15/01/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

of the EU's single market and its customs union?

We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

Piers Morgan, a man who knows him well, joins us live.

We've heard plenty from the DUP and Sinn Fein in the past week.

Today the Ulster Unionists, SDLP and Alliance have their say

on what feels like the eve of a new election campaign.

And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

of the single market and customs union.

The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

and call for an end to free movement.

Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

answer to my question, you haven't answered it

the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

enact a controversial piece of legislation.

Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

you have an incomplete Leveson project.

I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

"Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

They get huge new protections from libel threats,

from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

The male cells around 22,000 each day...

There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

through the recognition setup that it has.

Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

since the Government launched its consultation

In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

And for that reason alone, it could take months before

a decision on what happens next is taken.

The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

was failing to work, was not delivering effective

regulation and the press were behaving in a way

which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

case we are going to have to take further measures,

The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

can. All right, thanks for being with us.

The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

At either level three, meaning major pressures,

or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

highly skilled doctor, looking after highly skilled doctor, looking after

patients from cradle to grave across the physical, psychological and

social, I am not an A doctor. I don't disagree with that, nobody is

saying that GPs are not working hard enough. You just did, actually,

about some of them. In some practices, what we need to see, it's

not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is advanced nurse practitioners,

pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily need to be all on the GPs. I think

advanced nurse practitioners are in short supply. Position associate or

go to hospital, -- physician associates. We have very few

trainees, junior doctors in general practice, unlike hospitals, which

tend to have some slack with the junior doctor community and

workforce. This isn't an argument, this is about saying, let's stop

looking at the National health system as a National hospital

system. GPs tomorrow will see about 1.3 million patients. That is a lot

of thoughtful. A lot of activity with no resources. If you wanted the

GPs to behave better, in your terms, when you allocated more money to

GPs, part of the reforms, because that's where it went, shouldn't you

have targeted it more closely to where they want to operate? That is

exactly what the Prime Minister is saying, extra funding is being made

available by GPs to extend hours and services. If certain GP practices

cannot do that, the money will follow the patient to where they

move onto. We have no doctors to do it. I was on a coach last week, the

coach driver stopped in the service station for an hour, they were

stopping for a rest. We cannot do it. Even if you gave us millions

more money, and thankfully NHS is recognising that we need a solution

through the five-day week, we haven't got the doctors to deliver

this. It would take a while to get them? That's my point, that's why we

need to be using all how care professional. Even if you got this

right, would it make a difference to what many regard as the crisis in

our hospitals? I think it would. If you look at patients, they just want

to go to a service that will address the problems. In Scotland for

example, pharmacists have their own patient list. Patients go and see

the pharmacists first. There are lots of conditions, for example if

you want anticoagulants, you don't necessarily need to see a doctor, a

pharmacist can manage that and free up the doctor in other ways. The

Prime Minister has said that if things do not change she is

threatening to reduce funding to doctors who do not comply. Can you

both agree, that is probably an empty threat, that's not going to

happen? I hope it's an empty threat. We're trying our best. People like

me in my profession, the seniors in our profession, are really trying to

pull up morale and get people into general practice, which is a

wonderful profession, absolutely wonderful place to be. But slapping

us off and telling us that we are lazy really doesn't help. I really

don't think anybody is doing that. We have run out of time, but I'm

certain that we will be back to the subject before this winter is out.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

It started with a financial scandal and looks set to end with Stormont

So just how damaged are the political

institutions by this crisis - and will an election

I'm joined by Alliance Leader, Naomi Long, the Ulster Unionists'

Philip Smith, and the SDLP's Nichola Mallon.

And with their thoughts on all the week's political dramas

are the Political Editor of the News Letter,

Sam McBride, and the columnist Fionnuala O'Connor...

So, despite James Brokenshire's offer of talks this weekend,

it still looks a near certainty that an Assembly election

The Secretary of State is expected to make that call

at 5 o'clock tomorrow - exactly a week after

Martin McGuinness resigned from his post as Deputy First

This is what Mr Brokenshire said to Andrew Marr

A clear indication and the increasing likelihood is that we are

moving towards an election. Obviously I would be considering the

position at that point in time, my statutory responsibility is to call

an election but that means there needs to be a campaign of 25 working

days. And would really encourage the parties themselves to think about

these big issues on how they conduct their campaign and how we can build

things back together again once it is concluded.

