15/01/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


15/01/2017

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

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Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

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of the EU's single market and its customs union?

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We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:47.:00:49.

Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:50.:00:56.

As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

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of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

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Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

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Piers Morgan, a man who knows him well, joins us live.

:01:10.:01:14.

We've heard plenty from the DUP and Sinn Fein in the past week.

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Today the Ulster Unionists, SDLP and Alliance have their say

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on what feels like the eve of a new election campaign.

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And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

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hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

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So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

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in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

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and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

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Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

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The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

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gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

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will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

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of the single market and customs union.

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The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

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they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

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The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

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hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

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And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

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explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

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and call for an end to free movement.

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Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

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I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

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of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

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most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

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But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

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that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

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the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

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the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

:03:11.:03:13.

basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

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with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

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stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:23.:03:26.

British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

:03:27.:03:29.

ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

:03:30.:03:33.

upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:34.:03:37.

position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

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and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

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it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

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the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

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believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

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resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

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Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

:04:04.:04:08.

negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

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really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

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fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

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whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

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the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

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Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

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final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

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Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

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Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

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a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

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introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

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It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

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servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

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deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

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the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

:05:08.:05:13.

Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

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You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

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jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

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of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

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it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

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good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

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that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

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nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

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best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

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that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

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union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

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package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

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better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

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travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

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Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

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and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

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the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

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believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

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for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

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ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

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continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:32.:06:36.

what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

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Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

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membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

:06:45.:06:46.

amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

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believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

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I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

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people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

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individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

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your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

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freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

:07:15.:07:19.

Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

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don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

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without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

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depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

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white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

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flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

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corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

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that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

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members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

:07:54.:07:59.

of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

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many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

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you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

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aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

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that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

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very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

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in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

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answer to my question, you haven't answered it

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the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

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deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

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right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

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you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

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afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

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The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

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Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

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the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:07.:09:10.

of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

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only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

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for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:18.:09:23.

that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

:09:24.:09:28.

migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

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that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

:09:32.:09:34.

is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

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customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

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clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

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don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

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definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

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is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

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somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

:09:59.:10:01.

hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

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option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

:10:07.:10:09.

personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

:10:10.:10:12.

We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

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on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

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reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

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possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

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David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

:10:33.:10:36.

Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

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are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

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rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

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arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

:10:53.:10:55.

encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

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deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

:11:00.:11:03.

service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

:11:04.:11:07.

this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

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you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

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years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

:11:15.:11:20.

to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

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would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

:11:24.:11:28.

What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

:11:29.:11:34.

of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

:11:35.:11:37.

machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

:11:38.:11:43.

pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

:11:44.:11:46.

you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

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Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

:11:52.:11:57.

European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

:11:58.:12:02.

of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

:12:03.:12:05.

these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

:12:06.:12:09.

intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

:12:10.:12:12.

what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

:12:13.:12:17.

Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

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markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

:12:22.:12:24.

doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

:12:25.:12:28.

it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

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Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

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week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

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enact a controversial piece of legislation.

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Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

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could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

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If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

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The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

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while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

:12:56.:12:58.

a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

:12:59.:13:00.

Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

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It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

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a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

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They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

:13:16.:13:17.

It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

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a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

:13:21.:13:30.

and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

:13:31.:13:33.

which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

:13:34.:13:35.

If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

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that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

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like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

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To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

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the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

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publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

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costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

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It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

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We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

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This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

:14:06.:14:08.

of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

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from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

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It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

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I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

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you have an incomplete Leveson project.

:14:29.:14:29.

I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

:14:30.:14:33.

there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

:14:34.:14:35.

standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

:14:36.:14:37.

"Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

:14:38.:14:40.

Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

:14:41.:14:43.

We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

:14:44.:14:51.

for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

:14:52.:14:53.

They get huge new protections from libel threats,

:14:54.:14:56.

from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

:14:57.:14:58.

a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

:14:59.:15:07.

Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

:15:08.:15:10.

Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

:15:11.:15:15.

the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

:15:16.:15:18.

doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

:15:19.:15:24.

The male cells around 22,000 each day...

:15:25.:15:27.

There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

:15:28.:15:30.

won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

:15:31.:15:32.

are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

:15:33.:15:36.

Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

:15:37.:15:39.

through the recognition setup that it has.

:15:40.:15:41.

Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

:15:42.:15:43.

when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

:15:44.:15:46.

If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

:15:47.:15:54.

we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

:15:55.:15:58.

The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

:15:59.:16:01.

since the Government launched its consultation

:16:02.:16:02.

In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

:16:03.:16:05.

And for that reason alone, it could take months before

:16:06.:16:10.

a decision on what happens next is taken.

:16:11.:16:14.

The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

:16:15.:16:17.

One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

:16:18.:16:23.

So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

:16:24.:16:25.

I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

:16:26.:16:34.

What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

:16:35.:16:38.

on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

:16:39.:16:42.

was failing to work, was not delivering effective

:16:43.:16:45.

regulation and the press were behaving in a way

:16:46.:16:49.

which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

:16:50.:16:53.

then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

:16:54.:16:57.

case we are going to have to take further measures,

:16:58.:16:59.

The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

:17:00.:17:04.

I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

:17:05.:17:07.

about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

:17:08.:17:11.

to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

:17:12.:17:14.

But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

:17:15.:17:17.

I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

:17:18.:17:27.

Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

:17:28.:17:30.

and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

:17:31.:17:34.

Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

:17:35.:17:43.

that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:44.:17:47.

press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:48.:17:52.

we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:53.:17:57.

into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:17:58.:18:01.

absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:18:02.:18:05.

like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

:18:06.:18:10.

hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:11.:18:11.

means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:12.:18:39.

many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:40.:18:41.

does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:42.:18:44.

You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:45.:18:46.

People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:47.:18:49.

from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:50.:18:53.

but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:54.:18:56.

money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:18:57.:19:02.

from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

:19:03.:19:06.

the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

:19:07.:19:11.

because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:12.:19:14.

most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

:19:15.:19:25.

the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:26.:19:29.

influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:30.:19:36.

lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:37.:19:40.

historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:41.:19:49.

family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

:19:50.:19:53.

control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:54.:19:58.

the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:19:59.:20:03.

completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:04.:20:08.

wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

:20:09.:20:12.

because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

:20:13.:20:18.

curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

:20:19.:20:23.

press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

:20:24.:20:28.

Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:29.:20:33.

is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

:20:34.:20:41.

tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:42.:20:46.

advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:47.:20:52.

Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:53.:20:57.

be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:20:58.:21:02.

press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

:21:03.:21:05.

reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:06.:21:10.

selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:11.:21:12.

absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:13.:21:17.

Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:18.:21:22.

remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:23.:21:28.

He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:29.:21:34.

the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:35.:21:43.

do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:44.:21:59.

code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

:22:00.:22:05.

be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:06.:22:09.

against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:10.:22:14.

wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:15.:22:20.

I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:21.:22:31.

wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

:22:32.:22:39.

Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:40.:22:43.

people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:44.:22:48.

but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:49.:22:54.

have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:55.:22:57.

about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:22:58.:23:04.

possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:05.:23:09.

asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:10.:23:15.

the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:16.:23:21.

some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:22.:23:27.

the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:28.:23:31.

newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:32.:23:37.

enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:38.:23:41.

their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:42.:23:48.

they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:49.:23:57.

won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:23:58.:24:07.

fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:08.:24:11.

relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:12.:24:16.

The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:17.:24:20.

against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:21.:24:24.

understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:25.:24:30.

boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:31.:24:37.

Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:38.:24:46.

Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:47.:24:55.

would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:24:56.:25:00.

compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:25:01.:25:05.

papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:06.:25:10.

they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:11.:25:17.

regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:18.:25:21.

own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:22.:25:26.

one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:27.:25:30.

expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:31.:25:34.

the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:35.:25:38.

either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:39.:25:43.

approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:44.:25:55.

independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:25:56.:26:04.

a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:05.:26:08.

Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:09.:26:12.

to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:13.:26:15.

have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:16.:26:19.

expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:20.:26:24.

which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:25.:26:28.

up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:29.:26:32.

potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:33.:26:41.

the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:42.:26:46.

the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:47.:26:53.

it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:54.:26:56.

journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:26:57.:27:01.

scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:27:02.:27:05.

that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:06.:27:12.

equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:13.:27:16.

judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:17.:27:21.

saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:22.:27:26.

should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:27.:27:32.

is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:33.:27:36.

what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:37.:27:42.

something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:43.:27:47.

happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:48.:27:50.

circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:51.:27:54.

that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:55.:27:58.

because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:27:59.:28:03.

That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:04.:28:08.

newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:09.:28:14.

Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:15.:28:20.

outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:21.:28:23.

bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:24.:28:27.

the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:28.:28:36.

guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:37.:28:41.

The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:42.:28:45.

somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:46.:28:50.

can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:51.:28:53.

The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:54.:28:55.

has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:56.:28:57.

The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:28:58.:29:01.

open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:29:02.:29:04.

The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:05.:29:07.

It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:08.:29:10.

had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:11.:29:12.

At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:13.:29:19.

or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:20.:29:21.

On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:22.:29:26.

that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:27.:29:29.

But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:30.:29:37.

He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:38.:29:39.

On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:40.:29:44.

to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:45.:29:47.

paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:48.:29:52.

On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:53.:29:56.

told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:29:57.:30:01.

And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:30:02.:30:05.

The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:06.:30:09.

was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:10.:30:13.

And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:14.:30:17.

46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:18.:30:23.

Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:24.:30:27.

opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:28.:30:31.

To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:32.:30:38.

MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:39.:30:41.

life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:42.:30:43.

Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:44.:30:54.

saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:55.:30:58.

enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:30:59.:31:02.

think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:31:03.:31:05.

have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:06.:31:10.

still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:11.:31:14.

GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:15.:31:19.

an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:20.:31:24.

is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:25.:31:28.

cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:29.:31:32.

wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:33.:31:35.

forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:36.:31:39.

to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:40.:31:48.

A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:49.:31:51.

play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:52.:31:54.

patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:55.:31:57.

by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:31:58.:32:01.

hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:32:02.:32:05.

Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:06.:32:10.

shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:11.:32:16.

or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:17.:32:18.

physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:19.:32:26.

most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:27.:32:30.

don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:31.:32:34.

working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:35.:32:38.

profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:39.:32:43.

Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:44.:32:50.

half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:51.:32:54.

of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:55.:32:58.

working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:32:59.:33:02.

not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:03.:33:06.

working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:07.:33:10.

if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:11.:33:13.

the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:14.:33:20.

out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:21.:33:23.

runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:24.:33:25.

contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:26.:33:30.

tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:31.:33:35.

the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:36.:33:37.

this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:38.:33:42.

practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:43.:33:47.

there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:48.:33:52.

are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:53.:33:55.

offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:56.:33:59.

they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:34:00.:34:04.

saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:05.:34:07.

one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:08.:34:12.

keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:13.:34:15.

should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:16.:34:19.

their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:20.:34:25.

upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:26.:34:28.

highly skilled doctor, looking after highly skilled doctor, looking after

:34:29.:34:33.

patients from cradle to grave across the physical, psychological and

:34:34.:34:39.

social, I am not an A doctor. I don't disagree with that, nobody is

:34:40.:34:42.

saying that GPs are not working hard enough. You just did, actually,

:34:43.:34:47.

about some of them. In some practices, what we need to see, it's

:34:48.:34:53.

not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is advanced nurse practitioners,

:34:54.:34:55.

pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily need to be all on the GPs. I think

:34:56.:34:59.

advanced nurse practitioners are in short supply. Position associate or

:35:00.:35:05.

go to hospital, -- physician associates. We have very few

:35:06.:35:09.

trainees, junior doctors in general practice, unlike hospitals, which

:35:10.:35:12.

tend to have some slack with the junior doctor community and

:35:13.:35:17.

workforce. This isn't an argument, this is about saying, let's stop

:35:18.:35:20.

looking at the National health system as a National hospital

:35:21.:35:26.

system. GPs tomorrow will see about 1.3 million patients. That is a lot

:35:27.:35:30.

of thoughtful. A lot of activity with no resources. If you wanted the

:35:31.:35:35.

GPs to behave better, in your terms, when you allocated more money to

:35:36.:35:39.

