Browse content similar to 06/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics. | 2:43:36 | 2:43:39 | |
Opt in or opt out - | 2:43:39 | 2:43:40 | |
how should the Assembly deal with the issue of organ donation? | 2:43:40 | 2:43:44 | |
I'll be talking to two MLAs at the forefront of that debate. | 2:43:44 | 2:43:48 | |
With the great success of Titanic Belfast, | 2:43:48 | 2:43:50 | |
why are surrounding businesses not benefitting | 2:43:50 | 2:43:53 | |
from the influx of visitors? | 2:43:53 | 2:43:55 | |
And with me throughout today, PR consultant Sheila Davidson | 2:43:55 | 2:43:58 | |
and commentator Chris Donnelly. | 2:43:58 | 2:44:00 | |
Well, there's a high level of support for the idea of organ donation, | 2:44:06 | 2:44:10 | |
at around 70% of the population. | 2:44:10 | 2:44:12 | |
Less than half that number have actually signed up | 2:44:12 | 2:44:15 | |
to the donation register. | 2:44:15 | 2:44:17 | |
So, how can the number of organs available | 2:44:17 | 2:44:19 | |
for life-saving transplants be increased? | 2:44:19 | 2:44:21 | |
The answer could be to follow Wales where, this week, a new law | 2:44:21 | 2:44:24 | |
came into force which states that, | 2:44:24 | 2:44:26 | |
unless you make it clear to the contrary, | 2:44:26 | 2:44:28 | |
the assumption is that after death you are happy | 2:44:28 | 2:44:30 | |
to have your organs donated. | 2:44:30 | 2:44:33 | |
Jo-Anne Dobson's the UUP Assembly Member who's trying to introduce | 2:44:33 | 2:44:36 | |
a similar law here. | 2:44:36 | 2:44:37 | |
Alastair Ross from the DUP isn't convinced that's the path | 2:44:37 | 2:44:40 | |
we should go down. | 2:44:40 | 2:44:42 | |
You're both welcome to the programme. | 2:44:42 | 2:44:44 | |
Jo-Anne Dobson, why do you believe the so-called "soft opt out" system's | 2:44:44 | 2:44:48 | |
the right road for Northern Ireland? | 2:44:48 | 2:44:50 | |
Because it's worked so well in other countries across Europe, and Wales, | 2:44:50 | 2:44:55 | |
as you say, has gone down the route with soft opt out earlier this week. | 2:44:55 | 2:44:58 | |
Why should Northern Ireland be left behind? | 2:44:58 | 2:45:01 | |
There's widespread support, as you articulated | 2:45:01 | 2:45:03 | |
at the start of the presentation, for organ donation | 2:45:03 | 2:45:06 | |
and can I just pay tribute, Mark, to those charities that have done | 2:45:06 | 2:45:10 | |
the heavy lifting around organ donation? | 2:45:10 | 2:45:13 | |
And I know, I've been involved with them for over 20 years. | 2:45:13 | 2:45:16 | |
But we can't get past the plateau | 2:45:16 | 2:45:19 | |
in the low 30s on the organ donation register, | 2:45:19 | 2:45:22 | |
so to bridge that gap, we need to do something to make this happen. | 2:45:22 | 2:45:26 | |
You're a member of the Health Committee. | 2:45:26 | 2:45:27 | |
The Health Committee is dealing with this issue, | 2:45:27 | 2:45:30 | |
looking at your proposed legislation at the moment | 2:45:30 | 2:45:32 | |
and a number of very senior surgical clinicians | 2:45:32 | 2:45:35 | |
presented to the committee this week and they urged caution. | 2:45:35 | 2:45:39 | |
They suggested that we should just steady the horses | 2:45:39 | 2:45:42 | |
and perhaps look at the Welsh model and then make a decision | 2:45:42 | 2:45:46 | |
based on the data which currently, in the UK, isn't available. | 2:45:46 | 2:45:50 | |
Yes, we had a very, very useful presentation on Wednesday, | 2:45:50 | 2:45:54 | |
but every single year, we lose people. | 2:45:54 | 2:45:57 | |
The last year... This year, 17 local people died waiting on an organ. | 2:45:57 | 2:46:01 | |
The year before, it was 15. | 2:46:01 | 2:46:02 | |
So, for me, a wait-and-see approach, | 2:46:02 | 2:46:04 | |
meanwhile local people continue to die. | 2:46:04 | 2:46:07 | |
It was a fantastic presentation from the clinicians | 2:46:07 | 2:46:10 | |
and I know they had widespread support with, I think, | 2:46:10 | 2:46:14 | |
one exception for soft opt out. | 2:46:14 | 2:46:16 | |
Yeah, but here's the danger, Jo-Anne Dobson - I mean, | 2:46:16 | 2:46:18 | |
nobody doubts for a second what is motivating you to make things better, | 2:46:18 | 2:46:23 | |
that's not the issue. But I think what some of the clinicians said | 2:46:23 | 2:46:26 | |
in their presentation was they have a real | 2:46:26 | 2:46:28 | |
and very genuine fear that, if this is mishandled in any way, | 2:46:28 | 2:46:33 | |
the situation could be even worse | 2:46:33 | 2:46:35 | |
and fewer people may donate organs in future | 2:46:35 | 2:46:38 | |
and that would be the opposite outcome | 2:46:38 | 2:46:40 | |
