06/12/2015 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


06/12/2015

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 06/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.

2:43:362:43:39

Opt in or opt out -

2:43:392:43:40

how should the Assembly deal with the issue of organ donation?

2:43:402:43:44

I'll be talking to two MLAs at the forefront of that debate.

2:43:442:43:48

With the great success of Titanic Belfast,

2:43:482:43:50

why are surrounding businesses not benefitting

2:43:502:43:53

from the influx of visitors?

2:43:532:43:55

And with me throughout today, PR consultant Sheila Davidson

2:43:552:43:58

and commentator Chris Donnelly.

2:43:582:44:00

Well, there's a high level of support for the idea of organ donation,

2:44:062:44:10

at around 70% of the population.

2:44:102:44:12

Less than half that number have actually signed up

2:44:122:44:15

to the donation register.

2:44:152:44:17

So, how can the number of organs available

2:44:172:44:19

for life-saving transplants be increased?

2:44:192:44:21

The answer could be to follow Wales where, this week, a new law

2:44:212:44:24

came into force which states that,

2:44:242:44:26

unless you make it clear to the contrary,

2:44:262:44:28

the assumption is that after death you are happy

2:44:282:44:30

to have your organs donated.

2:44:302:44:33

Jo-Anne Dobson's the UUP Assembly Member who's trying to introduce

2:44:332:44:36

a similar law here.

2:44:362:44:37

Alastair Ross from the DUP isn't convinced that's the path

2:44:372:44:40

we should go down.

2:44:402:44:42

You're both welcome to the programme.

2:44:422:44:44

Jo-Anne Dobson, why do you believe the so-called "soft opt out" system's

2:44:442:44:48

the right road for Northern Ireland?

2:44:482:44:50

Because it's worked so well in other countries across Europe, and Wales,

2:44:502:44:55

as you say, has gone down the route with soft opt out earlier this week.

2:44:552:44:58

Why should Northern Ireland be left behind?

2:44:582:45:01

There's widespread support, as you articulated

2:45:012:45:03

at the start of the presentation, for organ donation

2:45:032:45:06

and can I just pay tribute, Mark, to those charities that have done

2:45:062:45:10

the heavy lifting around organ donation?

2:45:102:45:13

And I know, I've been involved with them for over 20 years.

2:45:132:45:16

But we can't get past the plateau

2:45:162:45:19

in the low 30s on the organ donation register,

2:45:192:45:22

so to bridge that gap, we need to do something to make this happen.

2:45:222:45:26

You're a member of the Health Committee.

2:45:262:45:27

The Health Committee is dealing with this issue,

2:45:272:45:30

looking at your proposed legislation at the moment

2:45:302:45:32

and a number of very senior surgical clinicians

2:45:322:45:35

presented to the committee this week and they urged caution.

2:45:352:45:39

They suggested that we should just steady the horses

2:45:392:45:42

and perhaps look at the Welsh model and then make a decision

2:45:422:45:46

based on the data which currently, in the UK, isn't available.

2:45:462:45:50

Yes, we had a very, very useful presentation on Wednesday,

2:45:502:45:54

but every single year, we lose people.

2:45:542:45:57

The last year... This year, 17 local people died waiting on an organ.

2:45:572:46:01

The year before, it was 15.

2:46:012:46:02

So, for me, a wait-and-see approach,

2:46:022:46:04

meanwhile local people continue to die.

2:46:042:46:07

It was a fantastic presentation from the clinicians

2:46:072:46:10

and I know they had widespread support with, I think,

2:46:102:46:14

one exception for soft opt out.

2:46:142:46:16

Yeah, but here's the danger, Jo-Anne Dobson - I mean,

2:46:162:46:18

nobody doubts for a second what is motivating you to make things better,

2:46:182:46:23

that's not the issue. But I think what some of the clinicians said

2:46:232:46:26

in their presentation was they have a real

2:46:262:46:28

and very genuine fear that, if this is mishandled in any way,

2:46:282:46:33

the situation could be even worse

2:46:332:46:35

and fewer people may donate organs in future

2:46:352:46:38

and that would be the opposite outcome

2:46:382:46:40

of what you are campaigning so hard for.