Well I'm joined now by Philip Smith from the Ulster Unionist Party,

Nichola Mallon from the SDLP and the Alliance

Welcome to you all. Philip Smith, your party leader said back in

October that if you vote for Mike, you get Colum, vote Colum and you

get Mike... How is the coming along? We are in a situation where the

competence and functionality of the DUP and Sinn Fein government...

There is a fork in the road and people are being given a clear

choice. Do they want more of the same? Do they want more dysfunction

or scandal? Or do they want real change for Northern Ireland? It's

every all challenge ahead and we are confident that we can provide the

auto that if government. Is that the Ulster Unionist Party as a package

providing the alternative government? Is that where you go to

the doorsteps with your big idea? We have a brand and what we are putting

forward to the people... What about vote Colum and get Mike and vice

versa? Has it gone away? We need an alternative. The DUP and Sinn Fein

have failed the people of Northern Ireland and the RHI scandal

highlights it up in lights. But what is the alternative? Is it the

opposition working together as a team and asking for people to vote

for the Ulster Unionist Party Party and the SDLP as a package? You've

abandoned what Mike Nesbitt said at the party conference? No... It

cannot be both! We are standing as the UUP. The SDLP and Nicola will

speak for her party, they are a party in their own right, we are

putting ourselves up as an alternative government. As someone

bringing the latest candidates in this election they move forward and

offer real experience, not career politicians with experience of

business and running organisations and professionals in the public and

private sector. Have relations between the UUP and SDLP broken down

as they appear to have broken down between Sinn Fein and the DUP?

Absolutely not, I do not think you can overestimate how dysfunctional

the relationship is between the DUP and Sinn Fein but at the party

conference, my party leader was very clear. We are two distinct political

parties and have different positions on a number of issues but where

there are areas of commonality we can work together. In the past

number of months we've shown in health and housing and property that

we can bring motions together and work together. But fundamentally, we

have shown we can work together based on respect, and I think that

is the fundamental difference but we will both go into this election... I

will stand as an SDLP candidate on and SDLP manifesto, Philip Smith and

his colleagues will be doing the same but afterwards, when we go into

negotiations, like every party we have a different position that can

we work with Ulster Unionist Party the Alliance crushed at yes, we can

work with any party. But I'm just trying to get a handle on what Mike

Nesbitt meant in an election when he said that. The SDLP and the UUP have

not had the knot. There are areas of commonality and consensus in some

issues surrounding health and housing and property, we will work

together... Would you like SDLP voters to transfer? Is that the kind

of thing that needs to happen to make the breakthrough you've been

telling us about? We will be asking voters to cast a vote and hold

accountable of the politicians before them, we will ask people,

please, don't be so disillusioned and frustrated and angry that you

stay at home because what you had in the last ten years isn't good enough

and you deserve better. That is the platform that we will stand on and

after the negotiations it is clear that we will be willing to work with

other parties and fundamental to that is the reconciliation project

and a relationship based on respect. That is something that has sadly and

damagingly been missing from the two parties in the executive. Naomi

Long, there's been a lot of talk about opposition parties working

together, where does the Alliance party fit into this at the moment?

What do you make of the two main opposition parties? Tell me if you

think I'm right, putting some distance between themselves in terms

of relationships? At the end of the day, when I took over as leader, I

said vote for Alliance and you get Alliance, that is the platform that

we go to elections on. This fallacy that has arisen, that in some way

opposition parties in the motor pool come together and form a grand

coalition, a big party, standing for the electorate, is undemocratic. I

have suffered at the hand of an electoral pact, I do not think they

are healthy for democracy but I do think that by working together on

practical issues we can increase the number of people who turn out and we

will encourage people who do that to come forward and do that and we will

transfer them to progressive politicians who want to make a

difference in Northern Ireland, that is how the PR system works and how

we will deliver change in the executive. In terms of opposition,

it does not matter if you are official or unofficial opposition,

the only difference is whether you get paid for it. We date but we are

still doing the job. We are still holding the government to account --

we do not. We can still challenge the DUP. We have seen DUP ministers

treating their ministries and public finances like it is a slush fund.

