you know this there is no one victim 's

:46:26.:46:31.

voice in all of this. What is really interesting here is that in the

:46:32.:46:35.

run-up to the talks were we had something on the table, yes those

:46:36.:46:39.

anxieties and diverse views were there, but when you actually get to

:46:40.:46:42.

a level of should there be some level of truth and acknowledgement

:46:43.:46:47.

and justice and should there be services and help for people who

:46:48.:46:51.

have suffered, nobody disagrees. When you say what about a victim

:46:52.:46:55.

centred approach, should victims be considered and how we deal with

:46:56.:46:58.

these matters, should they be consulted, should we have processes

:46:59.:47:10.

to deal with the issues, victims groups agree, so there is an energy

:47:11.:47:12.

and a common purpose there, even though obviously these people

:47:13.:47:14.

represent a society which is still quite divided. At a higher level,

:47:15.:47:18.

there is a journeyman will to get something done. Do you believe that

:47:19.:47:22.

the Secretary of State is potentially coming under pressure

:47:23.:47:27.

from her own backbenchers, from veterans organisations, not to

:47:28.:47:30.

disclose information that could be embarrassing for people involved in

:47:31.:47:33.

the conflict from a government point of view in the past? She was pretty

:47:34.:47:37.

clear that that was not the case, she said she had not come under

:47:38.:47:40.

pressure but there are people who think she must be under huge

:47:41.:47:44.

pressure not to disclose embarrassing information. We all saw

:47:45.:47:50.

the Spotlight programme and interviews with veterans, obviously,

:47:51.:47:53.

the Secretary of State operates in an arena where these are real

:47:54.:47:58.

issues. In Northern Ireland, are parties and people understand these

:47:59.:48:02.

issues differently and there are people who are ex-members of the

:48:03.:48:05.

security forces themselves saying to me, look there is a truth here that

:48:06.:48:09.

we need to have acknowledgement. There are quite a few commentators,

:48:10.:48:13.

we had three of them on Thursday night who were of the view that

:48:14.:48:20.

victims are expectations and hopes have been unrealistically raised and

:48:21.:48:22.

they will never get the satisfaction that they are ultimately looking

:48:23.:48:27.

for, do you share that glass half empty view or do you think that

:48:28.:48:31.

victims from what ever background and however they find themselves to

:48:32.:48:35.

be victims can be satisfied at the end of this process? Firstly I do

:48:36.:48:39.

agree that people's hopes were raised and then disappointed and

:48:40.:48:43.

that was incredibly difficult for victims and survivors, secondly, yes

:48:44.:48:48.

I do think that something which will satisfy the majority of

:48:49.:49:02.

people is be achieved, do I think everyone will be pleased with any

:49:03.:49:06.

option? It is not going to be possible to satisfy everyone's wants

:49:07.:49:08.

and needs all of the time. You have to respect and listen and go for the

:49:09.:49:11.

best you can achieve. Can you achieve that before the next

:49:12.:49:13.

Assembly election do you believe? I believe that we need to have

:49:14.:49:15.

alternative talks before the election and I believe that

:49:16.:49:19.

legislation would not be possible until then. The outstanding issues

:49:20.:49:23.

theoretically could be resolved before the election? I think this

:49:24.:49:26.

dialogue needs to start now while it is fresh and what has been achieved

:49:27.:49:30.

is still in front of us, I do not think this is something that can be

:49:31.:49:32.

parked until the next election. Let's bring in my guests -

:49:33.:49:36.

Dawn Purvis and Paul McFadden... Does that state of the nation view

:49:37.:49:49.

from the commission gave you cause for optimism that these seemingly

:49:50.:49:56.

intractable issues can be resolved? As chair of an organisation that has

:49:57.:50:00.

been looking at legacy issues and how we deal with the past in

:50:01.:50:04.