2:46:402:46:43

Now, if those senior clinicians are saying that, you need to listen.

2:46:432:46:47

But if you'd listened to all of the presentation, Mark,

2:46:472:46:50

they have support for soft opt out.

2:46:502:46:52

Yes, they said it has to be the right legislation,

2:46:522:46:54

the right bill, and I have said from the very, very start,

2:46:542:46:58

and I sat here with you two years ago when I was presenting,

2:46:582:47:01

and Alastair was beside me then, on the bill,

2:47:012:47:03

it has to be the right bill and I'm open to amendments.

2:47:032:47:06

And I'm delighted that, led by Professor John Connolly,

2:47:062:47:09

those clinicians will have their input into this bill

2:47:092:47:12

going forward and I wouldn't have it any other way.

2:47:122:47:14

Alastair Ross, let's just bring you in at this stage.

2:47:142:47:17

What are your reservations?

2:47:172:47:19

As Jo-Anne Dobson says, for some people in Northern Ireland,

2:47:192:47:22

for too many people in Northern Ireland, the clock is ticking

2:47:222:47:26

and they don't have the option to wait.

2:47:262:47:28

Why would you want to do anything that might slow down a process

2:47:282:47:31

-that could save lives?

-I don't want to and I think it's unfortunate

2:47:312:47:34

sometimes that those of us who are opposed to presumed consent

2:47:342:47:37

have the inferences that we're not as interested in saving lives.

2:47:372:47:40

That's unfortunate that that has come into the debate.

2:47:402:47:42

I think we have to listen to the clinicians.

2:47:422:47:44

The clinicians have all urged, unanimously urged,

2:47:442:47:47

caution on moving towards a presumed consent model.

2:47:472:47:49

I listened to the presentation of the Health Committee,

2:47:492:47:52

I've read the letter that was sent to the minister

2:47:522:47:54

and why they did that is because the evidence is incredibly sketchy.

2:47:542:47:57

We can look at some countries where an opt out system

2:47:572:47:59

has better rates of organ donation, but you can also look at France

2:47:592:48:03

and Sweden, Brazil, places where they have a much lower rate

2:48:032:48:06

of organ donation but they have the presumed consent model.

2:48:062:48:09

And the two countries with the best rates are USA and Spain,

2:48:092:48:11

both of which have an opt in system, a voluntary system.

2:48:112:48:14

I don't think it's necessary, the clinicians have said

2:48:142:48:16

we've a very good rate here, we're improving all the time.

2:48:162:48:18

I don't think the evidence is there to suggest it would work

2:48:182:48:21

even if we wanted to do it.

2:48:212:48:22

I think the most important thing is around this issue of consent,

2:48:222:48:25

that there's no other area of medicine or law in which

2:48:252:48:28

consent would be presumed.

2:48:282:48:29

We have to get to a point where members of the community

2:48:292:48:32

are able to give their informed expressed consent

2:48:322:48:35

during their life for what happens to them when they die.

2:48:352:48:37

That'll give certainty to families

2:48:372:48:39

who are in very difficult circumstances

2:48:392:48:40

in trauma units, rather than because 108 members in the Assembly

2:48:402:48:44

pass a bill that consent is somehow presumed.

2:48:442:48:46

I don't think that's an ethically sound way of proceeding.

2:48:462:48:48

But, of course, there are all sorts of safety nets

2:48:482:48:51

in the draft legislation at the moment.

2:48:512:48:52

I mean, there would have to be a qualifying person who would

2:48:522:48:56

affirm that the deceased person wouldn't have objected to

2:48:562:48:59

organ donation and that's a key part to this conversation.

2:48:592:49:02

Nobody's suggesting that organs would be harvested

2:49:022:49:04

without the family fully agreeing to that.

2:49:042:49:06

I fully accept that, in practice,

2:49:062:49:08

families will have a veto even if the drafting of the bill doesn't

2:49:082:49:11

quite make that clear in law,

2:49:112:49:12

but what we want to do is make sure that those families in trauma units

2:49:122:49:15

have absolute certainty,

2:49:152:49:16

that's how we get the family consent rate higher.