Sinn Fein have not abled them in that, as long as they also get their

cut. That is not acceptable. Now, both of them are trying to reframe

the election into an orange and green election when it is not about

that but about accountability and competence and about delivering for

the people of Northern Ireland. That is the pitch we are putting to

people when the election is called and what I believe people want to

see and there is every opportunity for change. I think we have to grasp

that. How do you, in the Alliance party, exploit division between the

two main parties who have failed to work in the government together in

the way that they said they would, otherwise we would not be in the

situation that we are in. While at the same time not injuring

cooperation and working towards a shared society which is at the heart

of your message? We are not out to exploit anything but put a positive

message and alternative in. The failure of the DUP and Sinn Fein to

make this executive function is written large and has collapsed

after seven months. The only executives which survived without

suspension are those in which there were Alliance ministers. If people

want to look at where competence and stability has come from, they can

trace it back to when Alliance was in government doing the job. We

could not go into government in the context of last May because when we

went and pointed out the very things that have unhinged the executive,

the lack of accountability and the abuse of the petition of concern,

the dirty dealings with coloured mirror truism.

-- the paramilitary. After this election, we would consider going to

any executive that is willing to front up to those issues and begin

dealing with them and reconciliation, deal with division

in society. The scandal of all of this? We are arguing about ?20

million a year for 20 years being squandered on RHI and the cost of

division, the most... The lowest estimate is ?100 million per year.

If that is not a scandal worth voting on, I don't know what is. The

DUP is making a great deal about the party not being compliant Unionists

or a rule over Unionists, taking a swipe at your party, how do you

persuade people you will stand for the union while wanting to work

closely with the SDLP? A party which has already reminded people that if

the devolution process does not work, then it favours the

reintroduction, or the introduction, of joint authority? The DUP showed

on Wednesday over 24 hours... I disagreed with the first decision

but fundamentally, this election is about trust and putting country

before party. He scandal of RHI, we are seeing those chickens coming

home to roost, in terms of the impact on having no budget, and the

terrible cuts likely to fall... This is not good to have an election

about RHI but we can see the main party shaping up to make it exactly

the same battle ground it always is. We've seen it over the last few

days? It suits their agenda but we are going to keep the focus on the

incompetence and dysfunction and scandal after scandal... But do you

generally believe that they will cast their vote based on issues like

RHI, competence to govern, rather than the old sectarian issues of

orange and green? For the first time, people are coming up to me in

shops and on the street and telling them about their anger at this and

they will change how they voted, and they will punish the DUP for their

incompetence. Whether it will come through a campaign, we will see but

there is anger there and I would say to people that if you are angry,

rightly so, channel it into voting for change. And bringing competent

governments that everyone can support in Northern Ireland. And

what may happen is people channel that anger by not voting whenever

the polls are opened? That is the big challenge for all of us. We all

know that there is public Angharad there. And we know that the people

are frustrated but we have to say, it does not always have to be like

this. You've hired incompetence over ten years -- anger out there. It

does not come up over night... With all due respect, if you've had that

over ten years, that's not good news for the STL P. Up until recently,

they were part of that administration? I would take anyone

on to talk about the SDLP's record in government. Despite immense

pressure and four Alex Attwood, who build more social housing than any

other minister, I will stand and have a debate with anyone about the

STL P's track record... But nationalist voters may think that at

the end of the day, they may fear that Unionists will still support

the DLP on voting day and they could hold their noses and vote for Sinn

Fein rather than risk supporting the STL P. People can be motivated out

of fear and that is why they deploy every election as a tactic but

people have been lied to. We were told that this was a wonderful

executive doing wonderful thing, but they murdered each other in their

manifestos in the last election, they brought the government

programme forward, and it was heralded as a success. Several weeks

ago they issued a statement about how they were doing a wonderful job

and then we find out that it was a sham and it has been dysfunctional.