GPs, part of the reforms, because that's where it went, shouldn't you

:35:40.:35:42.

have targeted it more closely to where they want to operate? That is

:35:43.:35:47.

exactly what the Prime Minister is saying, extra funding is being made

:35:48.:35:51.

available by GPs to extend hours and services. If certain GP practices

:35:52.:35:55.

cannot do that, the money will follow the patient to where they

:35:56.:35:59.

move onto. We have no doctors to do it. I was on a coach last week, the

:36:00.:36:03.

coach driver stopped in the service station for an hour, they were

:36:04.:36:06.

stopping for a rest. We cannot do it. Even if you gave us millions

:36:07.:36:15.

more money, and thankfully NHS is recognising that we need a solution

:36:16.:36:17.

through the five-day week, we haven't got the doctors to deliver

:36:18.:36:20.

this. It would take a while to get them? That's my point, that's why we

:36:21.:36:23.

need to be using all how care professional. Even if you got this

:36:24.:36:26.

right, would it make a difference to what many regard as the crisis in

:36:27.:36:31.

our hospitals? I think it would. If you look at patients, they just want

:36:32.:36:34.

to go to a service that will address the problems. In Scotland for

:36:35.:36:39.

example, pharmacists have their own patient list. Patients go and see

:36:40.:36:43.

the pharmacists first. There are lots of conditions, for example if

:36:44.:36:47.

you want anticoagulants, you don't necessarily need to see a doctor, a

:36:48.:36:51.

pharmacist can manage that and free up the doctor in other ways. The

:36:52.:36:55.

Prime Minister has said that if things do not change she is

:36:56.:36:58.

threatening to reduce funding to doctors who do not comply. Can you

:36:59.:37:03.

both agree, that is probably an empty threat, that's not going to

:37:04.:37:06.

happen? I hope it's an empty threat. We're trying our best. People like

:37:07.:37:11.

me in my profession, the seniors in our profession, are really trying to

:37:12.:37:14.

pull up morale and get people into general practice, which is a

:37:15.:37:17.

wonderful profession, absolutely wonderful place to be. But slapping

:37:18.:37:23.

us off and telling us that we are lazy really doesn't help. I really

:37:24.:37:27.

don't think anybody is doing that. We have run out of time, but I'm

:37:28.:37:32.

certain that we will be back to the subject before this winter is out.

:37:33.:37:34.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:35.:37:36.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:37.:37:39.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

:37:40.:37:49.

It started with a financial scandal and looks set to end with Stormont

:37:50.:37:53.

So just how damaged are the political

:37:54.:37:59.

institutions by this crisis - and will an election

:38:00.:38:01.

I'm joined by Alliance Leader, Naomi Long, the Ulster Unionists'

:38:02.:38:06.

Philip Smith, and the SDLP's Nichola Mallon.

:38:07.:38:09.

And with their thoughts on all the week's political dramas

:38:10.:38:12.

are the Political Editor of the News Letter,

:38:13.:38:14.

Sam McBride, and the columnist Fionnuala O'Connor...

:38:15.:38:20.

So, despite James Brokenshire's offer of talks this weekend,

:38:21.:38:24.

it still looks a near certainty that an Assembly election

:38:25.:38:27.

The Secretary of State is expected to make that call

:38:28.:38:31.

at 5 o'clock tomorrow - exactly a week after

:38:32.:38:33.

Martin McGuinness resigned from his post as Deputy First

:38:34.:38:35.

This is what Mr Brokenshire said to Andrew Marr

:38:36.:38:38.

A clear indication and the increasing likelihood is that we are

:38:39.:38:50.

moving towards an election. Obviously I would be considering the

:38:51.:38:55.

position at that point in time, my statutory responsibility is to call

:38:56.:38:58.

an election but that means there needs to be a campaign of 25 working

:38:59.:39:03.

days. And would really encourage the parties themselves to think about

:39:04.:39:07.

these big issues on how they conduct their campaign and how we can build

:39:08.:39:10.

things back together again once it is concluded.

:39:11.:39:12.

Well I'm joined now by Philip Smith from the Ulster Unionist Party,

:39:13.:39:19.

Nichola Mallon from the SDLP and the Alliance

:39:20.:39:21.

Welcome to you all. Philip Smith, your party leader said back in

:39:22.:39:29.

October that if you vote for Mike, you get Colum, vote Colum and you

:39:30.:39:35.

get Mike... How is the coming along? We are in a situation where the

:39:36.:39:40.

competence and functionality of the DUP and Sinn Fein government...

:39:41.:39:43.

There is a fork in the road and people are being given a clear

:39:44.:39:48.

choice. Do they want more of the same? Do they want more dysfunction

:39:49.:39:52.

or scandal? Or do they want real change for Northern Ireland? It's

:39:53.:39:56.

every all challenge ahead and we are confident that we can provide the

:39:57.:40:00.

auto that if government. Is that the Ulster Unionist Party as a package

:40:01.:40:05.

providing the alternative government? Is that where you go to

:40:06.:40:11.

the doorsteps with your big idea? We have a brand and what we are putting

:40:12.:40:15.

forward to the people... What about vote Colum and get Mike and vice

:40:16.:40:21.

versa? Has it gone away? We need an alternative. The DUP and Sinn Fein

:40:22.:40:24.

have failed the people of Northern Ireland and the RHI scandal

:40:25.:40:30.

highlights it up in lights. But what is the alternative? Is it the

:40:31.:40:35.

opposition working together as a team and asking for people to vote

:40:36.:40:41.

for the Ulster Unionist Party Party and the SDLP as a package? You've

:40:42.:40:47.

abandoned what Mike Nesbitt said at the party conference? No... It

:40:48.:40:53.

cannot be both! We are standing as the UUP. The SDLP and Nicola will

:40:54.:40:58.

speak for her party, they are a party in their own right, we are

:40:59.:41:02.

putting ourselves up as an alternative government. As someone

:41:03.:41:05.

bringing the latest candidates in this election they move forward and

:41:06.:41:09.

offer real experience, not career politicians with experience of

:41:10.:41:13.

business and running organisations and professionals in the public and

:41:14.:41:17.

private sector. Have relations between the UUP and SDLP broken down

:41:18.:41:21.

as they appear to have broken down between Sinn Fein and the DUP?

:41:22.:41:26.

Absolutely not, I do not think you can overestimate how dysfunctional

:41:27.:41:29.

the relationship is between the DUP and Sinn Fein but at the party

:41:30.:41:35.

conference, my party leader was very clear. We are two distinct political

:41:36.:41:39.

parties and have different positions on a number of issues but where

:41:40.:41:44.

there are areas of commonality we can work together. In the past

:41:45.:41:48.

number of months we've shown in health and housing and property that

:41:49.:41:51.

we can bring motions together and work together. But fundamentally, we

:41:52.:41:55.

have shown we can work together based on respect, and I think that

:41:56.:41:58.

is the fundamental difference but we will both go into this election... I

:41:59.:42:03.

will stand as an SDLP candidate on and SDLP manifesto, Philip Smith and

:42:04.:42:09.

his colleagues will be doing the same but afterwards, when we go into

:42:10.:42:13.

negotiations, like every party we have a different position that can

:42:14.:42:17.

we work with Ulster Unionist Party the Alliance crushed at yes, we can

:42:18.:42:22.

work with any party. But I'm just trying to get a handle on what Mike

:42:23.:42:26.