2:49:162:49:18

And my fear is moving towards an opt out presumed consent model

2:49:182:49:21

means that individuals don't have to make a decision during their lives

2:49:212:49:25

and silence on their preference cannot ever be given

2:49:252:49:28

the same equation as actual consent.

2:49:282:49:31

And, as I've said before,

2:49:312:49:33

there's no other area of medicine or law in which

2:49:332:49:35

silence on an issue will be seen in law as actual consent.

2:49:352:49:38

Well, that's a very interesting point just to bring in the thoughts

2:49:382:49:41

of one consultant, Tim Brown.

2:49:412:49:42

He told the committee that he's got serious reservations

2:49:422:49:45

about assuming someone has given consent

2:49:452:49:47

when, in fact, that consent hasn't been specifically given.

2:49:472:49:50

Let's just take a look at what he had to say.

2:49:502:49:53

I personally do have an objection to soft opt out.

2:49:532:49:56

I think it's...

2:49:562:49:57

I think one of the very overarching tenets of medical ethics

2:49:572:50:01

is the concept of autonomy and I think that opting out...

2:50:012:50:07

I think assuming that somebody has given consent

2:50:072:50:11

when they have not given consent is a violation of autonomy

2:50:112:50:15

and I would have grave concern that that soft opt out

2:50:152:50:19

would be in direct competition with the concept of autonomy.

2:50:192:50:22

That's effectively what Alastair Ross is talking about.

2:50:222:50:25

Now, Tim Brown, as I understand, did go on to say that, if it was proved

2:50:252:50:29

to work, then clearly he would have to look at that again

2:50:292:50:32

and he clearly wants as many people to donate organs

2:50:322:50:35

in those circumstances as possible.

2:50:352:50:37

But what do you say to Tim Brown and to Alastair Ross

2:50:372:50:40

on that issue of assumed, presumed consent?

2:50:402:50:43

It's family consent. The family will have the final say

2:50:432:50:46

and that's always been from the very, very start...

2:50:462:50:49

Why are you shaking your head? That's a fact.

2:50:492:50:51

Because Clause Four is all about deemed consent,

2:50:512:50:53

-which is presumed consent.

-It's a first draft.

2:50:532:50:56

If this was about trying to push up family consent rates - fantastic.

2:50:562:50:59

If it's about public awareness - fantastic.

2:50:592:51:01

If it's about specialist nurses in hospitals,

2:51:012:51:03

which is a big driver of organ donation, fantastic, but it's not.

2:51:032:51:05

Clause Four makes it absolutely crystal clear in law

2:51:052:51:09

that consent would be presumed

2:51:092:51:10

and I don't think that is an ethically sound way

2:51:102:51:12

-to proceed for organ donation.

-Mark, can I come in here?

-Please do.

2:51:122:51:15

That was a first draft.

2:51:152:51:17

I'm an individual backbench MLA bringing forward a very,

2:51:172:51:21

very important piece of legislation

2:51:212:51:22

and I'm open to amendments. I would ask Alastair and others

2:51:222:51:25

to work with me and bring forward those amendments

2:51:252:51:28

and those suggestions. I'm not precious about those amendments

2:51:282:51:31

to make it the right bill and that was reflected

2:51:312:51:34

by those clinicians who presented at the Health Committee.

2:51:342:51:37

Yes, but it's either presumed consent or it isn't presumed consent.

2:51:372:51:40

I mean, you can't amend the key point,

2:51:402:51:43

one of the key points to your draft legislation.

2:51:432:51:46

I mean, if Alastair Ross brought forward an amendment

2:51:462:51:49

that got rid of that Clause Four issue,

2:51:492:51:52

then it wouldn't be Jo-Anne Dobson's proposed legislation.

2:51:522:51:55

But it's the Northern Ireland Assembly,

2:51:552:51:57

I want it to be the legislation for the people of Northern Ireland.

2:51:572:52:00

It's not Jo-Anne Dobson's proposed legislation,

2:52:002:52:02

this is a bill to save lives right here in Northern Ireland. I work...

2:52:022:52:06

Sorry, are you saying you're prepared to negotiate on the issue

2:52:062:52:09

of presumed consent?