They were trying to pull the wool over the public 's eyes. People have

woken up and taken notice. They have the chance to change it. There's

talk about Brexit which will be the backdrop for the whole election

campaign, it seems to be the case that Theresa May is shaping up to

support hard Brexit. Gray there are two things we can learn, the risk to

Northern Ireland's future and how we can do business and connect with

Europe and develop the economy. How we can protect those things that we

hold dear and how we protect the institutions. They are under threat

because of corruption and cronyism which is that the heart of

government but they are also under threat because our constitutional

position and relationships with the Republic of violent are altered

beyond the control and wishes of the electorate of Northern Ireland which

is a huge threat. If James Brokenshire wants to represent

Northern Ireland that the table when it comes to Brecht said, he has to

stop behaving like that -- the Republic of Ireland. However you

want to frame the election, it proves that it is possible to shock

even the most un-shockable people buy a result when you have the

ballot box on your side and people want to make a difference and this

time they have the opportunity to do so. We are very clear and we have

said, categorically to the secretary of state, that Article 50 cannot be

triggered in the absence of us having a government. We do not have

the faith... We do not know if the British Cabinet would agree with

that assessment but at the end of the day, London makes that call.

You've asked me for the SDLP views and that is what it is. What about

the Secretary of State and what did they say in response? He said that

he was listening and that was the level of commitment that we've got.

This is a huge legal challenge... Is huge political challenge. There is

no plan within this executive or from the Tory government. It's

another example of the dysfunctionality of the executive,

they've had months to put a Brexit plan in place and have totally

failed and that is why we need to see change and combatant and we need

a new government for Northern Ireland. Thank you all very much

indeed. Now - there was no shortage

of material competing for inclusion Doing his best to squeeze it

all in - here's Stephen Walker... There was high drama at Stormont as

the RHI controversy brought resignation and repercussions. I

believe that today is the time to call a halt to the DUP's Ireland.

I've no doubt that if the election proceeds, it would be a brutal

election. The London and Dublin governments expect an election...

The reality remains, the high probability remains that we are

heading towards an election. An election is likely, and I say it as

we move towards the end of the week. That scenario is now even more

likely. In the political fallout there was an agreement that the

bedroom tax was still off the table. I also say to the DUP that there

will not be a bedroom tax... And there was a DUP adjournment as

funding was restored to an Irish language bursary scheme. Sinn Fein

are using this issue to distract from all of the other issues and I

felt it was damage -- damaging to the Irish language...

Stephen Walker looking back over a busy week.

Now, it's time to hear from my guests of the day -

Fionnuala O'Connor and Sam McBride...

Welcome to the both of you. James Brokenshire is saying that it looks

inevitable that we are heading towards an election. But there is a

lot of business to get through the assembly tomorrow? It will be a

momentous day at the assembly tomorrow, three items of business

and any one of which would be pretty exceptional. They are all going to

be pushed through in a late sitting, there is no time limit on the RHI

law which the economy minister, I almost said the finance minister,

Simon Hamilton, is bringing forward. It's the first time the assembly has

had the chance to get stuck into this and it's a privilege for people

to speak candidly and we might see revelations. Maybe not but will Sinn

Fein turn up and support the legislation? Will they put a brake

on the costs or so, is too late, we cannot put forward... Put through

the assembly something that is so open to legal challenges at the last

minute. This challenge to the Speaker, will they use a petition of

concern to block it? I don't see great merit in them doing that. It's

clear he's lost the confidence of the chamber regardless of whether

they technically block the motion and of course, this whole issue of

whether Sinn Fein will, at the last minute, in some way back down and

put in the Deputy First Minister. It seems unlikely but the formal death

knell for the executive will come if they do not do that. It's shaping up

to be a hugely significant day in the hell, as sunset. A lot of

business to get through and some people will certainly want to -- a

significant day on the Hill. We will hear from a lot of politicians

talking about important issues but all in the mouth of an election?

