29/11/2015 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


29/11/2015

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Liam Fox and George Galloway discuss air strikes, and Lord Falconer talks about Labour.


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The Government continues its push for the UK to join air-strikes

:00:36.:00:41.

Is it winning the argument and does it have the votes in Parliament?

:00:42.:00:48.

We'll hear from former Tory defence secretary Liam Fox, and Respect

:00:49.:00:52.

Jeremy Corbyn is struggling to get his way over Syria, as he tries to

:00:53.:00:59.

persuade his Shadow Cabinet to back his opposition to bombing.

:01:00.:01:01.

We'll hear from Shadow Justice Secretary, Charlie Falconer.

:01:02.:01:05.

And the former Conservative chairman Grant Shapps resigns

:01:06.:01:07.

from the Government over allegations he failed to act on bullying claims

:01:08.:01:12.

In London, the Chancellor spared the really the end of the story?

:01:13.:01:25.

In London, the Chancellor spared the Metropolitan Police but his spending

:01:26.:01:27.

In London, the Chancellor spared the decisions will have consequences for

:01:28.:01:28.

transport, housing and councils. So, yesterday,

:01:29.:01:38.

former Conservative Party chairman Grant Shapps resigned from

:01:39.:01:39.

the Government over allegations he failed to act on claims of bullying

:01:40.:01:43.

in the youth wing of the party. It's a complicated story,

:01:44.:01:47.

as Giles Dilnot explains. Grant Shapps, former co-chair

:01:48.:01:50.

of the Conservative Party and now a former minister, must wish

:01:51.:01:56.

as his senior aide Paul Abbot Clarke once tipped for the top

:01:57.:02:02.

by Tatler magazine unsuccessfully As a result of his behaviour

:02:03.:02:21.

during that campaign, about which complaints were made, he

:02:22.:02:25.

was taken off the candidates list. A girlfriend at the time declaring

:02:26.:02:28.

he was "unfit to be an MP". In early 2014,

:02:29.:02:35.

Mr Clarke approached the Conservatives and Grant Shapps

:02:36.:02:37.

in particular with an idea. It was simple, bus loads of young

:02:38.:02:39.

Tory activists to marginal seats during the 2015 general election

:02:40.:02:46.

campaign to doorstep constituents. In the face of of unshifting polls,

:02:47.:02:48.

the idea appealed to Conservative Central Headquarters but they

:02:49.:02:55.

wanted to have some control over it. Grant Shapps decided not only to

:02:56.:02:59.

back the idea, but help pay for it, and put Clarke in charge

:03:00.:03:02.

of the operation. never met are you going to be a part

:03:03.:03:07.

of this? -- are you going to be? Roadtrip 2015,

:03:08.:03:17.

as the plan was called, had another motive for Clarke, to see him back

:03:18.:03:19.

on the Conservative candidate list and perhaps he would have and this

:03:20.:03:22.

story ended if not for the apparent suicide in mid-September

:03:23.:03:25.

of a young activist called Elliot Johnson, who left a note, naming

:03:26.:03:27.

Mark Clarke as someone who'd been bullying him and a secret recording

:03:28.:03:30.

of Clarke challenging him in a pub. In the wake of Elliot Johnson's

:03:31.:03:33.

death, lurid allegations emerged about Clarke, alleging sexual

:03:34.:03:36.

misconduct, drugs, intimidation, blackmail and bullying connected to

:03:37.:03:37.

Roadtrip, all denied by Mark Clarke. But August e-mail exchanges

:03:38.:03:48.

between Mr Clarke and Mr Shapps' aide Paul Abbot show Mr Abbott was

:03:49.:03:51.

aware of complaints Nothing was done and since Mr Shapps

:03:52.:03:53.

gave Clarke an official Party role he has now resigned saying

:03:54.:04:01.

"the buck stops with me". The Prime Minister says a full

:04:02.:04:03.

internal investigation is under way. Elliot Johnson's father wants an

:04:04.:04:08.

independent external investigation. The most serious allegations

:04:09.:04:13.

about Clarke were made after Grant Shapps had been moved to

:04:14.:04:15.

a junior ministerial position and Lord Feldman, David Cameron's

:04:16.:04:21.

chief fundraiser and close friend, He says the party cannot find

:04:22.:04:24.

nor was aware of any written If, by falling on his sword,

:04:25.:04:30.

Mr Shapps hoped to stop the scandal spreading,

:04:31.:04:36.

he may actually only have become The Sunday Politics panel is here.

:04:37.:04:55.

Nick, here is the case for Shapps. He has been made a scapegoat. This

:04:56.:05:01.

is not the end of the story. I think it is not the end of the story.

:05:02.:05:06.

Grant Shapps did sign up Mark Clark to do this. I think it is getting

:05:07.:05:10.

awfully close to the door of Andrew Feldman. They went -- he went to

:05:11.:05:20.

college with the Prime Minister and organised some balls. They go back a

:05:21.:05:26.

long way. The road trip was run out of Conservative campaign

:05:27.:05:28.

headquarters in the run-up to the general election. Most significantly

:05:29.:05:32.

for Andrew Feldman, he signed the checks to allow the road trip to

:05:33.:05:38.

take place. We're not talking small cheques, we are talking many

:05:39.:05:41.

hundreds of thousands of pounds. Grant Shapps was in charge of it on

:05:42.:05:47.

a day-to-day basis but Andrew Feldman and his sister helped the

:05:48.:05:59.

running of the road trip. What it does is put the attention onto some

:06:00.:06:02.

of the attention onto summary the attention would be, what did Andrew

:06:03.:06:07.

Feldman do? What did he know and when and what did he do? What we

:06:08.:06:14.

have to remember is Baroness Warsi, who was co-chairman, kicked this guy

:06:15.:06:20.

out of the party. Feldman was Chairman Ben and Shapps brought him

:06:21.:06:25.

back. Feldman was co-chairman and Feldman is still the chairman now.

:06:26.:06:28.

In terms of the party, what some people were saying to me yesterday,

:06:29.:06:33.

actually, it cannot be seen that Cameron is protecting Lord Fellman

:06:34.:06:42.