2:52:092:52:10

I'm prepared to meet with anyone to bring

2:52:102:52:13

the right bill for Northern Ireland.

2:52:132:52:15

What we have with second stage was the first draft.

2:52:152:52:18

I will meet with anyone.

2:52:182:52:19

And now, Mark, can I just say finally,

2:52:192:52:21

the department are working with me in the last three weeks.

2:52:212:52:24

I asked during the committee

2:52:242:52:26

when we had senior department officials,

2:52:262:52:28

given the commitment of the First and Deputy First Minister in 2013,

2:52:282:52:31

to support soft opt out.

2:52:312:52:33

What have they done to work towards this?

2:52:332:52:36

-And do you know what they have done? Nothing.

-Right.

2:52:362:52:38

Now, in the last three weeks,

2:52:382:52:39

they're working to get the right bill for Northern Ireland.

2:52:392:52:42

I'll come to Alastair Ross in a second,

2:52:422:52:43

but here's a very important point. Your legislation,

2:52:432:52:46

your draft legislation, suggests that it wouldn't in fact

2:52:462:52:48

come on to the statute books until the spring of 2018,

2:52:482:52:51

-even if it was agreed in this mandate.

-Yeah.

2:52:512:52:53

So why not take the time to sit and wait

2:52:532:52:55

and see what happens as far as the Welsh experience is concerned

2:52:552:52:59

and make sure that the legislation here in Northern Ireland

2:52:592:53:02

is bespoke for us?

2:53:022:53:04

Actually wait and see, learn from the Welsh experience and get it right.

2:53:042:53:10

Meanwhile, local people continue to die.

2:53:102:53:12

But that will happen anyway because your legislation won't happen

2:53:122:53:15

-until the spring of 2018.

-But mine will go with the education programme

2:53:152:53:19

and the awareness programme around it as well. I'll...

2:53:192:53:21

But that's already happening.

2:53:212:53:24

Well, Clause One of the bill is a duty to promote that even further.

2:53:242:53:27

The Public Health Agency has had an awareness campaign.

2:53:272:53:29

They've had a fantastic campaign,

2:53:292:53:31

but still only in the mid 30s on the organ donation register.

2:53:312:53:33

For me personally, and for those people that are waiting on an organ,

2:53:332:53:36

a wait-and-see approach...

2:53:362:53:38

I think we owe it to the disserviced.

2:53:382:53:40

Let's get a good news story out of the Assembly,

2:53:402:53:42

let's do legislation that makes things happen.

2:53:422:53:44

But it needs to be right.

2:53:442:53:46

Of course it does and that's why I'm open to suggestions.

2:53:462:53:48

You were nodding when I was putting that point, Alastair Ross,

2:53:482:53:51

to Jo-Anne Dobson that we should wait and see

2:53:512:53:53

what happens in Wales, but here's the reality as far

2:53:532:53:55

as that's concerned and you need to take this on board.

2:53:552:53:57

Wales passed this legislation in 2013,

2:53:572:53:59

it came into effect last week in December 2015.

2:53:592:54:02

It was amended in-between.

2:54:022:54:04

As they realised they'd got little bits not quite right,

2:54:042:54:06

they actually tweaked them. So, we could look at the Welsh experience

2:54:062:54:10

and we could make the commitment in this mandate

2:54:102:54:13

to bring in presumed consent in spring 2018.

2:54:132:54:16

We can actually do both, that's the point.

2:54:162:54:18

-I don't think we need to.

-But we could do.

2:54:182:54:20

There's very limited time left in this Assembly,

2:54:202:54:22

I don't think the Health Committee has been able

2:54:222:54:24

to give this as much scrutiny as they should.

2:54:242:54:26

It's rushed evidence sessions with the Health Committee.

2:54:262:54:29

They've closed the number of people who they're going to invite.

2:54:292:54:31

I don't want to see this rushed through.

2:54:312:54:33

It is a controversial piece of legislation.