That's right and it comes down to people who still believe that there

is credibility and an institution on the Hill, if people can believe in

anything momentous coming from storm -- from Stormont, it did not start

with the financial scandal but started a long way back. The mood

and the anger that Sinn Fein is channelling now and will exploit in

an election is a long-running realisation that Unionists had not

bought into power-sharing and will not play by the rules of the 1998

agreement or the subsequent reworkings of the agreement, that

there is no Unionist acceptance to work political power-sharing in a

real way and Sinn Fein... I did not think that they would pull the plug.

I thought that they could not, but they did and it came to the point

where their people were telling them and the National community were

telling them that they had no belief in Stormont or putting it back up

again. You don't want to get into an argument about semantics but despite

those concerns on that range of issues that you referred to,

nonetheless, the train was kept on the rails. It was the spotlight on

December the 2nd, it cast the light onto the RHI scandal and that is

where the crisis erupted? Because Sinn Fein did believe that they had

to stay in there because they believed it was there project and an

all Ireland project and if they walked out of Stormont it would look

bad in the cell. Martin McGuinness bit his tongue until he could not

any more. It does not mean that they were clean or the way through but

there may still be something to emerge but I do notice the word

"Corruption", Naomi Long used it well and Martin McGuinness used it a

few weeks back and Gerry Adams has used since. I think fashion fame

must feel fairly confident that there is not anything about to

emerge -- Sinn Fein. Which would damage their reputation in the last

few years. They may feel they have to get out because the DUP will be

more damaged again. There are fundamental issues for Sinn Fein,

they had a bad election last year, losing one seat. A modest loss but

it was nonetheless a loss. They did not really listen to their

electorate, they did not really get anything but they are telling the

electorate that they wanted gay marriage and the Irish language act,

all of these things and these wearable DUP people did not give it

to us. They did not negotiate... Because the DUP would not -- these

horrible DUP people... They never saw the need to negotiate because

they had a commanding majority... There's an element of political

reality to the larger electoral fortune of the DUP but the nuclear

option which Sinn Fein deployed was open to them seven months ago. Now

they say that they would go back into talks process where if they do

not get what they want there would not be an assembly. It is seven

months ago... A quick word about what we saw in terms of the

opposition parties, the SDLP said that they would work closely with

the DUP, did you get a sense of a close working relationship between

the two Russia as we get towards an election campaign... -- between the

two? As we get towards an election campaign. Is it La La Land? Umm, no.

I was struck by this fine performances from all three people.

Philip Smith stuck with that, if they hopeless thing to reply to, but

Nicola is shop on her feet and Naomi Long did well. But the difficulty is

preparing new faces, the SDLP, with bright young people, changing

towards Europe and they need that with James Brokenshire and, we will

negotiate for you. Thank you to both Now it's back to Andrew.

of you. Thanks to you both -

now back to Andrew in London. Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump

would tone things down after the American election

campaign, they may have The period where he has been

President-elect will make them think again. The inauguration is coming up

on Friday. Never has the forthcoming

inauguration of a president been In a moment, we'll talk

to a man who knows Mr Trump But first, let's have a look

at the press conference Mr Trump gave on Wednesday,

in which he took the opportunity to rubbish reports that Russia has

obtained compromising information You are attacking our

news organisation. Can you give us a chance,

you are attacking our news organisation, can you give us

a chance to ask a question, sir? As far as Buzzfeed,

which is a failing pile of garbage, writing it, I think they're

going to suffer the consequences. Does anyone really

believe that story? I'm also very much of

a germaphobe, by the way. If Putin likes Donald Trump,

guess what, folks, that's called The only ones that care about my tax

returns are the reporters, OK? Do you not think the American

public is concerned? The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first

last conference. The Can will he change as President? Because he

hasn't changed in the run-up to being inaugurated? I don't think he

will commit he doesn't see any point in changing. Why would he change

from the personality that just one, as he just said, I just one. All of

the bleeding-heart liberals can wail and brush their teeth and say how

ghastly that all this, Hillary should have won and so on, but he

has got an incredible mandate. Remember, Trump has the House

committee has the Senate, he will have the Supreme Court. He has

incredible power right now. He doesn't have to listen to anybody. I

spoke to him a couple of weeks ago specifically about Twitter, I asked

him what the impact was of Twitter. He said, I have 60 million people

following me on Twitter. I was able to bypass mainstream media, bypass

all modern political convention and talk directly to potential voters.