-- Feldman because he is his friend. He has got questions to answer. I

:06:43.:06:47.

also think that if people who are in the party feel these questions are

:06:48.:06:52.

not being answered, and it is not an open process, loads more leaks will

:06:53.:06:57.

come out and it will get messier and messier and messier. It is a rum do,

:06:58.:07:04.

what was going on inside the Tory Party in its youth wing. Multiple

:07:05.:07:10.

allegations of bullying and sexual harassment. Culminating in this

:07:11.:07:13.

young man taking his life on a railway line. It is an appalling

:07:14.:07:20.

thing. There is a history of unusual behaviour amongst Conservative

:07:21.:07:23.

students going back to the 1980s when Norman Tebbit closed down the

:07:24.:07:26.

Confederation of Conservative students. It is the most extreme

:07:27.:07:35.

incident I have ever encountered. This is about personal behaviour.

:07:36.:07:40.

The parents of Elliott Johnson raised an important question of

:07:41.:07:44.

chronology. Grant Shapps stop being co-chairman in May. Some of the

:07:45.:07:48.

allegations against Mark Clark, some of the complaints surfaced as

:07:49.:07:58.

recently as August. There is a deeper structural problem, which is

:07:59.:08:02.

the Conservative Party does not have activists. They have to find them

:08:03.:08:08.

where they can get them. Or, when summary has a reputation as bad as

:08:09.:08:12.

Mark Clark, they end up going along with them because options are so

:08:13.:08:17.

limited. It will not be the end of the story.

:08:18.:08:19.

David Cameron is expected to ask MPs to approve UK air strikes

:08:20.:08:22.

The Government thinks it now has enough support to risk a vote

:08:23.:08:26.

in the Commons, even though the Labour Party is still unclear.

:08:27.:08:29.

And the PM will almost certainly need Labour votes to get his way.

:08:30.:08:32.

Mr Corbyn is still trying to rally his Shadow Cabinet and Labour MPs

:08:33.:08:35.

He told Andrew Marr they should recognise his direct mandate

:08:36.:08:38.

And so what I've done is what I said I would always do,

:08:39.:08:42.

I would try to democratise the way the party does things.

:08:43.:08:45.

Yes, I have sent an e-mail to party members, and actually,

:08:46.:08:47.

70,000 have already replied with their views.

:08:48.:08:50.

I don't know what all the views are, obviously, I haven't read them all,

:08:51.:08:54.

Surely we must recognise that in a democracy, the Labour Party has

:08:55.:09:02.

a very large membership, nearly 400,000 members, they have a right

:09:03.:09:05.

to express their point of view and MPs have to listen to it and have to

:09:06.:09:09.

try and understand what's going on in the minds

:09:10.:09:11.

I've been joined by Charlie Falconer, Jeremy Corbyn's

:09:12.:09:22.

Are you minded to support government on the subject of Syrian air

:09:23.:09:34.

strikes? I am. Then need to be assurances, given to the House of

:09:35.:09:38.

Commons but I am minded to support air strikes. The reason I am, I

:09:39.:09:44.

think Isil poses a threat to the region and also Europe, including

:09:45.:09:48.

the United Kingdom. I believe air strikes over Iraq and Syria are

:09:49.:09:53.

having an effect on reducing that risk. I think it is wrong that we

:09:54.:09:58.

are participating in Syria when what is going on is we are trying to

:09:59.:10:02.

defend the United Kingdom. I believe the only long-term solution is there

:10:03.:10:06.

needs to be a solution to the Syrian civil war and the bombing of cracker

:10:07.:10:11.

will not significantly contribute to that. -- Raqqa. I believe we do not

:10:12.:10:22.

have a choice. The likelihood is that the Shadow Cabinet will agree a

:10:23.:10:28.

collective position in this matter. There are honourably held collective

:10:29.:10:32.

views. The Shadow Cabinet on Thursday, they were appropriately

:10:33.:10:38.

discussing. Everybody was conscious of the fact we have to reach a

:10:39.:10:42.

conclusion in national interests. With an issue like this where there

:10:43.:10:47.

is agreement on the factual material, international law, the

:10:48.:10:56.

final judgment, there is such a difficult decision to be made, it is

:10:57.:11:00.

not surprising that our disagreements in the Shadow Cabinet.

:11:01.:11:03.

It is unlikely that tomorrow you will be able to agree a collective

:11:04.:11:08.

line. I think that is right. It is unlikely we'll be able to agree a

:11:09.:11:16.

yes or no answer to the question the Government is about to post. If it

:11:17.:11:22.

does not and there is a free vote for this among Labour MPs, it does

:11:23.:11:31.

make it certain that Mr Cameron will win by a convincing majority. I do

:11:32.:11:37.

not know the position. I think everyone is weighing up the merits

:11:38.:11:42.

of the argument. The right thing to do is for mothers of the

:11:43.:11:44.

Parliamentary Labour Party members of the Shadow Cabinet to consider

:11:45.:11:47.

all the arguments and reach a conclusion as to what they think is

:11:48.:11:53.

in the national interest. It is clear that enough Labour MPs will

:11:54.:11:57.

abstain or side with the Government to give Mr Cameron a majority, even

:11:58.:12:03.

if that are some Tory defectors. If the position where it was whipped

:12:04.:12:07.

against by the Labour Party, that with very significantly reduce the

:12:08.:12:11.

chances if it were a free vote. I do not know what the final figures

:12:12.:12:16.

would be. Your figures sound right. Should there be a free vote? What is

:12:17.:12:20.

the alternative given the position you are into a free vote? My own

:12:21.:12:25.

view is I do not think this very important issue should be allowed to

:12:26.:12:31.

be a situation that forces resignations on people. I think the

:12:32.:12:35.

right course is, if the Shadow Cabinet cannot come to a collective

:12:36.:12:39.

view, and I accept that maybe unlikely, probably the best course

:12:40.:12:44.

is a free vote. That is ultimately for the leadership to decide. For an

:12:45.:12:49.

opposition which aspires to government when you're not a

:12:50.:12:52.

debating society. You are the opposition, the alternative

:12:53.:12:57.

government. What would voters think if you cannot agree a collective

:12:58.:13:01.

position on something as important as war? What the Government be

:13:02.:13:13.

seeing is a legitimate debate. The public is like the Parliamentary

:13:14.:13:15.

Labour Party and like the saddo Cabinet, of different views. You

:13:16.:13:19.

need to come to a collective view. We need to know your view on this.

:13:20.:13:25.

The differences with this is I do not think it will be possible. I do

:13:26.:13:30.

not think that is surprising. That reflects the debate that is going on

:13:31.:13:33.

in the country. The debate going on in the country is going on within

:13:34.:13:39.

the Labour Party. If Mr Corbyn was to attempt, and he said this morning

:13:40.:13:44.

it is his decision to whip or not. If there were a decision to whip

:13:45.:13:48.