of what you are campaigning so hard for. | 2:46:40 | 2:46:43 | |
Now, if those senior clinicians are saying that, you need to listen. | 2:46:43 | 2:46:47 | |
But if you'd listened to all of the presentation, Mark, | 2:46:47 | 2:46:50 | |
they have support for soft opt out. | 2:46:50 | 2:46:52 | |
Yes, they said it has to be the right legislation, | 2:46:52 | 2:46:54 | |
the right bill, and I have said from the very, very start, | 2:46:54 | 2:46:58 | |
and I sat here with you two years ago when I was presenting, | 2:46:58 | 2:47:01 | |
and Alastair was beside me then, on the bill, | 2:47:01 | 2:47:03 | |
it has to be the right bill and I'm open to amendments. | 2:47:03 | 2:47:06 | |
And I'm delighted that, led by Professor John Connolly, | 2:47:06 | 2:47:09 | |
those clinicians will have their input into this bill | 2:47:09 | 2:47:12 | |
going forward and I wouldn't have it any other way. | 2:47:12 | 2:47:14 | |
Alastair Ross, let's just bring you in at this stage. | 2:47:14 | 2:47:17 | |
What are your reservations? | 2:47:17 | 2:47:19 | |
As Jo-Anne Dobson says, for some people in Northern Ireland, | 2:47:19 | 2:47:22 | |
for too many people in Northern Ireland, the clock is ticking | 2:47:22 | 2:47:26 | |
and they don't have the option to wait. | 2:47:26 | 2:47:28 | |
Why would you want to do anything that might slow down a process | 2:47:28 | 2:47:31 | |
-that could save lives? -I don't want to and I think it's unfortunate | 2:47:31 | 2:47:34 | |
sometimes that those of us who are opposed to presumed consent | 2:47:34 | 2:47:37 | |
have the inferences that we're not as interested in saving lives. | 2:47:37 | 2:47:40 | |
That's unfortunate that that has come into the debate. | 2:47:40 | 2:47:42 | |
I think we have to listen to the clinicians. | 2:47:42 | 2:47:44 | |
The clinicians have all urged, unanimously urged, | 2:47:44 | 2:47:47 | |
caution on moving towards a presumed consent model. | 2:47:47 | 2:47:49 | |
I listened to the presentation of the Health Committee, | 2:47:49 | 2:47:52 | |
I've read the letter that was sent to the minister | 2:47:52 | 2:47:54 | |
and why they did that is because the evidence is incredibly sketchy. | 2:47:54 | 2:47:57 | |
We can look at some countries where an opt out system | 2:47:57 | 2:47:59 | |
has better rates of organ donation, but you can also look at France | 2:47:59 | 2:48:03 | |
and Sweden, Brazil, places where they have a much lower rate | 2:48:03 | 2:48:06 | |
of organ donation but they have the presumed consent model. | 2:48:06 | 2:48:09 | |
And the two countries with the best rates are USA and Spain, | 2:48:09 | 2:48:11 | |
both of which have an opt in system, a voluntary system. | 2:48:11 | 2:48:14 | |
I don't think it's necessary, the clinicians have said | 2:48:14 | 2:48:16 | |
we've a very good rate here, we're improving all the time. | 2:48:16 | 2:48:18 | |
I don't think the evidence is there to suggest it would work | 2:48:18 | 2:48:21 | |
even if we wanted to do it. | 2:48:21 | 2:48:22 | |
I think the most important thing is around this issue of consent, | 2:48:22 | 2:48:25 | |
that there's no other area of medicine or law in which | 2:48:25 | 2:48:28 | |
consent would be presumed. | 2:48:28 | 2:48:29 | |
We have to get to a point where members of the community | 2:48:29 | 2:48:32 | |
are able to give their informed expressed consent | 2:48:32 | 2:48:35 | |
during their life for what happens to them when they die. | 2:48:35 | 2:48:37 | |
That'll give certainty to families | 2:48:37 | 2:48:39 | |
who are in very difficult circumstances | 2:48:39 | 2:48:40 | |
in trauma units, rather than because 108 members in the Assembly | 2:48:40 | 2:48:44 | |
pass a bill that consent is somehow presumed. | 2:48:44 | 2:48:46 | |
I don't think that's an ethically sound way of proceeding. | 2:48:46 | 2:48:48 | |
But, of course, there are all sorts of safety nets | 2:48:48 | 2:48:51 | |
in the draft legislation at the moment. | 2:48:51 | 2:48:52 | |
I mean, there would have to be a qualifying person who would | 2:48:52 | 2:48:56 | |
affirm that the deceased person wouldn't have objected to | 2:48:56 | 2:48:59 | |
organ donation and that's a key part to this conversation. | 2:48:59 | 2:49:02 | |
Nobody's suggesting that organs would be harvested | 2:49:02 | 2:49:04 | |
without the family fully agreeing to that. | 2:49:04 | 2:49:06 | |
I fully accept that, in practice, | 2:49:06 | 2:49:08 | |
families will have a veto even if the drafting of the bill doesn't | 2:49:08 | 2:49:11 | |
quite make that clear in law, | 2:49:11 | 2:49:12 | |
but what we want to do is make sure that those families in trauma units | 2:49:12 | 2:49:15 | |