2:54:332:54:35

I don't want to see organ donation became a controversial issue

2:54:352:54:38

and for that reason I think we need to listen to the experts

2:54:382:54:40

who are telling us, "Let's be cautious about this,

2:54:402:54:42

"let's look and see what happens in Wales." As you've acknowledged,

2:54:422:54:45

Jo-Anne's bill, even if it was passed tomorrow,

2:54:452:54:48

wouldn't become law until 2018. What is the rush?

2:54:482:54:50

Why not return to this in the new mandate

2:54:502:54:52

once we have some of the evidence there?

2:54:522:54:53

Because the evidence from elsewhere in the world would suggest

2:54:532:54:56

that it isn't going to be the major driver for organ donation.

2:54:562:54:59

OK, if the Welsh model proves to be correct

2:54:592:55:01

and presumed consent works, will you set aside your reservations?

2:55:012:55:04

If that turns out to be demonstrably better for patients

2:55:042:55:07

in Northern Ireland, will you then support it?

2:55:072:55:09

At least in those circumstances it will be evidence-based

2:55:092:55:11

where it's not at the moment.

2:55:112:55:13

No, I still have concerns around presumed consent.

2:55:132:55:15

I think consent is important,

2:55:152:55:17

I don't think that the 108 members of the Assembly

2:55:172:55:19

have the moral right to suggest that everybody in Northern Ireland

2:55:192:55:22

has given their consent when they have not,

2:55:222:55:24

so I want to get to a point where actually we can get people

2:55:242:55:27

to make a decision during their lives. That will help families

2:55:272:55:29

and I think working alongside the public awareness campaign

2:55:292:55:32

that I absolutely support,

2:55:322:55:33

working along the specialist nurses in hospitals

2:55:332:55:35

-which is the key component...

-We need to leave it there.

2:55:352:55:38

-..that's how we push organ donation.

-Stay with us.

2:55:382:55:40

It's very interesting to hear your thoughts.

2:55:402:55:42

Let's hear what Sheila Davidson and Chris Donnelly

2:55:422:55:44

have to say in response.

2:55:442:55:46

What do you make, Sheila, of the notion of presumed consent?

2:55:462:55:51

I think it's absolutely fundamental that we accept that presumed consent

2:55:512:55:55

is the way forward for transplants.

2:55:552:55:58

70% of the population wants this,

2:55:582:56:00

but apathy reigns with most people.

2:56:002:56:03

When you get this into legislation, it becomes something then

2:56:032:56:06

that everybody has to seriously consider.

2:56:062:56:08

And I think the opt out option is far better because then,

2:56:082:56:11

if you really do have a fundamental, moral, ethical

2:56:112:56:15

or any other kind of objection to it, you make that happen.

2:56:152:56:18

But here's the point - let's say one instance is badly handled.

2:56:182:56:22

Some sort of confusion arises

2:56:222:56:24

and a family is very upset in very sensitive

2:56:242:56:27

and very difficult circumstances.

2:56:272:56:29

That could have a hugely detrimental impact on organ donation levels.

2:56:292:56:33

-Is that a risk worth taking?

-Yes, it is.

2:56:332:56:35

That's what opponents of Jo-Anne Dobson's bill say.

2:56:352:56:38

It is absolutely a risk worth taking because those risks are being taken

2:56:382:56:41

day and daily in the health service as we speak.

2:56:412:56:43

I mean, when you have the kinds of exposes we've had

2:56:432:56:47

previously of families feeling that,

2:56:472:56:50

when they had organ retention, which was actually just

2:56:502:56:54

slivers of samples and that sort of thing, became such a huge issue,

2:56:542:56:57

it's always going to happen, but that's not going to save lives

2:56:572:56:59

and I think Jo-Anne's absolutely right to pursue this.

2:56:592:57:02

-Chris, where do you stand on this?

-I think Jo-Anne is to be commended

2:57:022:57:05

for bringing this legislation.

2:57:052:57:06

I understand Alastair's point with the ethical argument,

2:57:062:57:09

but this is about saving lives and I think presumed consent,

2:57:092:57:12

the soft opt out model, is the way to go.

2:57:122:57:15

I do appreciate, if you look at the models of best practice,

2:57:152:57:18

particularly the Spanish system, the opt...

2:57:182:57:20

In terms of increasing the potential donor pool

2:57:202:57:23

on its own isn't normally enough.