Labour members to vote against bombing, would that be a resignation

:13:49.:13:54.

matter for you? I do not want to comment on that. I very much hope

:13:55.:13:59.

any sort of resignations will be avoided. I think the position will

:14:00.:14:03.

be we will have a further discussion on Monday and a collective you will

:14:04.:14:06.

be reached as to how we go forward in relation to the progress. One

:14:07.:14:12.

Labour MP told us that Mr Corbyn's and of this vote seems to him like a

:14:13.:14:16.

deliberate search for a fight and he is very disappointed. I do not

:14:17.:14:22.

agree. The key thing about what is happening now is not who sent a

:14:23.:14:26.

letter when. The key thing which the public want us to debate is the

:14:27.:14:31.

question itself. Should we support air strikes or not? I think the

:14:32.:14:35.

important thing about this week will not be who said what to whom but

:14:36.:14:40.

will be where you stood on the issue. It is one of those issues

:14:41.:14:45.

where the judgment about what was right and what was wrong will not

:14:46.:14:50.

come on the basis of the politics of these few days. It will come on what

:14:51.:14:56.

happens going forward. What was the right decision? Let me ask you this.

:14:57.:15:02.

We do not have much time. Because you are a lawyer and an expert on

:15:03.:15:08.

the Labour Party, if Labour MPs sought to unseat Mr Corbyn, and

:15:09.:15:12.

there is some wild talk around on that, witty automatically be on the

:15:13.:15:18.

ballot paper of a new leadership election? I have not addressed that.

:15:19.:15:23.

It is not a moment to talk about any sort of leadership challenge. Jeremy

:15:24.:15:27.

Corbyn is leader. He was elected two months ago with a huge mandate. That

:15:28.:15:32.

is the position within the Labour Party and that is where we have to

:15:33.:15:36.

address it. It can hardly be a stable position to have a Labour

:15:37.:15:40.

leader, in such a key issue has bombing in Syria, at odds with a

:15:41.:15:45.

huge chunk of his Shadow Cabinet rest room at that position is

:15:46.:15:51.

unsustainable over the period. It was absolutely clear when Jeremy was

:15:52.:15:55.

elected, there were significant disagreements between Jeremy and

:15:56.:15:58.

others on policy. What is happening is the Labour Party is holding

:15:59.:16:00.

together. So far. So, once again a British government

:16:01.:16:07.

is gearing up extend military action It's a well-trod road

:16:08.:16:12.

and the outcome has not always been predictable, or pleasant,

:16:13.:16:17.

which is why so many are hesitant. Ellie Price has been looking

:16:18.:16:19.

at the Prime Minister's case for action, and what role the UK

:16:20.:16:22.

military might play. That bomb in Paris,

:16:23.:16:24.

that could have been London. If they had their way,

:16:25.:16:31.

it would be London. I can't stand here

:16:32.:16:33.

and say we're safe I can't stand here either

:16:34.:16:35.

and say we will remove the threat from the action we take, but do I

:16:36.:16:39.

stand here with advice behind me that taking action will degrade

:16:40.:16:43.

and reduce that threat over time? Absolutely,

:16:44.:16:45.

and I've examined my conscience David Cameron says he no longer

:16:46.:16:47.

wants to outsource this sort Britain is currently involved in air

:16:48.:16:54.

strikes against so-called Islamic State, but only in Iraq, shown here

:16:55.:16:59.

in the bottom half of this shot. The border, for British forces

:17:00.:17:04.

at least, is crucial. IS, Isis, Daesh - whatever you want

:17:05.:17:09.

to call it - control or is free to operate in swathes of territory

:17:10.:17:14.

in Iraq and Syria. Its so-called caliphate stretches

:17:15.:17:19.

from Aleppo in Syria to The lines on the map are relatively

:17:20.:17:21.

fluid, it recently lost control That was down to Kurdish forces with

:17:22.:17:28.

the help of US-led air strikes. Currently Australia,

:17:29.:17:35.

Canada and France are also flying bombing missions over both

:17:36.:17:37.

countries, targeting IS. According to the latest figures

:17:38.:17:43.

released on Friday, the US and its allies operating

:17:44.:17:46.

under the banner of Operation Inherent Resolve have conducted more

:17:47.:17:49.

than 8,500 air strikes against Islamic State targets since the

:17:50.:17:53.

start of the campaign last year. That's 5,580 air strikes in Iraq

:17:54.:17:59.

and 2,925 in Syria. More than 16,000 targets have been

:18:00.:18:05.

damaged or destroyed, including more than 4,500 buildings,

:18:06.:18:08.

nearly 5,000 fighting positions, and The vast majority have come from US

:18:09.:18:14.

aircraft, but the RAF has run 376 They've been launched

:18:15.:18:21.

from this base in Cyprus, where The base has also been used to

:18:22.:18:28.

carry out refuelling and The perception out there is

:18:29.:18:34.

the question as to whether or not the UK should be involved

:18:35.:18:40.

in the campaign in Syria or not. The reality is we are involved in

:18:41.:18:43.

that campaign but in an inconsistent Other countries, our allies,

:18:44.:18:47.

the Americans and French in particular, just don't quite

:18:48.:19:02.

understand where we are up to. The PM insists

:19:03.:19:05.

the RAF can provide specific skills that coalition partners are keen to

:19:06.:19:07.

make the most of. The ability to launch highly

:19:08.:19:09.

accurate Brimstone missiles. We are very good

:19:10.:19:11.

at not killing people collaterally, the UK, so in that sense I think us

:19:12.:19:14.

moving into Syria is good. The sad thing is that no matter how

:19:15.:19:17.

good you are, there will be innocent people killed but they are dying

:19:18.:19:21.

anyway because of Isil, and it's coming to the stage where you have

:19:22.:19:26.

to move forward and do things, even though that sort of thing happens,

:19:27.:19:29.

that cannot be Of course Russia is also involved

:19:30.:19:31.

in air strikes in Syria, but its support of President Assad's

:19:32.:19:36.

regime puts it at odds with The scale of these tensions

:19:37.:19:39.

demonstrated when Turkey, which vehemently opposes Assad, shot

:19:40.:19:46.

down a Russian plane last week. Most experts agree that air strikes

:19:47.:19:52.

alone will not destroy the common enemy of IS, that ground forces will

:19:53.:19:55.

be needed, but agreeing on exactly who those forces would be, could

:19:56.:20:00.

prove the biggest obstacle to peace. We are joined now by George

:20:01.:20:26.