have absolute certainty, | 2:49:15 | 2:49:16 | |
that's how we get the family consent rate higher. | 2:49:16 | 2:49:18 | |
And my fear is moving towards an opt out presumed consent model | 2:49:18 | 2:49:21 | |
means that individuals don't have to make a decision during their lives | 2:49:21 | 2:49:25 | |
and silence on their preference cannot ever be given | 2:49:25 | 2:49:28 | |
the same equation as actual consent. | 2:49:28 | 2:49:31 | |
And, as I've said before, | 2:49:31 | 2:49:33 | |
there's no other area of medicine or law in which | 2:49:33 | 2:49:35 | |
silence on an issue will be seen in law as actual consent. | 2:49:35 | 2:49:38 | |
Well, that's a very interesting point just to bring in the thoughts | 2:49:38 | 2:49:41 | |
of one consultant, Tim Brown. | 2:49:41 | 2:49:42 | |
He told the committee that he's got serious reservations | 2:49:42 | 2:49:45 | |
about assuming someone has given consent | 2:49:45 | 2:49:47 | |
when, in fact, that consent hasn't been specifically given. | 2:49:47 | 2:49:50 | |
Let's just take a look at what he had to say. | 2:49:50 | 2:49:53 | |
I personally do have an objection to soft opt out. | 2:49:53 | 2:49:56 | |
I think it's... | 2:49:56 | 2:49:57 | |
I think one of the very overarching tenets of medical ethics | 2:49:57 | 2:50:01 | |
is the concept of autonomy and I think that opting out... | 2:50:01 | 2:50:07 | |
I think assuming that somebody has given consent | 2:50:07 | 2:50:11 | |
when they have not given consent is a violation of autonomy | 2:50:11 | 2:50:15 | |
and I would have grave concern that that soft opt out | 2:50:15 | 2:50:19 | |
would be in direct competition with the concept of autonomy. | 2:50:19 | 2:50:22 | |
That's effectively what Alastair Ross is talking about. | 2:50:22 | 2:50:25 | |
Now, Tim Brown, as I understand, did go on to say that, if it was proved | 2:50:25 | 2:50:29 | |
to work, then clearly he would have to look at that again | 2:50:29 | 2:50:32 | |
and he clearly wants as many people to donate organs | 2:50:32 | 2:50:35 | |
in those circumstances as possible. | 2:50:35 | 2:50:37 | |
But what do you say to Tim Brown and to Alastair Ross | 2:50:37 | 2:50:40 | |
on that issue of assumed, presumed consent? | 2:50:40 | 2:50:43 | |
It's family consent. The family will have the final say | 2:50:43 | 2:50:46 | |
and that's always been from the very, very start... | 2:50:46 | 2:50:49 | |
Why are you shaking your head? That's a fact. | 2:50:49 | 2:50:51 | |
Because Clause Four is all about deemed consent, | 2:50:51 | 2:50:53 | |
-which is presumed consent. -It's a first draft. | 2:50:53 | 2:50:56 | |
If this was about trying to push up family consent rates - fantastic. | 2:50:56 | 2:50:59 | |
If it's about public awareness - fantastic. | 2:50:59 | 2:51:01 | |
If it's about specialist nurses in hospitals, | 2:51:01 | 2:51:03 | |
which is a big driver of organ donation, fantastic, but it's not. | 2:51:03 | 2:51:05 | |
Clause Four makes it absolutely crystal clear in law | 2:51:05 | 2:51:09 | |
that consent would be presumed | 2:51:09 | 2:51:10 | |
and I don't think that is an ethically sound way | 2:51:10 | 2:51:12 | |
-to proceed for organ donation. -Mark, can I come in here? -Please do. | 2:51:12 | 2:51:15 | |
That was a first draft. | 2:51:15 | 2:51:17 | |
I'm an individual backbench MLA bringing forward a very, | 2:51:17 | 2:51:21 | |
very important piece of legislation | 2:51:21 | 2:51:22 | |
and I'm open to amendments. I would ask Alastair and others | 2:51:22 | 2:51:25 | |
to work with me and bring forward those amendments | 2:51:25 | 2:51:28 | |
and those suggestions. I'm not precious about those amendments | 2:51:28 | 2:51:31 | |
to make it the right bill and that was reflected | 2:51:31 | 2:51:34 | |
by those clinicians who presented at the Health Committee. | 2:51:34 | 2:51:37 | |
Yes, but it's either presumed consent or it isn't presumed consent. | 2:51:37 | 2:51:40 | |
I mean, you can't amend the key point, | 2:51:40 | 2:51:43 | |
one of the key points to your draft legislation. | 2:51:43 | 2:51:46 | |
I mean, if Alastair Ross brought forward an amendment | 2:51:46 | 2:51:49 | |
that got rid of that Clause Four issue, | 2:51:49 | 2:51:52 | |
then it wouldn't be Jo-Anne Dobson's proposed legislation. | 2:51:52 | 2:51:55 | |
But it's the Northern Ireland Assembly, | 2:51:55 | 2:51:57 | |
I want it to be the legislation for the people of Northern Ireland. | 2:51:57 | 2:52:00 | |
It's not Jo-Anne Dobson's proposed legislation, | 2:52:00 | 2:52:02 | |
this is a bill to save lives right here in Northern Ireland. I work... | 2:52:02 | 2:52:06 | |