2:57:232:57:25

The Spanish system, they have teams of transplant coordinators

2:57:252:57:28

who are very effective at ensuring that opportunities

2:57:282:57:31

for organ donation are not missed,

2:57:312:57:33

they're very good at working with the families

2:57:332:57:35

to ensure that consent is followed through.

2:57:352:57:37

So I think we need to do more than just move on the soft opt out model,

2:57:372:57:40

we need to move on that as well at the same time.

2:57:402:57:43

OK. Thanks, we'll hear more from both of you again very shortly

2:57:432:57:47

and thanks to the politicians.

2:57:472:57:48

We'll keep a very close eye on that over the next few weeks.

2:57:482:57:52

Let's just pause at this stage though and take a look back

2:57:522:57:54

at the political week in 60 seconds with Gareth Gordon.

2:57:542:57:57

A judge rules abortion laws here are in breach of human rights

2:58:022:58:06

and new draft guidelines are issued, but confusion remains.

2:58:062:58:10

In the face of the court decision,

2:58:102:58:12

we've now got a conflicting issue of guidance which seems to me

2:58:122:58:15

to have been out-of-date four or five hours before it was circulated.

2:58:152:58:19

Parliament votes to back airstrikes in Syria,

2:58:192:58:22

but differing views from local MPs.

2:58:222:58:24

We need to protect people, our own citizens now

2:58:242:58:27

when there is a real and present danger to them.

2:58:272:58:29

There is a severe risk of feeding what we are trying to fight.

2:58:292:58:34

The veteran SDLP MLA Pat Ramsey announces he's quitting politics

2:58:342:58:39

and a former finance minister

2:58:392:58:41

shows what he thinks of Stormont's Nama Inquiry.

2:58:412:58:43

Had I not made the promise, I doubt very much if I would've come along

2:58:432:58:48

to grace the kind of Mickey Mouse exercise which has been undertaken.

2:58:482:58:53

And things get a little hot under the collar

2:58:532:58:55

across the Assembly benches.

2:58:552:58:57

I'm not sure, though, how she felt my passion,

2:58:572:59:00

I hope it was as good for her as it was for me.

2:59:002:59:02

The king of the risque aside,

2:59:092:59:11

Mark H Durkan ending that look back at the week from Gareth Gordon.

2:59:112:59:15

Now, ministers took to the waters of Belfast Lough this week to support

2:59:152:59:18

the latest government-backed tourism project - the multimillion pound

2:59:182:59:22

restoration of HMS Caroline.

2:59:222:59:23

When the ship opens its door to the public

2:59:232:59:25

as a floating museum in six months, it'll be hoping to cash in

2:59:252:59:28

on the success of the Titanic Belfast building,

2:59:282:59:31

but some projects are finding that more difficult

2:59:312:59:33

than you might think.

2:59:332:59:35

We sent Kevin Magee down to the Lagan to investigate.

2:59:352:59:38

Titanic Belfast is a monument to our maritime past

2:59:422:59:46

and the flagship tourism project of the future.

2:59:462:59:49

Last year, 700,000 visitors passed through its doors.

2:59:492:59:53

Tourism is one of the Executive's key target areas for economic growth

2:59:532:59:58

and this building symbolises what it's trying to achieve.

2:59:583:00:02

Its visitor numbers are up,

3:00:023:00:04

but are the benefits being spread across the entire economy?

3:00:043:00:08

Ministers hoist the flag for the Executive

3:00:103:00:12

to mark the six-month countdown to the opening of the HMS Caroline,

3:00:123:00:17

the latest visitor attraction in Titanic Quarter.

3:00:173:00:20

Once completed, the First World War ship will be hoping to cash in on

3:00:203:00:24

the numbers visiting its much larger neighbour, the Titanic building.

3:00:243:00:29

The planning for the operational phase forward,

3:00:293:00:31

clearly we will be having a number of discussions

3:00:313:00:35

with Titanic Belfast on how we can mutually work together.

3:00:353:00:40

The Enterprise Minister Jonathan Bell

3:00:403:00:42

says the Executive's tourism strategy is working.