Galloway. What should be done to thwart Islamic State, if not British

:20:27.:20:30.

bombing, what should be done to hit it in its heartland? Most of these

:20:31.:20:34.

terrorist attacks were carried out by people living in the countries in

:20:35.:20:39.

which they operated, Tunisia, France, Belgium and so on so you

:20:40.:20:45.

will not physically stop people bombing Raqqa turning up on the

:20:46.:20:52.

streets of Paris. But the planning involved Islamic State. There's not

:20:53.:20:59.

much logistics involved in taking arms into a nightclub and killing

:21:00.:21:05.

innocent people. There are many weapons in Europe, nobody is

:21:06.:21:09.

suggesting these weapons came from Syria. I don't want to dodge your

:21:10.:21:14.

question, I must strongly in favour of destroying Isis and Al-Qaeda as

:21:15.:21:19.

anybody else, more than the David Cameron government or they wouldn't

:21:20.:21:23.

be tolerating a situation where Turkey and Saudi Arabia have been

:21:24.:21:27.

supporting these people for years and until now are supporting them.

:21:28.:21:34.

We are steeped in blog so far but it is bloodier to go on, I promise you.

:21:35.:21:40.

What would you do? I would support the people fighting Isis and

:21:41.:21:50.

Al-Qaeda on the ground. The wide PG militia -- YPG militia. Give them

:21:51.:22:01.

weapons, every kind of support we can. It is a far better way than us

:22:02.:22:10.

joining in. Do you support Russian attacks on the anti-Assad forces in

:22:11.:22:19.

Syria? Yes, if they are coordinated with the Syrian government's army.

:22:20.:22:28.

So do you support British attacks on Islamic State forces in Iraq at

:22:29.:22:31.

their request of the Iraq government? I do, and if they were

:22:32.:22:37.

coordinated with the Government that make sense militarily, and if we

:22:38.:22:43.

coordinated our involvement with Russia and the Syrian government in

:22:44.:22:47.

Syria, I would support that too but it's because I'm pretty sure the

:22:48.:22:51.

British government's real game is regime change and because we have

:22:52.:22:56.

seen regime change before in Iraq and Libya and they ended so

:22:57.:23:00.

disastrously, I am against it. It's not because I'm a pacifist. There

:23:01.:23:07.

was a time when David Cameron's priority was to get rid of a sad's

:23:08.:23:14.

regime but isn't it clear that David Cameron has realised that defeating

:23:15.:23:19.

Islamic State is more important to Britain's national interest than

:23:20.:23:23.

getting rid of Mr Assad? If it were you probably wouldn't have me on

:23:24.:23:27.

because I would be supporting it, but I don't believe that. I pray his

:23:28.:23:32.

utterly farcical claim in the House this week that there were 70,000

:23:33.:23:37.

moderate rebels armed and ready to take over the land liberated by our

:23:38.:23:44.

bombardment. You say that is fantasy? If there were 700 I would

:23:45.:23:50.

be surprised. We will bomb territory which will then be taken by other

:23:51.:23:54.

so-called moderate fanatics, the ones as I said to you before that

:23:55.:24:03.

only cut off half your head. Should we regard the Russians and the Assad

:24:04.:24:07.

regime as our allies in the fight against Islamic State? We had that

:24:08.:24:17.

chance and that was incinerated by our ally on his attack on the

:24:18.:24:22.

Russian air force bombing these people, shot out of the sky

:24:23.:24:26.

provoking a crisis between east and west, between Nato and Russia, which

:24:27.:24:31.

was completely unnecessary and completely contrary to any

:24:32.:24:37.

legitimate war aims. Could it not still be put together? I wish it

:24:38.:24:45.

would, I suspect it won't. If we had time to discuss it I would operate

:24:46.:24:49.

this point. Turkey is the source of this problem, the Turkish border has

:24:50.:24:56.

been open to these people. They have been selling billions of dollars

:24:57.:25:01.

worth of oil. A lot of it is being stolen by Isil and sold in Turkey, I

:25:02.:25:08.

believe to relatives of President Erdogan, which is then sold onwards

:25:09.:25:13.

to neighbouring countries. You cannot be serious about fighting

:25:14.:25:18.

Isil while you're Nato ally is openly collaborating with them. You

:25:19.:25:23.

follow closely what is going on in the Labour Party at the moment, does

:25:24.:25:28.

Jeremy Corbyn have an alternative to a free vote when this comes up for a

:25:29.:25:34.

vote in the Commons? If I were him, I would whip the vote because his

:25:35.:25:51.

enemies in the ... Because our record on intervention is so bad,

:25:52.:25:55.

because the likelihood of it not going well is so high, I would dare

:25:56.:26:01.

these rebels to facilitate David Cameron's court. Is that the

:26:02.:26:09.

intention? It looks to me as if it is ripping itself apart. This is

:26:10.:26:14.

Ramsay MacDonald in reverse, the leader remaining loyal to the party

:26:15.:26:18.

and the MPs joining effectively and national government in terms of War

:26:19.:26:22.

and peace at least so if I were Jeremy Corbyn, I would whip this

:26:23.:26:28.

vote and let the Labour members pass verdict on those that troop into the

:26:29.:26:32.

lobby with Liam Fox and David Cameron because I am pretty sure

:26:33.:26:37.

this is not going to end well. Even at the expense of ripping apart the

:26:38.:26:43.

Shadow Cabinet too? You would be whipping the Shadow Cabinet where

:26:44.:26:49.

there seems to be a majority against Jeremy Corbyn's position. Some of

:26:50.:26:52.

them might surprise you with their fidelity to the party in those

:26:53.:26:57.

circumstances, others might go. They are supporting the elected leader in

:26:58.:27:02.

the way the rope supports a hanging man. What are the chances of Jeremy

:27:03.:27:08.

Corbyn following your advice? Probably not, I would think

:27:09.:27:12.

listening to John McDonald and Ken Livingstone they will go for a free

:27:13.:27:19.

vote, that will merely postponed... And give David Cameron his big

:27:20.:27:25.

majority. Yes. It seems to me time to face that up. Thank you very

:27:26.:27:40.

much. At this point we say goodbye to viewers in Scotland.