Sorry, are you saying you're prepared to negotiate on the issue | 2:52:06 | 2:52:09 | |
of presumed consent? | 2:52:09 | 2:52:10 | |
I'm prepared to meet with anyone to bring | 2:52:10 | 2:52:13 | |
the right bill for Northern Ireland. | 2:52:13 | 2:52:15 | |
What we have with second stage was the first draft. | 2:52:15 | 2:52:18 | |
I will meet with anyone. | 2:52:18 | 2:52:19 | |
And now, Mark, can I just say finally, | 2:52:19 | 2:52:21 | |
the department are working with me in the last three weeks. | 2:52:21 | 2:52:24 | |
I asked during the committee | 2:52:24 | 2:52:26 | |
when we had senior department officials, | 2:52:26 | 2:52:28 | |
given the commitment of the First and Deputy First Minister in 2013, | 2:52:28 | 2:52:31 | |
to support soft opt out. | 2:52:31 | 2:52:33 | |
What have they done to work towards this? | 2:52:33 | 2:52:36 | |
-And do you know what they have done? Nothing. -Right. | 2:52:36 | 2:52:38 | |
Now, in the last three weeks, | 2:52:38 | 2:52:39 | |
they're working to get the right bill for Northern Ireland. | 2:52:39 | 2:52:42 | |
I'll come to Alastair Ross in a second, | 2:52:42 | 2:52:43 | |
but here's a very important point. Your legislation, | 2:52:43 | 2:52:46 | |
your draft legislation, suggests that it wouldn't in fact | 2:52:46 | 2:52:48 | |
come on to the statute books until the spring of 2018, | 2:52:48 | 2:52:51 | |
-even if it was agreed in this mandate. -Yeah. | 2:52:51 | 2:52:53 | |
So why not take the time to sit and wait | 2:52:53 | 2:52:55 | |
and see what happens as far as the Welsh experience is concerned | 2:52:55 | 2:52:59 | |
and make sure that the legislation here in Northern Ireland | 2:52:59 | 2:53:02 | |
is bespoke for us? | 2:53:02 | 2:53:04 | |
Actually wait and see, learn from the Welsh experience and get it right. | 2:53:04 | 2:53:10 | |
Meanwhile, local people continue to die. | 2:53:10 | 2:53:12 | |
But that will happen anyway because your legislation won't happen | 2:53:12 | 2:53:15 | |
-until the spring of 2018. -But mine will go with the education programme | 2:53:15 | 2:53:19 | |
and the awareness programme around it as well. I'll... | 2:53:19 | 2:53:21 | |
But that's already happening. | 2:53:21 | 2:53:24 | |
Well, Clause One of the bill is a duty to promote that even further. | 2:53:24 | 2:53:27 | |
The Public Health Agency has had an awareness campaign. | 2:53:27 | 2:53:29 | |
They've had a fantastic campaign, | 2:53:29 | 2:53:31 | |
but still only in the mid 30s on the organ donation register. | 2:53:31 | 2:53:33 | |
For me personally, and for those people that are waiting on an organ, | 2:53:33 | 2:53:36 | |
a wait-and-see approach... | 2:53:36 | 2:53:38 | |
I think we owe it to the disserviced. | 2:53:38 | 2:53:40 | |
Let's get a good news story out of the Assembly, | 2:53:40 | 2:53:42 | |
let's do legislation that makes things happen. | 2:53:42 | 2:53:44 | |
But it needs to be right. | 2:53:44 | 2:53:46 | |
Of course it does and that's why I'm open to suggestions. | 2:53:46 | 2:53:48 | |
You were nodding when I was putting that point, Alastair Ross, | 2:53:48 | 2:53:51 | |
to Jo-Anne Dobson that we should wait and see | 2:53:51 | 2:53:53 | |
what happens in Wales, but here's the reality as far | 2:53:53 | 2:53:55 | |
as that's concerned and you need to take this on board. | 2:53:55 | 2:53:57 | |
Wales passed this legislation in 2013, | 2:53:57 | 2:53:59 | |
it came into effect last week in December 2015. | 2:53:59 | 2:54:02 | |
It was amended in-between. | 2:54:02 | 2:54:04 | |
As they realised they'd got little bits not quite right, | 2:54:04 | 2:54:06 | |
they actually tweaked them. So, we could look at the Welsh experience | 2:54:06 | 2:54:10 | |
and we could make the commitment in this mandate | 2:54:10 | 2:54:13 | |
to bring in presumed consent in spring 2018. | 2:54:13 | 2:54:16 | |
We can actually do both, that's the point. | 2:54:16 | 2:54:18 | |
-I don't think we need to. -But we could do. | 2:54:18 | 2:54:20 | |
There's very limited time left in this Assembly, | 2:54:20 | 2:54:22 | |
I don't think the Health Committee has been able | 2:54:22 | 2:54:24 | |
to give this as much scrutiny as they should. | 2:54:24 | 2:54:26 | |
It's rushed evidence sessions with the Health Committee. | 2:54:26 | 2:54:29 | |
They've closed the number of people who they're going to invite. | 2:54:29 | 2:54:31 | |
I don't want to see this rushed through. | 2:54:31 | 2:54:33 | |
It is a controversial piece of legislation. | 2:54:33 | 2:54:35 | |
I don't want to see organ donation became a controversial issue | 2:54:35 | 2:54:38 | |