Nesbitt meant in an election when he said that. The SDLP and the UUP have

:42:27.:42:39.

not had the knot. There are areas of commonality and consensus in some

:42:40.:42:42.

issues surrounding health and housing and property, we will work

:42:43.:42:47.

together... Would you like SDLP voters to transfer? Is that the kind

:42:48.:42:50.

of thing that needs to happen to make the breakthrough you've been

:42:51.:42:54.

telling us about? We will be asking voters to cast a vote and hold

:42:55.:42:57.

accountable of the politicians before them, we will ask people,

:42:58.:43:02.

please, don't be so disillusioned and frustrated and angry that you

:43:03.:43:05.

stay at home because what you had in the last ten years isn't good enough

:43:06.:43:09.

and you deserve better. That is the platform that we will stand on and

:43:10.:43:15.

after the negotiations it is clear that we will be willing to work with

:43:16.:43:20.

other parties and fundamental to that is the reconciliation project

:43:21.:43:23.

and a relationship based on respect. That is something that has sadly and

:43:24.:43:28.

damagingly been missing from the two parties in the executive. Naomi

:43:29.:43:32.

Long, there's been a lot of talk about opposition parties working

:43:33.:43:34.

together, where does the Alliance party fit into this at the moment?

:43:35.:43:39.

What do you make of the two main opposition parties? Tell me if you

:43:40.:43:43.

think I'm right, putting some distance between themselves in terms

:43:44.:43:46.

of relationships? At the end of the day, when I took over as leader, I

:43:47.:43:50.

said vote for Alliance and you get Alliance, that is the platform that

:43:51.:43:55.

we go to elections on. This fallacy that has arisen, that in some way

:43:56.:43:59.

opposition parties in the motor pool come together and form a grand

:44:00.:44:04.

coalition, a big party, standing for the electorate, is undemocratic. I

:44:05.:44:07.

have suffered at the hand of an electoral pact, I do not think they

:44:08.:44:16.

are healthy for democracy but I do think that by working together on

:44:17.:44:19.

practical issues we can increase the number of people who turn out and we

:44:20.:44:22.

will encourage people who do that to come forward and do that and we will

:44:23.:44:24.

transfer them to progressive politicians who want to make a

:44:25.:44:26.

difference in Northern Ireland, that is how the PR system works and how

:44:27.:44:30.

we will deliver change in the executive. In terms of opposition,

:44:31.:44:35.

it does not matter if you are official or unofficial opposition,

:44:36.:44:38.

the only difference is whether you get paid for it. We date but we are

:44:39.:44:41.

still doing the job. We are still holding the government to account --

:44:42.:44:47.

we do not. We can still challenge the DUP. We have seen DUP ministers

:44:48.:44:54.

treating their ministries and public finances like it is a slush fund.

:44:55.:44:59.

Sinn Fein have not abled them in that, as long as they also get their

:45:00.:45:04.

cut. That is not acceptable. Now, both of them are trying to reframe

:45:05.:45:08.

the election into an orange and green election when it is not about

:45:09.:45:13.

that but about accountability and competence and about delivering for

:45:14.:45:15.

the people of Northern Ireland. That is the pitch we are putting to

:45:16.:45:19.

people when the election is called and what I believe people want to

:45:20.:45:23.

see and there is every opportunity for change. I think we have to grasp

:45:24.:45:28.

that. How do you, in the Alliance party, exploit division between the

:45:29.:45:31.

two main parties who have failed to work in the government together in

:45:32.:45:34.

the way that they said they would, otherwise we would not be in the

:45:35.:45:38.

situation that we are in. While at the same time not injuring

:45:39.:45:41.

cooperation and working towards a shared society which is at the heart

:45:42.:45:46.

of your message? We are not out to exploit anything but put a positive

:45:47.:45:50.

message and alternative in. The failure of the DUP and Sinn Fein to

:45:51.:45:54.

make this executive function is written large and has collapsed

:45:55.:45:59.

after seven months. The only executives which survived without

:46:00.:46:02.

suspension are those in which there were Alliance ministers. If people

:46:03.:46:06.

want to look at where competence and stability has come from, they can

:46:07.:46:10.

trace it back to when Alliance was in government doing the job. We

:46:11.:46:14.

could not go into government in the context of last May because when we

:46:15.:46:19.

went and pointed out the very things that have unhinged the executive,

:46:20.:46:22.

the lack of accountability and the abuse of the petition of concern,

:46:23.:46:25.

the dirty dealings with coloured mirror truism.

:46:26.:46:31.

-- the paramilitary. After this election, we would consider going to

:46:32.:46:41.

any executive that is willing to front up to those issues and begin

:46:42.:46:44.

dealing with them and reconciliation, deal with division

:46:45.:46:48.

in society. The scandal of all of this? We are arguing about ?20

:46:49.:46:55.

million a year for 20 years being squandered on RHI and the cost of

:46:56.:47:01.

division, the most... The lowest estimate is ?100 million per year.

:47:02.:47:05.

If that is not a scandal worth voting on, I don't know what is. The

:47:06.:47:10.

DUP is making a great deal about the party not being compliant Unionists

:47:11.:47:14.

or a rule over Unionists, taking a swipe at your party, how do you

:47:15.:47:18.

persuade people you will stand for the union while wanting to work

:47:19.:47:23.

closely with the SDLP? A party which has already reminded people that if

:47:24.:47:29.

the devolution process does not work, then it favours the

:47:30.:47:33.

reintroduction, or the introduction, of joint authority? The DUP showed

:47:34.:47:38.

on Wednesday over 24 hours... I disagreed with the first decision

:47:39.:47:48.

but fundamentally, this election is about trust and putting country

:47:49.:47:57.

before party. He scandal of RHI, we are seeing those chickens coming

:47:58.:48:00.

home to roost, in terms of the impact on having no budget, and the

:48:01.:48:05.

terrible cuts likely to fall... This is not good to have an election

:48:06.:48:09.

about RHI but we can see the main party shaping up to make it exactly

:48:10.:48:13.

the same battle ground it always is. We've seen it over the last few

:48:14.:48:17.

days? It suits their agenda but we are going to keep the focus on the

:48:18.:48:22.

incompetence and dysfunction and scandal after scandal... But do you

:48:23.:48:26.

generally believe that they will cast their vote based on issues like

:48:27.:48:31.