:27:41.:27:43.

Party divisions on the issue of air strikes

:27:44.:27:45.

Here's the Conservative MP and chairman of the Defence Select

:27:46.:27:49.

Committee, Julian Lewis, speaking in the Commons debate on Thursday.

:27:50.:27:51.

Air strikes alone will not be effective,

:27:52.:27:53.

they've got to be in coordination with credible ground forces.

:27:54.:27:56.

Now, the suggestion there are 70,000 non-Islamist, moderate, credible

:27:57.:27:58.

ground forces, I have to say, is a revelation to me and I suspect

:27:59.:28:01.

I've been joined by former Conservative Defence

:28:02.:28:05.

Two years ago you want to Britain to bomb the forces of President Assad,

:28:06.:28:19.

who is fighting Islamic State, now you want us to bomb Islamic State,

:28:20.:28:25.

which is fighting President Assad. Doesn't map flip-flop undermine your

:28:26.:28:29.

credibility? The original vote was very different, it was because Assad

:28:30.:28:34.

had used chemical weapons in breach of international law against his

:28:35.:28:39.

civilian population and the question then was worthy international

:28:40.:28:42.

community going to uphold that international law by making a

:28:43.:28:46.

punitive strike to teach the Assad regime and the rebels, who it was

:28:47.:28:50.

suspected might also have chemical weapons, that it would not be

:28:51.:28:57.

acceptable to use them. But it would have created more chaos in Syria and

:28:58.:29:02.

allowed Islamic State to benefit, to exploit that, as it had done

:29:03.:29:08.

previously. I'm not sure I'd buy that because if you have made a

:29:09.:29:11.

relatively small number of punitive strikes from some of the command and

:29:12.:29:16.

control of the regime to send a signal not to use chemical weapons

:29:17.:29:22.

again, that would have upheld the international community's position.

:29:23.:29:29.

Do you accept that extending British bombing into Syria now against

:29:30.:29:33.

Islamic State this time is not a military game changer, that it is --

:29:34.:29:39.

its military impact will be marginal at most? I think its military impact

:29:40.:29:45.

may be moderate at best, I accept that, however within that we have a

:29:46.:29:50.

number of weapons systems that can diminish the chance of civilian

:29:51.:29:53.

casualties, and I think that's important because it denies a

:29:54.:29:58.

propaganda weapon. Obviously anything that reduces civilian

:29:59.:30:03.

casualties is vital, but it won't change things very much on the

:30:04.:30:04.

ground militarily. The fact we have not been there has

:30:05.:30:16.

been an encouragement for other countries. For example, Saudi

:30:17.:30:21.

Arabia, UAE, Jordan, in recent months they have stopped

:30:22.:30:26.

contributing to the air campaigns. It makes it more difficult for us to

:30:27.:30:31.

persuade them to take part if we are not taking part. We have a

:30:32.:30:38.

militarily absurd policy of bombing in Iraq but not in Syria. After we

:30:39.:30:43.

have joined America, France, Bahrain, Syria, Russia, Australia,

:30:44.:30:51.

and recently Saudi Arabia and the UAE in bombing IS in Syria, what

:30:52.:30:58.

then? The question is, our ability to degrade military capability. One

:30:59.:31:02.

of the problems with sorties in Iraq is command and control is coming

:31:03.:31:06.

from Syria. That is where they are drawing strength from. The US has

:31:07.:31:12.

launched 2703 strikes in Syria alone and others have carried out 154. Why

:31:13.:31:19.

is that not doing the degrading? You have to carry out the number of

:31:20.:31:25.

attacks to provide that degradation. We need to continue that. The

:31:26.:31:30.

question you are alluding to is the right question. Even if you have

:31:31.:31:34.

degraded the ices capabilities, which is what we want, what is the

:31:35.:31:40.

next step? How do you hold any territory you may take from them?

:31:41.:31:46.

Part of the reply from the Prime Minister is there are 70,000

:31:47.:31:49.

moderate opposition fighters ready to become the ground force against

:31:50.:31:54.

Islamic State. Who is the leader and what do they want? You have a

:31:55.:32:02.

disparate grouping. Not 70,000 acting together. What the Prime

:32:03.:32:06.

Minister was saying from the joint intelligence committee, what they

:32:07.:32:10.

are saying was, there is a potential force of that size. The longer we

:32:11.:32:15.

wait to do great ices, the smaller that force is likely to be and the

:32:16.:32:20.

less its capabilities are likely to be. -- Isis. It is a fantasy to say

:32:21.:32:29.

there are 70,000 ground troops ready to come in and help on the ground if

:32:30.:32:35.

we extend the bombing to Syria. Let's assume the numbers are

:32:36.:32:40.

correct. To further questions we have to ask. Are they willing to

:32:41.:32:45.

operate together as a single force? The second is, do they have the

:32:46.:32:51.

capability to do so? Over the next few days, part of the debate will be

:32:52.:32:55.

around that. It will be around the fact you may have to supply some of

:32:56.:32:59.

those forces with mentoring and training to enable them to be able

:33:00.:33:06.

to be an effective force against Isis, which they have not

:33:07.:33:09.

necessarily been able to up until now. The wacky experience on that

:33:10.:33:19.

was disastrous. I would say, look at the other side. -- the wacky

:33:20.:33:27.

experience. Look at our ability to mental the Afghan army. Isn't it

:33:28.:33:34.

inevitable that everyone to make progress against Islamic State, in

:33:35.:33:38.

some way, President Assad and the Russians will have to become our

:33:39.:33:44.

allies? This is a very difficult pill to swallow for many people, who

:33:45.:33:51.

think the regime is particularly unpleasant. I would love to see a

:33:52.:33:54.

different regime in place that was not killing its civilian population

:33:55.:33:59.

and gay people in Syria chance to discover their own future. But, as

:34:00.:34:04.

we have done in previous military situations, sometimes we have to

:34:05.:34:07.

recognise these challenges have to be dealt with in series, not in

:34:08.:34:12.

parallel. That is what is very important about the statement by the

:34:13.:34:16.

