14/07/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

nights of rioting in northern Belfast, the Orange Order are

branded Reckless, the Secretary of State answers questions on the way

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2217 seconds

Northern Ireland. Two nights of rioting and North Belfast, hundreds

of police drafted in from Britain, the Orange Order branded reckless by

the Chief Constable and the Parades Commission condemned again by the

Unionists. Welcome to summertime in Belfast. We will give from Theresa

Villiers, the Secretary of State, in a moment. The Progressive Unionists

also give us the analysis of events. We are joined by two of our

leading political journalist, Liam Clarke and Sam McBride.

A clean-up is underway yet again after a second night of rioting and

North Belfast. Trouble started on Friday evening after police enforced

a ruling banning a return parade for the area around Ardoyne shops.

Police said 32 of their officers were injured in the violence and DUP

MP Nigel Dodds was taken to hospital unconscious after being hit by a

missile thrown by Wallace. Officers used baton rounds and what can to

contain the violence. Last night trouble flared again with petrol

bombs thrown at police lines at it was less severe than Vegas nights.

The Secretary of State Theresa Villiers joins me now. Who is

responsible for this violence? people who are responsible are those

throwing petrol bombs. Everyone must reflect on how we can all encourage

cam in this situation. It is shameful the violence that we have

seen on the streets of Belfast. It undermines much of the progress that

we were able to demonstrate at the G8 with a modern and forward-looking

Northern Ireland in which a huge amount had been achieved. This

undermines Northern Ireland's ability to compete in the world for

jobs and investment and it is essential that stops. The Chief

Constable was clear in his comments that the Orange Order brought people

out on the disputes to protest without a plan or any way of

controlling them and he says that was reckless, do you agree? I think

he is correct. It is important for the Orange Order to reflect on their

role. I know they are angry and I understand their anger about the

Parades Commission determination, but bringing many people out onto

the streets to protest when the situation was as tense as it was,

without the kind of plan that the Chief Constable has talked about, I

think that was part of the problem, it is part of the cause of the

disturbances we have seen. Mark Baggott says the Orange Order must

reflect on the leadership it gave, do you agree with that? Yes, I do

think they must reflect on that. It is important for all of us in

Northern Ireland's political leadership, the Orange Order, for us

to call for these issues to be resolved peacefully. The Orange

Order did the right thing is starting to engage with residents,

something they had not previously done. They were correctly praised

for that. I hope that when things have calmed down that that local

dialogue can continue, it is the best way to find a long-term

solution. No one is defending the British culture, no one is defending

Unionism by throwing bricks at police officers, this is undermining

the very cause that the Orange Order seeks to support if we see this

violence continue. It is pretty obvious that there is a section of

our community who feel disenfranchised, marginalised and

that no one is listening to their concerns and their anger is directed

at the Parades Commission and specifically it -- its ruling

regarding Friday 's parade. Did the Parades Commission get it correct?

They are an Independent body for a good reason. When these decisions

were taken by the police and the Secretary of State, the situation

tended to be even more difficult. There has been progress and there

are many thousands of rates that take place in a peaceful way in

Northern Ireland. The way forward is for calm on the streets over the

next few days and a local dialogue for progress on the working group

that they get the First Minister rightfully set up to look at

long-term reform. I understand that you say it is not helpful to comment

on individual determinations, but with respect, it is dangerous for

you to equivocate, because the Secretary of State appoints the

commission and you hold the Commission to account. If you do not

see that the determination on Friday was right, people will read that as

you not giving your full backing to the commission and suggesting the

decision was wrong. Can you clear that up? I do not think they will

read it in that way. The Parades Commission as independent for a good

reason and that is why their decisions are copied. -- obeyed.

Does the Parades Commission have your backing? It does. Violence is

not inevitable. Some have said it was inevitable. It is not

inevitable. Even a controversial decision, this decision did provoke

concern from part of the community, but that does not justify or make

violence inevitable. The are other ways to express concern about

decisions like this, but there are far better ways to get a solution I

talking to people, having a local dialogue and following the example

set by the apprentice boys of Derry who have made real progress because

they talked to the residents who were affected. To be clear, you will

not say one way or another whether this issue has been resolved

directly by the Parades Commission? I do not comment on their decisions

directly. The Parades Commission have my full confidence and anyone

who seeks to disobey their determination is risking the kind of

scenes we have seen over the last few nights and risking criminal

convictions. What is your understanding within the heart of

the longest community at that ruling on Friday? What steps have you taken

in the last 48 hours to try to have a better understanding of what it is

that has so upset that community resulting in the violence we have

seen? Before and after the determination I sought out many

conversations with people with differing views on this

determination. In fact, over the last few months I have had a

succession of meetings with residents, MLAs and ministers to

listen to their views and to seek a way forward. At all those

discussions have arched a peaceful approach, a non-violent approach,

respect for the rule of law and looking for a local dialogue to

resolve these issues in the future. Have you spoken to Nigel Dodds who

was injured and taken to hospital? have tried to get hold of him but I

have not been able to speak to him yet since Friday night, obviously

the days in the run-up to Friday I had spoken to him. Very quickly,

what is the next move in the days ahead? The Assembly on Tuesday will

debate this issue. I do not know if that is a good or a bad thing, but

many will look to you and other senior politicians to dealers out of

this difficulty. What must happen now? Strong support for the police,

they did a brilliant job. They put their own personal safety at risk.

They have upheld the rule of law. They have done an excellent job and

we should have a unanimous reaction from Northern Ireland's little

leadership supporting them but calling for the Parades Commission

determination to be respected. you for joining us.

Let US Open the discussion to the Belfast Telegraph's Liam Clarke and

Sam McBride from the News Letter. Liam Clarke, what are you make of

what the Secretary of State has had to say about what has unfolded in

the past 48 hours? What the secretary of state said was what you

would X X hard to say. She supports legal institutions and the rule of

law, the Parades Commission which is legally appointed by the police and

calling for calm. There is no sign of the wobble that some of the DUP

and the Orange Order wanted where she would intervene and overturn the

determination. That is not good to happen. We must take it from there.

Is it enough, Sam McBride, as the Secretary of State has done to stay

outside the debate about whether or not the original determination by

the Parades Commission was the correct one or the wrong one?

are serious questions over the two determination because it gave the

idea that the violence last year from dissident republicans was

rewarded in terms of the march being stopped. They went out of their way

to get buses and all sorts of things last year, it was a strange

determination. I do not think it is the place for the secretary of state

to step in however, otherwise every single time in every part of

Northern Ireland when there is a decision that one site does not like

it would come down to the secretary of state. Lots of people would love

to see the Parades Commission gone but even those people recognise you

must have a body to do this. What is your sense of how things will unfold

from a political sense, Liam, and the next 24 hours? I do not know

whether Tuesday will help or hinder progress, but whether we like it or

not MLAs will gather again and talk about the determination itself and

the event that followed. Clearly there is a rethink within unionism.

I understand both parties were asked to come onto this programme and did

not. Perhaps it is a good thing to take some time out because a lot

will depend what is said and the assembler on Tuesday. It could be a

time to articulate and and it could be an opportunity to calm things

down. The motion that the DUP put it is very interesting. They have

decided that that they have described the Parades Commission

decision as illogical. We will come back and hear more from both of you

later in the programme. Liam, we did ask the Ulster Unionists, the DUP

and the Orange Order to join us but no one from those organisations was

able to be here. Thank you both for the moment.

There has been criticism of the violence and the Orange Order's call

for protest against the Parades Commission ruling. They have since

called for protest to be suspended but not before the Chief Constable

displayed their actions as reckless. Some of the leadership within the

Orange Order must reflect upon whether they provided the

responsible leadership asked for by myself and by the party leaders.

Some of the language was emotive and having called thousands of people to

protest they had no plan and no control. Rather than being

responsible, I think the word for that is reckless. We were very clear

from day one that our overriding concerns for public safety, crowd

safety, and the interests of thousands of people on the street,

and with hot weather, with alcohol flowing freely and with a volatile

situation with passions raised, not to have a plan, not to have the

control, compromised the safety of many people. We were attacked by

fireworks, missiles, masonry, catapults. By laser pens by a whole

range of weapons. That is what led to the 32 injuries. It would be

wrong in any way to see those injuries and that the Rogers attack

on the police line was some sort of demonstration of righteous anger, it

was nothing but thuggery on a grand scale. Joining me now are the North

Belfast Sinn Fein MLA Gerry Kelly and the East Belfast MP PUP

councillor John Kyle. We just heard from the assistant chief constable

Will Kerr. He said this was not righteous anger, it was thuggery on

a grand scale. Do you agree with them? No, I do not. I think that the

violence was highly regrettable. It was extreme and four, that I think

there is a genuine anger. Let me set the context. Last year very

stringent restrictions were placed on the parade past Ardoyne. Those

restrictions were complied with. The Orange Order issued their contents

of template for dealing with particularly difficult problems. The

white rock Parade and other parades all went off very quietly and

smoothly with a lot of work done by communities, so therefore given that

context and all the work that has been done, the efforts that have

been made by the loyal orders and the communities to comply with what

has been asked of them, they then find this year they are told they

cannot even return and so that understandably sends the message

that it does not matter what you do, you will never do enough to

satisfy the Parades Commission. may be the case, but we heard from

the Chief Constable and the Assistant Chief Constable that 32

police officers were injured, an MP knocked unconscious and taken to

hospital, violence that went on for many hours on Friday and Saturday

night, surely it is more than highly regrettable and unfortunate. It was

thuggery. Those people did not need to do that. I'd agree with that. It

was wrong and I would condemn the violence, but in condemning it you

must also understand the context that gave rise to it. Gerry Kelly,

what do you say in response to that? John Kyle has condemned the violence

but there must be an understanding of why it happened, that is his

point. Let's put # let us put this in context. Most of this parade was

uncontentious, there was no issue. Orangemen talked about an Orange

vest, if you want one of them have it where it is accepted and welcome.

Why would you even think about trying to move through that area

which is not acceptable. We are not just talking about this year, but we

had sectarian abuse, anti-Catholic songs. I have seen on this same

parade in the past Orange women breast with beer bosoms to attack

the very core of what is Catholicism in this area. That is what we are

dealing with in this issue. John Kyle's point and points other people

have made from the Orange Order is that this looks like, to them, a

reward for violence because last year there were those from the

republican community who had a violent reaction to the fact that

the parade did take place. Loyalists interpreted as a pat on the back for

them and Unionists think they are being punished. You have heavy

counterarguments to that which is the Parliament edges -- the

paramilitaries were going in every time there was an issue around

this. This has been repeated time and again, there would be Armageddon

and violence. There would be a terrible situation. Let us not talk

about this as if there was no threat of violence from the others. We

talked about community relations. Is there no notion that these

contentious parades, 3600 parades, and a handful of them which cause

this level of violence and the difficulty of those periods, was

there no notion that that was doing damage to community relations over a

very long period of time? This parade is not through a republican

area, it is past Ardoyne. That is not strictly correct. It is the only

route home for the parade. Now, it is not. They have gone to great

lengths. There were negotiations with local residents to try to

arrive at some accommodation and agreement. There have been rigorous

attempts and consistent attempts over the past year to try to resolve

some of these differences. It is not as if people are sitting on their

hands. What has been done has failed, and was attempts dead in the

water? No, they are not. Past 48 hours have been a setback. A setback

for Unionists and loyalists? Some would say an own goal for Unionists

and loyalists. The Secretary of State said this does nothing to

promote or celebrate Britishness. is a mistake to blame the Orange

Order or loyalists for what has happened over the last 48 hours.

That is what Mark Baggett has done. He has fallen into the same trap as

others. They demonise loyalists and condemn the Order. We all have a

responsibility to work to resolve these contentious issues. Gerry

Kelly, there is no point in demonising these people, do you

agree with that? I do not think that Unionism and loyalism should be

demonise. My community has been demonised many times. But this is an

issue of criticising the Orange Order and the leadership of Unionism

who are not showing the proper leadership to bring us through.

Mervyn Gibson who is irreverent and as the chaplain has thought about

the flag-wavers, he has thought about war. He has thought about all

of that. Is that what a judge is Persian should be seeing and is that

what you see when you think you are going to have this sort of violence?

Mervyn Gibson cannot defend himself. At some stage in the future he will

come in and talk about that. Thank you both for joining me. Let us hear

more from Liam and Sam. Sam McBride, no agreement between the two guest

today, do we now have an opportunity to try and resolve this issue or

does it get worse and worse? only be that this can be resolved as

for all of the politicians to come to an agreement. If you are Peter

Robinson trying to sort this out or if you are Martin McGuinness, this

is very difficult for both of them. This has not been resurrected in the

lifetime of this government. The Democratic coalition has not had a

proposal from Stormont saying that they want it repeated. I think there

is a need to get things in perspective. They are more matches

this year than last year. The Orange Order has not really had its nose

rubbed in the docks to the extent that some are claiming. We need some

perspective. Thank you for the moment. Let us take a look at the

political week that was in 60 Seconds.

Blue skies and sunshine this week but not so in the Assembly where

there was little warmth when members were we called the debate that BBC

Spotlight red sky investigation. When the First Minister goes to his

house to talk about transparency, that he might have been going to

tell us about the details of his relationship with these

individuals. Building Bridges proved difficulty

this week. The narrow water project was put on hold after the figure was

increased unexpectedly. Orange Order talks with national

residents failed to reach an agreement beating the final decision

to the Parades Commission. Our job is incredibly difficult to manage

the way through this and take decisions that are fair and balanced

which we believe this one has. the Orange Order. We are angry and

there will be protests. It is our intention and prayers that those

protest will be peaceful. Martina Purdy reporting. Final

thoughts. We, looking ahead to Tuesday, what can we expect? It is a

test of the maturity of the political system. Can the

politicians claim back from this situation? I hope there is no

grandstanding. They must show that they can provide solutions.

crucial thing is whether the Sinn Fein and Unionist relationship has