Northern Ireland for the last 13 years, we know that this is possible

:50:05.:50:07.

when you bring people together from very diverse backgrounds, from those

:50:08.:50:13.

who have been most affected and those involved in the conflict. We

:50:14.:50:17.

know it is possible, and the difficulties that we face are that

:50:18.:50:21.

political parties are starting from the position that they do not want

:50:22.:50:26.

to deal with this. So, if you look at whether political parties have

:50:27.:50:29.

come from, from not wanting to deal with this to find a way of dealing

:50:30.:50:34.

with this, they have come a hell of a long way. Once you get and I agree

:50:35.:50:39.

with Judith, there is a high level of agreement and amongst the

:50:40.:50:42.

principles that set out dealing with the past, it is when we start to

:50:43.:50:45.

drill down to the details of those mechanisms that the party 's retreat

:50:46.:50:49.

to their own constituencies and that is the difficulty. Ayew any more

:50:50.:50:54.

optimistic having heard the commissioner 's thoughts on how

:50:55.:50:57.

things might unfold in the months ahead and perhaps you were before

:50:58.:51:03.

today? Know I am not and with respect to Judith, and Judith will

:51:04.:51:06.

be privy to discussions that I am not aware of, but for me, the fresh

:51:07.:51:13.

start document was a false start so far as victims are concerned. The

:51:14.:51:20.

fact that nothing was achieved in terms of addressing the whole

:51:21.:51:24.

legacy, it has concentrated minds and it is dreadfully embarrassing

:51:25.:51:26.

that there was an agreement on so many other issues with nothing done

:51:27.:51:34.

to address the concerns of victims. That was quite dispiriting. I hope

:51:35.:51:37.

that Judith is right and that the parties are closer together than the

:51:38.:51:43.

way they seem at the minute, but to me the past is a rock that so many

:51:44.:51:48.

people do not want to look under, the British Government doesn't, the

:51:49.:51:52.

paramilitary organisations either. We will watch this situation unfolds

:51:53.:51:56.

after Christmas and perhaps in the run-up to the election.

:51:57.:51:59.

The Health Minister beat the chair of the Health Committee to it this

:52:00.:52:03.

week when he announced he's proposing legislation to ban smoking

:52:04.:52:06.

Maeve McLauglin, who had also planned to propose the move,

:52:07.:52:10.

welcomed the development, but not to be out-done

:52:11.:52:12.

announced her plans to get the Assembly to back a sugar

:52:13.:52:15.

And Maeve McLaughlin joins me now from our Foyle studio...

:52:16.:52:19.

Is this a bit of policy ping pong between yourself and the Minister -

:52:20.:52:23.

he serves up the smoking ban and you return with the sugar tax?

:52:24.:52:33.

No, both amendments were tabled at the same time and I think what it is

:52:34.:52:40.

is a response to an increasing robust evidence -based that the

:52:41.:52:46.

level of sugar consumption in society is directly correlated with

:52:47.:52:51.

health problems. We see that when we look at areas such as the increase

:52:52.:52:56.

in diabetes, obesity and indeed cardiovascular disease, not to

:52:57.:53:01.

mention dental decay particularly amongst our children and young

:53:02.:53:05.

people. There is increasingly a body of evidence that relates the level

:53:06.:53:09.

of sugar that we take through sugary drinks and our health problems. It

:53:10.:53:14.

isn't that simple, Downing Street decided against it, it is a complex

:53:15.:53:18.

issue, not just about the consumption of sugar, it is about

:53:19.:53:21.

the lack of exercise. Yes indeed and I think we will all be naive to

:53:22.:53:25.

suggest that this is a panacea for all our health problems, it is not

:53:26.:53:30.

but in my view I think it is a progressive initiative that should

:53:31.:53:33.

at least be explored. I think it is important to say that a number of

:53:34.:53:38.

countries have taken the initiative, like the Welsh Assembly which backed

:53:39.:53:44.

proposals to explore the sugar levy, what I am calling for it is an

:53:45.:53:47.

exploration, a fool public consultation, because it would be

:53:48.:53:51.

wrong in my view to ignore at the 24% of our children and young people

:53:52.:53:58.

who are be said for the 33% to -- diabetes increase, it would be

:53:59.:54:02.

foolish of us to not respond to that accordingly. Yes it is complex, yes

:54:03.:54:06.

it is not an initiative that will solve all of our problems on their

:54:07.:54:11.

own, but it is certainly one that we would be foolhardy to ignore. It

:54:12.:54:15.

might prove electoral lorry very unpopular. I do not think there will

:54:16.:54:20.

be consensus on this and that is what we are calling for, we are

:54:21.:54:23.

calling within this legislation for the Health Minister and the

:54:24.:54:28.

Department to conduct a full public consultation and that needs to

:54:29.:54:32.

include the full economic assessment impact in relation to the limitation

:54:33.:54:39.

of this proposed levy. As I said, we have increased public health issues,

:54:40.:54:42.

huge gap in terms of our health inequalities between those who have

:54:43.:54:47.

and have not, so we need to explore radical solutions and it has been

:54:48.:54:52.

backed up with scientific evidence elsewhere, particularly in Public

:54:53.:54:56.

