14/07/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


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nights of rioting in northern Belfast, the Orange Order are


branded Reckless, the Secretary of State answers questions on the way


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2217 seconds


Northern Ireland. Two nights of rioting and North Belfast, hundreds


of police drafted in from Britain, the Orange Order branded reckless by


the Chief Constable and the Parades Commission condemned again by the


Unionists. Welcome to summertime in Belfast. We will give from Theresa


Villiers, the Secretary of State, in a moment. The Progressive Unionists


also give us the analysis of events. We are joined by two of our


leading political journalist, Liam Clarke and Sam McBride.


A clean-up is underway yet again after a second night of rioting and


North Belfast. Trouble started on Friday evening after police enforced


a ruling banning a return parade for the area around Ardoyne shops.


Police said 32 of their officers were injured in the violence and DUP


MP Nigel Dodds was taken to hospital unconscious after being hit by a


missile thrown by Wallace. Officers used baton rounds and what can to


contain the violence. Last night trouble flared again with petrol


bombs thrown at police lines at it was less severe than Vegas nights.


The Secretary of State Theresa Villiers joins me now. Who is


responsible for this violence? people who are responsible are those


throwing petrol bombs. Everyone must reflect on how we can all encourage


cam in this situation. It is shameful the violence that we have


seen on the streets of Belfast. It undermines much of the progress that


we were able to demonstrate at the G8 with a modern and forward-looking


Northern Ireland in which a huge amount had been achieved. This


undermines Northern Ireland's ability to compete in the world for


jobs and investment and it is essential that stops. The Chief


Constable was clear in his comments that the Orange Order brought people


out on the disputes to protest without a plan or any way of


controlling them and he says that was reckless, do you agree? I think


he is correct. It is important for the Orange Order to reflect on their


role. I know they are angry and I understand their anger about the


Parades Commission determination, but bringing many people out onto


the streets to protest when the situation was as tense as it was,


without the kind of plan that the Chief Constable has talked about, I


think that was part of the problem, it is part of the cause of the


disturbances we have seen. Mark Baggott says the Orange Order must


reflect on the leadership it gave, do you agree with that? Yes, I do


think they must reflect on that. It is important for all of us in


Northern Ireland's political leadership, the Orange Order, for us


to call for these issues to be resolved peacefully. The Orange


Order did the right thing is starting to engage with residents,


something they had not previously done. They were correctly praised


for that. I hope that when things have calmed down that that local


dialogue can continue, it is the best way to find a long-term


solution. No one is defending the British culture, no one is defending


Unionism by throwing bricks at police officers, this is undermining


the very cause that the Orange Order seeks to support if we see this


violence continue. It is pretty obvious that there is a section of


our community who feel disenfranchised, marginalised and


that no one is listening to their concerns and their anger is directed


at the Parades Commission and specifically it -- its ruling


regarding Friday 's parade. Did the Parades Commission get it correct?


They are an Independent body for a good reason. When these decisions


were taken by the police and the Secretary of State, the situation


tended to be even more difficult. There has been progress and there


are many thousands of rates that take place in a peaceful way in


Northern Ireland. The way forward is for calm on the streets over the


next few days and a local dialogue for progress on the working group


that they get the First Minister rightfully set up to look at


long-term reform. I understand that you say it is not helpful to comment


on individual determinations, but with respect, it is dangerous for


you to equivocate, because the Secretary of State appoints the


commission and you hold the Commission to account. If you do not


see that the determination on Friday was right, people will read that as


you not giving your full backing to the commission and suggesting the


decision was wrong. Can you clear that up? I do not think they will


read it in that way. The Parades Commission as independent for a good


reason and that is why their decisions are copied. -- obeyed.


Does the Parades Commission have your backing? It does. Violence is


not inevitable. Some have said it was inevitable. It is not


inevitable. Even a controversial decision, this decision did provoke


concern from part of the community, but that does not justify or make


violence inevitable. The are other ways to express concern about


decisions like this, but there are far better ways to get a solution I


talking to people, having a local dialogue and following the example


set by the apprentice boys of Derry who have made real progress because


they talked to the residents who were affected. To be clear, you will


not say one way or another whether this issue has been resolved


directly by the Parades Commission? I do not comment on their decisions


directly. The Parades Commission have my full confidence and anyone


who seeks to disobey their determination is risking the kind of


scenes we have seen over the last few nights and risking criminal


convictions. What is your understanding within the heart of


the longest community at that ruling on Friday? What steps have you taken


in the last 48 hours to try to have a better understanding of what it is


that has so upset that community resulting in the violence we have


seen? Before and after the determination I sought out many


conversations with people with differing views on this


determination. In fact, over the last few months I have had a


succession of meetings with residents, MLAs and ministers to


listen to their views and to seek a way forward. At all those


discussions have arched a peaceful approach, a non-violent approach,


respect for the rule of law and looking for a local dialogue to


resolve these issues in the future. Have you spoken to Nigel Dodds who


was injured and taken to hospital? have tried to get hold of him but I


have not been able to speak to him yet since Friday night, obviously


the days in the run-up to Friday I had spoken to him. Very quickly,


what is the next move in the days ahead? The Assembly on Tuesday will


debate this issue. I do not know if that is a good or a bad thing, but


many will look to you and other senior politicians to dealers out of


this difficulty. What must happen now? Strong support for the police,


they did a brilliant job. They put their own personal safety at risk.