RHI, competence to govern, rather than the old sectarian issues of

:48:32.:48:35.

orange and green? For the first time, people are coming up to me in

:48:36.:48:39.

shops and on the street and telling them about their anger at this and

:48:40.:48:44.

they will change how they voted, and they will punish the DUP for their

:48:45.:48:49.

incompetence. Whether it will come through a campaign, we will see but

:48:50.:48:53.

there is anger there and I would say to people that if you are angry,

:48:54.:48:57.

rightly so, channel it into voting for change. And bringing competent

:48:58.:49:01.

governments that everyone can support in Northern Ireland. And

:49:02.:49:05.

what may happen is people channel that anger by not voting whenever

:49:06.:49:12.

the polls are opened? That is the big challenge for all of us. We all

:49:13.:49:16.

know that there is public Angharad there. And we know that the people

:49:17.:49:19.

are frustrated but we have to say, it does not always have to be like

:49:20.:49:25.

this. You've hired incompetence over ten years -- anger out there. It

:49:26.:49:29.

does not come up over night... With all due respect, if you've had that

:49:30.:49:33.

over ten years, that's not good news for the STL P. Up until recently,

:49:34.:49:38.

they were part of that administration? I would take anyone

:49:39.:49:41.

on to talk about the SDLP's record in government. Despite immense

:49:42.:49:49.

pressure and four Alex Attwood, who build more social housing than any

:49:50.:49:58.

other minister, I will stand and have a debate with anyone about the

:49:59.:50:02.

STL P's track record... But nationalist voters may think that at

:50:03.:50:05.

the end of the day, they may fear that Unionists will still support

:50:06.:50:16.

the DLP on voting day and they could hold their noses and vote for Sinn

:50:17.:50:21.

Fein rather than risk supporting the STL P. People can be motivated out

:50:22.:50:28.

of fear and that is why they deploy every election as a tactic but

:50:29.:50:32.

people have been lied to. We were told that this was a wonderful

:50:33.:50:37.

executive doing wonderful thing, but they murdered each other in their

:50:38.:50:39.

manifestos in the last election, they brought the government

:50:40.:50:45.

programme forward, and it was heralded as a success. Several weeks

:50:46.:50:48.

ago they issued a statement about how they were doing a wonderful job

:50:49.:50:52.

and then we find out that it was a sham and it has been dysfunctional.

:50:53.:50:56.

They were trying to pull the wool over the public 's eyes. People have

:50:57.:51:01.

woken up and taken notice. They have the chance to change it. There's

:51:02.:51:04.

talk about Brexit which will be the backdrop for the whole election

:51:05.:51:09.

campaign, it seems to be the case that Theresa May is shaping up to

:51:10.:51:19.

support hard Brexit. Gray there are two things we can learn, the risk to

:51:20.:51:23.

Northern Ireland's future and how we can do business and connect with

:51:24.:51:28.

Europe and develop the economy. How we can protect those things that we

:51:29.:51:32.

hold dear and how we protect the institutions. They are under threat

:51:33.:51:36.

because of corruption and cronyism which is that the heart of

:51:37.:51:38.

government but they are also under threat because our constitutional

:51:39.:51:44.

position and relationships with the Republic of violent are altered

:51:45.:51:47.

beyond the control and wishes of the electorate of Northern Ireland which

:51:48.:51:51.

is a huge threat. If James Brokenshire wants to represent

:51:52.:51:54.

Northern Ireland that the table when it comes to Brecht said, he has to

:51:55.:52:00.

stop behaving like that -- the Republic of Ireland. However you

:52:01.:52:05.

want to frame the election, it proves that it is possible to shock

:52:06.:52:11.

even the most un-shockable people buy a result when you have the

:52:12.:52:15.

ballot box on your side and people want to make a difference and this

:52:16.:52:18.

time they have the opportunity to do so. We are very clear and we have

:52:19.:52:24.

said, categorically to the secretary of state, that Article 50 cannot be

:52:25.:52:28.

triggered in the absence of us having a government. We do not have

:52:29.:52:32.

the faith... We do not know if the British Cabinet would agree with

:52:33.:52:35.

that assessment but at the end of the day, London makes that call.

:52:36.:52:43.

You've asked me for the SDLP views and that is what it is. What about

:52:44.:52:47.

the Secretary of State and what did they say in response? He said that

:52:48.:52:51.

he was listening and that was the level of commitment that we've got.

:52:52.:52:55.

This is a huge legal challenge... Is huge political challenge. There is

:52:56.:52:58.

no plan within this executive or from the Tory government. It's

:52:59.:53:05.

another example of the dysfunctionality of the executive,

:53:06.:53:08.

they've had months to put a Brexit plan in place and have totally

:53:09.:53:11.

failed and that is why we need to see change and combatant and we need

:53:12.:53:15.

a new government for Northern Ireland. Thank you all very much

:53:16.:53:16.

indeed. Now - there was no shortage

:53:17.:53:19.

of material competing for inclusion Doing his best to squeeze it

:53:20.:53:21.

all in - here's Stephen Walker... There was high drama at Stormont as

:53:22.:53:36.

the RHI controversy brought resignation and repercussions. I

:53:37.:53:40.

believe that today is the time to call a halt to the DUP's Ireland.

:53:41.:53:47.

I've no doubt that if the election proceeds, it would be a brutal

:53:48.:53:51.

election. The London and Dublin governments expect an election...

:53:52.:53:56.

The reality remains, the high probability remains that we are

:53:57.:54:00.

heading towards an election. An election is likely, and I say it as

:54:01.:54:05.

we move towards the end of the week. That scenario is now even more

:54:06.:54:09.

likely. In the political fallout there was an agreement that the

:54:10.:54:13.

bedroom tax was still off the table. I also say to the DUP that there

:54:14.:54:18.

will not be a bedroom tax... And there was a DUP adjournment as

:54:19.:54:24.

funding was restored to an Irish language bursary scheme. Sinn Fein

:54:25.:54:27.

are using this issue to distract from all of the other issues and I

:54:28.:54:34.

felt it was damage -- damaging to the Irish language...

:54:35.:54:36.

Stephen Walker looking back over a busy week.

:54:37.:54:38.

Now, it's time to hear from my guests of the day -

:54:39.:54:41.

Fionnuala O'Connor and Sam McBride...

:54:42.:54:44.

Welcome to the both of you. James Brokenshire is saying that it looks

:54:45.:54:50.

inevitable that we are heading towards an election. But there is a

:54:51.:54:54.

lot of business to get through the assembly tomorrow? It will be a

:54:55.:54:57.

momentous day at the assembly tomorrow, three items of business

:54:58.:55:02.

and any one of which would be pretty exceptional. They are all going to

:55:03.:55:06.

be pushed through in a late sitting, there is no time limit on the RHI

:55:07.:55:14.

law which the economy minister, I almost said the finance minister,

:55:15.:55:19.