Secondly, I can turn on the TV in the morning, I can see a rival

getting all of the airtime, and I can fire off a tweet, for free, as a

marketing man he loves that, and, boom, I'm on the news agenda again.

He was able to use that magnificently. Twitter to him didn't

cost him a dollar. He is going to carry on tweeting in the last six

weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump has never had an alcoholic drink a

cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by the 70, he has incredible energy and

he is incredibly competitive. At his heart, he is a businessman. If you

look at him as a political ideologue, you completely missed the

point of trouble. Don't take what he says literally, look upon it as a

negotiating point that he started from, and try to do business with

him as a business person would, and you may be presently surprised so

pleasantly surprised. He treats the press and the media entirely

differently to any other politician or main politician in that normally

the politicians try to get the media off a particular subject, or they

try to conciliate with the media. He just comes and punches the media in

the nose when he doesn't like them. This could catch on, you know! You

are absolutely right, for a start, nobody could accuse him of letting

that victory go to his head. You know, he won't say, I will now be

this lofty president. He's exactly the same as he was before. What is

fascinating is his Laois and ship with the media. I haven't met, and

I'm sure you haven't, met a party leader who is obsessed with the

media. But they pretend not to be. You know, they state, oh, somebody

told me about a column, I didn't read it. He is utterly transparent

in his obsession with the media, he doesn't pretend. How that plays out,

who knows? It's a completely different dynamic than anyone has

seen by. Like he is the issue, he has appointed an unusual Cabinet,

that you could criticise in many ways. Nearly all of them are

independent people in their own right. A lot of them are wealthy,

too. They have their own views. They might not like what he tweaked at

3am, and he does have to deal with his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters,

now the Defence Secretary, he might not like what's said about China at

three in morning - general matters. This is what gets very conjugated.

We cannot imagine here in our political system any kind of

appointments like this. Using the wouldn't have a line-up of

billionaires of the kind of background that he has chosen -- you

simply wouldn't have. But that won't stop him saying and reading what he

thinks. Maybe it will cause him some internal issues when the following

day he has the square rigged with whatever they think. But he's going

to press ahead. Are we any clearer in terms of policy. I know policy

hasn't featured hugely in this campaign of 2016. Do we have any

really clear idea what Mr Trump is hoping to achieve? He has had some

consistent theme going back over 25 years. One is a deep scepticism

about international trade and the kind of deals that America has been

doing over that period. It has been so consistent that is has been hard

to spin as something that you say during the course of a campaign of

something to get elected. Ultimately, Piers is correct, he

won't change. When he won the election committee gave a relatively

magnanimous beach. I thought his ego had been sated and he had got what

he wanted. He will end up governing as is likely eccentric New York

liberal and everything will be fine. In the recent weeks it has come to

my attention that that might not be entirely true!

LAUGHTER It is a real test of the American

system, the Texan bouncers, the foreign policy establishment which

is about to have the orthodoxies disrupted -- the checks and

balances. I think he has completely ripped up the American political

system. Washington as we know it is dead. From his garage do things his

way, he doesn't care, frankly, what any of us thinks -- Trump is going

to do things his way. If he can deliver for the people who voted for

him who fault this disenfranchised, -- who voted for him who felt this

disenfranchised. They voted accordingly. They want to see jobs

and the economy in good shape, they want to feel secure. They want to

feel that immigration has been tightened. If Trump can deliver on

those main theme for the rust belt communities of America, I'm telling

you, he will go down as a very successful president. All of the

offensive rhetoric and the argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it