They have upheld the rule of law. They have done an excellent job and


we should have a unanimous reaction from Northern Ireland's little


leadership supporting them but calling for the Parades Commission


determination to be respected. you for joining us.


Let US Open the discussion to the Belfast Telegraph's Liam Clarke and


Sam McBride from the News Letter. Liam Clarke, what are you make of


what the Secretary of State has had to say about what has unfolded in


the past 48 hours? What the secretary of state said was what you


would X X hard to say. She supports legal institutions and the rule of


law, the Parades Commission which is legally appointed by the police and


calling for calm. There is no sign of the wobble that some of the DUP


and the Orange Order wanted where she would intervene and overturn the


determination. That is not good to happen. We must take it from there.


Is it enough, Sam McBride, as the Secretary of State has done to stay


outside the debate about whether or not the original determination by


the Parades Commission was the correct one or the wrong one?


are serious questions over the two determination because it gave the


idea that the violence last year from dissident republicans was


rewarded in terms of the march being stopped. They went out of their way


to get buses and all sorts of things last year, it was a strange


determination. I do not think it is the place for the secretary of state


to step in however, otherwise every single time in every part of


Northern Ireland when there is a decision that one site does not like


it would come down to the secretary of state. Lots of people would love


to see the Parades Commission gone but even those people recognise you


must have a body to do this. What is your sense of how things will unfold


from a political sense, Liam, and the next 24 hours? I do not know


whether Tuesday will help or hinder progress, but whether we like it or


not MLAs will gather again and talk about the determination itself and


the event that followed. Clearly there is a rethink within unionism.


I understand both parties were asked to come onto this programme and did


not. Perhaps it is a good thing to take some time out because a lot


will depend what is said and the assembler on Tuesday. It could be a


time to articulate and and it could be an opportunity to calm things


down. The motion that the DUP put it is very interesting. They have


decided that that they have described the Parades Commission


decision as illogical. We will come back and hear more from both of you


later in the programme. Liam, we did ask the Ulster Unionists, the DUP


and the Orange Order to join us but no one from those organisations was


able to be here. Thank you both for the moment.


There has been criticism of the violence and the Orange Order's call


for protest against the Parades Commission ruling. They have since


called for protest to be suspended but not before the Chief Constable


displayed their actions as reckless. Some of the leadership within the


Orange Order must reflect upon whether they provided the


responsible leadership asked for by myself and by the party leaders.


Some of the language was emotive and having called thousands of people to


protest they had no plan and no control. Rather than being


responsible, I think the word for that is reckless. We were very clear


from day one that our overriding concerns for public safety, crowd


safety, and the interests of thousands of people on the street,


and with hot weather, with alcohol flowing freely and with a volatile


situation with passions raised, not to have a plan, not to have the


control, compromised the safety of many people. We were attacked by


fireworks, missiles, masonry, catapults. By laser pens by a whole


range of weapons. That is what led to the 32 injuries. It would be


wrong in any way to see those injuries and that the Rogers attack


on the police line was some sort of demonstration of righteous anger, it


was nothing but thuggery on a grand scale. Joining me now are the North


Belfast Sinn Fein MLA Gerry Kelly and the East Belfast MP PUP


councillor John Kyle. We just heard from the assistant chief constable


Will Kerr. He said this was not righteous anger, it was thuggery on


a grand scale. Do you agree with them? No, I do not. I think that the


violence was highly regrettable. It was extreme and four, that I think


there is a genuine anger. Let me set the context. Last year very


stringent restrictions were placed on the parade past Ardoyne. Those


restrictions were complied with. The Orange Order issued their contents


of template for dealing with particularly difficult problems. The


white rock Parade and other parades all went off very quietly and


smoothly with a lot of work done by communities, so therefore given that


context and all the work that has been done, the efforts that have


been made by the loyal orders and the communities to comply with what


has been asked of them, they then find this year they are told they


cannot even return and so that understandably sends the message


that it does not matter what you do, you will never do enough to


satisfy the Parades Commission. may be the case, but we heard from


the Chief Constable and the Assistant Chief Constable that 32


police officers were injured, an MP knocked unconscious and taken to


hospital, violence that went on for many hours on Friday and Saturday


night, surely it is more than highly regrettable and unfortunate. It was


thuggery. Those people did not need to do that. I'd agree with that. It


was wrong and I would condemn the violence, but in condemning it you


must also understand the context that gave rise to it. Gerry Kelly,


what do you say in response to that? John Kyle has condemned the violence


but there must be an understanding of why it happened, that is his


point. Let's put # let us put this in context. Most of this parade was


uncontentious, there was no issue. Orangemen talked about an Orange


vest, if you want one of them have it where it is accepted and welcome.


Why would you even think about trying to move through that area


which is not acceptable. We are not just talking about this year, but we


had sectarian abuse, anti-Catholic songs. I have seen on this same


parade in the past Orange women breast with beer bosoms to attack


the very core of what is Catholicism in this area. That is what we are


dealing with in this issue. John Kyle's point and points other people


have made from the Orange Order is that this looks like, to them, a


reward for violence because last year there were those from the


republican community who had a violent reaction to the fact that


the parade did take place. Loyalists interpreted as a pat on the back for


them and Unionists think they are being punished. You have heavy


counterarguments to that which is the Parliament edges -- the


paramilitaries were going in every time there was an issue around


this. This has been repeated time and again, there would be Armageddon


and violence. There would be a terrible situation. Let us not talk


about this as if there was no threat of violence from the others. We


talked about community relations. Is there no notion that these


contentious parades, 3600 parades, and a handful of them which cause


this level of violence and the difficulty of those periods, was


there no notion that that was doing damage to community relations over a


very long period of time? This parade is not through a republican


area, it is past Ardoyne. That is not strictly correct. It is the only


route home for the parade. Now, it is not. They have gone to great


lengths. There were negotiations with local residents to try to


arrive at some accommodation and agreement. There have been rigorous


attempts and consistent attempts over the past year to try to resolve


some of these differences. It is not as if people are sitting on their


hands. What has been done has failed, and was attempts dead in the


water? No, they are not. Past 48 hours have been a setback. A setback


for Unionists and loyalists? Some would say an own goal for Unionists


and loyalists. The Secretary of State said this does nothing to


promote or celebrate Britishness. is a mistake to blame the Orange


Order or loyalists for what has happened over the last 48 hours.


That is what Mark Baggett has done. He has fallen into the same trap as


others. They demonise loyalists and condemn the Order. We all have a


responsibility to work to resolve these contentious issues. Gerry


Kelly, there is no point in demonising these people, do you


agree with that? I do not think that Unionism and loyalism should be


demonise. My community has been demonised many times. But this is an


issue of criticising the Orange Order and the leadership of Unionism


who are not showing the proper leadership to bring us through.


Mervyn Gibson who is irreverent and as the chaplain has thought about


the flag-wavers, he has thought about war. He has thought about all


of that. Is that what a judge is Persian should be seeing and is that


what you see when you think you are going to have this sort of violence?


Mervyn Gibson cannot defend himself. At some stage in the future he will


come in and talk about that. Thank you both for joining me. Let us hear


more from Liam and Sam. Sam McBride, no agreement between the two guest


today, do we now have an opportunity to try and resolve this issue or


does it get worse and worse? only be that this can be resolved as


for all of the politicians to come to an agreement. If you are Peter


Robinson trying to sort this out or if you are Martin McGuinness, this


is very difficult for both of them. This has not been resurrected in the


lifetime of this government. The Democratic coalition has not had a


proposal from Stormont saying that they want it repeated. I think there


is a need to get things in perspective. They are more matches


this year than last year. The Orange Order has not really had its nose


rubbed in the docks to the extent that some are claiming. We need some


perspective. Thank you for the moment. Let us take a look at the


political week that was in 60 Seconds.


Blue skies and sunshine this week but not so in the Assembly where


there was little warmth when members were we called the debate that BBC


Spotlight red sky investigation. When the First Minister goes to his


house to talk about transparency, that he might have been going to


tell us about the details of his relationship with these


individuals. Building Bridges proved difficulty


this week. The narrow water project was put on hold after the figure was


increased unexpectedly. Orange Order talks with national


residents failed to reach an agreement beating the final decision


to the Parades Commission. Our job is incredibly difficult to manage


the way through this and take decisions that are fair and balanced


which we believe this one has. the Orange Order. We are angry and


there will be protests. It is our intention and prayers that those


protest will be peaceful. Martina Purdy reporting. Final


thoughts. We, looking ahead to Tuesday, what can we expect? It is a


test of the maturity of the political system. Can the


politicians claim back from this situation? I hope there is no


grandstanding. They must show that they can provide solutions.


crucial thing is whether the Sinn Fein and Unionist relationship has


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