3:00:423:00:45

Titanic Belfast is a tremendous success,

3:00:453:00:48

hitting well over 90% of its targets,

3:00:483:00:50

bringing in 2.5 million people to this country,

3:00:503:00:53

bringing in the spending power of 2.5 million people.

3:00:533:00:56

I actually believe a rising tide lifts all boats.

3:00:563:01:00

But it hasn't lifted this one - a tour operator on the Lagan

3:01:003:01:04

believes Titanic Belfast is hoovering up all the tourist spend

3:01:043:01:08

along the river.

3:01:083:01:09

Since it opened in 2012, his public tour business has nosedived.

3:01:093:01:14

Since Titanic Belfast has opened, things have changed radically.

3:01:143:01:17

Not just for me, for a lot of small businesses, tour businesses

3:01:173:01:20

and stuff around the harbour particularly.

3:01:203:01:23

We're fighting against a multimillion pound business there

3:01:233:01:27

that was funded by the taxpayer and charities or whatever,

3:01:273:01:31

European Union, I don't know all their financials,

3:01:313:01:34

but, you know, it's a big marketing budget we're fighting against

3:01:343:01:37

and our business went down about 80% the day it opened.

3:01:373:01:39

Never really recovered.

3:01:393:01:41

It's not just the river tours that haven't shared in

3:01:423:01:45

the large number of tourists going to Titanic Belfast.

3:01:453:01:49

The Thompson Dock Pump-house and Cafe haven't experienced

3:01:493:01:53

much of a lift and, further up the river,

3:01:533:01:55

the Belfast Barge Museum, like the river tours,

3:01:553:01:59

has actually recorded a fall off in visitor numbers

3:01:593:02:02

since 2012 when the Titanic centre opened.

3:02:023:02:06

It's had to cut staff after its visitor numbers fell.

3:02:063:02:09

It was down quite dramatically,

3:02:093:02:11

I would say there was about a 50% drop.

3:02:113:02:13

Now, we've recovered some of that.

3:02:133:02:16

You would hope, especially with the amount of international people

3:02:163:02:19

that it would've brought in, that they wouldn't just see

3:02:193:02:22

the one place, they would go to them all.

3:02:223:02:25

Unfortunately, that's not what we've experienced.

3:02:253:02:27

I would say that the barge museum has actually been more supported

3:02:273:02:32

by local people that have been really invested in the story

3:02:323:02:35

and we haven't seen the positive effects

3:02:353:02:38

of, you know, increased visitor numbers internationally.

3:02:383:02:42

This charity cafe in the shadow of the Titanic building

3:02:423:02:45

is run by a church minister.

3:02:453:02:47

He's also behind the tram that aims to move visitors

3:02:473:02:50

from Titanic Belfast to other nearby attractions,

3:02:503:02:54

spreading the tourist pound.

3:02:543:02:56

The tram has only just started,

3:02:563:02:58

we've just had our first season of operation.

3:02:583:03:00

It started fairly small, yes.

3:03:003:03:02

So, we've had a couple of thousand people on in the first year

3:03:023:03:05

and that's really exciting.

3:03:053:03:06

Is the overspill happening to the degree that you would've hoped?

3:03:063:03:10

Er, I think I'll say not yet,

3:03:103:03:12

but I don't see that as the end of the story,

3:03:123:03:14

I just see it... We're on the first chapter

3:03:143:03:17

and there's so much work still to be done,

3:03:173:03:19

so many opportunities still to be explored, so I think it'll be

3:03:193:03:22

very exciting to see where it goes next year and in the years to come.

3:03:223:03:26

The Titanic building cost £77 million to construct.

3:03:263:03:30

Most of the funding, 60 million, came from the public purse.

3:03:303:03:33

So, should it be doing more to encourage its visitors

3:03:333:03:36

to visit other tourist-related businesses?

3:03:363:03:39

It says it already is.

3:03:393:03:42

If you look at the statistics

3:03:423:03:43

and the £120 million that we've generated in the local economy

3:03:433:03:47

in the first three years,

3:03:473:03:48

if you look at the occupancy rate of the hotels, which is now at 80%,

3:03:483:03:52

if you look at the cruise ships which has grown from 10

3:03:523:03:54

through to 75 next year, if you look at the coach operators,

3:03:543:03:58

we've got 120,000 coach operator visitors coming this year...