Health England which has looked at the evidence and says it works.

:54:57.:55:00.

Simon Hamilton did not seem terribly enamoured with the idea when he

:55:01.:55:04.

responded to the suggestion, he did say he will consider it but we

:55:05.:55:09.

should not rush to pass something as significant as this without a proper

:55:10.:55:12.

debate. I suppose that is what you are saying, but he did not seem to

:55:13.:55:17.

be banging the drum for it as the outcome you're looking for. What I

:55:18.:55:21.

am calling for is the public consultation, I am calling for him

:55:22.:55:24.

to commit within one year of this legislation coming into place that

:55:25.:55:28.

he will conduct that consultation and let us explore the options and

:55:29.:55:33.

look at the evidence, look at the health inequalities, the

:55:34.:55:36.

relationship between sugar consumption and diabetes and let us

:55:37.:55:39.

look at what the economic impact of that would be. Can I ask you about

:55:40.:55:46.

another issue, Simon Hamilton's statement on gay men donating blood,

:55:47.:55:51.

do you welcome the change in approach to his two immediate

:55:52.:55:56.

predecessors? Clearly this is a significant shift from the DUP, both

:55:57.:56:02.

of the former health ministers, of which society in my view, very

:56:03.:56:07.

clearly took the position backed up by a court, that their view and

:56:08.:56:12.

position in terms of the ban on gay men donating blood was a rational

:56:13.:56:17.

and was laced with prejudice. If this is a significant shift from the

:56:18.:56:20.

current Health Minister then it is of course to be welcomed to stop I

:56:21.:56:24.

will call on him now to join with the rest of society and remove the

:56:25.:56:30.

ban. It is not appropriate that his party's own personal prejudice if

:56:31.:56:35.

you like have impacted in relation to policy issues on this issue.

:56:36.:56:36.

Thank you. Maeve McLaughlin in our

:56:37.:56:40.

Foyle studio, thank you. Let's see what Dawn

:56:41.:56:42.

and Paul make of that... Just a quick word on that issue, do

:56:43.:56:53.

you welcome mat? I do. I feel in a position, I have never been in a

:56:54.:56:56.

situation where I have needed blood but I have been in the situation

:56:57.:57:01.

worse someone very close to me was gravely ill and did need it and I

:57:02.:57:06.

can tell you at that point in time, the problems of the blood did not

:57:07.:57:09.

matter, it was the fact that they got the blood. It is interesting in

:57:10.:57:14.

terms of the wider DUP politics. The DUP seem to be moving towards the

:57:15.:57:19.

centre ground and I think there are interesting things happening in

:57:20.:57:23.

Unionist politics at the moment and I see it as block belonging in

:57:24.:57:27.

there. A quick word on that. Ministers should take professional

:57:28.:57:31.

advice in making these decisions rather than using personal beliefs.

:57:32.:57:37.

As in the abortion guidelines issue, what we have seen is Simon Hamilton

:57:38.:57:43.

move ahead of his Number 8 previous predecessors and I think that is to

:57:44.:57:48.

be welcomed. A quick word on the sugar levy, you persuaded by Maeve

:57:49.:57:53.

MacLachlan? It is a no-brainer. If we introduce a carrier bike tax, why

:57:54.:58:00.

are we not introducing a sugar tax to save our children's dental health

:58:01.:58:03.

and to improve general health in terms of diabetes. Do you agree? She

:58:04.:58:07.

is looking to have the issue explored and it is well worth doing

:58:08.:58:11.

that and having a public consultation and seeing what the

:58:12.:58:12.

evidence suggests. All right - let's just pause,

:58:13.:58:14.

briefly, to take a look back at the week in 60 seconds -

:58:15.:58:17.

with Gareth Gordon... The DUP's would be next leader says

:58:18.:58:32.

no. Arlene is clearly the person who should take the party forward. And

:58:33.:58:37.

Arlene Foster says she can work with Sinn Fein. Well of course I have

:58:38.:58:42.

worked with Martin since I was a minister back in 2007 right up until

:58:43.:58:48.

the present day, we have a working relationship and it will continue.

:58:49.:58:51.

The Health Minister stomps it out. Anyone whose Mark -- who smokes in a

:58:52.:58:57.

confined space like a car with children in the car is an idiot. The

:58:58.:59:02.