may be will be completely irrelevant. Let me finish with a

parochial question. Is it fair to say quite well disposed to this

country? And that he would like, that he's up for a speedy

free-trade, bilateral free-trade you'll? Think we have to be sensible

as the country. Come Friday, he is the president of the United States,

the most powerful man and well. He said to me that he feels half

British, his mum was born and raised in Scotland until the age of 18, he

loves British, his mother used to love watching the Queen, he feels

very, you know, I would roll out the red carpet for Trump, let him eat

Her Majesty. The crucial point for us as a country is coming -- let him

me to Her Majesty. If we can do a speedy deal within an 18 month

period, it really sends a message that well but we are back in the

game, that is a hugely beneficial thing for this country. Well, a man

whose advisers were indicating that maybe he should learn a few things

from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn. Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the

Andrew Marr Show this morning. -- yes, indeed.

If you don't win Copeland, and if you don't win

Stoke-on-Trent Central, you're toast, aren't you?

Our party is going to fight very hard in those elections,

as we are in the local elections, to put those policies out there.

It's an opportunity to challenge the Government on the NHS.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on the chaos of Brexit.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on the housing shortage.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on zero-hours contracts.

Is there ever a moment that you look in the mirror and think,

you know what, I've done my best, but this might not be for me?

I look in the mirror every day and I think,

let's go out there and try and create a society where there

are opportunities for all, where there aren't these terrible

levels of poverty, where there isn't homelessness,

where there are houses for all, and where young people aren't

frightened of going to university because of the debts

they are going to end up with at the end of their course.

Mr Corbyn earlier this morning. Steve, would it be fair to say that

the mainstream of the Labour Party has now come to the conclusion that

they just have to let Mr Corbyn get on with it, that they are not going

to try and influence what he does. They will continue to try and have

their own views, but it's his show, it's up to him, if it's a mess, he

has to live with it and we'll have clean hands? For now, yes. I think

they made a mistake when he was first elected to start in some cases

tweeting within seconds that it was going to be a disaster, this was

Labour MPs. They made a complete mess of that attempted coup in the

summer, which strengthened his position. And he did, it gave Corbyn

the space with total legitimacy to say that part of the problem is,

we're having this public Civil War. In keeping quiet, that disappeared

as part of the explanation for why Labour and low in the polls. I think

they are partly doing that. But they are also struggling, the so-called

mainstream Labour MPs, to decide what the distinctive agenda is. It's

one of the many differences with the 80s, where you had a group of people

sure of what they believed in, they left to form the SDP. What's

happening now is that they are leaving politics altogether. That is

a crisis of social Democrats all across Europe, including the French

Socialists, as we will find out later in the spring. Let Corbyn

because then, that's the strategy. There is a weary and sometimes

literal resignation from the moderates in the Labour Party. If

you talk to them, they are no longer angry, they have always run out of

steam to be angry about what's going on. They are just sort of tired and

feel that they've just got to see this through now. I think the

by-elections will be interesting. When Andrew Marr said, you're toast,

and you? I thought, he's never posed! That was right. A quick

thought from view? One thing Corbyn has in common with Trump is immunity

to bad news. I think he can lose Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long

as it is not a sequence of resignations and by-elections

afterwards, resignations and by-elections

afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20 Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy

what. It may be more trouble if Labour loses the United trade union

elections. We are in a period of incredible unpredictability

generally in global politics. If you look at the way the next year plays

out, if for example brags it was a disaster and it starts to unravel

very quickly, Theresa May is attached to that, clearly label

would have a great opportunity potentially disease that higher

ground, and when Eddie the Tories -- Labour would have an opportunity. Is

Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed him, what struck me was that he

talked about being from, a laughable comparison, but when it is really

laughable is this - Hillary Clinton, what were the things she stood for,

nobody really knew? What does Trump stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn

has the work-out four or five messages and bang, bang, bang. He

could still be in business. Thank you for being with us.

I'll be back at the same time next weekend.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

The View holds politicians to account and we ask

the questions that our audiences want answers to.

We reflect what's happening in the political world but I think we also

set the agenda in the interviews that we conduct on the programme.