and for that reason I think we need to listen to the experts | 2:54:38 | 2:54:40 | |
who are telling us, "Let's be cautious about this, | 2:54:40 | 2:54:42 | |
"let's look and see what happens in Wales." As you've acknowledged, | 2:54:42 | 2:54:45 | |
Jo-Anne's bill, even if it was passed tomorrow, | 2:54:45 | 2:54:48 | |
wouldn't become law until 2018. What is the rush? | 2:54:48 | 2:54:50 | |
Why not return to this in the new mandate | 2:54:50 | 2:54:52 | |
once we have some of the evidence there? | 2:54:52 | 2:54:53 | |
Because the evidence from elsewhere in the world would suggest | 2:54:53 | 2:54:56 | |
that it isn't going to be the major driver for organ donation. | 2:54:56 | 2:54:59 | |
OK, if the Welsh model proves to be correct | 2:54:59 | 2:55:01 | |
and presumed consent works, will you set aside your reservations? | 2:55:01 | 2:55:04 | |
If that turns out to be demonstrably better for patients | 2:55:04 | 2:55:07 | |
in Northern Ireland, will you then support it? | 2:55:07 | 2:55:09 | |
At least in those circumstances it will be evidence-based | 2:55:09 | 2:55:11 | |
where it's not at the moment. | 2:55:11 | 2:55:13 | |
No, I still have concerns around presumed consent. | 2:55:13 | 2:55:15 | |
I think consent is important, | 2:55:15 | 2:55:17 | |
I don't think that the 108 members of the Assembly | 2:55:17 | 2:55:19 | |
have the moral right to suggest that everybody in Northern Ireland | 2:55:19 | 2:55:22 | |
has given their consent when they have not, | 2:55:22 | 2:55:24 | |
so I want to get to a point where actually we can get people | 2:55:24 | 2:55:27 | |
to make a decision during their lives. That will help families | 2:55:27 | 2:55:29 | |
and I think working alongside the public awareness campaign | 2:55:29 | 2:55:32 | |
that I absolutely support, | 2:55:32 | 2:55:33 | |
working along the specialist nurses in hospitals | 2:55:33 | 2:55:35 | |
-which is the key component... -We need to leave it there. | 2:55:35 | 2:55:38 | |
-..that's how we push organ donation. -Stay with us. | 2:55:38 | 2:55:40 | |
It's very interesting to hear your thoughts. | 2:55:40 | 2:55:42 | |
Let's hear what Sheila Davidson and Chris Donnelly | 2:55:42 | 2:55:44 | |
have to say in response. | 2:55:44 | 2:55:46 | |
What do you make, Sheila, of the notion of presumed consent? | 2:55:46 | 2:55:51 | |
I think it's absolutely fundamental that we accept that presumed consent | 2:55:51 | 2:55:55 | |
is the way forward for transplants. | 2:55:55 | 2:55:58 | |
70% of the population wants this, | 2:55:58 | 2:56:00 | |
but apathy reigns with most people. | 2:56:00 | 2:56:03 | |
When you get this into legislation, it becomes something then | 2:56:03 | 2:56:06 | |
that everybody has to seriously consider. | 2:56:06 | 2:56:08 | |
And I think the opt out option is far better because then, | 2:56:08 | 2:56:11 | |
if you really do have a fundamental, moral, ethical | 2:56:11 | 2:56:15 | |
or any other kind of objection to it, you make that happen. | 2:56:15 | 2:56:18 | |
But here's the point - let's say one instance is badly handled. | 2:56:18 | 2:56:22 | |
Some sort of confusion arises | 2:56:22 | 2:56:24 | |
and a family is very upset in very sensitive | 2:56:24 | 2:56:27 | |
and very difficult circumstances. | 2:56:27 | 2:56:29 | |
That could have a hugely detrimental impact on organ donation levels. | 2:56:29 | 2:56:33 | |
-Is that a risk worth taking? -Yes, it is. | 2:56:33 | 2:56:35 | |
That's what opponents of Jo-Anne Dobson's bill say. | 2:56:35 | 2:56:38 | |
It is absolutely a risk worth taking because those risks are being taken | 2:56:38 | 2:56:41 | |
day and daily in the health service as we speak. | 2:56:41 | 2:56:43 | |
I mean, when you have the kinds of exposes we've had | 2:56:43 | 2:56:47 | |
previously of families feeling that, | 2:56:47 | 2:56:50 | |
when they had organ retention, which was actually just | 2:56:50 | 2:56:54 | |
slivers of samples and that sort of thing, became such a huge issue, | 2:56:54 | 2:56:57 | |
it's always going to happen, but that's not going to save lives | 2:56:57 | 2:56:59 | |
and I think Jo-Anne's absolutely right to pursue this. | 2:56:59 | 2:57:02 | |
-Chris, where do you stand on this? -I think Jo-Anne is to be commended | 2:57:02 | 2:57:05 | |
for bringing this legislation. | 2:57:05 | 2:57:06 | |
I understand Alastair's point with the ethical argument, | 2:57:06 | 2:57:09 | |
but this is about saving lives and I think presumed consent, | 2:57:09 | 2:57:12 | |
the soft opt out model, is the way to go. | 2:57:12 | 2:57:15 | |
I do appreciate, if you look at the models of best practice, | 2:57:15 | 2:57:18 | |