Simon Hamilton, is bringing forward. It's the first time the assembly has

:55:20.:55:22.

had the chance to get stuck into this and it's a privilege for people

:55:23.:55:26.

to speak candidly and we might see revelations. Maybe not but will Sinn

:55:27.:55:31.

Fein turn up and support the legislation? Will they put a brake

:55:32.:55:35.

on the costs or so, is too late, we cannot put forward... Put through

:55:36.:55:39.

the assembly something that is so open to legal challenges at the last

:55:40.:55:44.

minute. This challenge to the Speaker, will they use a petition of

:55:45.:55:47.

concern to block it? I don't see great merit in them doing that. It's

:55:48.:55:52.

clear he's lost the confidence of the chamber regardless of whether

:55:53.:55:55.

they technically block the motion and of course, this whole issue of

:55:56.:55:59.

whether Sinn Fein will, at the last minute, in some way back down and

:56:00.:56:02.

put in the Deputy First Minister. It seems unlikely but the formal death

:56:03.:56:06.

knell for the executive will come if they do not do that. It's shaping up

:56:07.:56:13.

to be a hugely significant day in the hell, as sunset. A lot of

:56:14.:56:17.

business to get through and some people will certainly want to -- a

:56:18.:56:23.

significant day on the Hill. We will hear from a lot of politicians

:56:24.:56:27.

talking about important issues but all in the mouth of an election?

:56:28.:56:34.

That's right and it comes down to people who still believe that there

:56:35.:56:38.

is credibility and an institution on the Hill, if people can believe in

:56:39.:56:40.

anything momentous coming from storm -- from Stormont, it did not start

:56:41.:56:50.

with the financial scandal but started a long way back. The mood

:56:51.:56:55.

and the anger that Sinn Fein is channelling now and will exploit in

:56:56.:57:03.

an election is a long-running realisation that Unionists had not

:57:04.:57:06.

bought into power-sharing and will not play by the rules of the 1998

:57:07.:57:11.

agreement or the subsequent reworkings of the agreement, that

:57:12.:57:15.

there is no Unionist acceptance to work political power-sharing in a

:57:16.:57:20.

real way and Sinn Fein... I did not think that they would pull the plug.

:57:21.:57:23.

I thought that they could not, but they did and it came to the point

:57:24.:57:29.

where their people were telling them and the National community were

:57:30.:57:32.

telling them that they had no belief in Stormont or putting it back up

:57:33.:57:37.

again. You don't want to get into an argument about semantics but despite

:57:38.:57:40.

those concerns on that range of issues that you referred to,

:57:41.:57:44.

nonetheless, the train was kept on the rails. It was the spotlight on

:57:45.:57:49.

December the 2nd, it cast the light onto the RHI scandal and that is

:57:50.:57:53.

where the crisis erupted? Because Sinn Fein did believe that they had

:57:54.:57:56.

to stay in there because they believed it was there project and an

:57:57.:58:02.

all Ireland project and if they walked out of Stormont it would look

:58:03.:58:07.

bad in the cell. Martin McGuinness bit his tongue until he could not

:58:08.:58:15.

any more. It does not mean that they were clean or the way through but

:58:16.:58:18.

there may still be something to emerge but I do notice the word

:58:19.:58:23.

"Corruption", Naomi Long used it well and Martin McGuinness used it a

:58:24.:58:28.

few weeks back and Gerry Adams has used since. I think fashion fame

:58:29.:58:31.

must feel fairly confident that there is not anything about to

:58:32.:58:36.

emerge -- Sinn Fein. Which would damage their reputation in the last

:58:37.:58:40.

few years. They may feel they have to get out because the DUP will be

:58:41.:58:44.

more damaged again. There are fundamental issues for Sinn Fein,

:58:45.:58:48.

they had a bad election last year, losing one seat. A modest loss but

:58:49.:58:52.

it was nonetheless a loss. They did not really listen to their

:58:53.:58:57.

electorate, they did not really get anything but they are telling the

:58:58.:59:00.

electorate that they wanted gay marriage and the Irish language act,

:59:01.:59:04.

all of these things and these wearable DUP people did not give it

:59:05.:59:09.

to us. They did not negotiate... Because the DUP would not -- these

:59:10.:59:16.

horrible DUP people... They never saw the need to negotiate because

:59:17.:59:22.

they had a commanding majority... There's an element of political

:59:23.:59:26.

reality to the larger electoral fortune of the DUP but the nuclear

:59:27.:59:34.

option which Sinn Fein deployed was open to them seven months ago. Now

:59:35.:59:38.

they say that they would go back into talks process where if they do

:59:39.:59:43.

not get what they want there would not be an assembly. It is seven

:59:44.:59:47.

months ago... A quick word about what we saw in terms of the

:59:48.:59:51.

opposition parties, the SDLP said that they would work closely with

:59:52.:59:57.

the DUP, did you get a sense of a close working relationship between

:59:58.:00:01.

the two Russia as we get towards an election campaign... -- between the

:00:02.:00:08.

two? As we get towards an election campaign. Is it La La Land? Umm, no.

:00:09.:00:16.

I was struck by this fine performances from all three people.

:00:17.:00:21.

Philip Smith stuck with that, if they hopeless thing to reply to, but

:00:22.:00:26.

Nicola is shop on her feet and Naomi Long did well. But the difficulty is

:00:27.:00:33.

preparing new faces, the SDLP, with bright young people, changing

:00:34.:00:39.

towards Europe and they need that with James Brokenshire and, we will

:00:40.:00:40.

negotiate for you. Thank you to both Now it's back to Andrew.

:00:41.:00:44.

of you. Thanks to you both -

:00:45.:00:45.

now back to Andrew in London. Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump

:00:46.:00:49.

would tone things down after the American election

:00:50.:00:51.

campaign, they may have The period where he has been

:00:52.:01:02.