Prime Minister. It is not an ices only strategy but Aaron -- Raqqa

:34:17.:34:28.

only strategy but and Raqqa first strategy. You are saying you are

:34:29.:34:39.

getting support of factions. The important thing is we bring together

:34:40.:34:44.

all those who want to deal with IS first. They are the threat to

:34:45.:34:50.

national. We need to grasp the size of that threat to national to. They

:34:51.:34:55.

hate us, Andrew. Not because of what we do because of who we are. They

:34:56.:35:03.

will never stop that. Why would we get help from non-IS forces on the

:35:04.:35:08.

ground if we are also seem to be on the side of the Russians? They are

:35:09.:35:14.

also a threat to those people inside Syria. It is in the interests of all

:35:15.:35:19.

parties concerned to deal with what is a highly ideological, dangerous,

:35:20.:35:26.

fascistic threat. They endanger regional security. We must not allow

:35:27.:35:30.

them to Hello and welcome to

:35:31.:35:38.

Sunday Politics. The Chancellor drops plans to axe

:35:39.:35:42.

tax credits, leaving Stormont with I'll be asking the Green MLA,

:35:43.:35:44.

Steven Agnew, and the chair of Citizens' Advice,

:35:45.:35:53.

Paul Callaghan, for their thoughts. With Paris about to host

:35:54.:35:57.

the latest climate change conference, how might any outcome

:35:58.:35:59.

affect this corner of the world? And with their thoughts throughout -

:36:00.:36:01.

Professor Deirdre Heenan and The Chancellor's decision not to

:36:02.:36:04.

scrap tax credits has left Stormont with a small windfall

:36:05.:36:14.

of 60 million a year. The cash had been set aside to help

:36:15.:36:18.

people hit by the proposed changes before

:36:19.:36:20.

the Chancellor's U-turn last week. With me is the Green Party MLA,

:36:21.:36:24.

Steven Agnew, and Paul Callaghan. You have tabled an urgent oral

:36:25.:36:39.

question at Stormont tomorrow. Is that to try and influence how the

:36:40.:36:47.

money is spent? Sinn Fein and the Alliance have given away powers

:36:48.:36:52.

legislatively. It is important that this is our money and that is how we

:36:53.:37:04.

spend it. I think transferring this money back into welfare, to

:37:05.:37:10.

essentially provide the public with what they promise would be a good

:37:11.:37:17.

way to spend it. There is dispute about the figure. 15 million per

:37:18.:37:20.

year that has been taken from another fund as part of this. There

:37:21.:37:30.

is a robbing the poor to pay the poor. The discretionary fund has

:37:31.:37:34.

been slashed disorders oche. Now it is not. It is not fine. People are

:37:35.:37:44.

going to be worse off in Northern Ireland. The way it was presented

:37:45.:37:47.

was not quite as good as what we saw.

:37:48.:37:53.

If you have the capacity to decide where the money would go where would

:37:54.:37:59.

you Channel it? Throughout the welfare reform process I said we

:38:00.:38:02.

need to protect people with disabilities and protect children.

:38:03.:38:06.

But is still happening. We have given the welfare pop-up money to --

:38:07.:38:17.

we have given the top up fund to the professor. There has been complete

:38:18.:38:24.

abdication by Sinn Fein and the Alliance. The power has been given

:38:25.:38:29.

away. That is not good enough. My recommendation to the professor

:38:30.:38:35.

would be to protect those with disabilities and children. By and

:38:36.:38:39.

assure the other parties would dispute your interpretation. They

:38:40.:38:45.

have been noticeable by their absence this week in the media. They

:38:46.:38:49.

have not come forward. If you had an influence over where the money would

:38:50.:38:53.

go what would you do? The first thing to say is that whatever way we

:38:54.:39:01.

measure it that wealthier mitigation arrangements are better than in

:39:02.:39:11.

Scotland, England and Wales. Any recommendations can only be within

:39:12.:39:16.

the fiscal envelope that they have. There is a couple of points. Before

:39:17.:39:21.

we deal with this question of tax credits and what has been described

:39:22.:39:25.

as a windfall, but I would not describe it as, if you look at what

:39:26.:39:29.

the Treasury is already imposing as fines on the executive, in this

:39:30.:39:35.

financial year the kicking at ?140 million, which is roughly ?20

:39:36.:39:39.

million over and above what is earmarked in the fresh start

:39:40.:39:43.

Agreement for welfare reform at a geisha. Already there is a ?20

:39:44.:39:46.

million gap there. That is before the deal with the questions that

:39:47.:39:50.

have been raised this week. The much bigger point to make is that the

:39:51.:39:56.

changes that the Chancellor announced in the art statement this

:39:57.:40:00.

week are simply a delay of the implications that were going to

:40:01.:40:04.

happen anyway around tax credits. The Institute for the school studies

:40:05.:40:10.

have said that people who would have been affected by the tax credits

:40:11.:40:15.

changes will by the end of the parliament actually be worse off

:40:16.:40:17.

after the Autumn Statement than they would have been and at the tax

:40:18.:40:21.

credits changes because all of the same productions to the incomes and

:40:22.:40:25.

more will happen under Universal Credit. From a citizens advice point

:40:26.:40:29.

of view and the perspective of the poultry sector, the ?60 million

:40:30.:40:34.

annually should be retained to cushion the impact of those people

:40:35.:40:37.

because they either see people who are going to be affected as would

:40:38.:40:40.

been affected by tax credit reductions. That is an important

:40:41.:40:44.

point. While may feel that your position to some extent has been

:40:45.:40:48.

vindicated and this is a development worth celebrating, four years down

:40:49.:40:54.

the line went Universal Credit takes over from the current system, nobody

:40:55.:40:57.

knows quite what the situation is going to be, but this is a fair bet

:40:58.:41:01.

that people in receipt of benefits will be worse off, not better off.

:41:02.:41:06.

Absolutely. This is the problem with giving power back over to a Tory

:41:07.:41:09.

garments. There has been a war on the poor. It has been waged by this

:41:10.:41:16.

Tory Government. It is to continue. This latest piece of spend is just

:41:17.:41:25.

that. But that power comes back. It does not reside in Westminster. But

:41:26.:41:29.

what it ensures us that play mini legislation and regulation changes,

:41:30.:41:35.

these types of details, that'll all be decided in Westminster before we

:41:36.:41:40.

get our powers back. That is what DUP, Sinn Fein and the Alliance

:41:41.:41:45.

wanted. They wanted somebody else to make a difficult decision.

:41:46.:41:49.

What concern is it that locally elected politicians will not have

:41:50.:41:53.

the degree of influence that they might otherwise have had had the

:41:54.:41:56.