particularly the Spanish system, the opt... | 2:57:18 | 2:57:20 | |
In terms of increasing the potential donor pool | 2:57:20 | 2:57:23 | |
on its own isn't normally enough. | 2:57:23 | 2:57:25 | |
The Spanish system, they have teams of transplant coordinators | 2:57:25 | 2:57:28 | |
who are very effective at ensuring that opportunities | 2:57:28 | 2:57:31 | |
for organ donation are not missed, | 2:57:31 | 2:57:33 | |
they're very good at working with the families | 2:57:33 | 2:57:35 | |
to ensure that consent is followed through. | 2:57:35 | 2:57:37 | |
So I think we need to do more than just move on the soft opt out model, | 2:57:37 | 2:57:40 | |
we need to move on that as well at the same time. | 2:57:40 | 2:57:43 | |
OK. Thanks, we'll hear more from both of you again very shortly | 2:57:43 | 2:57:47 | |
and thanks to the politicians. | 2:57:47 | 2:57:48 | |
We'll keep a very close eye on that over the next few weeks. | 2:57:48 | 2:57:52 | |
Let's just pause at this stage though and take a look back | 2:57:52 | 2:57:54 | |
at the political week in 60 seconds with Gareth Gordon. | 2:57:54 | 2:57:57 | |
A judge rules abortion laws here are in breach of human rights | 2:58:02 | 2:58:06 | |
and new draft guidelines are issued, but confusion remains. | 2:58:06 | 2:58:10 | |
In the face of the court decision, | 2:58:10 | 2:58:12 | |
we've now got a conflicting issue of guidance which seems to me | 2:58:12 | 2:58:15 | |
to have been out-of-date four or five hours before it was circulated. | 2:58:15 | 2:58:19 | |
Parliament votes to back airstrikes in Syria, | 2:58:19 | 2:58:22 | |
but differing views from local MPs. | 2:58:22 | 2:58:24 | |
We need to protect people, our own citizens now | 2:58:24 | 2:58:27 | |
when there is a real and present danger to them. | 2:58:27 | 2:58:29 | |
There is a severe risk of feeding what we are trying to fight. | 2:58:29 | 2:58:34 | |
The veteran SDLP MLA Pat Ramsey announces he's quitting politics | 2:58:34 | 2:58:39 | |
and a former finance minister | 2:58:39 | 2:58:41 | |
shows what he thinks of Stormont's Nama Inquiry. | 2:58:41 | 2:58:43 | |
Had I not made the promise, I doubt very much if I would've come along | 2:58:43 | 2:58:48 | |
to grace the kind of Mickey Mouse exercise which has been undertaken. | 2:58:48 | 2:58:53 | |
And things get a little hot under the collar | 2:58:53 | 2:58:55 | |
across the Assembly benches. | 2:58:55 | 2:58:57 | |
I'm not sure, though, how she felt my passion, | 2:58:57 | 2:59:00 | |
I hope it was as good for her as it was for me. | 2:59:00 | 2:59:02 | |
The king of the risque aside, | 2:59:09 | 2:59:11 | |
Mark H Durkan ending that look back at the week from Gareth Gordon. | 2:59:11 | 2:59:15 | |
Now, ministers took to the waters of Belfast Lough this week to support | 2:59:15 | 2:59:18 | |
the latest government-backed tourism project - the multimillion pound | 2:59:18 | 2:59:22 | |
restoration of HMS Caroline. | 2:59:22 | 2:59:23 | |
When the ship opens its door to the public | 2:59:23 | 2:59:25 | |
as a floating museum in six months, it'll be hoping to cash in | 2:59:25 | 2:59:28 | |
on the success of the Titanic Belfast building, | 2:59:28 | 2:59:31 | |
but some projects are finding that more difficult | 2:59:31 | 2:59:33 | |
than you might think. | 2:59:33 | 2:59:35 | |
We sent Kevin Magee down to the Lagan to investigate. | 2:59:35 | 2:59:38 | |
Titanic Belfast is a monument to our maritime past | 2:59:42 | 2:59:46 | |
and the flagship tourism project of the future. | 2:59:46 | 2:59:49 | |
Last year, 700,000 visitors passed through its doors. | 2:59:49 | 2:59:53 | |
Tourism is one of the Executive's key target areas for economic growth | 2:59:53 | 2:59:58 | |
and this building symbolises what it's trying to achieve. | 2:59:58 | 3:00:02 | |
Its visitor numbers are up, | 3:00:02 | 3:00:04 | |
but are the benefits being spread across the entire economy? | 3:00:04 | 3:00:08 | |
Ministers hoist the flag for the Executive | 3:00:10 | 3:00:12 | |
to mark the six-month countdown to the opening of the HMS Caroline, | 3:00:12 | 3:00:17 | |
the latest visitor attraction in Titanic Quarter. | 3:00:17 | 3:00:20 | |
Once completed, the First World War ship will be hoping to cash in on | 3:00:20 | 3:00:24 | |
the numbers visiting its much larger neighbour, the Titanic building. | 3:00:24 | 3:00:29 | |
The planning for the operational phase forward, | 3:00:29 | 3:00:31 | |
clearly we will be having a number of discussions | 3:00:31 | 3:00:35 | |
with Titanic Belfast on how we can mutually work together. | 3:00:35 | 3:00:40 | |
The Enterprise Minister Jonathan Bell | 3:00:40 | 3:00:42 | |