Secretary of State says she can deliver of deal for victims. I

:59:03.:59:08.

presided over talks that have delivered two landmark agreements

:59:09.:59:10.

for Northern Ireland. And the chuckle Brothers return or should

:59:11.:59:13.

that be... I will acknowledge... Just time for a final chat

:59:14.:59:28.

with Paul and Dawn... I suppose it is the end of an era

:59:29.:59:40.

with the departure of Peter Robinson and the coronation of Arlene Foster

:59:41.:59:43.

on Thursday. And a dramatic Sammy Wilson getting done in by a dummy

:59:44.:59:49.

run. It has been quite a week in politics. We'll Arlene's Coronation

:59:50.:59:55.

B a short reign given the election coming up? I think she has set

:59:56.:59:59.

herself out to be a bit of a target within the DUP. I wish her well in

:00:00.:00:04.

the post, but I think there are other more Machiavellian forces in

:00:05.:00:07.

the party at work. We regret to ask you both for your political story of

:00:08.:00:12.

the year and Paul, the elevation and rise of Arlene Foster is what you

:00:13.:00:20.

wanted to talk about. To me it is a major development. I think that

:00:21.:00:23.

Peter Robinson is an amazing strategist. I think that elections

:00:24.:00:27.

are won on the middle ground and the DUP are moving on to the middle

:00:28.:00:31.

ground. Listening to Mark Devenport talk to Peter Robinson on Friday

:00:32.:00:36.

night, and Peter Robinson is now portraying the DUP as a party where

:00:37.:00:41.

it ages not an issue, gender is not an issue, the fact that you belong

:00:42.:00:47.

to the UUP is not an issue and it is possibly a party that Catholics

:00:48.:00:50.

could support, I do not think we are at that point, but the DUP is it an

:00:51.:00:56.

interesting place. Mike Nesbitt should be worried. I think more

:00:57.:00:59.

inclined to see Arlene Foster move to the right in order to consolidate

:01:00.:01:04.

the party and keep them in the three line whip. That is interesting. What

:01:05.:01:11.

is your story? I had to. I think the first one was the referendum on

:01:12.:01:15.

equal marriage south of the border. For a country that is perceived as

:01:16.:01:19.

being very Conservative and very Catholic, the people as usual were

:01:20.:01:23.

way ahead of the politicians when it came to this issue, just as they

:01:24.:01:27.

work on the issue of abortion and polls north and south of the border

:01:28.:01:32.

as we have seen from the joint BBC and RTE poll show people are at the

:01:33.:01:34.

same level. Will David Cameron

:01:35.:01:35.

get his way in Europe? Are Labour MPs coming to terms

:01:36.:01:48.

with the idea that Jeremy Corbyn All questions for The Week Ahead

:01:49.:01:54.

and the Year Ahead. And joining us to gaze

:01:55.:02:08.

into our crystal ball for 2016 is the Conservative

:02:09.:02:10.

MP, James Cleverly. Welcome to the programme. If the

:02:11.:02:19.

Prime Minister cannot even get his minimum demands in the renegotiation

:02:20.:02:24.

with Europe, would you vote to leave? I've always felt his best

:02:25.:02:28.

chance of getting a good result from Europe is if there is a credible

:02:29.:02:32.

leave campaign, with people like me saying that if we don't get a good

:02:33.:02:37.

deal for Britain we would campaign to leave. That might feel like a

:02:38.:02:44.

stone in his shoe at the moment but unless people genuinely believe that

:02:45.:02:48.

he won't get the best deal for Britain.

:02:49.:02:58.

He says he rules nothing out. No one really believes the Prime Minister

:02:59.:03:03.

wants to leave the European Union or would lead a campaign to do so. But

:03:04.:03:08.

if the country as a whole is making those kind of noises, the people the

:03:09.:03:13.

Prime Minister is negotiating with, our partners in Europe, may think it

:03:14.:03:17.

is in their best interests to give him the deal he's looking for.

:03:18.:03:22.

Should he be asking for more? The Prime Minister is always at his best

:03:23.:03:27.

when his bold, I think you should be cheeky with the things he asks for,

:03:28.:03:35.

but recognise we are not going to get everything. Could we get more

:03:36.:03:46.

than he is asking for? The particular vehicle that he uses to

:03:47.:03:50.

get results shouldn't be quite so important as the results themselves.

:03:51.:03:55.