Mideast difficult decisions entirely at Stormont? That is a matter for

:41:57.:42:03.

the political parties to discuss. There are lots of ways in which the

:42:04.:42:09.

impact of welfare reform can be made less worse. A lot of that is in the

:42:10.:42:14.

detail of the legislation and the regulations which has been handed

:42:15.:42:18.

back to Westminster. There is a little bit of ambiguity over how

:42:19.:42:22.

much influence the Assembly will have around that and how quickly

:42:23.:42:26.

those powers and advances will come back. We want to say that back as

:42:27.:42:29.

quickly as possible. What do you say to those people

:42:30.:42:37.

watching who think that benefits in Northern Ireland are better

:42:38.:42:39.

protected in Northern Ireland than anywhere else in the UK? There are

:42:40.:42:44.

other areas which could do very well with this extra money, schools,

:42:45.:42:53.

hospitals, education. We have done our bit. The mitigation is there for

:42:54.:42:57.

those in receipt of benefits, other alias needs to be with that and

:42:58.:43:01.

vulnerable people need hospital bed. That is right but the executive, the

:43:02.:43:05.

parties that signed up to fresh start, took the decision to cushion

:43:06.:43:09.

the blow to a certain level. Regardless of what being George

:43:10.:43:14.

Osborne calls at, if the parties are to honour what they set out to do in

:43:15.:43:18.

fresh start, the windfall, as you described it, needs to be retained

:43:19.:43:26.

to help the same people who will be affected are freshly bite reductions

:43:27.:43:31.

by another name and the delayed time. But this was a horror film,

:43:32.:43:39.

the director has decided there is going to be a costume change and the

:43:40.:43:44.

villain will come on later in the script but the end is just as gaudy

:43:45.:43:45.

as everyone was expecting, and even a little bit worse. You are nodding

:43:46.:43:52.

your head. Absolutely. This is a Tory Government waging war on the

:43:53.:43:58.

poor in Northern Ireland. If we have people driven to destitution we're

:43:59.:44:02.

going to have to put in services to protect them whether hospital

:44:03.:44:08.

appointments, food banks, one way or another we need to look after these

:44:09.:44:10.

people. And let's hear what Deirdre and Alex

:44:11.:44:17.

think. Most people listening are confused.

:44:18.:46:02.

Claims, counterclaims. This is our money. Most people listening are

:46:03.:46:03.

confused. Claims, counterclaims. This is ourmoney. . Most people

:46:04.:46:06.

listening areconfused. Claims, counterclaims. This is ourmoney. .

:46:07.:46:08.

Most peoplelistening areconfused. Claims,counterclaims. This is our

:46:09.:46:09.

money. . Who needs the money most? Most

:46:10.:47:21.

Jim Allister has told the TUV conference that the party will set

:47:22.:47:33.

He strongly criticised the Executive's record and said

:47:34.:47:35.

the TUV will make an issue of greed and squander during the campaign.

:47:36.:47:38.

Our Political Correspondent, Chris Page, was

:47:39.:47:43.

There is no doubt he makes a big impact.

:47:44.:47:57.

When the bags and wind farms are biting as eight of business.

:47:58.:48:07.

I on the ball and said I on the camera that would suit some of our

:48:08.:48:13.

ministers better. He to aim at what he described as the catastrophic

:48:14.:48:23.

failure of DUP, Sinn Fein rule. Enough is enough. Would you be

:48:24.:48:35.

expecting two or three or four? I am not putting numbers on it. 11 TUV

:48:36.:48:44.

candidates have been selected so far. The former chair of Ukip will

:48:45.:48:53.

stand in Southdown. You were associated with one party and note

:48:54.:49:02.

you are standing for another. TUV and Ukip have similar views on

:49:03.:49:07.

European issues. What makes the TUV different is that it has a positive

:49:08.:49:13.

message on the issue of the devolved Assembly. Conference speeches

:49:14.:49:21.

emphasise that the TUV fever voluntarily caution and opposition.

:49:22.:49:27.

Another issue was unit. The party wants the UK to leave the EU.

:49:28.:49:37.

Northern Ireland is not served well by the EU. We would have the money

:49:38.:49:43.

that we are presently paying end, millions and millions each week,

:49:44.:49:47.

have it back, and then decide our priorities. Some of those priorities

:49:48.:49:51.

would still be in Northern Ireland as part of the UK.

:49:52.:49:56.

In that debate as others the TUV voice wants to be as loud as

:49:57.:50:01.

possible. How he the volume will become all depend on how many MLAs

:50:02.:50:07.

they get in me. Chris Page among the party faithful

:50:08.:50:10.

at yesterday's TUV conference. More than a hundred world leaders

:50:11.:50:12.

are due in Paris this week for They're meeting to try to agree a

:50:13.:50:15.

deal to curb emissions and prevent Among them will be our Environment

:50:16.:50:20.

Minister, Mark H Durkan. But what difference can somewhere

:50:21.:50:23.

as small as Northern Ireland make? Northern Ireland is a small place.

:50:24.:50:40.

What impact can Mark H Durkan have? David Cameron once promised as the

:50:41.:50:48.

cleanest Government ever. He shot the Huskies a long time ago. He had

:50:49.:50:56.

been dismantling support for renewable energy and withdrawing

:50:57.:50:59.

from that leadership role. There is an increasing onus on the devolved

:51:00.:51:04.

parts of the UK to take up the mantle of leadership. When Mark goes

:51:05.:51:11.

to the conference he will not only contribute, but there is a deep

:51:12.:51:15.

learning that goes on for ministers who discover that the most desperate

:51:16.:51:23.

communities, cities and countries are beginning to transform their

:51:24.:51:26.

economies, responding to climate change. But also help mark with the

:51:27.:51:33.

groundwork he has been doing. He will be tabling paper at the

:51:34.:51:38.

executive and the next couple of days, reintroducing the idea of a

:51:39.:51:41.

climate change Bill for Northern Ireland with targets so that we will

:51:42.:51:45.

bring new momentum to the delivery of climate change performance, the

:51:46.:51:51.

transformation that needs to take place. If you were in a position to

:51:52.:51:55.

advise Mark H Durkan on what he should be saying is what they should

:51:56.:51:58.

be hoping to come home with what would that advice be? We need to

:51:59.:52:03.

think about climate change less as an environmental issue and think

:52:04.:52:07.

about it as an industrial transformation. We were once in the

:52:08.:52:12.

cockpit of the industrial revolution. Are going to be part the

:52:13.:52:16.

new industrial resolution that you transformation that is required? He

:52:17.:52:23.

will have to have news that touches on each of the sectors that are

:52:24.:52:29.

major contributors. Farmers have to become more efficient with

:52:30.:52:32.

application of nitrogen and fertilisers. We could embrace ideas

:52:33.:52:37.

like the circular economy. Resolve issues like fuel to but upgrading is

:52:38.:52:42.

essential accommodation. Copenhagen was the last big climate conference

:52:43.:52:47.

six years ago. It was a bit of a disappointment. It was dubbed by

:52:48.:52:52.

some critics as hopeless. Realistically what do you think

:52:53.:52:58.

world leaders in our own Mark Duggan and other environment ministers can

:52:59.:53:04.

hope to achieve? One of the lessons is that we have to emphasise more

:53:05.:53:08.

what we can do locally, from the state level and the city level.

:53:09.:53:13.

Leadership, even among civil society, there will be a march today

:53:14.:53:17.

at two o'clock for example, to support logical leaders in taking

:53:18.:53:21.

forward this agenda. But as a big difference this time. For past

:53:22.:53:27.

couple of years the parties to the convention have been tabling their

:53:28.:53:34.

indicative offers of emissions reductions, policies that will now

:53:35.:53:39.

be taken up in the negotiations. Readers will attend the start of the

:53:40.:53:46.

conference. We already know that the ambition is beginning to move as

:53:47.:53:53.

towards 2 degrees temperature goal. We have to do more. The hope to

:53:54.:53:57.

close that gap during the negotiations but it will not be left

:53:58.:54:00.

to the negotiators in Paris. The parties who are going there have

:54:01.:54:06.

some level of ambition. The other part of the climate Justice peace is

:54:07.:54:13.

the technology that the poorest of the poor need in order to adapt to

:54:14.:54:19.

emissions reductions. A big part of this is about transferring

:54:20.:54:23.

resources, helping those who are most exposed to climate change at

:54:24.:54:30.

the moment. The challenge is to get countries to set aside the specific

:54:31.:54:32.

interests and agendas for the glitter warble good and that is a

:54:33.:54:36.

challenge for a new industrial powerhouses like China and India but

:54:37.:54:43.

also for France, Germany, the UK and the US. It is not about setting

:54:44.:54:47.

aside interests, it is about aligning our interests with nature.

:54:48.:54:53.

You cannot go shoot with nature. Nature has to be aligned. Religious

:54:54.:55:00.

leaders are now tough thing about the rates of nature that has to be

:55:01.:55:04.

set alongside human rights in the context of climate justice. It is

:55:05.:55:09.

not one or the other. It is about aligning our priorities, he will

:55:10.:55:12.

upon the earth, with the needs of the Earth. We will see how that

:55:13.:55:16.

alignment takes place in Paris this week.

:55:17.:55:26.

Now look back at the week in 60 seconds.

:55:27.:55:33.

An extra ?240 million leader after the Chancellor's U-turn on tax

:55:34.:55:37.

credits cuts. The Chancellor has changed his mind completely. It is

:55:38.:55:45.

fantastic. The final Assembly lap for Peter Robinson and an unexpected

:55:46.:55:47.

sendoff. But that was not always like this. He was a total pain in

:55:48.:55:58.

the early days and now he is contributing hugely. Rare praise

:55:59.:56:07.

from the DUP for a Secretary of State. When they threatened tough to

:56:08.:56:12.

lose that she stood up to them. The Health Minister changed course after

:56:13.:56:19.

private care home closures. We pause and we reflect and we give

:56:20.:56:21.

consideration to what has been plus boards. And at Stormont to new faces

:56:22.:56:28.

were unveiled. Seamus Heaney and CS Lewis

:56:29.:56:36.

wrapping up Gareth Gordon's 60 Let's have a final chat with Deirdre

:56:37.:56:39.

and Alex. Were you surprised to see Peter

:56:40.:56:50.

Robinson getting a standing ovation from some members of Sinn Fein. It

:56:51.:56:56.

would be bizarre to have done the deal and then not to applaud. Only

:56:57.:57:02.

six months ago they were willing to do a deal. It is just a civil thing

:57:03.:57:08.

at moments like this to acknowledge the fact he has been nearer 40

:57:09.:57:13.

years, he has made a difference, the Assembly exists largely because of

:57:14.:57:16.

what Peter Robinson has done. It would've been nice to that. The

:57:17.:57:21.

Ulster Unionists refused to stand up or to clap. Who could have guessed

:57:22.:57:29.

that in a short space of time they wanted to deal with them? It seemed

:57:30.:57:34.

churlish. The leadership should have been acknowledged and was not. It

:57:35.:57:38.

did not cast them in a good light. Looking back area lies it was

:57:39.:57:42.

probably a decision. You both attended for professional reasons

:57:43.:57:49.

the TUV conference. I very, but the Jim Allister on display. He is

:57:50.:57:54.

always confident. He knows he is the best public Speaker in politics in

:57:55.:57:58.

Northern Ireland. The big challenge for the TUV is the best public

:57:59.:58:00.

Speaker in politics in Northern Ireland. The big challenge for the

:58:01.:58:05.

TUV as they that document the vast majority of people deep down do not

:58:06.:58:10.

believe that Jim Allister and TUV wanted to work. That'll be a

:58:11.:58:14.

problem. It was our arrival rousing speech, what we have come to expect

:58:15.:58:18.

from Jim Allister. They were saying they want to go back to direct rule

:58:19.:58:21.

and most commentators would say be careful what you wish for. Could the

:58:22.:58:26.

electricity or two for them come the election? It'll be tough for them.

:58:27.:58:30.

They are only standing 16 candidates. Two or three maximum.

:58:31.:58:33.

officers will be lost? We are going to let that question

:58:34.:58:36.

hang now. Thank you. Andrew. Sadly that is it for today because

:58:37.:58:48.

we have just been told we have been truncated to make way for live

:58:49.:58:52.

coverage of the Davis Cup tennis final here on BBC One. There is

:58:53.:58:54.

always next week! Remember - if it's Sunday,

:58:55.:58:59.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:59:00.:59:14.

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew discusses the disagreement within Labour's shadow cabinet over Syria with Lord Falconer and air strikes with Liam Fox and George Galloway. On the political panel are Janan Ganesh from The Financial Times, Beth Rigby from The Times and Nick Watt from The Guardian.


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