says the Executive's tourism strategy is working. | 3:00:42 | 3:00:45 | |
Titanic Belfast is a tremendous success, | 3:00:45 | 3:00:48 | |
hitting well over 90% of its targets, | 3:00:48 | 3:00:50 | |
bringing in 2.5 million people to this country, | 3:00:50 | 3:00:53 | |
bringing in the spending power of 2.5 million people. | 3:00:53 | 3:00:56 | |
I actually believe a rising tide lifts all boats. | 3:00:56 | 3:01:00 | |
But it hasn't lifted this one - a tour operator on the Lagan | 3:01:00 | 3:01:04 | |
believes Titanic Belfast is hoovering up all the tourist spend | 3:01:04 | 3:01:08 | |
along the river. | 3:01:08 | 3:01:09 | |
Since it opened in 2012, his public tour business has nosedived. | 3:01:09 | 3:01:14 | |
Since Titanic Belfast has opened, things have changed radically. | 3:01:14 | 3:01:17 | |
Not just for me, for a lot of small businesses, tour businesses | 3:01:17 | 3:01:20 | |
and stuff around the harbour particularly. | 3:01:20 | 3:01:23 | |
We're fighting against a multimillion pound business there | 3:01:23 | 3:01:27 | |
that was funded by the taxpayer and charities or whatever, | 3:01:27 | 3:01:31 | |
European Union, I don't know all their financials, | 3:01:31 | 3:01:34 | |
but, you know, it's a big marketing budget we're fighting against | 3:01:34 | 3:01:37 | |
and our business went down about 80% the day it opened. | 3:01:37 | 3:01:39 | |
Never really recovered. | 3:01:39 | 3:01:41 | |
It's not just the river tours that haven't shared in | 3:01:42 | 3:01:45 | |
the large number of tourists going to Titanic Belfast. | 3:01:45 | 3:01:49 | |
The Thompson Dock Pump-house and Cafe haven't experienced | 3:01:49 | 3:01:53 | |
much of a lift and, further up the river, | 3:01:53 | 3:01:55 | |
the Belfast Barge Museum, like the river tours, | 3:01:55 | 3:01:59 | |
has actually recorded a fall off in visitor numbers | 3:01:59 | 3:02:02 | |
since 2012 when the Titanic centre opened. | 3:02:02 | 3:02:06 | |
It's had to cut staff after its visitor numbers fell. | 3:02:06 | 3:02:09 | |
It was down quite dramatically, | 3:02:09 | 3:02:11 | |
I would say there was about a 50% drop. | 3:02:11 | 3:02:13 | |
Now, we've recovered some of that. | 3:02:13 | 3:02:16 | |
You would hope, especially with the amount of international people | 3:02:16 | 3:02:19 | |
that it would've brought in, that they wouldn't just see | 3:02:19 | 3:02:22 | |
the one place, they would go to them all. | 3:02:22 | 3:02:25 | |
Unfortunately, that's not what we've experienced. | 3:02:25 | 3:02:27 | |
I would say that the barge museum has actually been more supported | 3:02:27 | 3:02:32 | |
by local people that have been really invested in the story | 3:02:32 | 3:02:35 | |
and we haven't seen the positive effects | 3:02:35 | 3:02:38 | |
of, you know, increased visitor numbers internationally. | 3:02:38 | 3:02:42 | |
This charity cafe in the shadow of the Titanic building | 3:02:42 | 3:02:45 | |
is run by a church minister. | 3:02:45 | 3:02:47 | |
He's also behind the tram that aims to move visitors | 3:02:47 | 3:02:50 | |
from Titanic Belfast to other nearby attractions, | 3:02:50 | 3:02:54 | |
spreading the tourist pound. | 3:02:54 | 3:02:56 | |
The tram has only just started, | 3:02:56 | 3:02:58 | |
we've just had our first season of operation. | 3:02:58 | 3:03:00 | |
It started fairly small, yes. | 3:03:00 | 3:03:02 | |
So, we've had a couple of thousand people on in the first year | 3:03:02 | 3:03:05 | |
and that's really exciting. | 3:03:05 | 3:03:06 | |
Is the overspill happening to the degree that you would've hoped? | 3:03:06 | 3:03:10 | |
Er, I think I'll say not yet, | 3:03:10 | 3:03:12 | |
but I don't see that as the end of the story, | 3:03:12 | 3:03:14 | |
I just see it... We're on the first chapter | 3:03:14 | 3:03:17 | |
and there's so much work still to be done, | 3:03:17 | 3:03:19 | |
so many opportunities still to be explored, so I think it'll be | 3:03:19 | 3:03:22 | |
very exciting to see where it goes next year and in the years to come. | 3:03:22 | 3:03:26 | |
The Titanic building cost £77 million to construct. | 3:03:26 | 3:03:30 | |
Most of the funding, 60 million, came from the public purse. | 3:03:30 | 3:03:33 | |
So, should it be doing more to encourage its visitors | 3:03:33 | 3:03:36 | |
to visit other tourist-related businesses? | 3:03:36 | 3:03:39 | |
It says it already is. | 3:03:39 | 3:03:42 | |
If you look at the statistics | 3:03:42 | 3:03:43 | |
and the £120 million that we've generated in the local economy | 3:03:43 | 3:03:47 | |
in the first three years, | 3:03:47 | 3:03:48 | |
if you look at the occupancy rate of the hotels, which is now at 80%, | 3:03:48 | 3:03:52 | |