President-elect will make them think again. The inauguration is coming up

:01:03.:01:06.

on Friday. Never has the forthcoming

:01:07.:01:07.

inauguration of a president been In a moment, we'll talk

:01:08.:01:09.

to a man who knows Mr Trump But first, let's have a look

:01:10.:01:13.

at the press conference Mr Trump gave on Wednesday,

:01:14.:01:17.

in which he took the opportunity to rubbish reports that Russia has

:01:18.:01:19.

obtained compromising information You are attacking our

:01:20.:01:21.

news organisation. Can you give us a chance,

:01:22.:01:37.

you are attacking our news organisation, can you give us

:01:38.:01:42.

a chance to ask a question, sir? As far as Buzzfeed,

:01:43.:01:45.

which is a failing pile of garbage, writing it, I think they're

:01:46.:01:51.

going to suffer the consequences. Does anyone really

:01:52.:01:55.

believe that story? I'm also very much of

:01:56.:01:58.

a germaphobe, by the way. If Putin likes Donald Trump,

:01:59.:02:01.

guess what, folks, that's called The only ones that care about my tax

:02:02.:02:03.

returns are the reporters, OK? Do you not think the American

:02:04.:02:11.

public is concerned? The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first

:02:12.:02:26.

last conference. The Can will he change as President? Because he

:02:27.:02:28.

hasn't changed in the run-up to being inaugurated? I don't think he

:02:29.:02:33.

will commit he doesn't see any point in changing. Why would he change

:02:34.:02:36.

from the personality that just one, as he just said, I just one. All of

:02:37.:02:41.

the bleeding-heart liberals can wail and brush their teeth and say how

:02:42.:02:43.

ghastly that all this, Hillary should have won and so on, but he

:02:44.:02:48.

has got an incredible mandate. Remember, Trump has the House

:02:49.:02:51.

committee has the Senate, he will have the Supreme Court. He has

:02:52.:02:55.

incredible power right now. He doesn't have to listen to anybody. I

:02:56.:02:59.

spoke to him a couple of weeks ago specifically about Twitter, I asked

:03:00.:03:03.

him what the impact was of Twitter. He said, I have 60 million people

:03:04.:03:08.

following me on Twitter. I was able to bypass mainstream media, bypass

:03:09.:03:12.

all modern political convention and talk directly to potential voters.

:03:13.:03:17.

Secondly, I can turn on the TV in the morning, I can see a rival

:03:18.:03:20.

getting all of the airtime, and I can fire off a tweet, for free, as a

:03:21.:03:25.

marketing man he loves that, and, boom, I'm on the news agenda again.

:03:26.:03:29.

He was able to use that magnificently. Twitter to him didn't

:03:30.:03:33.

cost him a dollar. He is going to carry on tweeting in the last six

:03:34.:03:44.

weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump has never had an alcoholic drink a

:03:45.:03:48.

cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by the 70, he has incredible energy and

:03:49.:03:53.

he is incredibly competitive. At his heart, he is a businessman. If you

:03:54.:03:56.

look at him as a political ideologue, you completely missed the

:03:57.:04:02.

point of trouble. Don't take what he says literally, look upon it as a

:04:03.:04:04.

negotiating point that he started from, and try to do business with

:04:05.:04:08.

him as a business person would, and you may be presently surprised so

:04:09.:04:12.

pleasantly surprised. He treats the press and the media entirely

:04:13.:04:17.

differently to any other politician or main politician in that normally

:04:18.:04:24.

the politicians try to get the media off a particular subject, or they

:04:25.:04:28.

try to conciliate with the media. He just comes and punches the media in

:04:29.:04:31.

the nose when he doesn't like them. This could catch on, you know! You

:04:32.:04:38.

are absolutely right, for a start, nobody could accuse him of letting

:04:39.:04:44.

that victory go to his head. You know, he won't say, I will now be

:04:45.:04:47.

this lofty president. He's exactly the same as he was before. What is

:04:48.:04:51.

fascinating is his Laois and ship with the media. I haven't met, and

:04:52.:04:55.

I'm sure you haven't, met a party leader who is obsessed with the

:04:56.:04:59.

media. But they pretend not to be. You know, they state, oh, somebody

:05:00.:05:05.

told me about a column, I didn't read it. He is utterly transparent

:05:06.:05:12.

in his obsession with the media, he doesn't pretend. How that plays out,

:05:13.:05:16.

who knows? It's a completely different dynamic than anyone has

:05:17.:05:20.

seen by. Like he is the issue, he has appointed an unusual Cabinet,

:05:21.:05:25.

that you could criticise in many ways. Nearly all of them are

:05:26.:05:28.

independent people in their own right. A lot of them are wealthy,

:05:29.:05:33.

too. They have their own views. They might not like what he tweaked at

:05:34.:05:36.

3am, and he does have to deal with his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters,

:05:37.:05:41.

now the Defence Secretary, he might not like what's said about China at

:05:42.:05:47.

three in morning - general matters. This is what gets very conjugated.

:05:48.:05:51.

We cannot imagine here in our political system any kind of

:05:52.:05:54.

appointments like this. Using the wouldn't have a line-up of

:05:55.:05:57.

billionaires of the kind of background that he has chosen -- you

:05:58.:06:00.

simply wouldn't have. But that won't stop him saying and reading what he

:06:01.:06:05.

thinks. Maybe it will cause him some internal issues when the following

:06:06.:06:08.

day he has the square rigged with whatever they think. But he's going

:06:09.:06:13.

to press ahead. Are we any clearer in terms of policy. I know policy

:06:14.:06:20.

hasn't featured hugely in this campaign of 2016. Do we have any

:06:21.:06:23.

really clear idea what Mr Trump is hoping to achieve? He has had some

:06:24.:06:30.

consistent theme going back over 25 years. One is a deep scepticism

:06:31.:06:34.

about international trade and the kind of deals that America has been

:06:35.:06:37.

doing over that period. It has been so consistent that is has been hard

:06:38.:06:41.

to spin as something that you say during the course of a campaign of

:06:42.:06:44.

something to get elected. Ultimately, Piers is correct, he

:06:45.:06:48.

won't change. When he won the election committee gave a relatively

:06:49.:06:51.

magnanimous beach. I thought his ego had been sated and he had got what

:06:52.:06:56.

he wanted. He will end up governing as is likely eccentric New York

:06:57.:06:59.

liberal and everything will be fine. In the recent weeks it has come to

:07:00.:07:03.

my attention that that might not be entirely true!

:07:04.:07:06.

LAUGHTER It is a real test of the American

:07:07.:07:10.

system, the Texan bouncers, the foreign policy establishment which

:07:11.:07:15.

is about to have the orthodoxies disrupted -- the checks and

:07:16.:07:19.

balances. I think he has completely ripped up the American political

:07:20.:07:23.

system. Washington as we know it is dead. From his garage do things his

:07:24.:07:26.

way, he doesn't care, frankly, what any of us thinks -- Trump is going

:07:27.:07:33.

to do things his way. If he can deliver for the people who voted for

:07:34.:07:39.

him who fault this disenfranchised, -- who voted for him who felt this

:07:40.:07:44.

disenfranchised. They voted accordingly. They want to see jobs

:07:45.:07:48.

and the economy in good shape, they want to feel secure. They want to

:07:49.:07:52.

feel that immigration has been tightened. If Trump can deliver on

:07:53.:07:57.

those main theme for the rust belt communities of America, I'm telling

:07:58.:08:01.

you, he will go down as a very successful president. All of the

:08:02.:08:04.

offensive rhetoric and the argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it

:08:05.:08:07.

may be will be completely irrelevant. Let me finish with a

:08:08.:08:15.

parochial question. Is it fair to say quite well disposed to this

:08:16.:08:17.

country? And that he would like, that he's up for a speedy

:08:18.:08:19.

free-trade, bilateral free-trade you'll? Think we have to be sensible

:08:20.:08:26.

as the country. Come Friday, he is the president of the United States,

:08:27.:08:30.

the most powerful man and well. He said to me that he feels half

:08:31.:08:34.