What you are not saying, but it is clear what you think, he should be

:03:56.:04:00.

tougher with Europe. I don't think it is possible to be tough enough

:04:01.:04:05.

with Europe. We've got to keep pushing and if we get something,

:04:06.:04:10.

push for more. Ultimately the deal he comes back with will be judged by

:04:11.:04:16.

the British people. I understand that. Tory politicians say that

:04:17.:04:19.

simply because they don't want to answer the questions I am asking

:04:20.:04:25.

because that is flannel. Most Conservative backbenchers I speak to

:04:26.:04:30.

think what he's asking for is not nearly enough. If he cannot even

:04:31.:04:34.

bring that back, I would suggest to you he will not carry a majority of

:04:35.:04:39.

his MPs in Parliament. The deal on the table... We have seen this from

:04:40.:04:44.

the Paris climate summit, the deals are done in the 11th hour so we will

:04:45.:04:49.

know what deal is on the table only at the 11th hour, then we will judge

:04:50.:04:55.

that deal when we see it. When you negotiate, you don't come out with

:04:56.:04:59.

demands and then as the negotiation goes on make these demands even

:05:00.:05:06.

greater! Yes, you do. I've never seen a negotiation like that, but

:05:07.:05:11.

good luck to you. What demand should he ask for that he's not asking for

:05:12.:05:17.

now? I will not try to second-guess because you have got to trade

:05:18.:05:21.

things, give a little bit there... I'm asking you to tell me what you

:05:22.:05:25.

think he should be asking of Europe that he's not asking at the moment.

:05:26.:05:30.

Most people would agree we want to have better control around who gets

:05:31.:05:36.

benefits. No, he's asking for that. Let me try one more time - what

:05:37.:05:41.

should he ask for that he's not asking for at the moment? As I said,

:05:42.:05:47.

I'm not going to second-guess that. I give up! Let me come on to Mr

:05:48.:05:54.

Corbyn. I would suggest to you, Tom Newton Dunn, that Jeremy Corbyn is

:05:55.:05:59.

ending this year in a much more secure position than it looked when

:06:00.:06:03.

he first got elected or at the Labour Party conference. I

:06:04.:06:08.

completely agree with you. When this crystallised was during the Syria

:06:09.:06:16.

vote, the week before last, when we thought the majority of Conservative

:06:17.:06:28.

MPs would abstain -- Labour MPs. Perhaps the Prime Minister's case

:06:29.:06:32.

wasn't that strong but they felt scared. The Corbyn machine, the

:06:33.:06:37.

unions put a lot of pressure on them and that was the turning point. He

:06:38.:06:42.

played his part in getting the Chancellor to withdraw on the tax

:06:43.:06:46.

credit front, he has carried the bulk of his Parliamentary party on

:06:47.:06:50.

Syria and most of his cabinet as well, and I would suggest, Helen,

:06:51.:06:56.

that the anti-Jeremy Corbyn forces are now bereft of a strategy. Yes,

:06:57.:07:01.

they have a huge problem that the members who voted for Jeremy Corbyn

:07:02.:07:07.

think he is doing really well. The PLP needs to get behind him. The

:07:08.:07:13.

problem is I think sometimes we get the narrative on Corbyn wrong. A lot

:07:14.:07:25.

of his deeply held principles, think about giving that free vote on

:07:26.:07:28.

Syria, he has been a member of the Stop The War coalition since it

:07:29.:07:36.

started, and yet he didn't say Acme or you will go. But he will now,

:07:37.:07:46.

given that he is ending the year in a pretty strong decision, he will, I

:07:47.:07:53.

suggest, in the New Year, start to remould the Labour Party much more

:07:54.:07:58.

in his image of what he stands for. Absolutely. I don't think there's

:07:59.:08:03.

much chance of being a successful challenge to Jeremy Corbyn in 2016

:08:04.:08:07.

and that's because the members are broadly behind him. The reason

:08:08.:08:10.

that's a disaster for the Labour Party is because of what will happen

:08:11.:08:14.

in September, the annual Labour Party conference by the seaside

:08:15.:08:19.

somewhere. They will use that moment to push through rule changes to make

:08:20.:08:23.

it harder for the Parliamentary Labour Party and mainstream forces

:08:24.:08:28.

to fight against what he wants, and to embed what they think in terms of

:08:29.:08:33.

official Labour Party positions and what Helen said he should do. When

:08:34.:08:42.