if you look at the cruise ships which has grown from 10 | 3:03:52 | 3:03:54 | |
through to 75 next year, if you look at the coach operators, | 3:03:54 | 3:03:58 | |
we've got 120,000 coach operator visitors coming this year... | 3:03:58 | 3:04:02 | |
There is a trickle-down effect already. | 3:04:02 | 3:04:04 | |
You do have to be competitive | 3:04:04 | 3:04:05 | |
and you have to fight for your place in the market. | 3:04:05 | 3:04:08 | |
When Titanic Belfast took over the SS Nomadic, | 3:04:08 | 3:04:11 | |
its visitor numbers trebled. | 3:04:11 | 3:04:14 | |
But for private tour operator Derek Booker, that hasn't happened. | 3:04:14 | 3:04:18 | |
His main concern remains that his public tour business | 3:04:18 | 3:04:21 | |
won't suffer the same fate as the tragic liner herself. | 3:04:21 | 3:04:25 | |
Kevin Magee reporting on the challenges of surviving | 3:04:27 | 3:04:29 | |
in the shadow of Titanic Belfast. | 3:04:29 | 3:04:31 | |
Let's have a final word with Sheila and Chris. | 3:04:31 | 3:04:33 | |
Sheila, there's the juxtaposition, a big project built | 3:04:33 | 3:04:37 | |
with public money and a huge marketing budget, and the little guy. | 3:04:37 | 3:04:40 | |
Yes. I mean, I remember, my very first experience of Titanic anything | 3:04:40 | 3:04:43 | |
was on the boat tour and it was wonderful, | 3:04:43 | 3:04:46 | |
but the problem is the investment has not been there | 3:04:46 | 3:04:49 | |
and even though they are private sector businesses, | 3:04:49 | 3:04:51 | |
they should have had some more marketing support, | 3:04:51 | 3:04:53 | |
even capital support, to be able to deliver a product that is good, | 3:04:53 | 3:04:56 | |
because the Titanic signature building is plonked in the middle | 3:04:56 | 3:05:00 | |
of the Titanic area, but there's very little connectivity. | 3:05:00 | 3:05:03 | |
And I think that a little bit more joined-up thinking could actually | 3:05:03 | 3:05:06 | |
help those businesses and trickle down from the signature building. | 3:05:06 | 3:05:09 | |
Chris, I wanted to ask you about something separate | 3:05:09 | 3:05:11 | |
which is quite interesting. Sinn Fein's been under a lot of pressure, | 3:05:11 | 3:05:14 | |
we know, for signing up to the Fresh Start deal. | 3:05:14 | 3:05:16 | |
Now the party seems to have got support | 3:05:16 | 3:05:19 | |
from, let's say, an unlikely quarter. | 3:05:19 | 3:05:21 | |
Yes, I thought it was interesting during the week, | 3:05:21 | 3:05:23 | |
the Northern Ireland committee of the ICTU, | 3:05:23 | 3:05:25 | |
an umbrella trade union organisation, | 3:05:25 | 3:05:28 | |
released a statement which was quite stridently different in tone | 3:05:28 | 3:05:32 | |
from their position after the Stormont House Agreement | 3:05:32 | 3:05:34 | |
just 11 months ago in January, when they came out | 3:05:34 | 3:05:37 | |
and called the Stormont House Agreement a bad deal. | 3:05:37 | 3:05:39 | |
They took out newspaper advertisements very critical | 3:05:39 | 3:05:42 | |
of the deal at the time and that was unprecedented | 3:05:42 | 3:05:45 | |
at the time, that they would come out against, | 3:05:45 | 3:05:47 | |
the first time the unions had come out against a deal | 3:05:47 | 3:05:49 | |
between the representatives of the two different communities. | 3:05:49 | 3:05:52 | |
And we know that, at that time, | 3:05:52 | 3:05:54 | |
the DUP were very stung by that statement by Peter Robinson - | 3:05:54 | 3:05:57 | |
Sammy Wilson condemned that. | 3:05:57 | 3:05:59 | |
Sinn Fein, within two months however, moved away | 3:05:59 | 3:06:01 | |
from the Stormont House Agreement | 3:06:01 | 3:06:03 | |
and, in a sense, that suggested that the unions had formed | 3:06:03 | 3:06:06 | |
a connection with Sinn Fein, they'd influenced them. | 3:06:06 | 3:06:08 | |
Now, at this moment when Sinn Fein are quite vulnerable | 3:06:08 | 3:06:10 | |
because of the Fresh Start deal, | 3:06:10 | 3:06:12 | |
the unions have come out with a line which kind of reflects | 3:06:12 | 3:06:17 | |
-the Sinn Fein position about this being a better deal over... -OK. | 3:06:17 | 3:06:20 | |
..direct rule would be unimaginable consequences, | 3:06:20 | 3:06:23 | |
that's quite interesting. | 3:06:23 | 3:06:24 | |
Need to leave it there, thanks both very much indeed. | 3:06:24 | 3:06:27 | |
That's it from Sunday Politics for this week. | 3:06:27 | 3:06:29 | |
Join me for Stormont Today, that's on BBC Two at 11:20 on Monday night. | 3:06:29 | 3:06:32 | |
But, for now, from everyone in the team, thanks for watching. | 3:06:32 | 3:06:35 | |
Bye-bye. | 3:06:35 | 3:06:36 |