British, his mum was born and raised in Scotland until the age of 18, he

:08:35.:08:37.

loves British, his mother used to love watching the Queen, he feels

:08:38.:08:41.

very, you know, I would roll out the red carpet for Trump, let him eat

:08:42.:08:46.

Her Majesty. The crucial point for us as a country is coming -- let him

:08:47.:08:52.

me to Her Majesty. If we can do a speedy deal within an 18 month

:08:53.:08:56.

period, it really sends a message that well but we are back in the

:08:57.:09:00.

game, that is a hugely beneficial thing for this country. Well, a man

:09:01.:09:04.

whose advisers were indicating that maybe he should learn a few things

:09:05.:09:11.

from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn. Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the

:09:12.:09:14.

Andrew Marr Show this morning. -- yes, indeed.

:09:15.:09:18.

If you don't win Copeland, and if you don't win

:09:19.:09:20.

Stoke-on-Trent Central, you're toast, aren't you?

:09:21.:09:21.

Our party is going to fight very hard in those elections,

:09:22.:09:26.

as we are in the local elections, to put those policies out there.

:09:27.:09:29.

It's an opportunity to challenge the Government on the NHS.

:09:30.:09:32.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on the chaos of Brexit.

:09:33.:09:34.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on the housing shortage.

:09:35.:09:36.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on zero-hours contracts.

:09:37.:09:39.

Is there ever a moment that you look in the mirror and think,

:09:40.:09:44.

you know what, I've done my best, but this might not be for me?

:09:45.:09:47.

I look in the mirror every day and I think,

:09:48.:09:49.

let's go out there and try and create a society where there

:09:50.:09:52.

are opportunities for all, where there aren't these terrible

:09:53.:09:54.

levels of poverty, where there isn't homelessness,

:09:55.:09:56.

where there are houses for all, and where young people aren't

:09:57.:09:59.

frightened of going to university because of the debts

:10:00.:10:01.

they are going to end up with at the end of their course.

:10:02.:10:04.

Mr Corbyn earlier this morning. Steve, would it be fair to say that

:10:05.:10:10.

the mainstream of the Labour Party has now come to the conclusion that

:10:11.:10:14.

they just have to let Mr Corbyn get on with it, that they are not going

:10:15.:10:17.

to try and influence what he does. They will continue to try and have

:10:18.:10:22.

their own views, but it's his show, it's up to him, if it's a mess, he

:10:23.:10:27.

has to live with it and we'll have clean hands? For now, yes. I think

:10:28.:10:31.

they made a mistake when he was first elected to start in some cases

:10:32.:10:33.

tweeting within seconds that it was going to be a disaster, this was

:10:34.:10:38.

Labour MPs. They made a complete mess of that attempted coup in the

:10:39.:10:41.

summer, which strengthened his position. And he did, it gave Corbyn

:10:42.:10:47.

the space with total legitimacy to say that part of the problem is,

:10:48.:10:51.

we're having this public Civil War. In keeping quiet, that disappeared

:10:52.:10:57.

as part of the explanation for why Labour and low in the polls. I think

:10:58.:11:02.

they are partly doing that. But they are also struggling, the so-called

:11:03.:11:07.

mainstream Labour MPs, to decide what the distinctive agenda is. It's

:11:08.:11:11.

one of the many differences with the 80s, where you had a group of people

:11:12.:11:15.

sure of what they believed in, they left to form the SDP. What's

:11:16.:11:19.

happening now is that they are leaving politics altogether. That is

:11:20.:11:23.

a crisis of social Democrats all across Europe, including the French

:11:24.:11:27.

Socialists, as we will find out later in the spring. Let Corbyn

:11:28.:11:35.

because then, that's the strategy. There is a weary and sometimes

:11:36.:11:37.

literal resignation from the moderates in the Labour Party. If

:11:38.:11:40.

you talk to them, they are no longer angry, they have always run out of

:11:41.:11:42.

steam to be angry about what's going on. They are just sort of tired and

:11:43.:11:45.

feel that they've just got to see this through now. I think the

:11:46.:11:49.

by-elections will be interesting. When Andrew Marr said, you're toast,

:11:50.:11:53.

and you? I thought, he's never posed! That was right. A quick

:11:54.:11:58.

thought from view? One thing Corbyn has in common with Trump is immunity

:11:59.:12:03.

to bad news. I think he can lose Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long

:12:04.:12:11.

as it is not a sequence of resignations and by-elections

:12:12.:12:12.

afterwards, resignations and by-elections

:12:13.:12:14.

afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20 Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy

:12:15.:12:17.

what. It may be more trouble if Labour loses the United trade union

:12:18.:12:23.

elections. We are in a period of incredible unpredictability

:12:24.:12:25.

generally in global politics. If you look at the way the next year plays

:12:26.:12:29.

out, if for example brags it was a disaster and it starts to unravel

:12:30.:12:33.

very quickly, Theresa May is attached to that, clearly label

:12:34.:12:36.

would have a great opportunity potentially disease that higher

:12:37.:12:40.

ground, and when Eddie the Tories -- Labour would have an opportunity. Is

:12:41.:12:45.

Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed him, what struck me was that he

:12:46.:12:50.

talked about being from, a laughable comparison, but when it is really

:12:51.:12:54.

laughable is this - Hillary Clinton, what were the things she stood for,

:12:55.:12:59.

nobody really knew? What does Trump stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn

:13:00.:13:03.

has the work-out four or five messages and bang, bang, bang. He

:13:04.:13:07.

could still be in business. Thank you for being with us.

:13:08.:13:09.

I'll be back at the same time next weekend.

:13:10.:13:12.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:13.:13:45.

The View holds politicians to account and we ask

:13:46.:13:48.

the questions that our audiences want answers to.

:13:49.:13:50.

We reflect what's happening in the political world but I think we also

:13:51.:13:54.

set the agenda in the interviews that we conduct on the programme.

:13:55.:13:59.

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