3:03:583:04:02

There is a trickle-down effect already.

3:04:023:04:04

You do have to be competitive

3:04:043:04:05

and you have to fight for your place in the market.

3:04:053:04:08

When Titanic Belfast took over the SS Nomadic,

3:04:083:04:11

its visitor numbers trebled.

3:04:113:04:14

But for private tour operator Derek Booker, that hasn't happened.

3:04:143:04:18

His main concern remains that his public tour business

3:04:183:04:21

won't suffer the same fate as the tragic liner herself.

3:04:213:04:25

Kevin Magee reporting on the challenges of surviving

3:04:273:04:29

in the shadow of Titanic Belfast.

3:04:293:04:31

Let's have a final word with Sheila and Chris.

3:04:313:04:33

Sheila, there's the juxtaposition, a big project built

3:04:333:04:37

with public money and a huge marketing budget, and the little guy.

3:04:373:04:40

Yes. I mean, I remember, my very first experience of Titanic anything

3:04:403:04:43

was on the boat tour and it was wonderful,

3:04:433:04:46

but the problem is the investment has not been there

3:04:463:04:49

and even though they are private sector businesses,

3:04:493:04:51

they should have had some more marketing support,

3:04:513:04:53

even capital support, to be able to deliver a product that is good,

3:04:533:04:56

because the Titanic signature building is plonked in the middle

3:04:563:05:00

of the Titanic area, but there's very little connectivity.

3:05:003:05:03

And I think that a little bit more joined-up thinking could actually

3:05:033:05:06

help those businesses and trickle down from the signature building.

3:05:063:05:09

Chris, I wanted to ask you about something separate

3:05:093:05:11

which is quite interesting. Sinn Fein's been under a lot of pressure,

3:05:113:05:14

we know, for signing up to the Fresh Start deal.

3:05:143:05:16

Now the party seems to have got support

3:05:163:05:19

from, let's say, an unlikely quarter.

3:05:193:05:21

Yes, I thought it was interesting during the week,

3:05:213:05:23

the Northern Ireland committee of the ICTU,

3:05:233:05:25

an umbrella trade union organisation,

3:05:253:05:28

released a statement which was quite stridently different in tone

3:05:283:05:32

from their position after the Stormont House Agreement

3:05:323:05:34

just 11 months ago in January, when they came out

3:05:343:05:37

and called the Stormont House Agreement a bad deal.

3:05:373:05:39

They took out newspaper advertisements very critical

3:05:393:05:42

of the deal at the time and that was unprecedented

3:05:423:05:45

at the time, that they would come out against,

3:05:453:05:47

the first time the unions had come out against a deal

3:05:473:05:49

between the representatives of the two different communities.

3:05:493:05:52

And we know that, at that time,

3:05:523:05:54

the DUP were very stung by that statement by Peter Robinson -

3:05:543:05:57

Sammy Wilson condemned that.

3:05:573:05:59

Sinn Fein, within two months however, moved away

3:05:593:06:01

from the Stormont House Agreement

3:06:013:06:03

and, in a sense, that suggested that the unions had formed

3:06:033:06:06

a connection with Sinn Fein, they'd influenced them.

3:06:063:06:08

Now, at this moment when Sinn Fein are quite vulnerable

3:06:083:06:10

because of the Fresh Start deal,

3:06:103:06:12

the unions have come out with a line which kind of reflects

3:06:123:06:17

-the Sinn Fein position about this being a better deal over...

-OK.

3:06:173:06:20

..direct rule would be unimaginable consequences,

3:06:203:06:23

that's quite interesting.

3:06:233:06:24

Need to leave it there, thanks both very much indeed.

3:06:243:06:27

That's it from Sunday Politics for this week.

3:06:273:06:29

Join me for Stormont Today, that's on BBC Two at 11:20 on Monday night.

3:06:293:06:32

But, for now, from everyone in the team, thanks for watching.

3:06:323:06:35

Bye-bye.

3:06:353:06:36

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS