14/01/2018 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


14/01/2018

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Morning, everyone.

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I'm Sarah Smith and this

is the Sunday Politics -

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your inside briefing on all the big

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political stories happening

in Westminster and beyond.

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Coming up on today's show.

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The decision to release serial sex

attacker John Worboys...

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Does the Government now "look more

like the country it represents"?

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After a tricky reshuffle, we speak

to one of the new faces sitting

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around the Cabinet table -

the immigration minister

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Caroline Nokes.

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Does the Government have a clearer

idea about what our future

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And here...

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After a week of bitter exchanges

over Barry McElduff's Kingsmill

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video, Sinn Fein and the DUP

softened the political tone.

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But do the three smaller

parties think we're any

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closer to a breakthrough?

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And sitting around our top

table today, I'm joined

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by some familiar faces.

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We tried a reshuffle

of our own but they simply refused

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to budge: Tom Newton Dunn,

Julia Hartley-Brewer,

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and Steve Richards.

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Now, after a pretty bumpy 2017,

Theresa May actually went

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in to the Christmas break

in relatively good political health.

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So, what better way to kick off 2018

than by shaking up her top team

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and reasserting her authority?

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But as she found this week, things

don't always go according to plan.

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If you're going to carry out major

surgery on your Government, you need

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to be sure the prognosis is good.

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It was a picture of health

to begin with, a fresh,

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new team at Party HQ,

but before long, complications

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arose.

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Justine Greening, who's had a rocky

time at Education, decided

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she'd had enough.

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She quit the Government

rather than accept a

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sideways move.

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While Jeremy Hunt refused

to budge from his job at

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Health.

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He even left his meeting having

added social care to his job

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title.

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There was a fresher look among

the junior ministerial ranks.

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But when the new Cabinet met

on Tuesday morning, it looked...

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Well, very much like the old one.

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Normally loyal Conservative grandee

Nicholas Soames asked, "Is that it?"

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The state of the NHS

then caused more pain.

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Dozens of senior doctors wrote to

the Prime Minister saying conditions

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in some hospitals were

becoming intolerable.

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Patients were dying prematurely.

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We have now clearly reached

the point where the NHS

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cannot meet the standards

of care that we would,

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all of us in the NHS,

ministers included, want to provide.

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At Prime Minister's Questions,

the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn

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pressed on the bruise.

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We know the Prime Minister

recognises there is a

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crisis in our NHS,

because she wanted to sack

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the Health Secretary last week

but was too weak to do it.

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Mr Corbyn announced his own

reshuffle towards the end of the

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week, with a surprising

return to the front

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bench for Clive Lewis,

who

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has been cleared of sexual

harassment claims.

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While two other Labour

MPs, Kelvin Hopkins and

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Ivan Lewis, have been referred

to an independent disciplinary

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panel over allegations

of sexual misconduct.

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On Friday, US President Donald Trump

raised the temperature, cancelling

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his visit to the UK next month

to open the new American Embassy.

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Calling the decision to relocate

the building to an off

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location is a bad deal.

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His friends on this side

of the pond suspected

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there were other reasons

for his decision.

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Just maybe, Sadiq Khan,

Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party

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planning mass protests, maybe those

optics he didn't like the look of.

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Nigel Farage also set

pulses racing with this:

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I'm reaching the point

of

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thinking that we should

have a second referendum because...

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On what?

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On EU membership.

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The whole thing?!

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Of course, of course.

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The Conservatives

hope focusing on the

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environment will bring

the party back to health.

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The Prime Minister teamed up

with her new eco-warrior

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Environment Secretary, Michael Gove,

to crack down on the use of

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plastics.

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We must reduce the demand

for plastic, reduce the number of

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plastics in circulation

and improve our recycling rates.

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It all seems strangely

reminiscent of someone who

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once said, vote blue, go green.

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In another tricky

week that's left the

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PM looking a little

green around the gills.

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Now, let's pick up on a story

which broke overnight: the new

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Justice Secretary David Gauke

is considering a judicial review

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of the decision to release

the serial sex attacker

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John Worboys on parole.

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Earlier this month the Parole Board

announced that he would be released

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under strict licence conditions.

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He was jailed in 2009 for a minimum

of eight years for drugging

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and sexually assaulting 12 women.

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However, it's thought he may have

carried out as many as 100 rapes

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and sexual assaults on women

in London in the early 2000s.

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I will take this to the panel first.

This is obviously a very emotive

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case, and people get very worked up

about it, but the politics of the

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Justice Secretary, Tom, asking for a

judicial review against the body

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which is really under the

supervision of his own department,

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this gets a little odd.

Justice

Secretary criticises Justice

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Department shock. There is a whiff

of panic in the Government over this

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now. I think David Gauke's decision

is emblematic of that. For whatever

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reason, the Government have found

themselves on the wrong side of

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public opinion on this. An appalling

mass serial rapist is about to be

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let out of prison this week, having

served less than ten years for

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crimes most of which he wasn't even

prosecuted for. They have seven or

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eight days to do this judicial

review, and David Gauke has only

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done it because he is under pressure

from other Cabinet ministers. The

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entire Justice Department and

justice policy has really been

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interested for up to seven years

because the Tory Government really

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can't make up its mind between a

liberal justice establishment is

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based on rehabilitation and less

time in prison and the more

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traditional Tory authoritarian lock

them up and throw the key away

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system, and the consequence is

today's decision. You have had five

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Justice Secretary is, from the king

of soft justice himself, Ken

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of soft justice himself, Ken Clarke,

and now David Gauke, so perhaps it's

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no huge surprise that the system is

now in a bit of a mess.

If Tom is

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right that the Government are

playing catch up on John Worboys

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because of the huge public outcry,

is it nonetheless the right thing to

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do?

It seems to me the parole board

breached their own rules. The

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victims have a right to make

representations. We know that some

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of the victims whose cases were

brought, and again, he is not

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convicted as a serial rapist because

those cases one brought to court, a

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decision made by Kia Starmer, then

the Director of Public Prosecutions.

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The other fundamental issue is a lot

of what Tom was saying, that the

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Tory Government is out of touch, as

I think all of the establishment and

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party leaders are. Is this

ridiculous nonsense that someone is

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released halfway through a sentence,

if you are sentenced to ten years or

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whatever, you should be serving the

full sentence, and maybe six months

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off for good behaviour, or better

still, more years on for bad

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behaviour. I think the British

public think the justice system is

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an absolute joke, and they think

that because it is.

You raise an

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interesting point about what the

public care about versus what is

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debated at Westminster. We spent an

enormous amount of last year talking

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about Brexit, to the exclusion of

most other things. A few other

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issues have raised their heads this

week, Steve. First and foremost, the

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NHS has been causing more than a few

political problems for the

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Government.

If Brexit wasn't

swamping everything, this would be

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the overwhelming issue. Voters are

much more concerned about this than

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anything else, with good cause. At

some point, there will have to be a

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grown discussion about funding of

the NHS and how we pay for it.

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Whether that will be possible in the

current climate I doubt. But I don't

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think it's entirely impossible

because I think the crisis will

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intensify. In a way, that has been

overlooked, that 2017 election

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partly accepted miraculously in

British politics that to get

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improvements in some services you

have to pay for it. So, maybe there

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will be a grown-up debate, but don't

hold your breath. In the meantime,

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it will be an issue that Theresa May

will have to keep at least one eye

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on, as well as trying to negotiate

the impossible with Brexit.

At PMQs,

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the Prime Minister said the NHS was

the best prepared it had ever been,

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and doctors were saying that

patients were dying prematurely. In

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the short-term, political damage

absolutely. The tanks are parked on

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Labour territory there. The general

consensus in the country is not that

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they trust the Tories on the NHS,

which is a big issue for them. A lot

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of the problems are down to the fact

that we're getting older and living

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longer, and there are amazing

treatments, operations and drugs

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that can keep us alive. We see it as

a problem but it is a wonderful

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miracle of modern science and

medicine and we should be grateful

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for such problems.

The big news was

that we were going to get a

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Government that looked more like the

rest of the country in the

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reshuffle. It turned out not to be

quite as dramatic as some of us

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expected. Was it a Government fail?

Depends how you define fail. It has

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taken a few days for the penny to

drop, though I had my suspicions on

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the night when some of the 20 15th

intake got no promotions at all. It

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was a tell-tale sign. Was it a

success in that it stored to the top

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of the buildings? Not really, she

just rearranged the deckchairs on

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the Titanic. Caroline Noakes was

attending Cabinet rather than being

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a full cabinet minister, but the

Theresa May managed to fend off the

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vultures coming for her by

absolutely wilfully, it now appears,

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failing to put key rivals into key

positions, people like Rory Stewart,

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Dominic Raj, some of the 2015ers? It

was a public fail but digging in

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privately.

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Well, listening to all that is my

first guest, Caroline Nokes.

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She was promoted to immigration

minister in the reshuffle this

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week and, in that role,

now attends Cabinet.

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Congratulations on the new job. You

are presumably part of the making

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the Government look more like the

country. Did the Prime Minister

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achieve that?

I think she did. Look

at the whip's offers, where there

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are more women than ever before. I

remember coming in in 2010 and

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looking at a wet's office that was

really mail.

Why can't we have 50-50

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women in the Cabinet?

We are heading

in the right direction, there are

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two more women in the Cabinet.

Even

the Scottish Government has a policy

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of 50-50 in the Cabinet - surely

it's possible?

We started from a

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very low base of women, even

elected. I think we're doing a

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fantastic job of encouraging more

women to come forward, and from more

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diverse backgrounds. It is a work in

progress but we are headed in the

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right direction.

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right direction. People like Kerry

bad not, who went to the same

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university as I did, the University

of Sussex, hardly a breeding ground

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for Tory politicians.

In the

Government, there are 3% non-white

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people - not very representative?

We

have done a good job of attracting

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more diverse people to come and

stand the rise in the Government.

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Our messages, -- our message is,

we're working hard to make sure that

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those bright, young women from

diverse backgrounds have a chance.

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You know, it's a process, isn't it?

We are all climbing up the ladder. I

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think the Cabinet looks better than

it did. I have always advocated more

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women in Parliament, and the last

debate I did was about getting more

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women to stand in politics, and that

really matters.

The big news this

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morning is the idea that the Justice

Secretary may take a judicial review

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against the release of John Worboys.

What is your view on that? Should do

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just this minute himself be taking

judicial review is against this kind

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of decision?

We will look at the

victims of Worboys and we want them

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to get the support they need and to

see that justice is being done. It

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is absolutely right that David Gauke

is looking at a judicial review.

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None of us feel happy with the

parole board decision. This is a man

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who served less than ten years, and

it's a horrific number of victims.

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We can't see the parole board's

decision or the reasoning for it.

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The Government could change that at

a stroke and allow them to publish

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it. Should they?

The Justice

Secretary is reviewing the process,

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which is important. We want people

to have confidence. Our justice

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system is a very old and proud one.

Let's not undermine it. Let's make

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sure we get the right decisions in

place.

Lets get onto your own brief,

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your new brief on immigration. It

means you inherit the target of

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reducing net migration to the tens

of thousands. The last five

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ministers have failed, will you do

it?

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The last five ministers have seen

the trajectory heading down, the

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last figures we saw in the summer

show it dropped significantly.

It

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dropped slightly, 14,000 lower than

when you came to power in 2010,

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overall net migration at 240 4000.

We want to make sure this is a

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brittle open for business, that the

brightest and best can come here to

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work and study. We are listening to

the universities and to business via

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the immigration advisory

committee...

So if we are open to

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business and the brightest and best

come here why have this target of

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reducing net migration to less than

100,000? Lots of Cabinet ministers

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would like to get rid of it. You

could have lifted and the 2017

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manifesto and got rid of quite a

headache.

We had a referendum in

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2016 which sent a clear message that

people want that target to remain,

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they want to see as reducing

immigration to sustainable levels

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and we are doing just that. It is in

the manifesto so that is the

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direction of travel.

Immigration

from outside the EU, you claimed

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that once we leave everything will

change with freedom of movement, but

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net migration from outside the EU

which you have complete control over

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now, it's over 100,000 in and of

itself. Why hasn't that been tackled

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in the seven years that this has now

been a target?

We are attacking it,

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and we are doing this I have a

banking measures you have heard

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about this week, working to make

sure that those with bank accounts

0:17:080:17:10

and are not here legally have those

Fresnel cursive necessary, that is

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important, we have a raft of

measures but the current Home

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Secretary and the previous one have

been clear on this, we will get

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these numbers down and do it in a

manageable and sustained way.

It is

0:17:230:17:28

not what business one. The Tory

mayor Andy Street says the target

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should be more like 150,000 so

businesses can attract people with

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the skills they need and George

Osborne says this is economic and

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made illiterate because we need

higher migration and that --

0:17:420:17:46

economically illiterate.

Which is

why we are listening to the

0:17:460:17:49

committee which will report in

September which will give a solid

0:17:490:17:52

expert economist's view on what

migration levels should be. But it

0:17:520:17:56

was in the manifesto, we are

determined to head in that direction

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and bring immigration down to a

sustainable level.

If you're

0:18:000:18:04

immigration advisor comes to you and

says somebody like Andy Street is

0:18:040:18:08

right we need around 150,000 coming,

will you change it? Because this was

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a manifesto promise to get it down

to under 110,000 a year, so what

0:18:140:18:20

will that looked like if you have

disabled we didn't get it right.

Am

0:18:200:18:25

not going to prejudge.

I and asking

what you will do with their view

0:18:250:18:30

because you are stuck with this

promise of reducing immigration to

0:18:300:18:34

tens of thousands, there's not much

you can do if they oppose that.

You

0:18:340:18:38

are telling someone who has been in

the job less than a week that she

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should make a decision on the hoof

in a TV studio! Not a chance. What I

0:18:420:18:46

need to do is listen to the experts

and come up with the direction of

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travel that satisfies those who

voted Believe in the referendum,

0:18:500:18:54

that satisfies businesses, like the

brilliant Russell group University

0:18:540:18:59

and the one in Southampton on the

edge of my constituency can still

0:18:590:19:03

attract the best students. This is a

really difficult complicated area.

0:19:030:19:07

He mentioned the need to attract the

brightest students. While other

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numbers of students coming to

Britain to study included in the net

0:19:110:19:16

migration figures? You could help

yourselves quickly by taking them

0:19:160:19:19

out of it. Just about every Cabinet

member wants them removed from

0:19:190:19:23

official figures, why are they

there?

The O M as determinate

0:19:230:19:27

students should be included because

they are here for more than 12

0:19:270:19:30

months. We must make sure we have

the public services that support

0:19:300:19:37

them. Many of them go home after

their study as they should but it is

0:19:370:19:40

important that we work with the

immigration advisory committee to

0:19:400:19:44

get the right answers.

You are happy

about students being included in the

0:19:440:19:50

migration figures?

And happy we've

got 24% more coming to our

0:19:500:19:54

universities than we had in 2010.

I'm happy that we are attracting a

0:19:540:19:58

great calibre of student here, I'm

equally happy that our former

0:19:580:20:03

feminists are cracked down on bogus

colleges and close them because we

0:20:030:20:07

want bright students to come here

and in the -- that our former Prime

0:20:070:20:11

Minister cracked down on bogus

colleges and closed them.

Button

0:20:110:20:16

back to the panel, Steve Camille

can't envy the new Immigration

0:20:160:20:20

Minister being tasked with reducing

immigration to a level that no other

0:20:200:20:25

Immigration Minister has been able

to achieve.

I don't envy you, I

0:20:250:20:30

don't know your Private view but I

do note that most Cabinet ministers

0:20:300:20:34

don't want student numbers to be

part of the total figure and Theresa

0:20:340:20:38

May alone is still pressing this.

I've just been doing a series about

0:20:380:20:45

a David Cameron. He made a series of

targets which were never met, as you

0:20:450:20:49

said in the interview. Good luck

with that. Lots of people I meet now

0:20:490:20:54

who were in favour of Brexit, like

farmers, pleading, as you will know,

0:20:540:21:00

for cheap Labour from Eastern Europe

to continue. They don't want to fill

0:21:000:21:04

in loads more forms to get them. So

there's a lot of talk

0:21:040:21:14

there's a lot of talk about Nimby

free movement and you have a tough

0:21:140:21:17

brief.

Julia, should net immigration

be reduced to tens of thousands, is

0:21:170:21:23

it important to the public?

I find

it bizarre they asked to a target

0:21:230:21:27

they've never done anything to

reach, certainly the immigration

0:21:270:21:31

levels that they were able to

control under the coalition and

0:21:310:21:35

David Cameron on his own, the

numbers can't be controlled

0:21:350:21:39

completely, they never even came

close, it was more than double,

0:21:390:21:43

about 250,000. I find this row about

students strange. If you live in the

0:21:430:21:48

country for three or four years you

need somewhere to live, you'll be

0:21:480:21:51

getting buses and trains, might need

to go to the hospital, is that the

0:21:510:21:56

idea that these people don't exist

because they are not here

0:21:560:22:00

permanently? And some of them do

stay. It's ridiculous. We need a

0:22:000:22:04

sensible debate. Brexit wasn't about

ending immigration. It was about us.

0:22:040:22:10

Like virtually every other country

in the world choosing who gets to

0:22:100:22:14

come here. If you are qualified and

have a skill we need we would love

0:22:140:22:18

to have you, come on in, the water

is lovely! But if we just want cheap

0:22:180:22:24

Labour subsidised by the taxpayer

with a housing benefit, to do jobs

0:22:240:22:29

not paid enough, then I don't think

we should. When it comes to farmers

0:22:290:22:32

we should pay more for...

Julia has

given quite a good explanation of

0:22:320:22:39

why the target was set up and should

probably stay because if there is no

0:22:390:22:43

target, then cheap Labour will

continue to flow in because it's the

0:22:430:22:47

easiest thing for business to do. If

you are limited in who you can bring

0:22:470:22:51

in new might turn to the indigenous

British population and start hiring

0:22:510:22:56

them to do decent jobs they are

perfectly capable of doing.

The

0:22:560:23:01

panel will be staying with us

throughout the programme. Thank you

0:23:010:23:05

to Caroline Nokes, the Immigration

Minister, for coming in.

0:23:050:23:08

Now with all the other stuff that's

been going on this week,

0:23:080:23:11

you might be concerned we'd

forgotten about the small

0:23:110:23:13

matter of Brexit.

0:23:130:23:14

But don't worry, it's

still very much on the agenda.

0:23:140:23:16

Having sealed a deal

on the divorce talks,

0:23:160:23:19

the focus is now shifting

to the future relationship.

0:23:190:23:20

The EU says we can only

have an 'off-the-shelf' model,

0:23:200:23:23

like the deals with Norway

or Canada; but the UK Government

0:23:230:23:25

says we can be far more ambitious,

as Elizabeth Glinka reports.

0:23:250:23:30

# Do you have the time #

To listen to me whine?#.

0:23:300:23:38

In her Florence speech,

Theresa May made it

0:23:410:23:43

clear that when it comes

to

0:23:430:23:45

trade negotiations with the EU,

the UK isn't looking for any

0:23:450:23:47

off-the-shelf kind of deal.

0:23:470:23:48

It wants something

special and bespoke.

0:23:480:23:52

I'm optimistic about

what we can achieve

0:23:520:23:54

by finding a creative solution

to a new economic relationship that

0:23:540:23:58

can support prosperity

for all our peoples.

0:23:580:24:03

Before Christmas, the senior

official in charge of Brexit

0:24:030:24:06

told the Cabinet that

when it comes to that

0:24:060:24:08

creative solution,

they

0:24:080:24:11

should start thinking in terms

of three baskets, what some people

0:24:110:24:14

are calling managed divergence.

0:24:140:24:15

The Institute for

Government has been

0:24:150:24:17

looking at what it means.

0:24:170:24:21

Three baskets corresponds

to the three areas

0:24:210:24:22

that Theresa May spoke

about in her Florence speech.

0:24:220:24:25

We have full alignment,

where we will continue to

0:24:250:24:27

meet the same outcomes

in the same way as we do now.

0:24:270:24:30

Regulatory equivalence

is where we will

0:24:300:24:31

continue to meet the same

outcomes as the EU

0:24:310:24:33

but might go about it

in a

0:24:330:24:35

slightly different way.

0:24:350:24:36

And then the final basket

around divergence,

0:24:360:24:40

where we will go about things

in a different way and may choose

0:24:400:24:43

to take completely different

outcomes at the

0:24:430:24:45

end of it.

0:24:450:24:47

OK, so if we were to look

at particular industries, say

0:24:470:24:50

something like aviation, maybe

workers' rights, we might put them

0:24:500:24:52

in this basket because we are saying

not much is going to change.

0:24:520:24:57

It would be very difficult to put

0:24:570:24:58

whole industries and whole sectors

in specific baskets.

0:24:580:25:01

If you take agriculture,

for example, state aid

0:25:010:25:05

and how much overall we can

subsidise our farmers may well sit

0:25:050:25:11

in full alignment, whereas issues

about agricultural and environmental

0:25:110:25:14

protection standards,

we could continue to

0:25:140:25:15

meet the same goals

but

0:25:150:25:17

by different means, and they can sit

in the middle basket.

0:25:170:25:22

Whereas, actually,

exactly what we subsidise

0:25:220:25:25

our farmers for could be completely

up to the UK and sit in the

0:25:250:25:28

divergent basket.

0:25:280:25:29

So it would be very difficult

to put single sectors

0:25:290:25:31

in single baskets.

0:25:310:25:33

If the UK is looking

for a high degree of access

0:25:330:25:36

to the single market,

then the EU will expect

0:25:360:25:38

lots of things ending up in the full

alignment basket,

0:25:380:25:42

whereas the UK will probably want

to try and pull as much as possible

0:25:420:25:44

into the regulatory

equivalence basket.

0:25:440:25:47

Of course, the point of all this

is is to remind the EU that

0:25:470:25:52

when it comes to these negotiations,

the UK is in a unique position

0:25:520:25:55

because currently we

are completely in sync.

0:25:550:25:58

It's in the interests of Britain

and the EU to get on

0:25:580:26:01

together.

0:26:010:26:08

People are thinking that it's

a binary thing, we are either

0:26:080:26:10

in the EU or we're out, that it's

night and day, but it isn't.

0:26:100:26:14

The point about

managed divergence is

0:26:140:26:15

that it does give us

much more flexibility.

0:26:150:26:17

We can decide for ourselves

which bits we want to keep

0:26:170:26:20

and which bits we want

to amend or get rid of.

0:26:200:26:22

And I think...

0:26:220:26:23

I think that's a huge opportunity.

0:26:230:26:25

Philip Hammond and

David Davies have been

0:26:250:26:26

on a charm offensive

in Germany this week,

0:26:260:26:28

so just how are those very British

baskets going down in

0:26:280:26:31

Brussels?

0:26:310:26:32

There is a concern that the UK

will take a shopping basket,

0:26:320:26:35

pick off the elements of the major

trade agreements the EU has secured

0:26:350:26:38

with third countries,

take all those together.

0:26:380:26:40

It gets the UK very close to full

membership of the single

0:26:400:26:43

market without any of

the obligations, so I think

0:26:430:26:45

they view managed divergence

as another way in

0:26:450:26:50

which the UK either hopes to cherry

pick or have its cake and eat it.

0:26:500:26:54

All member states will

agree that they can't

0:26:540:26:56

set a precedent with

the

0:26:560:26:58

UK that then sets internal

challenges for themselves over the

0:26:580:27:00

medium to longer term.

0:27:000:27:02

Now, what goes into

these baskets remains a

0:27:020:27:08

bit of a mystery, but of course,

there are deadlines because the next

0:27:080:27:11

round of talks is due to get under

way

0:27:110:27:14

this spring.

0:27:140:27:15

And you

can find more Brexit analysis

0:27:150:27:17

and explanation on the BBC website,

at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.

0:27:170:27:22

With me now is the Shadow

International Trade

0:27:220:27:24

Secretary, Barry Gardiner.

0:27:240:27:28

Welcome to the programme, thank you

for coming back. We were learning

0:27:280:27:36

about the different baskets, full

alignment, regulatory alignment.

0:27:360:27:38

Labour say you want to give all the

benefits and the single market so

0:27:380:27:42

presumably want to stay as much in

alignment as we do already?

What

0:27:420:27:49

we've said is that the government

have said we could have all the

0:27:490:27:52

benefits and we will hold them to

that.

To do that, we must keep most

0:27:520:27:57

of what we can in the full alignment

basket?

We want to make sure we get

0:27:570:28:03

as much of the benefits as we

currently have once we have left the

0:28:030:28:08

EU.

You can't do that and diverged.

Absolutely. That's the point.

0:28:080:28:13

Diverges from that, whether through

a trade deal with another country or

0:28:130:28:18

whether it is simply because we want

to deregulate our standards in the

0:28:180:28:23

UK is going to cause a problem with

maintaining the sort of trade we

0:28:230:28:28

have with Europe. It's going to

cause that economic bond. But we

0:28:280:28:31

want to make sure we have a Brexit

that is for jobs, for the economy

0:28:310:28:35

and that's why we see the benefits

of the single market, the benefits

0:28:350:28:40

of the customs union, and swipe we

said we wouldn't rule is off the

0:28:400:28:44

table. Whereas the government

precisely said it would. And that is

0:28:440:28:48

the red lines that Theresa May put

in place that are now causing her

0:28:480:28:51

all these other problems.

They've

caused a few problems in policy for

0:28:510:28:56

Labour as well because the closer

you want to stay to single market

0:28:560:28:59

rules, if we've loved the single

market because that is government

0:28:590:29:02

policy, more alignment would have --

if we've left. That is us accepting

0:29:020:29:08

rules we had no say in making, a

state you have described as being a

0:29:080:29:13

vassal state.

These other uses we

really have to resolve. Because you

0:29:130:29:19

are right, once we leave the EU that

means we are not a member of the

0:29:190:29:22

single market. It doesn't mean we

can't trade into the single market,

0:29:220:29:27

of course we can. We can do that in

the same way that Norway does. But

0:29:270:29:33

our economy is very different from

that of Norway. And what we need to

0:29:330:29:36

be sure about is when we are making

our rules in this country we are

0:29:360:29:41

doing it as close as possible to

maintain the trade and the economic

0:29:410:29:44

benefits we get in the European

Union.

There have been reports this

0:29:440:29:48

week that Labour is working on a

policy that would involve staying in

0:29:480:29:52

the customs union. The Robert Peston

programme on ITV...

That could not

0:29:520:29:58

be the case. I'm sorry to correct

you on a technicality. But once you

0:29:580:30:03

leave the EU you leave the treaties

and it is the treaties that create

0:30:030:30:07

the customs union. So we could not

be a member of the customs union.

0:30:070:30:16

You could be remember of a customs

union, which is what Jeremy Corbyn

0:30:160:30:20

was talking about on TV this

morning.

He was talking about the

0:30:200:30:25

transition period immediately after

leaving the EU. That has been our

0:30:250:30:29

position for many months. We were

the ones that said, in that

0:30:290:30:33

transitional period, we want the

status quo. We want to maintain

0:30:330:30:36

things that are... We want to

maintain a customs union and single

0:30:360:30:42

market during that transition.

Let's

talk about the future after the

0:30:420:30:46

transition period. Let's look at

what you said you thought were the

0:30:460:30:53

consequences.

0:30:530:30:58

consequences. Do you still agree

with that?

I was specifically

0:31:020:31:08

referring to, and if you go back on

that quote a little bit, you will

0:31:080:31:12

find we were talking about the

turkey situation, which was a

0:31:120:31:15

customs union agreement with the EU.

That would be a very bad end point

0:31:150:31:20

for us, because it would mean that

the European Union ended up doing

0:31:200:31:23

all the negotiations for trade for

the UK. We would have to open our

0:31:230:31:27

markets to any other company in --

any other country they made an

0:31:270:31:33

agreement with. But that country

would not have to liberalise its

0:31:330:31:36

markets and open itself up to our

goods and services.

The common

0:31:360:31:41

commercial policy is what governs

all of this and binds us in with

0:31:410:31:44

these trade treaties. The UK

Government say they want to leave

0:31:440:31:47

that. Is that the Labour position?

We will be...

Would you like to join

0:31:470:31:55

something similar once we are no

longer members of the EU?

I already

0:31:550:31:59

said, we believe that the benefits

of what we currently have should be

0:31:590:32:03

maintained as much as possible, and

that means that whilst we cannot

0:32:030:32:07

stay in the customs union, we should

not have a turkey style customs

0:32:070:32:12

union agreement, because that would

be an asymmetrical relationship with

0:32:120:32:15

any trading partner. What we do see

as a possibility, and it is what we

0:32:150:32:21

have not ruled out, which is to have

a new customs union with the

0:32:210:32:32

European Union, and that is

something very interesting wave

0:32:320:32:35

which in paragraph 31 of the

cross-border trade taxation bill

0:32:350:32:40

which came in on Monday from the

Government, and which we debated

0:32:400:32:44

them, they have actually put

provision for that, a new customs

0:32:440:32:49

union, where we would be an equal

member.

But you cannot possibly

0:32:490:32:53

believe that you can have the

benefits of being in a reformed

0:32:530:32:57

customs union relationship with the

EU and still have total freedom to

0:32:570:33:01

make new trade deals. You have said

you don't want anything which

0:33:010:33:05

precludes us from making independent

trade agreements with some of our

0:33:050:33:08

bigger partners.

Let's be clear

about the nexus of problems we are

0:33:080:33:13

trying to solve the run work our way

through. You have, within the

0:33:130:33:20

referendum, a clarity that people

were voting for certain political

0:33:200:33:24

issues, whether that was in terms of

immigration, regaining sovereignty,

0:33:240:33:29

or simply not paying money into

Europe. All of these were things

0:33:290:33:32

people thought they were voting for.

If you were to be in a relationship

0:33:320:33:37

in which some of those continued to

be the case, where we were rule

0:33:370:33:43

takers and not rule setters, as

Norway is at the moment, and they

0:33:430:33:52

are told they have no right to

decide what the rules are going to

0:33:520:33:55

be, that is a political problem

which many people in this country

0:33:550:33:58

would feel, what was the referendum

all about if we don't achieve that?

0:33:580:34:03

Let's...

Just let me... I don't

think it's clear, the problems we

0:34:030:34:09

are trying to solve. We want to

maintain a maximum economic benefit,

0:34:090:34:14

to get the economic benefit of the

jobs that we currently get from the

0:34:140:34:17

trading relationship we have in a

customs union and in a single market

0:34:170:34:22

with the European Union. But to do

that respecting the referendum will

0:34:220:34:26

of the people for those political

objectives.

We understand that

0:34:260:34:30

point.

Labour has to bring back the

42 purse -- the 52% under 48%.

We

0:34:300:34:39

understand need to move you on to

something else. We have heard the

0:34:390:34:45

new Tory chairman Brandon Lewis say

today that if any... He wants new

0:34:450:34:49

Tory candidates to sign up to a

respect pledge that they will

0:34:490:34:54

conduct themselves on Twitter and in

what they say in a respectful way,

0:34:540:34:57

otherwise they will be removed as

candidates.

Of course, that's right.

0:34:570:35:03

Jeremy Corbyn said that Labour

should do it too. It raises

0:35:030:35:06

questions about some Labour MPs.

Jarrod O'Mara, for example, who has

0:35:060:35:12

had the whip suspended.

An

investigation is being conducted, as

0:35:120:35:16

is appropriate, within all the

procedures of our party. Absolutely

0:35:160:35:21

right, suspended.

Because of remarks

he made about women and homophobic

0:35:210:35:25

comments. Then you look at the

Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell,

0:35:250:35:29

against whom no action has been

taken, and he has said a number of

0:35:290:35:34

things, but one of them which has

been heavily criticised is that he

0:35:340:35:39

wanted... Well, he agreed with

people who wanted to see Esther

0:35:390:35:44

McVeigh lynched. We have the audio

of this. Let's listen and then we

0:35:440:35:48

will ask you about it.

I was up in

Liverpool a fortnight ago...

0:35:480:35:54

And obviously, he used a word that

we won't be saying on TV, but is

0:36:210:36:26

that respectful language?

It is not

language I would have used. Earlier

0:36:260:36:32

today, you have been quoting remarks

that were made by the President of

0:36:320:36:38

the United States which were deeply

offensive and unacceptable.

Yes.

0:36:380:36:42

Hang on.

But this is about the

Labour Party...

And you quoted. The

0:36:420:36:48

point I am making is that he was

quoting what someone else was

0:36:480:36:53

saying, and I would not have chosen

to do that.

He was clearly quoting

0:36:530:36:58

with approval, not reporting it.

The

underlying issue which the

0:36:580:37:01

Conservatives have been trying to

cover up through all the smear on

0:37:010:37:09

John McDonnell, Esther McVeigh, who

was a Department for Work and

0:37:090:37:11

Pensions minister, and at a time

when she was in charge of work and

0:37:110:37:15

pensions as a minister, her company

had been reported for breach of

0:37:150:37:21

health and safety guidelines. She is

one of the ministers, and for that

0:37:210:37:26

reason...

Jeremy Corbyn said we

should stick to policies and use

0:37:260:37:30

respectful language. That wasn't

respect.

That's what I'm doing now,

0:37:300:37:34

and I'm trying to make the

underlying political point about

0:37:340:37:36

what's going on here. She was in

charge of a department in which she

0:37:360:37:42

was responsible for health and

safety when her own company which

0:37:420:37:45

she was a director of, a

construction company, they had been

0:37:450:37:53

suspended, their work had had to be

suspended twice within three months

0:37:530:37:57

for breach of those health and

safety guidelines, putting workers

0:37:570:38:01

at risk in her own company. She is

also somebody...

We will have to

0:38:010:38:06

leave it

0:38:060:38:07

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

in Northern Ireland.

0:38:150:38:17

After a week of bitter exchanges

over Barry McElduff's Kingsmill

0:38:170:38:21

video, Sinn Fein and the DUP have

softened the political tone -

0:38:210:38:24

but does that leave us any closer

to a breakthrough at Stormont?

0:38:240:38:28

We'll hear from the Ulster

Unionists, the SDLP and Alliance.

0:38:280:38:32

Arlene Foster tells a conference

in Killarney that Brexit doesn't

0:38:320:38:34

mean "pulling up the drawbridge".

0:38:340:38:37

And with their thoughts

on it all, my guests -

0:38:370:38:40

Felicity Huston and Chris Donnelly.

0:38:400:38:46

A change of tone between the DUP

0:38:480:38:50

and Sinn Fein on The View

on Thursday night following

0:38:500:38:52

a toxic week in politics -

but will it translate into any kind

0:38:520:38:55

of meaningful move

towards the restoration

0:38:550:38:58

of devolved government here?

0:38:580:39:00

I'm joined by the Ulster Unionist

leader, Robin Swann,

0:39:000:39:02

the SDLP's Nichola Mallon

and Stephen Farry from

0:39:020:39:04

the Alliance Party.

0:39:040:39:11

Welcome to you all.

0:39:110:39:14

Barry McElduff sparked

the controversy which raged

0:39:140:39:15

throughout the week.

0:39:150:39:17

The controversial cartoon

and reaction to it prolonged

0:39:170:39:19

the rancour, but have Sinn Fein

and the DUP now calmed the waters

0:39:190:39:22

in what they said on Thursday night?

0:39:220:39:29

Barry McElduff's actions cause huge

hurt and pain and offence to victors

0:39:290:39:37

-- victims of Kingsmills and there

was not a tough enough reaction. But

0:39:370:39:45

now, we have had one civilised

exchange. That comes on the heels of

0:39:450:39:51

12 months of hard, bitter polarising

language which, one swallow does not

0:39:510:39:57

a summer make. It is indicative of

the fact that throughout the past

0:39:570:40:01

year we have heard provoke Alli

positive words but none of it has

0:40:010:40:06

been backed up with action. We

welcome the civilised exchange but

0:40:060:40:11

we want to see that carry forward

and demonstrated by both factions of

0:40:110:40:17

the DUP and Sinn Fein.

Nobody would

want to overplay the significance.

0:40:170:40:24

It was two politicians maintain

their differences on a number of key

0:40:240:40:31

points. But does it hint at

something going on behind the

0:40:310:40:33

scenes?

I suppose the question is

whether this is reflective of the

0:40:330:40:40

entire party and the leadership. Or

was it an exchange between John and

0:40:400:40:46

Edward on a personal basis? They

have served together. Does this play

0:40:460:40:54

out in the rest of the media stances

between the two parties? We need

0:40:540:40:59

notification if there is going to be

more talks. Are they genuine about

0:40:590:41:03

that exchange?

You don't think for a

minute that John O'Dowd went on a

0:41:030:41:10

solo run on as comments on the

Kingsmills massacre?

No.

That must

0:41:100:41:16

be discussed within Sinn Fein

circles.

The reaction to Edwin, I

0:41:160:41:21

don't know if they knew, there was

speculation that it was

0:41:210:41:25

choreographed between the parties. I

am not sure if Edwin was aware just

0:41:250:41:29

how far John would actually go

because he did demonstrate quite a

0:41:290:41:35

sea change from where Sinn Fein have

been in the past. That is great, but

0:41:350:41:39

I want to see its reflected on a

wider and deeper scale.

They did not

0:41:390:41:45

suggest to me in anyway that they

were to do what they did live on the

0:41:450:41:51

programme. I got no sense of that

before the programme started. How

0:41:510:41:55

significant you think that tonal

change might be?

The rhetoric was in

0:41:550:42:04

danger of getting out of control.

Deliberately?

Deliberately. We have

0:42:040:42:10

seen some provocative actions over

the last few days and months. I hope

0:42:100:42:15

they realise that cannot continue.

In itself, that does not indicate a

0:42:150:42:21

change of direction. The gaps on the

issues holding back row Gres are

0:42:210:42:25

narrow but there are massive gaps in

terms of trust and respect between

0:42:250:42:29

particularly those two main parties.

And also, Northern Ireland has been

0:42:290:42:36

pulled apart because of the

polarisation and the effects of

0:42:360:42:39

Brexit. I am not clear that either

party has a clear sense of purpose

0:42:390:42:47

around and independent Northern

Ireland. Both parties seem to be

0:42:470:42:53

playing it both ways. The DUP

particularly. They are talking about

0:42:530:42:57

the onset of direct rule, which will

be a disaster for more than Ireland.

0:42:570:43:02

And Sinn Fein are looking to

potential opportunities in. Both

0:43:020:43:06

parties need to send a signal that

they are serious about it working.

0:43:060:43:11

Does it also bring low just -- bring

home just how low our politics have

0:43:110:43:17

fallen that one civilised exchange

of knowledge in heart that was

0:43:170:43:22

caused me is headline news? That was

the big message from me on Thursday

0:43:220:43:29

night.

A lot of people have made

that point, why is that such a big

0:43:290:43:33

deal? But that is the politics of

Northern Ireland.

That is my point,

0:43:330:43:38

let's see if it is replicated on

Monday and let's see the difference

0:43:380:43:41

reflected by the DUP MPs. Even with

what Arlene Foster was saying in

0:43:410:43:50

Killarney about Brexit, because

there are different messages coming

0:43:500:43:54

from that party. Sinn Fein in

reaction in Northern Ireland and the

0:43:540:44:03

reaction in the Republic of Ireland,

there was a difference. There is a

0:44:030:44:09

differentiation in both parties.

Many people believe that the

0:44:090:44:15

differences between the two main

parties are not as great as some

0:44:150:44:19

people imagine them to be but on

Thursday night, John O'Dowd said

0:44:190:44:25

that our equality agenda remains

immovable. That is not something we

0:44:250:44:30

are prepared to compromise on. And

Edwin Poots said at the end of the

0:44:300:44:34

interview, if there is going to be

some kind of deal, it will involve

0:44:340:44:37

pain on all sides and we have Mason

-- and we may have some difficulty

0:44:370:44:44

in selling this. What does that say

about their preparedness to make a

0:44:440:44:49

compromise which will be inevitable

if a delisting the done?

We heard

0:44:490:44:54

John O'Dowd say we will compromise

on a compromise. But we heard the

0:44:540:44:58

leader of Sinn Fein saying that we

have stretched ourselves for the

0:44:580:45:02

common good. We have seen the last

year Sinn Fein deriding the SDLP. We

0:45:020:45:09

know that whatever happens, because

of a divided society, that

0:45:090:45:13

accommodation of differences in

compromise will have to be the

0:45:130:45:17

answer. You have to come back to

that reality. We are getting

0:45:170:45:22

contradictory messages from both

Sinn Fein and the DUP. That was just

0:45:220:45:27

one example. And the difficulty is

that there has been a lack of

0:45:270:45:31

openness around the detailed

positions. Around the Bill of

0:45:310:45:34

Rights, I only hear slogans and

sound bites. I want to hear what is

0:45:340:45:39

in the proposed bill of Rights. Does

it cover economic and social rights?

0:45:390:45:44

We don't know. We have heard that

they have both compromise, but let

0:45:440:45:48

the public see who have stretched

themselves. Let the public see who

0:45:480:45:55

has been intransigent. For some

reason, both parties continue to

0:45:550:45:59

refuse that. You have to ask why. We

have come to the point when

0:45:590:46:05

rhetoric, we have heard it and we

won't know what you have been doing

0:46:050:46:09

in past year.

The representatives of

those two parties won what -- would

0:46:090:46:15

not want you all the members of the

public to see those details if there

0:46:150:46:20

is a possibility of further final

compromises needing to be made. You

0:46:200:46:24

wouldn't want to be giving away your

almost final hand.

But we don't have

0:46:240:46:36

time. We have tried this 2-party

browsers in the last few months.

But

0:46:360:46:42

the major difficulty is between the

F -- the DUP and Sinn Fein.

An

0:46:420:46:51

independent mediator would provide a

different set of eyes and a

0:46:510:46:54

different dynamic to that process.

And they could push and pull both

0:46:540:46:58

parties towards that kind of

compromise that they are incapable

0:46:580:47:02

of by themselves. And a party -- a

multiparty format would help. We

0:47:020:47:13

would bring a different set of eyes

to the table that would enable us to

0:47:130:47:17

find those compromises that those

parties by themselves cannot.

0:47:170:47:29

You've spoken to the

Sexretary of State.

0:47:290:47:31

What did she say?

0:47:310:47:35

Is there any hint when. ?

We met

when she was 36 hours into the job.

0:47:350:47:49

-- secretary of state. She's picking

up a process for the past year. We

0:47:490:47:56

are unaware of how much the NISO are

aware of what has happened between

0:47:560:48:01

the DUP and Sinn Fein. It is a big

job of work. She doesn't have a long

0:48:010:48:09

time to do it because the

credibility of politics and

0:48:090:48:13

politicians in Northern Ireland is

at an all-time low and we need a

0:48:130:48:16

process that starts to build some

sort of re-engagement on the ground

0:48:160:48:20

between politicians and the public.

We need to deliver on the key

0:48:200:48:26

issues. Our health services

collapsing and as politicians, we

0:48:260:48:32

need to be on the coal face and

tackle solutions.

That is not unique

0:48:320:48:39

to Northern Ireland, there are

similar problems across the water in

0:48:390:48:41

GB and also in the Republic.

And we

needed ministers who can rearrange

0:48:410:48:47

budgets and moved goalposts and

deliver. At this moment, we have

0:48:470:48:51

nothing.

Do you think that Karen

Bradley Komla is a different style

0:48:510:48:57

from James Brokenshire, will bring

fresh impetus to the process? Do you

0:48:570:49:01

think she might break the logjam?

It's difficult to know at this

0:49:010:49:06

stage. When we met with her, we were

clear that you need to have

0:49:060:49:11

inclusive talks, independents in

terms of the chair and let's see

0:49:110:49:14

what progress is made so that we can

all try to build on that.

De

0:49:140:49:18

Giovanni you as a person?

She was

very much in listening mode in the

0:49:180:49:24

short meeting and she came across

very personable. But our messages

0:49:240:49:28

were consistent and ferment

immensely this comes down to the

0:49:280:49:32

parties of Northern Ireland working

with the two governments. We're

0:49:320:49:36

going to act and put a local gun in

place? That is the challenge for all

0:49:360:49:41

of us.

0:49:410:49:47

Owen Smith, the Shadow Secretary

of State, said the anniversary

0:49:480:49:50

of the Good Friday Agreement

in April should be the deadline.

0:49:500:49:57

For this process. Does this make

sense?

Identity we can afford to

0:49:570:50:03

wait that long. Obviously it is the

20th anniversary this year and some

0:50:030:50:07

people are writing it off. But we

have to accept that we have seen

0:50:070:50:12

spectacular progress over the last

20 years and we have to bank all of

0:50:120:50:16

that in terms of the change of

relationships across these islands.

0:50:160:50:19

We have to reform these this

agreement -- the agreement and we

0:50:190:50:26

can't stand still. But from the

point of finance, January, early

0:50:260:50:35

February is the effective deadline

in terms of having a budget in

0:50:350:50:38

place. We need a shareable resources

efficiently in Northern Ireland and

0:50:380:50:45

if not, we will be squandering

money. We cannot afford to do that.

0:50:450:50:48

So many things require reform and

our economy is stagnating.

0:50:480:50:56

Thank you all.

0:50:560:50:57

Let's hear what my guests

of the day make of that.

0:50:570:51:00

I'm joined by Chris Donnelly

and Felicity Huston.

0:51:000:51:07

Felicity, are you more positive now

than you might have been early

0:51:070:51:11

evening on Thursday?

I agree with

Nichola Mallon, one swallow does not

0:51:110:51:17

a summer make. When Martin

McGuinness mated comments about

0:51:170:51:21

traitors to island killing PSNI

officers, when Arlene went to Martin

0:51:210:51:26

McGuinness's funeral and shook

hands, all this is great, things

0:51:260:51:30

might be starting to change. But

I've seem to many of these moments

0:51:300:51:36

all over the years. The other thing

is, with the McElduff debacle, if

0:51:360:51:44

you scrape back the layers in

Northern Ireland, you don't have to

0:51:440:51:48

go deep to find out how bitter and

nasty and divided we still are.

0:51:480:51:52

Chris, a bad week last week,

everybody agreed, but was it a bit

0:51:520:51:56

of redemption towards the end?

I

think so, and it became quite

0:51:560:52:02

positive. The significance of last

week, for the first time in over a

0:52:020:52:08

year, Sinn Fein were under pressure

and on the defensive. That was the

0:52:080:52:15

first time under Michelle O'Neill

that that has happened. Alan

0:52:150:52:21

McBride, the victim campaigner who

lost his wife, he said it was either

0:52:210:52:28

beyond wicked or just stupid. And

the response Sinn Fein initially was

0:52:280:52:32

very forthright and people believed

on the back of that that Barry

0:52:320:52:38

McElduff would be expelled. Then we

had Michelle O'Neill speaking later

0:52:380:52:42

on and announcing that he would be

suspended for a period of months.

0:52:420:52:46

That was more consistent with the

position that Sinn Fein had taken,

0:52:460:52:52

that it was more of a coincidence

rather than an insult. Then the

0:52:520:52:58

revelation came out that he was

still be allowed to use the party

0:52:580:53:00

offices. It put out a mixed message

that was heaping pressure on the

0:53:000:53:04

party. It took John O'Dowd's

intervention, which I were describe

0:53:040:53:10

as decisive, to draw a line under

the incident. The significance of

0:53:100:53:16

this is that it took John O'Dowd and

Michelle O'Neill remains untested as

0:53:160:53:21

leader. This will be something that

she will take out of this, that

0:53:210:53:25

there will have to be more decisive

and effectively to ship from her

0:53:250:53:29

going forward.

Do you think that

Barry McElduff should have had a

0:53:290:53:32

tougher punishment imposed by the

Sinn Fein leadership?

Yes, I do. I

0:53:320:53:37

don't know what he thought he was

act. When I saw it, I thought it was

0:53:370:53:42

bizarre and tactless.

Do you think

beyond wicked or just you would?

I

0:53:420:53:49

would say wicked. Because it does

not seem to be the only incident

0:53:490:53:52

about victims of Kingsmills massacre

being tortured with bread and toast.

0:53:520:54:00

I think you should have been sacked

from the party. That is easy for me

0:54:000:54:06

to say. Sinn Fein is a disciplined

party, heavily regulated. But if

0:54:060:54:10

they had at least put him out for

six months and taken his salary off

0:54:100:54:15

him, people might have thought there

was some sort of genuine recognition

0:54:150:54:18

of what he had done, whether full or

navel. But three months on full

0:54:180:54:24

pay,?

0:54:240:54:28

Thanks both.

0:54:280:54:29

Meantime, the DUP leader,

Arlene Foster, told a conference

0:54:290:54:31

in Killarney this weekend that

Brexit isn't about "pulling up

0:54:310:54:33

the drawbridge", as she put it.

0:54:330:54:37

In her speech, she likened

Northern Ireland and the Republic

0:54:370:54:39

to a pair of semi-detached houses,

similar on the outside

0:54:390:54:42

but with different interiors.

0:54:420:54:43

As Shane Harrison now reports

from Kerry, the DUP leader's

0:54:430:54:45

presence comes after a period

of strained relations.

0:54:450:54:53

Killarney on a wet weekend. Where

better to ponder the choppy waters

0:54:530:54:57

of Brexit and contemplate what,

beyond the mist of uncertainty,

0:54:570:55:04

maybe the future relationships on

the island and between the UK and be

0:55:040:55:07

you. Arlene Foster came to this

hotel in a conciliatory mood after

0:55:070:55:14

last month's frostiness over the UK

and EU divorce talks that eventually

0:55:140:55:19

resulted in a kind of deal on

continuing regulatory alignment

0:55:190:55:24

between North and South and no

border at the Irish Sea. Not a time

0:55:240:55:28

for pulling up the Irish drawbridge,

she told the Brexit conference.

I

0:55:280:55:34

know we are rivals in some respects,

but in so many ways, successful one

0:55:340:55:39

of us is successful the other. And

as we chart a new future, it is not

0:55:390:55:45

in our interest to see the Republic

of Ireland do anything other than

0:55:450:55:49

prosper.

At the conference, the

leader of Fianna Fail, the

0:55:490:55:55

Republic's main opposition party,

called for the restoration of the

0:55:550:56:00

Northern Ireland political

institutions.

The dangers of Brexit

0:56:000:56:04

and the challenges make it

inexcusable that we do not have an

0:56:040:56:07

Executive in Northern Ireland. They

should make a commitment to the

0:56:070:56:11

restoration of the Executive.

Because of Brexit, Fianna Fail

0:56:110:56:16

believes that Northern Ireland

should be designated a special

0:56:160:56:19

economic zone. The DUP isn't

automatically rule it out.

I don't

0:56:190:56:27

think it's right to take anything

out of touch until one has seen the

0:56:270:56:29

details and I will have a look at

them because it would be wrong, as

0:56:290:56:34

happened sometimes in Northern

Ireland, that you just getting knee

0:56:340:56:36

jerk reaction.

In her rush to return

north, Arlene Foster did not get a

0:56:360:56:43

chance to enjoy a ride on this

famous carriage. But she was paid a

0:56:430:56:50

kind of compliment.

I think Arlene

showed political courage in making

0:56:500:56:56

it clear that she needed the

relationships. But I disagree with

0:56:560:57:01

her analysis of Brexit and so do the

people of Northern Ireland, because

0:57:010:57:05

they wanted to stay. That is not --

her views on those of the majority

0:57:050:57:11

of people in Northern Ireland.

So

what direction will Brexit take? The

0:57:110:57:16

regular three alignment and piracy

agreement were part of the scenario,

0:57:160:57:21

if there is no ultimate Brexit deal.

A former senior press officer at

0:57:210:57:26

Downing Street says, all is still to

play for.

The language around

0:57:260:57:30

regulatory alignment and batted the

backstop option, has to be defined

0:57:300:57:36

in legal terms specifically. So the

next few months will be fascinating

0:57:360:57:39

and difficult.

This week's

conference on the shores of the lake

0:57:390:57:48

heard that agreement is possible but

unlikely. It should become clearer

0:57:480:57:56

in the possible months.

0:57:560:57:58

Shane Harrison reporting.

0:57:580:57:59

We'll have a final thought

from my studio guests in a moment,

0:57:590:58:02

but first, let's take a look back

at the political week in 60 seconds

0:58:020:58:05

- with Gareth Gordon.

0:58:050:58:09

One image set the tone for the week.

It's not just a matter of Barry

0:58:090:58:16

McElduff's apology, it's a matter of

the leadership.

Barry McElduff

0:58:160:58:21

apologise for his actions.

A

political cartoon kept the story in

0:58:210:58:30

the headlines. But as the week moved

on, a more considered view tone

0:58:300:58:35

moved on.

It is shameful what

happened on the roadside and as a

0:58:350:58:40

Republican, I'm shamed by it.

I

welcome what was said and I would

0:58:400:58:46

say that what happened to John's

family was wrong as well.

The

0:58:460:58:53

Secretary of State resigned because

of illness.

I need time and space to

0:58:530:58:56

focus on surgery and recovery.

And

an unclear time ahead.

I know there

0:58:560:59:04

are challenges but I'm determined we

will find a way through those

0:59:040:59:08

challenges. We need to deliver

devolved government.

0:59:080:59:12

Gareth Gordon - and let's speak

to Felicity and Chris again.

0:59:150:59:20

Arlene Foster's comments

in Killarney - not ruling out NI

0:59:200:59:23

being designated a Special Economic

Zone.

0:59:230:59:30

Many people saying it was a

generally constructive contribution

0:59:300:59:33

after a period of strained

relations.

The sentiment was not

0:59:330:59:39

necessarily new but the tone was.

2017 was a polarising year not just

0:59:390:59:44

locally but between the British and

I is governments with the first

0:59:440:59:48

round of Brexit negotiations. There

is recognition on all sides that if

0:59:480:59:53

we are going to get demolition up

and running, some of the poison

0:59:530:59:57

needs to be drawn out of our system

and there was a recognition also by

0:59:571:00:01

both Arlene Foster and Michelle

O'Neill that the choreography has to

1:00:011:00:06

be right. Applicants may reference

to that. The grassroots need to be

1:00:061:00:13

heard. -- Edwin boots made

reference.

Let's pick up on that

1:00:131:00:19

point. Do you think the new

Secretary of State, Karen Bradley,

1:00:191:00:27

can get traction and get the process

back on track if that is what is

1:00:271:00:30

wanted?

I'm not optimistic and I

didn't see much dynamism when she

1:00:301:00:36

was Secretary of State for culture

media and the arts, and she kept

1:00:361:00:41

pushing the Murdoch problem into

touch and leaving it to somebody

1:00:411:00:43

else. We want to ask whether there

are any new ideas in the NIO. It

1:00:431:00:51

will come from them. They have the

same special adviser that they have

1:00:511:00:55

had since Peter Brooks's day. We

need new people from that side, as

1:00:551:01:00

well.

Chris?

One of the criticisms

of James Brokenshire was that he

1:01:001:01:09

could never get a credible

negotiation process going. Karen

1:01:091:01:12

Bradley needs to learn from that.

But the structures at the top of the

1:01:121:01:16

party need to know what they are

going into so that the pieces are

1:01:161:01:20

addressed. That is more portable

1:01:201:01:21

that doesn't mean we shouldn't

return to it.

1:01:211:01:22

addressed. That is more portable

return to it.

I have to stop

1:01:221:01:23

return to it.

I have to stop you

all.

1:01:231:01:24

That's all we have time for.

1:01:241:01:24

My thanks to Rupa to Bob

and to Luke and with that,

1:01:241:01:27

it's back to Sarah.

1:01:271:01:35

Earlier we were talking about

comments made by John McDonnell

1:01:401:01:45

about Esther McVeigh. The Labour

Party had been in touch to say that

1:01:451:01:50

Mr McDonnell did not quote with

approval, and that comments made in

1:01:501:01:58

Parliament confirm that. We have

been contacted also by the office of

1:01:581:02:06

Kier Starmer, previously the

Director of Public Prosecutions,

1:02:061:02:08

saying he had nothing to do with the

decision about John Worboys, and we

1:02:081:02:11

are also happy to make that crystal

clear. On to other news...

1:02:111:02:17

Ukip has suspended the girlfriend

of the party leader, Henry Bolton,

1:02:171:02:19

after reports that she made racist

remarks about Prince Harry's

1:02:191:02:22

fiancee Meghan Markle.

1:02:221:02:23

In text messages to a friend,

Jo Marney described black people

1:02:231:02:25

as "ugly" and said "her seed"

would "taint our royal family".

1:02:251:02:28

Ms Marney has apologised,

and said that comments had been

1:02:281:02:30

taken out of context.

1:02:301:02:31

Paul Oakden, Ukip's party chairman,

joins us from Birmingham.

1:02:311:02:39

Can Henry Bolton carry on as leader

after this?

I think it is very clear

1:02:431:02:47

that Henry is increasingly in a

position where he has some difficult

1:02:471:02:52

decisions to make. He knows that. He

and I have spoken regularly over the

1:02:521:02:56

weekend, as recently as this

morning. I know he is focused on

1:02:561:03:01

those decisions today. He intends on

making those decisions today, and

1:03:011:03:04

I'm sure that whatever he does will

be in the best interests of the

1:03:041:03:07

party.

It sounds like you expect him

to resign by the end of the day.

Not

1:03:071:03:13

at all. He is in a situation that he

would rather not be in, which he

1:03:131:03:18

acknowledges, but I believe he has

the party's best interests at heart

1:03:181:03:21

and that is what he will focus on.

Would the party's best interests be

1:03:211:03:30

served by him standing down as

leader?

It would be best served by

1:03:301:03:33

the membership having the

opportunity to have their say. Henry

1:03:331:03:38

acknowledges there has been an error

in judgment, and it is now for the

1:03:381:03:41

party membership and ruling body to

make a determination on whether they

1:03:411:03:45

feel Henry is the best person to

lead them into what will be an

1:03:451:03:48

incredibly crucial 12 months for

Brexit. The thing that matters

1:03:481:03:51

beyond Ukip and everything else.

If

he doesn't decide by the end of the

1:03:511:03:56

day that he will stand down, when

will the NEC meet?

A week today. I

1:03:561:04:05

want to be clear - Henry is not

deciding whether he will or won't

1:04:051:04:10

resign today. He's deciding what he

can do to help remedy this

1:04:101:04:14

situation. As leader, he will play

the leading role in making this

1:04:141:04:19

better, clearly needs made better,

and a lot of people take their lead

1:04:191:04:22

from him. The party is represented

by its governing body, which will

1:04:221:04:28

meet a week today. If he is still

the leader Robbie today, they will

1:04:281:04:31

meet at that point and collectively

make a decision about what to do

1:04:311:04:35

going forward.

It doesn't sound like

he has your support.

Far from it. My

1:04:351:04:41

job is to make sure that our

thousands of members, who joined not

1:04:411:04:49

because of the leader's Private life

but because of Brexit, and we will

1:04:491:04:55

not deliver Brexit on our own. Now

that Tony Blair is running around

1:04:551:05:03

with Lord Adonis and Nick Clegg

trying to ride roughshod over

1:05:031:05:07

democracy, we need a grand coalition

of all those groups that fought on

1:05:071:05:12

the League side to come together to

see the journey home. That is the

1:05:121:05:18

priority.

It is a huge distraction

if you're leader is having to fend

1:05:181:05:22

off the stories about his private

life.

It is true that we need to be

1:05:221:05:28

behind our leader 100% in taking

that battle forward. That is

1:05:281:05:32

absolutely key. Whether or not the

party decides it is willing to give

1:05:321:05:35

that support to Henry is for the

party decide. My role as German as

1:05:351:05:40

to make sure they have the ability

to voice their opinion. I have every

1:05:401:05:46

confidence that our national

1:05:461:05:51

executive committee will do what is

in the interests of the party, and I

1:05:581:06:01

have every confidence that that is

what our leader will seek to do.

1:06:011:06:03

Whatever the situation, I am

confident that a week tomorrow, the

1:06:031:06:05

party will be in fine form to take

that to the Remain establishment.

1:06:051:06:08

Thanks for joining us.

1:06:081:06:09

Let's pick up on that with the

panel. What do you think the

1:06:091:06:12

prospects are for the Ukip leader?

Based on that, it has Monty Python

1:06:121:06:18

moment. He will do what is best for

the party, but that best... This is

1:06:181:06:24

symptomatic of a wider crisis for

Ukip. I've lost count of the number

1:06:241:06:28

of leaders they've had.

Five in 18

months.

Three of them were Nigel

1:06:281:06:36

Farage!

He will probably be back

again. They were a powerful vessel

1:06:361:06:40

for delivering that referendum, but

it is a lesson for people wanting to

1:06:401:06:44

start political parties - it was a

fragile vessel. The fragility is are

1:06:441:06:49

now being exposed in this impossible

nightmare they have. They can't even

1:06:491:06:55

find a credible leader. They have

not resigned over principles, they

1:06:551:06:59

have resigned in bizarre

circumstances, time and again.

One

1:06:591:07:08

of them only lasted days.

And that

is not bad going on the basis of

1:07:081:07:11

what could happen in the future. It

shows that it is difficult to set up

1:07:111:07:16

a credible, serious political party.

And they have become incredible.

On

1:07:161:07:21

a more serious note, Paul Oakton was

saying that it is more important

1:07:211:07:24

than ever to have people are giving

the Ukip case as we go through the

1:07:241:07:28

process of Brexit. As a party, can

they do that? Or do people think

1:07:281:07:33

that

1:07:331:07:38

that with the referendum done and

dusted, Ukip are finished?

We have

1:07:391:07:41

seen that in their election results

since. He was a credible leader, a

1:07:411:07:45

background in the police, working in

the EU, the Armed Forces. I don't

1:07:451:07:51

want to live in Soviet Russia or

modern-day North Korea where people

1:07:511:07:55

have guilt by association. He hasn't

made these racist remarks.

She has

1:07:551:08:00

been suspended from the partly, --

the party, she is his partner.

They

1:08:001:08:09

are not taken out of context, they

are outrageous, no question at all,

1:08:091:08:14

racist, disgusting remarks, and no

question that she should be out of

1:08:141:08:18

the party membership. I would say

that his misjudgement in being a

1:08:181:08:22

middle-aged man running off with a

glamour model half his age is the

1:08:221:08:25

embarrassment for him. If he wants

to be in a relationship with someone

1:08:251:08:32

with those vile views, it is a

question of his judgment. But let's

1:08:321:08:36

not confuse the person who committed

the offence. The key thing is, Ukip

1:08:361:08:45

had a role, and Nigel Farage in my

view is one of the most influential

1:08:451:08:52

politicians of the 21st century in

terms of how he has changed

1:08:521:08:55

politics. Part of that effectively

meant that Ukip had no role. They

1:08:551:08:58

believe they have an important role,

because they don't believe Theresa

1:08:581:09:03

May is delivering the Brexit that

many people like me actually voted

1:09:031:09:06

for. I would like to keep them on

the back burner as a credible party

1:09:061:09:13

if and when they are needed to like

the touch paper beneath the stories.

1:09:131:09:17

To hold Theresa May's fee to the

fire. Nigel Farage sprang back into

1:09:171:09:23

the news today, possibly because he

was looking for increased relevance

1:09:231:09:26

to get himself back in the

headlines, saying that he now agrees

1:09:261:09:30

with Nick Clegg and Tony Blair that

there might have to be a second

1:09:301:09:34

referendum. Explain that, Tom.

He

said it on Friday morning, sorry,

1:09:341:09:40

Thursday morning, and now he has

said it again. He has recanted a

1:09:401:09:44

bit, saying that it is not that he

wants one, but it is back on the

1:09:441:09:50

front page of the Observer,

repeating the message. I think there

1:09:501:09:54

are now will be one. Do you think he

could possibly be sniffing out a job

1:09:541:09:58

vacancy coming up any time soon? My

reading of your incisive interview

1:09:581:10:03

with Paul Oakton was that we

1:10:031:10:09

should -- was that he will be handed

a revolver, possibly this afternoon.

1:10:171:10:22

If Nigel Farage came back, it could

be his third or fourth term?

He

1:10:221:10:30

could easily come back. He goes on

TV programmes and gives interviews,

1:10:301:10:37

and you can see our role for him.

The vacancy is about to come up. It

1:10:371:10:41

rather begins to feel like a fait

accompli.

The EU withdrawal bill is

1:10:411:10:49

back in the Commons this week -

trouble for the Government over what

1:10:491:10:52

will happen this week?

At certain

moments, there will be, as there was

1:10:521:10:58

in December, moments of potential

drama, inevitably, because they

1:10:581:11:02

haven't always got a guaranteed

majority. I suspect that defeats

1:11:021:11:08

like we saw with the Dominic grieve

amendment won't happen very often,

1:11:081:11:12

but there will be, as with the rest

of this Brexit sequence, moments of

1:11:121:11:17

heightened drama where it is not at

all clear what is going to happen

1:11:171:11:20

and whether she can get what she

wants through, Theresa May. I think

1:11:201:11:24

the referendum thing is interesting.

There's no reason why the 2016 one

1:11:241:11:28

should be seen as a theological

thing that cannot be touched,

1:11:281:11:33

because the 2016 one showed that you

can have second referendums. It was

1:11:331:11:37

a second one.

Let's have another one

in 40- odd years.

Very briefly,

1:11:371:11:45

Julia, are you disappointed that

Donald Trump is not coming to London

1:11:451:11:49

to open the embassy?

I hold no torch

for Donald Trump. He wants us to be

1:11:491:11:53

lining the roots and way being --

waving our little flags. He wants to

1:11:531:12:00

meet the corgis. I think we should

be friendly with the leaders of

1:12:001:12:06

major global powers who are our

allies in trade and militarily. It

1:12:061:12:12

would be foolish to upset that

because we don't like the current

1:12:121:12:16

incumbent. What might we might be

looking for a trade deal with them

1:12:161:12:19

as well. Theresa May might be

relieved. Oh God, yes!

Someone

1:12:191:12:25

senior in the Government said to me

on Friday, using similar words to

1:12:251:12:28

Donald Trump, it would be an capital

at show if he came, and the same if

1:12:281:12:34

he didn't. -- it would be an S show.

No one made remarks about President

1:12:341:12:49

Macron or Angela Merkel. If we

accept the Chinese president, a

1:12:491:12:54

totalitarian who has his political

opponents murdered, I think we can

1:12:541:12:57

cope with Donald Trump, as hideous

and horrible and racist and

1:12:571:13:00

misogynistic as he is.

Strange that

he has

1:13:001:13:09

he has in -- that he hasn't come

given the respect shall

1:13:101:13:13

relationship.

For our defence and

security relationships, we need

1:13:131:13:18

this.

We have to leave it there.

1:13:181:13:20

That's all for today.

1:13:201:13:21

Join me again next Sunday at 11

here on BBC One XXXXX.

1:13:211:13:25

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:251:13:26

-- join me again next Sunday at 11

here on BBC One.

1:13:321:13:40

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