Mr Corbyn won the Labour leadership, the Conservatives thought Christmas

:08:43.:08:46.

had come early. He is actually proving to be a tougher leader than

:08:47.:08:51.

you thought. Only lazy observers would assume his leadership would

:08:52.:08:56.

make life easy for us. He galvanised a huge number of people in the

:08:57.:09:00.

country. I think he is so wrong on so many levels it is beyond belief

:09:01.:09:04.

but lots of other people seem to think he is right. We need to find

:09:05.:09:09.

ways of countering his political agenda because it is wrong and

:09:10.:09:13.

dangerous, but we need to do so at the same time as understanding why

:09:14.:09:17.

he managed to have such a grass-roots appeal. Although you all

:09:18.:09:22.

seem to be agreed he is ending the year on a strong note, the Labour

:09:23.:09:26.

Party Christmas party was not a lot of laughs, was it? What happened? It

:09:27.:09:33.

sounded like a slightly awkward occasion. This is the moment when

:09:34.:09:38.

all of the Labour Party staff get together, a free fake, one of the

:09:39.:09:42.

Shadow Cabinet plays Santa. You've got to picture the scene, about ten

:09:43.:09:47.

tables of staff who all pretty much come from the mainstream, and one

:09:48.:09:52.

and a half tables of allies of Jeremy Corbyn huddled in one part,

:09:53.:09:57.

and the two clans didn't really mix. There was only one real moment of

:09:58.:10:02.

dissent it felt like when somebody at around 1115 PM Port Things Can

:10:03.:10:11.

Only Get Better on, and that is about as open as Labour Party

:10:12.:10:16.

revolts get. I want to show you a Christmas party from the Daily

:10:17.:10:23.

Politics archive. Who is our secret Santa? Here he comes. It is a bit

:10:24.:10:32.

difficult to see. The first clue is that he is a Labour MP, he's been a

:10:33.:10:38.

member of Parliament since 1983 for the smallest constituency in

:10:39.:10:44.

Britain. Next clue, he is one of just 12 Labour MPs to back Plaid

:10:45.:10:49.

Cymru and the SNP's call for an inquiry into the war. Finally, he

:10:50.:11:00.

chairs the Parliamentary wing of CND, and you should know this, Meg?

:11:01.:11:17.

Jeremy Corbyn? I thought it was the real Santa! Yes please, thank you

:11:18.:11:32.

very much. Jeremy Corbyn, having more fun at the Daily Politics

:11:33.:11:36.

Christmas party than he did the Labour Party one.

:11:37.:11:41.

Will there be an EU referendum next year? No. Yes. Yes. No. By this time

:11:42.:11:51.

next year will Jeremy Corbyn still be a Labour leader? ALL: Yes.

:11:52.:12:03.

If David Cameron loses the referendum, will he be able to

:12:04.:12:09.

survive as Prime Minister? Yes. You have got to say that!

:12:10.:12:13.

Will Philip Hammond remained Foreign Secretary next year? On what? Will

:12:14.:12:21.

he remain Foreign Secretary? No. They might have to be a reshuffle.

:12:22.:12:28.

Hilary Benn, will he remain as Shadow Foreign Secretary? No. Will

:12:29.:12:34.

the Government finally approved a third runway at Heathrow? No,

:12:35.:12:40.

definitely not. Yes. No. Will we ever get to see the Chilcot inquiry

:12:41.:12:49.

in 2016? Yes. No. I don't know. Will Donald Trump win the Republican

:12:50.:12:55.

nomination next year? No. No. Who is going to be the new Mayor of London?

:12:56.:13:05.

Sadiq Khan. Probably Sadiq Khan, it is a Labour city. Zac Goldsmith, and

:13:06.:13:09.

it is not a Labour city, trust me. He would be much better at soaking

:13:10.:13:16.

up the second preference votes. That's a bit technical for us!

:13:17.:13:20.

That's all for today and, in fact, all from

:13:21.:13:22.

the Sunday Politics this year. I'll be back here on 10th January.

:13:23.:13:25.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:26.:13:27.

Unless, of course, it's the festive season.

:13:28.:13:29.

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

Andrew speaks to Conservative Peter Lilley about climate change, Labour's Yvette Cooper about refugees, shadow Treasury minister Richard Burgon on Stop the War and Conservative MP James Cleverly on Europe.

The newspapers are reviewed by Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Helen Lewis of the New Statesman and Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun.


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